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I know that Calico really closed the loop on a lot of life for you.
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I would love to honor that record a little bit with some hindsight and before we start this new journey because it really, you know, was a we knew each other before that.
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We've been talking and connecting and you've been kind enough to let me talk to you about your music over the years and I know you don't do that often.
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But Calico was a real it was a threshold moment for both of us, right?
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Cuz that album just moves me, continues to move me so much.
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How did it change your life looking back on it now?
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Because when we spoke you were in it.
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>> Yeah, it's so funny like looking back on it it really did change my life.
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At the time maybe I felt um still so in it like the bruise still still felt really fresh in some ways.
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Even touring it I felt like I carried the feeling of those songs.
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Like I would leave the stage and be like feel the weight on my shoulders still in some ways.
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>> Well, cuz it's an actual journey.
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The album is literally a journey through the heart and the heartland. Right. >> Right.
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>> And so you know, to go back out on stage every night, how do you not put yourself back >> Exactly.
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And like I really tried to tap into like how those songs made me feel.
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So yeah, I just felt like weirdly the pain carried on in some way.
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But now that I've made this record I feel like I can look back on it with like so much appreciation and like gratitude.
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I feel like right now I'm so just like appreciative of the fans of my of my music.
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Like they really have like stuck with me through so long through so much and um >> You gave us the license to do that. >> Yes.
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>> You turned the satellite off and the radar down in terms of what you do and let us go and do that.
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And I don't know how conscious that was for you or how much of it was to some degree that moment in your life self-preservation, but it it's a beautiful experiment.
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>> Yeah, certainly some self-preservation for sure.
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I think I'm totally acceptive of the fact that like putting things out into the world makes me uncomfortable even if I love it so much. >> Mhm.
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>> Um and especially a record like Calico, it felt really exposing. >> Mhm.
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>> And so yeah, I kind of really did make the choice to like put it out and then like be like, "Okay, this is up to everybody else to see like where this goes."
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>> I I I I asked you to do more press. >> Yeah, yeah.
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>> This is how weird this is, but I love this album so much that even after I of course after our conversation, I said, "Man, you you you should maybe talk more about it."
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>> Yeah, like I just don't know if I can.
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It was really hard for me to find that that that space for me where I could like confidently stand by the record and be like, "I'm willing to like I don't know be here with it."
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Um this record I feel like I really want to be here with it. >> Of course. >> of it.
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Um >> And there's so much new life in it. >> Yeah, yeah.
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It was interesting to make music from a place of joy, a place from a place of love and not heartbreak or um you know, a place of trauma or anything like that.
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>> In in a way in a very distinct way it's it's it's it's own very specific challenge to do that. >> Yeah.
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Oh my god, especially for me because I've written so many records about longing, about um unrequited love. >> Yeah.
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>> Um what could have been. >> Yeah.
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>> Um this is like >> honor what you have in your hand without potentially sullying it in the thing that's most precious to you out of anything out of your relationships, which is your music? >> Yeah.
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And especially putting out putting it out in the public way.
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Like I've never done that before.
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So like I really talk about it on this record. >> do.
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>> And um it's fun to celebrate that.
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But at first I felt a little timid to to even go there.
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I knew that I had to honor it though because this is truly what is happening and what was happening in my life.
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And I think for me that's the most important thing is to um really capture the chapter that I'm in with these records and I want to look back on these records 20 years from now and be like, I remember that. I really remember that.
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>> You're such an honest writer.
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It's why we resonate so much with your music.
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We we hear the truth in what you say and how you say it and what the music that you put around it is.
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Was there a lightning rod moment in your life before we begin in earnest going through this album where you realized that honesty was the only policy?
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>> It's the only thing that excites me when I'm in the room making the music.
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It's the only thing that feels comfortable for me.
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And it's so funny because speaking on it makes me feel uncomfortable, but singing about it makes me feel so at peace.
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It makes me really understand myself.
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Um it feels like the bridge between me and the listener and I feel like a lot of the times I think artists these days forget that it's about the song.
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It's about the music and um everything else that goes around it is important to tell the story, but like that's where I connect with the fans.
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Everything else is just extra, you know.
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>> How comfortable, if at all, have you become meeting people like me who don't get it out of our system by watching people like you and me often?
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So when they see you or they meet you and the music has been hours to share and enjoy and really it's about ownership in a beautiful way.
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It belongs to us and not to the internet.
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It's our personal experience.
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So that must really come through when people meet you. They know you.
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>> I feel like a lot of respect.
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I feel like with Calico when I put that out there there was a shift in the way that like people talked about my music or talked to me about my music.
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Um and that has been really cool.
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>> Cuz the pen is unmatched. It really is, man.
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I mean I said it at the time now and it's so beautiful to see what that record and subsequently your life has become through the filter of pure quality. >> Thank you. Yeah. >> It's like good wins.
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>> One of my favorite things actually last time I was here you said you played Hunter and then you go, "Who writes that?"
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And I looked at you and I said, "I did. I do, yeah. I do."
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And then it's so funny cuz looking back after after that, I I didn't even remember that I said it and then I saw it and I was like, "Whoa."
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Like, it felt cool to to have that confidence to say that. >> that moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I loved that part of our conversation and it actually went about as viral as anything I do goes because I think people loved it, too.
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They loved to hear somebody say, "Well, obviously I do.
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It's my life and this is what came out of me."
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Okay, a lot of surprises on this record for you, I'm sure.
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A lot of moments when you're listening back to it and you're like, "Huh. Mhm.
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Didn't quite know I was feeling that way at the time." Where did that begin?
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Where does this album begin for you?
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You said Phantom was one of the first songs you did.
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Let's get Let's get some chronological things going on here.
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>> Yeah, so Phantom was the first song I wrote for the record.
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I think immediately I felt surprised because um started off like a little more theatrical than like I've ever gone, um including the key changes.
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Um And so that just felt like a different soundscape for me, you know?
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Um >> Yeah, it definitely has like a very and I mean this is like a high compliment, it has a level of 70s ambition to it. >> Love that.
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>> Back then, when you know, pop songs used to like go on the radio, you'd be like, "Wow, with three key changes at 9 minutes in." Do you know what I mean?
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>> I I think it was also I was listening to a lot of Bread at that time. >> Yeah.
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I hear David Gates in it, actually. >> Cool. Love that. >> Yeah. >> So yeah, Phantom.
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And then after I wrote Phantom, it was the first little piece I had, I went on one last leg of the tour that I was on.
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Um came back to music earlier in January in 2025.
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Um so I had Phantom and then me and Claire Clairo were going to do some sessions together with Ethan.
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Ethan had to go home early.
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Claire and I stuck around a bit and she We were like, "Should we go in today?"
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Like we felt like um is in >> In New York, yeah.
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So, I had I'd never written in New York before, I'd never made music in New York, which was a new thing for me.
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And also like I really realized that you know, changing the space that I'm in really does like take me out of >> It's not Hunter. >> Yeah. No, no, it's not. Yeah.
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>> kind of Hunter, I suppose, New York.
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But you know what I mean.
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It's It's definitely It is a wonderful reaction to what was effectively, like I said, an album built from inside the heart to the heartland of of of your journeys and the running from something painful to discover something new. >> Yeah.
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>> New York is no running. >> No, no, no, no.
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Yeah, especially because I was at that point in a long distance relationship and he was living in Boston.
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So, I would take the train from >> that's like an hour on the train.
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What are you complaining about?
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>> Yeah, but I wasn't living in New York. I was living in LA.
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So, that was a I mean, I don't know how much further you could get, you know. So. >> coast to coast.
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>> Yeah, so but it was nice to like be making the record, take the train, come back, write some more.
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But after Phantom was Delancey, that was the next song I wrote, which again was a little bit more theatrical and over chords that I never thought I would lean towards. >> Over one or two.
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I mean, that song doesn't change shape.
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I mean, if Phantom is restless and searching for a new heart all the time, this one knows itself from the second you start it. >> Yeah.
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And that was one of the quickest verses I wrote for the record.
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Also, it felt like it just like came right out of me. So.
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>> Where were you when you wrote it?
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I'm going to get granular with this.
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>> I was at Electric Lady Studios. >> Oh, wow.
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So, you were in process when you wrote the words? Yes.
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Is that rare for you to write in the room?
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>> Well, I had I had some of those lines like in my pocket.
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Um, but what was interesting was when I was saying those lines, I knew I wanted to like put it somewhere like those first sort of four lines of the verse.
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It was just it fit like a glove. I was like, this is it.
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So, then I shaped the rest around that.
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>> Yeah, but when it comes to actually committing to the process of expressing these words, these ideas, these journal entries into something, sitting with Ethan getting ready to make music.
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How had your approach or the feeling of starting something changed from the last time because your life has changed?
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>> It's changed a lot, actually.
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It It I have to say that before I before I committed to the next record, I almost pretended like it wasn't going to happen.
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Like I was touring and I was like, I'll get there when when I get there.
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I was almost a little afraid to approach the next thing because I loved the last record I made so much.
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I feel like it put me into new space.
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I feel like people were really um like really connecting to the music I'd made and I was like, well, how do I do that again?
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>> Well, I can also imagine that that music came from a very, very traumatic personal experience that you went through. You can't Xerox that. >> Yeah, exactly.
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>> So, what happens if I can't get to that place?
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>> You just have to let life happen, you know?
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Like I had to um you know, I was touring the record, but I was also like really trying to have a life outside of that.
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I think because that's that's where like the art comes.
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That's where the words come from is there, not from necessarily like the act of making the music, but the life I live outside of it.
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Um so, I always want to be able to like separate the two.
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>> But then they come back together at the perfect time and that's exactly it.
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So, yeah, we have a love album here.
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Um and it's not by any stretch without its like all love stories without its bumps. >> For sure. Yeah.
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>> That's the beauty of it.
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That's get over that so it's better on the other side.
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Um but you've given us a really beautiful manuscript of what it is to be in love from your perspective on this record.
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It's generous and wonderful. >> Thank you.
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>> Um so, how do you and I hope I'm going to word this in a really nice and caring way for all in attendance, how do you approach that whilst also honoring the sanctity of a relationship because as a writer, it's all to play for, but when there's someone else involved and you're not on your own trying to mind your own emotions and thoughts, you got to think about protecting somebody else or something else.
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That's a whole other challenge, right? It's a new learning. >> Yeah.
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That was uh it was it was hard for me to face because I care about this person so much.
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I love this person so much.
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How do I like distill it down to a song?
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And how do I like bring meaning in a in a poetic way that feels like it really honors it, but also like protects it?
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Like that was that was tough, you know, because like I told you before, writing from a place of heartbreak brings so much fantasy.
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Writing from a place of love, certainly there's fantasy, but it's like also the realest thing.
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So, to get over that, yeah, to get over that was tricky, but I will say that Sweet Fortune was one of the first songs I also wrote.
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It was I want to say third or fourth and during that New York trip that I had written.
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So, when I had that in my pocket, I was like, "Oh, like I can I can go there.
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I can like write a love song that feels really good."
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>> And you wrote that on the train?
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>> I didn't write that on the train, but I wrote that when I was at at the studio. I I sat with Claire. She pulled those chords.
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We wanted to make something really classic feeling.
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Um This is this is funny, but I had been listening to the song Rainbow Connection a lot.
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And like that's to me one of the most perfect songs. >> Perfect.
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>> And >> It's got to be the only number one global classic copyright hit sung by puppets. >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
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>> which by the way is going to be off the hook for that to happen.
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>> Which by the way, all of the Jim Henson music is like incredible.
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So, I just want to throw that out there.
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But, um Yeah, so I had been listening to that song a lot.
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I knew I wanted to make something that felt as pure as that in some way.
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>> Yeah, purity's a big big part of this record, for sure. >> Definitely.
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From top to bottom, there's a real if not it always it always achieved cuz it nothing could be entirely pure.
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The ambition is to get to the purity. >> Yes. Yes.
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It's so funny, too, because you can't like you can't squeeze it.
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You can't you can't like force it into to to being that.
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It has to like you have to aim for it, but also like really be open-armed and like Yeah.
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Fall into the experience in a way.
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>> Speaking of which, performance-wise we've got to honor that.
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I mean, there's range and there's power that you're searching for and you discover and you reach on this album that we haven't heard like this.
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You know, there's moments when you know, you are unapologetically striving. >> Mhm. Yeah.
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Um I think that also comes from the fact that this time around I uh in the past I would record the song the day I wrote it and those would be the vocals for the song.
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Whereas this record I re-recorded basically all the vocals. >> Interesting.
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>> And that was hard that was another uh hurdle for me because >> demoitis? >> I do. Yeah.
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That was the thing that I really had to get over because I I you know, I believe that instinct is the most important, but I also with some of these songs I knew the kind of performance I wanted to reach and I knew that I had it in me, but I knew that I needed to >> Oh, that's tough, Ryan. That's tough, man.
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It's tough because what you're doing is you're setting yourself a goal that to your point you can't force.
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So, it's like how am I going to get to an emotional resonance that I'm searching for to convey how I feel without performing it? >> Yeah. Yeah.
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So, I mean, there would be times where I recorded the song and then I'd come back to the song and be like, that that's not it.
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I didn't have it that day.
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I had to be really okay with that.
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I had to be okay with being like, today's not the day to do this, but I will I will do it when I'm ready.
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And >> How did you know you were ready?
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>> Just when it felt right.
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When my when I would wake up and my voice felt warm and uh I felt uh I don't know, excited to do it.
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>> Isn't it crazy that you have an this instrument, right?
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That was that is your natural environment to communicate and express yourself and you've learned and continue to learn the craft of songwriting and of playing music, but the thing that we resonate that gives you this gift is inherently yours.
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You know, um did you always realize and honor that gift or did you did you come to a point in your life where you were like I need I need to offer myself the perspective of realizing what this actually is.
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>> I'll say that melody is one of the first things I ever gravitated towards period.
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Like when I was a kid, I would just like sing all the time.
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I knew I knew that that was something I had.
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So, music was something I knew would was a North Star for me growing up.
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Um it took a long time to convince myself that I could do it even when I was young and doing it.
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I I was like, "I don't know if I could ever really be a great songwriter."
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Like I know I'm a vocalist, but what does it mean to be a songwriter?
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Didn't ever feel smart enough to be a songwriter.
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But now I'm realizing that like songwriting is actually the easiest way for me to communicate my feelings.
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>> Well, I mean, how do you do that as a kid?
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You're searching for ways to express yourself and to your point and to a lot of people's journeys, including mine, you know, the early music you make and the outlets you choose, really you're trying to fill a hole, you don't quite know what you're filling it with.
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You know, until you start making these albums and then it's like, "Oh, I'm getting somewhere." >> Yeah.
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I'm really proud of sort of the uh like what I've carved out for myself because I feel like I really know my voice as a songwriter.
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And um you know, it's it was even with the Beyoncé records, like I felt really respected during that whole process.
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Like I felt really in it, which uh yeah, I don't know.
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I I think that's going to be a huge part of my life story, you know?
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Um so monumental for me and at a time where before I'd even put Calico out, at a time where I really felt like uh being in those rooms, I was like nobody could tell me anything. Like I'm doing it. Like I'm doing it.
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I'm in it right now and I'm doing it and >> Ryan, how do you get past imposter syndrome when you're in a room like that even with the with the utmost confidence in your own abilities, but you're in a room and someone's looking for the right line or the right word or a melody change and you're in the think tank and you've got to get it right. >> Hm.
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Well, I think like I said, like music is a thing I'm probably most confident in.
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Like it it feels like uh it's the easiest thing for me to tap into in some ways.
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I think that a lot of the times though, like the imposter syndrome thing is for real for real for me.
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But I've learned to sort of like fake it until it feels good and that's uh been sort of yeah, my mantra in some ways.
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>> What's the >> It doesn't feel fake anymore though.
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Like I really uh >> Never did to us, but I know it does to the artist because because hey, I've been in rooms with people and go had to pinch myself and go, "Okay, you've invited me to be part of this."
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And I do it's a small part of my life in terms of the time spent, but I have friends of mine who do it a lot.
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And you know, after a few drinks they'll tell me like, "Oh, dude, there's still moments where I'm like, 'What if I can't contribute?'" >> Well, I mean, yeah.
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I mean, that fear definitely comes up even with like approaching this record.
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It's like "Can I still do this?
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Like can I still bring what I know that I have to bring to get a song that like excites me?" Cuz it takes a lot.
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>> I love that you said that too because it it really reinforces how what you do is the impetus of all the other things that come from it, whether it's being in the studio with another artist or collaborating other environments.
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If you don't get this right.
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Whereas that's not always the case.
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Some people it's more of an even balance between their job as a writer or producer or whatever and the music that they're making.
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But I've I you would reject all those other things if you couldn't >> Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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And mean, it all has to come from the same well. You know what I mean?
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Like uh I have to be moved by it even if it's for somebody else.
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Otherwise, I'm not interested in it, you know?
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>> I'm going to ask the most un-Ryan Ryan Beatty question I could possibly ask, but it's totally worth it because you it's it's based in fact.
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Where's your Grammy album of the year?
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>> It's I have a perfect mantle for it, actually, at my place.
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But it's funny because before I even won that Grammy, I knew that that's where it was going to sit.
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So, I saw it in my mind before I had it and then I had it and I got it and I was like, "Yeah, that's where I knew it would be." So, >> Manifestation. >> Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.
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>> Why why would we ever not believe in magic? >> Oh, man.
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I'm super down to embrace that these days.
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I think something that I really really realized like with my songwriting is that like yes, it comes from me, but it also just passes through me.
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Like a lot of the times I'm just the messenger for what I have to give to the world and like who it connects to is who it's supposed to connect to.
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Um I'm really trying to embrace that and like that being my like ceiling for success.
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Like if it if it really does connect to people, like honoring that, you know what I mean?
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And really appreciating it and not seeing it as just like, "Okay, cool."
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Like that that's magic, you know?
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>> That approach that you're talking about, which stems from taking time away, coming back, making the music that moved you, and then allowing it to live and breathe and find its audience requires excessive amounts of patience.
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But I know from times we've hung out off the record that that's not always the case for you, that you do you are impatient in a lot of ways in life, like all of us.
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>> You know, because it it's fun to put out records.
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It's like I said, it scares me a little bit, but like I I'm I am addicted to the feeling of like doing it even no matter how long it takes me to make it because it it it it's always worth it.
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The process can be incredibly painful.
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Like I don't want to like shy away from the fact like this is a hard thing to do. This is hard to do this.
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It's not um It means It means a lot to me. >> Yeah.
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Secret language, I want to I want to spend a bit of time talking about that song. >> Yeah.
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>> You know, singles are funny, especially when you're an albums artist and I'm we're all looking forward to the entire experience.
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This whole conversation is to try to encapsulate the experience of making a body of work.
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But you really honor the idea of a standalone song.
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You gave us a beautiful video.
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Um really brilliant video.
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And it to me it really speaks to your legacy of of you know, visual content, which is as a escapism, a yearning that you seem to search for.
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A lot of washed-out colors.
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The idea of almost a dreamscape meets reality. Does this ring true? >> Yeah. Of course, yeah.
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I mean, the concept itself is like, you know, ridiculous in the way that I'm throwing a paper airplane from LA and catching it in Boston. You know what I mean?
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It's like that's that's not a real thing that could ever happen.
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Um but there's something like wondrous about it that I was like really obsessed with.
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Like I just had the thought one day.
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I was really dreading doing a video.
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I have to be honest with you. >> Why?
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>> That's something I've not gotten comfortable with fully.
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Like I don't know that it's important in some ways to tell the story you want to tell, but um it's something I still uh >> It's performative. >> shy away from. Yeah, yeah.
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>> Yeah, and unless somebody else is doing it for you or it's a concept, but at this point in your life, you wouldn't be you wouldn't be mad at your team for saying Ryan, like you're you're the best you've ever looked.
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You know, people look forward to your music now.
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Like let's get you on camera. So it is a threshold. >> It is.
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I think I wouldn't have done it had it not been, you know, I was doing it with my best friend >> Mhm.
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>> Jacob, who like really has been a supporter of all my ideas and like someone that I think I'll always like carry with me in all my creative >> Mhm.
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>> you know, endeavors or whatever.
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Doing it with him was was so fun and we had such a small small crew.
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Everyone was so down for this idea.
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You know, we put the idea together basically in a week.
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We shot the video 3 weeks ago. >> How long did it take?
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It was just a road trip with you and some friends really.
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I mean, how did you do it?
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>> Um so, we drove from here to Vegas.
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We took a tour bus from Vegas all the way to New Orleans.
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>> Oh this isn't a music video. This is a great time.
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You literally took a tour bus to New Orleans.
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Yeah, SHOULD WE SHOOT SOMETHING?
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>> WELL, THAT'S the thing.
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I was like, if I'm going to do this, I want to enjoy it because it's an uncomfortable experience. So, yeah. >> it. Amazing.
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>> I was like, let's let's have fun with this and we certainly did and >> It also looks a little bit like some of the shots you're a little more out of breath than others.
23:41
Big big night before on the tour bus.
23:44
>> I wouldn't say that, but I would say like running in cowboy boots all god damn day was so hard.
23:50
>> I mean, you didn't have to.
23:50
I mean, you could you could have worn sketchers, you know, you didn't have to wear cowboy boots.
23:53
There are there is alternative footwear for running.
23:56
>> There was conversation about, "Hey, you know, like I think the shot we're going to do waste up like we can just put on some like other shoes."
24:00
And I was like, "I have to wear the cowboy boots because I have to keep this consistent."
24:07
>> Like there's not going to be >> Who wants to see inside Ryan in a music video? >> Yeah, exactly.
24:10
>> No one wants to see indoors Ryan, you know? >> We have to do it.
24:12
So, through all the blisters and the shin splints, it was worth it.
24:15
>> No, it's beautiful, man.
24:15
Let's talk about some of the people that you brought in to work on this.
24:17
You and Ethan back in course.
24:19
That's just it's like a flawless victory.
24:22
I mean, the two of you just and I feel like you push each other on this record in a really lovely way as well.
24:27
New new you know, arrangements and tempos and feelings and Ethan really leaning into some of like the sort of analog synth space.
24:35
At the end of Phantom, what he's doing there is just gorgeous.
24:39
>> Yeah, Ethan and I will make music together for life for sure.
24:42
He's someone I trust creatively, his choices sonically.
24:49
We we are both really sensitive.
24:49
We both like grew up on similar music with similar music.
24:53
So, like um yeah, I just I love making music with him and I feel like we did really push each other this this go around and we were really really like taking a leap of faith.
25:02
>> What's the song that the two of you were working on that you felt like most and just in terms of the collaboration not so much the writing which we've covered a bit that you felt most uncomfortable in or like wow, I'm really got to see this through in order to see what I'm capable of.
25:15
>> We took a long time with Florida Lee but Florida Lee was one of our favorites to make but I think because it's so >> You got to get there. You got to get there.
25:24
>> it took a while so we actually had that laying around for a bit.
25:27
I had a couple melodies maybe but that song took the longest.
25:30
It was also the last song we made for the record so what I love is that like the first song we made Phantom is the first and I knew that would be the first.
25:36
Florida Lee I knew it would be the last and it was the last song.
25:40
>> God I feel for a song.
25:40
I mean it's just wants to live and you guys are like setting the bar so high for yourselves.
25:47
>> The last one to record, a crescendo, a last song on the album.
25:51
>> We knew it would be worth it and we knew what it would take. >> Mhm.
25:55
>> That's the thing with him is like we both know what it takes.
25:56
We both know how to push each other and I think it's important to have collaborators like that, you know, that know what you're capable of capable of but know that um you know, he gave me a lot of advice when there were times where I was really really frustrated with myself while making this record. >> What causes that?
26:14
What can Can you give us an example that you feel comfortable sharing about something where the inner voice is is is the the wrong inner voice is winning the battle.
26:25
>> The wrong inner voice is like people know of me as this like maybe soft, sensitive, especially with Calgary, this soft, sensitive um heartbroken songwriter in some ways. >> There we go.
26:37
>> And I knew that >> Here we is.
26:38
He is cutting the bruises off the peach. >> Exactly.
26:40
And I'm like I can't always cut the bruises off the peach.
26:41
You know, sometimes the peach is just the peach and it just tastes good, you know.
26:46
So like have moments of like I know that I'm making something that's true and I know something I'm making what I am supposed to be making and I'm loving what I'm making.
26:54
But that voice, especially coming after um like touring all year, coming after all these like artists that I never thought would check for me, check for my music, letting me know how like moved they are by it.
27:07
Like these things that I never had before that I dreamed of had just happened.
27:12
And I'm like, okay, well, now I have to rise to the occasion.
27:13
But there's no like rising to expectations because that you can't have that in the room.
27:20
Like you have to like certainly push yourself, but people are going to connect with with what they connect with, but all you can do is make what is true.
27:30
I know that sounds corny, but like you have to. >> calls it?
27:34
My kid will hate me for putting him on blast.
27:35
He's a He's a songwriter.
27:37
He says um perception is the enemy of feeling. >> Period. That's so good.
27:45
And there are moments where like I I would be writing one of these songs and I'd felt that where I was like, can I like can I comfortably go there?
27:53
And Ethan would be like, yeah. Like you're doing it. And like it's good. And like keep doing it.
28:03
And just having somewhere someone there to like kind of lead me through those uncomfortable feelings and like talk me out of my own like self-sabotage or whatever it would be is really important.
28:11
I never felt like people were expecting something from me before Calico.
28:15
I I was such a free bird.
28:18
I was like, I could make something and no one can hear it, but I'm I love this, so I'll be happy with it. And then I made that. >> I know.
28:25
>> So then to trick myself back into that headspace was something I couldn't do, but I had to like be okay with that.
28:31
>> You were so laissez-faire in the most loving way about that record when you finished it in the days after it was done.
28:37
When we spoke before it all began to unfold for you.
28:41
I I never got the feeling that it was you were protecting yourself, but I think that was probably a nice byproduct of of the of what you were doing.
28:48
>> But I really just felt like it's enough that I did it. >> That, too.
28:52
And I really wanted to stand by the feeling of like the music should be enough.
28:57
Like if you make something great, like that should be enough.
28:59
I I I have to tell you like I don't still don't know comfortably like how to sometimes enter the online space and like and like get the I want the music to be heard.
29:13
Like I want people to know that I want the music to be heard.
29:18
Where the music industry is at and where people hear music isn't necessarily places that I'm comfortable being in and like making that great word you used earlier, content.
29:27
Like that's something I still don't know um Like maybe I'm getting a little more comfortable with certain things, but it's hard to find sometimes that space of like artistic morals versus like these self-imposed rules that I might put on myself.
29:44
>> You're such an interesting case study and you're not alone.
29:46
There are others in their own way that are like you that began in a certain space and and accepted and embraced the promise >> Mhm.
29:56
>> of what it would be as a whole new space for us to use, a whole new toolbox.
30:00
We can find an audience and we can entertain them and do this only to come out the other side way ahead of schedule. >> Yeah.
30:07
>> And go, "You know what? That's not for me." >> Exactly. So, >> Crazy. >> a space >> it. >> that feels good.
30:14
It's been tricky, but yeah, it's always going to be about the music for me and I think that I will never I always go against the grain in that way.
30:21
Like my music will never be just the vessel for marketing or for >> a feeling.
30:26
Like it's got to be got to be great.
30:29
Like I sense that there especially right now like people want that bravery for themselves too.
30:33
Like I know artists are burnt out by like what is expected of them cuz it's more and more and more as time goes on.
30:40
I feel like artists sometimes forget that like the reason why any of this is a thing or why these things are being asked of us is because like we actually do hold the power.
30:52
I know that sounds corny to say, but like >> if we don't do it, then we won't have to do it.
30:58
Even when I'm like the most exhausted, like the fight against that is worth it to me because I don't care a I won't care about music.
31:07
Um I'm I'm trying to find a way to comfortably speak on this.
31:14
I I music will no longer be art if we continue going down >> I agree. >> this path. >> I agree. It's a It's content.
31:21
>> It just makes me feel sad for for younger artists.
31:24
Um >> They'll be fine cuz you uh at the end of the day May, you know, it wasn't all figured out when you joined either.
31:28
It was a changing landscape then, too.
31:30
You saw from you and Ethan you know, you open it up to Leon. You talked about Claire.
31:38
It's a beautiful union that we have now on record already, a chemistry that you know, you brought in and connected with.
31:42
So, you're dabbling in this other room very purposefully and very thoughtfully what they create.
31:48
What did you and Ethan learn from bringing new people like that in?
31:51
>> Well, Claire and I had been friends for a while before uh we made anything together.
31:55
I've always had so much respect for her.
31:57
I think she's like one of the greatest.
32:00
>> She has a great relationship with time as well. >> Yes.
32:02
Like I just respect her so much.
32:02
We have such a mutual respect for like the way that we both move and we're protective over what we what we do and um but we never had a We never approached like working together before, but I had this thought um I was like, "Hey, would you ever like want to try like writing together?"
32:20
She was like, "Hell yeah, like let's do it."
32:24
Me and Ethan flew to New York.
32:24
We worked at Electric Lady Studios for like a couple weeks, I think.
32:28
Well, we intended to work for a couple weeks and then Ethan had to fly back.
32:32
The fires were happening in LA. Mhm.
32:33
He had to fly back and I was like, I I'm just going to stay here.
32:40
Like I just like don't know if I want to go back right now.
32:43
Like let me just like stick around and um hang in New York for a bit.
32:47
The day that we were supposed to work, Ethan left.
32:52
Clara and I were like, should we go in? Like what should we do?
32:54
And we're like, all right, let's just like see.
32:55
Like let's just see what happens.
32:56
And Leon was working in another room down the way.
33:00
So she was like, can you come in and give us like a couple chords?
33:01
I swear to God he like sat at the piano and it was the chords to Delancey. >> How about this?
33:09
>> We're like, oh, that's cool.
33:09
I was like, yeah, I normally wouldn't maybe like write it or something like that, but like maybe that's what we need right now. So then you looped it.
33:14
She was in the other room like playing flute over it.
33:18
And I I feel like it really broke me open in a way that I needed because I had a little bit of writer's block before this.
33:28
Um which is, you know, >> That's when you're in a voice and you're out of voice on communication. >> Yeah. Yeah.
33:32
I I had I had cold feet to make the record.
33:34
I was like, oh, like here we are. Like we're doing it. Like I'm I'm here. I'm doing the work.
33:38
I've shown up, but like uh the words I I can't I can't just make them appear.
33:43
Like they have to appear the way they're supposed to.
33:46
And Delancey came really quick and I was so moved by that song because I was like again, this feels like new for me. >> Mhm.
33:53
>> But I was obsessed with it and I was walking around after we bounced it.
33:56
Like I walked around with headphones on and it was snowing in New York and it just felt like >> And Washington Square Park just watching people in the snow. Amazing.
34:04
>> It was so great and that whole trip shook me up a bit that I in a way that I needed to.
34:09
And like I said, like then after that the next day I wrote Annie Anything and >> Oh, I love that. >> Thank you. Yeah.
34:13
Um that song is really special to me and uh >> Why is it special to you?
34:17
Can you give us Can you elaborate on your perspective?
34:20
>> that morning again, it was a it was snowing.
34:22
I was in New York and uh this person that I was that I'm singing about on this song, I normally would like send a text to and be like how beautiful it is here.
34:37
But the what was going on in the relationship between us was uh it was there's so much distance and so much confusion that happened.
34:48
And it it brought me to tears at that moment because I was alone I was sitting there I was like how sad is it that I don't feel like I can even like reach out to this person who I once like was so close to.
34:58
And the song in a way like you know Annie is a pseudonym for the person um but the song was so tender it was so close to the heart it was there it was there that day and um um oh that one also came really quick because I knew what I wanted to say like I knew it that that's what I wanted to say so without going too deep into it um uh it's it's special because it's one of the realest ones.
35:28
>> Have you had an opportunity to share the song with that person?
35:31
>> Yeah and uh that that story has resolved in a in a way that we've come out the other side like >> Beautiful. Beautiful.
35:40
>> closer than ever probably so. >> Beautiful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
35:43
>> It's it's cool and um again like this is just an example for me the way that like music can soothe soothe you >> Yeah.
35:52
>> and it allowed me to examine these feelings that I was having in a really really like like artistic but also like very straightforward way like it was emotional but it was like like I said also the realest realest to the bone you know so >> Why dress it up?
36:08
>> Yeah why dress it up >> Why dress There's plenty of chances to dress up and run run across the country in cowboy boots but when it comes to writing songs let's keep it >> Exactly. It's legit.
36:15
I I will say that one thing I'm really proud of is that there's a lot of moments in this record where it's not dressed up it's really just like bare and like even a song like too many ways it's like I'm really just saying it and then in the past I might would be like I'd be like, "Well, how can I say it without saying it?"
36:30
And I was like, "Well, no, I want to say it."
36:32
>> Oh, there's so many ways to love you and too many ways to say goodbye. Is that the lyric? It's killer.
36:34
I mean, it's so so so good. >> Thank you.
36:39
Yeah, that one um that one was exciting to write.
36:41
I wrote that by myself in New York.
36:43
I wrote that on guitar, which I never really start songs like myself.
36:46
Like, I know what I'm good at.
36:49
I know I'm I'm I know I'm good at melody and I know I'm a good songwriter. >> Yeah.
36:55
>> comes to playing it, I know that I'm not a guitar player.
36:57
Like, I can mess around on a guitar, but whatever.
36:59
But, I was in New York >> No one's coming to your show for solos, Ryan. >> Yeah, exactly. >> It's all right.
37:04
>> Hey, don't count me out.
37:04
Maybe someday, but the thing is is that I never started on guitar before like that. I picked it up.
37:10
I knew where the melody was sitting.
37:11
I was on a run, actually, when that line came to me.
37:13
So many ways to say I love you, too many ways to say goodbye. And I was like, "Ooh."
37:16
I'm like running and I'm writing it down.
37:17
I wasn't in cowboy boots that time, though.
37:20
And I I was like, "Oh, that's good."
37:23
And then the melody melody came to me a little bit.
37:26
Took the guitar, found it found my way around it.
37:29
And then I called Clara and I was like, "Okay, I have this song.
37:32
I I need you to help me like record a guitar version of it cuz I I don't feel confident like playing it." She's like, "Hell, yes."
37:40
She met me at the studio.
37:41
I played her the song and she was like, "This is so good."
37:43
She's like, "This is Glen Campbell.
37:45
Like, this is Glen Campbell."
37:47
And we were like freaking out.
37:48
And then so she does like, you know, part of the second verse with me in the in the harmonies then, which like I love hearing her sing that way cuz she's really belting it with me and like uh like making that was so much fun with her.
37:59
>> We got to talk about Virtuoso cuz, you know, I love Amy so much and what she does as a writer, you know, she's one of those writers that takes she finds a way to take what's going on in your life and put those cowboy boots on it. You know? >> She's so great. Amy is awesome.
38:16
And Ethan had talked about the three of us getting in a room together for a while for the session and um I was like, "Let's do it."
38:23
You know, how we had just worked with Claire a little bit.
38:27
We had So, basically like opened up to like collaboration like, "Let's see how that feels." >> Yeah.
38:32
And um I'm a huge fan of her.
38:34
I think that she has like her voice in in music and in pop music like the way she's been able to like cut through in a mainstream way but yet be so interesting still.
38:44
Like I really respect that cuz that's not easy.
38:46
Her and I getting together I was I just got back from Mardi Gras.
38:49
It was the next day and I was like, "I don't know if I'm going to be able to make something today but like we can try."
38:54
You know, I think sometimes you feel it, sometimes you don't.
38:58
>> Too much white lightning the night before.
39:00
>> Maybe the night before that.
39:00
But yeah, um just like I I might have still had like Mardi beads around my neck at that point, you know?
39:06
I don't really know but um we got in together and yeah, one of the first yeah, yeah.
39:12
Um but Ethan was playing quickly, you know, that that riff.
39:18
That instinct was like really fast.
39:18
Like a lot of the musical starts were like like right away.
39:23
That was one of those ones and that again, that melody was pretty instant for me.
39:30
Um and Amy was just great at it supporting that.
39:32
She just was like, "Go there. Yeah, like go there. Go there. Go there. Go there."
39:35
And I was like, "Okay, I like let's do it."
39:37
Like having someone just uh you know, that song maybe leans a little more pop on the record. Um I love that song.
39:45
It's my like >> Yeah, it's incredible and it is a pop song, straight up.
39:48
>> The Chicks fantasy for me. Like that's what it is.
39:50
Like when I hear that I was just saying yesterday how that it like makes me feel when I first heard Ready to Run by The Chicks.
39:54
Like it's like a core core musical memory for me. >> Yeah.
40:00
Um >> So, yeah, um making that was That was one of those moments where I was like, "Can I go here?"
40:05
But having them both look at me and be like, "Yeah, you can go here."
40:10
>> love how you pushed yourself and allowed people to come into your life to push you. >> Yeah.
40:15
>> You know, if you'd showed up and be like, "I cracked it last time and I and I know how to elaborate on that."
40:21
Look, no one's mad when AC/DC put out a record. No one's mad.
40:26
If you like AC/DC, nobody is mad that it sounds like AC/DC. No one's mad about that.
40:32
So, you know, yeah, you you would never do it, but there would be fans who'd be like, "Oh, beautiful, but I love that you came back to this with all the confidence and all of the knowledge.
40:43
>> No, but I mean, you come back to this thing with life being in such a different place with so much proof of concept. >> Yeah.
40:50
>> And you still wanted to go and prove a different concept.
40:53
>> I had to though, because that's what felt exciting to me.
40:54
Like, it felt it's kind of scary to open that up a little bit and be like, let people in the room, but at the same time, like I almost needed that. >> Yeah.
41:03
>> I needed like to hold hands along the way, like really, really, because um Like, I was scared to make I was scared to make the record.
41:13
I was scared to do it, but I needed people to remind me like, "You got this, you know?"
41:18
>> No, I think we've like talked about some covered a lot of ground in this conversation.
41:23
And one thing I want as we come to the end, I just want to get back to this one of the one of the spaces we we were in for a bit, which is to kind of address the people who are who are searching for their song, searching for their sound, figuring out who they are, but ultimately to your point, don't have the bravery yet or the voice yet to be able to say, "I'm going to do it my own way."
41:44
Now, I would love for you to kind of just shed a little bit of light on what it's taken for you >> Yeah.
41:53
>> to not play the game, but equally not reject it, either. >> Yeah. >> Right?
42:00
I don't want people to think that you are anti people hearing your music.
42:04
You said it very clearly before.
42:07
But to get to a point now where I I'd imagine with this amazing team behind you who get you and support you.
42:15
You'll do your best touring.
42:17
You'll bring this album where you'll be will be the best time of your life supporting this music, but you've taken your time and it's been hard work to get here.
42:24
I think it just be good to get some a little bit of perspective at the end of this about that.
42:28
>> I have so much empathy for artists and young artists who are like fighting the good fight in this day right now and because it's so hard.
42:36
Like I feel like the perception of music in some ways has been really commodified and cheapened by the by the way that we now consume it. >> Yep. Yep.
42:50
>> And it's hard to believe that there is another way or that there's um a way to like feel good outside of that.
42:59
Um I would say that like it might take a really long time to find what makes you special.
43:09
I think it took me a long time to find that or to recognize it.
43:10
Like it was there, but I didn't hone in on it.
43:16
Um allow a lot of time to hone in on it.
43:19
Don't be persuaded by what might work because nobody knows what works. Nobody knows what works.
43:24
You know what's good for you though and you know what feels good. Listen to that.
43:28
Don't listen to anything else and like be open, but don't be convinced by anybody that they have the answers cuz like what is important what is the answer what is like the reason why we're all here is like the music, the song, great songs. Focus on the song.
43:50
Everything else will find its place.
43:53
But it might take a really long time. Like don't be impatient.
43:54
I know what it feels like when something doesn't work.
43:59
I know what that feels like.
44:02
And it doesn't feel good.
44:03
But you have to have the faith that like by pushing past that like if it's really in your blood, if it's real if you're really about it, cuz you have to feel it in your bones.
44:11
If you're really about it, like you're going to find that space for you.
44:13
It might not be what you imagined, but you're going to find it.
44:16
Um I feel like I've found that.
44:18
And even in the the ways that I'm uncomfortable, um I know that it's worth it.
44:25
And I know that uh it's it's a life it's a life mission for me.
44:31
It's a lifelong thing for me, like uh That's the best way I can put it. >> Love you, man. >> Thank you.