0:00
I walk down the street and it's just like readings by Wanda.
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0:03
>> Do you ever see the ones on like Tik Tok when you go on the live stuff and it's like some with the thing that goes like this and she's like if your birthday is this, he's coming back.
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He'll come back to you, girl.
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And me, like definitely a lesbian.
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I'm like, oh my god, he's coming back.
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I'm like, holy he's on his he missed me.
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Mind you, she's talking about Jesus.
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But I'm like, oh my god, my ex.
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And like it's I fall for that Crazy.
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[Music] It's great to see you.
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I changed shirts for you. I hope you like that.
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>> I genuinely when I came in, thought on my head. >> Good shirt.
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>> Yeah, I changed for you. >> Good shirt.
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>> I was wearing a white t-shirt.
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I It was clean and I was like, you know what?
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I'm going to bring a little summer to the occasion. >> Love it. >> Great t-shirt. >> Love it.
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>> And also, you always >> Well, not always.
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The last FaceTime we did, you just looked like it was like you literally just like woken up.
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Interestingly enough, I had >> Yes. No.
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And I also I saw comments under that video that were like, "Oh my god, this girl's drunk."
1:01
And I was like, "First of all, it was 9:00 a. m. you guys."
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>> Second of all, kind of. >> Second of all, a bit. >> Yeah.
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>> You know, I do slur my words when I'm really tired. >> Missed you. Good to see you. >> Miss you. Good to see you. >> Thanks.
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Thanks for coming in and hanging out.
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I always really love seeing you and talking with you and um >> and I do it anyway with or without music, you know, just cuz I love your take on life and I like the way you move and you're an honest, unfiltered, caring human being.
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You're a weird combination between hard ass and empath. >> Thank you. Thank you. That's Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. No, you're right. 100%.
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>> And last conversation we had, whenever that was maybe a year or two ago, was one of my favorites.
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So, you're back with a new album. Congrats, by the way.
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We don't take that for granted. >> I know. Thanks. But me either. >> Yeah. >> Takes a long time. >> Takes a long time.
1:40
It sounds like you came out of the last experience needing some space.
1:44
That's the vibe I get from the record and also a little bit of what I'm picking up from some of the surrounding >> Wait, really? >> info. >> You think? No, 100%. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. No.
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>> Forgot how good your straight face is. terror.
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That was just terrifying for >> like Wait, you think so? No. Um Yeah. 100%. I was so strung out.
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I was like, I need everybody to get the away from me. >> Yeah.
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>> Like now, like quickly um with with haste. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
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I was I was way strung out and I was taking advice from way too many people who don't actually make music.
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So, I was like, "Hang on, why the am I listening to y'all?"
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and all with great intentions, but it doesn't change the fact that actually at the end of the day, I've got to live with these decisions. >> 100%. 100%.
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My and and I like this in a lot of ways.
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But I think like my job becomes a playground for a lot of other people because it is really fun. It's really fun.
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Like I get to do a bunch of crazy Like I get to go on like trips and like bring my friends and I get to like go and like, you know, do these events and like play my music and go and play shows and like that's really fun to attend and I appreciate that.
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And I appreciate that I have people pulling up for me, but I also like was like, damn, this is just a playground for everybody else and I'm sad. >> Yeah.
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>> So, I was like, y'all >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Read the room. Read the room. Read the room. >> Got to go. >> Yeah.
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That look, if we're all having fun, it's fun.
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If I'm not having fun, maybe have a little less fun. >> Yeah.
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If I'm not having fun, shut the up. >> Just pretend.
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Pretend you're not having fun. Like, how's Oh, man. How's your day?
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Ah, Renee, I'm having a terrible day. >> Of course. >> It's so funny. Really? I'm really homesick.
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And then you leave and it's just like get the drinks in. It's day 38.
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>> I'm like wait commiserate with me for sake.
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>> Please >> commiserate. >> You're right.
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I've never heard anyone put it that way.
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I love it when I hear a new frame framework around this whole crazy experience of being an artist and living your life in private and in public and equal measure.
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And it is it is it's a it's a beautiful ride and it's intoxicating for people.
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Not just for fans, not just for you, but for everybody like a dream. >> Absolutely. Which is great. which is great.
3:43
And also like you I don't know I think you're close with so many artists and an artist yourself.
3:48
It's like equal parts really um self-centered and equal parts like meant to be given and meant to be received and is so much bigger than the artist.
3:59
Like I'm not if if I wanted to >> ball out and live my ideal life >> y >> I'm on a farm. I'm on a farm.
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I'm not talking to any of y'all. You could do it. >> Hell no.
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Because I'm too I'm too neurotic.
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And there's a part of me there's a part of me that loves it.
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But like that like 50/50 is is I don't know.
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You you really do have to be equal parts obsessed with yourself and and ego driven.
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And also the other 50 has to be you have to literally love it so much and understand that it's that it's much bigger than you and that it's much more important than like just yourself.
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So it's like a dichotomy of both.
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So, I get that it's really fun and it's meant to be fun and I'm glad that it makes other people happy or makes other people sad or makes other people pissed.
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>> Makes other people anything. >> Exactly.
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I love that That's the goal. >> Yeah.
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>> But I got to I I had to like get my equilibrium back cuz I was like, >> you need a strong internal voice to do that.
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You need to be able to listen to yourself.
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A lot I've met many many artists that have not listened to themselves or developed an internal voice for 20 years >> and then it's like crash out. >> Like crash out.
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>> So, thank goodness, you know, you listen to yourself.
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What does that voice sound like when you're like, "All right, before I start torching relationships, I need to re like recalibrate where I'm at."
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>> Sorry, I had to move my mic. >> It was clunky. >> No, I know.
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I wasn't a way to do that.
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>> I thought it'd be better.
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You'd think as like a singer I'd be good with moving a mic stand. I'm not.
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I can't even adjust my own. No.
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Yeah, that's what I look like on stage, by the way. >> No, you don't. >> Yeah.
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If you look really close, it's not good for me.
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>> It's hard to see that close when you're so off in the distance.
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>> When you're so far away, you could really get up close, but you can't.
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All my people in the back.
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>> That was like a zoom in slow-mo. You know what I mean?
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>> That was like AI rene. >> How'd you know? Like, oh I'm cooked.
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>> I knew cuz I was just so depressed and I didn't love what I was doing >> when >> um when I was doing festival runs last year.
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So, you were bummed out at Coachella. >> Mad Woo. Gone. Wow. Gone. No life behind the eyes. Nobody's home.
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Literally, nobody's home.
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>> I'm trying to cast my mind back to that performance.
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I was there in the in the crowd um on the Sunday. It was hot.
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>> Oh, >> it was very hot.
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>> Believe you me, I was sweating my ass off. >> You sounded great.
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I mean, it's it's look, this is what's great about getting to know you is the is the person.
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>> The when we meet you, we meet the performer.
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>> We don't know you yet. >> You're a performer.
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You're like, I'm born to do it.
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>> And then over time, you make music, you get to know yourself, you share more of yourself, and it's like, oh we get to know you.
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Then now we're getting to know you. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> I guess I saw a performer on stage that day. Do you?
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Because you showed up, man. You didn't show up. >> It's interesting.
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I feel like for everybody else I really showed up, but for me I just like did not. >> I just did not.
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But also I've I >> I don't know when I like when I was a teenager I was doing like eight shows a week on Broadway.
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So I learned how to just show up even when life on nobody's home, >> right?
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Like also there you don't have a option.
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You don't get to just like take a sick day when you're sick.
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Like they're like you're like vomiting on the floor violently ill and they're like it'd be a really bad look if you didn't pull up. >> I'm like, "Oh, what?"
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So I like I got that muscle for better or for worse.
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And the crazy thing about that muscle is, and this is the intoxicating thing about >> the moment that requires you to get past yourself, >> is that as intimidating that as that is, >> more often than not, when you do it, you're better >> for a while, >> it gets you past yourself long enough >> to either bury it >> or maybe it doesn't come back.
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>> So, it's kind of a two-edged thing, right? >> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> It doesn't mean it's good for you, but but equally it's like >> right help you.
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>> There's also a plus in like, you know, you can get through it and you can get through your commitments cuz also like just cuz I don't want to show up to work doesn't mean that I don't have to show up to work.
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>> That's good parenting right there. You know what I mean?
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That's some good upbringing going on there.
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>> Like have >> bro have nine to fives.
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They don't get to just be like feeling overwhelmed clocking out, you know?
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Like I'm like so I don't get to do that either.
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>> I went and watched the pictures uh the picture of Dorian Gray. Have you seen it?
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>> Sarah Snook in New York. No.
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>> Sarah's not doing Dorian great. You're too busy. >> Oh, the play. >> The play. >> Yeah.
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No, didn't see it, >> dude.
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Dude, >> heard it was amazing. >> Unbelievable.
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But I but I went and watched it and I was like, "Wow, we went to the matinea, which by the way is the great hack of all Broadway.
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Why would you go at night?" >> I know. >> Like that.
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Dinner in a show means the show and then dinner. >> Oh my god. Please.
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And then you're out super late. >> I would hate that. >> Yeah.
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So anyway, I'm at the So I would hate that so bad.
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>> That version of staying out late. >> Yeah. >> It's too structured.
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No, I just I would fall asleep during the show.
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>> What freaked me out was like how do people find the in the like the intensity to be able to come back an hour and a half later and do that again? >> Oh, it's crazy. >> How do you do that? >> It's crazy.
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You don't have an option.
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>> You don't have an option.
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>> You don't have an option.
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You don't have an option.
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A I didn't have an option.
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Um and it's also like it's just it's bigger than you.
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Like I think like when you're in a show there's something that is actually really special and like very like community oriented um or based should I say that's like you are doing it as a group.
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You're doing it as a group.
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So like if if you don't bring 100 then like somebody else has to like subsequent and hit like 150 just to meet you where you're at.
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Which like sometimes if you're close that can happen and that's okay and completely fine.
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But if you constantly decide not to show up and not to bring like at least your best version of 75 that day, then you're doing everybody else a disservice.
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And then you also have to live with that on your psyche, which is just like not >> And guess what?
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You don't get to go to the next town.
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You get to show up to work 3 hours later in the same place. >> Yeah.
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Same place, same outfit, >> same green room, same thing.
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Same same glam, same moldy ass theater.
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>> I don't know how you did it.
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I mean, neither I reckon that's the hardest board to tread in in show business is theater.
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>> To be honest, nothing's harder than this.
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Nothing's harder than this mentally.
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>> This right here, right now.
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>> But listen, this is not that hard.
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>> Nothing's harder than than chatting to you. No. No. No. >> Oh Eco. Eco.
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Oh Oh It's all the whole thing is a fake.
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>> No, it's me Z had an existential crisis. >> Hey, I mean, love it.
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This I'm like seeing myself.
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I'm like that's pretty much what I do every day.
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Um, it's the mental game of this is harder.
10:56
>> Let's really cut to the chase of what people assume that that that life is like for people like you, artists.
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You get to live your dream.
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You get paid to entertain.
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What can you complain about?
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I've been fighting against that kind of um misconception for a long time because I speak to artists all the time so I have an inside track on why it's so hard.
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It's good to add another paragraph to that chapter for you. >> Yeah.
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>> Having done a lot of different elements of show business to get us to talk about this new album and that moment of time where you were really burnt out, the festivals weren't working, bringing it back up to speed, you know what what is the what is the taxing part of this industry?
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>> It's just I I was saying this to somebody yesterday.
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It's just like the the you I at least I don't know maybe this isn't for everybody else and like maybe y'all are whistling Dixie and doing fine. Well, not me.
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>> Not me, I don't have moments of peace. >> Very rarely.
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>> I think you're at constant war with yourself and you're in constant competition with you and like the best version of you or what you think that looks like.
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Like there's the lack of acceptance internally is a mind You are constantly feeling like you need to be doing more, like you need to be working harder, like you are not good enough, like you are just at the mercy of everyone and everything around you. And you are.
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And that's also like kind of the great part of it.
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But like I fell into the constant like nagging voice of this is not enough.
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You're not doing good enough.
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You're not interesting enough.
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You're not, you know, fun enough.
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Like not like just like the like not enough of it all.
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It's interesting cuz I think also like people >> people do a really good job of like masking things in positivity in music or like trying to or being like, "Oh my god, no."
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god, no." like it was like so fantastic and so great and I'm like no it actually wasn't and when you tell me that it was so fantastic and so great I know you're lying and now I don't trust you and now I think you're bullshitting me all the
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time and now I don't even trust myself because I know you're lying to me so I was going crazy cuz I was like >> everybody's yesing me and I don't feel good and no one is acknowledging that I don't feel good and this is wrong like I was like I feel insane and I was going
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insane also so it was like the the tor torture of not only like me not feeling like I was doing enough and and doing good enough and that I just wasn't good enough period coupled with the like rosecolored lenses of everyone around me and it's not that they were
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lying so to speak but I think like everybody just wants to champion you and cheer you on and be like no you got it keep going and I'm like no I'm burnt out and like y'all make my schedule >> and I'm telling you I'm burnt Listen. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, >> I had lost it. >> Yeah. >> I had lost it.
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And I lost all of the good parts of this job that I love and that means everything to me and that's so important to me and that is so much bigger than me.
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It became completely in my head.
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>> There's two things going on that are kind of simultaneously true >> that are sort of at odds with each other.
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One is that you have this incredibly high level of expectation for yourself like like many creative people I know right there's a desire to create to express yourself >> and to and you very very beautiful point that you made about like >> you know um you're constantly competing with your own sense >> of worth >> all the time. >> All the time.
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>> But then over here that can be confused as work ethic. Mhm.
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>> And so people are like, "Oh, she wants to keep going. She wants to work. She wants to be great."
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And what keeps keeps people going is like positive reinforcement.
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And in the middle is this crazy thing that >> no one can others understand in that moment of breakdown, >> which is that your sense of unrealistic self-expectation is not anybody else's >> understanding. >> Yes. >> Or fault even. >> 100%.
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And you are you are completely alone in it.
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>> I don't know what to do with this. >> Right.
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>> But I know it's my job to keep you moving and I don't want you to wake up 6 months when you don't and go, "Damn, why didn't I do that that that and that?"
15:22
So it gets so confusing and so the only thing I know that ever cuts through that is clear communication. >> Absolutely.
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>> So it sounds like that's what you needed to do. >> Yeah.
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And I also think I needed to like clearly communicate with myself.
15:32
Like I was just so damn bad. I was just so damn bad. I'm so sorry, dude.
15:40
We didn't mean I mean we didn't know.
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I mean, fans didn't know.
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None of us really knew, you know.
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I mean, your crew would have known, but we didn't know.
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I mean, we thought like, you know, >> cuz you do such a good job of bringing yourself >> even today, right, where you've brought real truth to this room and I really appreciate it.
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>> You know, you bring yourself like you are an unapologetically yourself person. Yeah.
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>> So, it's hard to know >> and why would we that you're going through that? It's brutal. >> Of course. Of course.
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And also like you know is It's not ever something that like can be just like magically like fixed easily.
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Like I didn't even know what to do.
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I didn't even know what to do.
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Also like when your like career grows at a certain rate like things start like falling by the wayside and then you realize that like those tiny things are actually really important and like make like a big difference.
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Just even like in logistics like I like things were driving me mad.
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things were driving me mad logistically that like it just you're going to lose things, you're going to make mistakes, it's going to be like all good, like no sweat.
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But I was just crashing out to the point where like it was so stupid, but it's also not because it's incredibly important.
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Like I had like a massive like wardrobe malfunction.
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And that on top of everything else sent me full-blown panic attack, full-blown like crash out like weekend two of Coachella. I lost it. Completely lost it. Like screaming, crying.
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Like I was like, I am That's the one I saw. >> Yeah. I was going ballistic.
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I was so sad because it was it was a it was a tiny thing that did make a massive difference.
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And I think that I am a really resilient person and I'm somebody who like really brings, >> you know, whatever you want to call it, like my like authentic self or my most honest self >> that I think I seem like I can handle a lot more than I really can.
17:37
And that was a huge moment of like, no, I can't I actually can't handle the like um seemingly little things, but like clothes that are going on my body and clothes that are supposed to make me feel comfortable as a performer.
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M >> and in something that I feel really deeply if even if if those don't go right >> that is a mind for me and it was like tiny logistic things like that that I think it appeared that I could handle and I wouldn't care but I actually care so deeply about every finite detail.
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>> Dude, imagine if Wonder Woman woke up and the cape didn't fit. >> Bro, I'm sorry.
18:16
I'm not I'm not saving the world today. >> The cape doesn't fit. not fitting.
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>> So, you know, I understand there's a volcano kicking off on some part of the world and I could get there like that, >> of course, >> but the cape doesn't fit. I don't feel good. I'm fine.
18:32
>> It's actually makes total sense because that is your that is your identity for that particular 45 minutes or an hour on stage.
18:37
It >> and it's got to it's got to help you get there.
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So, people are like, "Oh, it's just a thing." It's not just the thing. >> It's so important.
18:45
>> You were in the red, man. >> Yeah, I was. >> You were in the red. >> Woo! I was so gone. I was so gone.
18:50
>> So, how did you change it? What did you do?
18:51
I started saying no to everything.
18:51
I um started doing just like things for my own mental health.
19:03
Um that really made a difference.
19:05
>> Like well what was something simple that you applied to your daily lifestyle that like I mean I've been all about that so I love that.
19:11
And and by the way I mean that the smallest things that you adjust to your daily routine make the biggest difference.
19:17
>> I mean this was like a massive one.
19:17
I went off of birth control, which I know you're like, and why the were you on birth control?
19:25
Which I understand doesn't really logistically kind of add up, which I totally get.
19:30
>> I'm not putting you in a box, Renee. >> That's okay. I put me in a box. I eat box.
19:33
So, I'm putting me in a box. You know what I mean? So, I So, >> gets one. >> Yeah. Thank you.
19:41
>> They're harder to come by these days.
19:42
People started to expect them.
19:42
And when you expect them, I don't want to give them out anymore.
19:45
But you know, the box squared was outstanding.
19:51
>> Backto back bombs for box squared. is too easy.
19:53
No, I'm gonna work for him. I'm gonna work for him.
19:56
Um, but I'm glad you like that. Thank you. >> That was great.
19:59
>> Um, went off of birth control.
19:59
I'd been on it since I was a kid.
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I think like a lot of times, um, doctors just kind of like prescribe just for fun and like shits and giggles.
20:13
>> That's terrifying, by the way. >> Yeah.
20:14
No, I have my own issues with that. >> Try rolin.
20:17
>> Yeah, >> you'll like it.
20:19
>> They're like, "Hang on, girl. Here's fentanyl. You have period cramps?"
20:22
>> Seriously, >> you want a gun?
20:23
>> For shits and giggles, try that. >> Exactly. That and that is it. up.
20:28
>> And that is literally it. So, I did it.
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I I went on birth control when I was a kid.
20:31
So, I went on probably when I was about like 16.
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And then I was on it for 8 years.
20:35
And when I started like crashing out, I was like, "Okay, I need to make big life changes.
20:40
Like, this is not I'm not having fun.
20:42
I'm like way too depressed and I'm way too cute to be sad. Yeah.
20:46
I was like, there's no >> You sound way too cute to be sad. >> Yeah.
20:49
I was like, I'm not I can't I can't do this.
20:52
>> I'll But that would that would have almost been creepy. Yeah. >> That's right. >> No, I'm edging you. I'm edging you.
20:57
It I I I decided I was like, I'm going off of it. I'm not doing that.
21:02
I started doing a bunch of different therapies. I did ketamine therapy. >> How was that? >> Amazing. >> People love it. >> Wo, I love it.
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Almost in a way that's like, whoa, I love it.
21:14
>> Almost in a way that like I'm a kid addict now.
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I didn't even do it for therapy.
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Let me tell you, >> I was like, hang on, can I take some home? >> No, it was great.
21:23
There were a couple days where I was like, >> yeah.
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>> So, you're kidding me.
21:28
Yeah, but it was it was incredibly helpful.
21:30
I did it for OCD, which also was um it just I basically just like had crashed out and I was like, I need to go into every tiny little detail in my life.
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And I have the resources in my life now.
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I'm lucky enough to like have the financial capacity to like really go in on some woowoo And I did.
21:47
Going off birth control, best thing ever. That is poison. Ruined my life. So happy I'm off of it. Did K therapy. Loved it.
21:58
>> Can I ask you about the OCD benefits?
21:59
cuz I'm I'm a life I'm a lifer OCD lifer.
22:02
So like how did I know what your part cuz cuz thing about OCD is very hard to actually categorize because everyone such a unique experience for everybody obviously it's like a perfect storm.
22:12
>> How did it help your particular type of >> I have like what is referred to I guess as like I forget it's like pure O.
22:17
It's like the strict obsessive like thought pattern of everything which is is just OCD in general but to like be incredibly like micro about it. >> Yeah.
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The needle gets on the record and it just skips and and don't get me wrong like K therapy didn't just like magically like take that away.
22:38
Like I'm still insane all the time.
22:40
But >> I it helped because it was like I knew what like momentary relief felt like and I was like confronted with things that were really strict thought patterns when I was in these like gay holes. >> And it was amazing.
23:00
And I would wake up every single time I did it like crying.
23:06
Like I would just have like tears like down my like cheeks.
23:08
Um, and then I was kind of hung over the next day, which was ass.
23:12
But it it was it was really like deep and really thoughtprovoking and I was I I understood like momentary peace, which I think was big.
23:21
God, >> just that just that bit of relief makes such a difference.
23:24
I remember the first time when I had a breakthrough in therapy and I realized I knew myself.
23:27
I knew a part of myself that had been a mystery to me for a very long time >> and I just felt this feeling of relief.
23:36
And of course, it takes years.
23:36
And of course, it takes years. there there's no magic but just you were so right just that moment of like >> oh that's what it feels like >> it was amazing it was it was really cool and I also I think the biggest thing was I was like I am going to take a long time to make this
23:55
record so everybody was kind of like all right like you'll put a song out like la you know fall of last year all this and I was tweaking out I was like oh my god how am I going to do this and I was in the car talking to my girlfriend I was like how am I going to do this like I I don't I don't know. And she just
24:08
And she just like looked at me and was like, who decided that? >> Yeah.
24:13
>> And I was like, well, that's what I was told I have to do.
24:15
And believe it or not, if somebody tells me to do something for work, I'm doing it.
24:18
Like I'm pretty defiant in every other space in my life.
24:22
>> Not to be weird about it, but you started, you know, as a young as a young girl. >> Absolutely.
24:26
>> So there's like training like this is my job. >> Yes. That's what I do.
24:29
And like everybody around me knows better than me.
24:32
Um, and it's not to say that sometimes they don't, but like >> it shouldn't be a it shouldn't be a a regimen. >> Yes. Exactly.
24:38
And it and it became that for me.
24:40
So >> my girlfriend was like, "You don't have to do that."
24:44
And I was like, >> "Your girlfriend's great." >> Yeah.
24:46
And I was like, "Uh I was like, wait, really? Like are you sure?"
24:49
And she was like, "Bro, like I've just watched you be like clinically depressed over the last six months.
24:55
Like you just had massive life changes.
24:56
I had just like gotten out of a job that was like so terrible.
25:00
I had just like done a ton of shows that I was like really depressed whilst I was doing it.
25:08
And she was like, "Stop."
25:08
Like, she's like, "You can chill and you can take as long as um as long of a time to make this as you want."
25:13
And then I kind of started to get cocky and I was like, "Wait, I can take as long as I want."
25:17
I was like, "You just got another 6 months.
25:21
You just got another 5 month delay. Say anything to me.
25:22
You're adding two months to your sentence."
25:25
I like you'll never get this music ever again.
25:29
And so then I kind of went, you know, on the other side. >> Yeah, you did.
25:34
>> And then eventually came back around.
25:36
But that was also really nice was feeling like I had power and agency in like making my music >> for the first time ever. >> Yeah.
25:44
Cuz I just always felt like I had to like myself out to everybody all the time.
25:48
Um cuz I felt like I was constantly trying to have to prove myself and I >> Where's that come from?
25:55
Does it Does it come from >> I'll give you a couple of starters for 10. >> Okay.
25:59
>> Does it Does it come from the the the early days of like being a performer, getting putting your identity in front of people for >> applause and you're great and everything else.
26:10
I got to I got to keep getting that.
26:12
Or do you think it started even earlier than that and that's what propelled you to want to entertain and want to make people happy?
26:20
>> This I'm kind of woo woo about.
26:20
I like really believe that everything is very like universally based.
26:24
I think everything is like divine timing.
26:26
I think that like we only have control over the things that we actually can control.
26:31
I think that for me it just came from like the the like want and like the need and obsession to do the thing that I love which is to like make music.
26:42
So I felt like I >> you can do that and never put it out >> right but then comes in >> to say you should but it's just nice to know.
26:53
>> I've thought about it. >> It's nice to know.
26:55
>> Oh I've thought about it.
26:55
I've thought about it cuz what's interesting is like I the way that I'm perceived and the way that I come across is like incredibly outgoing and very sure of myself and very resilient.
27:07
And it's not to say that I'm not but like >> I that was always that was so shocking to me. >> A lot to live up to.
27:17
>> It's a lot to live up to and also I'm cripplingly insecure.
27:19
So, I remember when I started being perceived on a larger level, being so confused that that's what other people thought about me. >> Yeah. Yeah.
27:28
>> Because I was like, you're playing in my face right now.
27:30
There's no way you actually think this, but it is inherently how I come across.
27:32
I don't really feel that way. >> Well, yeah. Good job.
27:35
I mean, man, you fooled everyone. I mean, great job.
27:38
>> And I'm not even trying to.
27:38
Like, I'm not I'm not trying to like >> It's tough.
27:43
That's a really really tough thing to realize is that that you you've set an expectation for us >> that is not realistic.
27:48
And it's it's just not how I view myself in my head, which is also weird cuz I'm like, wait, I don't really I'm like and I guess I say everything pretty sarcastically.
28:02
>> Is it sarcastic when you say, you know, um, at least I'm hot.
28:04
I mean, it's kind of is, but it's also kind of like there's a confidence in your music. >> Yes. >> And the way that Wow. Yeah.
28:10
It's just a paradox, right?
28:12
Like everything >> it's a 50-50.
28:13
It's I my I live in a complete 50-50 similar to what you were saying in the beginning.
28:18
I'm I think or I try to be or I make an effort to be in this life.
28:22
Incredibly empathetic and emotionally >> intelligent, >> intelligent, aware and attached, right?
28:30
And I always want to leave room for that.
28:31
I also >> am brash and a feisty little and very very very protective and sure of myself in that way.
28:40
So, it's like those two things going on all the time feed into my life.
28:45
Like I think there's 50% of me that wishes that I only made music and never put it out and wore a a paper bag over my head.
28:52
And then the other part of me is like, "No, this is something I love to do is like putting out music for people to receive it even though it makes me crazy."
29:02
And like the promotional aspect of it >> is really difficult for me.
29:09
>> You don't do that much though, right?
29:09
I mean, >> no, cuz it's so hard for me. >> It It just is.
29:15
I'm grateful you're here. >> Yeah.
29:16
Well, the things like this are like >> this is like an actual conversation.
29:21
This is like actually something that I like to do because I know that you care and you care just as much as I care.
29:27
Like there's a lot of stuff where I mentally can't do it anymore because I'm like >> this isn't I'm, you know, on the 10th time someone's like, "So, what is this album for you?"
29:37
I'm like, "What do you think, >> What do you think?" I'm like, "It's music. I made me."
29:42
They're like, "What is it about?"
29:43
I'm like, if you don't want to listen to it, that's cool, but just don't.
29:47
I I don't want to be here.
29:48
Then >> I forgot that sometimes when you get really on one, you go full Jersey.
29:54
>> You get real New Jersey.
29:54
You're like, >> "What do you think, >> There's a little bit of New Jersey going on there."
29:59
It's just like by the 10th time you ask me this, I'm like, "What do you think, bitch?" >> I love Jersey Shore.
30:04
>> Maybe it's had a deep impact.
30:04
Maybe it's >> Snooky's impact on me.
30:08
>> Maybe Snooky's had a massive impact.
30:10
>> I used to wear a bump. >> You did. >> I wear a bump. Not.
30:12
But um I used to wear a bump.
30:15
That's that stage school huh? >> Yeah.
30:17
>> That's the mature version of that stage school upbringing.
30:20
>> It is my stage school upbringing. Yeah.
30:22
>> So you get a 5mon delay.
30:22
You get a six month delay.
30:24
You need to pour the back.
30:26
You're not coming on vacation. Yep.
30:28
>> So you get to make an album with some with some space.
30:33
>> And the first song is now very understandable to everybody. >> Right. >> Right.
30:37
Makes total sense of course. Right. Leave it alone.
30:40
>> Yes, I want to have fun. >> Right. Self-explanatory.
30:44
>> And then from there Yeah.
30:44
And then from there it's like a snapshot after it's like it's like 12 polaroids. >> Mhm. >> In in vivid color. >> Mhm.
30:52
>> Really really brilliantly put together as like an overarching like lot of push back. >> Yeah.
30:58
>> Some real self analysis, some good acceptance work on this record as well. >> Yeah.
31:03
>> Like you I can tell you're proud of it. >> Thanks. I'm really proud of it.
31:06
>> What do you love about your record?
31:06
I don't ask that enough of musicians and artists and I want to start asking that more.
31:11
What do you love about what you've made? >> It's a good question.
31:13
It's I think like the thing that I love most about what I've made is I couple things.
31:22
I I set out to impress myself, >> which we've established already in this conversation is a high bar. >> Yes. Is a very high bar.
31:28
I set out to impress myself.
31:30
I set out to make music I would want to listen to.
31:32
And I set out to uh not compromise a single thing about my personality and be unwaveringly loud about it. And I did that.
31:44
And I'm very impressed with my own And I'm usually not.
31:48
And everybody who knows me knows that.
31:50
When we finished this album, I was like I would go home and like tell T I'd be like smash.
31:58
I'd be like, "That is so good."
32:00
And I've never felt that way about my own songs before.
32:03
And let's be clear, I had so many days where I was so depressed and I was like, "I'll just never cook again."
32:08
Like, it's really over for me.
32:10
Like, that's it's the 50/50 once.
32:12
>> What a great feeling to be a fan of your >> It is the most euphoric.
32:18
>> That's what Brian You said to me is that rule number one for anyone who wants to be creative is what do you like? >> Yes. 100%. 100%.
32:22
>> Yes. 100%. 100%. And it was it's it's hard cuz I I you want to you want to like your own stuff but you also like I felt for a long time like I was like oh I don't like I want to be like oh koi about it like oh you like it like oh my god wait really oh my god that's so cute now I'm
32:46
like most unconvincing koi impression I've ever seen in my life >> because it doesn't feel authentic to me because I love this so I'm like I love This the difficult part is I loved it and I still love it, but like then going into like the like putting it out aspect adds another layer of anxiety. >> But I think that the thing that I keep
33:05
>> But I think that the thing that I keep coming back to and the reason that I love it so much is because every single song >> kind of like what you're saying about at least I'm hot.
33:14
Like it's like it's sarcastic and playful, but I really wanted to say everything without actually saying the like actual thing.
33:24
Like I wanted to use the secondary emotion.
33:26
So I was incredibly depressed, but I was like, damn, at least I'm fine, right?
33:31
So like that's the secondary emotion, but you can still feel the like this is coming from a place that's like, woo, it's every single song is like how to deal with something that is incredibly painful, but be resilient.
33:50
>> It's really clever writing because Yeah.
33:51
Because what it does is it um it it draws you in with its immediate charm >> and then and then once you realize what you're actually hearing you say, >> you're listening to what you're saying.
34:05
>> You realize, oh, okay, there's >> there's a lot of layers here.
34:07
Like I can live with this now and understand it over time. >> Definitely.
34:12
>> You know, so you know, you basically, you know, you got us through the door with free beer >> and like a mirrorball and a local DJ.
34:20
M >> and then you told us all the bad news. >> Yeah. Yeah. For real. >> It's not the music. >> That's what's funny.
34:27
>> An announcement to make. >> No, literally.
34:28
But that's that's also what's fun about it.
34:29
It feels like I've like I've been saying I'm like this album to me feels like ripping off all of your clothes, like stripping naked and like running down a street after you've been like just violently crying.
34:45
And you're almost laughing cuz you're like, I'm done with this. I'm sick of this.
34:50
I'm not like letting this like hold me.
34:52
This is not my responsibility.
34:54
Like everybody who had little guns pointed at my head, I'm like boom, you're done. Like done.
34:58
It's like a rebirth and a complete like step forward to me being like all y'all.
35:08
I'm not dealing with this anymore. I'm doing my own thing.
35:10
I'm running away from these emotions, but I'm like getting myself rid of them.
35:15
>> This drunk cup of you juice. >> Yes.
35:17
>> It's really good to drink once in a while.
35:19
It's a powerful energy for Korean. >> Drinking it a lot. >> Yeah. Yeah.
35:23
>> I'm drinking it a lot. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Sounds like it.
35:25
There's so many great songs on this record, man.
35:27
Some of them really stand out to me.
35:31
>> I love Mad obviously is good.
35:31
The first two obviously One Two Punches. You know that.
35:35
>> Love I love the the way you get us into a waltz with Why is she still here?
35:37
And then you keep us at a nice moment with sometimes >> cuz it kiss it is like very very much in that wheelhouse of like you know >> I love >> if it's if it's making you uncomfortable listen to that's good. >> There's no point. I want you to feel it. >> Like show your mom. >> Show your mom. >> Exactly.
35:57
>> She could use some action.
35:58
>> Put this on family road trip summer. >> Yeah.
36:01
>> It's just great writing, you know, and I you know I really do like I I think I like you better when you're gone.
36:04
I mean, I was joking at the start about like that kind of reduced version of your writing, but I love it when you >> um it's just very again like just just very vulnerable writing.
36:16
>> It's really it's the only thing that feels good to me.
36:17
Like nothing nothing feels as good to me as like writing and like making it actually. Nothing.
36:24
>> I think being in the studio is the dream, isn't it? >> It's the best.
36:27
>> I know playing live is great and it's intoxicating everything else, but >> Sure.
36:29
but it's a different thing. It's a different thing.
36:32
Like when I do that, when I'm in the studio, that's like just for me. That's solely for me.
36:35
And like I don't have a lot of my uh um a lot of parts of my life that are solely for me.
36:42
>> And you keep the same crew around you in the studio too.
36:44
It's the same group of people.
36:45
So, you know, the touring thing is a much bigger operation and people coming and old people leaving and stuff, but this is like you're just back in that zone.
36:52
So, paint a picture for us of what the studio is like when you're making this record.
36:55
You've got your very core collaborators around you, Omar. You got your crew. Yeah. >> What is that?
37:00
What is that environment? >> It's pretty volatile. It's pretty volatile.
37:05
It's pretty like, you know, I'm quite neurotic.
37:08
I again, I come across very differently than I view myself.
37:14
And I think the way I view myself is the way that I actually am in a studio setting.
37:20
So, I'm pretty panicky and like on 10.
37:25
Um, and I'm also kind of like method in a way, in an in unintentional way.
37:35
Like if we're writing a song about like up and doing, I'm acting as if I'm doing that just because I I feel what I'm writing so hard and so intensely.
37:49
>> Um, what it feels like is kind of exactly what I was describing of the sort of like rebirth.
37:52
It feels like it starts with me being like really heady and like maybe violently crying and feeling really intense whether I'm like actually crying or not.
38:02
Sometimes good amount of times.
38:06
Good amount of times I actually am.
38:07
Um and then it's like we can like kind of like once we start to like get really like the meat of something that feels amazing, I'm like starting to run and I'm like, "Oh, I get this."
38:18
And I kind of get like a cheeky sort of smile on my face.
38:19
I'm like, "Wait, I feel like I'm doing it."
38:21
like I feel like I'm doing it.
38:22
And then once the song starts to really come together, it's like I'm ripping off my clothes and like streaking naked down some.
38:29
>> It just means a lot to you, doesn't it?
38:31
Like >> it means everything.
38:31
This is the thing I think that we're realizing as we're getting to know our modern sort of artists, especially the your generation that are coming out of this really thrashy crazy time where it's like >> just to love what you do is to put yourself in front of the world in a very unfiltered way.
38:50
And I mean on both I mean both ways. >> It's so intense. >> So intense. >> It's so intense.
38:56
And it doesn't get talked about enough, I think, because most young artists and young people probably feel like >> I don't want to be the person that that talks about it or tries to legitimize it.
39:06
But >> of course, of course, cuz also you don't want to be like self-important. At least I don't.
39:10
I don't like being I don't like feeling self-important.
39:12
I like like joking that I'm self-important.
39:14
Doesn't that fear of like of like I don't want to be the be the one to talk about my feelings or how it feels to be, >> you know, in my 20s coming through the other side of that and not know where I stand outside of public perception and versus identity.
39:26
God doesn't >> that just kind of perpetrate the cycle of violence in a way?
39:32
Like I'm not saying you need to do it today, but I'm saying like I would I as as someone who >> grew into this world, >> you were born into it.
39:41
I think it would be really beneficial for everyone to just actually come clean once in a while and say this shit's wild. >> Yeah, it's weird. It's really weird.
39:50
I I also find it I find it like difficult to feel or to express anything other than like some level of of gratitude because there's also so much that comes along with it that you are afforded.
40:07
>> Two things can be right. >> Yes. Exactly.
40:08
It's like being aware that like we have so much access.
40:10
we are afforded um incredible lifestyles and also it is so like mindnumbing and it's really loud and it's really easy to like wake up and be like I have no idea who I am because I've given myself completely away and now I have nothing and now I have nothing.
40:38
And that feeling is like so harrowing because you're like, "Wait, like how did I lose myself >> in the thing that I love so much?"
40:47
>> I just know you love it, dude.
40:47
Like I This is the thing and that's I was getting back to my point like I think we need to acknowledge that artists like you want to make a hundred albums >> and stop thinking about it like the next one and the next one, >> right?
41:02
>> Think about it in terms of 30. >> Yeah, of course.
41:04
Cuz again like the second the second for me it becomes too self-important is like the second I lose perspective you know like it's it's so it has to be so much bigger than me.
41:14
It is like I don't >> it's you too. It's it's a weird one.
41:19
>> Yeah >> cuz it's kind of with you. >> Yeah.
41:21
Of I mean if I don't do it nobody's going to you know nobody's coming to help me do it. >> What was that?
41:28
What was the hardest Oh >> Go girl. No, man.
41:31
Because you know, you're sitting there and you just beautifully composed and working your way through your feelings.
41:36
And I'm like, what's the hardest song you made on the record? >> I don't know.
41:40
>> Well, the hardest like definitely like without question was Shy >> because Shai started as a ballad and one that I had spearheaded and I like wrote this whole hook for it that was actually called Handle with Care.
41:59
that was like about me falling in love with my girlfriend and like being so uh uptight and scared because I had just gotten out of a really tough relationship.
42:10
>> Who should handle who with care?
42:12
>> I was telling her to handle me with care cuz I was freaking out.
42:14
I was like so tweaked out.
42:17
I I I was in a relationship that I was really difficult and I had just gotten out of it and I was like falling in love with her unexpectedly and I was like, "Holy shit."
42:29
Like, if I'm actually going to jump into this, like I'm going to have to completely jump into this and be like, "Can you please help me cuz I'm I'm nervous >> and like she made me really nervous and I'm not I don't deal super well with being nervous." Yeah.
42:47
>> And I'm like, yo, >> you wrote that you wrote that beautifully on the record. Literally word for word. >> Yeah.
42:52
So, we like flipped the song completely.
42:55
>> It went through so many different iterations, but we believed in the song so so much.
42:59
So many different writers took stabs at the hook.
43:02
So many different tempos and we cut the song damn near like 10 times.
43:08
Different keys, different everything.
43:12
>> Those are the real ones that fight for the fight for the >> Oh my god.
43:15
I was like, I know this is going to be important to me.
43:19
>> And then finally, it turned out being exactly what it was always meant to be and should have been, which is like a record being cheeky and being like, I want you to excuse me, dick me down.
43:33
And also be nice to me cuz I'm a little shy, but I'm so in love with you. >> Again, the two sides. >> Exactly. Exactly. Yes.
43:38
And also >> and also, hey, hey yo. Yeah.
43:45
>> Don't handle me with care. >> Right. Right.
43:46
So, Shai was shy was hard because it was just actually hard to write.
43:51
>> I like the lines, I'm violent when I'm drinking and I'm violent when I'm sober, too. >> Right. >> Basically, right?
43:56
>> I'm just a fighting psycho.
43:59
>> I was giving her like a crash run of like, listen, I'm going to be violent when I'm drinking.
44:03
I'm going to be violent when I'm not.
44:06
>> Define violent when you're drinking.
44:07
violently when I'm drinking is I'm a protector, right?
44:11
>> You know, I'm a protector.
44:11
If any of my friends get into anything, I'm stepping too. Do you know what I mean?
44:17
>> I think you're stepping to even if they don't >> potentially.
44:19
And usually my friends bring it upon themselves and perhaps so do I.
44:23
But >> you think really they just want to see you go at it?
44:25
You think maybe it's just like you watch this >> 100%.
44:28
But also like we're in like a big group of like like lesbian girls and like NBs.
44:34
So like anytime we go out anywhere, we inherently I feel like people are just like looking at us in kind of a way and like bouncers hate us cuz we want nothing to do with them and we're not going to try to charm them at all cuz we're like what the do we want from you?
44:49
>> So we're always getting into little tiffs, you know? >> Which I find fun.
44:52
I wear hats now, you know? six pistols. >> Yeah, exactly. >> It's like off. It's so fun. It's so fun.
45:00
But >> but yeah, so shy was hard to write.
45:01
And then >> great >> emotionally difficult to write, I think, >> was I can't have you around me anymore. >> Love that.
45:13
>> Um cuz I really wanted to I I wanted a song like that so desperately. >> Like what?
45:20
>> One that felt like if I didn't write it, I would kill myself. Like one >> Yeah.
45:26
So yeah, the song that someone else writes that you're like, I wish I'd written.
45:30
>> Yes, that was a song that I was like, if anyone else had wrote this song, I'd be livid. I didn't write it first. I was so proud of it.
45:38
>> You know what's funny?
45:38
I played it when you walked in because I've got that sense.
45:41
And also the thing is that that riff is so delicious.
45:42
But when you start singing on it, I'm like, "Oh, you're so happy to be on this."
45:48
>> Oh, it's just it's my thing. >> It's my riff. I get to sing on.
45:50
It's just it >> it's so it's so >> those notes have been written before but not that way, not in that order, not without feeling.
45:58
It's like the first time I ever heard those notes.
46:00
It's really like a beautiful >> Yeah. Yeah.
46:03
That's that's like one of those songs I think that like you can't really conceptualize how someone went in and wrote that song.
46:10
You're like, how did that even and it's like it just is like divine and it just happened and it was exactly what it should be and it's really bittersweet.
46:18
We love your music and as a human being I really think like >> you show up for people even when you don't want to. That's the work ethic.
46:26
But I'm glad you feel you don't have to anymore if you don't if you can't. >> Yeah.
46:31
>> That's the that's that that's the big growth, right? Yeah.
46:33
>> Through this whole like last few years. >> Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
46:36
>> Which means we get the real you for a long time to come because that old you would have lasted another album cycle and we may not have got you at all. >> Yeah.
46:44
I'm trying to I'm I'm seeing witches and I'm I'm trusting in the universe to just do its thing and everything. >> Yeah. Yeah. They're tapped in.
46:52
That's why I love when I go to New York, right?
46:55
Cuz I spend a bit of time in New York now and um you still like walk down the street and it's just like readings by Wanda and I'm like die for Wanda.
47:03
>> I just I just kind of want to go in one day and just to see >> do it.
47:06
Have do you ever see the ones on like Tik Tok when you go on the live stuff and it's like some with the thing that goes like this and she's like if your birthday is this, he's coming back.
47:17
He'll come back to you, girl.
47:17
And me, like definitely a lesbian.
47:19
I'm like, "Oh my god, he's coming back."
47:21
I'm like, "Holy he's on his he missed me."
47:25
Mind you, she's talking about Jesus.
47:25
But I'm like, "Oh my god, my ex."
47:27
And like it's I fall for that Crazy. They have the thing.
47:31
Or they'll be like, "Here's your card."
47:33
And they're like, "Your birthday's February 7th." I'm like, "Wrong. Completely wrong. >> That's okay. You get the pass." >> Yeah.
47:40
I'm like, "It's totally fine."
47:41
She's like, "Touch 10th."
47:41
I'm like, "You know what? Fine. >> Perfect. Thanks, Wanda." Yeah. I love those, though. >> Yeah.
47:47
I I don't know if I can do it, man.
47:49
I I want to do it, but part of me is just like, "What if it's bad?
47:51
What if they're like, "Whoa, you're still here." >> What a shock. >> It's amazing.
47:56
I mean, like I I have it on my records that you've passed your use by tape. >> Yeah.
48:02
You were supposed to cook a long time ago. >> Long time ago. >> I've had a bad one.
48:07
>> It It does leave you unsettled.
48:09
>> Does leave you unsettled. >> And was it a bad one?
48:10
Like where they were really where they like this?
48:14
>> No, he kind of just said it super direct, which was kind of worse. >> Kind of. him.
48:18
>> He That was my first mistake. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. He sweet though. Good intentions. >> Yeah. Good intentions. >> Sorry. I take that back. Good guy. >> No. him. him for sure.
48:29
>> He's got to tell the truth.
48:29
He told me where to move my plants in my house though.
48:31
So I did that >> and >> well the designer came.
48:33
She said, "Why the is that here?"
48:35
And I was like, "Well, wouldn't you like to know?
48:38
>> Why did you move a 7ft plant into the kitchen?"
48:41
>> Oh, by the by the oven.
48:42
>> She was like, "This is so offbalance."
48:44
And I was like, "I was trying to with my fune."
48:45
I was like, "God damn it.
48:47
I don't know what to do anymore. >> Don't with your fune. >> Don't with my fune." >> A bad one. >> Really? Yeah. It was bad. I cried. >> He said that. Oh my god.
48:56
And my mom had it out on me for this one.
48:59
He said that my mom shouldn't fly this year. It would be unsafe. >> Yeah. >> Brutal.
49:08
>> And then I made the mistake of telling my mom. >> Yeah. Wigged her out.
49:11
She was like, "Why the would you say that to me?"
49:13
And I was like, "I don't know. I'm sorry.
49:16
I just told you what he told me. I'm sorry."
49:19
I was like, "I was trying to make light of it."
49:20
Like, "This can't be true."
49:22
And she was like, "Rene, now I'm not going to fly.
49:23
I was supposed to fly next week." And I was like, "Fuck."
49:24
I was like, "No, you should." >> What year was this? This year.
49:27
Yeah, that was this year. >> Yeah, I know. I know. >> I know. I know. I know. >> Has she flown since? No. >> Absolutely, bro.
49:36
She's on She's a jet setter. Come on.
49:39
>> So, she's like, "Fuck that."
49:40
>> Yeah, I think she forgot about it. She'll remember now.
49:41
But yeah, she forgot about it.
49:43
She was not happy with with uh with me for that.
49:44
I also am not supposed to go around cemeteries this year.
49:48
What am I supposed to do when I'm driving home from LAX?
49:49
You pass a big one on your right. What do I do? Shut my eyes?
49:52
Can imagine if they have a few things up their sleeve where they just don't like you and they just like with you. Huh?
49:58
>> Oh, they're going to with you.
49:59
>> They're like, "You know what's going to really freak you out? Air travel." >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god.
50:05
>> The most out of control you can be. >> No. So insane.
50:06
And I was like, "Is there anything I can do?" >> Learn to fly. >> Yeah. He was like, "No." I was like, "Oh, okay.
50:14
>> I want you as a fan >> Yeah.
50:18
>> as a someone who's working hard >> Yeah. to be a buddy. >> Yeah.
50:23
>> I want you to be healthy. >> Thanks. >> Happy. >> Thanks. >> Creative. >> Thanks. >> Fulfilled. >> Thanks. >> Me, too. >> Just do it. >> I will. You, too. God. >> God. [Music]