0:05
Trip, welcome to the podcast. Thank you.
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0:07
So good to have you here.
0:07
Um, we're going to just dive right in it.
0:09
So, you've now created a new company.
0:11
It's called Created by Humans.
0:13
Yeah, so Created by Humans is a company that's aiming to solve copyright in the AI era and get uh you know, find a a good balance between AI and human-generated works and um we're doing this by building a marketplace where we call AI rights.
0:29
Where creators can license their works to AI companies and AI companies get the high-quality data they need.
0:32
Do you think creatives are kind of being ripped off at the moment?
0:39
Well, I think that it's a tricky situation right now where a lot of creative works are being used without the permission of rights holders and we think there needs to be a new model built where rights holders can have control over how their work is used and get compensated for it.
0:49
And it's just it's just a tricky problem to solve.
0:50
I mean, I think AI took a lot of people by surprise and I think it's just a problem that we need to we need to solve.
0:55
So, maybe just taking a step back for our listeners, how do you the LLMs currently work?
1:00
Um, how are they using the the work of creatives um in things like OpenAI and ChatGPT?
1:07
Well, these LLMs need a lot of uh a lot of data to learn from and to to to train on.
1:11
Um, and um they need they need lots of data and it's just very complicated to license it all.
1:15
So, so they've basically just taken the approach of just um you know, training on everything for free.
1:20
But, I think long-term we need a new model that works for the AI companies and works for creators and that's what we're trying to put in place.
1:25
So, maybe a a stupid question, Trip, but how does it actually work?
1:27
So, I wrote a book in 2013 put out by W. H. Allen, the publisher.
1:32
Where would say OpenAI have got that book from?
1:37
You know, these companies don't talk a lot about where they get their data.
1:40
It's kind of uh it's something that they they sort of uh yeah, they just don't talk about it too much.
1:43
There's a lot of these uh various like pirate sites and and various places where books get out there.
1:50
So, I I mean, I can't even really say.
1:52
Uh but but uh what you know, we believe at Created by Humans there just needs to be like a really easy simple legitimate way to get it.
1:58
And one of the reasons these companies have been able to get them easily is just the rights are really complicated.
2:04
You know, the the publishing contracts for last 70 years have not mentioned AI rights.
2:07
So, it's not clear who has the AI rights.
2:09
And the general consensus is that they're they're co-owned by the authors and the publishers.
2:12
So, in order to to unlock the AI rights for a book, we need to clear that with the author, the publisher, sometimes multiple authors.
2:19
There's often a literary agent involved and illustrator.
2:20
It gets really complicated.
2:22
So, a lot of work we do is just clearing the AI rights so that AI companies don't have to worry about that.
2:26
Okay, there's quite a lot to unpack there.
2:27
So, let me start with the first part of what you said.
2:29
It's not clear where the AI companies actually get this work.
2:32
That that to me sounds quite strange.
2:34
You think about these companies, you know, Google is one of them, right? OpenAI is another.
2:38
You think of these as incredibly shiny professional companies.
2:41
That sounds almost Napster-esque that they have been what?
2:45
Kind of using pirate sites to get PDFs of books and it sounds very kind of wild west.
2:52
Yeah, well, I think Silicon Valley is very wild west and I think the world AI is very wild west.
2:56
So, yeah, I think everyone's just figuring this out as it goes along.
2:59
I mean, I just I don't I don't work at one of the big foundation models.
3:02
I just can't comment and it's a it's a legally sensitive situation.
3:03
So, I don't I don't want to spread rumors.
3:07
But there's various rumors in the media of like where where they get the data.
3:10
And yeah, I mean, we just think that sure it started as a wild west, but I think longer term we need a legitimate model that that protects the creative industries and gets these AI companies the right books.
3:19
Cuz I I don't think they want to use pirated versions.
3:20
I think they want legitimate copies.
3:21
They they want to make sure they're in the highest quality data.
3:24
They want to make sure they're getting it directly from rights holders.
3:27
So, I think I think everyone wants to do the right thing.
3:29
It's just a tricky problem that we need to solve.
3:30
So, maybe one way to frame what you're doing is you're trying to move, particularly I guess the the written industry, books from the Napster era where it's sort of currently now, where it's a bit of a wild west, they're using
3:41
these these these works without sort of proper authority and without compensating people, move that more to a Spotify kind of model where people are generally getting compensated for the the work that's being used and listened to. Yeah, I think that's well said. We're
3:54
Yeah, I think that's well said.
3:54
We're kind of in the Napster era of AI and we need to move to the Spotify era.
3:56
And I mean this has played out in in music and other media types before and it's just playing out again in in AI and there's just new nuances that need to be solved and addressed and that's what we're doing at Created by Humans.
4:07
So let's explain the rights that you were talking about there a little bit more.
4:09
So as a writer, you write a novel and traditionally with a publisher, they'll buy the rights and then it'll be really clear who owns the rights to the book.
4:17
If there's a movie made about it for example, maybe that's involved in the contract.
4:20
But you're saying there's basically never been anything in these contracts between an author and a publisher which says if an LLM wants to use it, if it wants to be used for AI, this is who owns it.
4:30
And so it's completely unclear whether that's the publisher or the author.
4:34
Yeah, it's it's it's unclear if the if AI rights were never mentioned in the contract, it generally the default is those rights go to the author.
4:40
But in some cases you can argue it's a split right where the publisher and the author both co-own it.
4:45
And that's why we've built a system where authors and publishers can kind of together work this out cuz there's just so many permutations of authors and and publishers and asking every single deal to be negotiated is just really complicated.
4:55
So our platform just makes this really simple so we can kind of solve these AI rights in a in a scalable way.
5:00
How have you found that bit?
5:00
So I mean clearly, you know, publishers and authors are on one side of this argument and the LLMs are on the other side.
5:05
But within the publishers and authors, is that also complicated where you've got to kind of individually barter between them?
5:12
Yeah, it's it's really complicated.
5:13
I mean we're we're we have to we're solving sort of uh disagreements between uh content owners and LLMs and also within the publishing industry.
5:20
So it's it's really complicated but we're we're making very good progress.
5:23
We're pleased with the progress and we think we're on track here.
5:27
It's uh history doesn't repeat but it certainly rhymes.
5:29
This sounds like a similar paradigm for technology.
5:33
Yeah, it it does and I think there's a lot to learn from the past year but also the past gives us a lot of confidence that we're going to figure this out this time.
5:39
Taking a step back, why do you think this is such an important problem to solve for society?
5:42
Why is this a giant idea?
5:47
Well, I mean it's um it's it's important that we create a world where humans are creating are creating things.
5:53
Um I I think it's great that AI is going to start creating more and more more media, more books, more videos, more music, but if it's just AI creating things, not not humans, that's kind of a a terrifying future.
6:03
So, we want to create a world where there's still an incentive model for for humans to create things, and if humans are creating things and AI are creating things, these two kind of coexist and enforce each other.
6:14
Um I think that's just a that's going to be a great world.
6:17
So, that's our that's our driving idea.
6:18
That's what I wanted to pick up on Trip, actually, fundamentally today, was it's really important to compensate existing creatives for their work, right?
6:24
It's just not fair that they've been ripped off, and that they need to be compensated, clearly.
6:28
But, do you think there is actually a future for future creatives to be compensated, or because we're getting to a world very closely now of superintelligence, we were we were together at an event of ours earlier this week, and DeepMind founder was there, and he was saying, "Look, yeah, of course artificial general intelligence is coming very soon to the human level, but actually it's going way beyond that."
6:49
And that applies to creatives, too.
6:51
So, do you think there will be any creatives who are needed, and therefore needed to be compensated?
6:58
What what I'd ask ask you guys, I mean, do you want to be in a world where every single piece of media you consume is created by robots? No.
7:04
I I don't think any of us want that world.
7:06
Um I think it's great if robots are creating media, but I think we also want to have humans creating media, and and that's what we're trying to figure out.
7:13
We want to we want to create that world.
7:14
Um so, I I hope that for hundreds and thousands of years humans are still creating things, and you know, we're trying to build the the system that will allow that to keep keep happening.
7:21
allow that to keep keep happening. My view is that of course, um we want humans to continue to be creative, and I think as more and more of the content gets generated by machines, I personally believe that originality and true human insight will be the differentiator, because if we're
7:37
training these models on what's come before, then by default it's going to produce a median of what's been produced before and that's not Although all their art is derivative in some way, I think all art that really captures the attention of people typically is novel in some way and original in some way. So, I think just by default if you're
7:52
So, I think just by default if you're training on what's come before, you're going to produce something that's the average.
7:57
But perhaps that's me being idealistic and hopeful.
7:58
I I did hear some stat the other day that sort of shocked me as a musician where I was 18% of the music on Spotify is now AI generated. Wow.
8:06
And apparently Daniel Ek was saying um I had on sort of good authority that he thinks he it could be much more, but that sort of human society is not quite willing to kind of accept that yet.
8:17
Um which I made me a bit depressed to be honest.
8:19
I really hope that's not the future.
8:21
I I think also Cam, you know, you were talking there about everything reversed to the mean with AI.
8:25
A couple of months ago, you know, we all saw that uh the internet was flooded with these Studio Ghibli type images right from the Open AI's image generator.
8:32
And there was this big outcry about, "Oh my goodness, this is terrible.
8:35
Studio Ghibli spent uh literally hundreds of hours creating one of those images and now it's ripped off."
8:40
But actually what I felt looking at that was "This is so boring.
8:42
The whole world is creating the same type of art."
8:46
And actually is an example of why individual real human creativity will always be somewhat more interesting than the mean.
8:52
Do you Do you agree with that?
8:55
Yeah, I mean I I agree human creativity is There's something invaluable about it and it needs to be protected at all costs.
9:00
And and yeah, I I think it would be it would be terrible if the world just sort of human stopped creating and AI just builds off of, you know, human creations until now.
9:07
I hope humans keep creating things for decades and centuries in the future and then I hope that AI keeps learning from that for decades and centuries in the future.
9:14
And I think if we if we, you know, we build the build the pipelines to make that happen, it's going to be a great a great world for everyone.
9:20
And maybe in the world in which AI does more and more the things like human creativity, like uh compassion, like intelligence, like core human qualities that at least today can't be replicated in the same way by machines, perhaps they will become even more valuable.
9:35
That is what one one sort of counter counter reality we could imagine, right?
9:40
I think that's that's totally possible.
9:42
Yeah, I mean I I I I I think that as AI gets more abundant, you know, human creativity will likely be yeah, more valuable time.
9:50
Maybe um if it's okay just maybe taking uh uh kind of a step back into your journey, what led you to to build Created by Humans?
9:57
I think it's a when we when we heard the pitch we're proud investors, we thought it was a fantastically original idea and hugely needed.
10:01
So, what took you on your journey to to to to to launch this company?
10:08
Yeah, well, I I just saw the saw the problem very clearly.
10:10
I saw that all the the the content owners were were suing the AI companies and the AI companies didn't seem to have a a clear clear answer to this besides just respond to the lawsuits.
10:19
Um in particular I I knew a lot of people involved.
10:21
Um I mean I know from my previous company I knew a lot of people in the book world and they were coming to me asking for for advice on what to do about the situation.
10:27
And then the people getting sued were people I knew in Silicon Valley.
10:31
I just I I just thought like I wanted to solve this problem.
10:34
Actually, I saw it as like an interpersonal problem.
10:36
I was just like, well, if we can just end the lawsuits and get people talking to each other, we'll figure this out.
10:39
Um so, I just started talking to to, you know, my folks I knew in the book industry, folks I knew in the the tech industry, and then just started going down the path of solving the problem, and then pretty soon set up a company, raised funding, and here we are today.
10:52
Who have you got on the platform so far from the creative side?
10:57
Uh we have large number of great authors.
10:59
Uh some of the the the uh big ones we work with are like Walter Isaacson and Doug Preston.
11:03
Uh they've been got two of the two of the ones we're working with most closely, but we got a long list of folks you can see on our website.
11:09
So, Trip, just explain to us how these different types of rights work all the way from just being able to train the models on some content all the way through to writing a poem in the style of Cameron Mac Lean. That's a good style.
11:21
Yeah, well, we should we should definitely license that style for sure.
11:24
Um yeah, so when we got started we were really focused on on training and um uh you know, solving the problem around training data, but we realized the idea is bigger than that.
11:31
So, we've we've developed a whole new system of AI rights.
11:35
We have three categories of AI rights.
11:37
So, the first is getting content for AI model training.
11:39
The second is what we call reference rights, which is making content available for for rag.
11:45
And then the third is what we call transformative rights.
11:47
And this is for taking a copyright work and transforming it into something new.
11:52
So, this could be turning a book into a video using AI.
11:54
It could be chatting with a character in a book.
11:56
It could be writing a new book in the style of an author's voice.
11:59
So, we're creating all these different rights frameworks that haven't really been, you know, needed before.
12:05
And we're creating them for this new AI world.
12:07
And and this will just kind of unlock a whole new range of possibilities what what can be done with copyright content.
12:13
And just for listeners, rag you mentioned in the middle there.
12:16
Yeah, rag rag stands for retrieval augmented generation.
12:17
It's it's it's a kind of a buzzword in Silicon Valley right now because a lot of people are using it.
12:25
It's like imagine if you ask question and the answer is on, you know, page 152 of a book.
12:31
Rag will allow you to kind of get that that answer directly versus having to train on it in advance.
12:35
So, just a it's a new it's a new technology and they they need AI companies need data to power rag and and we just are another data source for that. Got it.
12:46
And maybe if we compare it back to Spotify and we were using that analogy earlier on, I guess Spotify had this incredibly positive on the music industry overall where Napster came along and was ripping off music and the whole industry was declining.
12:56
CD sales went through the floor and there was kind of complete panic in the industry. Mhm.
13:01
Enormous boom since then because of Spotify and other streaming platforms giving those rights.
13:05
But I guess if you dig a little deeper, it's been brilliant for the mega artists, not so great for the smaller artists who struggled to to monetize through through Spotify as much.
13:15
How do you see that playing out in the world of creatives?
13:17
So, you've got some really big name authors, you mentioned Walter Isaacson and so on.
13:21
Will they get the lion's share of revenue and how will it work for kind of smaller creatives who you be more at risk from AI.
13:28
Yeah, it's it's a tricky problem.
13:28
I wouldn't say we have the answer, but I we're you know, we're dedicated to trying to make this work for for all kinds of creators.
13:34
We want to make it work for for the big big authors.
13:35
We want to make it work for small authors.
13:38
Eventually, we want to make it work for you know, anyone who writes a poem.
13:39
Um so, that's what we're trying to do.
13:41
I I wouldn't say we've like solved it yet, but I mean that's a core part of what we want to do is to make this really, you know, widely available to creators of all kinds.
13:47
And perhaps the way that creators engage with their audience would evolve.
13:51
I mean, Spotify uh in terms of royalties hasn't been great for smaller creators, but it has unlocked a new uh sort of large avenues for touring in particular.
13:59
So, I think it's hard to kind of predict where this this heads in a couple of years. I I agree.
14:04
And and given that the alternative is is piracy, I mean, it's just better to get a a paid model going where creators have some control versus just having this happen without control, without compensation.
14:14
So, we think really any baby steps in this direction is hugely valuable.
14:16
And as an author, is there any sense of how much of their overall income this is going to make up?
14:23
So, you've got your book deal and you're getting you're paid for that and maybe as I say, there's some TV rights that might come.
14:27
What percentage of your overall revenue as a creator is going to come from AI rights?
14:33
Yeah, I mean, we really don't know, but but we believe this is the next big model for the book industry.
14:36
Um if you look at like the history of the book industry, they're keeping new models that that are new ways for authors reach audiences.
14:43
So, first it was print books and then it was ebooks and then it was audiobooks and there's been things like movie rights and podcast rights.
14:49
Uh we think AI rights are going to be like the next big the big thing.
14:53
Um so, it's going to take time to build build it out, build the model, but we think long-term it's going to be the model of the future.
14:57
And tell us a bit about that.
14:58
I know created by humans has kind of a specific meaning, particularly kind of with with how copyright can evolve and how could you see this model and this technology being applied to other forms of of creativity outside of uh books?
15:11
Yeah, I think it'd be applied to everything really well.
15:13
Um we just want to solve it for one vertical before we expand.
15:16
Um it's hard enough to solve this for one thing.
15:17
So, we're trying to focus on books, solve it for books, and then from there we can expand this to the film, to journalism, to music, I mean really to any kind of human data.
15:27
Let's talk a little bit about policy.
15:29
You're here in London with us, and you we were at an event with Peter Kyle, the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation, and Technology here in the UK.
15:36
And Elton John has been rather rude about our friend Peter.
15:39
He called him a because they're so upset with the I guess the imbalance that the creative industry here in the UK sees between the creators and the AI platforms.
15:47
And they perceive the government as you know favoring the AI companies because the government really wants to supercharge AI.
15:55
So there's a big battle going on there.
15:56
Government's sort of stuck in the middle.
15:58
What do you think government should be doing if anything on updating copyright laws for the problem you're solving?
16:05
Well, there's yeah, there's a few approaches to solving this.
16:07
One is on the policy side, and others by you know with these lawsuits and see where that resolves.
16:11
I mean, we're focused on solving this on like the the product side.
16:15
I mean, we're just talking to customers and we're building products that solve the solution.
16:20
Um I I think that the the government could certainly play a role in setting some policy here.
16:24
Uh we are you know we're putting together our our kind of proposal we're going to share with the world soon.
16:31
Uh and I I don't think that the government needs to do a lot.
16:33
I think mostly government just needs to let market forces play out here.
16:36
Uh but there's probably a few things government can do sort of like unstick the situation and just kind of get this get this new framework out.
16:43
I I think you're looking at history, I would say that government will not be the thing that moves the needle here.
16:46
Um Spotify we've referred to a few times as when you give both sides a great product that's a win-win situation that also works for consumers.
16:53
That's that's what will move it forward, I think.
16:56
I mean, that's what we believe, and that's how we're we're trying to solve it.
16:58
And I mean, yeah, we're solving it by building a product.
17:00
And I I mean, I think there's probably some things that the the government could do in terms of uh both protecting creators, but also in terms of protecting AI companies and making it easier for AI companies.
17:09
So there's like a few a few policies that have been put in place.
17:13
Um but that's a whole long conversation about what what they could or could not do.
17:18
Every startup and founder needs to run through a few brick walls to kind of see their vision come to life.
17:23
What are some of the walls that you're having to run through with Created by Humans to make this vision come to be?
17:31
Well, I think we're running through brick walls constantly, right?
17:35
I mean, I I think it starts out where you where you go talk to authors and you know, some some authors are really enthusiastic about AI and some are just don't even want to talk about AI, right?
17:44
So, like we have those kinds of problems.
17:45
Then you have AI companies, some of them are into this idea, some of them just want to let the lawsuits play out, right?
17:50
So, there's just like there's just a whole range of opinions here.
17:53
And I think we just need to kind of address each of these concerns one at a time.
17:56
And I think by building a product that that is there if you if you love AI, if you don't like AI, if you're in between, it just just gives control to each of the different parties given their different preferences.
18:07
I think that's how we how we solve this.
18:09
But, I think it's just I mean, that's what it feels like building a company is just one brick wall after another and we just kind of clear one at a time and eventually it all comes together and things move forward.
18:18
Trip, let's go back in your journey a little bit.
18:20
This is not your first rodeo.
18:21
You were the founder and CEO of Script, the digital publishing platform.
18:26
Created that from scratch in your apartment, right? In San Francisco.
18:28
Tell us about the founding story of that. Yeah, that's right.
18:32
We started in the in the Y scraper with all the other Y guys in the Y scraper.
18:36
And tell tell tell our listeners about it.
18:39
Well, in the early days of Y Combinator, a bunch of Y Combinator companies all moved into one apartment building and we all built our companies out there.
18:45
So, it was like other companies that were like like Dropbox and Weebly and Zobni and Reddit and we all just kind of worked out of that building.
18:53
We called it the Y scraper.
18:54
Um Tell us about life in the Y scraper.
18:58
Oh boy, those were those were the days.
19:01
I mean, you know, I guess a thing that really stood out was you remember Justin.
19:05
tv before it became Twitch?
19:07
Yeah, so so they were in the Yeah, so so Justin. tv was in the apartment.
19:11
So, basically, everywhere you go, there was Justin with a camera on.
19:14
So, there was like the whole the whole the whole thing was being live-streamed. version of Big Brother.
19:19
Everyone's on TV all the time. a lot like that, yeah.
19:20
Does that footage survive?
19:23
Uh Nothing dies on the internet, so it's somewhere.
19:27
Yeah, I don't know where the I mean, it was it was a interesting time.
19:28
And yeah, I mean, there was always like venture capitalists coming by the coming by the the the the building and just you media coming by.
19:38
It was yeah, it was a really interesting time.
19:40
How old were you at that time?
19:41
Like early 20s, just out of college. Amazing. Amazing.
19:43
And so, tell us about the the idea and and you had a conversation with your father. Is that right?
19:48
Which was part of the inspiration?
19:51
We were at Harvard, me and my co-founder Jared, we senior year at Harvard, we just started like playing with ideas for companies.
19:58
We tried a few different ideas.
19:58
We applied to YC back in '06 with totally different idea.
20:07
Yeah, we applied with one idea.
20:07
Paul Graham told us that he would only invest if we did a different idea, so we changed the idea, then we changed it again.
20:14
We're actually one of the first companies to like rapidly pivot a lot before we launched anything.
20:18
We probably tried like 10 ideas. the first idea?
20:23
Uh You applied to YC we applied to YC with was going to be this sort of like transportation search super app sort of thing.
20:27
Um That's a long way from where you ended up.
20:31
Yeah, it was a lot like it was actually we described Uber perfectly.
20:36
But this was pre-iPhone, pre-like easy payments.
20:40
We were just way ahead of our time.
20:42
I think I think from that I learned like you can't be too early with an idea.
20:44
Being early is as bad as you know, just being totally wrong.
20:47
So, that was the original idea we applied to YC with, and then PG said, "Do you have any other ideas?"
20:52
And then we said, "Well, we're going to build Craigslist for colleges."
20:54
And then PG said, "Well, that's a great idea."
20:56
And then he uh he funded that idea, and then we launched it at Harvard. We called it WhoList.
21:00
It was Craigslist for for WhoList for Harvard.
21:05
And you know, we got some moderate traction, but it just didn't really take off. like Facebook.
21:10
Well, this is like this is right around the Facebook era, so this idea of starting something in colleges was like you know, just a like everyone was doing that. So that's sort of idea.
21:17
I was also it was in Zuckerberg's class at Harvard, so I was kind of like among that first group of people to get Facebook, so that was interesting inspiration, too.
21:23
And just for listeners, Paul Graham, the founder of Y Combinator, and your co-founder, Jared, was is now one of the senior partners at Y Combinator, right?
21:32
Yeah, yeah, we we did Y Combinator back in '06, the second class, and now he's one of the big partners there.
21:37
So yeah, we're very connected to YC.
21:38
And tell us how you made your first revenue.
21:43
Uh well, I guess the the first the first revenue we we we shared publicly was Yeah, the first year we actually did we didn't make any revenue.
21:54
Um and around Christmas time of our the first year, I played saxophone on the street corner and made $17, and we put that in the company's bank account.
22:01
And then we we put on the on the website said how do how do you make money?
22:05
And we said Trip plays sax on the street corner sometimes.
22:10
Um and uh that that was our first $70.
22:11
But then I think the next the next year we got an ad model going and we started making decent revenue, and we got pretty pretty quick after that first year.
22:19
Uh Trip, tell us what are your main lessons that you learned from the very long and successful journey you had with Scribd.
22:27
Um I mean, I think like over Yeah, I was I ran that company for 17 years, and I think like I've just learned so many lessons that I just uh I I think the lesson is like the more the more you do this, the more you learn and the better you get at it.
22:39
So I I think entrepreneurship is a a learned skill, and it is just one thing, it's a lot of things.
22:44
So I think if you just spend time working on it, you get better and better with time.
22:47
Um uh like what are specific lessons?
22:49
Um I mean, I think things that we've done really well with Create by Humans that I may learn from Scribd like one is we've we've started with like trying to solve a really big idea.
23:00
Um you know, I think if you start your company with like a very meaningful purpose, um, everything else kind of falls out of that very naturally.
23:05
Um, so I think we we've started with a really big idea.
23:08
I think at Scribd we were too much of this this mindset of just like, well, like how do we grow traffic? How do we grow revenue?
23:13
Without starting with like a really meaningful uh, really meaningful problems.
23:17
I think that was a a key lesson.
23:19
Start with a really big idea.
23:21
Um, another another thing is I think just like getting the team right is extremely important.
23:25
The team and the culture.
23:26
Um, like if you get that right, everything else just sort of like flows naturally.
23:31
Um, so I mean we have you know, we've been really deliberate in setting the team, setting the culture.
23:36
Uh, I mean we defined our cultural values in like the first month of the company with a new company.
23:39
So we're very deliberate in building the culture.
23:43
Um, just yeah, have a big big idea, have a good team and culture and and you have a just a really high bar for excellence, right?
23:50
I mean, uh, it really does make a you know, the difference between an A+ product and an A- product is a a huge difference in terms of how successful you're going to be.
23:58
So just, you know, really focus on building a great high-quality product.
24:01
When you and I first met, we really bonded over a love of music and a love of surfing.
24:05
You're a saxophone player.
24:07
How do you think your the creative side of who you are plays a role in what you're doing at Creative by Humans?
24:13
Um, well, I think as a a founder and CEO, you you have to be really creative, right?
24:18
I mean it's it's a little bit like being an artist, right?
24:20
You're constantly creating and you're you're you're storytelling and you're um, yeah, it's a little bit like an art project.
24:27
So I think I think like um, there's a creative element to it.
24:29
Uh, I mean I've never been like a professional creative.
24:33
I've never actually made money off my creative works. I accept the $17. I accept the $17. That's good. That's good point. $17.
24:39
Um, uh, but but I've gotten to know uh, creatives just really well through through, you know, all my work, especially at Scribd.
24:47
I've just gotten to know the industry and the importance of building a business model around creativity.
24:54
Um, I mean there there's a I mean the reason why we have a lot of creative output in in in in the world is in large part there's like these creative industries have been built out over the last like, you know, in the book in the case of books it's been around 600 years.
25:04
So, there's a whole industry for supporting, you know, storytelling and writing and creating books.
25:09
Um, and I've just learned the importance of having uh, those industries in place and those business models in place.
25:14
And, you know, we just we don't want to see those those go away.
25:18
Um, and just because AI is such a big moment doesn't mean we should throw out these these systems that have produced so much creativity over time.
25:24
So, that's what we're trying to do is is uh, build a system where we can protect these creative industries, but also help them kind of get to the new help them, you know, find their role in this new AI era. Love that.
25:33
And tell me a bit about the name Created by Humans and how you think about, you know, what copyright could look like in 10 years from now.
25:42
Yeah, we called it Created by Humans cuz we want to be the company that that sticks up for human creative creative work and just human creativity in general.
25:49
Um, yeah, it sounds kind of like a a silly name for an AI company cuz um, you know, everyone yeah, I told I told I told uh, Paul Graham about the idea recently and he was like, "Oh, that's really retro."
26:02
Um, and uh, um, but that's kind of the point, right? It's created by humans. ai.
26:05
We're we're the AI company that cares about human creative works and we're um, we're, you know, we we want to stand out and be in that company that's sticking up for human creativity.
26:13
Um, and um, yeah, our logo we we designed this little this little face uh, um, that's part of the logo and um, you know, we envision it being the new copyright symbol.
26:23
Um, uh, we we envision this being something that that humans put on their creative work to indicate it was created by humans not by AI.
26:30
And um, you know, we we think human creativity needs to be protected at all costs.
26:35
Uh, but we also don't want it siloed off from the world of AI.
26:37
We want to bring these two worlds together.
26:40
Um, and um, yeah, that's why we've created this this logo and and, you know, hopefully one day you'll you'll open a book and you'll see the Created by Humans symbol on there to know it was a human creative work. No doubt. Excited to see that.
26:51
We ask we we end every podcast by asking our guests what it is about them that's allowed them to achieve what they've achieved.
26:58
And in your case, what do you think it is?
27:02
Um I mean, I think I'm really just persistent and committed.
27:05
Um I mean, I just really stick stick with things.
27:07
Um I mean, at Scribd there were like a lot of a lot of moments where it looked like, you know, like it was not looking good and um I just kind of stuck with it and powered powered through it.
27:17
Um you know, I think like having had a lot a lot of those like near-death company experiences just really really teach you a lot.
27:25
And um and nowadays when we hit we hit a road bump, I'm just like, you know, much more comfortable kind of handling those moments just given I've been through um through a lot of those kinds of experiences.
27:34
Um I mean, I think I'm pretty flexible in my thinking.
27:36
I, you know, I'm pretty like committed to the to the vision and to a certain, you know, I I problem we're solving, but like I mean, our, you know, we're we're very flexible in our thinking and we're we're constantly evolving our our our model.
27:49
So, um so, I think it's just, you know, sticking with it and being being nimble and um and just uh learning as you go.
27:57
What about the team around you, Trip?
27:58
What what are you looking for for others which they are brilliant at, which might be stuff you're not good at or not interested yourself as a CEO?
28:06
Yeah, I think you want to build a team that balances out your skill set.
28:07
Um and um I I started the company with two co-founders.
28:11
So, one is um Edward, who's our CTO, who's uh just, you know, builds really great uh really great products, hires really good engineers, really in the weeds and um all over the the the technical details everything.
28:25
And then our other co-founder is um is Jen, who is kind of marketing, operations.
28:29
Um she uh worked with me at Scribd for for 8 years.
28:34
Uh we just have a lot of experience working together.
28:36
So, I I between the three of us, like we just kind of round out all the different the different skills.
28:41
Um uh yeah, I mean, I I I I don't It's hard hard to explain exactly how it works but we've got a good we we've kind of got the the all the the key buckets checked.
28:51
Um I mean I think um I think getting your founding team right is is extremely important.
28:57
I mean I think a lot like one of the main reasons I think companies fail is like the co-founders get into a fight and it doesn't work out.
29:03
Um so I think if you get that that co-founder dynamic right I mean that can carry the that can carry the company very far.
29:11
Do you Is that something you work on with your co-founders?
29:12
How do you cuz you work with these people for a long time now.
29:14
How do you maintain that relationship?
29:16
Do you have any kind of methods in terms of talking about stuff, being open with each other about how things are going in terms of your relationship, not the company?
29:22
Or things you do together?
29:26
Um well I mean I I like to just be really open and honest about about everything.
29:30
So um you you know you you want to constantly be very just open about what the challenges are, what needs to be solved.
29:38
Like if if you're you know if there's a problem it's a lot better to just surface that problem for everyone to know right away.
29:43
Um and and just be completely transparent so everyone can really be uh true thought partners on what you're building.
29:51
Well, thank you so thank you so much Trip.
29:53
We are so proud to be backers of your company at Created by Humans and uh think you're doing something very important for the world and thank you for sharing your giant idea with us today.
30:02
Well I'm proud to be a giant company and thanks for having me here. Thanks Trip.