I first met our next guest Sam mman almost 20 years ago when he was working on a local mobile app called looped we were both backed by seoa capital and in fact we were both in the first class of seoa Scouts he did investment in a little unknown fintech company called stripe I did Uber and in that tiny experiment did Uber I've never heard that before yeah I think so it's
possible starting already you should write a book Jacob maybe let your winners [Music] Rainman David and in said we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy [Music] with that tiny experimental fund that Sam and I were part of a Scouts is sequoia's highest multiple returning fund couple of low digigit Millions turned into over 200 million I'm told and then he did yeah that's what I was
told by ruoff yeah and he did a stint at Y combinator where he was president from 2014 to 2019 in 2016 he co-founded open AI with the goal of ensuring that artificial general intelligence benefits all of humanity in 2019 he left YC to join openai full-time as CEO things got really interesting on November 30th of 2022 that's the day open AI launched chat GPT in January 2023 Microsoft invested 10 billion in November 2023
over a crazy 5ay span Sam was fired from open AI everybody was going to go work at Microsoft a bunch of hard emojis went viral on x/ Twitter and people started speculating that the team had reached artificial general intelligence the world was going to end and suddenly a couple days later he was back to being the CEO of open AI in February Sam was reportedly looking to raise $7 trillion
do for an AI chip project this after was reported that Sam was looking to raise a billion from masi yoshian to create an iPhone killer with Johnny I the co-creator of the iPhone all of this while chat GPT has become better and better and a household name is having a massive impact on how we work and how work is getting done and it's reportedly the fastest product to hit 100 million
users in history in just two months and check out opening eyes insane Revenue ramp up they reportedly hit two billion in ARR last year welcome to the all-in podcast Sam mman thank you thank you guys Sak you want to Le us off here okay sure I mean I I think the whole industry is waiting with baited breath for the release of GPT 5 I guess it's been reported that it's launching sometime
this summer but that's a pretty big window can you narrow that down I guess where where are you in the release of GPT 5 uh we we take our time on releases of major new models and I don't think we uh I think it will be great uh when we do it and I think we'll be thoughtful about how we do it uh like we may release it in a different way than we've released previous BS models um also I
don't even know if we'll call it gbt 5 um what I what I will say is you know a lot of people have noticed how much better gbd4 has gotten um since we've released it and particularly over the last few months I think I think that's like a better hint of what the world looks like where it's not the like 1 two 3 4 5 six seven but you you just you use an AI system and the whole system just gets better and
better fairly continous ly um I think that's like both a better technological Direction I think that's like easier for society to adapt to um but but I assume that's where we'll head does that mean that there's not going to be long training cycles and it's continuously retraining or training submodels Sam and maybe you could just speak to us about what might change architecturally going forward with
respect to large models well I mean one one one thing that you could imagine is this just that you keep training right a model uh that that would seem like a reasonable thing to me do you think you talked about releasing it differently this time are you thinking maybe releasing it to the paid users first or you know a slower roll out to get the red teams tight since now there's so much at stake you
have so many customers actually paying and you've got everybody watching everything you do you know is it is it moreful now yeah still only available to the paid user users but one of the things that we really want to do is figure out how to make more advanced technology available to free users too I think that's a super important part of our mission uh and and this idea that we
build AI tools and make them super widely available free or you know not that expensive whatever it is so that people can use them to go kind of invent the future rather than the magic AGI and the sky inventing the future and showing it down upon us uh that seems like a much better path it seems like more spiring path I also think it's where things are actually heading so it makes me sad that
we have not figured out how to make gp4 level technology available to free users it's something we really want to do it's just very expensive I take it's very expensive yeah chamal your thoughts I think maybe the the two big vectors Sam that people always talk about is that underlying cost and sort of the latency that's kind of rate limited a killer app and
then I think the second is sort of the long-term ability for people to build in an open source World versus a closed Source world and I think the crazy thing about this space is that the open source Community is rabid so one example that I think is incredible is you know we had these guys do a pretty crazy demo for Devon remember like even like five or six weeks ago that looked incredible and
then some kid just published it under an open MIT license like open Devon and it's incredibly good and almost as good as that other thing that was closed source so maybe we can just start with that which is tell me about the business decision to keep these models close source and where do you see things going in the next couple years so on the first part of your question um speed and cost those are
hugely important to us and I don't want to like give a timeline on when we can bring them down a lot cuz research is hard but I am confident we'll be able to um we want to like cut the latency super dramatically we want to cut the cost really really dramatically um and I believe that will happen we're still so early in the development of the science and understanding how this works plus we
have all the engineering Tailwinds so I I don't know like when we get to intelligence too cheap to meter and so fast that it feels instantaneous to us and everything else but I do believe we can get there for you know a pretty high level of intelligence and um I it's important to us it's clearly important to users and it'll unlock a lot of stuff on the sort of Open Source close Source
thing I think there's great roles for both I think um you know we've open sourced some stuff we'll open source more stuff in the future but really like our mission is to build towards AGI and to figure out how to broadly distribute its benefits we have a strategy for that seems to be resonating with a lot of people it obviously isn't for everyone and there's like a big ecosystem and
there will also be open source models and people who build that way um one area that I'm particularly interested personally in open source for is I want an open source model that is as good as it can be that runs on my phone and that I think is going to you know the world doesn't quite have the technology for for a good version of that yet but that seems like a really important thing to
go do at some point will you do will you do that will you release I don't know if we will or someone will but someone llama 3 llama 3 running on a phone well I guess maybe there's like a seven billion version yeah yeah uh I don't know if that's if that will fit on a phone or not but that should be fitable on a phone but I don't I I'm not I'm not sure if that one is like I haven't
played with it I don't know if it's like good enough to kind of do the thing I'm thinking about here so when when llama 3 got released I think the big takeaway for a lot of people was oh wow they've like caught up to GPT 4 I don't think it's equal in all Dimensions but it's like pretty pretty close or pretty in the ballpark I guess the question is you know you guys released four a while ago
you're working on five or you know more upgrades to four I mean I think to Chamas point about Devin how do you stay ahead of Open Source I mean it's just that's like a very hard thing to do in general right I mean how do you think about that what we're trying to do is not make the sort of smartest set of Weights that we can can but what we're trying to make is like this useful intelligence layer for
people to use and a model is part of that I think we will stay pretty far ahead of I hope we'll stay pretty far ahead of the rest of the world on that um but there's a lot of other work around the whole system that's not just that you know the the model Waits and we'll have to build up enduring value the oldfashioned way like any other business does will have to figure out a
great product and reasons to stick with it and uh you know delivered at a great price when you founded the organization you the stated goal or part of what you discussed was hey this is too important for any one company to own it so therefore it needs to be open then there was the switch hey it's too dangerous for anybody to be able to see it and we need to lock this down because you you
had some fear about that I think is that accurate because the cynical side is like well this is a capitalistic move and then the I think you know I'm I'm curious what the decision was here in terms of going from open we the world needs to see this it's really important to closed only we can see it well how did you come to that that conclusion what were the disc part of the reason that we released chat GPT
was we want the world to see this and we've been trying to tell people that AI is really important and if you go back to like uh October of 2022 not that many people thought AI was going to be that important or that it was really happening um and a huge part of what we we try to do is put the technology in the hands of people uh now again there's different ways to do that and I think there really
is an important role to just say like here's the weights have at it but the fact that we have so many people using a free version of chat GPT that we don't you know we don't run ads on we don't try to like make money on we just put out there because we want people to have these tools um I think it's done a lot to provide a lot of value and you know teach people how to fish but also to get
the world um really thoughtful about what's happening here now we still don't have all the answers and uh we're fumbling our way through this like everybody else and I assume we'll change strategy many more times as we learn new things you know when we started open AI we had really no idea about how things were going to go um that we'd make a language model that we'd ever make a
product we started off just I remember very clearly that first day where we're like well now we're all here that was you know it was difficult to get this set up but what happens now maybe we should write some papers maybe we should stand around a whiteboard and we've just been trying to like put one foot in front of the other and figure out what's next and what's next and what's next
and I think we'll keep doing that can I just replay something and just make sure I heard it right I think what you were saying on the open source close Source thing is if I heard it right all these models independent of the business decision you make are going to become asymptotically accurate towards some amount of accuracy like not all but like let's just say there's four or five that
are well capitalized enough you guys meta Google Microsoft whomever right so let's just say four or five maybe one startup and on the open web and then quickly the accuracy or the value of these models will probably shift to these proprietary sources of training data that you could get that others can't or others can get that you can't is that how you see this thing evolving
where the open web gets everybody to a certain threshold and then it's just an arms race for data beyond that doesn't so I definitely don't think it'll be an arms race for data because when the models get smart enough at some point it shouldn't be about more data at least not for training it may matter data to make it useful um look the the one thing that I have learned most throughout all
this is that uh it's hard to make confidence statements a couple of years in the future about where this is all going to go and so I don't want to try now I I will say that I I expect lots of very capable models in the world and you know like it feels to me like we just like stumbled on a new fact of nature or science or whatever you want to call it which is like we can create you can like
I mean I don't believe this literally but it's like a spiritual point you know intelligence is just this emergent property of matter and that's like a that's like a rule of physics or something um so people are going to figure that out but there will be all these different ways to design the systems people will make different Cho choices figure out new ideas and I'm sure like you
know like any other industry I would expect there to be multiple approaches and different people like different ones you know some people like iPhones some people like an Android phone I think there'll be some effect like that let's go back to that first section of just the the cost and the speed all of you guys are sort of a little bit rate limited on literally nvidia's throughput right and I think
that you and most everybody else have sort of effectively announced how much capacity you can get just because it's as much as they can spin out what needs to happen at the substrate so that you can actually compute cheaper compute faster get access to more energy how are you helping to frame out the industry solving those problems well we we'll make huge algorithmic gains for sure and
I don't want to Discount that I you know I very interested in chips and energy but if we can make our if we can make a same quality model twice as efficient that's like we had twice as much compute right and I think there's a gigantic amount of work to be done there uh and I hope we'll start really seeing those results um other than that the whole supply chain is like very complicated
you know there's there's logic Fab capacity there's how much hbm the world can make there's how quickly you can like get permits and pour the concrete make the data centers and then have people in there wiring them all up there's finding the energy which is a huge bottleneck but uh I think when there's this much value to people uh the world will do its thing we'll try to help it happen faster um
and there's probably like I don't know how to give it a number but there's like some percentage chance where there is as you were saying like a huge substrate breakthrough and we have like a massively more efficient way to do Computing but I don't I don't like Bank on that or spend too much time thinking about it what about the device side and sort of you mentioned sort of the models
that can fit on a phone so obviously whether that's an llm or some slm or something I'm sure you're thinking about that but then does the device itself change I mean is it does it need to be as expensive as an iPhone uh I'm super interested in this uh I I love like great new form factors of computing and it feels like with every major technological Advance a new thing becomes possible
uh phones are unbelievably good so I think the threshold is like very high here like what like I think I think like I personally think an iPhone is like the greatest piece of technology Humanity has ever made it's really a wonderful product what comes after it like I don't know I mean I was gonna that was what I was saying it's so good that to get Beyond it I think the bar is like quite
High well you've been you've been working with Johnny IV on on something right we've been discussing ideas but uh I don't like if I knew is it that that it has to be more complicated or actually just much much cheaper and simpler well every Mo almost everyone's willing to pay for a phone anyway so if you could like make a way cheaper device I think the barrier to carry a second
thing or use a second thing is pretty high so I don't think C given that we're all willing to pay for phones or most of us are I don't think cheaper is the answer different is the answer then would there be like a specialized chip that would run the phone that was really good at powering a you know a phone size AI model probably but the phone manufacturers are going to do that for sure that doesn't that doesn't
necessitate a new device I think you'd have to like find some really different interaction Paradigm that the technology enables uh and if I knew what it was I would be excited to be working on it right now but well you have you have voice working right now in the app in fact I set my action button on my phone to go directly to chat gpt's voice app and I use it with my kids and they love
it talking to it's got latency issues but it's really we'll get we'll we'll get that we'll get that better and I think voice is a hint to whatever the next thing is like if you can get voice interaction to be really good it feels I think that feels like a different way to use a computer but again with that by the way like what why is it not responsive and you know it feels like a CB you know like over over
it's really annoying to use you know uh in that way but it's also brilliant when it gives you the right answer we are working on that uh it's it's so clunky right now it's slow it's like kind of doesn't feel very smooth or authentic or organic like we'll get all that to be much better what about computer vision I mean they have glasses or maybe you could wear a pendant I mean you take the
combination of visual or video data combine it with voice and now ai knows everything that's happening around you super powerful to be able to like the multimodality of saying like hey cha gbt what am I looking at or like what kind of plant is this I can't quite tell um that's obvious that that's like a that's another I think like hint but whether people want to wear glasses or
like hold up something when they want that like I there's a bunch of just like like the the sort of like societal interpersonal issues here are all very complicated about wearing a computer on your face um we we saw that with Google class people got punched in the face in the mission started a lot of I forgot about that I forgot about that so so I I think it's like what are the apps that could be
unlocked if AI was sort of ubiquitous on people's phones do you have a sense of that or what would you want to see built uh I I think what I want is just this always on like super low friction thing where I can either by voice or by text or ideally like some other it just kind of knows what I want have this like constant thing helping me throughout my day that's got like as much context on
as possible it's like the world's greatest assistant um and it's just this like thing working to make me better and better uh there's there there's like a I know when you hear people like talk about the AI future they're imag they imagine there's sort of two different approaches and don't sound that different but I think they're like very different for how we'll design the
system in practice there's the I want an extension of myself um I want like a ghost or an alter ego or this thing that really like is me is acting on my behalf is um responding to emails not even telling me about it is is is sort of like it it becomes more me and is me and then there's this other thing which is like I want a great senior employee it may get to know me very well I may
delegate it you know you can like have access to my email and I'll tell you the constraints but but I think of it as this like separate entity and I personally like the separate entity approach better and think that's where we're going to head um and so in that sense the thing is not you but it's it's like a always available always great super capable assistant executive agent in a way like gets out there working on
your behalf and understands what you want and anticipates what you want is what I'm reading into what you're saying I think there'd be agent like Behavior but there's like a difference between a senior employee and an agent yeah and like I want it you know I think of like my I think like of it like one of the things that I like about a senior employee is they'll they'll push back on me they
will sometimes not do something I ask or they sometimes will say like I can do that thing if you want but if I do it here's what I think would happen and then this and then that and are you really sure I definitely want that kind of vibe which not not just like this thing that I asking it blindly does it can reason yeah yeah and push back it can reason it has like the kind of relationship with
me that I would expect out of a really competent person that I worked with which is different from like a sycophant yeah the thing in that world where if you had this like Jarvis like thing that can reason what do you think it does to products that you use today where the interface is very valuable so for example if you look at an instacart or if you look at an Uber or if you look at
a door Dash these are not services that are meant to be pipes that are just providing a set of apis to a Smart Set of agents that ubiquitously work on behalf of 8 billion people what do you think has to change in how we think about how apps need to work of how this entire infrastructure of experiences need to work in a world where you're agentically interfacing to
the world you I'm actually very interested in designing a world that is equally usable by humans and by AIS so I I I I I like the interpretability of that I like the smoothness of the handoffs I like the ability that we can provide feedback or whatever so you know door Dash could just expose some a pi to my future AI assistant and they could go put the order and whatever or I could
say like I could be holding my phone and I could say okay AI assistant like you put in this order on door Dash please and I could like watch the app open and see the thing clicking around and I could say hey no not this or like um there there's something about designing a world that is usable equally well by humans and AIS that I think is a interesting concept excited humanoid robots than sort of
robots of like very other shapes the world is very much designed for humans and I think we should absolutely keep it that way and a shared interface is nice so you see voice chat that modality kind of gets rid of apps you just ask it for sushi it knows Sushi you like before it knows what you don't like and does its best shot at doing it I it's hard for me to imagine that we just go to a world
totally where you say like hey Chachi BT order me sushi and it says okay do you want it from this restaurant what kind what time whatever I think user I think visual user interfaces are super good for a lot of things um and it's hard of me to imagine like a world where youd never look at a screen and just use voice mode only but I I can't imagine that for a lot of things yeah I
mean Apple tried with Siri like you supposedly you can order an Uber automatically with Siri I don't think anybody's ever done it because it's why would you take the risk of not the quality to your point the quality is not good but when the quality is good enough you're you'll actually prefer it just because it's just lighter weight you don't have to take your phone out you don't have to search for your app and
press it and oh it automatically logged you out oh hold on log back in oh TFA it's a whole pain in the ass you know it's like setting a timer with Siri I do every time because it works really well and it's great and I don't need more information but ordering an Uber like I want to see the prices for a few different options I want to see how far away it is I want to see like maybe even
where they are on the map because I might walk somewhere I get a lot more information by I think in less time by looking at that order the Uber screen than I would if I had to do that all through the audio Channel I like your idea of watching it happen that's kind of cool I think there will just be like yeah different there are different interfaces we use for different tasks and I think
that'll keep going of all the developers that are building apps and experiences on open AI are there few that stand out for you where you're like okay this is directionally going in a super interesting area even if it's like a toy app but are there things that you guys point to and say this is really important um I met with a new company this morning or and bar even a company
it's like two people that are going to work on a summer project trying to actually finally make the AI tutor like and I've always been interested in this space a lot of people have done great stuff on our platform but if if someone can deliver like the way that you actually like H they used a phrase I love which is this is going to be like a monor level reinvention for how people how
people learn things yeah um but if you can like find this new way to like let people explore and learn and new ways on their own I'm personally super excited about that um a lot of the coding related stuff you mentioned Devon earlier I think that's like a super cool vision of the future the thing that I am Health Healthcare I I believe should be pretty transformed by this but the thing I'm personally most excited
about is the sort of doing faster and better scientific discovery gp4 clearly not there in a big way although maybe it accelerates things a little bit by making scientists more productive but Alpha 43 yeah that's like but Sam that will be a Triumph those are not like these these models are train Tred and built differently than the language models I mean to some obviously
there's a lot that's similar but there's a lot um there's kind of a groundup architecture to a lot of these models that are being applied to these specific problem sets these specific applications like chemistry interaction modeling for example does you you'll need some of that for sure but the the thing that I think we're missing across the board for many of these things we've been talking
about is models that can do reason and once you have reasoning you can connect it to chemistry simulators or guess yeah that's the important question I wanted to kind of talk about today was this idea of networks of models people talk a lot about agents as if there's kind of this linear set of call functions that happen but one of the things that arises in biology is networks of systems
that have cross interactions that the aggregation of the system the aggregation of the network produces an output rather than one thing calling another that thing calling another do we see like an emergence in this architecture of either specialized models or network models that work together to address bigger problem sets use reasoning there's computational models that do things like chemistry or
arithmetic and there's other models that do rather than one model to rule them all that's purely generalized I don't know um I don't know how much reasoning is going to turn out to be a super generalizable thing I suspect it will but that's more just like an intuition and a hope and it would be nice if it worked out that way I I don't know if that's like but let's walk through the the
protein modeling example there's a bunch of training data images of proteins and then sequence data and they build a model predictive model and they have a set of processes and steps for doing that do you envision that there's this artificial general intelligence or this great reasoning model that then figures out how to build that submodel that figures out how to solve that problem by acquiring the
necessary data and then resolving there so many ways where that could go like maybe it is it trains a literal model for it or maybe it just like knows the one big model what it can like go pick what other training data it needs and ask a question and then update on that um I guess the real question is are all these startups going to die because so many startups are working in that
modality which is go get special data and then train a new model on that special data from the ground up and then it only does that one sort of thing and it works really well at that one thing and it works better than anything else at that one thing you know there there's like a version of this I think you can like already see when you were when you were talking about like biology and
these complicated networks of systems the reason I was smiling I I got super sick recently and I'm mostly better now but it was just like body like got beat up like one system at a time F like you can really tell like okay it's this cating thing and uh and that reminded me of you like talking about the like biology is just these like you have no idea how much these systems interact
with each other until things start going wrong and that was sort of like interesting to see but I was using um I was like using chat GPT uh to try to like figure out like what was happening whatever and and and would say well I'm you know unsure of this one thing and then I just like posted a paper on it without even reading the paper um like in the context and it says oh that was the thing I was unsure of
like now I think this instead so there's like a that was like a small version of what you're talking about where you can like can say this I don't I don't know this thing you can put more information you don't retrain the model you're just adding it to the context here and now you're getting a so these models that are predicting protein structure like let's say right this is the whole basis
and now now other molecules at Alpha 3 can they can yeah I mean is it basically a world where the best generalized model goes in and gets that training data and then figures out on its own and maybe you could maybe you could use an example for us can you tell us about Sora your video model that generates amazing moving images moving video and and what's different about the
architecture there whatever you're willing to share on how how that is different yeah so my on the general thing first my you clearly will need specialized simulators connectors pieces of data whatever but my intuition and again I don't have this like backed up with science my intuition would be if we can figure out the core of generalized reasoning connecting that to new problem domains in the same way
that humans are generalized reason ERS would I think be be doable it's like a fast unlock faster unlock than I think I I think so um but yeah you Sora like does not start with a language model um it's that that's a model that is like customized to do video uh and and so like we're clearly not at that world yet right so you guys so just as an example for you guys to build a good
video model you built it from scratch using I'm assuming some different architecture and different data but in the future the generalized reasoning system the the AGI whatever system theoretically could render that by figuring out how to do it yeah I mean one example of this is like okay you know as far as I know all the best text models in the world are still a lot of regressive models and the best image and
video models are diffusion models and that's like sort strange in some sense yeah yeah so there's a big debate about uh training data you guys have been I think the most thoughtful of any company you've got licensing deals now ft Etc and we got to gu be gentle here because you're involved in a New York Times lawsuit you weren't able to settle I guess an arrangement with them for
training data how do you think about fairness in fair use we've had big debates here on the pod obviously your actions are you know speak volumes that you're trying to be fair by doing licensing deals so what what's your personal position on the rights of artists who create beautiful music lyrics books and you taking that and then making a derivative product out of it and and then monetizing it and and
what's fair here and how do we get to a world where you know artists can make content in the world and then decide what they want other people to do with it yeah and and I'm just curious your personal belief because I know you to be a thoughtful person on this and I know a lot of other people in our industry are not very thoughtful about how they think about content
creators so I think it's very different for different kinds of I mean look on unfair use I think we have a a very reasonable position under the current law but I think AI is so different that for things like art we'll need to think about them in different ways but I would say if you go read a bunch of math on the internet and learn how to do math that I think seems unobjectionable to
most people and then there's like you know another set of people who might have a different opinion well what if you like actually let me not get into that just in the interest of not making this answer too long so I think there's like one category people are like okay there's like generalized human knowledge you can kind of like go if you learn that like that's that that's like open domain or
something if you kind of go learn about the Pythagorean theorem um that's one end of the spectrum and then I think the other extreme end of the spectrum is um is Art and maybe even like more than more specifically I would say it's like doing it's a system generating art in the style or the likeness of another artist um would be kind of the furthest end of that and then there's many many cases on
the Spectrum in between uh I think the conversation has been historically very caught up on training data but it will increasingly become more about what happens at inference time as training data becomes less valuable and the what the system does accessing you know information in in context in real time or uh you know know taking like like something like that what happens at
inference time will become more debated and and how the what the new economic model is there so if you say like uh if you say like create me a song in this in the style of Taylor Swift even if the model were never trained on any Taylor Swift songs at all you can still have a problem which is it may have read about Taylor Swift it may know about her themes Taylor Swift means
something and then and then the question is like that model even if it were never trained on any Taylor Swift song whatsoever be allowed to do that and if so um how should Taylor get paid right so I think there's an optin opt out in that case first of all and then there's an economic model um staying on the music example there is something interesting to look at from the historical perspective here which is uh
sampling and how the economics around that work this is not quite the same thing but it's like an interesting place to start looking Sam let me just challenge that what's the difference in the example you're giving of the model learning about things like song structure Tempo Melody Harmony relationships all the discovering all the underlying structure that makes music successful and then building new
music using training data and what a human does that listens to lots of music learns about and and their brain is processing and building all those same sort of predictive models or those same sort of uh discoveries understandings what's the difference here and why why are you making the case that perhaps artists should be uniquely paid this is not a sampling situation you're not the
AI is not outputting and it's not storing in the model the actual original song it's learning structure right I wasn't trying to make that that point because I agree like in the same way that humans are inspired by other humans I was saying if you if you say generate me a song in the style of Taylor Swift I see right okay where the prompt leverages some artist I I think
personally that's a different case would you be comfortable asking or would you be comfortable letting the model train itself well a music model being trained on the whole Corpus of music that humans have created without royalties being paid to the artists that um that music is being fed in and then you're not allowed to ask you know artists specific prompts you could just say hey pay me a
play me a a really cool pop song that's fairly modern about heartbreak you know with a female voice you know we have currently made the decision not to do music and partly because exactly these questions of where you draw the lines and you know what like even I was meeting with several musicians I really admire recently I was just trying to like talk about some of these edge cases but even the world in
which if we went and let's say we paid 10,000 musicians to create a bunch of music just to make a great training set where the music music model could learn everything about strong s structure um and what makes a good catchy beat and everything else um and only trained on that let's say we could still make a great music model which maybe maybe we could um you know I was kind of like
posing that as a thought experiment to musicians and they're like well I can't object to that on any principal basis at that point um and yet there's still something I don't like about it now that's not a reason not to do it um necessarily but it is did you see that ad that Apple put out maybe it was yesterday or something of like squishing all of human creativity down into one really thin iPad what was
your take on it uh people got really emotional about it yeah it's stronger reaction than you would think yeah there's something about I'm obviously hugely positive on AI but there is something that I think is beautiful about human creativity and human artistic expression and and you know for an AI that just does better science like great bring that on but an AI that is going to do this like deeply
beautiful human creative expression I think we should like figure out it's going to happen it's going to be a tool that will lead us to Greater creative Heights but I think we should figure out how to do it in a way that like preserves the spirit of what we all care about here and I I think your actions speak loudly we were trying to do Star Wars characters in dolly and if you ask for Darth Vader it says
hey we can't do that so you've I guess red teed or whatever you call it internally yeah you're not allowing people to use other people's IP so you've taken that decision now if you asked it to make a Jedi Bulldog or a Sith Lord Bulldog which I did it made my Bulldogs a Sith bulldogs so there's an interesting question about your spectrum right yeah you know we put out this
thing yesterday called the spec um where we're trying to say here are here's here's how our model is supposed to behave and it's very hard it's a long document it's very hard to like specify exactly in each case where the limit should be and I view this as like a discussion that's going to need a lot more input um but but these sorts of questions about okay maybe it shouldn't generate
Darth Vader but the idea of a Sith Lord or a Sith style thing or Jedi at this point is like part of the culture like like these are these are all hard decisions yeah and and I think you're right the music industry is going to consider this opportunity to make tlor Swift songs their opportunity it's part of the four-part fair use test is you know these who gets to capitalize on new
Innovations for existing art and and Disney has an argument that hey you know if if you're GNA make Sora versions of a aoka or whatever Obi-Wan Kenobi that's Disney's opportunity and that's a great partnership for you you know to pursue so we're I think this section I would label as AI in the law so let me ask maybe a higher level question what does it mean when people say regulate AI totally Sam what does it
what does that even mean and comment on California's new proposed regulations as well a few if you're up for it uh I'm concerned I mean there's so many proposed regulations but most of the ones I've seen on the California state things I'm concerned about I also have a general fear of the states all doing this them themselves um when people say regulate AI I don't think they mean one
thing I think there's like some people are like B the whole thing some people like don't allow it to be open source required to be open source um the thing that I am personally most interested in is I think there will come look I may be wrong about this I will acknowledge that this is a forward-looking statement and those are always dangerous to make but I think there will come a time in the not super
distant future like you know we're not talking like decades and decades from now where AI say the frontier AI systems are capable of causing significant Global harm and for those kinds of systems in the same way we have like Global oversight of nuclear weapons or synthetic bio or things that can really like have a very negative impact Way Beyond the realm of one country uh I
would like to see some sort of international agency that is looking at the most powerful systems and ensuring like reasonable safety testing you know these things things are not going to escape and recursively self-improve or whatever the criticism of this is that you're you have the resources to Cozy up to Lobby to be involved and you've been very involved with politicians and then
startups which are also passionate about and invest in um are not going to have the ability to Resource uh and deal with this and that this regulatory capture as per our friend you know Bill Gurley did a great talk last year about it so maybe you could address that headon do do you if the line were we're only going to look at models that are trained on computers that cost more than 10 billion
or more than 100 billion or whatever dollars I'd be fine with that there'd be some line that'd be fine and uh I don't think that puts any regulatory burden on startups so if you have like the the nuclear raw material to make a nuclear bomb like there's a small subset set of people who have that therefore you use the analogy of like a a nuclear inspectors kind of situation yeah I
think that that's interesting sax you have a question well go ahead you had to follow can I say one more thing about that of course I'd be super nervous about regulatory overreach here I think we can get this wrong by doing way too much I or even a little too much I think we can get this wrong by doing not enough but but I do think part of and I and now I mean you know we have seen
regulatory overstepping or capture just get super bad in other areas um and you know like also maybe nothing will happen but but I think it is part of our duty and our mission to like talk about what we believe is likely to happen and what it takes to get that right the challenge Sam is that we have statute that is meant to protect people protects Society at large what we're creating however a
statute that gives the government rights to go in and audit code to audit business um trade Secrets uh we've never seen that to this degree before basically the California legislation that's proposed and some of the federal legislation that's been proposed basically requires the fed the government to audit a model to audit software to audit and review the parameters and the weightings of the
model and then you need their check mark in order to deploy it for commercial or public use and for me it just feels like we're trying to reigning the the the government agencies for fear and and because folks have a hard time understanding this and are scared about the implications of it they want to control it and because they want and the only way to control it is to say give me a right to audit before you can
release it asess these people cluel I mean the way that the the stuff is written you read it you're like G to pull your hair out because as you know better than anyone in 12 months none of this stuff's going to make sense anyway totally right look the reason I have pushed for an agency based approach for for for kind of like the big picture stuff and not a like write it in laws I
don't in 12 months it will all be written wrong and I don't think even if these people were like True World experts I don't think they could get it right looking at 12 or 24 months um and I don't these policies which is like we're going to look at you know we're going to audit all of your source code and like look at all of your weights one by one like yeah I think there's a lot
of crazy proposals out there um by the way especially if the models are always retrained all the time if they become more Dynamic again this is why I think it's yeah but but like when before an airplane gets certified there's like a set of safety tests we put the airplane through it um and totally it's different than reading all of your code that's reviewing the output of the model not
reviewing the insides of the model and and so what I was goingon to say is I that is the kind of thing that I think as safety testing makes sense how are we going to get that to happen Sam and I'm not just speaking for open AI I speak for the industry for for Humanity because I am concerned that we draw ourselves into almost like a dark ages type of era by restricting the growth of
these incredible technologies that can prosper human that that Humanity can prosper from so significantly how do we change the the sentiment and get that to happen because this is all moving so quickly at the government levels and folks seem to be getting it wrong and I'm I'm just to build on that Sam the architectural decision for example that llama took is pretty interesting in that
it's like we're going to let llama grow and be as unfettered as possible and we have this other kind of thing that we call Llama guard that's meant to be these protective guard rails is that how you see the problem being solved correctly or do you see at the current at the current strength of models definitely some things are going to go wrong and I don't want to like make light of those or not take those
seriously but I'm not like I don't have any like catastrophic risk worries with a gp4 level model um and I think there's many safe ways to choose to deploy this uh may maybe we'd find more common ground if we said that uh and I like you know the specific example of models that are capable that are technically capable not even if they're not going to be used this way of recursive
self-improvement um or of you know autonomously designing and deploying a bioweapon or something like that or a new model that was the recursive self-improvement Point um you know we should have safety testing on the outputs at an international level for models that you know have a reasonable chance of of posing a threat there uh I don't think like GPT 4 of course does not POS any sort of well I want to say
any sort cuz we don't yeah I don't think the gp4 poses a material threat on those kinds of things and I think there's many safe ways to release a model like this um but you know when like significant loss of human life is a serious possibility like airplanes or any number of other examples where I think we're happy to have some sort of testing framework like I don't think
about an airplane when I get on it I just assume it's going to be safe right right there's a lot of hand ringing right now Sam about jobs and you had a lot of I think you did like some sort of a test when you were at YC about Ubi and you've been result in that come out very soon I just it was a fiveyear study that wrapped up um or started five years ago well there
was like a beta study first and then it was like a long one that ran but uhk can you explain yeah why did you start why' you start it maybe just explain Ubi and why you started it um so we started thinking about this in 2016 uh kind of about the same time started taking AI really seriously and the theory was that the magnitude of the change that may come to society and jobs in the economy and and sort of
in some deeper sense than that like what the social contract looks like um meant that we should have many studies to study many ideas about new new ways to arrange that um I also think that you know I'm not like a super fan of how the government has handled most policies designed to help poor people and I kind of believe that if you could just give people money they would make good
decisions and the market would do its thing and you know I'm very much in favor of lifting up the floor and reducing eliminating poverty um but I'm interested in better ways to do that than what we have tried for the existing social safety net and and kind of the way things have been handled and I think people money is not going to go solve all problems it's certainly not going to make people happy but it
might it might solve some problems and it might give people a better Horizon with which to help themselves and I'm interested in that I I think that now that we see some of the ways so 2016 was a very long time ago uh you know now that we see some of the ways that AI is developing I wonder if there's better things to do than the [Music] traditional um conceptualization of Ubi uh like I
wonder I wonder if the future looks something like more like Universal basic compute than Universal basic income and everybody gets like a slice of gpt7 compute and they can use it they can resell it they can donate it to somebody to use for cancer research but but what you get is not dollars but this like productivity slice yeah you own like part of the productivity right I would
like to shift to the gossip part of this gossip what gossip let's go back let's go back to November what the flying happened um you know I I if you have specific questions I'm happy to maybe I'll answer maybe you said you were going to talk about it at some point so here's the point what the hell happened you were fired you came back it was a palace Intrigue did somebody stab you in
the back did you find AGI what's going on tell us this is a safe face Sam um I was fired I was I talked about coming back I kind of was a little bit unsure at the moment about what I wanted to do because I was very upset um and I realized that I really loved open Ai and the people and that I would come back and I kind of I knew it was going to be hard it was even harder than I thought but I I kind of
was like all right fine um I agreed to come back um the board like took a while to figure things out and then uh you know we were kind of like trying to keep the team together and keep doing things for our customers and uh you know sort of started making other plans then the board decided to hire a different interim CEO um and then everybody there many people oh my gosh what was what was that guy's name he was
there for like a scaramucci right like uh em great and I I have nothing but good scari um and then where were you when they um when you found the news that you'd been fired like taking I was in a hotel room in Vegas for F1 weekend I think text and they're like fire pick up said I think that's happened to you before J I'm trying to think if I ever got fired I don't think I've gotten
fired um yeah I got no it's just a weird thing like it's a text from who actually no I got a text the night before and then I got in a phone call with the uh and then that was that and then I kind of like I mean then everything went crazy I was like uh it was like I mean I have my phone was like unusable it was just a Non-Stop vibrating thing of like text messages
call basically you got fired by tweet that happened a few times during the Trump Administration a few uh C TW before tweeting was nice of them um and then like you know I kind of did like a few hours of just this like absolute State um in the hotel room trying to like I was just confused beyond belief trying to figure out what to do and uh so weird and then like flew home it maybe like got on a
plane like I don't know 3 p.m. or something like that um still just like you know crazy non-stop phone blowing up uh met up with some people in person by that evening I was like okay you know I'll just like go do AGI research and was feeling pretty happy about the future and yeah you have options and then and then the next morning uh had this call with a couple of board members
about coming back and that led to a few more days of craziness and then uh and then it kind of I think it got resolved well it was like a lot of insanity in between what percent what percent of it was because of these nonprofit board members um well we only have a nonprofit board so it was all the nonprofit board members uh there the board had gotten down to six people um they and then they removed Greg from the
board and then fired me um so but it was like you know but I mean like was there a culture clash between the people on the board who had only nonprofit experience versus the people who had startup experience and maybe you can share a little bit about if you're willing to the motivation behind the action anything you can I think there's always been culture clashes at look
obviously not all of those board members are my favorite people in the world but I have serious respect for the gravity with which they treat AGI and the importance of getting AI safety right and even if I stringently disagree with their decision- making and actions which I do um I have never once doubted their integrity or commitment to um the sort of shared mission of safe and beneficial
AGI um you know do I think they like made good decisions in the process of that or kind of know how to balance all of things opening I has to get right no but but I think that like the intent the intent of the magnitude of yeah AGI and getting that right I actually let me ask you about that so the mission of open AI is explicitly to create AGI which I think is really interesting a lot of people would say
that if we create AGI that would be like an unintended consequence of something gone horribly wrong and they're very afraid of that outcome but open a makes that the actual Mission yeah does that create like more fear about what you're doing I mean I understand it can create motivation too but how do you reconcile that I guess why is I think a lot of I think a lot of the
well I mean first I'll say I'll answer the first question and the second one I think it does create a great deal of fear uh I think a lot of the world is understandably very afraid of AGI or very afraid of even current Ai and and very excited about it and even more afraid and even more excited about where it's going um and we we wrestle with that but like I think it is unavoidable that this is going to
happen I also think it's going to be tremendously beneficial but we do have to navigate how to get there in a reasonable way and like a lot of stuff is going to change and change is you know pretty pretty uncomfortable for people so there's a lot of pieces that we got to get right and ask can I ask a different question you you have created I mean it's the hottest company and you
are literally at the center of the center of the center but then it's so unique in the sense that all of this value you issued economically can you just like walk us through like yeah I wish I had taken I wish I had taken Equity so I never had to answer this question if I could go back in why don't they give you a grand now or just give you a big option Grant like you deserve yeah give you five
points what was the decision back then like why was that so important the decision back then the re the original reason was just like the structure of our nonprofit it was uh like there was something about yeah okay this is like nice from a motivations perspective but mostly it was that our board needed to be a majority of disinterested directors and I was like that's fine I
don't need Equity right now I kind of but like but in this weird way now that you're running a company yeah it it creates these weird questions of like well what's your real motivation versus to that's that it is so deeply un I one thing I have noticed it is is so deeply unimaginable to people to say I don't really need more money like and I well people think I think I think people think it's a little
bit of an ulterior motive I think yeah yeah yeah no so it assumes what else is he doing on the side to make money something if I were just trying to say like I'm going to try to make a trillion dollarss with open AI I think everybody would have an easier time and it would save me it would save a lot of conspiracy theories totally this is totally the back Channel you are a great
dealmaker I I've watched your whole career I mean you're just great at it you got all these connections you're really good at raising money uh you're fantastic at it and you got this Johnny I thing going you're inhumane you're investing in company she got the orb raising $7 trillion to build Fabs all this stuff all of that put together J loves fake news I'm kind of being a little fous here you know
obviously it's not you're not raising 7 trillion doll but maybe that's the market cap of something putting all that aside the T was you're doing all these deals they don't trust you because what's your motivation you you your end running and and what opportunities belong inside of open AI what opportuni should be Sam's and this group of nonprofit people didn't trust you is
that what happened so the things like you know device companies or if we were doing some chip Fab Company it's like those are not Sam project those would be like opening ey would get that Equity um they would okay that's not the Public's perception well that's not like kind of the people like you who have to like commentate on the stuff all day perception which is fair because we
haven't announced the stuff because it's not done I don't think most people in the world like are thinking about this but I I I agree it spins up a lot of conspiracies conspiracy theories in like Tech commentators yeah and if I could go back yeah I would just say like let me take equity and make that super clear and then every be like all right like I'd still be doing it because I really
care about AGI and think this is like the most interesting work in the world but it would at least type check to everybody what's the chip project that the S trillion do and where' the Seven trillion number come from makes no sense I don't know where that came from actually I genuinely don't uh I think I think the world needs a lot more AI infrastructure a lot more than it's currently planning to build and with a
different cost structure um the exact way for us to play there is we're still trying to figure that out got it what's your preferred model of organizing open AI is it sort of like the move fast break things highly distributed small teams or is it more of this organized effort where you need to plan because you want to prevent some of these edge cases um oh I have to go in a minute uh it's not
because it's not to prevent the edge cases that we need to be more organized but it is that these systems are so complicated and concentrating bets are so important like one you know at the time before it was like obvious to do this you have like deep mind or whatever has all these different teams doing all these different things and they're spreading their bets out and you had Open the Eyes
say we're going to like basically put the whole company and work together to make gp4 and that was like unimaginable for how to run an AI research lab but it is I think what works at the minimum it's what works for us so not because we're trying to prevent edge cases but because we want to concentrate resources and do these like big hard complicated things we do have a lot of coordination
on what we work on all right Sam I know you got to go you've been great on the hour come back any time great talking to you guys yeah fun thanks for for being so open about it we've been talking about it for like a year plus I'm really happy it finally happened yeah it's awesome I really app come back on after our next like major launch and I'll be able to talk more directly about some
you got the zoom link same Zoom link every week just same time same Zoom link drop time just drop in just put on your calendar come back to the game come back to the game in a while I you know I would love to play poker it has been forever that would be a lot of fun send where Cham when you and I were heads up and you you had remind me you and I were heads up and you went all in I had a set
but there was a straight and a flush on the board and I'm in the tank trying to figure out if I want to lose this back when we playing small Stakes it might have been like 5K pot or something and then chath can't stay out of the pot and he starts taunting the two of us you should call you shouldn't call he's bluffing and I'm like I'm going I'm trying to figure out if I make the call
here I make the call and uh it was like uh you had a really good hand and but I just happened to have a s I think you had like top pair top kicker or something but you you made a great move because the boy was so almost like a bottom set Sam has a great style of playing which I would call RAM and jam totally you got to get I don't really know if you I don't I don't know if you
could say about anybody else I don't I don't I'm not gonna you haven't seen Jam play in the last 18 months it's a lot different much more so much fun now find find hard to have you played bomb pots I don't know what that is okay you'll love it we'll see you is nuts it's do two boards and congrats everything honestly than thanks for coming on and love to have you back when
the next after the big launch sounds please do cool bye gentlemen some breaking news here all those projects He said are part of open AI That's something people didn't know before this and a lot of confusion there chamat what was your major takeaway from our hour with Sam I think that these guys are going to be one of the four major companies okay that matter in this whole space I think that that's clear
I think what's still unclear is where is the economics going to be he said something very discreet but I thought was important which is I think he basically my interpretation is these models will roughly all be the same but there's going to be a lot of scaffolding around these models that actually allow you to build these apps so in many ways that is like the open source movement so
even if the model itself is never open source it doesn't much matter because you have to pay for the infrastructure right there's a lot of open Source software that runs on Amazon you still pay AWS something so I think the right way to think about this now is the models will basically be all really good and then it's all this other stuff that you'll have to pay for interface whoever builds all this other
stuff is going to be in a position to build a really good business freeberg he talked a lot about reasoning it seemed like that he kept going to reasoning and away from the language model did you not did you note that and anything else that you noted in our hour with yeah I mean that's a longer conversation because there is a lot of talk about language models eventually evolving to be so
generalizable that they can resolve pretty much like all intelligent function and so the language model is the foundational model that that yields AGI but that's a I think there's a lot of people that at different schools of thought on this and how much my my other takeaway I think is that the I think what he also seem to indicate is there's like so many like we're also enraptured
by llms but there's so many things other than llms that are being baked and rolled by him and by other groups and I think we have to pay some amount of attention to all those because that's probably where and I think freedberg you tried to go there in your question that's where reasoning will really come from is this mixture of experts approach and so you're going to have to think
multi-dimensionally to reason right we do that right do I cross the street or not in this point in time you reason based on all these multi-inputs and so there's there's all these little systems that go into making that decision in your brain and if you if you use that as a a simple example there's all this stuff that has to go into making some experience being able to reason intelligently sax you went right
there with the corporate structure the board and uh he he he gave us a lot more information here what are your thoughts on the hey you know the chip stuff and the other stuff I'm working that's all part of open AI people just don't realize it and that moment and then you know your questions to him about Equity your thoughts on um I'm not sure I was like the main guy who asked that
question jakal but um well no you did talk about the the nonprofit that the difference between question about the clearly was some sort of culture Clash on the board between the the people who originated from the nonprofit world and people who came from the startup world we don't really know more than that but there clearly was some sort of culture class I thought one of the a couple of the
other areas that he drew attention to that were kind of interesting is he clearly thinks there's a big opportunity on mobile that goes beyond just like having you know a chat gbt app on your phone or maybe even having like a Siri on your phone there's clearly something bigger there he doesn't know exactly what it is but it's going to require more inputs it's that you know personal
assistant that's seeing everything around you help really I think that's a great Insight David because he was talking about hey I'm looking for a senior team member who can push back on me and understands all context I thought that was like a very interesting to think about an executive assistant or an assistant that's has executive function as opposed to being like just an alter
ego for you or what he called a sycophant that's kind of interesting I thought that was interesting yeah yeah and clearly he thinks there's a big opportunity in biology and scientific discovery after the break I think we should talk about Alpha fold 3 it was just announ let's do that and we can talk about the the Apple ad and I just want to also make sure people understand when people come on the Pod
we don't show them questions they don't edit the transcript nothing is out of bounds if you were wondering why I didn't ask or we didn't ask about the Elon lawsuit he's just not going to be able to comment on that so it' be no comment so you know and we're not like our time was limited and there's a lot of questions that we could have asked him that would have just been a waste of
time and com so I just want to make sure people understand of course he's going to no comment in any lawsuit and he's already been asked about that 500 times yes should we take a quick break before the next before we come back yeah I'll take a bio break and then we'll come back with some news for you and some more banter with your favorite besties on the number one podcast in the world the only podcast
all right welcome back everybody second half of the show great guest Sam mman thanks for coming on the Pod we've got a bunch of news on the docket so let's get started freeberg you told me I could give some names of uh the guests that we've booked for the all in Summit I did not you did you've said each week every week that I get to say I did not I appreciate your interest in the all in
Summits lineup but we do not yet have uh enough critical math uh to feel like we should go out there well uh I am a loose canidate so I will announce my two guests and I created The Summit and you took it from me so and done a great job I will announce my guests I don't care what your opinion is I have booked two guests for the summit and it's going to be out look at these two guests I
booked for the third time coming back to the summit our guy Elon Musk will be there hopefully in person if not you know from 40,000 feet on a starling connection wherever he is in the world and for the first time our friend Mark Cuban will be coming and so two great guests for you to look forward to but free BG's got like a thousand guests coming he'll tell you when it's like 48
hours before the conference but yeah two great speaking of billionaires who are coming isn't coming too yes coming yes he's booked so we have three billionaires three billionaires yes okay hasn't fully confirmed so don't okay well we're going to say it anyway has penciled in back we say penciled yeah don't back out this is going to be catnip for all these protest organizers like if
youke the bear well by the way speaking of updates what do you guys think of the bottle for the all-in tequila oh beautiful honestly honestly I will just say I think you are doing a marvelous job that I was shocked at the design shocked meaning it is so unique and high quality I think it's amazing it would make me drink tequila you're going to You're Gonna Want to going to it it is uh stunning
just congratulations and um yeah it was just when we went through the deck at the uh at the monthly meeting it was like oh that's nice oh that's nice we're going to do the concept bottles and then that bottle came up and everybody went like crazy it was like somebody hitting like a Steph Curry hitting a half court shot it was like oh my God it was just so clear that you've made an iconic
bottle that if we can produce it oh Lord it is going to be looks like we can the make it yeah it's gonna be amazing I'm excited I'm excited for it you know it's like the Des so complicated that we have to do a feasibility analysis on whether it was actually manufacturable but it is so or at least the early reports are good so we're going to H hopefully we'll have some a for the in time for the all
Summit I mean why not sounds I mean it's great when we get barricaded in by all these protesters we can drink the tequila did you guys see did you see Peter te Peter teal got barricaded by these ding-dongs at Cambridge my god listen people have the right to protest I think it's great people are protesting but surrounding people and threatening them is a little bit over the top and D
think you're exaggerating what happened well I don't know exactly what happened because all we see is these videos look they're not threatening anybody and I don't even think they tried to barricade him in they were just outside the building and because they were blocking the driveway his car couldn't leave but he wasn't physically like locked in the building or something yeah that's that's
what the headlines say but that could be fake news fake Social yeah this was not on my bingo card this Pro protester support by saaks was not on the bingo card I got to say I contitution the Constitution of the United States in the Amendment provides for the right of assembly which includes protest and sit in as long as they're as long as they're Peaceable now obviously if they go too
far and they vandalize or break into buildings or use violence then that's not Peaceable however expressing sentiments with which you disagree does not make it violent and there's all these people out there now making the argument that if you hear something from a protester that you don't like and you subjectively experience that as a as a threat to your safety then that somehow should be you know treated as valid like
that's basically violent well that's that's not what the Constitution says and these people understood well just a few months ago that that was basically snowf fakery that you know just because somebody you know what I'm saying we have the rise of the woke right now where they're buying yeah the woke right they're buying into this idea of safetyism which is being exposed
ideas you don't like to protest you don't like is a threat to your safety no it's not every we absolutely have snow fakery on both sides now it's ridiculous the only thing I will say that I've seen and is this this this uh surrounding individuals who you don't want there and locking them in a circle and then moving them out of like protesta that's not cool yeah obviously you can't do that
but look I think that most of the protests on most of the campuses have not crossed the line they've just occupied The Lawns of these campuses and look I've seen some troublemakers try to barge through the the encampments and claim that because they can't go through there that somehow they're being prevented from going to class look you just walk around the lawn and you can get to class okay and you know some of
these videos are showing that these are effectively right-wing provocators who are engaging in leftwing tactics and I don't support it either way by the way some of these camps are some of the funniest things you've ever seen it's like there are like a one tent that's dedicated to like a reading room and you go in there and there's like these like Center oh my God it's unbelievably
hilarious look there there's no question that because the protests are originating on the left that there's some goofy views like you know you're dealing with like a leftwing idea complex right but and you know it's easy to make fun of them doing different things but the fact of the matter is that most of the protests on most of these campuses are even though they can
be annoying because they're occupying part of the lawn they're not violent yeah and you know the way they're being cracked down on they're sending the police in at 5:00 a. to crack down on these encampments with batons and riot gear and I find that part to be completely excessive well it's also dangerous because you know things can escalate when you have mobs of people and large groups of people so I just
want to make sure people understand that large group of people large you have a diffusion of responsibility that occurs when there's large groups of people who are passionate about things and and people could get hurt people have gotten killed at these things so just you know keep it calm everybody I agree with you like what's the harm of these folks protesting on a lawn it's not a big deal
when they break into buildings of course yeah that crosses the line obviously yeah but I mean let them sit out there and then they'll run out their food cars their food card and they run out of waffles did you guys see the clip I think it was on the University of Washington campus where one kid challenged this antifa guy to a push-up contest oh fantastic I mean it's it is some of the
funniest stuff some of some content is coming out that's just my favorite was the woman who came out and said that the Columbia students needed humanitarian Aid and oh my God the overdubs on her were hilarious I was like uh humanitarian Aid the he was like we need our door Dash right now we need we Double Dash some boba and we can't get it through the the police need our Boba low sugar Boba with the with the popping
Boba bubbles wasn't getting in but you know people have the right to protest and uh Peaceable by the way there's a word I've never heard very good sax Peaceable inclined to avoid argument or violent conflict very nice well it's in the Constitution it's in the first amendment is it really I've never I haven't heard the word Peaceable before I mean you and I are sympatico on this
like I I don't we used to have the ACLU like backing up the KKK going down Main Street and really fighting decision yeah they were really fighting for I I'm and I have to say the Overton window is opened back up and I think it's great all right we got some things on the docket here I don't know if you guys saw the Apple new iPad ad it's getting a bunch of criticism they use like some
giant hydraulic press to crush a bunch of creative tools EJ turntable trumpet piano people really care about Apple's ads and what they represent we talked about that that uh Mother Earth little vignette they created here what do you think free BR did you see the ad what was your reaction to it made me sad it it did not make me want to buy an iPad so huh did not seem like it made you sad
it actually elicited an emotion meaning like commercials it's very rare that commercials can actually do that most people just Zone up yeah they took all this beautiful stuff and heard it didn't it didn't feel good I don't know it just didn't seem like a good ad I don't know why they did that I don't get it I I've I don't I don't know I think I think maybe what they're trying to do is the
the selling point of this new iPad is that it's the thinnest one I mean there's no innovation left so they're just making the devices yeah you know thinner yeah so I think the idea was that they were going to take this hydraulic press to represent how ridiculously thin the new iPad is now I don't know if the point there was to smush all of that good stuff into the iPad I don't know if that's what they
were trying to convey but yeah I I think that by destroying all those creative tools that apple is supposed to represent it definitely seemed very offbrand for them and I think people were reacting to the fact that it was so um different than what they would have done in the past and of course everyone was saying well Steve would never have done this I do think it did land wrong I
mean I I didn't care that much but but I I was kind of asking the question like why are they destroying all these Creator tools that they're renowned for creating or for turning into the digital version yeah it just didn't land I mean shath how are you doing emotionally after seeing me are you okay buddy yeah I think this is uh you guys see that in the birkshire annual meeting last
weekend Tim Cook was in the audience and Buffett was very laudatory this is an incredible company but he's so clever with words he's like you know this is an incredible business that we will hold forever most likely then it turns out that he sold $20 billion worth of Apple shares in the cat we're gonna hold it forever which which by the way sell if you guys remember we we put that little chart up
which shows when he doesn't mention it in the in the annual letter it's basically like it's foreshadowing the fact that he is just pounding the cell and he sold $20 billion well also holding it forever could mean one share yeah exactly we kind of need to know like how much are we talking about I mean it's an incredible business that has so much money with nothing to do
they're probably just going to buy back the stock just a total waste they were floating this rumor of buying rivan you know after they shut down Titan project the your internal project to make a car it seems like a car is the only thing people can think of that would move the needle in terms of earnings I think the problem is J like you kind of become afraid of your own shadow meaning the
the folks that are really good at m&a like you look at Benny off the thing with benof m& strategy is that he's been doing it for 20 years and so he's cut his teeth on small Acquisitions and the market learns to give him trust so that when he proposes like the $27 billion slack acquisition he's allowed to do that another guy you know narora at pandw these last five years people
were very skeptical that he could actually roll up security because it was a super fragmented Market he's gotten permission then there are companies like Dan that buy hundreds of companies so all these folks are examples of you start small and you you earn the right to do more Apple hasn't bought anything more than 50 or hundred million do and so the idea that all of a sudden they
come out of the blue and buy a 102 billion dollar company I think is just totally doesn't stand logic it's just not possible for them because they'll be so afraid of their own shadow that's the big problem it's themselves well if you're running out of In-House Innovation and you can't do m&a then your options are kind of limited I mean I do think that the fact that the big news out of apple is the iPad's Getting
Thinner does represent kind of the end of the road in terms of innovation it's kind of like when they added the third camera to the iPhone yeah it reminds me of those um remember like when the Gillette yeah they came out and then they did the five was the best onion thing was like we're doing five f it but then Gillette actually came out with the Mach 5 so yeah like the parody
became the reality what are they going to do add two more cameras to the iPhone you have five cameras on it no makes no sense and then I don't know anybody wants to remember the Apple Vision was like gonna plus why are they body shaming the the fat iPads that's a fair point Fair Point actually you know what it's actually this didn't come out yet but it turns out the iPad is on OIC it's actually
dropped a lot that would have been a funnier ad yeah yeah exactly oh oh ohic we can just Workshop that right here but there was another funny one which was making the iPhone smaller and smaller and smaller and the iPod smaller and smaller and smaller to the point it was like you know like a thumb siize iPhone like the Ben Stiller phone in Zoolander or correct yeah that was a great scene is
there a category that you can think of that you would love an Apple product for there's a product in your life that you would love to have Apple's version of it they they killed it I think a lot of people would be very open minded to an Apple car okay they they just would it's it's a connected internet device increasingly so yeah and they they managed to flub it they had a chance to buy Tesla they
managed to flub it yeah right there are just too many examples here where these guys have so much money and not enough ideas that's a shame it's a bummer yeah the one I always wanted to see them do saxs was TV the one I always wanted to see them do was the TV and they were supposedly working on it like the actual TV not the little Apple TV box in the back and like that would have been extraordinary to
actually have a gorgeous you know big television what about a gaming console they could have done that you know there's just all these things that they could have done it's not a lack of imagination because these aren't exactly incredibly World beating ideas they're sitting right in front of your face it's just the will to do it yeah all in one TV would have been good if you think
back on Apple product lineup over the years where they've really created value is on how unique the products are they almost create new categories sure there may have been a quote tablet computer prior to the iPad but the iPad really defined the tablet computer era sure there was a smartphone or two before the iPhone came along but it really defined the smartphone and sure there was a
computer before the Apple 2 and then it came along and it defined the personal computer in all these cases I think Apple strives to define the category so it's very hard to define a television if you think about it or gaming console in a way that you take a step up and you say this is the new thing this is the new platform so I don't know that's the lens I would look at if I'm Apple in
terms of like can I redefine a car can I make you know we're all trying to fit them into an existing product bucket but I think what they've always been so good at is identifying consumer needs and then creating an entirely new way of addressing that need in a real step change function from the like the the the um iPod it was so different from any MP3 player ever I think the reason why
the car could have been completely reimagined by Apple is that they have a level of credibility and trust that I think probably no other company has and absolutely no other tech company has and we talked about this but I think this was the third Steve Job story that that I left out but in 200 I don't know was it [Music] one I launched a 99 cent download store right I think I've told you the story in
winam and Steve Jobs just ran total circles around us but the reason he was able to is he had all the credibility to go to the labels and get deals done for licensing music that nobody could get done before I think that's an example of what Apple's able to do which is to use their political Capital to change the rules so if the thing that we would all want is safer roads and autonomous vehicles
there are regions in every town and city that could be completely converted to level five autonomous zones if I had to pick one company that had the credibility to go and change those rules it's them because they could demonstrate that there was a methodical safe approach to doing something and so the point is that even in these categories that could be totally reimagined it's
not for a lack of imagination again it just goes back to a complete lack of Will and I understand because if they had if you if you had $200 billion do of capital on your balance sheet I think it's probably pretty easy to get fat and lazy yeah it is and and they want to have everything built there people don't remember but they actually built one of the first digital cameras you must have
owned this right freeberg you're I remember this yeah totally it beautiful what did they call it was it the ey camera or something quick take quick take yeah um the thing I would like to see apple build and I'm surprised they didn't was a smart home system the way Apple has Nest a drop cam a door lock you know a AV system go equestron or whatever and just have your whole home
automated thermostat Nest all of that would be brilliant by Apple and right now I'm an apple family that has our all of our home automation through Google so it's just kind of sucks I would I would like that all to that would be pretty amazing like if they did a crant or Savant CU then when you just go to your Apple TV all your cameras just work you don't need to yes that's the that I mean and everybody
has a home and everybody automates their home so well everyone has Apple TV at this point so you just make Apple TV the brain for the home system right that would be your Hub and you can connect your phone to it then yes that would be very nice yeah like can you imagine like the ring cameras all that stuff being integrated I don't know why they didn't go after that that seems like the easy
layup hey you know everybody's been talking freedberg about this uh Alpha fold this folding proteins and there's some new version out from Google and uh also Google reportedly we talked about this before is also advancing talks to acquire HubSpot so that rumor for the $30 billion market cap HubSpot is out there as well free break your as our resident science Sultan uh our resident Sultan of
Science and as an Google alumni pick either story and let's go for it yeah I mean I'm not sure there's much more to add on the HubSpot acquisition rumors they are still just rumors and I think we covered the topic a couple weeks ago but I will say that Alpha fold 3 that was just announced today and demonstrated by Google um is a real uh I would say breathtaking moment
um for biology for bioengineering for human health for medicine and maybe I'll just take 30 seconds to kind of explain it um you remember when they introduced Alpha fold at Alpha fold 2 we talked about DNA codes for proteins so every three letters of DNA codes for an amino acid so a string of DNA codes for a string of amino acids and that's called a gene that produces a
protein and that protein is basically a like think about beads there's 20 different types of beads 20 different amino acids that can be strung together and what happens is that necklace that bead necklace basically collapses on itself and all those little beads stick together with each other in some complicated way that we can't deterministically model and that creates a three-dimensional structure which is
called A protein that molecule and that molecule does something interesting it can break apart other molecules it can bind molecules it can move molecules around so it's basically the Machinery of chemistry of biochemistry and so proteins are what is encoded in our DNA and then the proteins do all the work of making living organisms so Google's Alpha fold project took threedimensional
images of proteins and the DNA sequence that codes for those proteins and then they built a predictive model that predicted the three-dimensional structure of a protein from the DNA that codes for it and that was a huge breakthrough years ago what they just announced with Alpha fold 3 today is that they're now including all small molecules so all the other little molecules that go into chemistry and
biology that drive the function of everything we see around us and the way that all those molecules actually bind and fit together is part of the predictive model why is that important well let's say that you're designing a new drug and it's a protein based drug which biologic drugs which most drugs are today you could find a biologic drug that binds to a cancer cell and then
you'll spend 10 years going to clinical trials and billions of later you find out that that protein accidentally binds to other stuff and hurts other stuff in the body and that's an off Target effect or a side effect and that drug is pulled from the clinical trials and it never goes to Market most drugs go through that process they are actually tested in in animals and then in humans and we
find all these side effects that arise from those drugs because we don't know how those drugs are going to bind or interact with other things in our biochemistry and we only discovered after we put it in but now we can actually model that with software we can take that drug we can create a three-dimensional representation of it using the software and we can model how that drug might interact with all the
other cells all the other proteins all the other small molecules in the body to find all the of Target effects that may arise and decide whether or not that presents a good drug candidate that is one example of how this capability can be used and there are many many others including creating new proteins that could be used to bind molecules or stick molecules together or new prot that
could be designed to rip molecules apart we can now predict the function of threedimensional molecules using this this capability which opens up all of the software based design of chemistry of biology of drugs and it really is an incredible breakthrough moment the interesting thing that happened though is Google alphabet has a subsidiary called isomorphic Labs it is a drug
development subsidiary of alphabet and they've basically kept all the IP for Alpha fold 3 in is so Google is going to monetize the heck out of this capability and what they made available was not open source code but a webbased viewer that scientists for quote non-commercial purposes can use to do some fundamental research in a web-based viewer and make some experiments and try stuff out and how
interactions might occur but no one can use it for commercial use only Google's isomorphic Labs can so number one it's an incredible demonstration of what AI outside of llms which we just talked about with Sam today and obviously talked about other models but llms being kind of this consumer text predictive model capability but outside of that there's this capability in things like chemistry with these new AI models that
can be trained and built to predict things like three-dimensional chemical interactions that is going to open up an entirely New Era for you know human progress and I think that's what's so exciting I think the other side of this is Google is hugely advantaged and they just showed the world a little bit about some of these jewels that they have in the treasure chest and they're like look
at what we got we're going to all these drugs and they've got Partnerships with all thesea companies at isomorphic Labs that they've talked about and it's going to usher in a new era of drug development design for human health so all in all I'd say it's a pretty like astounding day a lot of people are going crazy over the capability that they just demonstrated and then it begs all this
really interesting question around like you know what's Google G to do with it and how much value is going to be created here so anyway I thought it was a great story and I just rambled on for a couple minutes but I don't know it's pretty cool super interesting is is this AI capable of making a science Corner that David saak pay attention to well it will it will predict the Cure
I think for the common cold and for herpes so he should pay attention absolutely folding cells is the app that Sachs casual game Sachs just downloaders playing how many uh how many chest moves did you make during that segment sex sorry let me just say one more thing do you guys remember we talked about yamanaka factors and how challenging it is to basically we can reverse aging if
we can get the right proteins into cells to tune the expression of certain gen to make those cells youthful right now it's a shotgun approach to trying millions of compounds and combinations of compounds to do them there's a lot of companies actually trying to do this right now to come up with a fountain of youth type product we can now simulate that so with this system one of the things that this
Alpha 3 can do is predict what molecules will bind and promote certain sequences of DNA which is exactly what we try and do with the yanaka factor-based expression systems and find ones that won't trigger off Target expression so meaning we can now go through the search space and software of creating a combination of molecules that theoretically could unlock this Fountain
of Youth to deage all the cells in the body and introduce an extraordinary kind of health benefit and that's just again one example of the many things that are possible inredible with this sort of platform I I and I'm really I gota be honest I'm really just sort of skimming the surface here of what this can do the capabilities and the impact are going to be like I don't know I know I say this
sort of stuff a lot but it's going to be pretty for half there's um on the Block post they have this incredible video that they show of the Corona virus that creates a common cold I think the S P&M protein and not only did they literally like predict it accurately they also predicted how it interacts with an antibody with a sugar it's nuts so you could see a world where like I don't know you just get a vaccine
for the cold and it's kind of like you never have colds again amazing I mean simple stuff but so powerful you can filter out stuff that has offt Target effect so so much of drug Discovery and all the side effect stuff can start to be solved for in silicone and you could think about running extraordinar large use a model like this run extraordinarily large simulations in a
search space of chemistry to find stuff that does things in the body that can unlock you know all these benefits can do all sorts of amazing things to destroy cancer to destroy viruses to repair cells to deage cells and this is a hundred billion dollar business they say I alone I feel like this is where I I've said this before I think Google's got this like portfolio of like
quiet extraord what if they hit and the fact and I think the fact that they didn't open source everything in this says a lot about their intentions yeah yeah open source when you're behind closed Source lock it up when you're ahead but show yamanaka actually interestingly yamanaka is the Japanese whiskey that saak serves on his plane as well it's delicious I love that Hokkaido yak
Jason I feel like if you didn't find your way to Silicon Valley you could be like a Vegas Lounge comedy guy absolutely for sure yeah I was actually yeah somebody said I should do like those 1950s those 1950s talk shows where the guys would do like the the stage show somebody told me I should do um like spald and gray Eric bosan style stuff I don't know if you guys remember
like the uh the monologue is from the 80s in New York I was like oh that's interesting maybe all right everybody thanks for tuning in to the world's number one podcast can you believe we did it jamath uh the number one podcast in the world and the all-in summit the Ted killer if you are going to Ted congratulations for genu flecting if you want to talk about real issues come to the all-in summit and if you are
protesting at the all-in summit let us know uh what mock meet you would like to have freeberg is setting up mock meat stations for all of our protesters and what milk you would like yeah all vegan if you if your o milk nut milk come five different kinds of zanth gum you can from all of the nut milks you could want and then they'll be mindful can we have some soil likein please yes on the south lawn we'll have
the goat yoga going on so just please note that the goat yoga will be going on for all of you it's very thoughtful for you to make sure that our protesters are going to be well well fed well taken care of yes we're actually freeberg is working on the protester gift bags the protester gift bags they're made Yak folding proteins so you're good folding proteins I think I saw them open
for the Smashing Pumpkins in 2003 on fire on fire enough I'll be here for three more nights love you boys byebye love you besties is this the all Potter open mic night what's going on it's basically I'm just bored let your winners ride Rainman David said we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it love queen [Music] of Besties are my dog taking
driveway oh man myit will meet me we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cuz they're all this useless it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release somehow [Music] your we need to get [Music] merch all right that's episode 178 and now the plugs the all-in Summit is taking place in Los Angeles on September 8th through the 10th you can apply for a
ticket at summit. Allin podcast.co scholarships will be coming soon if you want to see the four of us interview Sam Alman you can actually see the video of this podcast on YouTube youtube.com Allin or just search all-in podcast and hit the alert Bell and you'll get updates when we post we're doing a Q&A episode live when the YouTube channel hits 500,000 and we're going to do a party in Vegas my
understanding when we hit a million subscribers so look for that as well you can follow us on x x /the all inpod Tik Tok is allore inor talk Instagram the all inpod and on LinkedIn just search for the all-in podcast you can follow chth x.com chth and you can sign up for a substack at cho. substack docomo freeberg can be followed at x.com freeberg and ohal is hiring click on the careers page at ohal
genetics.com and you can follow saxs at x.com davit saxs saxs recently spoke at the American moment conference and people are going crazy for it it's pinned to his tweet on his X profile I'm Jason kakanis I amx.com Jason and if you want to see pictures of my Bulldogs and the food I'm eating go to instagram.com Jason inth firstname Club you can listen to my other podcast this week in
startups just search for it on YouTube or your favorite podcast player we are hiring a researcher apply to be a research you're doing primary research and working with me and producer Nick working in data and Science and being able to do great great research Finance Etc Allin podcast.co resesarch it's a full-time job working with us the besties we'll see you all next time when the Allin podcast