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How are you?
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>> I'm very very good actually.
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Yeah, I feel um >> I feel happy to be in LA in these new offices. >> Mhm.
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>> Yeah, it's nice, isn't it? >> Yeah, it's beautiful. It's nice change.
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>> We're still in our honeymoon period because every time an artist comes in for the first time like this is nice and I'm like yeah, we've been here for 8 months, but I'm so nice to hear it.
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It's like >> it's lovely.
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So, it's nice to be in LA.
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I'm just very excited to release >> this music.
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It's also, I've got to admit, it's strange to talk >> about it right now.
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>> Just to talk in general.
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I haven't done interviews in a while. >> Yeah.
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>> I've done like a few sit down like >> um chats with some journalists recently and I did the call with you recently, but I haven't spoken in a long time.
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>> Well, you're in good company because you already know how I feel about this album because I've told you. >> Yes. Yes.
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And when I got your text, it just made me so so happy. >> It made me so happy.
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I've I've I put so much into this record that it's um more than ever.
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>> So, and it's become more um necessary than any other album to to uh not read responses. >> Yeah.
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>> And so, the only time I ever hear opinions about it is if someone texts me or tells me to my face. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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Well, it's I love that and I I love that for you to get to a place where perception is no longer the driving force.
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you know, the feeling that you have that you put into this music and that remains and so however anyone perceives it or decides to try to critique it in the wider world is like fantastic.
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Let's just keep that at bay for as long as possible. >> Yeah, exactly.
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I'm I'm I think I've finally realized that my job is to express. >> Yes.
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>> And just leave it at that. >> Yes.
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It's such a beautiful, nurturing, honest body of music.
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M >> I've lived with it now for a while and I what I really love about it is that you're not shying away from from big big topics, >> but they are the they are the universal topics of of life.
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They are, you know, how do I feel about myself?
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Do I feel good enough about myself to embrace the love of somebody else? Is it pure? Is it real? Can I hold on to it? Am I scared? Am I invigorated?
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>> But it's just beautifully captured on this record.
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And I want to talk about as much as you want to talk about.
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>> I'll talk about it all day.
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But I think we need to pick up where you left off because you know you I feel like I was going to say exorcised.
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It kind of was an exorcism of some description in the most beautiful creative way. >> 100%.
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[laughter] That's what it felt like to me.
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>> It was a full-blown exorcism.
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Uh and we loved it every single second of it.
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Um >> be careful saying that word.
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You'll kick up the wrong people.
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I've learned >> I can't kick it up anymore.
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You already kicked it up, mate.
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I'm just in the vapor trail.
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There's nothing [laughter] you haven't already set fire to.
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[clears throat] I loved every second of that era of life and I feel like it it served a big big like point in your life beyond just the making of the music which is everything but also maybe it was a gateway to freedom.
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Is that how it felt coming out the other end of it? >> Oh yeah 100% 100%.
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It felt like a really messy birth.
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messy birth. M >> um it was it was um it was a musically it was I I I'd always I'd been working my way my album three Love Goes and Gloria I've been working that whole time to get to a song like Unholy >> I think [snorts] the way that people
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knew of me as an artist from my first album the the the type of artist I was at the beginning when I was like 21 >> Yeah, >> you know, I think I was so hungry to um to kind of change the way I was perceived, but also just to express um parts of myself that that were me. And
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And so when I got unholy, I and and when I started to feel the reaction from people when they, you know, I I I was so in love with that song.
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Um but I was fully expecting everyone to be like, "Not for me."
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>> Cuz that that's the reaction you got from even some of the closest people around you.
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We talked a little bit about that that it was like >> we hear this, but are you sure you want to actually lead with this and show this to people? >> Yeah.
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I think that certain I think there's ways that queer people express themselves through pop music that um a lot of the straight people I am around in life.
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>> Um they hear that and it turns them off.
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And lucky for me, >> the general public and and and younger people are are more comfortable with hearing queer things.
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>> And lucky for me, I brought that song out and it landed in this beautiful way.
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And I just felt like it was permission to >> to to to go for it.
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And honestly, this album, Hazel Eyes, is kind of the next reaction after that because I was like, "Oh, wow. I can now sing my song. >> Yeah.
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>> And I can now really do what I want to do and it and it just made me feel safe to be myself and so I feel freed in that.
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If we're reflecting on the steps to get to this point before we really begin in earnest talking about Hazel Eyes, um, how does how does the how does the your third album make you feel about your second album, which to me is one of those sort of really important steps for you in terms of letting go of Lonely Hour, >> but also realizing there's Road to Run, but you hadn't left it behind entirely.
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And so, how how what are your thoughts about your second album and and and your relationship with that?
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If it was a human being, what would you say to it?
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you know, >> oh my god, it just it just all deserves a big beautiful hug.
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I think fame what I went through >> Yeah. >> in terms of fame.
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It's um you know, I think a lot of artists go through that what a lot of artists don't go through is being openly gay and queer >> and receiving that amount of fame.
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>> And it was that album was so huge.
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And then the more I people realized I was gay and queer, >> um, the more my a my audience went became massive and then slowly started to get smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and I still have a really big audience which is absolutely fantastic which is gorgeous.
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I'm totally fine but the first album put me on this trajectory that was you know >> my straight counterpart.
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It's like, "Oh my god, this is incredible."
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>> And that's a quite an interesting realization, isn't it?
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Cuz you realize the success ultimately at that point when it reaches that scale, it's it's more on everyone else's terms, then it's like, "Oh, I can only be successful if I'm who you perceive me to be." >> Yes.
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>> When you get to know who I truly am, that might, oh, is it real success then?
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Do we really have a relationship here, or is it only on your terms? Is that fair to say? >> Oh, 100% 100%.
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It was that that's exactly how it felt. Yeah.
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>> You know, I think I was kind of one of the first queer people who was out from the beginning of my career >> to achieve that type of success.
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>> And that was a lot to hold as a child and a lot to understand.
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And so I think a lot of my albums and the music that came after the in the lonely hour were recovery. Yeah.
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recovery. Yeah. and trying to trying to figure out who who I was, what I was meant to say, dealing with the pressures from industry which allowed >> and um so it's trying to deal with that and then also trying to appease the audience and and then also dealing with
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you know the the life change that that that comes with uh becoming famous at 21 years old >> and growing into yourself >> 25 26 27 leaving that person behind trying to figure out who the real you you want to take with you for the rest of your life is. >> Yes. I mean, the whole the whole time >> Yes.
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I mean, the whole the whole time from in the lonely hour on like I've always been non-binary.
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It's >> my um always been my um who I am.
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And so I just found the vocabulary for that when I was like 27.
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So that was another coming out experience.
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And finally, here we are and I'm fully [snorts] out the closet [laughter] and there's no more coming out for me now, which is a really freeing thing.
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>> There's so much joy in this record and space.
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I I I think that really speaks to the space on this record.
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It doesn't sound >> claustrophobic or like it's trying to wrestle its way out of of a of any kind of restraint.
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There's no restraint here. >> No, no, no.
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It's um it's uh it's a record that is made with love.
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There is love woven through the whole thing.
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And um the main my partner is a huge part of that.
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But >> the Simon Aldred, the man who made this record with me, >> I wrote a song called Leave Your Love with him on my first album.
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and he was the first ever gay man that I ever met within the music industry at 20 years old, 21 years old.
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And he just took me under his wing and he always said to me, you know, when you're ready and um it's time and you want to sit and you want to like make a a record from start to finish with with one person and like go into it, he said, "I would be honored and want to be a part of that with you."
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And so when it came time for me to want to do that properly, um, I I I did it with him and I just had the best memories I've ever had making music with him and with all the people that got involved.
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Amazing amazing man called David Odam, Ruth O'Brien, Leslie, Shazad Feist, and just like in this beautiful little safe bubble of people >> catching me at a time.
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It took a lot of courage to do what I what I did on this album.
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If I'm honest, to come from the album before, to go to this, it's it's really scary to be in those nonpop rooms, even though I still think this music's pop, >> it's um it was scary for me.
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I was so used to having three days session with this person and then moved to have another few days session with this person.
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I was very used to being a hoe.
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>> And [laughter] this was this was and I no judgment on on the pop ho >> thing because I'm still a hoe and will always be [laughter] like cuz I love pop music.
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But it was just it was nice to just take a minute >> to step away from the rules and um and just and just sing my heart out.
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It was like it was just free singing the whole time.
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>> I I pressed play on it for the first time.
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First of all, you sent it to me.
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I was very grateful for that.
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And then I took a few days to really find the right place to press play.
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So it wasn't just music in tandem with what's going on in my day.
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I wanted to and I was on vacation and I just went for a walk.
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Felt a really quiet place where I could be on my own for an hour and just press play on it and I was just like Sam.
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I was just all the all the feelings. >> Oh, good.
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>> It was so beautiful and it and it felt like a gift. >> Yeah. Thank you.
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>> But I know it's been a gift for you and I want to talk about the creativity of it.
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Um, I really want to lean into the process of making this record a bit more than we have in the past.
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I think we talk a lot about your making of music, but there's also so much life we can talk about, but I feel on this record with your friends, you know, you you captured a spirit and a and a like a [snorts] there is an air to this record.
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You've you've kept the air >> on the record. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. And Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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I mean, I've been like a defender of the space the whole time because you just [snorts] it it's like um it's so performance-based this record.
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You you'd be singing again and again and again and again and it's just there's one take, one moment where everyone dances together >> and when you get it, you it really hard to replicate. >> Yeah.
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>> You know, a lot of the record is not done to click.
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It's just hovering in the air and then trying to fit the instruments into that.
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I I just learned so much as a producer on this record and and and what I bring to the table.
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Like, >> you know, I'm not sitting on the desk.
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So, I'm more of like an like a visual kind of I'm like a dancer in the studio is the only way to explain it.
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like I move my body and I let my body explain what I need from from music and I always have, you know.
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Um, and so I really stepped into that power this time and and and brought to the room, to the writing room, to the studio my the best of me and what I can bring.
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>> Pure instinct and feeling. Yeah.
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Look and being in the moment.
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I mean, so much of the creative process, if we allow it to be, can be this cerebral experience.
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Don't get me wrong, analysis is an important part of completion, but if you let it take control, uh it removes you from what you're actually trying to experience, which is the feeling.
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That's the translatable experience. >> Yes.
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You know, before people would play and record on this record, I I would put them into the zone of what the song's actually about. >> How did you do that?
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What was your process to do that?
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>> I mean, I would just set the scene of what the song's about, and it would not be the kind of watered down version of it.
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It would be it would be the you know a lot of the times when I would explain the song to people I' I'd be crying sometimes or cackling laughing and or or angry and so I tried to get into the place myself [snorts] of of where I was when I wrote that song and in that moment and then talk to the musicians and and get them in that place too and get them to learn the part and then to get freaky with it.
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And that was the most the funnest part for me of this whole thing is >> the surprises. >> Yeah.
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I heard sounds and ways of playing that I never knew existed.
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You know, I'm I'm I'm a I'm I'm a I'm a pop star and I've been in rooms making pop music, which I love, >> but for me, some of my favorite pop music is pushing the the boundaries a little bit.
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And and Unholy is a perfect example of that.
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I >> I that song was done in pure play mode, like fun, >> and I I I tried to execute every single song on that record with the same intention.
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But the rule was all live instruments, no tuning.
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Um, just complete straight up soul confessional music.
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And it had to be in this I created this place in my head, the whole record.
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It was like this sepia world of the >> what it is. It's totally what it is.
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It's the hue of a room without a direct bulb in eyesight. Yes. Yes.
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And for me that felt radical because queer love, non-binary love, for me I never saw um I never saw that on the global world stage.
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And so I wanted this album to feel a little bit oldworld.
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I wanted it to feel like a like a a vintage.
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>> This isn't an invention.
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This is just tapping into an existing energy. >> It's romance. It's romance. It's old school romance.
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But I am non-binary and I am openly in love >> in the world on this planet as what for well we've always been here but >> this is a unique story. >> Yeah. Radical love. >> Yes.
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dressed in this old beautiful um time timeless but kind of dramatically timeless.
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You know that that's what I wanted it to be. >> Oh my god.
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I've been searching for a way to describe you as long as I've been friends with you. Dramatically timeless. Jack, we got it.
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>> I was explaining the music, not me.
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>> They're dramatically dramatic.
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>> No, they're dramatically timeless.
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People, I'm sorry to break that to you, but we finally know exactly who Sam Smith is.
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Ah, [laughter] what was the song that unlocked it all for you?
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The song to be free was the first song that unlocked the the kind of the ride.
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>> What was the one that when it was being arranged and written and you heard what it would sound like and feel like in the room unlocked the the quickest most powerful emotion for you?
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>> Honestly, it's the song Hazel Eyes. >> Yeah.
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That song to me is just beautiful >> and it's so it's just so openhearted and and I really fought for we wrote so many choruses to that that didn't feel right >> and then we found the one and it's just feels like a lifetime I've waited to sing a song like that about someone and >> so openly and freely it and it yeah it just I love that song so much.
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Yeah, because love for you and I can say this because we've spoken about it in the context of music has been messy >> up until that point.
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[laughter] >> Yeah, I guess.
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Yeah, it's been more than anybody else in their own story, but it has been you've written songs about >> Well, look, trying to trying to trying to like, you know, I've said this to you before as as queer people, especially growing up in the village. I did.
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You you don't really start experiencing your first relationships.
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I didn't until I was um I was 22 or three when I had my first boyfriend.
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But that was a very short beautiful romance.
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>> Um luckily now for young kids in certain parts of the world.
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>> Um they do get to experience gay love and queer love at a young age which is so beautiful but for me it it wasn't that way.
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Also, I was just like this fem big open out the closet thing from such a young age >> that you know I was very intimidating >> and always have been quite intimidating.
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Um so but love to me came a little bit later.
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My first proper relationship I was like 27. So yeah it was messy.
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It was it it was messy and it adding fame and traveling around the world to that.
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It was it it was hard but I have to admit it was messy but I had a lot of fun.
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>> [laughter] >> I had a lot of fun.
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>> We heard that as well.
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>> Yeah, I had a lot of fun.
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And it was like I I talk a lot about how hard it was >> to be fabous but also be and queer, but to be fabous and queer at a young age was also >> really fun because like >> I don't know like I'd walk into gay bars and people would pretty much leave me alone a lot of the time and I was able to like like find normaly in those spaces and um yeah I had a I had a great time.
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So it was messy but it was messy beautiful.
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What have you learned about yourself being so deeply and committedly in love?
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I have learned that I'm that I I'm really I'm too hard on myself.
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I'm way too hard on myself.
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Um I think it's part of why I've I've got to where I've got to in my life and why I do what I do.
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I've it comes from so much baggage, but I I've I've learned to to be softer >> on myself massively.
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>> When we're hard on ourselves, we we then transfer those expectations to the world. >> Mhm.
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>> And that's why nothing's ever good enough, not just for us, but no, nothing ever really measures up.
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>> I just think he's so soft on me.
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He's so gentle with me and so like, you know, that he would never when I've pissed him off loads, he would never think even half of the things I think of myself at times.
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And it's just like you see that through his eyes.
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And you know, we we just we love each other really well and we communicate each other with each other really really well.
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>> And so it's just, you know, every year that we're with each other, I feel like I'm being better with myself. Yeah.
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>> And and easier with myself also.
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Um, Christian's really really funny and Oh, I know.
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And I'm I love I I'm I'm a I can be funny and I I'm a joyous person, but when I'm up, I'm very flow.
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So, when I'm up, I'm really up.
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And then when I'm down, I I can really get into a funk.
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And he's really just brought joy into my life.
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>> And I think that's the biggest thing is that he's he's just like sunshine, which is lovely.
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Being in love in New York is a whole other thing.
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being being free in New York, being in love in New York, and having, you know, road to run is a is a beautiful >> It was never my choice.
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I mean, Chris, my partner is in love with New York. >> Yeah.
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>> New York's the third in our relationship.
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And [laughter] and so it was it was when I met him, it was it was like you have to it's this is where I want to be.
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This is the only place I want to be.
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>> Travel is undeniable part of your life. >> Huge. Yeah.
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Whereas for your partner, they need to find more of a foundation when you're away and they can't be there.
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So, it's it'd be tough for you to sort of say, "Well, hang on a minute.
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I want to live here, but you're not there half the time."
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>> It was a quiet life I was starting to to lead in in England, which was beautiful.
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I was 30 years old, >> which can be dangerous.
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All of a sudden, you find yourself 45, 50, you're tucked away.
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You're what's considered to be a recluse, and it's like, "No, I just chose this this life to live."
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But it creeps up on you, that loneliness.
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>> I think I I wasn't necessarily lonely.
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I was just like uninspired. >> Wow.
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[laughter] >> And so >> that feels like a step towards loneliness. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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But I didn't I didn't get there. I was good with myself. I had my dog.
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I had like a beautiful I was in this beautiful little village actually. >> Yeah. >> Living a lovely life.
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It was it was it was wonderful.
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>> And um but this kind of I met him and then started going to New York more.
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>> And New York has always been calling me from the minute I went.
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like when I was I went when I was 13 and I've had weirdly all of my relationships, all my boyfriends I met in New York, which is strange.
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Also, you know, my partner now actually grew up 10 minutes from my house in Cambridge here. >> That's ridiculous. >> Which is wild. >> That's crazy. >> Yeah.
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So, me like being like a lonely queer kid, the only gay in the village, >> he was just around the corner.
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>> He was around the corner the whole time, which was wild.
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>> Well, you know, my story, right? I mean, we Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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We We've known each other since we were 13. I traveled to London. She traveled to London.
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different passports, different trips, different intentions just for us to meet and ultimately get married. Married for 27 years.
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I met, you know, I traveled halfway around the world to marry a key woman that I've known in Oakuckland. >> It's crazy. It's it's it's wild.
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We're very We're similar.
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We come from the same place.
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>> I don't know if you feel the same way, but I could never I don't think we would have ever got together in Oakuckland.
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I bet you two would have never got together. >> No. Never. Never. Never. Never. >> Yeah. >> And then Yeah.
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And then it just it just New York called me to it.
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And the minute I landed, it was hard to adjust going from quiet like that to intense city.
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>> Um, but now I'm in like a deep love affair with the city. I I it's unbelievable.
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I feel I I walk around and I just I I feel like I have autonomy and um I just feel really free in myself, which is great.
22:20
when you weren't writing, when you're not in the creative space and you're not spending time doing that, how are you in your own company or how are you in your own skin now?
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How are you at at you spending time when you're not focused on the [clears throat] craft?
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>> I am, it depends on the day, but most of the time I'm good. I'm getting better. I've started reading.
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>> Um, >> what kind of books are you reading?
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I've always read on and off but with massive gaps.
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But Lena Donna brought her book out recently and I'm just the biggest Lena Dana fan.
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Like [snorts] >> she's really really really helped me in my life um with her words and her art. Yes, I have. Yeah.
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>> She's amazing and her book just triggered reading for me and I'm realizing that's really calming. I love a bath.
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>> I could have like two baths, two, three baths a day [laughter] if I have the time.
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Like I love to soak in the bath with rose petals. >> Dogs. Cats. >> I've got two dogs. Pickies.
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They're beautiful little ancient Chinese things. And they're so gorgeous.
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Except I'm really allergic to them which makes it Yeah.
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And also we refuse to cut their hair.
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So like the hair is getting longer and longer and longer.
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But it's worth >> So they've got like super abstract philosopher vibes going on.
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>> It's worth It's worth the um It's worth the the sneezing.
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Um [snorts] but I have beautiful dogs.
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This sounds very domestic.
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>> Yeah, I mean I had I had my dog Velma before I met Christian too.
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I was kind of in a domestic space before I met Christian.
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>> Um but yeah, life's good.
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And then when I you know when I'm not but I I still work a lot and after Unholy >> after Gloria the tour and everything.
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This album for me has been a really soft landing place and a beautiful record that's documented this time. Yeah.
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and I've been busy, but I'm now also, you know, getting hungry again to >> to maybe ramp up things as well.
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So, like I'm always I'm juggling art all the time.
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There's not enough time in my life to make the things I need to make.
24:22
>> The love that flows through this album, um, I can imagine at times for you as a writer, even knowing how true it was, felt very, very open and very honest.
24:32
And you you said something really beautiful earlier in the conversation about the courage.
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>> You acknowledge the courage it takes to write music like this for people who don't understand what it's like to write a love song and how challenging it is versus leaning in to the everpresent misery of life.
24:49
>> Can you try to put into words as someone who's written a collection of stunners what it takes to actually get love right on record?
24:55
But for me, um, the hardest part is to capture the the love in the darkness, >> cuz there's hard moments in a relationship that are painful and they don't feel like love. >> Yeah. >> Um, it was so crazy.
25:09
There's a song on the album called Thief.
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>> Which is a You already know. >> Yeah.
25:14
But that's the hard It's the hardest.
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I wasn't going to put it on the album.
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>> No, it's really tough listening. and I did Thief.
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And um the day that we wrote Thief, the night that we wrote Thief was a very intense writing session.
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Um it was very um just just hard for me, quite numbing and I was just in a really dark headspace.
25:36
Um and like and but immediately after I wrote that song, >> I needed immediate relief because I was still in love.
25:45
I was like, "Some has gone down, but I'm still in in love and happy."
25:50
And I needed to feel joy after expressing the sadness.
25:54
And that's when we wrote Love is a Stillness.
25:57
And that Love is a Stillness recording on the album is the actual recording of that moment after writing Thief in my garage, like recording studio back >> to back just back to back.
26:09
And we captured this out out of this horribly dark storm.
26:14
You capture the first ray of sunlight.
26:18
And it's like >> perfect paradox.
26:20
>> And it's and that to me is love.
26:20
That to me I didn't realize is love.
26:22
I thought that when I fell in love I wouldn't be able to access sadness, melancholy, all of the the good stuff that I love in in music a lot of the time.
26:30
And um I I actually realized I captured I can capture it more intensely actually now because now I I think I feel >> deeper things through love than I did before. >> Oh yeah.
26:44
Oh, it tests you in every way. >> Yeah.
26:48
>> You know if it's real. >> Yes.
26:50
>> If it's not the first sign of trouble and you're out the door. >> Yes.
26:53
I mean that was me before.
26:53
You know I I I was a perfectionist and I thought everything had to be perfect.
26:57
But it's actually just working through hard things with someone.
27:01
>> When you reach the other side, there's just nothing like it. >> That's the joy. >> Yeah. It's amazing.
27:05
>> What an amazing experience to go through and find the find the depth of that storytelling and and that truth in the song like Thief, but also hear the way that the musicians nurtured and and gathered around you because the arrangement of that song is loving. >> Yeah.
27:18
But also the big the big beautiful thing here is that Simon Audred, who who wrote the whole record with me, he's in a 20 year relationship with a with a beautiful man called Bruce.
27:27
And >> he was walking me through the through this, not just in the music, but also as a friend, >> you know, walking me through those first two years of a queer relationship.
27:39
two years of a queer relationship. And I do think that queer relationships are different >> when they come together and they collide because you know love means something different to queer people sometimes because sometimes you didn't get it from certain
27:53
people you didn't you know >> and so you know it it it comes with baggage and um just to have him guiding me through it the whole time was so beautiful and David and Ruth as well who wrote the record with me are also in a long-term relationship so I was just surrounded by these beautiful grown-ups. >> Grown-ups. And and I think you can hear >> Grown-ups.
28:11
And and I think you can hear that in the record.
28:13
There's a maturity to the entire thing that is I think is divine. I love it. >> Finding grown-ups.
28:19
Eddie Vet said that right when he first met Neil Young.
28:22
He was like, "It was nice to actually find a a strong male older male role model in my life [laughter] that actually is going to help me and not just ask something of me." >> Yeah.
28:33
>> And uh I'd imagine it was a relief to find yourself in that space too because and again I'm not trying to paint the industry as a bad thing.
28:38
You entered into the trade with your eyes open whether you knew what you were going to see or not.
28:43
>> But it is a trade and there must have been a lot of years when you were looking for guidance and it probably felt more like >> with conditions.
28:49
I got beautiful guidance.
28:51
guidance. I feel I actually feel like I landed in such I I I still I'm still with so much of my team from the beginning and we've actually I mean that is a relationship like we have we have gone through things that you go through in a relationship and it's the only way
29:08
you could you make it work especially like >> dealing with you know my career isn't like everyone else's career like it's very very different um >> it's truly unique >> well the transitions I've gone through >> definitely you know, in my body and my myself, in my clothes and my weight, in my everything. It's it it it's come with a
29:28
It's it it it's come with a lot of backlash and a lot of kind of all of us needing to educate at the same time.
29:36
So, it's, you know, I'm very very proud of and and thankful that I landed in the hands that I did.
29:41
But I think that as every artist, you know, I gave my whole body to pop and to the the commercial world.
29:48
And um at some point I knew I wanted to to blaze my own path after I'd tic the things I wanted to tick.
30:00
And and so this album has been kind of that transition.
30:03
And I think now if and when I return to uh maybe a more pop commercial sound, I come at it with like different weapons now because of this music.
30:18
>> Well, I think I I tried to kind of connect these dots when we spoke on the phone a few weeks back.
30:21
I don't think I I I got it right, but having lived with the album now, I do feel to some degree like um this is all of you, all the use.
30:33
M >> I feel like this album you went back and picked up the 21-year-old you and were like, "Oh, you're really talented.
30:41
You should come and meet me over here and infuse a bit of you there and a bit of me there and a bit of me there and I'll meet and I'll pull you all together." >> Yeah.
30:48
That Well, that's makes me so happy that you feel that cuz that's how I feel.
30:52
>> A complete Sam right now. >> Yeah.
30:54
Well, a growing I I'm growing, you know. I I It's >> Yeah. Yeah.
30:59
It feels more complete than it ever has, which I feel every album should. >> Yeah.
31:03
you know, until until I I grow. I just I just Yeah.
31:05
I I hope people feel it and I hope I hope um I hope it finds people in the moments they they they need it. >> But it already is.
31:14
And this is the beautiful thing about reaching this point, isn't it?
31:17
And I've been observing this is you've been walking into rooms on multiple nights in the same place >> and and and bringing people into this beautiful intimate community experience of of performance.
31:28
>> Um introducing new songs, making them all make sense. Yeah.
31:31
>> Um, you realize now that that's there for you whenever you need it.
31:34
The pop thing, there's a there's a real time thing with pop.
31:39
It's like >> with certain pop, >> it's like, are you on time?
31:41
Cuz if not, you going backwards or are you are you too far forwards? It's all time time.
31:46
It's all like this feels timeless. >> Yes. Yeah. I I feel that.
31:49
I think with with certain pop there is, but I still feel like you can get timeless pop.
31:55
You just need to absolutely like grind for it, I think. >> Yeah.
32:01
But, you know, >> it doesn't come quick and easy. >> I agree.
32:03
It just I just feel like it doesn't feel to me like this album was made in that matrix or in that architecture anymore.
32:08
And and so I just think like my god onto the next one 5 10 20.
32:14
>> Well, I think I will all I look I don't know how I'll make records, but I I will always now exist in worlds.
32:19
I think for right now >> because working with a few people on a record was just >> gorgeous and just so fulfilling and I really got to like jump into the world and live in the world of that music and so I think I will will I I am doing that and will always do that now.
32:38
>> But you're reactionary and you've explain you you've explained that already in this conversation.
32:42
So what are you listening to now?
32:43
What's inspiring you now?
32:44
If not this, what where do you >> I mean, I'm in a whole different space now. >> Yeah.
32:52
>> You know, I'm listening to Kevin Jay-Z Prodigy raps and like I I actually just recently and I'm late, real late to the party, but it came to me at the right time. >> Yeah.
33:03
>> Just got like absolutely stabbed in the gut by an only hopelessness. >> Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah.
33:09
>> And like just >> I'm not even sure that's music in a conventional sense.
33:12
To me, it's portal to something else. >> Yeah. And for me it is.
33:15
And I'm just really I think my my kind of I'm listening to queer music in a different way than I ever have.
33:23
Um a lot of the music I listen to now is just like no lyrics, a lot of like orchestration and just to calm me the down in New York.
33:34
>> To me about 5 years ago in New York and I I stumbled across a winged victory for the Sullen and and I've been in a deep sort of like modern classical ambient space ever since. >> Yes. Yeah.
33:42
That's what that's what I do.
33:44
Do I listen to a lot of music that's just swells of of of emotion and feeling and quite classical?
33:51
>> For me, the artist that has just become the most important artist in my life and I got the I got the chance to get to know her and and and communicate with her and now someone that I'm returning to the whole catalog again and again and again and it's Madonna.
34:07
I just Madonna is my mother.
34:13
[laughter] She's just she's just unfucking real.
34:16
And she is so like she when I when I had the uh controversy happen around me with Unholy and the stuff in the press and and the heaviness that came with that for me.
34:28
I talk to to current artists now who right now if I meet them, they don't even know it happened.
34:35
She the minute it happened, she made sure she got through to me and that she she's so aware of queer news and what's happening in the community to the artists [snorts] within the community.
34:50
And I I just feel you feel that in her music.
34:53
M >> I feel like her music is is a lifeline to queer people and just all of the eras of her and her stamina and how she's um just always carried on and on and on it.
35:10
I just find it very inspiring and I think a lot of queer people find it inspiring.
35:13
>> When did the innocence die for you?
35:16
And and I don't mean that in a really dramat timelessly dramatic.
35:20
I don't think it has died cuz I I've I've protected it and I and I access it.
35:25
New York, love, >> music, time, >> and most importantly, education like really really there there are stories for queer people and anyone young non-binary listening to this.
35:38
>> You know, I have a foundation now called the Pink House, which is named after the house I was born in, was actually called the Pink House, if you can believe [laughter] it.
35:45
Um, [clears throat] >> and Christian didn't come knocking on your door when you live in a big pink house.
35:51
>> Big [laughter] pink beacon, but I um I set up a foundation that raises money for queer people and it's it's a young foundation that's just started. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you.
36:02
But I I have like an Instagram um which I'd love people to follow where I'm I'm actually like also I'm posting things about um amazing queer figures and artists that I love, but also through doing this I'm learning >> about more and more people and it's just like that's the most beautiful thing is that I I felt so alone for so long in the industry I'm in.
36:24
But there are just so many incredible queer people throughout history that have just that have just like they've defied all the odds and been so courageous, more courageous than I I'll ever have to be.
36:39
And um it's just that's becomes the greatest comfort for me.
36:43
And it's not just a comfort in my personal life, it's a comfort in my music because there's just such incredible queer artists out there as well and and amazing straight artists that that speak on the queer experience like our Madonna and you know all these amazing artist >> true allies. >> Yeah.
37:00
I just I just feel like I'm in this big beautiful bubble now of >> of freedom >> to be free. >> Yeah. To be free.
37:08
>> First song you did to be free. >> Yeah.
37:10
>> Last song on the album. >> Yes.
37:11
big powerful piece of music. >> Thank you.
37:16
>> I mean, I can hear it now.
37:16
Now I understand it was the first piece of music.
37:19
It makes total sense because what an eruption of emotion and feeling.
37:25
>> It's like, well, we're starting.
37:25
I'm not going to start light. We're going in. >> Yeah. Or just like that.
37:28
That's one vocal performance the whole way through from start to finish.
37:31
from start to finish. and just like I went into a little bit of a translike state with Simon and just I've just I I honored that feeling for the whole of the record and didn't realize I was going to surpass that feeling like singing my guy with you know feist for me has been such a huge inspiration in
37:48
my life >> you know getting to to perform that song and with her and her catch me in that moment was just amazing and moon dance was such an amazing freeing experience to make that record like yeah there's just so many beautiful piece of music it's not really easy listening record, but it's like it Do you think it's easy listening? >> No,
38:06
>> No, >> I don't think it's easy listening, but it it's weird.
38:08
It feels like a hug, >> but it's not easy listening. >> It's very nourishing.
38:13
>> So, it's like a potato in your face.
38:15
>> It's [laughter] depends how hot that potato is, mate.
38:18
>> But it's a it's a warm experience, but it's also it's not easy listening.
38:23
>> I find it a very emotional record, and I think I love hearing you perform at this point in your life the way you have on this record.
38:31
which is to your point in these one take moments in these rooms without the pressure of an audience but with the selfexpectation of capturing something really special >> and I can I can't imagine you I mean I know you'll make big pop records again but this is really where you're at at your best isn't it when when where the thing you would never have thought of doing is the reason that you did it like that. >> Yes.
38:56
And I'm just like the next thing will be something completely different. It just will.
39:02
And then I'll return, not return, but I I'll maybe access some of these things I've learned on another record, but in a different way.
39:08
I've learned so much from this record.
39:10
Like there's there's ways I might attack a record like this again differently. >> Yeah. Yeah.
39:16
I don't think I'll ever repeat this.
39:18
And I don't I think some people everyone has opinion about me as an artist.
39:22
Like everyone tells me all the time like this is where you're you're at your best.
39:26
This is where you sit perfectly.
39:28
>> Oh gosh, I hope I No, no, no, no.
39:28
It's all good because I've I've No, no, but I've got protection against me now because I was so influenced by anything any would say as a young cuz I was trying to find myself as a youngster.
39:38
I And this is what I would say to young artists like >> you have to you can't someone will say this is who you are >> and if you follow that too far >> Yeah.
39:50
you you will walk away from who you are.
39:52
You know, you've got to take things, let them digest and and you have to figure that out.
39:57
And I think that you're probably not that or that.
39:58
You're probably just over here a little bit there or there, you know, all your all of them together.
40:06
>> So, how does it make you feel about your debut album now?
40:07
We've gone kind of through each of them to some degree.
40:09
So, at a point now where you made this beautiful body of work which takes in a lot of all the life lessons thus far, >> you know, when you think back to the lonely hour now and that body of work you made as a kid, um I think it's stunning.
40:21
I I think it's a fabulous record.
40:24
I um I I think that um I'm so proud of that album because I I just remember in the moment like fighting for that title for one.
40:42
Actually, it was really important that that that album was called that for me because it was just that was my when it came to love and when it came to singing from my heart, I I felt I I was just I'd never been in love before and I was just singing from this solemn lonely place.
40:59
And so I I I'm so proud that I captured that in that music.
41:04
>> So much yearning on that album. >> Yeah. as an actual album.
41:05
I mean, there's some Rogue songs on there where I'm like, my gosh, like it's wild, you know, like um and and my voice sometimes I find it hard to hear my voice because like it's so my voice on those old like even Latch when I hear Latch, I'm like, my god, I I really sound like a musical theater kid that's just like in the pop world for the first time trying to like I don't know.
41:31
I was faking it a lot of the time.
41:33
like I was so out of my depth in some of the rooms I was in and and um and so I just yeah I hear the innocence in my voice, but I'm I've I've leared to love everything I've done if I'm honest.
41:46
I don't >> I I look back at things that I and I study them a little bit and I'm like I I would like I would have done that differently and that was not maybe good enough.
41:56
Um and but I don't I don't whip myself about it.
42:01
I don't like torture myself anymore about it.
42:03
I think at the beginning of this record, I started to do that.
42:07
And now at the end of this record, I've realized that it's it's all part of the color palette of me. >> Yeah.
42:14
And and you know, as an artist, I I am, you know, my mom always said to me when she I grew up, she was my mom said, "The women in our family are like Marmite."
42:23
She said, "People either love us or hate us."
42:26
And I have become a big tub of Marmite.
42:31
Like [laughter] that's No, but it's true. That's it.
42:35
It it just it's just in my DNA.
42:36
Like I'm I'm a polarizing person.
42:38
Some people hear me talk and sing and they're like, "How lovely."
42:42
And some people are like, "Get the out of here." You're Marmite, too. >> Uh-huh.
42:46
[laughter] The difference is I enjoy Marmite. I like it. I put it on toast. I'm good with it. >> Me, too. >> I'm good with it.
42:53
I'm right there with you.
42:54
I think that's maybe that's a part of the reason why we're so fond of each other is we realize that all we have is each other. >> Yes, exactly.
43:01
>> Other people who don't >> know but honestly we've like this is my fifth album so it's our fifth like conversation but we've spoken to each other so much over the years.
43:08
>> I'll always remember the first time I ever met you and you bound it up to me at Glastonbury. >> Yeah.
43:12
>> You were backstage behind a tent.
43:12
You just bound it up to me and you were just like you were there doing latch with the boys with Guy and Howard and that's all you had.
43:18
I think maybe the naughty boy song. I can't even remember.
43:20
And it was like >> you just bound it up to me.
43:22
And I mean honestly I can say this 100% cuz you know it's true.
43:26
I was just love at first sight for me.
43:30
>> I was just like oh my god I'm going to love this person for the rest of my life.
43:33
Like it was such an immediate thing for me.
43:35
I just didn't realize that everyone else was looking.
43:37
I was going I hate those two.
43:38
[laughter] Um, I can't wait to to to hear this come to life in in even more expansive environments than the ones you've been lovingly put together.
43:51
I know you have Mexico City shows to do, which is >> Yeah. Yeah.
43:54
It's not a big run of this album actually, which I I requested because I um I want to just I want to move forward and and be and spend more time in the studio.
44:05
>> You don't think these songs will will gently over time ask you to I suppose you would? Yeah. overtime. >> Yeah. Yeah.
44:12
And and I and I will will honor that for sure.
44:14
But it's it's also important.
44:16
Every album for me up to this point has come with a with two years of touring. >> Yeah.
44:22
>> And that's a hard commitment as an artist to >> to release an album for two years. I got a hindu to plan.
44:28
And I've [snorts] and also I just I just got more music to make and I I want to [clears throat] be a bit more prolific I think with music right now for me and not be too much of a goose um sitting on my music.
44:42
>> It feels to me like having a lot of fun. I mean what >> Yeah. Exactly.
44:44
And following that that's all I'm following at the moment is just how to have fun.
44:47
And you know through doing the residencies they've been beautiful but I've also learned things from them that maybe things to amend that I just that is my main north star right now is to enjoy my my my job and enjoy my life and um and and yeah and just get back to that fun >> that that I that I felt when I was younger.