0:00
Tucker. Love you. >> I love you. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, my time. >> glad to see you. >> Yeah. >> It's a blessing, man.
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0:06
This music really is by some considerable measure your best record yet by some considerable measure.
0:14
Tell me you don't know that already. >> I do.
0:17
>> [laughter] >> But also that's what you're supposed to say in these, you know.
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>> yeah, yeah, honesty comes later. >> this is my best work.
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>> It's only after five more albums you can say, you know, Chuck Tommy it wasn't my best work.
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I could have come back on it now, but that's not going to happen.
0:29
>> But sometimes people don't pick up on it if it's your best work. Some people, you know. Like I don't know.
0:34
Like Charlie's this next album, I've heard some of it and I'm like, this is amazing.
0:38
This is like her best work, you know.
0:43
Sometimes it's hard to like convince people, I guess.
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>> You know what though, that's what that separates artist from attention seeker.
0:49
Artist will wait for everyone else to figure it out.
0:50
Attention seeker gets freaked out and tries to change everything and catch up to the audience. Don't worry about that.
0:58
You know, from my perspective as a fan of yours, I had a really beautiful separation experience listening to this record from I removed the friendship of it. >> Oh, really?
1:08
>> Oh, man, I was just all in as a listener, as a fan, which is not easy sometimes when you like somebody as much as I like you, you know, to not be like, ah, yeah, you know, it's that's Tucker. It's not, man.
1:17
It's a brilliant role model album top to bottom 12 songs beautifully sequenced with real purpose.
1:23
I mean, ending with harmony.
1:27
>> [snorts] >> You know, good thing right in the middle.
1:28
There it is right in the middle, huh? End of side one.
1:33
>> I wanted it even higher up.
1:33
I'm I'm You texted me this morning and you just said good thing and I was like >> Yeah, yeah.
1:38
>> And that made me really happy.
1:40
>> You know what I learned from that text as well is that we both get up early. >> We do. I know. I was up at 6:00 a. m.
1:43
and you texted me at like 6:10 and I was like, wow.
1:48
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> this. >> Yeah, yeah, same. I love it.
1:50
I love getting up in the morning now. I really appreciate it.
1:52
I I don't have much of a choice as I get older that's going to be a necessity for me, but for you, you do. You can sleep through.
1:57
What What is the purpose for getting up early for you?
2:00
Is it Is it part of a daily routine?
2:01
Is it just the way you're built? >> I like routine.
2:04
I also like I love I get it from my dad, for sure.
2:10
He since I was born was up at like 5:00 a. m.
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every day and I think I get it from him and I don't know, the mornings are like my favorite time, especially when like no one's up yet. Streets are quiet.
2:23
Um I think also just like getting things done before people are awake makes me feel good about myself.
2:32
>> You have a strong getting things done attitude and I mean does that also come from your upbringing?
2:35
I mean we've talked a bit about that in previous times, but like let's just update that question to like how do the people who know you best and raised you the best that they could?
2:43
How do they see you now that you're actually going into your 30s at some point not too far away doing what you love and it's actually sustainable? >> They're really proud.
2:53
They were proud from day one when I had to like break the news that I was a I was trying to be a singer and they've always been supportive and I think I think work ethic aside or whatever, like they are happiest that I know where my roots are and um am so in love with where I'm from and where they chose to raise me and also where they were born and raised.
3:21
I think that means the most to them to hear it in the music, hear me talking about it on things like this.
3:29
Um that seems to make them the most proud, which is cool. >> Chuck Timely. Who and why?
3:37
>> Yeah, I mean obviously he's there, but also I feel like that that wasn't that long ago. That was you as well.
3:41
I feel like >> [laughter] >> a little bit.
3:45
>> I mean it's >> Maybe 22 to 25, that's not too far removed.
3:48
>> I mean, yeah, 2 years ago that's me.
3:48
I I >> [sighs] >> Yeah, we talked about it in the very beginning with the first single.
3:56
>> It's cool not being a concept, but what what But the the relationship you have with time is evident on this album, and there's obviously a vehicle for this, which is Chuck Timely, so >> I would never write song fictional songs about some a character I made up or something.
4:12
It's like the Chuck thing was born after I was writing these songs, and it was apparent and obvious that like time was a huge thing that was on my mind.
4:21
I didn't go into any of the songs being like this is the theme of the album.
4:28
It was just obviously that was coming out in the songs, so um that happened, and then also the way we were producing it um we wanted to lean into this as well, and take little things across eras and and artists not just do this like we didn't want when people review it to be like 70s inspired album or something like that.
4:56
Like that's very boring to me, and so we wanted to pull little things and make sure we're riding this like thin line um of of never leaning too much into a thing where you listen to a song and you're like, oh, this is a Fleetwood Mac reference.
5:11
It's like, no, we want it to be confusing, and of course there's little Fleetwood bits here and there, but then we want to like mix that with some whatever Georgia Satellites and get a little muddy, and you know >> Yeah. >> ride the line. >> Yeah.
5:28
It's the the thin line is the most fun line.
5:32
>> Yeah, and then and then during that process I came up with this like idea to have a character to represent both of these things.
5:42
And um that's where Chuck came from, and then we became obsessed with Chuck.
5:44
We just we talked about him.
5:47
>> Is it hard for Chuck not to kind of weave his way into your identity a little bit when you playing these long especially as they start to take to the stage? >> That's the thing.
5:56
When I on stage Chuck, that's Chuck.
5:58
Like I'm I'm I'll lean into it.
6:01
I think that's fun to me.
6:03
>> Cuz I feel like Chuck kind of showed up a little bit.
6:07
Your last album is beautiful, man, but it's it's you're finding yourself on that record and and not just as an artist, but as a person again. >> Yeah.
6:14
That was like a first step.
6:16
>> Yeah, going through some tough and you're coming out the side of it and then you know obviously Sally shows up, right?
6:20
Which is this breath of fresh air.
6:21
It's like hey, now you're through the other side of it.
6:22
Let's just show people what the future feels like.
6:26
There's a road There's a road ahead of you with this song.
6:27
That's I feel like Chuck starts to show up a little bit in your social media output, starts to show up a little bit in the way you're moving, the way you're sort of relating to yourself as an artist.
6:35
It's like your identity shifted a little bit around that time. >> I think so.
6:40
Sally like really did something for me. I don't know.
6:43
I learned a way to have fun with music, still tell a story and pull all of my favorite music into something that could possibly played on radio and stuff and to to for the masses to hear it, but like that really inspired me that like little kids are like like it was such a Tom Petty like for kids to know that and understand that and embrace it and for that to become popular to them is it was really cool and that inspired me.
7:20
>> It just felt to me like the world caught up to what fans already knew, which is all the great stories.
7:24
You talked about Charlie at the beginning of this conversation, same thing.
7:26
How about Charlie on breath?
7:27
The rest of the world just figured out what people have been figuring out and already knew for 10 plus years if they're a fan of Charlie's, right? >> Yeah.
7:34
>> It's not like she cracked the code.
7:35
Everyone else has kind of made made up with you with Sally. >> Totally.
7:38
>> Like oh, you've always had this swag, you've always had this charisma, you've always had this ability to write catchy songs.
7:42
Just sometimes it's about timing and placement, right?
7:44
So, what does that taste of success when it finally comes feel like when you know that it's there but it you can't control when it shows up?
7:54
>> I weirdly didn't have any pressure.
8:01
Like if that's the only like I didn't feel pressure somehow and I think I'm not sure why, but I I only felt inspired by that.
8:15
>> Was it a proof of concept in a way? Like, "Oh, >> Yeah. I can do this." >> Exactly.
8:19
I was like, "I can do this."
8:21
And I don't It was cool that people liked it and I was just I I I knew I could do better than that.
8:29
Like I knew that that was not my best song.
8:34
Especially if you like read the lyrics to that bridge.
8:38
It's the It's I'm just going to say I love that song.
8:40
I'm not But like it's lyrically the dumbest song.
8:45
>> wrong with dumb in music. It's dumb. It's beautiful.
8:49
>> It's It's And it that But it taught me.
8:52
I was like, "You don't have to overthink things."
8:56
Like it taught me a lot about like bridges, too.
8:57
And I think you can hear that in the album of of stripping things back in a way and like making it loose.
9:04
It doesn't need to be this huge like >> Because then we have a role to play and hence the guests coming on and the whole Sally dance and everything else.
9:10
All of a sudden it's like you're inviting us into Well, not all of us cuz I didn't get the invite.
9:19
But you're inviting some of us.
9:20
>> [laughter] >> Let's talk about that later.
9:22
>> Because like because what you got to do is you got to see the crowd starting to respond to your music and you know, it's like tell us what to do a little bit.
9:31
It's okay if you tell us what to do a little bit.
9:35
>> Like I was saying with like the bridge, writing that and it was just like a dumb I just didn't overthink it. It was like, whatever.
9:41
And the same thing with like on stage, bringing out Sally's.
9:43
Neither one of those Nothing was like planned in the music or on stage.
9:51
We didn't come up with the Sally ideas like, this is going to be huge.
9:54
It's going to skyrocket the song like before tour, there was no like pep talk about it.
10:00
It was like, we did it once as a joke >> Who was the first? >> It was Jake Shane. Do you know? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:06
>> He was [clears throat] happened to be in Dallas and so we just like brought him on stage.
10:09
And then all of a sudden, we were like, should we just do this with fans every night?
10:13
Like, make it a little Justin Bieber moment.
10:15
So [snorts] again, you can't I think I loved learning that you can't plan anything and some of these things will just fall into place.
10:24
All you can control is the music and how much of yourself you put in it.
10:30
>> And therein lies the lesson, my friends listening around the world.
10:34
You can get to a place where you can let go of the of the illusion of control and lean into the areas uh that give you the most amount of space and freedom, then good things come.
10:46
>> I hope other people can learn from from the Sally.
10:49
>> It's not just Sally though, mate.
10:49
I mean, we we joke we joke about the importance of Sally and not joke about it, but um it's just another step in the many that you'd already taken to get to that point and that it just showed you there were more to take and now you don't have to stop.
11:02
This is I just see this album as the first of another 20, you know?
11:04
It's like, let's call let's get the album 20 with you, you know?
11:07
I say it's my favorite artist all the time.
11:09
Like, let's get to album 20, right?
11:10
It's just it's just not stop cuz why would you?
11:12
I mean, it's kind of like so much fun making this record.
11:15
I feel like your record collection and the people you worked with's record collection played a big part in this in a cool way.
11:20
That's not often the case.
11:22
Often people try to reject that, but no, I feel like you leaned in.
11:25
Like, you were listening to things and figuring it out.
11:29
>> It makes me It makes me very excited for album 20 cuz I'm learning so much every time I do this.
11:36
Even like the deluxe of Kansas anymore, I waited like 4 months and learned a lot in that 4 months and then we started the deluxe.
11:44
It's and we had some time.
11:46
I had like whatever, 6 months before I started this album if that and had time to like plan this out to a T.
11:53
I I spend a lot of time on online just trying to like entertain people and like push my music and whatever.
12:06
I don't think I talk about how much I care about the music and I don't think anyone even my number one top 1% listeners like know how any of this music gets made cuz I don't talk about it.
12:20
>> That's why we're here. >> I care so much.
12:21
Like before we started, I made I made a mood board of like feelings and how I want to look and like what I want to wear and and settings and music video ideas and things like that and then I made like a playlist um of that was organized of like drum sounds I want to take and all the keys stuff from like the yacht rock stuff we've talked about and >> Yeah.
12:52
>> and pulling in all these references and like old underground kind of like country rock dudes that didn't fully taking all these things and it was thought out and then I got Mason Stoops and Taylor Maco who I think people probably know from like the Ryan Beatty and Lizzy McAlpine world.
13:15
And they hadn't fully done they hadn't produced an album yet.
13:17
And so I was like, you guys are producers, you're not session players.
13:22
Like you have the knowledge of all these references I want.
13:28
Let's just do this together.
13:28
Um and it was at a time when Sally had come out and my label was like, "You want the big dogs?
13:35
Like, let's get sessions with these like you know, this is your chance to have those like huge producers in the room."
13:42
And I was like, I had to fight it for a little bit and convince them and I'm glad I did because those two boys and everyone else that helped on the record, um like did it perfectly.
13:55
>> What were you looking for in in not acknowledging that opportunity and choosing to be in a room with brilliant players but untested producers?
14:04
What was that How was that serving you? Not them.
14:10
>> I just I >> Well, the label but you.
14:12
>> I got to like trust my gut this time and I I knew I knew those boys cuz they'd come in and done like little things as session players on Kansas Anymore and I watched them and listened to them talk about references and how they would like talk
14:30
about little guitar parts and stuff and I just knew they could do it and I knew they hadn't been tapped for this type of like upbeat I wanted to see what they could do with pop music cuz that's so interesting to me. I think
14:42
I think they've nailed the like slower acoustic stuff with with Ryan and Lizzie and it's amazing. It's beautiful.
14:50
But I there was this like untapped thing with the two of them for pop music and I and they were so down and it was just so fun. We started every day.
15:01
We did this thing called stations and we'd all sit at our stations in the room and we'd be mic'd up and we would just jam and find things and um >> Is that how songs are written or was it more of a warm-up?
15:17
>> Sometimes it was that.
15:17
Sometimes it was like, "I don't I didn't bring in a song that day."
15:21
And so I was like, "Can we just Can we just like jam and find something?"
15:27
>> What came out of that on the album? The jams. >> Um Good Thing. Yeah, it was a jam. kidding me? That one is a jam?
15:35
>> And I had I saw sitting stations and I was like I didn't even have a prompt or anything.
15:44
I think they literally just started playing and then we were like, "Wait, this is kind of like got like a Willie vibe to it." >> Yeah.
15:50
>> But also this like Charles Rich thing and >> Are you midway through the album when you're making this one, this song?
15:54
>> That one was uh >> See, you guys are real ones, you see?
15:57
Cuz they they know what you've got in the can and they're like, "We need a big one in the middle."
16:01
>> That was >> I guarantee if you really put them through their paces, if you haven't already, they probably had a bit of a chat before you came in that day. Probably.
16:08
And they went, "You know what?
16:09
We probably need a big one." >> Yeah. >> In the middle. >> For sure.
16:15
>> Let's see if it catches. So, I don't know, man. What are we doing? Let's just make this up.
16:18
Should we just like >> Yeah.
16:23
>> I'm just making it up.
16:23
And then they're in there an hour before you came in like, "Just get this sorted."
16:29
>> That's a very Mason thing to do and that's probably what happened. >> on. Get your game face on.
16:31
This guy's not going to take it if he thinks we wrote it.
16:35
>> They had their like They were they were like, "I have ideas too."
16:37
And so sometimes I would bring in a song >> Yeah.
16:42
>> or a fraction of a song and then we would jam to figure it out or sometimes they'd be like, "Hey, I have nothing."
16:50
But I have things I want to talk about and so like Good Thing, I wrote that and we did that really quick.
16:54
Um I wrote that while we were just jamming in like an hour.
17:00
>> The turnaround, man, when you get to it and you finally deliver the line, right?
17:03
It's classic country move, you know, in particular, you know, I mean, all songs, but in country music in particular, you know, the name >> a turnaround.
17:09
>> of the song must land at that moment in time and tie it together. That's the whole point.
17:13
If it doesn't, get the out of here. Don't come back. Right? That is it.
17:18
>> No matter what you you can put all the punch lines you want leading up to it, but if you don't get to good thing the right way, we're cooked. >> Yeah, 100%.
17:25
>> I'm christianing everything.
17:25
Do I close the door or let you in?
17:27
But to my surprise, it's a good thing. >> Mhm. >> Landed it. >> Yeah.
17:35
it must have been a good day when you actually cuz if that one came out of a jam, I can imagine even when you you were done kind of getting the words in place, you listen back to it, you're probably listening back as a fan. >> Yeah. >> a creator.
17:46
>> It was dude, it was like that it felt like listening to a cover of a song that existed. Which I love. >> yours.
17:56
>> Yeah, and that that felt really good. Like I don't know.
18:00
I I stream the out of that song and it's not even out yet. >> I'm not surprised.
18:04
Like it's a I think I put on that text to a life changer, you know, but and you could take that personally, but I actually mean for all of us as well.
18:10
That's a song that will change people's lives.
18:12
You'll hear it and it will become the song that that that you know, soundtracks a really important moment in people's lives when they had a really special relationship in their life, you know.
18:20
Um, could last forever, could last a month, but it was a good thing.
18:24
>> That meant a lot that that was the one that you you chose.
18:27
>> There's a few on there, bro.
18:29
I feel like the second half of the album is a this you snuck some real ones in there.
18:33
And service receipts is like there's some what album songs that are like serious.
18:38
Service receipts, uh, wedding, uh, um, a stain.
18:44
In fact, that one two three punch is pretty strong.
18:47
>> Putting stain there to me was like I needed like comedic relief a little bit almost. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:53
>> That's a pretty silly song.
18:55
Um, maybe if you read it off of a >> I don't know if it's silly to me.
18:59
>> paper, but >> [gasps] >> it's not, but >> Honeydew's a real one, but then I think it's I don't know, man. I I love stain. >> Really? >> Yeah, I love it.
19:07
>> I'm very curious how people will how people will take that one. I don't know. I I love >> Oh, no.
19:13
You're not going to play that one live. I can tell already.
19:16
>> It >> [laughter] >> Oh, no. That's so disappointing.
19:20
>> No, I You know I will.
19:22
It's It's on this >> Justice for Stain. >> Already. I I will. I will.
19:27
>> You've lied to me before.
19:29
So, I know what this looks like.
19:32
>> [laughter] >> Um I will play it live. I'll just say that. >> What? This is awful.
19:36
>> Will it be on the set list every night? No. I'll be honest with you.
19:40
But, also like watch that be the biggest song. So, you never know.
19:43
>> Nice little Easter egg thrown in there as well.
19:45
You're in your change your set list up every night era.
19:46
About to launch into that.
19:48
>> Yeah, now we have enough songs that I love to play. >> it up.
19:52
>> We're going to do little surprise songs. I know people love that. So. >> Really? >> Yeah.
19:56
>> You think you've got enough songs to surprise people? >> Yeah.
19:59
>> I mean, there's a difference between changing your set list up and being like, "Surprise!"
20:01
I mean, you're [laughter] getting a few albums in. Right. You're not Pearl Jam.
20:04
It's not like, "Holy They haven't played that one since 1991." >> Right. >> Surprise!
20:11
>> No, I learned it from Gracie though.
20:11
She just like She has a On tour, she'll do like >> She has even less. >> [laughter] >> I know. Well, does she?
20:19
I guess we have kind of the same >> Almost. >> Yeah. I don't know. >> Yeah.
20:23
It's just a way of parity. >> Anyway, I digress. She would do what?
20:26
>> She just has like a surprise song like a slot on her set list that every night >> It's a different one every night. >> changes. >> Yeah. And Taylor does that. I think >> Yeah. >> Taylor, Gracie. >> Okay.
20:36
>> And someone the same person.
20:38
>> Taylor, Gracie, Tucker. >> Same person. >> Why not?
20:41
Coming from the same place.
20:42
Wanting to write big tunes that change people's lives, man.
20:44
And you done it for sure.
20:46
>> [snorts] >> Um we have Tucker a role model.
20:46
Chuck Timely is not the human, but he is definitely the conduit for this wonderful body of work.
20:51
Um a lot of swagger, a lot of love.
20:54
Um little Huey Lewis thrown in there. Joy, without a doubt.
20:56
I feel like Joy came out in the in the in the first two weeks of MTV. >> I love that. I love [laughter] that.
21:05
>> It's like And people think of back to like the first month MTV was on the air.
21:09
That was one of the songs that was programmed during that time. >> That's really cool. I love that.
21:14
>> It's actually it's a really brilliant piece of writing that's kind of that's being distracted by the fun of the song. >> I know.
21:21
I I didn't know if it would get lost on people um kind of what it was about.
21:27
>> Well, tell the people.
21:28
>> I saw I saw a comment on the music video and I think they like kind of described it best.
21:33
I can't remember exactly what they said but they were like damn if this is like a metaphor for losing like the child the childhood joy and like innocence as you're growing older then this is like really heartbreaking.
21:50
I was like that kind of is what it's about.
21:52
It's just like personifying joy and as this person who got away from me and I you're just trying to bring it back in any way you can. >> Interesting. What do you miss? >> I don't know.
22:03
I I miss the the like simple life um of living at home and like the only thing you really like worry about is what your friends are doing and like >> Mhm. That's epic. >> I don't know.
22:27
I had a I had a beautiful >> I remember that time clearly, too.
22:31
>> Yeah, I had a beautiful like very cliche uh childhood coming out of me and I think I I miss that a lot but yeah.
22:41
And also like writing this over the course of this like two-year period of of being single and also like navigating this the Sally thing and my a new success for me and you start to feel you start to feel like separated from the people that matter most in your life. >> Mhm.
23:06
>> And that is something that I am >> Mhm.
23:09
>> now really struggling with and you'll be happy to hear I just started therapy for the first time >> Happy for you.
23:18
>> [laughter] >> in my life because that is something I'm struggling with.
23:22
I think this career and now the success that I'm seeing there's just moments that make me feel separate from everyone else [snorts] in my life.
23:34
>> Let me tell you something.
23:35
This is not going to help, but it may in the short term, but in the medium to long term I think it might. It is the sacrifice. >> Yeah.
23:43
>> It is the sacrifice that we all make.
23:46
As a circle of loved ones. >> Yeah.
23:49
>> who love you best have to let you go. But you have to go. And it sucks.
23:54
And it's and I I I love it when families are able to stay together. Love it.
24:00
I love being around big families. I love >> Me too.
24:02
>> in particular when we'll go around to what like one of my son's friends' houses and they're a big family and like there's only four of us, but there's 40 of them and we're welcome in.
24:09
I just love that dynamic. >> I do too, man.
24:12
Like I >> I don't really have that, but I love to be around it now, you know.
24:16
>> I don't I don't either.
24:16
Like >> I had it, but I didn't experience it like that.
24:21
>> No, and I envy that big time and I and I I see him.
24:24
I love to be around it cuz like my family is close and I love them and I miss them, but like we're not uh we're not like those families that are like hugging each other and like >> It's okay to be a family of individuals.
24:39
That is kind of I get that. >> I mean, it's genetic.
24:41
My family like we are all very >> Selfish and it's totally fine.
24:47
>> [laughter] >> I was about to agree with you.
24:52
And but like we're all very um like kind of avoidant and and uh I don't know.
25:01
Independent in our own ways. >> Yeah.
25:03
>> And and I think again, it's like it's it's I want to talk to them and be in touch and like be like those families that we're talking about, but also I don't >> You're on an >> If this is what I'm doing every day, I don't want to be like, "Yeah, I was on a radio show today."
25:19
And it's like it feels shitty. I don't know.
25:23
>> Not if you told somebody.
25:25
>> Well, now I do and they get paid for it.
25:27
>> promotion, you know what I mean?
25:29
Can't leave it up to me to do it the whole time.
25:31
>> I literally wish you were a therapist.
25:31
I I feel like like I would I would book you.
25:36
>> Did you like single life? Was it good for you? >> There's parts I love.
25:40
Um you learn a lot from it, I think. >> Learn to be alone?
25:45
>> I have I That I've been doing, but before before But like I think uh There's beautiful parts, except I think some of those like beautiful parts are rooted in um some like selfish things.
26:01
Like it's just really easy to not have to worry about anyone else in your life. >> Yeah.
26:10
>> Um but it's >> It doesn't take work.
26:12
>> No, and it's so easy and it's But it can only last so long and it only takes you so far and uh it's not sustainable.
26:22
>> Well, yeah, the older you get it kicks your ass. >> Yeah.
26:25
>> Totally kicks your ass because you know, the growth isn't there, man.
26:26
You just end up kind of like You just end up in a loop.
26:30
>> It's hard and like when you're young younger you have friends and you can But I imagine like >> [sighs] >> Yeah, I I had a lot of questions in that time and I think I put them all onto the album, but like >> Mhm.
26:47
>> There's definitely There were definitely a lot of questions and like Does love come around or does do I need to come around to it?
26:55
And >> Well, it's kind of interesting because, you know, um, the mantra at the beginning of the of the song Chuck's >> Chuck's mantra.
27:04
>> mantra You know, you could sit there and listen to it for the first time and think like, "Oh, what a beautiful, you know, calling out for the universe to try to bring you something great."
27:13
But it's quite narcissistic.
27:14
It's like, "I deserve something great and time does not work for me."
27:19
And it's it's almost quite tantrum in a beautiful way.
27:22
>> It is, but I've also I've never written in that way of like That was I was literally like me trying to like >> It's quite desperate.
27:32
>> I think I was very desperate.
27:33
I think it's pathetic in a way, but it's like [laughter] >> In a beautiful way, yeah, it is.
27:40
>> I've never written like that and I remember I I wrote that weirdly.
27:45
I was like walking around in Miami, um, and I did the voice memo of it.
27:47
And then um brought it back to the studio and told Taylor to like get on the ace tone and and just like let me do it once and then I don't know chords, so just play what you think would work under this and then that is what uh, came of it, but it was literally I think me like for the first time in my life trying to talk to the universe.
28:14
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, just being like, "What does it take?" >> Yeah.
28:17
>> And that's what I mean.
28:17
It's it's like that moment in life where you're just like it's sort of frustrated and and you're at the most frustrated you can be and the most open you can be in equal measure.
28:26
It's like this paradox of just like, "I've had it." >> Mhm. >> I'll take anything. >> Yeah.
28:32
But also and then I was I thinking ahead, too.
28:34
I was like, "This is going to be amazing like forcing people to sing this every night."
28:40
Like it's how we open the show now and >> it has to be. >> And it's so cool.
28:45
Like those people are going to be saying those words. >> It's beautiful. >> Also to the universe.
28:49
Like, it's it's going to be something that I'm really looking forward to.
28:52
Like, starting a show on that note is going to be really cool.
28:56
>> Wow, so cool that you've reached that point now where you realize there's something way bigger than just you on your own sitting in your apartment or your house just doing what is come most comfortable for you and that the universe is like there's so much more for you out there in LA. >> Yeah. >> It's pretty amazing. >> It's cool. Growth.
29:11
>> It's called growth, my man. >> Yeah.
29:13
>> The album is absolutely full of it.
29:13
It's the community work, too.
29:14
There's a lot of background singers, a lot of people joining in.
29:17
There's like some some really great kind of um sort of communal moments on the record. Who who rolled through? Who's singing on there?
29:24
Who the is on Love Are You?
29:26
Is that Is that Is that D?
29:29
>> [laughter] >> Well, don't listen to Can we not pretend it's so obviously her?
29:30
She's not masking her voice and she's got a really recognizable voice. Sorry, D.
29:35
I know you're trying to be all like don't >> DJ Khaled.
29:39
>> DJ don't make it a DJ Oda. >> No, it's DJ Khaled.
29:43
>> Oh, this is so ridiculous. I'm sorry.
29:43
I know that this is a great cat and mouse game going on and long may it continue cuz you guys are cheeky as both of you individually, [laughter] let alone together.
29:52
But, it's so obviously her.
29:54
Can we just I'm not having I'm not having it.
29:57
>> It's DJ Khaled and um yes, that's his voice.
30:01
>> You're the worst music, Tucker. You're the worst.
30:04
>> [laughter] >> Let's transition cuz I do have a funny story about that song.
30:10
>> Was that your transition?
30:10
You've got work to do, bro. You're lucky I like you. >> Where's the button?
30:15
>> But, I need one of those buttons. No, you don't get that.
30:17
>> Just Just >> Olivia Rodrigo, you are not. She can transition. hell, man. >> her PR training. >> Woah! >> Yeah.
30:25
>> At the end of it, she was like, "You're not going to get me." I'm like, "Not yet." Holy >> PR training. Grace is good, too.
30:29
Those two They're like >> By the way, this better be a really good story >> [laughter] >> cuz if it's not >> Okay.
30:38
Well, that was one of those songs. >> Sorry, D.
30:42
>> I wrote those verses on a guitar Um over some like boring chords, brought it to them, and it was like, "We need something that swings like this. We need this. Help make it." And so again, we jammed. We found it. >> is not good. It's Dakota on the song. >> I am not done.
31:00
>> [laughter] >> And um And when we got to the end, I was like, "This feels like a drunk like I want it to feel drunk a little bit.
31:12
I want the song to feel drunk." And so we got yeah.
31:18
And so we were like, "We need a bachelorette party of women in here to like do the backing vocals."
31:24
And so we called It wasn't literally a We weren't in Nashville, unfortunately, but we called 10 of our female friends, a few of which were singers. >> This needs work.
31:38
>> And >> [laughter] >> and they all came in, and we just had a party. >> Uh-huh.
31:42
>> And we just loosely sang the whatever, man. It's not a good story. it. >> What a transition.
31:52
What a crazy thing to happen in Nashville where you weren't.
31:55
>> Should have made something up.
31:57
>> Yeah, you should [laughter] have.
31:59
By the way, man, I am happy to be your practice run. Needs work.
32:03
>> We invited a bachelorette party to the studio where we and we were in Nashville.
32:07
And they got hit by a bus, dude.
32:07
Walking into the studio, six of them passed away.
32:15
>> you know what would be really funny one night?
32:16
>> Unfortunately, four of them >> do for Tucker on his studio's birthday is force him into an improv club and watch him just crash [clears throat] [snorts] out terribly.
32:26
>> [laughter] >> Immediately. Just crash out. I do love that song.
32:30
Uh that was a good transition. >> Thanks. How are you? >> Yeah. I do love that song.
32:34
I I love how I love how cheeky it is with the title and the way you lean into like the looseness of it and the drunkenness of it. And yeah, it's cool.
32:43
It's There's really great innovative, interesting love songs on here.
32:50
That's what's cool about it.
32:50
It's really hard to write those songs of finding love and freedom in love and make it interesting.
32:56
>> The hardest thing to do. >> So hard. Misery comes easy. >> Yeah. >> In song. Compared to love.
33:03
>> I don't think you should ever We've I feel like we had talked about this last time when I did an interview with you, but I was like, I don't think you should ever put yourself through something on purpose to make art.
33:11
Obviously, that's like >> Nobody wants that.
33:13
>> But I do think love songs born from that like um like drunkenly dating >> Mhm.
33:26
>> scene are interesting cuz you're not comfortable yet.
33:31
You're not fully comfortable and there's I think it that helped me.
33:34
There's like a lot of questions, but you can still have these like little moments of maybe like good thing.
33:41
It's like this moment along this journey where I was like, "Oh, maybe I found love."
33:48
And then like the next song, you're like, "Oh, maybe I didn't."
33:49
But it's I like the ups and downs of that and how you can make love songs from from what could be a one-night >> They just start. It's got to start.
34:00
They They all start with one night.
34:04
>> They all start that way.
34:05
>> You don't start on night nine.
34:07
>> How cool that would be.
34:09
>> [laughter] >> Just Just to fast-forward [clears throat] through all the awful awkward The awful awkward is the point. >> Yeah. Totally.
34:17
>> That's when you show your real self.
34:19
That's how you actually learn that it's the right thing because you're unaf- You're both unafraid to be that way with each other. That's cool.
34:26
Otherwise, you're just pretending the whole time.
34:28
Who wants to like pretend you don't in the morning?
34:31
It's like >> Oh my god, I was just talking about that yesterday.
34:35
>> Can you imagine having to like >> With Mason.
34:37
>> Pretend that doesn't happen. Like, "Where were you?"
34:39
"Oh, I was just taking calls."
34:40
Like >> [laughter] >> I was just talking about this with Mason yesterday.
34:45
>> It's like >> Cuz one of them moved in with their girlfriend and that was my question.
34:49
[laughter] >> That's cuz you're figuring this cuz that's therapy for you.
34:52
That was an expensive question.
34:53
[laughter] >> That's so funny. >> Harmony, man. >> Yes.
34:59
>> It's It's such a beautiful realization to me, that song, of um what you go through to learn something profound.
35:07
And that it can just be a flash of inspiration can make you realize that you're there.
35:11
That all the things that were painful and now turned into this this kind of passport to something else. Does that make sense? >> Mhm. Totally.
35:18
And I didn't want to end this album with like a fully happy ending.
35:28
Um I didn't want to like wrap up the mantra in a way.
35:31
Like I and to that point like I changed a a lyric in like a small way in the last chorus of like maybe this is what love looks like.
35:41
>> maybe's the key word here, right?
35:41
Like if you go, "This is what love looks like.
35:44
It took forever, but now I see it's harmony."
35:46
Well, we're off to the races.
35:48
Maybe I Oh, that changes everything.
35:51
>> Well, I didn't want to close it up.
35:53
>> [clears throat] >> Um did that with Candace anyway, too.
35:54
I think leaving things open-ended is is more interesting to me cuz I don't could be in the best I don't know.
36:02
That's just how my brain works.
36:03
>> Is it a bit of Is it Is it a kind of byproduct of a sort of obsessive-compulsive almost disorder?
36:09
I know I have this where language If I say something that I feel is put out into the universe, if I'm a harsh about something, or I use a word that I think isn't the right word, sometimes I actually have to walk back.
36:20
>> want to jinx yourself.
36:21
>> I just Yeah, I don't want to put it out there. >> Yeah.
36:23
>> I'll be like, "That's too harsh."
36:23
And my wife's gotten used to it now.
36:25
She's like, "Oh my god, he's talking to the universe again.
36:27
He's trying to pull back his words, you know."
36:30
>> [laughter] >> Strange guy. >> Yeah. Do you have crystals?
36:33
>> We got a few in the house, yeah.
36:35
I'm learning about that side of it. >> Are you? >> Yeah. Well, you went to it? >> No.
36:40
But >> [laughter] >> But I'm surrounded by people who are though.
36:47
And I I just always, you know, to me it's a rock, but I'm curious what you >> It's not just a rock.
36:51
Have you looked at a crystal truly?
36:54
>> I know it's beautiful, right?
36:56
>> can stare You can stare into that thing and never see through the Never see as far as it goes.
37:01
>> Yeah, it's But you can also skip it across a pond.
37:03
Like, you know what I mean?
37:05
>> Skip a crystal across a pond? You cherish that thing. You Skip a stone.
37:09
>> But what do you do with it? Are you rubbing it?
37:10
Or are you sleeping next to it? Are you charging it? >> Sleeping next to it? >> I don't know. People do it.
37:15
>> Charging [laughter] it?
37:17
>> People do these things. I'm telling you. They do.
37:19
They put it out in the moon or something.
37:21
>> Um the chords on Harmony are beautiful as well.
37:23
The only bummer about Harmony is it's not the best harmonies on the record. It's an irony in there. >> Right.
37:27
Um Wait, who do you hear production-wise?
37:33
>> Across the whole album, it changes up. All that.
37:35
>> On Harmony, who's like the first artist that you would go to?
37:38
>> It's really hard, man, because I'm sort of I'm sort of in this kind of weird sort of Don Henley space, but then I'm also in this Sade space.
37:43
And I'm also like I'm just The drums are a little bit too hard for Sade, but then they had They had tough drums. I don't know.
37:51
Is it a little bit Toto's like Toto's Is it Toto screwed? >> I love it.
37:56
>> [laughter] >> It was like a big >> on a little bit of syrup?
37:59
>> That was our most That was like our hardest nod to Hornsby.
38:03
>> Yeah, it's definitely Hornsby.
38:03
I >> [clears throat] >> agree with you. It is Hornsby.
38:07
>> But I found out like later into the album that that is like Taylor's hero.
38:13
And um he never talked about that, but I did looking back realize every time he'd walk in the studio, he'd start playing.
38:20
Um That's just the way it is. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah.
38:24
You know how hard it is to write a song about the state of the world?
38:29
It's really hard to do that and have it last 50 years.
38:32
>> Also, make it like cool, like that song. Like I love that song.
38:36
>> All those songs, if you're not careful, unless it's like Ohio, The Way It Is, there's like there's a playlist of songs that do not get the eye roll.
38:43
But eventually, even with the best of intentions, those songs just like will get and some generation be like >> I know. >> You know. Yeah, them. >> But we love Hornsby.
38:51
That was a That was a big Hornsby nod at the end, and um I became obsessed with him when Taylor brought that up.
39:01
>> Vocally for me, really interesting run of performances as well, like like not not a singularity in terms of vocal on this album.
39:08
Like I want to make that really clear for people from my perspective that I think it's you performed these songs beautifully and you've really honored every one of them as well.
39:17
It's not like you've fallen into the same vocal trap.
39:20
>> Yeah, they helped me with that.
39:20
Mason and Taylor both helped me a lot of like really carefully caring about key and like what where my voice belongs.
39:29
Um, yeah, cuz I'm not that smart with those things and like >> [sighs] >> that's where they really they fill in a lot of my gaps of like knowledge.
39:39
They they Yes, they're trained, but also like they have the knowledge.
39:45
They know the history of of of these artists [snorts] and everything and >> helped you find your sweet spot, which all great all great singers eventually find, and then it's like I can go here, I can go there, I can go anywhere, but I got to know where my sweet spot is. Yeah.
39:59
I feel like your sweet spot is like Jackson Browne. >> I Exactly.
40:04
>> That is like your sweet spot.
40:04
Like that that kind of like it's sort of raw, but it's emotional, but it's sweet, but it's kind of heavy.
40:12
It's lots of paradox going on in his music.
40:15
>> Mason's going to watch this with a big smile right now.
40:16
Um but we love we love Jackson Browne and reference the out of him and um Mason also like toured with him for a while and >> What? In his band?
40:27
>> and got to like learn a lot.
40:29
>> Did you know that before you got to work with Mason?
40:30
Did you find that out after the fact? >> I knew.
40:33
>> So it's all coming to the surface now that there was a master plan.
40:39
>> Um yeah, Jackson is is all time.
40:42
Also happened to be like my mom that's her number one artist.
40:47
>> Then must she must love this song.
40:49
>> Since I was born and she hasn't heard it yet, but she will.
40:55
>> Were you about to sneeze?
40:57
>> I was about to sneeze with disgust. PROTEST SNEEZE. GOD YOU. WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
41:05
>> THAT MY mom hasn't heard it? >> Come on. >> I know.
41:08
That's the same thing with you. >> No mom, no music.
41:11
>> She likes the singles. She loved that.
41:13
>> But does she cuz she listens to the radio? That's big of you.
41:16
>> [laughter] >> I don't know it's on the radio, man. >> Oh yes, you are.
41:19
Tell me how High Hopes 3000 ain't carving it up out there in >> I don't know. I haven't heard nothing.
41:26
Not a big radio guy, see?
41:28
I like to be kind of >> Is there a song on here uh that you don't like?
41:31
[laughter] >> That's a great question.
41:36
What's your least favorite song on the >> least favorite song? it.
41:37
What's your least favorite song on the album right now?
41:41
>> If I had to pick a least favorite >> [laughter] >> No, I can't do that. I don't want to do that.
41:47
>> It was so good though for a second it was almost going to happen. >> I know.
41:49
>> [laughter] >> Should I tell you mine?
41:51
>> Yeah, tell me tell me yours. I am curious.
41:54
>> Uh you're not going to like the answer.
41:56
>> Tell me tell me tell me.
41:57
>> No, cuz it serves a perfect purpose. >> Can I guess? Would it be the mantra? >> No, but you're close. >> High Hopes?
42:04
>> Yeah, it's like it's I think it does a beautiful job and it's done its job.
42:06
But it's actually good news cuz honestly from the second the next one starts is it only a song?
42:12
Sometimes you only get a song?
42:14
>> Yeah, song is song is all you get. >> Song is all you get?
42:16
I'm like, oh this is so going to be so much fun. >> No worries.
42:21
>> So it's yeah, it sets it up beautifully.
42:22
>> I mean that's kind of what singles used to be.
42:23
They used to be these things that went out there, grabbed people's attention, did their job, the party you know, party favor. >> I feel that.
42:31
>> [laughter] >> You know. I I feel that.
42:32
I I don't I liked starting with a house because I didn't think it was the best song in the album. >> Yeah, there you go.
42:40
>> But that was like exciting to me.
42:42
>> I mean good thing, waiting bone out of the park, yeah. Joy out of the park. Now what? Now touring. >> Now touring. >> Yeah. >> Touring. >> Touring, mate.
42:54
It's going to be really fun.
42:54
I mean you've got like you said, you got more songs and this album is going to scream itself into into life.
42:59
>> More songs, more room on stage to play around with.
43:04
>> Are the guys coming out to play with you?
43:05
>> They might for some shows.
43:05
Uh Um They scare me though cuz they they're like they're like I said, trained.
43:14
So they like to kind of do it on the fly rather than rehearse. >> Right, right, right.
43:21
>> And it scares me too much, but I'm sure they'll come out for the LA shows and we'll like have them out on stage and and they'll play.
43:26
They would They would love that.
43:28
>> And the whole role model of it all you seem super dialed in and you know who you are as an artist in 2026.
43:33
Like it feels very complete right now just in this present moment. How's Taco though?
43:41
How how is the human being behind all of this? >> He's good. I told you you know.
43:45
I don't know why I just said he. I am good.
43:49
>> No, I I third personed you so you can it's totally valid to respond in kind.
43:52
>> Watch me by the end of this album cycle be like a full identity crisis. >> Yeah. >> Um I said it before.
43:57
Um there's things I'm struggling with.
44:01
>> Do you know what the root of that is?
44:03
>> No, that's what I'm trying to figure out.
44:04
Paying And guy to help me figure out, yeah, >> Yeah, yeah.
44:06
I think aside from that, it feels I do feel like I know who I am now as an artist and I understand the role model of it all and I feel very like sunk into that.
44:21
And it feels cool that um now I know how to like build a world around it.
44:28
Like and it's [snorts] not just me, it's them the lovely ladies and like everyone on my team.
44:35
Like I think we're really good now at building this world around the name um for people to like come into and immerse and it's like we wanted this to feel like an immersive album rollout and >> And it's more fun, huh? >> Yeah. >> It's more fun. >> It's more fun >> it.
44:55
>> when there's like things to do and pages to like layers to peel back and I think that all is a lot easier when you know who you are as an artist and when you feel like you've found yourself.
45:10
And so um that that feels really good.
45:13
And I have a confidence that um I did not have before. Can you do the bomb?