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Optimal living.
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I have used 99designs for everything from banner ads to book covers, including sketches and mock-ups that led to the 4-Hour Body, which later became number one New York Times, number one Wall Street Journal.
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2:35
This is Tim Ferriss staring out through my window at the eucalyptus trees swaying in the breeze.
2:42
But that's enough poetry for this episode of the Tim Ferriss Show.
2:46
The Tim Ferriss Show, of course, like every other episode, is intended to help you deconstruct excellence, world-class performers, to pull out the tricks, routines, habits, books, etc.
2:56
that you can use, you can emulate to improve results in your own life.
3:02
And guests vary from hedge fund traders to That doesn't make any sense at all.
3:08
Hedge fund managers to top-performing angel investors to people like Arnold Schwarzenegger on the celebrity front, chess prodigies.
3:17
And in this case, we have not only a chef, but a a chef plus policy maker plus would-be professional athlete. His name is Sam Kass.
3:26
Sam is a fascinating guy.
3:29
He went from getting a history major at U Chicago.
3:33
Before that, he was on the professional baseball track, then became private chef for the Obamas, and then ended up the senior policy advisor for nutrition at the White House.
3:44
Uh he ran or helped to run as executive director the Let's Move campaign, which used private sector partnerships to pursue the goal of reducing childhood obesity to just 5% by 2030.
3:57
And for that, he was named number 11 on Fast Company magazine's 2011 list of the 100 most creative people.
4:03
And it's such a multifaceted story.
4:07
Sam is a a hilarious storyteller, and there are a lot of really concrete takeaways.
4:12
The book that he could not recall offhand in this episode is a history of world agriculture by Marcel Mazoyer and Laurence Roudaire or Roudart, r o u d a r t.
4:27
So, in addition to the Art of Fielding, Ottolenghi's books, and some of the others that he mentioned, there you have it.
4:32
A history of world agriculture.
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So, now without further ado, please enjoy my conversation and our conversation with Sam Kass.
4:45
Sam, welcome to the show. So good to be here, man. I'm I'm I'm excited.
4:48
Yeah, it's it's it's an interview that I've been really looking forward to, and I am very very hopped up on caffeine.
4:56
This is a this is a Amish morning for me.
4:58
I know this is I'm usually a 10:00 a. m. 11:00 a. m.
5:02
kind of guy cuz I'm a night owl.
5:04
And so, I'm going to jump into some morning questions in a second, but I wanted to first congratulate you on the James Beard Foundation, the Leadership Awards. Uh thank you.
5:15
That Yeah, that means a lot.
5:17
It's a James Beard has been an incredible organization.
5:18
I mean, they're like the the the they're like the you know, the Oscars for chefs.
5:23
And but they've taken up a lot of the important issues around food and nutrition and health and sustainability.
5:28
So, they have a an award for that.
5:30
And And yeah, it's a great honor. I'm excited.
5:34
Yeah, it So, for those who don't know, the Leadership Awards, and this is from their website, quote, "Recognize specific outstanding initiatives as well as bodies of work and lifetime achievement."
5:43
So, that's that's a hell of a tagline.
5:45
And um, we're going to get into all that, but first, a very important question. Uh, eggs.
5:51
How do you prefer to make eggs in the morning?
5:56
So, actually, I've been eating a lot of eggs uh, these days, and you know, the eggs are one of the hardest things to cook.
6:01
Some of the great chefs in the world, they're actually their test for a new cook would be how to make a an omelet would be like their one master test.
6:09
So, I actually like eggs all ways, almost always soft, though.
6:12
So, either a soft-boiled egg, I'll do eggs over easy, or really soft scrambled eggs.
6:16
Um, I guess that the the trick for soft scrambled eggs is I uh, you know, after you get your butter nice and hot, I crack the egg straight into the pan, let them cook for a second, and then mix them up, and then before you think they're done, take them out, cuz they'll harden a little bit as as they sit on the plate.
6:34
Um, but I I'll I'll I'll eat eggs pretty much any any way.
6:40
And do you Are you a tea guy, a coffee guy, none of the above? Uh, uh, both. All of the above.
6:45
I do uh, I'll do coffee in the morning, a little half and half, and then uh, either a little coffee in midday or tea, and then I'll I'll definitely have some tea at night.
6:55
Um, some chamomile tea or mint tea or some.
6:59
But I yeah, I I I drink them both.
6:59
How do you Do you have any particular like uh, do you have any particular type of coffee or way of of prepping, or is it just, you know what, just treat it as fuel, whatever will get me through the day?
7:11
Um, you know, I I wouldn't say that I'm like one of those coffee like lunatics who like, you know, is wild you know, about every specific thing and talks about it like wine, but I appreciate a good cup of coffee, and I really One of my least favorite things is a terrible cup of coffee.
7:27
Uh, yeah, I just I I can't I can't drink it.
7:30
So, I'm a big Stumptown guy, you know, Blue Bottle does a great cup of coffee.
7:34
Um, there's there's some really good coffee out there.
7:36
So, I do French press in the morning, real simple, some half and half.
7:40
Um, nothing's nothing crazy.
7:40
What does the Well, actually, I'm going to ask the the morning routine question a little bit later on, but you mentioned uh, coffee snobs, and this is kind of a good segue because you live in Brooklyn, but you came from a town that is actually really well known for coffee these days, which is Chicago. Yeah.
7:57
And, um, correct me if I'm wrong, I could, uh, get some of my bio incorrect, but you grew up with parents who were both teachers, is that correct?
8:09
Uh, my dad's a teacher, um, was growing up.
8:13
Well, he was actually, uh, he worked in the Ford factory when I was very young, and then he then he changed jobs to become a a teacher.
8:18
And my mom has been in education, like science education stuff, but more from like museums, and now she's at the National Science Foundation.
8:25
So, um, but lots of teachers.
8:27
My aunt and uncle are teachers, my cousins are teachers, and my sister's a teacher.
8:30
So, I have I am we come from I come from an educational family.
8:35
What was, uh, what was that like growing up?
8:37
I mean, how did that impact you? Or affect you?
8:41
Um, I I It probably was more of how I pushed back against it than how it That was probably the the strongest influence.
8:47
I wanted to be a professional baseball player from the time I was like three all the way through college, to be honest.
8:54
And, uh, I went to junior college trying to make it to the major league.
8:57
So, I I, you know, as my parents pleaded with me to to dig into the books and hit them harder, all I wanted to do was take batting practice and and and, you know, go after some fly balls.
9:09
So, it came back to me, uh, when I when I transferred in college and and then beyond.
9:16
Did the, uh, do you have brothers and sisters?
9:18
I have a younger sister who's still in Chicago. Got it.
9:20
And you ultimately in college ended up at UChicago. Mhm.
9:25
Uh, and what what drew you to baseball?
9:28
Why did you Why did you play baseball?
9:30
Um, so, I love I love baseball for a number of reasons. One, it is so hard.
9:36
I mean, if you if you are successful 30% of the time for your whole career, you'll be a Hall of Famer.
9:43
That means if you fail seven out of 10 times, you're one of the greatest players in the history of the game.
9:48
And so, that constant challenge and constant challenge to get better something that, you know, always really drew me.
9:55
It's also, you know, it's a team sport, so you have the camaraderie that is, you know, really powerful and those bonds with with with your teammates, but it's it's also an an utterly individual sport.
10:05
So, unlike, you know, soccer, basketball, where if you're having a bad game, you kind of blend in, if you make an error in baseball or you strike out with the bases loaded, everybody knows like you messed up.
10:15
And so, you really have to take account, you know, responsibility and you're held accountable for your actions.
10:19
And I think that those kind of lessons of of discipline, hard work, but also accountability and learning how to fail and even if you failed five times in a row, that sixth time you get a shot at it maybe the most important time can win the game.
10:32
And how do you mentally prepare yourself to walk into that moment clear-headed and and not carrying the baggage from those previous failures, which could, you know, impede your ability to be successful when it mattered.
10:44
Like those are the kind of things that I just loved about baseball and and it really served me well in in all other aspects of life.
10:52
And you had a you had a very good batting average.
10:54
I I believe it's uh it I have read that it was ranked among the best in program history at uh University of Chicago. Is that accurate?
11:02
Um yeah, I haven't checked recently.
11:05
I'm sure some of the younger guys have have have taken over.
11:08
When I left, I think I was number three, but, you know, it was wasn't the you know, we were at UFC for the education, not not not uh the baseball, but we had a very good team.
11:15
Um you know, I played two years of junior college baseball just trying to get drafted, where basically all I did was play ball uh six six hours a day, seven days a week, literally.
11:25
And uh sprint training in the morning, like, you know, it was that's all we did.
11:31
So, UFC was a little different.
11:31
It was uh 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, and I'll never forget the first practice when coach outlined our schedule and said that on Thursdays we didn't practice cuz we had science labs.
11:42
I just almost like passed out.
11:45
I didn't even know what what he was talking talking about.
11:46
Science labs, not baseball?
11:49
So, it was a it was an adjustment for me.
11:51
Um but uh but it was one of the greatest things probably best decision I've ever made was to go there.
11:57
And well, like you said, I mean, if you go to say Iowa for wrestling, I mean, wrestling is your career in college.
12:01
Uh academics are secondary.
12:03
But at UChicago, you have obviously a very strenuous academic program.
12:07
What did you do that other players didn't do that allowed you to not only make it through UChicago and the academics, but to have that high a batting average or that good a batting average?
12:22
Um that's a good question.
12:22
I'm not exactly sure I know a definitive answer to that.
12:26
I mean, I had come from such a rigorous baseball background um where a lot of the other guys were, you know, came from you know, were sort of playing baseball secondarily, that um you know, that part came really easy to me.
12:39
Uh and um you know, I think the part that was a real adjustment that I could learn from them was like how to really hit the books in a way that I had never had to hit the books before.
12:48
And how do you organize all that classwork and, you know, the expectation is you're supposed to read like five books a week.
12:54
I mean, I mean, that was like absurd to me uh going in.
12:59
So, you know, I learned from them about how to balance that side of it.
13:02
And from my side, um you know, I think the discipline and how do you efficiently use your time both in the, you know, in the gym, in batting practice, like how do you make the most of what you're, you know, what you're trying to get out of it.
13:17
Um I think was something that I could bring and you know, to the guys and and was able to be successful on both sides.
13:24
And and the the the the major you ended up choosing was history.
13:29
Did Was that a Was that an immediate choice?
13:30
Did you know you wanted to do history?
13:32
How did you arrive at that?
13:33
Um you know, I looked I looked at a couple other majors.
13:36
Um uh but I arrived at history because, you know, at the time there's a lot of things swirling in politics.
13:41
There's a lot of you know, there's a lot of work.
13:44
There was like, you know, the the first Gulf War and there's a lot of things going on that that I was paying attention to that I didn't really understand what was happening.
13:52
Uh and um then I and I realized that if I wanted to understand the world around me and politics and and everything that was happening, having a a a a much better grasp on on on history and where these things have come from was going to help me.
14:07
And I think that that really propelled me to to focus in on history, which which I love.
14:10
I'm a I'm a history geek.
14:12
Do you have any favorite history books or biographies? Oh man, that's so tough. That's so tough.
14:21
I don't know if I have one.
14:23
I'll tell you like I I I I like some of the obscure ones and I got to get you the author, but there's like there's a history of agriculture book that completely changed my perspective and it's kind of boring, but when you look at, you know, if you're geeky and you look at like the impact of simple tools have had on our society, the transformational shifts, like we forget how fundamental that stuff is.
14:40
So, I'll get back to you on that.
14:42
There's so many great biographies and great history books. Cool.
14:45
Yeah, the the uh I'll put the the title of the book and so on in the show notes.
14:51
So, we'll we'll come back to that. All right.
14:54
How did you then This is kind of the missing piece in that the Sam Cass puzzle that I haven't uh immediately been able to figure out.
15:04
How did you go then from majoring in history at U Chicago to food?
15:09
How did you become interested in food?
15:12
So, I had always um sort of loved food, you know, as a kid I kind of like to cook.
15:17
Um but I had no notion of ever, you you pursuing it professionally in any way.
15:23
Um and when I was at UFC, my friend uh was the sous chef at this restaurant in in uh in Chicago and I I didn't know him super well, but I said, "Oh, you know, one day, you know, I think I'll go to culinary school when I'm old and just so I can learn how to cook for like my kids and wife whenever they decide to show up."
15:38
And he was like, you know, "Well, don't do that.
15:41
Just come in and hang out at the restaurant. See what you think."
15:44
So, I went in and it was like an Italian-American uh spot in Chicago.
15:48
Nothing, you know, nice place, nothing too fancy. And um and I loved it.
15:52
And so, I ended up just showing up and like, you know, scrubbing potatoes and hanging out and trying to learn some things.
15:58
And the chef uh said, "Well, if you're going to keep showing up, I guess I got to pay you."
16:05
Uh so, I so he did, but I mean, it was pretty much an unmitigated disaster.
16:09
Like, I knew nothing and they you know, I but I always work hard, so they they threw me on the line to work the pasta station.
16:15
And oh my god, uh it was it you know, the dishes that the chef let me send to the table most often came back cuz they were just inedible.
16:22
Uh so, it you know, so it I got it was a rough start.
16:27
Um but so, I had that one summer and then I finished UFC and I had a one um one semester left and I kind of kicked my way into an abroad program.
16:34
I got I got wait-listed and I sort of um plead and made a a strong plea with the dean to let me uh let me into one of the programs.
16:43
I didn't care where where we went where I went and went to ended up going to Vienna.
16:49
And I I said to the head of the program, uh you know, I'm I worked a little I worked this one summer in a restaurant. I'm interested in food.
16:55
Like, maybe there's a pastry shop or something I can go hang in hang out at once a once a week or something. Totally casual.
17:02
So, I landed in Vienna and she said, "So, my husband's uncle's friend from college's son rides bicycles with the sous chef of the best restaurant in Vienna."
17:14
That's literally what it was.
17:16
And uh and she was like, you know, he can meet you tomorrow if you're interested. So like, all right.
17:23
So I meet this dude, crazy guy.
17:27
Uh and he comes up to me and says, are you the Yankee who wants to cook?
17:32
And on the street and I said, I I am.
17:35
And he said, all right, well, come come to the restaurant tomorrow.
17:37
And so I did and it was a Michelin star like best restaurant in Vienna. It was incredible.
17:44
I knew nothing about food and they ended up taking me in and training me sort of old school European style like kick your butt you know, till you you know, can't take any more and you figure it out.
17:57
And uh lots of stories from that from that from that place.
18:01
But that's sort of how I really was propelled into it. So a few things.
18:06
I just want to explain to people maybe not in the industry.
18:10
So sous a sous chef is I guess that means under chef, right?
18:13
That's kind of the second in command in the kitchen.
18:15
Is that a fair way of putting it?
18:17
Just like sous vide is under under pressure, I guess.
18:21
And the So there are a lot of stories.
18:21
I know we we talked about one over dinner the other night and I I can't skip it.
18:28
So could you tell people about your sort of baptism by fire in that kitchen? Um so many stories.
18:38
I think the one Yeah, the The the the the fever dream. The fever dream, yeah.
18:42
So So it was December and and that's the busiest time of the year by far for this restaurant.
18:50
And the the guy who did all the fish, meats, and sauces what had to have surgery.
18:57
And so the executive chef had to take over for him.
19:00
And now he was like 40 and was a super talented guy but was like not cooking anymore.
19:04
Like he was running things and being out with the guests and you know, doing his thing.
19:08
So he was really unhappy about having to cook the line during the most busy time of the year.
19:14
So, he he like he walked in when the when we got news and was like, "All right, Yankee, you're with me."
19:18
And so, he had this huge incentive to teach me how to prep everything as fast as possible because he didn't want to have to do it.
19:25
So, he taught me how to make all the sauces, prep all the meats, cook everything.
19:30
And so, then we would work the service together.
19:31
Um but in the middle of the month on a Friday, the chef came down with like 104° fever and was completely laid out.
19:40
And it just so happened that my best friend, who was a Rhodes Scholar uh at the time, was coming to visit me uh from England.
19:48
And um so, you know, we're supposed to go hang out.
19:51
I was supposed to have the weekend off and we were just going to hang.
19:54
And so, he shows up and I'm like, "Hey, man, you're coming with me.
19:58
I'm putting you in a chef coat. Like, we can't leave."
20:01
And uh they had the breakfast cook, this guy Wolfgang, who was an awesome dude, but you know, he was like he was like doing platters of fruit and he was a good cook, but he didn't like cook dinner service. He never had.
20:11
So, it was the three of us trying to figure out this dinner service. And it was pretty funny.
20:17
Uh but the at the end of the night, the sous chef said, "All right, Wolfgang, you got to take the day off.
20:22
Um it's the two Yankees on the stove tomorrow night."
20:25
And like the kitchen went silent.
20:26
Like, all the cooks were like like they couldn't believe it.
20:28
And so, we figured out this system.
20:32
My friend was a smart guy, so he we studied the the words in German of the different like fish and meats and whatever we needed.
20:40
So, the next night we had like a cra- we were packed.
20:43
And so, the the sous chef would call out the order.
20:46
My friend would take out the fish or the meat.
20:49
And then I would cook it.
20:52
And you'd I And you know, as I'm cooking on the other side of me, also cooking and facing me was the guy who did all the vegetables and side dishes that would go with my meat or fish.
20:59
And I'd look up and he would just be standing there kind of with with mouth open, completely in awe of what was going on because, you know, that station that we were working was like what people would work their whole careers for.
21:11
It's an incredibly prestigious, well-paid position.
21:15
And here were these two Americans who knew nothing about cooking working in the Michelin-star restaurant on the hardest station in the kitchen. It was hysterical. And we made it.
21:26
Like we we basically got through without any catastrophe and I'll never forget when the last ticket went out, the sous chef, his name was Alois, he turns around and he said, "Yankees, we won."
21:36
And then like just in German shouted for bottles of champagne and bottles of beer and and we had a good old party that night.
21:44
It was it was a it was a ton of fun.
21:44
And I remember hearing this story and just having my jaw drop open because I've had, of course, very limited exposure to food and restaurants, but during the writing of The 4-Hour Chef, when we first met met up in in DC, Yeah.
22:03
I remember going into a handful restaurants.
22:05
Obviously different restaurants at very different environments, but when you're when you look at a line not at a Michelin-star restaurant, but just at any restaurant during a busy period and like 40 menus open at the same time, it is complete chaos.
22:20
I mean, you have to be Doctor Octopus to work one of the hot lines.
22:23
So, it's like you guys were kind of yanked out of the audience by the conductor of the orchestra and asked to do violin solos.
22:31
Uh, it's it's a I can't believe you guys made it through that.
22:34
What What was your internal self-talk like when you got when you got the news and like when you got the news or when you walked in for that that evening?
22:44
I mean, how did you prep yourself for that?
22:47
Because unlike baseball, right?
22:49
Like if if you're putting out every three out of 10 dishes is working in the restaurant, like you you get punched in the face.
22:56
So, what was your self-talk to to get through that?
23:02
It's a great It's a great I mean, I think the the key in a restaurant and the key in any kind of high-pressure situation, like I think 75% of success is is staying calm and not losing your nerve.
23:13
And you know, the rest you figure out.
23:15
But once you lose your Once you lose your your your calm, everything else starts falling apart fast.
23:21
And in a restaurant situation, as the tick tickets start piling up and like everybody else's is waiting on you.
23:26
So, and particularly in this, like the timing would have to be perfect cuz you go up on six dishes and the the the guy who's doing all the side stuff has like cooked all this and he's got to get to the next round.
23:35
So, your timing has to be right on.
23:37
And if you're too slow, all of his stuff gets He has, you know, it gets overcooked and he's got to cook it again, right?
23:42
So, you can really throw things off.
23:46
Um so, I think the key thing was like mentally preparing myself.
23:48
Like when something goes wrong, you just stay calm and stay the course.
23:52
And I think the other thing One of the first thing the sushi chefs taught me, like he gave me some really fundamental rules, which have lasted me kind of throughout everything I do.
24:00
One is The first is never serve anything you wouldn't want to eat. Like never serve crap.
24:04
It's like rule number one.
24:07
Rule number two, which is just true.
24:09
Just You know, you can have a high standard on everything you do.
24:10
Rule number two was when things get really busy, instead of just like like plowing ahead and just trying to work as fast as you can and just go through all the tickets, he always would tell me step back and come up with a plan.
24:22
So, look at which dishes you have and figure out what's the most efficient way to cook them.
24:28
So, if you have five of one thing, don't just cook them one at a time.
24:30
Like get them out, prep them together and and do them together.
24:35
So, that those kind of like fundamental rules are I tried to hold really close and you just come up with a good system.
24:42
I think every great restaurant has an incredibly strong system that when the the the pressure gets heated, you know, heated up and the everything's moving super fast, you rely on that system to move you through.
24:52
And I think that was key.
24:54
We came up with a good system and and out it went.
24:56
So, I know you're not focusing on too many things at any one time.
25:01
Focus on cooking the things that my friend was giving me and and it worked really well.
25:06
It was It was so fascinating for me to visit different kitchens and look at the layouts and and the the methods because they're really sort of the the internal workings of the executive chef thrown out into this the architecture of the room and the process and all that and just being so surprised at for instance uh Alinea in Chicago and how quiet it is.
25:27
There's no yelling, there's no screaming.
25:30
It's more like a operating table. Yeah.
25:32
Uh what is the most uh unusual restaurant that's a that puts out very good food that that you've come across in terms of just how it works? Mhm.
25:49
Well, the craziest kitchen I've ever seen like So, I worked at Avec, which is one of Chicago one of America's great restaurants.
25:55
And you know, it was really a wine bar that ended up putting out such good food that it's won James Beard awards and all kinds of other accolades just because the food ended up just kicking butt.
26:05
But it was not set up for that at all.
26:06
So, it's a teeny line of three people, one big wood burning and gas burning like kind of oven and a little stove and what people do out of that is just what we were doing out of that was was incredible.
26:17
The but the kitchen that's like blows me away the most is the kitchen here in Brooklyn actually at Frankie's 457. It's so tiny.
26:27
It's literally like two guys on two induction burners in a space that's like I don't know, like 5 ft by 10 ft and they cook for this huge restaurant at quality.
26:41
It's like one of my favorite restaurants in in in in America. What was the name again? Frankie's 457.
26:45
It's unbelievably good and it's like you look at these two guys back there with an two induction burners and I just don't know.
26:55
I just don't know how they do it. And if the menu's huge.
26:58
I mean, it's it's and it's delicious.
26:59
So, what people can do out of very small spaces is um is pretty incredible.
27:05
So, the for for people who who don't know what an induction burner is and then then correct me if I'm wrong, an induction burner is basically a stove top that you plug in and you can put on a counter top.
27:20
Maybe it's the size of like a large dinner plate.
27:21
I mean, it depends on what kind you get, but it uses as I understand it magnets to heat metal.
27:25
So, you could actually take the pot off, put your hand right on the burner and not burn your hand.
27:30
You got to make sure you don't have rings on, but um that actually uh raises so, this this question of kind of elegance, right?
27:40
Because uh one of the questions I was going to ask you later is what you know, what's the most interesting meal you could make in a dorm room, right?
27:47
And you could you could I mean, induction burners in a 5 by 10-ft space.
27:50
I mean, that's basically a dorm room that these guys are cooking in, it sounds like.
27:53
If if you had to limit your uh herbs or spices to three choices for the rest of your life, what would your three what would your three choices be? Herbs or spices?
28:06
Oh my god, what a horrible horrible question. Only Only only three?
28:10
Yeah, or or I you know what?
28:13
I'll give you a little bit of wiggle room. A handful a handful.
28:18
I mean, I'd have to have chilies of some kinds, any kinds.
28:22
Uh there's lots of kinds, but I you know, some some chilies I would have to have.
28:27
Um any herbs or spices Uh I'm a I'd probably have to take basil and tarragon. I'm a huge tarragon guy. Um spices.
28:42
I mean, oh my god, how do I pick just one? Oh god, I don't know.
28:47
Like cumin is a big is a is a really versatile big spice.
28:53
Um, I love pink peppercorns although I don't know if that make the cut.
28:59
Um, yeah, that's a really hard question. Oh, I know.
29:02
That's why that's why this is this is to get the to make the shopping list for myself.
29:06
Now tarragon tarragon kind of revolutionized eggs for me.
29:11
Tarragon and and white truffle sea salt and all things which was recommended by a friend of mine. How do you use tarragon?
29:19
Oh man, you can use tarragon on anything.
29:20
I love it in straight in salads.
29:23
Um, you could chop it up with like some parsley as and some basil.
29:24
You can put that on fish, on I use tarragon on steak.
29:31
Tarragon like little tarragon and maybe a little butter on a steak is delicious.
29:35
Um, uh, anything seafood I find tarragon goes also really well with.
29:40
So you could do if you're doing a pasta like lemon, you know, a lemon tarragon something seafood pasta.
29:46
Fill in the blank on the seafood, you pretty much can't go wrong.
29:50
Um, so I it's it's it's one of those interest you know, you got to be careful cuz you can use it's strong.
29:53
So um, you can overuse it pretty quickly.
29:57
But if you use it gently, it um, it's a beautiful flavor. You mentioned steak.
30:03
What is your favorite cut of steak and why?
30:04
Ooh, I I guess favorite I guess I'd have to be a ribeye guy.
30:10
But I eat a lot of skirt steak, a lot of hanger steak. Um, I love braising.
30:14
So you know, lots of different you know, the braising cuts ribs and that and such.
30:18
But if I'm going to have like if I'm going to have my last steak, it would be a ribeye.
30:22
When you're cooking ribeye for yourself, just just for Sam, nobody else.
30:27
How do you how do you cook it? Uh, grill.
30:33
I I you know, if I'm doing for myself but really if I'm doing for anybody I just throw it on the grill really simple.
30:39
Um, and like medium rare to rare.
30:44
And pretty olive oil, salt, and just a Sometimes pepper, sometimes not.
30:47
I'm not a big pepper guy, so I don't put pep- black pepper on much on pretty much anything, really.
30:53
Um but a steak is the kind of the one thing that I'd be open to that.
30:56
And yeah, and away you go. Nothing nothing fancy.
31:01
And you put the olive oil and salt on beforehand or afterwards? Yes, beforehand, yeah. Got it.
31:05
Yes, beforehand, yeah. Got it. And if I And if I'm going to do an herb, like sometimes I'll put tarragon or some rosemary, uh I always do that afterwards cuz I find that when you put it on before it just burns and you lose the flavor, but if you you hit it afterwards, particularly
31:20
if you're going to sear it on the grill and then finish in the oven for a few minutes, which is often the way to do it if you have a a thick cut, um you put that on so it gets a you know, it it cooks a little bit to round out the flavor, but it doesn't uh doesn't kill the flavor. Yeah, I always um finish sort of sear
31:33
Yeah, I always um finish sort of sear and then finish at the oven at a low temperature and just let the butter and whatever herbs I'm going to use kind of soak in from the top down. Yeah.
31:41
Uh the So, the pep- the pepper point, you mentioned not much of a black pepper guy, but you also mentioned the pink peppercorn.
31:50
So, what What would you use pink peppercorns for, which I've never used or I don't think I've ever used.
31:56
Yeah, you can I mean, so you could use them on any meat.
31:57
They like go great on like pork or if you grind them up as a rub on pork or um you can do on steak as well.
32:07
Um you can you can do a fun dressing, a salad dressing with them as part of it.
32:12
But it becomes part of a a flavor, whereas like for me black pepper, it's used like salt, right?
32:17
We use it on everything, but salt doesn't salt becomes part of the flavor.
32:23
It it it elevates the flavor, whereas pepper like layers on top of the flavor.
32:27
And it's it it always just kind of blankets things for me.
32:32
And I don't know, I just I don't I'm just not a fan Of of that sort of ubiquitous pepper flavor on everything.
32:40
Um So, on the flip side, if aside from tarragon, if someone if one of your very close friends were to say, "You know, I love Sam, but he really overuses this ingredient."
32:52
What would that ingredient or condiment or herb or spice be? Mhm.
33:00
I I don't know, probably garlic, but we all are guilty of using garlic too much cuz it's just so damn good.
33:07
It just makes everything better.
33:07
I I literally have minced garlic in my tea right now. I'm not kidding.
33:11
So, yeah, I'm guilty of the same sin. Oh, god.
33:17
Uh how did you first meet the Obamas?
33:24
Um so, you So, we're both from Hyde Park, and Hyde Park is on South Side Chicago, like where the University of Chicago is.
33:30
And and you know, when he was a professor, actually, I'd known him just from the neighborhood and the first now first lady when I was in high school.
33:41
And then but then lost touch with them for many years and got reconnected with them when I came back from my uh my time in Vienna and then subsequent travels around the world.
33:53
Sort of traveled for about 4 or 5 years, you know, through Vienna and then past it.
33:58
Um so, I got reconnected with them right as the campaign was was uh was getting going.
34:03
And was that through Avec or how did you guys end up reconnecting?
34:07
Um so, we reconnected cuz I after I When I was in Vienna, I was actually there illegally.
34:13
I had no workers permit or anything and ended up sort of getting run out of town. Yeah.
34:20
Uh yeah, that's a that's a story.
34:21
That's a story for another day. Right.
34:22
Uh and so, then I spent about um four four four more years past that cooking and traveling, and I ended up getting connected to a family that had a place in New Zealand.
34:35
And so, I cooked a couple seasons down in New Zealand.
34:36
And they were from Chicago.
34:39
So, I after the second season, I came back with them to um to Chicago to work part-time.
34:44
And the the father of that family knew the first lady and happened to run into her um on on a plane.
34:55
And they got to talking and you know, and he was telling them telling the the first lady about uh you know, me cooking for them.
35:03
And And And she's like, "Oh, Sam, I haven't seen him in years."
35:06
And so, we got reconnected and uh you know, back then there was no staff.
35:12
It was basically just them, grandma.
35:14
Well, they had a little bit of help, but but not much.
35:16
So, I started helping out the first lady as she had to get on the the campaign trail more and more.
35:22
And the kids were still very young.
35:23
And so, I started helping around with uh with cooking some better food for them. What's meals?
35:30
What were some favorite meals during that that uh intense campaigning period?
35:35
Oh, you know, that's all top secret in my Just can't disclose. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
35:40
Uh you know, look the And during that time and and all the way through, I mean, they there's there's never been uh any interest in fancy food at all.
35:49
Really simple uh food that everybody's going to like, you know, lots of chicken or lean proteins, lots of fish.
35:56
We always do whole grain.
35:59
So, if we're doing rice, there's always brown rice.
36:01
And always, you know, that you know, good good serving of vegetables.
36:04
Um and just, you know, um n- nothing It's always I think the thing that people um you know, think about when they think of a private chef, you think, "Oh, fancy food."
36:16
But really, you're in your home, right?
36:17
So, people don't want to feel like they're in a restaurant.
36:19
And that's same is true in the White House.
36:20
And I think um so, we always kept it really really simple.
36:27
Um and never never did anything.
36:28
I mean, we ate like everybody else eats. Nothing, nothing crazy.
36:31
We love a good burger, you know, um, so, things like that.
36:36
What if if hypothetically, uh, you had, let's say, you know, 5 years from now you decide, you know what?
36:42
Just for the hell of it, I'm going to have a couple of restaurants in Chicago.
36:46
And, uh, you go back at some point, you're the owner, and you you decide to kind of hang out at one of the restaurants.
36:54
And lo and lo and behold, the Obamas come in for dinner. Mhm.
36:58
And they say, "Sam, make us whatever you think will bring back the memories."
37:02
What would you make them?
37:04
What would I bring back the memories? What would I make them?
37:06
Uh, that's a great question.
37:09
I guess it depen- First thing I'd say is depends on what the season is, because I think one of the keys to great food is cooking with the season. Um, Summertime. Summertime.
37:16
So, summertime I'd probably start with like a really nice tomato salad, because um, one of the best things about cooking in the White House was the First Lady's garden, and we got to pick, you know, awesome produce right out of the garden right before dinner.
37:32
So, I'd probably start with an awesome tomato salad.
37:33
Um, maybe do some barbecued chicken, um, uh, with with some good spice. I don't know.
37:43
Uh, maybe some potatoes, and uh, just a bunch of vegetables.
37:46
So, we would pick like zucchini and I'd do zucchini and basil, maybe a little eggplant or some peppers.
37:54
I don't know, just depends what's going on.
37:56
We've grown some great corn.
37:59
So, maybe do some some really good corn with that. Um, something like that.
38:03
What's, um, what would the tomato salad look like?
38:09
Uh, I love tomato If you've got great tomatoes, you don't want to do much to them.
38:12
I mean, I think um, if you don't have great tomatoes, then you got to work with them some.
38:15
But, you probably should just do a different salad then.
38:19
Um, I I like it with a little onion.
38:20
And on this one like typically I'm a red onion really thinly sliced one of my big things.
38:26
I hate thickly sliced red onion.
38:29
It's like as thin as you can slice it thinner the better.
38:31
Uh but I actually in the tomato salad a white onion finely cut too is is good.
38:35
Um with some nice uh olive oil and you know like a white balsamic is really nice on tomato salad.
38:44
It's got a touch of sweetness.
38:46
Um and any any number of herbs like you know you could do parsley and some basil.
38:51
Maybe throw in some like green beans or wax beans in there that are blanched.
38:55
Something like that you know sounds pretty good to me. That sounds great.
39:00
What other pet peeves do you have aside from overuse of pepper thickly sliced onions. I love pet peeves.
39:06
I've got a million of them myself.
39:08
So what what other things make you crazy when it comes to food?
39:12
Um I think the thing that makes me the most crazy in food is just when people try too hard and they try to be something that they're not.
39:21
Like there's nothing more than I love than like a perfect fried wing or like a an awesome burger.
39:29
But I hate when there's like food that's looks all fancy but tastes like crap.
39:33
Like it's like just just you know if you can do food that's beautiful and super well composed and and like I I appreciate that too.
39:41
It's not that I don't like that but if you're just throwing foam everywhere and doing all some weird concoctions because that's sort of trendy.
39:48
Like I hate the trends in food.
39:51
I like real just well executed food that you can tell is has a lot of love in it and a lot of authenticity in it.
39:56
And I think that that for me is is most important.
40:01
Um So I I I think generally that's the thing that like determines my experience in eating and eating somebody's food.
40:08
That was that was something that really surprised me when I got to know quite a few chefs in writing the Four Hour Chef was that uh when they came to visit say my house for dinner or someone else's house, the last thing they wanted to have was a five-course meal. Yeah. Yeah.
40:23
Like the last thing they wanted to have was some type of foam sprayed onto their plate with like tweezer cuisine on top of it. They're just like, "No.
40:31
Just give me like a a really fatty burger or Yeah.
40:36
something really simple that I can enjoy consuming."
40:39
Uh the uh what what made uh the White House garden unique?
40:44
Cuz I I know that that a lot of thought went into that, and I've become I've never gardened, uh but I've become very fascinated by it because I when I went to uh this this village called Ogimi in Okinawa at one point.
40:57
It has the the longest median lifespan in the world, and I just noticed that nearly everyone gardened in some capacity. Interesting.
41:08
So what made the White House garden unique?
41:11
Uh well, there's a lot unique about that garden.
41:13
Um you know, one is the first garden since Eleanor Roosevelt's Victory Garden uh during World War II, which was a really powerful symbolic garden, but it was actually quite small and really didn't produce food to eat.
41:23
Um So it's the White House garden, the First Lady's Garden is really the first garden since the late 1890s um and that that actually produced food.
41:33
Um And you know, it was designed its whole purpose was to really shine a light on on food, where it comes from, how it's grown, how hard it is to grow good and really uh lift up farmers all over uh America that are, you know, producing the the nourishment that we need to survive, and um and and make it educational.
41:56
And I and I think that's really it, you know, so it was a working life garden that we ate from every day.
42:04
Um but also we had kids come down for tours on a weekly basis.
42:08
The kids would come and plant with the First Lady and then harvest and cook with her a couple of times a year.
42:13
We had a compost so we could talk about the importance of giving back to the soil, building soil for fertility, which is a huge issue across the country.
42:22
And we also had the first ever beehive on the White House grounds, which which is which is just awesome.
42:30
And we got tons of honey, but also could talk to the kids about pollinators and why they're so important.
42:34
And we have a huge huge problem with colony colony collapse disorder.
42:38
We're losing bees and other pollinators at, you know, really alarming rates, which have massive implications for our economy and and our ability to to produce food.
42:46
So, you know, I think when you look at the whole picture and what it's accomplished since that garden was planted gardening across the country has skyrocketed. It's up over 30%.
42:59
And so it's been really exciting and and it was just it was a ton of fun.
43:05
And you know, you mentioned you mentioned a couple of things that I think are really important.
43:10
The magnitude of the impact of bees is something I I never really understood and I still need to understand more, but people talk about the butterfly effect and I I feel like, you know, the bee effect, sort of the the ripple, the cascade of different sort of ecosystem changes that bees are involved with is really astonishing.
43:28
The second thing I would encourage people to look into is what you mentioned, which is the sort of soil depletion.
43:35
And I remember at one point maybe one of the listeners can can find this, but seeing data that I believe it was from China that looked at the incidence and frequency of uh cancer diagnosis in different regions in China and you could pretty much predict how much cancer there would be based on topsoil depletion in different regions because they would end up with trace mineral deficiencies like selenium and so on.
44:06
And I I reading about this at one point.
44:09
It's something like in certain areas because of monocrops, you know, like the wheat and soy and so on in the US, the topsoil is gone from whatever 10 ft to like 10 in, and um what do you think needs to be done or what can be done to help reverse that trend?
44:26
So, there's there's a lot that needs to be done, and I'd say it it's it's a it's a topic that doesn't get anywhere near the attention that it deserves, but everything comes everything is based on the health of our soil.
44:36
It is the reason why we have such a prosperous nation was that we had the best soil in the world, and it helped us produce a surplus of crops, which allowed, um, you know, big parts of our population to go on and build and create and do other things.
44:53
Um, and the the the dramatic loss across the nation on on our on our topsoil is something that is it couldn't be a a more important issue, and it couldn't be a harder one to make get people excited about cuz it's like, "Ah, dirt.
45:07
Like, what are you talking about?" You know?
45:10
Uh, so there's lots of things that need to be done.
45:12
Um, and I think they're starting to see some change.
45:14
I think people are starting to to wake up to this.
45:17
We need to do a much better job at at rotating our crops to rebuild fertility.
45:22
Right now, we're we're basically growing just a couple crops and using, um, synthetic fertilizers to sort of make up for the lack of fertility in the soil. That's a problem.
45:33
We're having all kinds of of problems from stemming from that.
45:36
Runoff in our water, you know, massive algae blooms in the Gulf killing sea life.
45:41
There's lots of lots of challenges going on there.
45:45
So, I think we need to rotate crops.
45:45
I think we need to change our practices to really focus on rebuilding that fertility, um, using different, uh, sources of, uh, fertilizer, natural fertilizers.
45:53
And you're starting to see people taking back some of that land and rebuilding, and hopefully that will continue to grow.
46:00
And people, I mean, I think are going to continually have to um ask, you know, work on, you know, sourcing food that's coming from farmers that are, you know, uh you know, doing those kind of practices that are are more sustainable.
46:13
I think the thing that people don't realize that if we use those kind of practices, that is the best one of the best tools we have to sequester our carbon.
46:21
Um so, agriculture is not only a a challenge to when it comes to sustainability and and our environmental challenges with with greenhouse gas emissions, it's a it's a significant producer of.
46:29
But, it it actually, unlike other aspects of the challenge, it can actually be part of the solution.
46:36
And so, there's there's there's exciting opportunity there that we don't see in too many other sectors that need to change.
46:41
Yeah, I'm I'm excited about the potential for uh kind of soil replenishment because I feel like it could be effective in marketing product. Does that make sense?
46:55
Like, there's a there's a kind of economic self-interest that I think could be harnessed. Yes.
46:58
Somebody could create the proper campaign.
47:01
Um what uh what do you see or what do you think the future is, if any, of uh say organic subsidies um for people who really want to or large companies that really want to produce organic produce, but view it as cost-prohibitive or or something along those lines? Yeah.
47:18
So, this is obviously a very complicated uh complicated question and a really complicated politics.
47:24
I think the place, and this again is hard to get people super excited about, but I think the place to really start is in research.
47:32
So, over the last about 50 years, we poured the vast majority, I mean, you know, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, billions of dollars, into researching just a couple crops.
47:40
Um and uh fruits and vegetables uh writ large have not gotten Mostly, it's gone to corn and soy, some wheat, but mostly corn and soy.
47:52
Um and that has allowed corn and soy to be produced much more efficiently um than it used to.
48:00
And so a lot of the price difference we talk about like the relative cost of of say sugar and other things versus uh uh fruit or vegetable it is because we figured out how to grow those crops much more efficiently.
48:13
And so if we invest that same kind of research to try to figure out how to grow fruits and vegetables more efficiently, we're going to make up a lot of the ground.
48:20
Now, part of the challenge is that, you know, the people who are currently growing, say their fruits and vegetables, no matter even whether they're doing it organic or not organic, they like the fact that they're the only ones growing it.
48:32
So they not support subsidies for other people to grow more fruits and vegetables. Oh, that's interesting.
48:38
So there's really tough politics because in Washington if the people you're trying to help are against you, it's going to be very hard to move anything through.
48:47
It's hard to move anything through if they're with you because there's always going to be people be people on the other side fighting very hard and investing a lot of money in in seeing that not happen.
48:57
So on this particular one, it the politics are really hard to get Congress to to to shift where we're putting some of these substances.
49:04
Now, on the organic side, which is a different set of questions, I think the market's going to have to continue to drive the change and you're seeing organic you know, continue to grow at a very rapid rate although it's a still a very small part of the overall food economy.
49:24
But I think the more consumers demand it, I think the more it's going to get grown and and it's going to become increasingly more affordable for farmers to to produce it when we get some more scale there.
49:33
some more scale there. Yeah, it's it's a such a thorny gnarly topic and I would I would suggest just as a side note for folks who perhaps want to eat organic but have to pick and choose for financial reasons or otherwise there's a list called the dirty dozen and I think it might be the clean 15, which is sort of the the 12 items produce items that are best avoided that have the highest
49:58
concentrations of pesticides, but I think the research is really as you noted, super important because if it's one thing in the abstract to say organic is better for reasons A, B, and C and avoiding synthetic pesticides, but if if someone could actually look at say the the endocrine impact of estrogenic compounds that are found in synthetic fertilizers that therefore affect fertility or whatever, then I think the it could get more airtime. Yeah. Yeah.
50:28
I will I will I I will say just on one one thing on this point though.
50:30
You know, I think people should try to eat organic when they can, but I think they need to eat fruits and vegetables first and foremost.
50:37
So, I think part of the the thing to be concerned about is well, I I would much rather people eat conventional any conventional fruit or vegetable than like organic chips or organic cupcakes, right?
50:50
And and I think you know, I we're getting better.
50:55
People are raising more awareness.
50:57
Our agricultural practices are getting better largely because this stuff is getting more and more expensive, so farmers are learning how to be more diligent about their applications.
51:07
There's obviously a lot lot longer to go, but there's going to be some things where we're going to need some insecticides and some pesticides, and I think that's okay as long as they're being used responsibly.
51:18
But but I don't want people I think part of the thing we need to avoid is sort of fear-based if you eat this, it's going to kill you because there's just not the evidence there.
51:28
There there's there's reasons for serious concern and and continue engagement and pushing on on some of these topics, but but it shouldn't keep anybody from from consuming that kind of that balanced diet that that we know is important.
51:42
Do you So, there was an article that came out recently by Steve Case called the future of food is food. Mhm.
51:51
What do you What is your What are your thoughts on meal replacements like Soylent and so on? Yeah.
51:57
So I I actually tweeted about um I tweeted about that article.
51:59
I I I couldn't agree with with Steve more.
52:01
I mean, Steve basically makes the argument that sort of high-tech uh artif- like artificially put together drinks that you know are based on some science, you know, kind of could replace food.
52:17
Um and I think the the vision for for the folks at Soylent is that they can create a perfect meal.
52:23
So instead of eating a bunch of junk, you can just conveniently drink this.
52:27
Um so I I I I don't I don't hate the sort of the vision there in the sense that they're trying to do something good.
52:34
But if the future is a disgusting, tasteless uh soulless beverage to sustain, you know, just to keep us alive, that's not a future I have much interest in being a part of.
52:46
I think I think it lacks authenticity. I think it lacks flavor.
52:52
I think it lacks happiness and joy.
52:54
And all of that goes into what a good good nourishment means to me.
52:57
And I think I see a role for maybe with elderly people and and others for improved sort of dietary supplement, you know, uh meals like that, but I don't think that's a solution that uh I for one have any interest in participating in.
53:14
Uh I think real good food grown properly that supports the people who are growing it, that supports the health of the people who are eating it, that also is damn good is where we should all be you know, driving for.
53:30
Yeah, I've I've done an about-face on this stuff cuz I've always been a kind of supplement addict and uh been infatuated with pills and potions and whatnot as as supplementation, but I mean, there's they're called supplements for a reason and I've really found that um echoing the sentiment of say Nassim Taleb wrote The Black Swan and Antifragile.
53:50
So, he he uses a term called epistemological or yeah, epistemological arrogance, which is sort of overestimating how much you understand about anything as a human.
54:01
And I think it's it's naive to think I've come to this conclusion anyway that you can that we would understand every element of what's in an apple for instance or what's in a slice of ribeye.
54:13
Like we we just there's so much uncharted territory that it's naive to think we could take the four or five things we've isolated, put them in a pill, and and uh sort of confer the same nutritional benefit for instance.
54:32
I mean, that's kind of point number one.
54:33
But, um yeah, it's it's a very interesting it's a it's very very fascinating subject, but I've I've I've gone completely in the in the whole food direction just trying to consume a spectrum of colors every day for instance.
54:47
Um the um So, can can I I want to add something to that?
54:51
I think that is on the nutritional side that that basic point and understanding of our limitations couldn't be more right.
54:56
I mean, we've tried very hard to kind of reduce uh our health to one vitamin or fiber or this or that in a very reductionist way and utterly miss the interplay between all of these different vitamins, nutrients, fiber, protein.
55:15
And also, by the way, completely miss how our body processes it.
55:19
So, it's turning out that, you know, we have a hundred trillion bacteria in our gut.
55:23
A hundred trillion, which really what we're doing is feeding that bacteria, which then in turn feeds us.
55:31
And it's going to the evidence is emerging that the microbiome that the gut bacteria is going to be one of the most important things to focus on in terms of improving our health and that we've lost quite a bit of diversity in our gut.
55:43
And we don't but there's you know, a couple hundred species of bacteria in our gut, a little less, and we are just trying to figure out what does what and how they interact and it's everybody's different.
55:54
The complexities here are just overwhelming.
55:58
Um, we know that they need to be fed a high diet of fiber, lots of fruits and vegetables, basically what they feed.
56:04
And from birth, so like we for a long time there was parts of breast milk that we the babies couldn't digest and we didn't understand, we didn't think they were important.
56:13
But it turns out actually all those elements in breast milk are feeding the emerging biome in the young in the babies gut, which is then gives it the deals with the immune system and and inflammation and all these vital things and and uh, digesting of food.
56:26
So there's like the complexity is beyond anything that we can comprehend right now.
56:30
And um, I think we've continually like over and over try to say it was oh, it's fat is the problem and like turns out okay, wait, fat's not the problem.
56:41
Oh, it's a deficiency in omega this and then okay, well, it turns out well, that's good, but it's not certainly the panacea that it was made out to be, you know.
56:50
Every time we do this, we get it wrong.
56:52
And so I I agree with you.
56:52
I mean, I think there's some things that have been tested over the millennia and um, which is that kind of balanced good diet of, you know, whole grains and lots of fruits and vegetables, lean proteins.
57:04
And I think that's where um, we we we're safest is when we stay in that kind of uh, that kind of space.
57:14
And I'm glad you mentioned safest because it's it's not just oops, I didn't cover all my bases.
57:18
When you take a very reductionist approach, uh, for instance, when people uh, when the media got its hands on the so-called promises of beta carotene, and if started consuming massive amounts of beta carotene in isolation, it can actually cause a lot of problems when you're not sort of consuming it in its natural uh environment, so to speak.
57:39
But, um I'd love to shift gears and ask some some rapid-fire questions.
57:44
They don't have to have rapid answers, but when you think of the word successful, who is the first person who comes to mind and why? Mhm.
57:56
Well, two people come to mind.
57:57
Uh Barack Obama and my and my father, but for wildly different reasons.
58:04
Uh I mean, Barack Obama's, you know, success to me I measure based on um impact and the amount of impact that um somebody's trying to have in a positive way But, it's sort of what you do with the place that you've been given.
58:21
And, you know, I'm there's lots of legitimate disagreements in in in politics.
58:25
And, I'm sure there's legitimate disagreements with some of the things that the president has has done.
58:30
But, he is, you know, I know um first hand on a daily basis that here's somebody who's trying to and has had a massive positive impact on the world around him.
58:41
So, that that's something that um you know, I I very much look up to and admire and and you know, in my much much much smaller way try to figure out how I can have the the biggest positive impact on the world around me.
58:55
And, I'd say But, on the flip side, you know, but that takes you know, there's a lot of mission that goes with that and all you know, disappointments when you fail.
59:01
Um on the flip side, like success my father is um he is a he's a fifth grade teacher.
59:07
Has he just retired after 25 years.
59:10
Um uh he lives an incredibly humble life and, you know, was a you know, a union guy growing up and and and a and then a teacher in in a union guy and sort of in the school.
59:22
And, he um he he's utterly content.
59:28
Uh he he has a uh a good community of friends.
59:31
He's you know has roof over his head and and and meals on his table.
59:34
In fact, when I first looked at a restaurant in Chicago, he had never spent $20 on a meal for himself, which I only found out when I invited him in for a meal at the end of my summer time there.
59:46
Um and so he's just very content in in like the simple pleasures in the sort of a simple life.
59:52
And I and that's something that um uh is you know I I I also try to take into what success looks like is is is that kind of contentness and being appreciative of of of what you have.
1:00:06
Right, having the appreciation not just the drive for achievement. Yeah.
1:00:12
What's what book uh or what is a book that you've gifted most often or gifted very often to other people? Mm. That I've gifted.
1:00:21
Uh I've been pushing around The Art of Fielding over the last year or two uh by Chad Harbach. I love that book.
1:00:30
It's like it's it's so it's a baseball theme, but it's really about life and and and all that goes with it and complexities of relationships.
1:00:36
And I don't know, there's something that that book just sucked me in and and it I love the feeling of being sucked in, which you know, doesn't happen with that intensity too often. So I I was a good one. The Art of Fielding.
1:00:48
Are there any uh any documentaries documentary films or movies that have sucked you in in that way? Mm. I love documentaries.
1:00:57
I'm I'm a big fan uh and a good and a great movie as well.
1:01:03
The The last one I just saw actually just came out um which I really loved called Just Eat It.
1:01:06
Uh it's about food waste.
1:01:09
Um Well, we waste 40% of the food we produce, uh which is just insane.
1:01:14
There's no other major like life system that is so inefficient.
1:01:19
Um and it's about this couple that um basically for I forget how long, 6 months, decides to only eat food that they has been wasted that they find thrown away in some way, shape, or form.
1:01:33
And it's unbelievable story.
1:01:33
It's so really well done. It's only an hour.
1:01:35
Um, I think it just aired on MSNBC actually, but they they are have to have to give away food they find so much of it.
1:01:42
Um, they can't eat it all.
1:01:44
Um and it's so it's very powerful, very well done.
1:01:48
Um, but that's the one that's top of mind.
1:01:51
I'll have to check that out.
1:01:51
That uh makes me think there's a book I read a long time ago.
1:01:55
I think it's called The Man Who Gave Up Money or The Man Who Stopped Using Money, Something Along Those Lines, But It Delves Into Sort of the Dumpster Diving Freegan Movement, I Guess They Call Them Instead of Vegans. Really fast ending. Uh Yeah.
1:02:10
What uh What $100 or less purchase has had the biggest positive impact on your life in the last 6 months to a year?
1:02:18
Let's just Whatever comes to mind, doesn't have to be in that time frame.
1:02:24
Um, yeah, the recent purchase I got a I got a Kindle uh recently, which I hadn't had before.
1:02:29
Uh, which has been great.
1:02:32
Uh, you know, I I know people I'm like way be you know, behind the curve and it's not the highest tech way to read a read read things, but it's but it's been great cuz I'm all over the place and then so that's helps.
1:02:42
I also got an ice bucket.
1:02:44
And uh it's made the rosé that much colder as summer is starting to hit and that's been oh, an investment well worthwhile. That's a good call. Ice bucket. Yeah. Love rosé.
1:02:57
There's a great you know, I um just bought Long Island.
1:03:00
There's a wonderful rosé from uh Wolffer Estates. Yeah. Yeah, I know that. It's really good.
1:03:06
Yeah, the wine maker Roman is just amazing.
1:03:09
Um, not too expensive either.
1:03:11
Uh, what what does the first 60 minutes of your day look like?
1:03:14
Do you What What are morning rituals, whether when you were at the White House or now, that have been consistent for you?
1:03:25
Um So, pretty consistent basic routine.
1:03:26
Um the one variable in that like I used to do a lot more I I don't do anymore.
1:03:35
Like first thing I love to do from a perfect world is to do a short stint of meditation for like 10 or 15 minutes.
1:03:41
Uh it's been hard for me to keep that as impossible for me to do that at the White House for whatever reason.
1:03:46
I just think mentally quieting and slowing my mind was just something that I just it wouldn't do.
1:03:50
It's It's harder I tried.
1:03:52
Um and exhaustion uh also played a role.
1:03:55
But I wake up and um uh work out uh 5 or 6 days a week.
1:04:03
Um do about 30 minutes of cardio and then do weights of various uh sort of sets.
1:04:08
Um What type of cardio do you do?
1:04:11
So, I'll do 10 minutes uh on the bike.
1:04:15
And then now I've been doing like 12-minute, you know, interval interval run run and then um I'm doing like another 10 minutes in in like 12 incline walking at 3. 5 on the treadmill.
1:04:26
Um sometimes I do the elliptical um in there.
1:04:32
And then and then do weights.
1:04:32
Um And then and then uh so in the White House it was always, you know, take a shower, get ready, and then I do oatmeal, a banana, and coffee.
1:04:44
Since I've been uh out of the White House, I've been doing eggs um one of you know, a couple ways.
1:04:51
Uh some like whole wheat toast, with maybe some avocado, maybe a little salmon, and then and and coffee. That's been the routine. And then away I go.
1:05:02
Do you do it Do you do anything in particular before bed?
1:05:06
Uh that I don't have that same kind of routine at night.
1:05:10
Often cuz nights are like much more variable.
1:05:13
Like the morning has always been the time that I take for myself.
1:05:18
Um and carve out because after that it's like anybody's guess what's going to happen.
1:05:23
Um but try to you know try to come bring down a little bit but often times in certainly at the White House I was working till 1:00, 2:00, 3:00 in the morning pretty consistently.
1:05:30
So Um it's sort of like you work till you fell off fell off your chair crawled into bed and then got up a few hours later and start doing it all over again.
1:05:41
So Um so I don't have that same kind of night routine. Got it.
1:05:47
And when you when you meditated what type of meditation did you do?
1:05:49
What did that what did that look like?
1:05:54
Um so I So I the the woman who taught me is one of the most amazing people I've ever known.
1:06:01
She was an 80-year-old woman who's actually from France who I met when I was traveling on the border of Malaysia and and Thailand on an overnight train.
1:06:10
She was 80 years old and she had spent the last like 20 plus years of her life just traveling with a teeny little like 8-lb backpack and that's all she had and she went everywhere and she was just the most amazing person and she Um so it's like you know but she's not like a you know formal teacher.
1:06:27
So you know just trying to sit up you know have good posture and just you know fundamentally relax and focus on my breathing is like as sophisticated as I got.
1:06:38
Um and trying to let your mind relax and and repeating that forcing your mind to get back to that state which is you know it's always been such a challenge. It's so hard.
1:06:49
Um Uh has as sort of how I would do it for as long as I as I could.
1:06:53
But when I do it I feel so much better and so much more grounded and and sort of calm through the day.
1:07:01
It's uh but it takes a lot of discipline to carve out the time um in any given day.
1:07:07
I Yeah, I found for myself because I meditate 15 to 20 minutes each morning. Uh usually 20.
1:07:16
Two things really interesting.
1:07:16
Number one, it takes about 15 minutes for me just to let the dust and the or the mud settle. Um Mhm.
1:07:25
So I really only feel like I'm meditating uh in the calm sense for the last 5 minutes, but it's the You need I need the 15 minutes just as a warm-up or a cool down maybe.
1:07:33
And then secondly, that posture I've noticed if I just sit with very good posture and kind of lengthen my spine, imagine my head being kind of pulled up on a string, even if I don't get to some sublime state, if I just focus and sit that way for 20 minutes, there's a huge benefit for me anyway.
1:07:53
I feel the same way about that. Yep.
1:07:55
Uh would love to ask some questions from people on Facebook and Twitter who are very excited that we were going to be chatting.
1:08:03
Uh the first is a tough one, uh but it's from Andrew Zimmern. Uh I love that man. He's awesome. Andrew's great.
1:08:10
He had also been on the podcast and he wanted to ask some questions because he hears them very often.
1:08:14
He gets asked them very often and it's always curious uh how other people answer them.
1:08:18
So uh the the first is uh if it's illegal to sell cigarettes to minors or drugs / booze, why do we let fast food or sugar drinks into schools? Yeah. So great question. So uh a couple points.
1:08:33
So one, um because of the new standards uh that are in play, um there are no more sugary drinks in schools. And those are out.
1:08:40
Um and I actually need to give the you know, the beverage companies credit.
1:08:45
They actually voluntarily voluntarily pulled out most of those beverages around starting in around 2007.
1:08:51
But the new standards utterly eliminate all sugary drinks.
1:08:54
Um You can have a low-calorie In high school, you can have a low-calorie Gatorade and you can have no-calorie drinks.
1:09:01
So diet sodas are allowed in high schools, not in middle schools, and certainly not in lower schools.
1:09:05
Um so, those drinks are out.
1:09:07
On the fast food side, um I have always been pretty appalled that some of these, particularly the less healthy, companies have set up shop in high schools.
1:09:19
Now, this is not ubiquitous by any stretch of the imagination, but they definitely exist in some number.
1:09:25
Um I actually need to look and see because their food does not meet the standards.
1:09:29
So, unless they're changing their offerings.
1:09:32
So, I am not sure how many like where where they are in the evolution of either what they're offering in schools or if some of them have had to pull out.
1:09:41
You know, the truth is I don't know the answer that, but I'll I'll dig into that and come back to you on it. Um but I agree.
1:09:46
I think it's really inappropriate um to be serving, you know, have a fast food, pretty unhealthy restaurant set up in a in a high school.
1:09:55
I find that to be I've always found that to be very off-putting. Cool.
1:10:02
Uh yeah, would love uh for people listening who participate on the blog, uh obviously there'll be a post with all the links and resources and so on, including things like uh you know, organizations like American Farmland Trust that have done stuff with if you want to sort of get involved with some of these things, but I would love to hear ideas for what types of campaigns or angles could be taken to remedy that from folks.
1:10:23
Uh I do pay attention to the comments.
1:10:26
Uh next question is from CinemaAir. This is on Twitter.
1:10:30
Best use of wine that's too old to drink.
1:10:34
So, um you know, depending on the kind of wine and you know, I think there's there's probably a little magic depending on where you are and how it goes, but you know, that's how you make vinegar.
1:10:43
So, uh you know, grape juice turns into vinegar, right?
1:10:46
So, um there you could depending on how it goes, you can use it kind of in that in that way.
1:10:54
A lot of people use it for cooking, uh you know, no no real chef would say you should.
1:11:02
Uh if it's not good to drink with it's really not good to cook with.
1:11:04
So, the truth is like there's uh there's not much to do with it. I got to be honest.
1:11:10
I would get but but at least not that I know of.
1:11:12
I'm maybe somebody out there's got a good thing, but basically like drink it before it goes bad is my best advice to you.
1:11:19
And you know, the thing that you know, if you get just one of those simple air pumps with with the with the rubber top that pulls the air out, you add you know, a week or two depending on the wine of life to it. And that's what I use.
1:11:34
You know, we use that in our house.
1:11:37
And it makes a big difference cuz there's nothing worse There's like one of the worst feelings in the world is dumping out a half a bottle of wine that you didn't get to finish. Yeah, that's a pain.
1:11:45
The the vacuum is really cheap and really effective. I I use the same device.
1:11:52
Uh on that point uh Steffen, I think it's Steffen uh Bendall, what should home chefs stop doing?
1:12:02
So, wasting wine would be one.
1:12:05
Wow, what should home chefs stop doing?
1:12:08
Love There's there's a few things.
1:12:11
Um What should home chefs start doing?
1:12:12
I need to spend more time with home chefs to give you the best answer.
1:12:15
Uh I think dragging the knife across the cutting board like as like a shovel is something that like you're never supposed to do.
1:12:24
If you need to like move like the vegetables to scoop them up, use the back side of the knife, but like scraping the knife on the cutting board just drives me crazy.
1:12:31
It's just really bad for your knife. Dulls it immediately.
1:12:35
Um something that I cringe at.
1:12:35
I think um chefs that home cooks needed to um work with heat uh like not be afraid of of of heat more.
1:12:44
So, particularly when you're searing fish, so you need that pan hot.
1:12:47
And so, letting like putting it in like getting your pan super hot and then putting your fish down and leaving it and not touching it and letting it get that nice, you know, uh good sear, good golden brown on it before you touch it, is like key to fish.
1:13:03
And most Most people don't get their pan hot enough. Don't heat it.
1:13:06
Don't ever get it hot enough.
1:13:06
Don't take the time to heat it and then play around with the fish, which which ends up really hurting its its ultimate, um feel.
1:13:14
But I think allowing I think basically one thing that's the big difference between a pro and a home cook is that like the the getting real color on things, be it meat or any vegetable that's on the grill or anything you're putting in the pan, like just let it go.
1:13:29
When you think it's like ready, like give it another minute or two and like get that really dark dark color on it. It adds a ton of flavor.
1:13:37
When can you tell that your pan is hot enough for that nice sear on a fish?
1:13:43
So like when you put the oil in, like you don't want it to immediately start smoking.
1:13:46
Like then your oil's done.
1:13:46
Like don't put it in there if it's like you put it in and it's like smoke.
1:13:50
But like you should see the oil get that kind of those lines in it that kind of shimmer and it should just start to give off a little bit of like you could see just a little bit of smoke.
1:14:00
Um the That's when you're you're ready to go.
1:14:03
But it should be like hot.
1:14:05
Like when you put it in it should be like Like it should be like go crazy.
1:14:08
Like if it's just like a little mild bubble, like you're not you weren't ready.
1:14:12
And what what type of oil do you like to use with with fish, for instance?
1:14:17
Um you know, you can use a lot.
1:14:19
Like you can use olive oil.
1:14:20
It has a lower smoke point, but you can you can get away with it.
1:14:24
Um I like grapeseed oil is a great oil to cook with.
1:14:27
Um you know, you can do high heat canola. It's totally fine.
1:14:30
Um uh Those are probably the main ones to to go with.
1:14:36
Peanut oil is awesome, but that's the more expensive.
1:14:39
Yeah, I've been playing myself a little bit with avocado oil because it has high, you know, omega-3 content, decent smoke point, but it's so rich. Yeah.
1:14:50
You can some kind depending on the food, you can use either enhance or completely contaminate what you're trying to trying to make.
1:14:56
Uh Next question is from Chaos Sonata.
1:15:00
Uh when you fall into a rut in the kitchen, uh what book, resource, or person do you turn to for inspiration? Oh, interesting.
1:15:09
Um so, I don't Yeah, it's a good I mean, I try to get out and eat or go to the store or go like see and feel and touch and smell is the thing that I try to do when I'm when I'm just sort of feel dead and use the actual ingredients to inspire what I'm going to do.
1:15:24
But, I'd say the book that I that I look at I really don't look at cookbooks that a ton anymore, but the one recently that I have is all of Ottolenghi's books are awesome.
1:15:35
How do you Oh, wait a second here. I know this name.
1:15:38
Uh how do you spell that name or the first name? Um Ottolenghi.
1:15:42
Let me let me um O O T T O L E N Uh let me let me just pull it up for you. Um O T T O L E N G H I.
1:15:57
Uh he is an incredible chef, him and his partner.
1:16:00
Uh actually one is he's uh you know, they're Palestinian and Israeli uh uh team, couple.
1:16:07
And um they have Plenty is probably their most famous book, but they have Jerusalem and plenty more.
1:16:15
Their books are just spectacular and the recipes are simple, but so delicious.
1:16:20
Um I I I I I definitely cooked a few out of them and they're always they're always awesome.
1:16:27
If someone is new to healthy cooking, where would you suggest they start?
1:16:30
What could they start with?
1:16:34
As a Yeah, any anything simple they could they could use to get the ball rolling? In terms of like a dish? Uh Or or a bowl?
1:16:42
Uh, dish stocking the kitchen, unstocking the kitchen.
1:16:47
It was it's it's a general question.
1:16:48
So, I'd say you can interpret it any way you want.
1:16:52
So, I think the key is like starting simple.
1:16:53
I think people whenever they approach like, "Okay, I want to make a change."
1:16:56
They think I got to overhaul everything.
1:16:58
And so, then they try to do a dramatic thing and then and then of course it's not sustainable. You can't keep that up.
1:17:04
You revert back to kind of who you've been and it then you just completely stop.
1:17:08
So, I would think like little things.
1:17:10
So, one place to start is vinegar.
1:17:12
If you want to start with small like getting really good vinegar makes a like a salad go from really uninspired to really delicious.
1:17:18
So, one place that I did actually invest a little of you're going to invest a little resource in is getting some really nice vinegar to make really beautiful salads.
1:17:26
And salads are like some some some kind of green.
1:17:29
Like a good combo is some kind of some kind of leaf um some kind of texture be a cucumber or fennel or you know, various things. Acidity.
1:17:40
So, you could add you know, any kind of citrus fruit is always great or just a really nice vinegar.
1:17:44
Some nuts of some kind and a cheese of some kind like a Parmesan or Pecorino or given if you like that kind of basic components it's hard to really make it terrible.
1:17:56
Sometimes cheese can throw you off so you can you know, play around with that.
1:18:00
But, you get good texture, you get good flavor and if you have a nice vinegar like the world is yours and that's a really good place to just add some salad on and you know, to your dinner is a is a great place to start.
1:18:11
But, I would just try to add a piece of fruit.
1:18:12
Try to add another thing of vegetables at at dinner.
1:18:17
Like if you just start there, those two things and I think the other main thing to start is drinking more water.
1:18:23
Um uh there's nothing better than water.
1:18:27
The more water you drink the less you know, sugary beverages you're going to drink which is you know, really key if you're going to try to live a healthier life and um you know, that that's a great place to start and then from there you can you build from there.
1:18:43
Yeah, the water just to echo that for people who might be following a diet of any type, slow carb or paleo or whatever to try to lose fat, if your liver is burdened by even partial dehydration, it's just not going to do a very good job of helping you to you know, oxidize fat.
1:18:59
So, I've I've noticed tremendously even with getting into say ketosis cuz I'm experimenting with that.
1:19:03
More water I drink, the more I walk, uh the better off I am, the faster I'll drop into say ketosis.
1:19:10
Um but uh the the other thing just on your point with um nuts and cheese, if if I've it seems like with almost any dish, if someone wants to impress a dinner guest, just put parmesan and sliced almonds on anything and it looks really it looks really fancy and it tastes amazing. Yeah.
1:19:30
Uh And on that note, uh this is Will McLeran.
1:19:36
Uh There may not be a best meal, but what's the best meal to impress a girl with but is easy to make?
1:19:45
This is I'm sure a question.
1:19:45
This is guys have a phobia, a lot of guys, of cooking in any capacity.
1:19:49
So, what would be a one meal that might impress a girl but that is easy to make? That's funny.
1:19:56
Uh Well, I was just talking to one of my best friends.
1:19:59
Uh in fact, that guy was with me in Vienna and and and he was telling me about uh a date he was on just yesterday and he was saying, "Oh yeah, I cooked that risotto again."
1:20:10
I you know, he's like, "Man, you told me that that one time and I've rolled with that for the last 10 years."
1:20:15
Uh I think a risotto is a really good, very easy dish uh to make that um that you can do a lot of things with that seems very fancy and impressive but isn't that hard.
1:20:26
Uh basically risotto is you start you know, you start with like an onion or a shallot. You cook that down. You cook your rice.
1:20:33
You have a a stock of some kind.
1:20:35
So, you can buy a nice chicken stock or veg um uh seafood stock depending on what you're going to put in there.
1:20:42
And make sure that's hot.
1:20:43
And then you're just adding some stock as you go and you So, sorry.
1:20:48
Onions and then you put the rice in, mix that around, a little white wine, and let that evaporate.
1:20:51
And then you're just adding stock as you go until the rice is like done.
1:20:55
You want it to be a little, you know, al dente.
1:20:58
You want it to be a little have a little tooth to it.
1:21:01
So, you don't want it mushy.
1:21:03
Um and then you just finish it with whatever you want.
1:21:04
If you're going to have like some scallops in there, you can do a whole seafood thing.
1:21:07
You can do a lamb risotto.
1:21:09
You could You can do a vegetable risotto.
1:21:11
You can do anything you want.
1:21:13
And it's hard to mess it up because you finish it with a little butter, some olive oil, and a bunch of Parmesan cheese.
1:21:17
So, like it's like hard to go wrong there.
1:21:22
Um and it's sort of one of those dishes that uh it's hard to make it perfect, but it's it's it's Easy to make it good. Easy to make it good.
1:21:31
Uh God, that's so true for so many things in life, right?
1:21:34
Um So, so I want to get a little granular on this cuz I'd actually like to try to make it this weekend.
1:21:39
So, you you you take the onions or the shallots, those are uh pretty thinly sliced, right?
1:21:46
Um Yeah, you want to dice those up.
1:21:49
You want to make them, you know, very small dice, like a mince. Got it.
1:21:51
And then you throw that in the pan or pot, I guess pot in this case, with some like olive oil.
1:21:58
And you just uh Would you have olive oil Would you Would you have some type of oil in there to start with? Yep. Yep.
1:22:02
So, you have some olive oil. You put that in.
1:22:03
You cook it a little bit.
1:22:05
Um then you put in your rice.
1:22:07
And, you know, you depending on how many people you have, you know, cup cup to two cups, you know, if you're not doing a ton, you know, a cup of rice should probably be enough if it's two will will be enough for it's two people.
1:22:18
And you cook that a little bit, get that covered and coated.
1:22:20
And then you add, you know, a bit of of white wine.
1:22:22
Now, the stock is the stock already in there?
1:22:28
The stock's not in there.
1:22:28
Stock should be in a separate separate pot.
1:22:31
And it should be you should it should be hot.
1:22:33
You should bring that to a boil and keep that warm. Got it.
1:22:34
Um Okay, so onions, then the cook that down, let it kind of car- caramelize a little bit.
1:22:39
Uh no, actually you don't want color on it. You don't want color. Okay.
1:22:43
And then you then you add the rice, then you add so you have a cup of of rice, how much white wine would you put in there?
1:22:52
Yeah, I'm not a and I'm not a great recipe guy.
1:22:53
Like you just want to get a nice like couple splashes in there. Like Yeah, I know. That's fine.
1:22:57
I don't know, maybe like a a quarter cup. Okay.
1:22:58
Um at the most and then you you cook that down.
1:23:04
So you want when you when you know you're you want to get rid of all the alcohol.
1:23:07
So you know that like when you lean over the pot and you kind of put the what's evaporating kind of you you put your nose over that.
1:23:13
If it kind of burns the inside of your nose, you know that there's still alcohol burning off.
1:23:19
And like once that sort of burning sensation comes and it's just like okay, that smells good, then you know you're you're ready to go.
1:23:25
It should be pretty dry it should be dry basically um before you then start adding your stock. Got it.
1:23:32
And then how long once you add the stock is the this sort of cocktail is it on like a medium heat or what's the heat?
1:23:39
Yeah, so you want it to be a nice simmer. Um uncovered simmer.
1:23:45
And you only use a wooden spoon because you don't want to damage the rice and you only want to use Arborio rice, really important.
1:23:51
Uh which is a nice starchy rice.
1:23:53
So you'll get a good a nice starchy kind of uh broth.
1:23:58
And so when you So yeah, so you So you just add the the stock as you go.
1:24:03
So you cook it you know, it'll start absorbing.
1:24:04
You realize okay, I'll need some more. You start absorbing. You keep adding.
1:24:08
And now if you run out of stock, you can finish with water, no problem.
1:24:11
Um uh you know, you want to heat the water up.
1:24:16
You don't want to put in a cold liquid into your risotto cuz that stops all the cooking process and can start breaking down the rice over if you do that too much. Um I like this idea.
1:24:24
I'm going to try this this weekend because it seems like you could also, for instance with like scallops which are so deceptively easy to cook, yeah, you can kind of muck around with the risotto and if you're kind of flying by the seat of your pants and half screwing it up, since the scallops only take whatever, you know, 4 minutes, 2 minutes to cook.
1:24:42
Um you can kind of do it last minute and just drop them in.
1:24:45
Yeah, so for like if you're using the bay scallops, the little guys, like basically when your risotto is basically done or just you yeah, you put them in, you just give it a stir and you turn it off and like they'll basically cook through
1:24:56
just as it settles cuz you want you'll want so at the end so you cook it and it's getting close at the whenever you're done so like when it's basically done then you put in your parmesan, you put in some butter, you put in a little olive oil and you give that a good stir. You're going to want to let it
1:25:09
You're going to want to let it just rest for a minute and it'll kind of come together.
1:25:13
If it dries up like when you put it on the plate, you want it to just kind of relax onto the plate.
1:25:16
Like you don't want to hold up and kind of a ball.
1:25:19
You don't want to run either.
1:25:19
So, you may need to add a little stock to make it you know, it should feel like it's got a little sauce but it's not saucy, right?
1:25:27
And but then you can literally add whatever you want, any kind of herbs, any flavor profile that you like.
1:25:33
Like if I love basil, asparagus and uh and zucchini, I can add that at the end, let that basically warm up and you guys should have a beautiful risotto.
1:25:45
If you're doing scallops, I love like a lemon seafood risotto.
1:25:47
So, you can add a bunch of lemon juice, a ton of lemon zest zest, like lots of lemon zest, maybe a squeeze of a lemon and say shrimp and scallops and and tarragon, it's a great herb for that one. Killer risotto.
1:26:00
So, you can That one will impress any any lady um whoever whoever asked that.
1:26:08
I'm going to try that this Saturday.
1:26:08
Uh question from Carrie Kaminski, uh what dish have you most frequently made for house guests? Wow.
1:26:20
Most dish most frequently made?
1:26:23
I don't know the answer to that, to be honest with you.
1:26:24
I mean, I love the grill.
1:26:26
I'm a just a grill freak.
1:26:26
It's super simple, less dishes, and biggest flavor.
1:26:32
So, I throw like when it's warm, I throw everything on the grill.
1:26:36
I grill all the vegetables.
1:26:38
Like I we grow eggplant, we grow like rapini, we grow peppers, zucchini.
1:26:41
I just It just all goes up there and it's like really healthy way to cook cuz you're using very little you don't need much, you know, there's no heavy fats or anything.
1:26:52
Um and I've been doing pork chops up there, some steak, even pieces of fish depending on what it is, shrimp. So, I don't know.
1:26:59
I just I just try to keep it fun and simple.
1:27:03
I think the the one thing is this actually kind of reminds me I think the one other difference between home cooks and and pros is this just acidity level.
1:27:10
Like at when you think it's ready, like add another lemon. Yeah, totally.
1:27:14
We always like pros bump up the the acidity level, which is what is like one of the it's like one of the secrets.
1:27:21
Just we add a little more acid and it makes everything taste better.
1:27:24
Yeah, seems like pros use lemon juice as as they might use salt a lot of the time. Yeah.
1:27:32
Uh what are some of the mistakes that people make with grilling?
1:27:38
Um what do they make with grilling?
1:27:38
One, the grill's not hot, so they end up not getting very good color.
1:27:45
Um two, I think that's the that's the main mistake.
1:27:49
Um I think uh they also like play with food too like when you throw it on there, like let it go.
1:27:56
Let it get that nice color and before you start moving around.
1:28:01
And um you know, I think grills are best when you get the sear, but like if you're doing a piece of meat or even a piece of fish, letting it finish in the oven even just for a minute or two, depending on how big your piece of of meat is, is the best way to do it because it it'll cook more evenly.
1:28:16
A lot of times if you're using a really hot grill, you'll get like a lot of well done and then like a little bit of rare or medium rare in the middle, but like the sides will be super dry and tough.
1:28:28
So, if you get a really hot grill, get a great sear, you lock the flavor in and then you finish in the oven and it's always the best way to do it.
1:28:34
Yeah, to to avoid the black and blue steak. Yeah.
1:28:36
Uh Next question is from Daniel Lohorn.
1:28:39
Uh what is the best way to systematically develop and refine your palate?
1:28:44
And I'll I'll just I'll modify that and say what is what is one simple way to start systematically developing and refining your palate?
1:28:56
Wow, that's an interesting question.
1:28:58
I've never I've never I've never been asked that.
1:28:59
I I think um I think basically just tasting everything you possibly can.
1:29:07
And really tasting it, like thinking about it, like breaking down the flavor, and just paying attention to it.
1:29:11
Um smelling things, so smell is a really uh fundamental part of taste, way more than we realize.
1:29:19
So, I would, you know, make sure you're really smelling, touching, and tasting as much as you possibly can.
1:29:25
Eat at restaurants, um go to farmers markets, um try things out.
1:29:28
And the more you taste, like the more you'll start understanding the the subtleties and complexities.
1:29:34
Um like I don't know of I I don't know of a resource.
1:29:37
I mean, that's just the way I learned is like cooking and tasting things, and that's the way most chefs learn.
1:29:44
I don't know of a resource that's like a guide to palate development.
1:29:46
Um I'm sure there's something out there, but I don't I don't know of it.
1:29:50
Yeah, it's uh it this was a this was a a question I had to tackle for myself um when I was attempting to learn to cook in the beginning.
1:30:02
So, I would I would say to Daniel a couple things really helped me.
1:30:05
The first was uh going to restaurants going to the same restaurant say 5 days in a row and maybe you can't do 5 days, but going there regularly enough on off days like Tuesday to Thursday uh Monday to Thursday to get to know the staff um always keeping the menu with you when you're eating so you can you can read along as you eat dishes so you know what's in it like the five or six seven ingredients whatever might be.
1:30:34
Uh smelling your food before you eat it.
1:30:37
Looks kind of weird, but uh it's smelling food before eating cuz I've I've always had chronic well up until I started using um kind of sinus rinses I had chronic sinusitis and I had a lot of trouble smelling.
1:30:49
Um and then uh last thing would be for unfamiliar ingredients that are mixed into a dish and this is part of the reason that you would go during the week asking them to give you a little bit on the side so that you can taste it individually before you uh eat it in the mix I found.
1:31:08
And there's there's a fun book called The Flavor Bible also that Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a great that is a cool book and a lot of chefs use that to come up with unusual flavor combinations.
1:31:16
Next question is from Abe Diaz.
1:31:16
Uh if you had to pack the essence of life into a burrito, what would that burrito be like?
1:31:25
The essence of life into a burrito? Yeah, yeah.
1:31:29
Uh meaning like what would the ingredients be?
1:31:30
Like the food ingredients? Yeah. Wow. All right, here we go.
1:31:35
Um Uh okay, I think I would have you'd have um uh you know, you'd have some brown rice in there for like fortitude sustenance for like you know, your grit and determination.
1:31:50
Um I would have um avocado lots of avocado for like the richness of life beauty color flavor like excitement.
1:32:00
I would have um What would be my protein?
1:32:07
I'd definitely have beans.
1:32:10
Um Uh I think beans are like the you know the seed, their growth.
1:32:14
Uh And they they they they harness promise for me, hope, you know, opportunity, optimism.
1:32:23
Um I'd have a little maybe a little skirt steak for strength and Um but not a lot.
1:32:30
Um And I'd have a habanero salsa for like the spice, the excitement.
1:32:40
Uh the you know, so the in being vigorous uh part of what makes life so amazing.
1:32:45
Um And then maybe I'd let the chef throw in one other mystery ingredient uh to stimulate curiosity, which I think is uh the most important or underappreciated quality of uh uh of of people who live such great, successful, awesome lives, which is just just like being curious about the world around them.
1:33:12
So I I let the I let the chef throw a mystery a mystery ingredient in there. How's that? I love it.
1:33:16
I looks like looks like my cheat day on Saturday is going to be risotto and burritos among other things.
1:33:24
If uh if just uh two more questions.
1:33:24
Uh this is this is really fun and uh people can certainly uh let us know if if they want more more Sam.
1:33:32
I'm I'm sure a lot of people will.
1:33:35
The The two two more questions for you.
1:33:39
The The first is if you could give your let's just say uh give yourself advice when you were just graduating from UChicago.
1:33:47
What advice would that be?
1:33:52
Um Wow, it's a great question.
1:33:55
Um It Well, if I were to give myself advice when I graduated from when I went in, I would have said, "Study a little harder, you know, uh work a little harder."
1:34:04
But I when I when I left, I mean, I I think the advice that I um that uh that I live by or that which it kind of holds, which is basically get out there in the world, be open to it, explore it, um uh be don't don't don't worry about having a a a a clear plan because I didn't know enough to have a clear plan.
1:34:28
Um and, you know, follow things that I really cared about and and and go all in when I when I found something that that interests me.
1:34:36
Because passion, like passion's an overstated word.
1:34:38
I mean, I think passion develops.
1:34:39
So, like I was really into food and and and was interested in it.
1:34:44
Um and I threw myself into into food, but I I it didn't become a passion till I can you know, really combine although I was like passionate about it.
1:34:52
Didn't it wasn't a life passion until I can like combine, you know, food and nourishment with health and sustainability and politics and policy and what we're doing to really help make sure that all people can live healthy, productive, you know, awesome lives through the food that they're eating.
1:35:10
Like that's what sort of became that that passion.
1:35:13
So, I think a lot of people are like, "Find your passion."
1:35:14
I think passion comes from a combination of being open, curious, of really going all in when you find something that um that you're interested in.
1:35:24
Um then that then that then that goes.
1:35:26
And I and I think always you're trying to figure out how to do the right thing, you know, trying to remember why you're doing what you're doing.
1:35:32
Um is are are kind of the lessons that I've tried to live by and and and they've they've served well.
1:35:36
And you know, getting out in the world gives you a perspective on uh wherever you are that I found to be transformative and um and just a foundation of of of who I am.
1:35:50
So, um it's been It's been good.
1:35:53
Now, I I I really want to underscore something you said that I think is really important, and that is just related to finding your passion.
1:36:01
A lot of people ask me how do How can I find my passion?
1:36:05
And I think that in their mind they see this singular thing that is this lightning bolt that knocks them off their feet.
1:36:12
And in my case, just like you, it was an unexpected combination of things that came together by trying a lot of things and being Not having In my case, I didn't have like a 5-year or 10-year plan.
1:36:23
It was I will do the best I can at this this next gig, whatever that is, and look for doors that open.
1:36:33
And uh so I I I don't want people to think to feel like, and I've seen people reflect this, feel like a failure because they they haven't had a single activity hit them like a in a cupid's arrow or whatever.
1:36:46
Um what If you could make one ask of the people listening to this, what would that ask be? Oh, great question.
1:36:53
Um what would be my one ask?
1:36:56
I think my one ask would just be to um to be engaged.
1:37:00
I think right now we're we're suffering from lack of engagement uh around some of the issues that really matter.
1:37:09
And you know, there's lots of solutions, there's lots of different ways to think about it, but particularly in food, I think, you know, there's you know, there's nothing more important than making sure our kids are getting food.
1:37:19
I mean, we have so many hungry kids in in in in the country.
1:37:21
We're wasting so much food.
1:37:23
We're not getting enough nourishing food.
1:37:25
In the face of climate change, there's going to be it's going to be even harder to grow healthy food and produce it at an affordable uh at an affordable price for people.
1:37:35
So, the challenges are higher.
1:37:35
And and while we're so I mean, so engaging and caring and trying to improve the food system through the choices that we're making every day is is start.
1:37:44
And I think for people who really get into it, it's starting to translate that into and into politics and actually caring about um these issues in terms of who's representing us in Washington.
1:37:55
And I think that's a um the politicians follow the people.
1:37:59
The and businesses follow the people.
1:38:01
Like they try to like shape decisions and they market etc.
1:38:05
But in the end, they're following. And so we need to lead.
1:38:07
And then we're leading every single day in ways that sometimes we're aware of and sometimes that we're not.
1:38:13
And so I think that kind of awareness and engagement can have a profound impact on what companies are producing and what policies are being made.
1:38:21
So I think um that's my big ask at least in my in my world.
1:38:26
But the truth is that that kind of same uh same principle applies to just about any issue.
1:38:33
Um and I think um we just the more we're engaged, the the the more democracy works. Agreed.
1:38:41
Yeah, give a damn people. Don't be apathetic.
1:38:43
Find Find something to get get excited about. Yeah. Uh and care about.
1:38:48
Uh Sam, where can people find you on the internet?
1:38:53
Uh where can people find you on uh Twitter?
1:38:56
I guess you're @chefsamcass. Yeah. Yep. @chefsamcass.
1:39:00
Um Instagram is samcassdc.
1:39:05
Um Facebook, to be honest with you, I set that up so long ago, I don't even know what my name is. I have to look that up.
1:39:11
I got to get on that, Tim.
1:39:13
You're the master of this.
1:39:16
You know, I'm fumbling my way through all the all the interwebs one day at a time.
1:39:20
Uh do you have a website where where people can can also check you out? Um no, not yet. That is in the works. In process. We'll In process.
1:39:28
I will I will share that with people when it is ready for for its for its big debut.
1:39:34
Uh Sam, well, this is this is great.
1:39:34
I really enjoyed hanging out. This was a lot of fun.
1:39:38
And uh for people listening, you can check out the links to resources, books mentioned, etc.
1:39:46
Uh in the show notes, and those show notes in the show notes for every other uh podcast are just at fourhourworkweek. com/podcast.
1:39:55
Uh but Sam, thank you so much for the time.
1:39:56
Tim, it's been awesome, man.
1:39:58
You're You're You're the best, and you're you're helping people live better lives, and it's It was uh It was an honor to be here with you, man. Thanks, buddy. I'll talk to you soon. All right. Take care. Bye.
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