it's so lovely to see you look so well so do you you look great where are you you're in l.a you're at home in london no i meant this a boy thank god for that because i was like why did you like develop a poncho for posh chairs it's the most inappropriate location for you to be sitting when you've made an album as vibrant and as young and as just on its toes as this album is
um i sort of feel like we should be doing this interview while we're just go dancing in the middle of a nightclub i want to pull it apart in the most beautiful way i can over the course of this conversation but um first of all i just want to ask you once again and maybe i've asked you this question every time you put an album out so let's just create a timeline of them
how do you feel when you let go of something and now you have to really let it go for us to be able to appreciate it and if you could put into words on your third album proper how you feel on the verge of releasing this album love goes oh gosh um i feel relieved there's always that there was always a relief and i feel a bit emotional even that now just sitting
here like talking about this record i feel super emotional about it because it's the last two years have been a really really mad time you know of experimentation of finding myself you know with with my my gender expression with so much that has happened the last two years it's it it's captured in this music and i basically i really set myself free with this record
and i just went in the studio and i tried to home in on my abilities as a topliner and learn from the best for me it was a risk for me for me making pop the way i did and the sessions i did was was a was risk taking for me because i was literally in a in a suit with a with my shirt up you know being crooner for for five years well i want to talk to you about that
you know because it's like i i feel like this album certainly from the from the minute it starts as you reclaiming your youth and reclaiming the childhood or not the childhood but certainly the experiences that most young people are afforded reclaiming some of that back because a majority of the first half of your 20s was spent appealing through great great music but to an audience who would never have
understood an album like this at the gate yeah they wanted timeless soul music and pop music is that fair to say yeah 100 100 and i'd still i'm actually i'm writing the next one now like i always do and i want to i'll slow down i haven't got my hair around this one yeah but i've um i know i still love song music so much but it's i felt in the lonely hour and
everything began so naturally for me and then as soon as you added fame and success and um a fan base and all these things into the mix um the music started to change and it still was honest but it was what i thought i wanted people to hear instead of me actually like creatively jumping and being scared and being out my comfort zone and when i listen to this album that's what
i can hear when i listen back i'm like you know i'm all over the shop one track i'm doing this one track i'm doing that and that's kind of where i was at during that year i was i was all over the place trying to trying to put together the pieces a little bit did you feel like you were all beyond your ears a bit sometimes when you were touring some of these previous songs and
albums that in a weird way you kind of aged yourself before your time yeah yeah yeah 100 i think i mean to be honest the suits started happening because i was getting bigger and when i got my record here i just started spending money on really rich foods and so i just started so i just started to get as i was getting bigger the only way to hide was to wear a suit
and then before i knew it i was like in this crooner zone and i you know me i've always been a bit of an old soul but at the same time i've got same time i'm a club kid and i love a drink well listen i mean but that's also part of the kind of coping mechanisms of getting through it to some degree when you're young and you're out there and people want to hear you sing these songs and
you're selling a ton of records and everyone's telling you your dreams to come true be happy be happy your dreams have come true and perhaps there's a part of you that still feels like as insecure as you did when you started trying to express yourself to music in the first place those two things become at odds with each other over time you should be happy you should be happy but
i was always unhappy yeah yeah and i don't know how this is supposed to make me happy is you know i've i've seen this over and over again with artists were you kind of trying to cope with that as well was that all part of the the big chemistry of success of course i was sold this dream when i was a kid i was like okay so i was feeling lonely i was feeling isolated as a kid i was feeling sad then
i realized i could sing and then um everyone telling me that i was good at singing felt really really good and then that carried on and then i thought oh my gosh you know if i take this further and further and further i'm gonna i'm gonna fill this little hole inside of me that i have and it's going to be all wonderful and everything's going to be great um but
everyone's applauding is it's like it's like a drug and you're loving it and you're loving it and then i hit 24 and i was like i'm never going to be happy unless i'm happy in my own skin unless i actually like who i am don't you start to feel a little bit of a little bit of shame almost at the fact that everyone loves you and you don't necessarily love yourself oh completely
i feel like when i made in the lonely hour i wanted to perform at wembley stadium i had this i like i manifested it in my head i was like i want to be at wembley stadium i want to be the biggest singer ever you know that i was so driven um that i was willing to put everything aside including my happiness to get to that place and and uh i couldn't do it just absolutely couldn't
do it what created the whole are you any closer to working that out oh what created the desire to reach people in the first place i think a huge part of it was being queer you know being young and i was brought up in a my family were amazing with it i came out but i came out when i was 10 years old and so i was out as a as a gay person at 10. at 14 i was wearing makeup and female clothing
all throughout school so i was i was so out of the closet for such a long time that all of that time was was was loneliness time as well because i had no one around me that thought like me who who was openly gay around me at all in my life um until i was 19 20 when i became well known so i think that was the whole for sure was this this not being enough just that feeling
i think that all queer kids have when the when they're younger you know you're brought up in a world where you're told that it's not okay to be what you are and that's really really hard i mean to have the self-awareness and the bravery to be able to realize at an age like 10 years old that you are who you are and you want to make it known and you want those closest to you to
adapt accordingly to the person that you naturally are rather than somebody that society assumes you should be is such a huge step and it's a step that a lot of people take a lot longer yeah were there moments even though your family were great about it where perhaps they felt because of your age that this decision shouldn't be taken as seriously as as
maybe others or how did you make them understand at the age of 10 where everyone's experimenting with ideas and concepts of who they might want to be that that you were dead serious that you'd realize this at such a young age i mean it was pretty obvious saying i mean i was mary poppins for the first seven years of my life like i was i was i was the campus kid in the world like i
was my parents just always knew and it wasn't a surprise to them or i shocked them at all i think they were just constantly worried because i think they grew up um in school with people being you know really have a leading hard life mentally yeah so they were worried for me for sure but it's a weird thing to think back and look at because i was always taught to say how lucky i
was because i was like i've came out my parents didn't abandon me i'm all good but then you actually get to this age and you're like still even though all of those things were great um even though i've been so lucky and privileged it's still difficult life is still hard you had the work to do yeah for sure for sure listen you've been so transparent through your music
and telling your story um it should come as no surprise to that this album with a song like young opens with probably the most honest expression that you could have shared which is just a very sharp deep jaw of breath yeah yeah yeah to me that's just like it's it's just the most beautiful way to start the album everyone normally tries to iron those those those details out and
you just made it really clear that that i'm gonna to me it sounds like you know i'm now going to take a big step forward and this is a this is a big moment for me that's what that breath represents am i looking too deeply into it or is there some symbolism no joe it makes that's so nice you picked up on that actually it's really cool i just i wanted to start the album with
this song because it's it's like a declaration you know before i start the record there's some there's some guilty pleasures on that record you know i wasn't taking myself seriously with some of these songs like i was going nuts and we were like a lot of people will listen to some of these songs and be like whoa this i do not like this but it's i had to do it i love
all types of music you know i have a very deep understanding of music and i love very complex music but i also love what a lot of people would say is trashy music and i love the simplicity of trashy music and in being queer as well and going to queer spaces from the age of 18 they play this type of music sometimes they play music that is it's very uh it's just it it's
it's in your face and it's and it's all wrong but it's so right you know they call it guilty pleasures but i don't know is that such thing should make you feel guilty for liking anything exactly i don't even know what that means yeah yeah completely and that's what i tried to access in the record actually was that the tracks can flip and flop and change you know it's okay
we're going to go through some of these key moments um the ones that people will consider timeless sam smith moments uh the ones that you that you fear people might consider trash you but i think these are the dying days of your of your guardedness my friend because i think this album is start to finish a joy to listen to but it retains at its core this desire to share your experience of
unrequitedness of of of lost love there are very few people who are able to put into words the way you do and yes you're dancing whilst you're telling these stories but these stories to some degree remain at the core of who you are you know i i wonder whether or not the expectation of others throughout your life and particularly your career has somehow transferred into your
expectation of relationships in your personal life and what they're supposed to match up to yeah yeah completely yeah i've sometimes when i'm with someone i think i'm with what i think we could be instead of what we actually are you know sometimes the idea yeah get addicted to the to living in the future and addicted because it's a comfort you know when when you're in when when now is a
horrible place to be i have the ability to escape to to the future or somewhere else and it's always been comforting whereas now i'm learning to just sit in the moment but um i definitely do that with relationships too it's tough on the people you win relationships with and i think a lot of times when the singer sings of heartache then the fans empathize with the singer
and i think what i hear on this album for the first time really is the self-realization that maybe you haven't been the easiest person to connect with and that it's been tough for others too oh completely 100 it's a horrible thing to admit this album is about a certain relationship and it's my first ever relationship um that i had all my relationships have
been formed for four to five months but this was the first biggie i'd say um and i awakened me sexually awakened so many parts of me it was a trial for sure and i was dealing with so much so much in my head whilst going through it there's a song called forgive myself on the album and that was actually it it's towards the end of the album but it's actually i actually wrote at the beginning
and that was the the big thing is like i don't have you here anymore to to talk through this or to to take the blame or anything i've got to figure this all out by myself now and to do that i've got to i've got to accept that maybe i wasn't great as well this is something that started you know with an album title when you dated your album we saw millions and millions of
copies around the world is called in the lonely hour i think really this sounds to me especially on the song you just mentioned um which is a beautiful song and and my only complaint is i felt it should have been sooner up the album because of what it represents to the narrative of the album right it feels like you've had to get to that point through the course of listening to the
other but i feel like you were already there when you started writing yeah and so for me it's like that song is a representation of the journey that began within the lonely hour which is when you're in that space on your own and you haven't got anyone to pump you up that's when the that's when you really have to face those things down and you obviously weren't able to do that on
album one right you just weren't there yet no no and i didn't have therapy i know it sounds crazy but like when this when this i was so heartbroken therapy is great it's incredible i was so heartbroken when writing this record more the i'd say the first proper time i've been actually heartbroken like that feeling of like they're gone you can't sleep
like the really really bad feeling um the feeling that my mother dreaded us me and my sisters to feel and i really i really really felt it and um yeah i i it was this is kind of the first proper heartbreak album i've ever written i'd say because the others were the idea of it yeah the others were the idea of it and and it was pure and acquired love this i i i would like to say that we loved each
other so i i definitely definitely loved loved him so it's yeah it was proper what did you listen to what did you turn to in this moment as a friend musically to help you soundtrack this experience really important selections during a time like this when your emotions are at their absolute peace honestly i i i was on tour when i was feeling heartbroken so i
was trying to get through shows um every other night or oh couple nights in a row whilst it was happening so so i turned to divas i was like the only way i'm going to get off my ass and get out of bed is if i channel my beyonce if i channel my christina and my you know all these all these divas and i turn to them and i robin for me was huge on this record just listening to her non-stop
because i could dance and be sad at the same time and feel empowered but yeah i like like always i have this little box i can go to whenever i'm down and it's it's all full of strong women um who remind me of my mom and they remind me of my sisters and all the women in my life and when i'm in those dark places it's the women that get me through it to be honest
it's a box of fabulousness you know and what i love about the diva mentality bde is as ariana and i call it a big diva energy is that it what what it does what it does is it thank you it celebrates the challenges in the most fabulous way it celebrates all the doubters and all the haters and all the people that got in one's way and ultimately establishes a path to victory regardless of how other
people feel and i feel like perhaps that music sort of ultimately informed this record when did you realize that this record was going to be your diva album is it by diva rabbi visit it's parts parts yeah i don't see how you can say dance till you love someone else isn't a modern dvd diamonds is a diva song i'm sorry diamonds is a diva song yeah it is it is it is there's
diva songs all over it to be honest it's general order was like the way i've talked about this record now as i say it's like an exorcism it was like a sexy exorcism it was like a sexism a sexism that sounds so bad zayn and it's like i basically got to the point day where i was like i'm 27 years old right now 27 years old and if i'm gonna dance and sexercise myself i need to do it now
well i'm going to talk about diamonds for for a second because it's an exercise in in character development really and what's really interesting about it for me is the way that it lands on the record coming off a song like young and perhaps your most interesting vocal performance on record yet is the last verse as the last part of young where you feel capable and confident enough to not
put your voice on display at the highest possible level because everyone knows you're one of the greatest voices alive today but you actually show this very very deep personal side of your of your vocal which i love and then it goes into the song diamonds which almost fast forwards to the end of this experience to go from young to a life lived was that very deliberate in the
way that you positioned it because it's it's the most kind of i don't know like age-orientated experience as a songwriter i think i've heard you do yeah yeah i i wanted to just have a shock that was just there and it was like it's into the fabulousness because that's the when with the whole sentiment of young it's like go out dance kiss guys you know and and
diamonds is something to me it's a song to me that i would be listening to in the clubs that i would be that i would be flipping my hair to and going for it too so i wanted it to to smack into that i really did you know the next song on the record is called another one and this is you know where the the dance floor shows up but again in this kind of very robin
influenced restrained environment where you're dancing but it's also very thoughtful very heartbreaking song um the ultimate moment of letting go letting somebody go was that a tough one for you to to finish him to write given that it was such a clear connection to the personal experience this is honestly my favorite song i've ever done it's my favorite song i've ever done
this song i just adore it i've listened to it more than i've ever listened to any song i've ever done i've i wrote this with nuni um linus and nooni in la and i found out something on the morning before and i got in the studio and this song just completely just came out and we ended up like sitting on their balcony having some champagne and we were just dancing in the sunlight to
this song and i love how honest this song is i love it to sing it feels like it feels it feels beautiful to sing what i love about it is i'm trying to sound i think i'm trying to sound nice in these lyrics as in like i'm cool i'm cool with it it's fine i was convincing myself that i was so over it it's you know beautifully barbed in its gentleness it's it's this thing
that gets under your skin this song because you feel like to some degree yeah wow sam has got to a point where forgiveness is paramount but it's not entirely there yeah it's not entirely there completely and i felt through the record actually you start young starts the record and diamonds and another one is is young i'm young when i'm talk what i'm talking about is i'm still blaming
and i'm pointing the finger and i'm being sassy and i'm saying i'm over it when i'm not and then as as it goes further through the record i i sit down a little bit more and i'm like okay no no no it's not it's this was both of us the world that we're in right now and even the industry as a micro within that macro experience has no doubt changed into over time from
the from the from the boy you were at school trying to establish your queerness in an environment that didn't understand and yet you're still transphobic and homophobic and anti-queer attitudes that permeate through not just the world but this business i want to talk a little bit more about that from your experience because as someone who's done so much towards establishing the
queer voice in an in this environment and yet it still sounds to me like you're hyper aware of the challenges that still that are still faced yeah i mean it's everywhere zayn it's hard i can't i mean i never want to get into it too much because everyone everyone go nuts if i do but it's it's high why would they go why would they no it's something that's heavy that's
hap that's that's obviously going on in in everywhere you know around the world at the moment but i'm up against it i mean you've just got to look at all the crib how many queer people there are in in the charts right now to know that you know and and how many queer movies there are in the world and how many queer actors our actors we have and and how all these things you know you've
it's it's very obvious i think in front of us that we're not we're not where we should be and there's stories that aren't being told and chances that aren't being given to people because people aren't ready for it maybe yet and uh maybe it's not where the money is you know that's the truth of it i'm finding it hard sometimes to navigate myself through it because you
sometimes one can feel like their dreams are capped because of because of their their expression and who they are so you can only get so far because you know it's not going to reach the masses that message isn't going to reach the masses which can be a hard pill to swallow it's so conflicting isn't it i can imagine because on the one hand yes you want to feel like you can go and
achieve all that is in your heart based on the talent and the passion you have and the work ethic that you're willing to put into it and the disappointment of feeling like that is not available to you and your peers yeah but also when i'm saying this i just want to make it very clear this is not woe is me like it's not where is me i'm i'm more speaking up for
other people other queer people who who won't even get a core to where i've got to because of because of them being black or trans or you know all these things you know self-awareness is really important right now we need a lot of self-awareness in order to create a greater awareness i and i totally understand um you're jumping in to say that and i think it's
it shows that you're hyper aware of the need to help from an empathetic point of view rather than from a self-obsessive point of view but the point i was going to make was that there was some freedom in knowing that the only dreams that truly matter are your own and the only expectations that truly matter are your own and that ultimately by serving your own purpose as you've done on this record
and making the record that's in your heart you are doing great work towards climbing over these walls and showing people that you're not going to be beholden to the things that you've earned that can hold you down yeah that's that's actually such a beautiful way to put it and then something that i remind myself every day you know like i i always say wembley stadium because i
never performed there and it's my dream but performing on wembley stadium dressed in what i was dressed in five years ago and singing another two albums worth of songs that sounded like the songs from the first record i would not be happy and i'd rather never play that place in that way because i'd only ever want to do it as me i'd only ever want to be dancing on that stage you