welcome back man thank you how are you today I'm [Music] good I forgot how tiring it is to to fly around and and play shows and so I'm recovering a little bit but I feel good man good yeah well it's not lost on any true fan that you made a conscious
decision to return and and present us and gift us with music and and that would have been enough you know not every artist chooses to do anything after that these days you don't have to get into the story a little bit as much
as you'd like to How Did you sort of like structure this return Beyond just the desire to make music how did you sort of feel when you started facing down the other stuff that you had to call time on which is this us talking traveling the shows the work stuff not the not the inner work but the external work little by little like Brick by Brick you know it's like I think when something feels off it's not always about just like cutting it and thr
throwing it away it's just about like kind of little by little figuring out what feels off about it and I think it that really it really the external really is a representation of the internal so it's like what what was off about the way I was you know working within this industry and how processing yeah and I think even just like yeah among myself and like the people I work with just creating an environment that was rooted in honesty
and just like transparency and the more important thing was the moment not the outcome of the product and I think for me I I kind of realized like life is happening right now it's it's not something I'm trying to get to in the
future where I'm like you know when I get to this this is going to be the kind of Lifestyle I want to have and the kind of life I want to be inside of it's it's here right now so I was like if I don't try to change it to make it what feels
you know honest for me it be further away when you wake up exactly you know yeah so how old are you now Sean can I ask 26 26 wow so you were really coming to terms with this in your earlys which is not to try to sort of create a any
tradition to that decision but that's pretty ahead of schedule I mean most people spend their 20s kind of chasing whatever that is and and ignoring the moment yeah and then arriving at some Milestone at some point and going okay
where do I stand you obviously had to figure that out pretty early in your life you know I I actually hear that a lot from like people that people I've worked with and people who are older than me 10 20 years older than me you
know have like made a point of coming up to me to say like hey like what you're doing is important I'm 20 years down the line and I'm doing it now and I wish I did it then um and you know people will come up to me and like tears will start
welling up in their eyes when they say that to me and it's it's very um obvious that it's a big deal to them that I'm doing it at a young age cuz we see young people struggle truth is with maturity you get to take a look at the people who
are coming up behind you and and it doesn't get easier it never has even more access more efficiency more tools it doesn't make it any easier in fact a lot of times it even makes it harder to navigate through the big things easier
on the micro things dayto day easier to get from A to B in your car harder to get from a Tob in your life and so I think it does really resonate with people when some maturity kicks in and you go well thanks for taking that that
step at this point in your life especially when you start having kids and stuff exactly man I think it's uh it is a setting myself up for the future but it's also like I I just have gotten to the point in my life where not
I'm like I'm T I'm tired of of not being in an authentic State you know not that I was always putting a show on or performing but I think when I was younger it just always felt like there was a pleasing of everyone there was a
pleasing of you know even everyone here today at any interview at any moment anyone who was in the room there was a pleasing and I'm just kind of gotten to the point now where I'm like you know I'm just going to be relaxed and like be
myself and like what that outcome is is probably going to be the best outcome for me and if that means I'm getting booted out of the industry and booted out of this club who could do that who has the right to do that who is that
person by the way that we're all so scared of that's going to walk on the door hey Sean time up get out of here like it's so good there is I mean there isn't I think it's it's actually it's ourselves actually if there's one person
who's going to do it it's it's ourselves let's get deep for two seconds the psychology the r industry has done a very good job of reflecting our best self back to ourselves but also our biggest fears back to ourselves which is
that you're not good enough unless we tell you you're good enough yeah they give you your highs and your lows but nothing in between correct there's some control there and or traditionally there has been I see I see that less and less
now because I see the expectations Young Artists have from the industry have lessened so dramatically they don't search for answers anymore they're like I've made a decision to make this my life and I'll just do it and it would
either happen this way or that way but it'll happen whatever way but it's no one's going to come in here and explain that to me whereas you're on the tail end of that change feel like when you came in as a young person it was still
structured and this isn't a bash in the label system this isn't a bash in IND you're talking about this right now to be honest because I think yeah you're so right like there is a a huge difference just in the way that artists Young Artists think today versus when I started you know like no one's greeting them at the point of arrival with a with a with a sign with their name on it and a record deal and all these promises it
doesn't exist like that anymore they're like oh no I'll just take my own steps and I think that's scary and and um and also just the truth you know like it will I mean it's Freedom it's freedom for for everyone you know it's the big
question every artist will have to ask themselves at some point of the Becca success or otherwise UPF front how much do you really care how much do you want to do it how could you have known at 15 when you were just like talented and
possibly talented and people were gra gravitated towards that Talent did you really have a chance to ask yourself that big this is a question ask yourself that question then um I I don't want to take away the autonomy of my 15-year-old
self because I think he was he was pretty aware of what he was doing um but no I think to a degree like I had no idea what I was getting myself into and it was just it was almost like you would be an idiot to say no to anything
at that point um and I would never change the past and it got me where I am today but it feels really good to be in the driver's seat of my own life at this point and to just be conscious of my decisions and who I'm speaking to and
who I'm giving my energy to and um yeah it's it's special and a lot of that I'm I'm not blind to the fact that so much of the ability to do and be and act and move how I want comes to comes because of the freedom that the last 10
years of working so hard has given me you know even financially just to be able to feel secure enough to like be like okay you know what I don't have to be grinding I can I'm actually okay and I know that not everybody has that most
people don't have that stability and that changes a lot inside of our mind when it comes to living in our truth you know yeah I mean that's a that's a beautiful and self-aware statement um but you have to you have to you have to
access that freedom mhm you have to actually stop the grind and realize you have it yeah to be able to enjoy it and rebuild through it yeah when we really got some time the last time it was some years ago it was really knocking on the door of the pandemic and it was around an album called wonder which to me I mean the cover said it all it was facing fears and diving in the ocean with your arms wide open and being open to
everything um it felt like a milestone at the time in anyone's life and uh and then you know quarantine happened and things kicked in and eventually you came to a different conclusion I've never really had a chance to ask you sort of
what changed between the day that we sat down and wonder and the moment when you realize that you know what you need to go back and do some some new self assessment it's nice as talk to you cuz you have such a nice history of of of
artists and well we have history too yeah I mean you really remember and I think at 26 like looking back at at that guy um he was headed down a trajectory that he believed was the only trajectory for him like he he saw it it had to go this
way right that was the question it has to do this right it has to get bigger right it has to be more Grand right um because if it doesn't then it's getting smaller and if it's getting smaller then I'm going the wrong
way yeah and I'm disappearing and everything's disappearing and the whole thing is falling apart it's crazy when you have everything you ever dreamed of right yeah you've got the success and you've got the music and you got your
friends and colleagues and and you've got the girl and you've got everything everyone's like You' got it all but no one talks about the pressure that comes with having that and what happens if it starts to go away yeah and what does
that mean about you and I think I just had no idea what life consist I didn't know what what life really was outside of being a musician and touring and making an album and promoting the album and touring and making an album
promoting the album like for 10 years and I had no idea what it was like to go to like a farmers market or to go to a show for the first time I remember I went to the Hollywood Bowl with my friend for the first time we like waited
in line and I was like is this what it's like people get really excited like people are excited right now by the way that's not a really a very realistic description of what it's really like cuz most people are having hampers with
champagne and cheese and things is this what concerts are really like no Sean the Hollywood Bow is not what concerts are really like it's not at all this is the difference between a life created in A Life That's waiting for you right is
that a good way to put it that's so that's so well put I think it's really scary to recognize that you are in control of your life to a degree I mean there are things we out of control but to recognize that like you are the
person who is um creating your future is extremely intimidating because it's there's a lot of responsibility there um but it's also the most beautiful thing in the world you know cuz once you realize that you're like okay so what is
it that I that I want you know and for me what I wanted was just a greater sense of home a greater sense of diversity in my life like more eggs in more baskets not all eggs in one basket um because the reality is that I think
as an artist or in any profession you will fail you will do something wrong people won't like everything you do there will be failure there and if your entire identity is wrapped up in success success of that kind of identity you die
with the idea I've noticed that like as I've started to build like my family life my friend life my my actual physical home and like put things in a home that I love and um the idea of failure in terms of my
music and my art um is just way less scary to me I'm actually I'm not as bothered by it as I used to be we're going to all roads lead to This brilliant new album self-titled in some sense sha start to finish 11 original songs a very well-known
important song that you've recorded your way to finish there's a couple of Beats along the way we're going to hit and you go as deep as you want we're going to start with the tough one and then we're going to get into the fun one the tough
one is the moment when you realize in order to access that freedom and and to redefine what life is you have to make a clean and very hard break from the life that you're in yeah and that is the tough decision of like tours off
promotion isn't a word in my life for the foreseeable future and I have to figure out how I now build a life for myself being recognizable and somebody who didn't get to deliver on the promise that I made to myself to my colleagues and to others and it's a rare situation where we have someone who's has presence of mind and and has has come through the other side of that to be able to look back on that for the for the for the good experiences
and the tough ones and I think it's just a good thing to if you're willing to to reflect for other people who have to make those tough decisions and are scared yeah of that moment yeah what was it like when you when you had to pull
the tour absolutely terrifying it was terrifying um I've done a lot of therapy over the last couple years and the two kind of reoccurring themes and one of and one that really resonates with me is just that nobody gets to go through this
world without being hurt or hurting others it doesn't mean we're consciously trying to hurt people it's just a byproduct of living life and D letting down and being L down is gravitational it's Gra ational exactly it's it's part
of existing um in our truth and others existing in theirs and um I think at that point I had no prior experience of letting people down it was actually always the opposite it was giving everyone what they wanted at all times
and discovering that that was a great thing people really liked me because of that you know and I and I really I dove into the deep end with a big one you know and um it took me a long long time to process that but ultimately doing
that and it's so hard when you're on the cusp of making a giant decision whether it's you know ending a relationship or quitting a job or anything of the sorts like that to trust that that's headed into a better Direction in that regard do you
feel even looking back on it now like you have a choice it was the greatest gift I've ever given myself I gave myself a life um and actually the best part about that is that what it did did was it taught me that the next time I'm
standing at the Crossroad between choosing something in my truth or doing what would make everyone else happy I have this kind of reference point hey man last time you did that things worked out well last time you did that things
worked out um and it's just powerful how that happens choosing yourself just ends up becoming this like easier thing to do as you do it more so where did loneliness find you then you you say goodbye to all the all the chosen family
you take on the road the dozens and dozens of people who travel with you to ensure at your best every night this is around the same time I don't know maybe my timeline's off but your relationship with starts to come to a natural
conclusion as to what it is it redefines itself yeah so this thing that you're craving to some degree subconsciously which is which is a design an an opportunity to be on your own to redesign life yes Is Here Yeah so how
did it find you completely just messy it was just Mayhem you know there there's not like a aha moment I didn't wake up the I'll tell you what after I canceled the tour I woke up the next day it was crazy timing I was in Toronto and there
was a Countrywide um cellular kind of cut so all everyone's phones were down like The Purge so yeah it was it was insane I've never experienced in my life so I go to pick up my phone to see the Mayhem how much people hate you
basically and I realized it says SOS and I'm like so I have no and there's one text on my phone from the night before I fell asleep it's my mom and she says I love you babe sleep well so I wake up and I see one text I love you babe B
sleep well nothing else SOS and I go and I sit in the park outside of my condo and I'm drinking a coffee and there's birds around and I'm like still here I'm still here things are still happening just that sense of like okay so that's
cool technology conspires to allow you some space in order to be able to get a little bit further ahead from this really life-changing decision and little perspective there but at some point everyone's going to go about their
business yeah the phone is going to stop ringing yes and it did and people are going to give you what you asked for which is to leave me alone with I want the yin and the Yang if it existed was it all Yang it was it was both it it was
completely you know I think there was a good period of time where I was just no one really tells you that on the other side of making a huge decision it's not clear as day it's not like you wake up the next day and you're
like now I know everything I'm going to do in life it's like okay all right job done I'm ready done the next day yeah and then you're like there's still more to do and um I was just in the the dark and I think I was in the dark I call it
the dark because it felt like all I could see were my next five steps for a long time and I started to realize like if I would focus on anything further than five steps I would just fall into a depression because there was nothing
there was nothing there it was it was uh too much yeah so yeah it was the next five steps and I did that for about half a year and then I remember very clearly there was one day I was like in my house and I was here in La you know why the hell did I move to LA like I'm not someone supposed to live to in La by the way this is the place where everyone's looking left and right the whole time and you just decided to put blinkers on
go and I'm there and I'm I'm like in my backyard and I'm I guess I'm I bought a barbecue and I'm like having a little barbecue and I look around my friends there and he has like his three kids there they're running around the
backyard and there's like some people in the kitchen and I kind of like you know I just got a table like so it kind of looks like a home there's a candle lit and I realize okay it's happening like the thing is happening yeah okay well life's
happening now and uh it was like six months of darkness just to get to that little moment of like okay this is that thing this is that that feeling of home that feeling of friends and dude you just unlocked the great philosophical and istic Crossroad the touch point that all great new zealanders recognize at a young age which is that life begins with a Barbie it's the truth life begins with a good sear Ste and it ends there doesn't get better
than that mate you can try everything and it gets you back there cold one and that's good all right I'm glad you're laughing let's get into the fun stuff so I mean we stayed in touch a little bit off the Record cuz we do I'm not and I
would never ever intrude in in in this this cuz this is good work for you and and I care about you're a buddy but I'm never going to be like you okay yeah but every now and then we touch bass over something and we check in and stuff and
you seem to be on the right path and then and then the trail went really cold and I'm listening back to this album now and I'm realizing you obviously went traveling and you obviously threw yourself into some some unknowns is that
fair to say for sure yeah so this is where the fun stuff begins cuz you're like okay I have the freedom now the phone doesn't ring I'm comfortable with the phone not ringing so let me go somewhere where the phone can't even
find me yeah where did you go I went a few I mean I went in I was in Hawaii for a while I went to Costa Rica for a while um you went where all the lay lines are huh EXA don't you dude you tell me a bether you Bingo my bingo card is full
the fact that L lines made it into this conversation is a good sign I'm all about it um yeah and uh I went to Africa with my family is that where the mountain was the mountain was in Kawaii in Kawaii well that's where the mountains are have
you've been there obious oh Hawaii man it's the only place on Earth I get anxious leaving yeah I know cuz like my body and my heart and my spirit is saying why would you leave yeah what's coming up out of the ocean what's coming from the mountains when you get to the perfect place yeah it's real that's why I love that song mountain so much because me too the idea of of the intangible being not only create disbelief but almost a sort of mockery
of sorts yeah is ignoring the fundamental magic of life which is that is to say that we know everything whereas go go to Kawaii and really try to understand why you feel a certain way it's magic imagine knowing thinking you
knew everything how miserable would that be yeah you'd have to run for office surely you'd have to run for office what was that experience was it is it as specific as it is in the song no it's more specific good can we go there yeah
I mean there was a there's a few topics in that song there's there's three in particular there three in particular start with number one which is the experience itself you had on the mountain I don't know I think if anyone has ever gone into deep deep nature like I'm talking like you're out there um about after 3 4 hours of being out there you start to realize time slows down and things start to feel just different you know you're not there's
not a bunch of electronics around you blasting frequencies at you and you calm down and and you feel you feel at ease there's less anxiety um and then if anyone out there has ever taken psychedelics which I'm sure a lot
a lot of you guys out there have you know what that does too you know and so mix the two and um with intention um which is not for everybody but for me you said it all with intention with intention self- awareness your experience is is medicine you know and
for me I really experienced whether it was something that was being created in my mind or something that wasn't um or whether that the same thing um I really experienced a sensation of God and a sensation of self um
whether they're the same thing or not doesn't really matter um and I think from that moment actually everything else in this life all of the semantics that we talk about all the time that are very real and hold a lot of Merit they just became less
important to me because I had this kind of uh root of self well everything comes back to just me with me and and how I feel in relation to myself am I close to my own truth a far from that without going into the exact details of it
leaving that mountain that day uh gave me something I've always wanted which was um a sense of security that no success could ever provide me no relationship could ever provide me it was just uh security with myself and uh
a lot changed after that you know cuz when you're not chasing something you let go and then start then it almost feels like things are starting to appear cuz you let go yeah and uh that was kind of what I was writing about and I think
for me it was really getting to the point of recognizing like it doesn't really matter what people believe or what people feel about what happened because really what matters is is I I saw what I saw and I felt what I felt
and yeah I love how knowing the song is as well because at some point you have to go back to life right there are people who go to Kawai and stay in Kawai they wouldn't write that song they would they would stay in the improbable sure
but you've come back to LA you're recording a song or wherever you're recording it and so unfortunately and probably fortunately you now have the two sides of the coin again which the experience that stays with you and the
reality that you choose to come back to yeah and those two things require some mutual understanding and in the song it's they need to they need to have a relationship they need to understand that like there's going to be people who are going to be like Sean have you lost youring mind yeah oh and there were in the best way man I really think I I lost the part of my mind that cared too much about what everyone else was thinking um
let's get to the Second Story how would you describe that in the mountain I think the second story was just more so writing about you know people's and the media's desire to exploit relationships you know relationships are just hard and
confusing as they are and I think one thing I really noticed is that being a man and I I'm not saying this for any sort of points or anything but it this is the truth um being a man in a relationship with a woman publicly it's
very obvious that the woman woman is just 10 times more attacked um in every way um whether that's how they look or how they speak or what they do and I think as I've gotten older I've just recognized more and more the reality of
that and I think you know I was in a relationship with someone and just seeing the way the media was kind of portraying her uh it was just ridiculous it was like nobody even knows knows this person nobody even knows the relationship that
we we share and as someone who doesn't really ever get caught up in that narrative it puts you and whoever you're with in a really tough position because your natural instinct is to want to defend somebody yeah but that is just Chum in the water for sharks they want that and that's what I've learned over the over the last little while and yeah it was very simple you know like there people were just like he's joined a cult he's you know
whatever it is and well because it took a photo of you walking across some rocks and some Crocs with a with a singlet on it's like and you just look like anyone else who's out there has anyone ever looked at [Laughter] themselves I mean would I wear Crocs no that's not for me not for me to say we've all got to wear something on the Rocks you know what I mean man it's just like you know and so just addressing that and just but really Sean Crocs
anyway we I digress but it's fine we can move I don't even know if they were I don't think I've ever wore Crocs your mind that's my my gotcha not going for your relationship I'm going for your footwe very Zan so that was that was
that man it was just and I I loved this phrase that way kept coming through it was just like no matter what you call it no matter what you say there's all these ways of defining it and putting it in a box and calling it bad and calling it
good and right and wrong it really doesn't matter because I feel this you know and this the phrase of so call it what you want was extreme empowering thing for me you know um cuz I've spent a lot of years um being hurt by what people call it and
being confused by what people call it because it's very it's very interesting and this will lead us into the third part of of the song humans we're we're pretty F we're pretty fragile you know it's it's easy
to speak truth actually I wouldn't I wouldn't even call it easy it's easier and still difficult to speak your truth with one other human who has their opinions on you two harder three harder for harder but when you have hundreds of thousands if not millions of people projecting their opinion of who they think you are and why they think you're that onto you the human brain is fragile so I've had times where I've been reading what people think
about me and it's gotten to the point where I'm like do is that maybe that is true and not me like maybe maybe what they're saying is maybe because I do I say it like that or I sit like that that means that about me and it's sad because I think about little Shawn like 15 16y old Shawn who is like just trying to do his best job and has no idea no one told him hey dude like you're in for one because having hundreds of thousands of people daily
tell you what they think about you it's going to be really intense on the psyche it's going to mess you up a little bit um which by the way if you're an artist and you're you know 15 years old and you're getting started right now like if
there's one thing I could tell you it's protect yourself from social media protect yourself from the masses and what they think about you can I add that you should also acknowledge that you are one of the most sensitive souls and a
sensitive experience and that that's why people say why you know why do you keep doing what you're doing or like often you know you don't call people out on things and I and I'm like because you don't understand you don't speak the
language of the Arts and if you do if you understand the language the artists is trying to explain and I I know it's a bold statement but I understand their language yes sir and it's it's the most most one of the most vulnerable
places to be to share what you're going through in the hope it will reach others I hate the fact that people focus on the trade yeah and say you asked for this yeah this is the price of success no it means your message is effective and that
and that your courage is well founded it doesn't mean you deserve to go through what people go through yeah and in the end and that that is truth thank you for saying that for all artists honestly because there's a lot of artists I think
that struggle with that guilt of success and their Humanity who just are frustrated about the way they're treated you know someone was trying to have a go at me about the chapel run thing and I was like just don't just stop don't even if this is how you where you're going to go with this conversation is done for me I find someone else to have it with cuz yeah I have no patience for people no patience for people who have a problem
with the fact that she's like hey there are boundaries here imagine girl in the early 20s in a room setting boundaries no one would ever say and why why would you ever say well that's not cool you asked for this like imagine that in a
real world situation but for some people it's okay to say that about chabo because she's she's famous you're right 100% to zero win on the fact that Chapel is a woman and it's and you're also right that it's much much harder Society
hasn't figured out that imbalance yeah way overdue yeah but you did figure it out you also walked away at 22 and set boundaries in a different way you did do it yeah you did do it yeah and I think what you're talking about right now
we've never talked about your sexuality we've never talked about any of the dialogue that goes around off the off off the off the Record because number one of it's none of my business yeah and I think there's but you address it in the
song yes and the truth about being an an artist in from for me at least what it feels like is I have one job and it's to express my truth I have it's it's my responsibility cuz if people are connecting with the songs and it's
coming from a a place that isn't true they're getting a distorted image and I don't want that I want people to connect with something that is coming like me for who I am don't like me for who I am and and relate to a human not an idea of
one you know if you want to relate to me I'm going to have you relate to the the truth about me not some sort of projected idea of what I want you to think about me you know and um it's my one job my one responsibility is to yourself to myself and I I I would not make art at this point otherwise everything that I write and I and I create um has to be within that truth um um I think the hard part about the society we live in is no one has space
for the gray it's black or white no one has space for the nuances and the complexities of everything in between no one has space for the fact that we are all just trying to figure things out and so because you know why that's a much
longer conversation don't have time people don't have time they don't have time for that conversation that's it really what it comes down to because you know the hardest thing in the world is like recognizing there's no point to the
end of this conversation it's just you it's never enough it's insatable it's a continuous thing yeah and yet on the mountain I address it yeah man but I hear a smile in your last note yeah did I hear it right you're so you're dude
are you you're really just right there I'm pretty sure you're a songwriter and and and a creator of music because that is exactly that I was uh oh beyond happy to land upon those lyrics and to sing those words into a microphone joyful man
that last that last word of that song and I can hear you smiling ah it's soing great yeah so call it what you want so call it what you want yeah because the truth is is that even me I'm I avoid prematurely calling things anything because I many times i' be like well this is who I am 6 months later I'm like uh is it I don't know if I agree with that what he said which is also so fine but like you know I think if there's anything that I want to
people to like really get out of this music and this just this period of time because I do believe the message is greater than the song that's also just the way that I'm kind of holding myself in in every way as the music comes out is that life is just more complicated than these quick kind of you know points about this person is this this person is that and I'm just trying to create room for that greatness that Humanity you know um that's really
all I care about because in my personal life nothing has served me greater than that so I hope that's what people feel out of it I really do yeah I talked on the year life today and I I said I wouldn't bring it up to you but I'm going to give you a
quick paraphrase I I really weighed in I I got pissed off that people goed you for so many years you finally came to some conclusion through your art directly to your fans from the stage decided to just speak your truth in that
moment and how it related to you and people ACC accused you of using it for promotional purposes I said you know the guy hasn't promoted anything for 4 and a half fuing years the guy has literally played the no attention game for 4 and a halfing years and now you're accusing him of like trying to sell records are you kidding with his most mature album yet if you're not saying anything you're hiding and if you're saying something
you're promoting it what a sandwich it's crazy man but you know what I've I've just started to learn is like oh man really those people when they're when they're saying that stuff it's just they're like those are like 10 people and there's 10
million people who are like it's also what he called it's projecting yeah it's entirely projecting it's projection man yeah man so I app I appreciate you backing me up though cuz yeah it's just I'm also just for my own sake I just
want to live in an authentic truth but I also just feel really protective of all artists you know know especially ones coming yeah I'm sure you do and I know that I've been in this for 10 years so I think sometimes I'm like okay you know I
can do this I'm 26 I know who I am I I can do this I can speak some truth so that maybe the next generation of artists feels like a little bit more comfortable a little bit more permission to speak and that's important to me
you've definitely achieved it on this album It's A Beautiful revelation of a record to listen to from in terms of not just the the writing but the performance and the way that you inhabit the words and inhabit the stories um it's easy when you're younger to be a performer before you emote and I feel like you've caught up with each other yeah it's like the emotion and the performance are now at one on a song like isn't that enough
beautiful performance you layer yourself beautifully thank um I want to talk about Heart of Gold that one really moved me and I'd love to just talk a little bit about that song and whatever part of the story you want to share
elaborate on yeah man I mean look like I when when when he died I just did not process a single ounce of it not one t who we talking about talking about my friend diomi when I was young I had a friend and um we were very close from
like the age of like maybe like 10 or 111 12 to like 14 and then I got signed at 15 you know and we kind of went separate ways and um we were super close though and you know 15 when I was about 18 I got a call from my friend Brian it was like us
three were very close friends and he said you know he passed away into sleep last night he overdosed um and I was so disconnected from him and so disconnected from what that even meant that yeah I just didn't even
process a single thing not a tear you know and I always kind of had this feeling of like wow am I just like heartless like did I just not care because I saw Brian in in in completely torn apart I saw so many people and then
about you know what what ever 10 months ago I'm in the studio and I'm I'm thinking of 10 months ago from today around then yeah I guess I'm in the studio and um there's this phrase Heart of Gold which I know is a Neil Young song
but I'm just like can't stop thinking about can't stop thinking about it and it's okay you're Canadian by the way yeah he gives the he gives his glossery to all Canadians oh is that the truth no I don't know I don't know I'm going to
have to ask him I'm sure we have a conversation about that I'm sure he doesn't care um but um Scott Harris who I've worked with for a long time he's known me for so long he asked me he's like didn't you have a friend who passed away uh and I
was like what no I did I didn't when he said that I was like what and then it just kind of like a wave of grief and I never experienced it in my life it's just like uncontrollable soing you could see that you dug deep enough and it was there it was just right there God gets one that's that's real work yeah it's real work man makes you realize as well that those years earlier probably a really good moment for you to come to terms with just
how many layers you had created between thousands of layers between me and reality and now you'd pull them all back found where it was yeah it gun and it made a beautiful song out of it and it was tough to make that song man it felt
like trudging through mud it was like didn't want to do it it felt hard but it felt like the greatest achievement on the record you know so dude the way I've seen that song affect people even over the last six shows it's like there has
not been a single show someone hasn't come up to me with te With Tears in their eyes it's Brave man it's just Brave to do it it's brave for you to open up an album by asking the question and and making the statement it's a
question statement it's not lost on me who I am is you know it's it's those words are normally in a different order yeah and uh but but it's beautiful you've come to a conclusion that it's a statement but yet you ask you open the
you open the song with such a it's so much doubt and it's about who you are not always having to be this this concrete definition of something positive sometimes who you are is a mess and you're confused and you don't know
where you're going and that's part of who you are you know and um yeah man that's that's just like letting go of having to be in a great state all the time has freed me entirely you know in every way I know that you've struggled on and off
over the course of your life and most Pro most notably in the last four years with anxiety and I wonder how how your relationship is right now in those moments when cuz we and anyone who suffers and acknowledges will never be
free of it it's just there it's just how loud it gets through the amp of your mind how are your tools what's in the box how you how are you processing cuz I know that you've been through some pretty pretty low points for sure man
and honestly the I've never had more tools at my disposal whether that's like therapy or my own personal tools or just like friends who truly know me who are constantly available um it's really like as I've opened myself up to people recognizing that I've created almost this like beautiful home of souls that can handle and hold anything that cuz tangible it's real it's real man it's real like dealing with everything alone is just not the
way to do it um in these days is yeah I just have I have my people and that's really the main answer there is like when when the when the moments come it's sometimes just nice to have people around you to be able to hold you
in that space you know so what is your relationship like now with with the people that hold you in the other space in the live environment when you go out there and you're faced once again with this sense of genuine and well-meaning
affection and support and love there's no other word for it it's love yes it is but it's not the love that you have backstage with your friends and that's an important distinction in order to process both equally yeah and honestly
I'm still discovering my relationship with that and what that is becoming I heard John Mayor say this thing in a podcast once he said this beautiful thing which is like his goal is to have the stage level with the ground obviously not physically but
metaphorically and energetically to have there be no difference between stepping on that stage and stepping off of it in front of people and whether that's doable or whether that's something that should be the case or not I found it
really beautiful to think about it that way certainly not where you started your career no no no no I was trying to step I was trying to step onto a stage 100,000 ft in the SK people all the way up there yeah no this album is
definitely on a level yes so you've been playing new songs in front of an audience that look the hope is and the dream and the reality eventually is that they is that they mature with you yeah they learn a bit more about themselves
and the ones who love where you are at this point in your life are excited to have this music yeah there has to be also an acceptance and and and and a willingness with a with a full heart to let the people who want that
Sean go yes even just for a little bit Yeah and meet up later yeah you're cool with that it it has to be that way there's there's there's one me there I'm not I'm not um I'm not kind of all these versions of me all over the place but you are on stage because you have versions of you showing up at different points of the night all the time and those and that is that all adds up to one being who is just trying to exist even when I'm on
stage that is existing in authenticity whether that whatever that looks like you know so you can you can perform some of your older songs that fans have loved for the longest time with a new authenticity without trying to recapture
that spirit so I can't do it on my own I can't be in like a room on my own singing treat you better or in my blood I'll be like I don't need to I don't want to do this ever again but when I'm on stage there's something really
beautiful that happens where I can just recognize oh people really like this like people like these songs these songs mean something to them you know it'd be like John getting on stage and playing gravity and I that means something to my
my childhood and that alone is just like it's almost just kind of like okay oh here we go treat you better stitches let's do it you know um which is an entirely different type of performance you know interesting though as over time
I've spoken to a lot of artists who redefine and ReDiscover those songs that the it's a really normal stage to go through the gifting of the song Yes letting them go they don't really belong to you but eventually you come back
around and they actually kind of reveal themselves in a different way I'm sure yeah I guess I'm not there yet but it's kind of fun because when I sing those songs it's almost this like I don't feel like I'm the performer I feel like we're
all together just like singing an old Shawn Mendes H song but is the dream but is the dream one day to be able to go on stage and not sing that song because because you choose not to sing that song and sing that song because you choose to
sing that song cuz if I just want to be a little bit specific about the language right now it feels to me like you still feel a little bit of a of a of a well-meaning obligation to sing that song If I didn't want to sing those
songs I I wouldn't to be honest with you I wouldn't get on stage and I but I recognize what those songs allow me to do they allow me to they give me a stage to play the new ones they give me a stage to they give me a stage period that's a good mature approach of done you know I think there'll be a show in the not too distant future where you might just decide on the spot backstage to just leave that one off the cuz why the not just to see yeah
just to see if anyone walks out yeah just to see if anyone decides to have a tantrum I think a lot in a lot of ways in these new news shows I have been playing the entirely new album top to bottom and what's interesting is where
we left off with the public was at the end of a Wonder tour so it was this hyper pop hyper bastic very bombastic yeah and it was leaving there so you almost I get the sensation of people walking in almost like where we left off
and in the first 10 minutes they recognize oh this is different and by the end they're like oh I like this new thing like I can drop my shoulders a little bit here at this new thing well cuz they're looking at a happy healthy
Sean you look really great and you look healthy so let's just get into it let's dive into it is this the first for everything let's talk about regimen let's talk about what a day is like for you let's talk about how you stay in
good physical shape how you counter that with with good mental health and and just what is your routine right now cuz I think the more we talk about it the more we Inspire other people to break their absolutely yeah I mean honestly for me it's you going to tell me that you don't work out just eating while I'm going to come across there and punch you in the face no I work out but a lot less than I used to because I think it depends on who you
are some people need discipline and some people need to relax for me is I've never struggled with discipline like that's always something I've I've had in uh too much of you know interesting what does that mean um because it because you
started young and because you had to you had to show up on time yeah I think I started much younger than that when I played soccer when I was a kid is just very feeling a sense of responsibility and discipline um and I think the reason
I think I feel I feel I look and seem the best in my life just because I'm a lot more uh present to what it is I actually need you know and I wake up in the morning and it's not always wake up in the morning and pump iron or or work
out um like a lot of the time it's wake up in the morning and like rest you know or it's sometimes you know like I'm pretty pretty uh strict on my diet but not crazy honestly like these days allow myself to just kind of be present to
what it is that I need what's a filth day a filth day yeah like what are you eating on on on the day off I don't have cheat days I let myself for the mo like I honest to God I'm not even I'm not going to the last time you had a
cheeseburger show I have a I've had a cheeseburger in the last six months but here's the truth months no but here's the truth I don't need to have more discipline if anything I need to force myself to let go I need to force myself
to have a burger I need to force myself to have a cookie because that's actually where I'm lacking that's where my I'm out of balance you know maybe that's just rare like maybe it's but it's not any better by the way someone who's
extremely lazy and undisciplined is no better than someone who's extremely controlling and disciplined they're kind of just two poles of the same extreme you know but I'm trying to figure out like whether you and cam were good for
each other on that level or whether you were the same day and it was just discipline on discipline and it was just like I'll have it if you have it I'll eat the cookie if you eat the cookie because she's a hyperfocused
incredibly dedicated hardworking person as well yeah but I just don't know if she's like eat a cheeseburger no she she would she would she would do that to me she would get very angry with me for not having a cheeseburg and it was great it was huge I needed
that at the time in my life that is the root of the Friendship isn't it the lifelong friendship is that she's sees in you based on the songs you've written and the conversations I've had with both of you You' see in each other the
goodness that that that others don't necessarily get a chance to see the sides of each other yeah I mean I just think that we really know each other and I think you know we haven't been the closest over the last couple years but I
think we really know each other we spent a lot of time together we really know each other's Hearts so even when all the sound and all the noise is is happening um we can kind of see through each other's pretty easily and it's
just like it's just nice to have that you know you end the song with a version of Hallelujah it's an interesting decision because it's a song that I know even you sing it beautifully but it's not going to give me anything more the
song's not going to give me anything more that I haven't gotten from Jeff or from Leonard at this point in my life right like I know what that song means to lyrically Mel I know what I know what it means to me so I I really felt like
that was almost like the final gift for you it was absolutely and it was actually the way this entire album was a process of giving myself a gift of music you know it was it was really about what felt good for me um and we were in the
studio and we were done the album and I was sitting there just with a harmonium and I was just singing it and we were just like we should probably just record this record right I'm in the pocket we did one take and we just like recorded it and had someone play some strings on it and it was just so can I ask you as someone who's not only recorded it but decided to share it and there is a list of people at a very high level who have
done that what's it like singing that song it is somewhere that straddles between the conventional melodic Genius of alard Cohen but the spiritual access he seemed to gather that day and when I hear Jeff sing it I feel like he was
somewhere else yeah it's beyond it's beyond it's and every night I do it on stage actually it's beyond it's a yeah it's a powerful song and sometimes it feels like takes you out of your own abilities to perform doesn't it
completely I always feel like people find new notes and new tones and new feelings yeah it it's it's singing itself in a lot of ways and um and sometimes if just feels like every you know I don't know my generation you know it's Shrek Shrek
hallelujah it's like the thing in Shrek Shrek one there was this big scene with with Hallelujah 50% of the time it's beautiful and spiritual and 50% of the time 50% of the time it sounds like Shrek happening and that's just the
honest [Laughter] truth I'm sorry to break oh my God welcome to 2024 carry that with you all the way yeah man doesn't doesn't take away from the beauty of it no you do a great job and I it's it's a song that I'm that
people will always try to get close to because of what we talked about because it's more than a performance I think you learn things about yourself when you you listen and sing that song yeah agree and I'm glad it was a moment that you just
decided to there spontaneously do and I think it says a lot about where you are at this point in your life where it's like okay let me speak to myself on through this well the lyrics never resonated more with me than they have
this year I don't think I understood them when I was younger you know you just played in front of 100,000 people I mean you stepped off the cliff in a pretty big way free dived into the ocean um what did that do for your desire to
for 2025 to put it really bluntly did it kickart the kind of endorphins that you used to get back in the day and how does that make you feel when you feel that Rush again it didn't no good I say good like I know but I I would imagine that
would be bad it did not yeah it it it was beautiful and special but it didn't give me the I think the thing you're alluding to is like the ego Rush that here comes the ID yeah exactly that makes you be like I'm him I'm I'm the
one you know um it was just it was just surreal but at the same time like I think it goes back to what I was saying before about those songs is those songs really mean things to people and they mean a lot to me but especially when you're going to other countries um you can feel it it's palpable like the the weight these songs have in a way that is ego talking if you're going to if treat if treat's going to get played and 100,000 people
there you're going to that sng back to you yeah of course you process that in a really beautiful way now but equally how can you not how can it not kick that back in a little bit you know sure I mean I think the there's there's like
that's such a complex thing to even talk about cuz ego I don't see ego as a bad thing I I think maybe we're talking about ego when it gets to the point of being anho controls you verus being control control of it and choose to turn
it on and off can be done but when it controls you is when you make mad decisions you yell at people when you shouldn't you say yes to things you shouldn't say yes to yeah and also I think you know yeah he goes really
interesting because I think a lot of what freed me to feel like I could do something along those lines had a lot to do with just how much I practiced in the past you know and prepared for these shows um and nowadays the truth is that if I get into
that ego state which we're talking about I don't really think that guy's is very enjoyable to watch because he's like I'm I'm the man you know I'm it's not it's not really I don't think kind of corny yeah it's kind of corn it's kind of it's kind of boring and corny I don't think people even want to see that anymore I think yeah they don't want yeah they want someone who's like just authentic up there and they want to see an
authentically talented human being do something special agree I think we're in a very nice very appropriately developing generational shift into a new authentic into a new authenticity a lot of ways I I've been saying this for
months years even is that it seems like we're going through a kind of um similar thing to what happened in the 70s with music and we're kind of on the beginning of it and I think people are really craving authenticity and they're craving
uh songs that represent what's happening in the world and human experiences and human stories I mean I know I'm having the best time of my life having these kind of conversations because people are more open and the audience is more open
everyone everyone you know everyone's just tired of living in some sort of make belief I think well but but then let me ask you this you know on a on a Fate on a fateful on you know on one particular night this year you found
yourself back in a room at at the VMAs so how was that experience for you being back in that room having come through what you've come through that would have been normal in 2020 it's the new normal now the truth is that I got on stage and
I sang a song that was that no one had heard before and I did it with uh Mike Sabbath and Edy Benjamin and it was a three-piece band there was one acoustic guitar live there was one electric guitar live and there was a drum set
live I mean it's one step on from the room you wrote it in it it and that was the and I think in a space like an award show where often times there's a lot of there's just a lot of track and a lot of sounds to make a big thing we stripped
it back there was there was nothing to fall back on it was what it was it was right in that moment that's been beautiful during the sound chck and watching half the people who are getting ready for the next hyper ballistic
performance eating a sandwich cuz what are they got to do nothing to do there nothing to do and I mean I get there's no shade cuz it's just a different thing entirely you know being there you've done that yeah it's I've done that it's a different thing entirely but for me it felt important to to step on the stage at the VMAs and do something extremely raw and also just like in the green room after just be be raw kind of laugh right
and and just find it fun find it fun and not not take its not be in War of competition you know um yes and actually it shifted my entire view on award shows after that I was like I think it's very easy to allow award shows or things like
that to be the greater energy than you but you can actually walk in there and be like no this is this is I'm not going to you know let me add some value let me let me change this for what's good for me you know yeah yeah yeah and if you
get something out beautiful people dig it yeah the album is called Shan you know what I really love about this whole experience is that um I think when I spoke to you on wonder and I and previous conversation we had as well I I
got a feeling that yeah you know I hope this conversation performs for you because I know you want this album to perform yeah what you said at the very beginning to close the loop on this on this conversation was very was very um
self-aware again very self-aware and I felt wrapped up in that too I feel like this is the first of many conversations we're going to have I hope yeah um that just really track a different path yeah yeah you know where the music really is
the is the Benchmark of success yeah cuz this is a very successful album if put it through the music I don't know what it's going to do I don't know how people find an audience or what numbers mean anymore I think it's going to be fine I
think it's too undeniable to not reach its audience I also know that I don't think you care much as much yeah yeah and I think we're we're on the path of like having conversations that reflect humanity and not um a dream or an idea you know they're important too dude they're they're incredibly important and I think and for everyone that is you know you know starting or people that's been in a long time like do your thing this is mine right now