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You don't really say, "Well, I just want to get a yes."
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And it's like, "Well, you're not going to just get a yes, especially if you have something that's bold and original and different cuz a bunch of people are going to say, 'Well, I don't get it.'" Right?
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Like, you know, like, "I don't get that people want to buy flavored water without sugar. I don't get that."
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You know, there's all of these things that we go into on Masters of Scale that say, "Actually, in fact, sometimes when you get a bunch of people who say, 'I don't get it.'
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That's precisely when you have something that's gold.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow.
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Now, you know that I don't take your ears for granted.
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I'm grateful that you take out so much time out of your days to listen and learn, whether you're walking your dog or you're at the gym, or whether you're driving to and from work, or wherever you are right now, thank you for choosing On Purpose.
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And this is a conversation that I've been excited to have for a very long time.
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Today, I'm speaking to none other than Reid Hoffman.
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Now, Reid is an accomplished entrepreneur, and that is an understatement. He's an investor.
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He's played an integral role in building many of today's leading consumer technology businesses.
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He's, of course, the co-founder of LinkedIn and an investor at Greylock.
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He's the host of his own podcast, Masters of Scale, so you're going to see a master at work today, an original podcast series, and the first American media program to commit to a 50/50 gender balance for featured guests.
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He's the co-author of four best-selling books, The Startup of You, The Alliance, Blitzscaling, and his newest book, with the same name of his podcast, Masters of Scale, Surprising Truths from the world's most successful entrepreneurs.
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Reid, welcome to On Purpose, and thank you for being here.
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Uh, it's great to be here. I I love your show.
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Um, I have listened to it, you know, as much as I listen to any podcast including my own.
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Right, which is every moment I have time for.
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And if I had a little bit more commutes uh outside of the pandemic, I think my listening to all of these quality podcasts, most centrally yours, That's so kind, Reid.
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I'm I'm humbled and I'm touched and the feeling is mutual.
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I love your podcast, too.
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And that's what I was just thanking you offline that I'm so grateful that you've synthesized all of this incredible wisdom from all the phenomenal people you've interviewed into a book that we can easily look at, read, skip to chapters, look at challenges, understand stories.
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And as we're talking about before, what I love about the book is that it's the stories, it's the psychology, it's the tips, it's the insight, it's everything.
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It's this very 360-degree approach.
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But, Reid, I want to start with your life not as an entrepreneur, but as an employee.
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And your first paying job was an editor at a gaming company, and you also wanted to become a professor, which makes me think you were gearing up to be an employee, either of a school or a or an incredible faculty, or and of course you did as a gaming company.
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When did the idea of entrepreneurship first spark your intriguing curiosity, and how much were you already convinced you were going to be an entrepreneur, or were you always thinking you were going to be an employee?
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So, I don't think the category of employee or entrepreneur had actually really occurred to me.
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I always think in terms of projects, I always think in terms of what the work is, what the activity, what you're building.
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Um and I don't think it was until years later, I don't think it was until years into LinkedIn that I was like, "Oh, right.
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Entrepreneur is the word that describes the activity that I'm doing."
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Like, it wasn't really like, "I'm going to be an entrepreneur."
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That's really It was more like, "What do you build? What do you fashion?"
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And that That you know, all the way back to, you know, Great research, not that many people know that I kind of, you know, talked my way into the door of a gaming company when I was 12, and then ended up doing some work for them.
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Uh so, you know, good research for that.
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Uh but that was because I was interested in fantasy role-playing games, you know, Dungeons & Dragons and so on.
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I was like, this is what I want to spend my time doing, so I want to get in that door and I want to connect with the people who are doing this.
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And then, you know, kind of similarly, and then, I think I became an entrepreneur because when I started thinking about the the the company the the the the the the impact that I wanted to have in the world, the way that I wanted the the insights that I thought I had that could be operationalized, you know, was coming about from the very earliest days of the internet.
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And with the very earliest days of the internet was, how do we live in this medium by which all of us as individuals and as groups were made better off?
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And what kind of products can you create there?
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And when I looked at kind of like, what were the things I could possibly join, none of them had the kind of the shape of what I wanted to create.
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And so, that made me an entrepreneur.
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And I wasn't reluctant, but I was completely focused on this is the future that I want to build.
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And so, you know, that naturally, more that more naturally aligns with entrepreneurship.
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What I love about that, Reed, is that not having these buckets almost of thought of saying I have to choose actually helped you find the right path.
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And I think often we put these very binary, black and white choices in front of people, and we say, "Well, do you want to work for someone, or do you want to be an entrepreneur?"
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And in one sense, they're both the wrong questions.
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It seems like the right question is, as you said, is to be project focused, is to thinking about what you actually want to do, or what you want to build, and which home allows you to build that more successfully, which I think is a is a brilliant insight.
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So, I really appreciate that.
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I wanted to understand, though, when you started your first company, SocialNet, could you share with us the mistakes that you made and which mistakes you don't want our audience to avoid.
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I think often the question is, "Well, really like what mistakes should I avoid when I start a company?"
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I want to ask you the opposite question.
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What mistakes were just so integral that you had to make when you started your first company that you would want other people to have?
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It is a absolute great question and and one of the kind of I think one thing you learn about business and entrepreneurship has aphorisms and I think one of the aphorisms that's appropriate here is I never learned so much except for maybe between the ages of two and three when I jumped off the cliff for my first company.
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And people obviously and I by the way I normally advertise here's the land mine you avoid, you know, here's the so forth but that but your question is also a really great one.
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I would tend to say the mistakes that I made that I think are still that are integral to being successful in entrepreneurship one is jumping off the cliff, a bias to action.
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If you think about it in a clear headed way, there's all kinds of things you don't know before you start a company.
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I didn't really know I could never start a company before, didn't know about financing, didn't know about how what what your initial hires would be, didn't know how to scope a project for the first product release didn't know which things were kind of the classic mistakes.
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mistakes. Now that I think I could have done a little more research on and probably would have been like my advice to my younger self would be call a few people, you know, and and kind of avoid the obvious mistakes so you make the unobvious mistakes but I think the
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predisposition to kind of jumping off the cliff and going was I think one of the things that was a central you know, you say it's like embodies a whole bunch of mistakes but you have to make those mistakes and you have to know that you're making them. It's almost
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It's almost like, "Boy, I know I'm going to get into a bunch of fender scrapes and I'm going to bounce off the side of the highway and that kind of thing, but that's the only path forward, so here we go. And hit the accelerator.
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Yes, I love I love that answer.
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that answer. I think that's uh such a great one uh because I think you're so right that if you actually think coherently and in an organized way, you wouldn't do what 99% of entrepreneurs have had to do and that becomes your biggest block because
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chances are your first swing is not going to be successful anyway, but go knowing that and still going away and still trying to do that allows you to get over that hurdle of being very sensible and and thinking more responsibly. So, I I think that's a
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So, I I think that's a brilliant answer.
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brilliant answer. I wanted to ask you because I think lots of entrepreneurs or people who want to be entrepreneurs and we're we're going to go through the book through chapters that I found really powerful, but I wanted to start off by saying you called your podcast and the book Masters of Scale and as soon as I heard that title
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when I first started listening to the podcast, I loved it because I always wanted to be able to spread wisdom at scale but with intimacy and depth and that was always my fascination of how could you spread something that was for everyone but speak to one person and and really feel like you're connected to one person. What is the difference between
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What is the difference between scaling and growing a business?
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And and how you define what a master of scale is.
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I think there's a it's a little bit like other important words and concepts in our human space like friendship and so forth.
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forth. It's a little deliberately amorphous on kind of where that kind of scale and mastery goes because we want it to be everything from, you know, what the classic things would one know and think about is building businesses like
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LinkedIn or Airbnb or, you know, or Uber or Google or any of these things that you're that that the building these things of industry redefining, society redefining, uh hopefully massively improving kinds of things is kind of the scale that you're targeting for. And
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And mastery is the mastery of running the the kind of the the slalom course, uh, with minefield and fog and all the rest, which is this is the thing that matters is getting to scale.
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And that's what that that's what we essentially target.
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It's not just the entrepreneurs, but executives and employees and people who care about what these companies or organizations are doing.
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But we also hope that the tools will apply in a wide variety of other things.
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So you could say, "Well, I think the only way of solving climate change is scale technology, uh, but also the only way of of improving human society is scale wisdom.
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So, how would you take these tools and make them available across the entire set to think about you know, how do we remake ourselves and our societies, you know, at the global or at the, you know, transnational scale? Yes, absolutely.
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And and I love that differentiation because just like the word entrepreneur, I remember I was speaking to a really good friend of mine who founded ClassPass, Payal Kadakia.
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Uh, and I believe she's been on your show, actually.
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And yes, and and I remember speaking to her about that.
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She was, you know, she she's also a very big fan of the show, too.
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And she was talking about her definition of an entrepreneur is someone who tries to solve a problem, right?
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Not someone who starts a business.
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And and she was saying, you know, you could be selling X or Y or Z on on the internet and call it a business and call yourself an entrepreneur, but she was saying that entrepreneurs are really trying to solve a problem.
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They're addicted and obsessed with that.
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And I think just like that, as you're defining the difference between growth and scale, that differentiation is important for us as we start to build our journey or careers.
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Now, in chapter one, you're talking about getting Oh, sorry. Yes.
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No, let me just add one thing to Pyle's excellent definition and her episode is great.
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I recommend it to everyone.
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Uh she was one of the people I have to like to meet through doing a podcast.
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It's the one of the awesome things about us doing these podcasts is a chance to meet other really interesting people.
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An entrepreneur is a person who's solving a problem, but in particular, uh she or he is solving a problem where she doesn't yet have either all the resources or the knowledge or all of the the tool set in order to do it.
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So, you have to actually in fact you Like if you were to say, do I have everything laid out in front of me in order to solve that problem?
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Unlike for example, I could say for a piece of woodworking, like I'm going to make, you know, a bed frame, like do I have everything out in front of me?
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The answer is that an as an entrepreneur, you don't and you may not even yet know how.
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And that's one of the key things about the entrepreneurial journey.
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I love I love that addition as well.
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Yes, building your bed frame from an IKEA box is is not does not count.
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It's all laid out for you.
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Uh I I absolutely love that.
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Uh chapter one in the book and I always like to give people a little bit of a taste when we're talking about a book because my genuine hope for everyone who's listening and watching, wherever you are, is that you go and grab a copy of this book.
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Uh it's going to be my new book that I recommend to each and every single person who comes to me and says, "Jay, I have an idea or I don't know what to do with it.
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I don't know where to start. How do I go about it?"
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This is the book that I'm going to give them.
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Or even if you say, "Jay, I don't have an idea.
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I just I'm a bit curious about all of this.
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All my friends are becoming entrepreneurs.
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I see it all over the world. What How do I do that?"
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This is the book I'm going to be giving to people.
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Uh so, I love to give people a taste.
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Now, in chapter one, you talk about getting to know and accepting rejection and hearing no's can be really draining and really difficult, especially when we've been trained to expect and want a yes.
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Now now you mention in the book the contrarian principle and this is also one of the principles you mentioned in your other book, Blitzscaling.
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So, I wanted you to actually describe that principle to us and talk about how do we get used to hearing no and what is that no really asking us to do?
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So, the contrarian principle is in order to achieve something bold, different, of scale, frequently if it's an idea that lots and lots of people had, it's much harder to get there, whether as an entrepreneur or an investor.
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And so, you generally want to choose an idea, choose a path, choose a product or service, whatever, which is contrarian but right.
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It's very easy, of course, to be contrarian and wrong cuz there are many of those there's many foolish things to do in the world.
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And so, you go, "Well, no, no, where where a lot of people think that that might be wrong, but actually in fact you have had some insight or you and your team and your your colleagues, your friends have had some insight that you could say, "Okay, this is how we're going to do it."
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Now, part of how that gets to dealing with no's is say, for example, and by the way, generally speaking, it's a good idea you try to convert crises into opportunities.
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It's a precise kind of mindset strengthening exercises and balance and poise that you go across, you know, a set of podcasts with On Purpose, which is uh you don't really say, "Well, I just want to get a yes."
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And it's like, "Well, you're not going to just get a yes, especially if you have something that's bold and original and different cuz a bunch of people are going to say, 'Well, I don't get it.'" Right?
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Like, you know, like, "I don't get that people will want to buy flavored water without sugar. I don't get that."
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You know, there's all of these things that we go into on Masters of Scale that say, "Actually in fact, sometimes when you get a bunch of people who say, 'I don't get it,' that's precisely when you have something that's gold."
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Now, um so, the question is, "Well, how do you deal with the psychology of it?"
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And the answer is, "Well, approach no's not as a rejection of you, rejection of your idea, rejection It is obviously a form of rejection, but where you might be able to learn something from it, where you might be able to understand something about the way the world's working.
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So, if actually in fact um it's a certain kind of no where people say, "Oh, no.
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Everyone knows that you that that selling flavored water without sugar cuz everyone wants sugared water uh won't work."
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And you're like, "Aha, maybe I have something."
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Well, everybody knows that no stranger is going to rent uh a room or apartment to another stranger.
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Aha, I may have something.
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Um and so you you can bring those nos in and and then part of the categorization that we do within that first chapter cuz that's part of the reason why you open the book with this is to give you a sense of, well, which which way should you responding to different kinds of nos?
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Cuz sometimes it's a no and a thoughtful one from an expert that you should dig into some, understand some of why they think that.
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Sometimes it's a no that's uh it's a like a uh stereotype and just a reflection.
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And so then you understand it's a stereotype.
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Sometimes it's cuz the person's not engaging, in which case you should you should waste no more time with this person.
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And so, the that that's the kind of uh thing of treating it as a learning journey, which of course is fundamental to life and of course to entrepreneurship, is the way to reorient the mindset in order to um to to to say it's not rejection, it's part of the hero's journey you're on. Yes.
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Yeah, I'm glad you referenced the hero's journey there as well.
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And uh for those of you that have not read it, Joseph Campbell and and other writers have have spoken beautifully about the hero's journey.
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And and rejection is just such a beautiful part of it when you look back.
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And when you like you said, it's psychological.
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We think it's specific to the idea or the business.
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Actually, it's all psychological in in hearing no and being rejected and still finding a way to continue.
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And I really really resonate with that insight that you just shared around how one of our biggest challenges is that we are trying to get this unanimous yes and unanimous consent.
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And you say that in the book.
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You're just like, I you're actually dubious when there's unanimous consent because you're thinking to yourself, well, there must be this can't be good then.
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If everyone agrees with it, then then this can't be the right idea.
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And I found that so refreshing.
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Uh because I think we've been trained to think the other way that if everyone agrees, you're probably onto something, especially people in power.
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But if if people in power disagree with you, you're actually saying, well, there could be something to learn, but there could be an opportunity here as well.
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Uh one of the things that I wanted to ask you about this was is there something have you been able to in your life as an investor apply that?
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Or have you sometimes felt that no, this is definitely not going to work and then something became really successful?
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Or has there ever been a time when you thought, "Mm, I've thought about this.
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There's stuff to think about."
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Or have you stopped saying no?
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Have you started saying maybe, if, when? Or do you still say no?
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Oh, I definitely still say no.
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Cuz the average, you know, kind of a general partner of a venture firm looks at 600 to 800 deals a year and says yes to zero to two of them.
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Um and now, you generally speaking almost never will you rarely say no in a way that's kind of like no, never talk to me again.
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That's if someone's kind of just really not the right fit. Right?
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And it's just like, look, don't waste your time, don't waste my time. This this is good.
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Frequently, you'll say not right now when you try to partner with people and be good for entrepreneurs, the the not right now may very well be here's some of the challenges that I have right now and and I I hope and anticipate you're going to be really successful and maybe a future path is a time that we will talk about.
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Now, um there's a there's kind of this psychological categorization of false positives and false negatives, otherwise known as type one and type two errors.
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Very rarely, when you're doing things moving at speed like investing, if you're not making both type one and type two errors, both false positives and false negatives, you're not doing the game the right way, right?
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You're you're being too conservative one way or the other.
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So So, if you're too too many positives, then you're not making you know you're you know then you're making a set of mistakes and too many negatives, you're making a mistake.
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And so um And so for me, what I kind of look at this as is this kind of like I think entrepreneurship and investing has this kind of yin and yang bringing together that yes and the no, that hey, I could see this vision, but I see the risks, but I put it together and I make a decision.
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And I think that's part of what we find it to be, you know, kind of super interesting.
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And I think that's the uh that's the way I try to balance it, which means that uh frequently I will say no, although my most often no is trying to be helpful.
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Like like being the like you could almost look at the the other the side of the chapter was yes, I know that I'm saying no, but I'm trying to be as helpful as I possibly can to this person who's on this ridiculously hard journey.
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And this is their their at the moment their life's treasured work in so doing.
20:14
And so anyway, that a long kind of tendrilled answer to your question, but I think worth it.
20:19
No, no, no, great answer.
20:19
I'm really glad that you got in the weeds there, Reed. I appreciate it.
20:23
On the flip side, Reed, what is what's been one of the most surprising yeses that you've given or you've seen in investing of a company that we may or may not recognize, but what has been the most surprising yes you've ever seen, heard of, given yourself that maybe again, if you looked at it coherently, you would've been like, "Mhm, it was actually more intuitive. It was more a feeling.
20:44
It was more an experience. It was more just a gut."
20:49
Was has that ever happened? Do you see that?
20:51
Well, definitely, because both as entrepreneurs and as investors, when you're at the earliest stages, the seed, the series A, it's a vision where you don't know how to get from here to there, right?
21:03
You you you've got a theory of the game, but you don't actually know how to get there.
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And so uh and so frequently every yes involves a leap of faith, involves a look, I think this entrepreneur, you know, she or he, this team, this idea, this time, this technology, yeah, I think they could get there.
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And so every every yes has a little bit of that characteristic as these very early stage kind of judgments.
21:29
Perhaps the funniest one was Airbnb, which my very very first uh investment that I brought to Greylock.
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And I I was at Greylock because David Zee, who was my partner at Greylock, was my my most valuable board member at LinkedIn, you know, kind of like convert convinced me to come join Greylock.
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And I was like, "Oh, great."
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And they have the great culture of partnering with entrepreneurs and and feeling like you're the invited partner versus, you know, the you know, big man on campus as kind of a a way of collaborating with entrepreneurs.
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And so I bring in Airbnb and I'm like, "Oh, I think this is really interesting."
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And and David looks at me across the partnership table and says, "Well, every every venture capitalist has to have a deal that they fail on that they learn from, and Airbnb can be yours."
22:09
And so here here is this storied, amazing venture investor going, "Oh, this is a complete idiotic idea, but go ahead." Right?
22:19
And so and I thought about it.
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Now, it wasn't so much the intuitive part of the question, but I thought about it and I thought really hard and I went, "You know, I still think it's worth doing."
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So he's given me permission to do it.
22:27
So I'm going to go do it. Right?
22:30
And by the way, to David's credit, cuz he's a learner as well, 6 months later, no change in the data or anything else, he came to me and said, "You were totally right to make this investment.
22:38
What did you see that I didn't see?"
22:39
And I said, "Well, you were right. Cities could react.
22:43
It's a strange experience.
22:43
You know, hotel lobbies are going to react." All of this stuff.
22:51
The question is is if they had a good plan on all this stuff and the world they were building toward was the world we should be living in.
22:56
And if they could navigate through those landmines, it would be amazing.
23:03
Uh and so he was like, "Oh, okay, got it."
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And then, you know, off to more contrarian but seeking to be right investments. Yes, I love that.
23:09
And I love that question that he asked.
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He was like, "What did you see that I didn't see?"
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I mean, that that is such a cumulative wisdom opportunity.
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If you're If you're always asking that question, when you get something wrong or make a mistake or someone gets something right, I mean, the way that that can accelerate your learning and knowledge is is absolutely huge. Uh absolutely beautiful. I love that.
23:32
Chapter two's called do things that don't scale do things that don't scale.
23:37
Which, again, you're you're just playing with us, Reid.
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You're You're completely playing with us.
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I'm like, I'm reading a book on Masters of Scale.
23:42
You're now telling us things do things that don't scale.
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What do you think most startups do wrong in the early stages of their business?
23:51
Uh what are the biggest mistakes?
23:53
That question, we will going to be talking for the next 3 weeks.
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Cuz there are many, many ways to fail.
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It's one of the reasons why at Masters of Scale, we try to go and here's an interesting pattern to to possibly navigating the minefield.
24:05
Here's an interesting pattern.
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Here's a good sensor, you know, you know, kind of concepts for doing this.
24:10
Part of the reason why we put this in is because the natural thing that everyone goes, "Okay, we I got it. Scale's religion.
24:15
I'm only going to do things that scale."
24:17
And you actually in fact say, "Well, actually every successful entrepreneurial venture, all of these things that have gotten to scale, have done a set of things along the path that were essential to succeeding that were not themselves scale activities."
24:31
And And so people might buy into the religion too blindly.
24:35
And you actually say, "Look, I know that I only succeed when I really get to the scale, whether it's the business or climate change or wisdom.
24:44
But, if I don't do some things that are kind of experimenting with product market fit, uh taking some experiment and innovation, whether it's an organization or go to market, you know, the organization of how you run or go to market.
24:57
If I'm not doing some of that, I may miss that critical path that unlocks the journey to magic at scale, the the journey to how this this really works in transforming the world and society we're living in.
25:11
And so there's a whole set of different kinds of techniques where you go, well, that won't scale, so we're never going to do it.
25:15
It's like, well, look, if you think it's really important, experiment with it.
25:17
See what's doable, and then you go, wow, it's really important.
25:21
Okay, so what version of this might I be able to scale?
25:25
And that's that's that's essentially the through line through the chapter, which of course opens with, you know, Brian Chesky and Airbnb again. Yes, absolutely.
25:33
Yeah, no, I I think that that again is a really significant note because it's it's so easy to just get lost in the numbers, and I really feel that it's it's even with the work I do, I found that ultimately, can you help one person have an incredible experience?
25:53
And and when you can do that for one person, you get trusted to do it 10, and then a 1000, and then 100,000, then a million, and a billion, whatever it may be.
26:02
It's the idea of like I really feel like being able to give one person a unique experience, and under you just learn so much about that.
26:11
Uh and you learn so I know that any any founders that I know, they say, you know, they spend all their time looking at customer service in the beginning to try and figure out like what part of the journey were people not truly feeling was working or was flowing for them.
26:26
There's such a attention to detail there, which is often ignored when it's like, oh, we've got this many sales already.
26:31
Uh do you know Could you give any examples, and again, you don't need to name names, Reed, of any companies that actually started off right, but maybe didn't apply some of this wisdom, and and you saw them fall off.
26:43
And again, I'm not trying to point fingers or name names, I'm trying to understand more that Have you seen that where it looks like everything's going great, but then there's something that isn't external but internal that breaks down.
26:55
Well, there's a number and to some degree any of the ones that were super hot once upon a time and then went away.
27:02
Uh Webvan or you know, kind of all advantage or uh an early search engines excite or kind of excited home.
27:08
There's There's all of these things that said, "Look, something broke along that path to scale."
27:14
There's also ones that then like also failed to get to scale.
27:16
There are those patterns as well.
27:18
And so, it's a whole set of things where you know, part of the the journey of scaling as the problem changes.
27:25
Like we opened with a discussion of entrepreneurships or entrepreneurs are problem solvers.
27:30
Too often one of the things that happens when you problem solves, "Oh, I solved this version of the problem and so I've got the tool. That's the hammer.
27:35
I'm going to keep doing it."
27:36
And the scale journeys involve, you know, and that's why we have another chapter learn to unlearn is changing the tool set up and the path that got you here is not necessarily the path that will get you there.
27:47
And so, sometimes you have to say, "Well, that really That really helped us launch our product, but the scale model is actually in fact doing deep embedded into SEO and Google or the scale model is moving to telesales and an enterprise model to it to to bring to my product.
28:06
And for example, like one of the things that was not anticipated at LinkedIn is we thought for the first X years it would all be individuals only and we thought individuals would expense their their recruiting or their sales or their problem solving to the company, but we found that the company started knocking at our door almost before we'd launched our subscription product going, "Well, we want an enterprise product." It was like, "Oh."
28:29
And And by the way, this is kind of classic entrepreneurship is we went, "Okay, so we listened."
28:32
We said, "Well, that's different than our plan. How do we measure this?
28:35
How do we have a a bias to speed, action and learning?"
28:40
And we said, "Okay, well, let's create a PowerPoint deck that describes a product by the way at this moment is totally fictional.
28:46
Like we literally sat around for a weekend and said, "The product could look like this.
28:51
So, let's mock it up, create a PowerPoint deck, and then go out and say, 'Well, this is the product we're working on.
28:56
What do you think about it? Would you buy it?'" Right?
28:57
And the first sales people were very entrepreneurial.
29:01
They're not the same as the scale success sales people that LinkedIn has now, but those that came back and they said, "Well, we got some weird feedback on this one. We should change that."
29:08
But this is the product we think a bunch of people will initially buy, and so then we went and built it. Wow.
29:15
And that's kind of classic for these kind of entrepreneurial journeys. Yeah, I love that. I love that.
29:19
It's always I find that in all successful entrepreneur journeys, you see this pivot.
29:23
You see this moment where you're now creating something that wasn't the plan.
29:27
It wasn't the business model.
29:29
It wasn't the way you thought you were going to get to success or scale or or speed rarely comes from something internally as well, right?
29:38
It comes from how the customer's using it, playing with it.
29:40
Who's who's asking the right questions?
29:44
Uh in chapter three read, you talk about the big idea. What is the big idea?
29:46
And I feel like and I'm asking this question.
29:51
You probably I mean you probably get this question all the time.
29:54
I think it's important to ask it because I do think this is the majority of people that that I connect to, that I meet, that I hear when I'm when I'm recording the podcast is I think I have an idea but I'm too scared to take action on it or take it seriously because the whole journey seems overwhelming.
30:16
Do I have to fundraise or not?
30:19
Do I have the skills or not?
30:22
Are there too many competitors that are doing the same thing?
30:25
Is my idea even original?
30:27
Uh I saw 10 companies like this fail last year.
30:32
These are the things that go through our head and then the most basic one, what will my friends say when this doesn't work out, right?
30:38
Like the most the what will my parents think of me that I left my college education to do this or I quit law to do this?
30:47
These are the kind of things we're hearing all the time.
30:50
What do you say to people when they say that to you or when you see that when you hear that?
30:55
And I get that that's a big broad question, but how do you try and help people narrow it down?
30:58
It's a very complicated question cuz it comes down a lot down to the individual and the individuals goals, purposes, you know, strategy, risk tolerance, what kind of activity they want.
31:11
And so you have to you have to always condition it based on it.
31:14
Now, a few general principles, which again apply very differently depending on you know, kind of kind of who you are is and in what circumstances you're in.
31:24
How much risk can you take?
31:26
Entrepreneurship always involves risk even if you think you've de-risked the idea a lot, there's always a lot of unknown unknowns and part of entrepreneurship you have to deal with the unknown unknowns in order to in order to do this.
31:39
I think there's a question around you you don't do an entrepreneurial idea unless you can think of yourself doing it for the next 10 years because part of success is like would this be worth at least 10 years of my life in so doing? And if not, then great.
31:55
Not the thing that you need to do. Right?
31:59
And then when you go and talk to your friends about it and try to get some wisdom of the crowds around how does the thing work?
32:06
You don't ask them, do you like the idea?
32:08
You don't ask them, do you think it can work?
32:10
Because they will think that you what you want is reassurance.
32:14
What you want to say, what won't work about this idea?
32:16
What what would could cause the idea to fail?
32:22
Because if you get that feedback and then you begin to aggregate this, this also gets back to the learning from those that we're talking about.
32:29
You aggregate that feedback, then you have a better chance of taking smart risks including choosing whether or not to do it.
32:37
Now, one last little kind of kind of pro-entrepreneurial tip for people who are daunted, which is another thing that good entrepreneurs do is they kind of figure out how to experiment.
32:49
So, you say, "Well, I've got this idea.
32:50
It's an idea for a new app.
32:50
Maybe it's an idea for a mindfulness or wisdom app or something."
32:54
You say, "Well, all right.
32:57
Um but I'm really nervous about doing this. What could I do?"
32:58
Well, I could go uh buy some, you know, kind of uh I could go put up a webpage, describe what it is, say, "Click on Click on here if you're interested in this."
33:07
And then buy some advertising against it.
33:09
And then see what the click-throughs look like.
33:12
And if the click-throughs look totally fantastic, then it's like, "Well, maybe shoot, that's data.
33:16
Maybe I should go do this."
33:17
And I cuz I've described it all this.
33:19
And if the click-throughs look bad, then you can say, "Well, maybe I didn't do the experiment the right way, or maybe maybe I shouldn't do this." Right?
33:25
And so, there's ways to experiment with things.
33:29
People too often get stuck in their mind when when uh do and then reflect think, do reflect think, right?
33:37
And and be in that cycle on a relatively quick basis is central to solving these unknown unknown problems.
33:45
Yeah, I'm so glad you added that last piece.
33:47
I I feel like experimenting is is one of the greatest assets and skill.
33:55
And the best thing about experiments are they can be free or very cheap.
33:57
They can be very quick to do.
34:01
You don't have to build for a year or, you know, waste time in your life.
34:06
You could literally build it this weekend if you felt like it and tested something.
34:09
And you get immediate feedback and response from people that are not connected to your family or your friends or people that you feel, "Oh, well, they're saying it because they're connected or they don't like it because I'm their friend and they know me and they want me to stay safe."
34:25
And so, I could agree with you more that I remember when I when I first was starting what I was doing, I think experimenting even today has always been my favorite way of realizing whether I should do something or not.
34:38
And I love it because anyone who's sitting there going, "It costs too much."
34:44
Experimenting is free or cheap. Please remember that. Uh "It takes too long." No, it doesn't.
34:48
This could literally happen this weekend.
34:49
And oh, it's uh you know, well, who's going to use it anyway? You have no idea. That's the fun of it.
34:57
And so, I'm so happy you you really emphasize that point at the end there because there's no better way to see whether your idea actually has legs. Uh and oh, yes, please. Read. Go ahead.
35:08
Yeah, let me add one thing to this, which is people always think experiment is out in the world.
35:12
Sometimes the experiment's with yourself, too.
35:14
How does this make you feel?
35:16
Do you feel stressed by it?
35:16
Do you feel energized by it?
35:18
That experimentation is also good.
35:20
We have this presumption cuz we're we're in our own heads that we're the best experts of ourselves.
35:26
And the answer is of course we have a depth of experience and all the rest.
35:29
But actually, in fact, we have blind spots to ourselves.
35:31
We we have unknown unknowns about ourselves.
35:32
And experimenting is useful there, too. Yes, for sure.
35:38
I think that's I mean, that deep check-in with ourselves is potentially why when we ignore that, it's why we're seeking approval and validation from outside because we've not really sense checked the idea, the experience with ourselves.
35:52
And I've often found the other way around that I've been so sure about my decisions.
35:58
And pretty much everyone in the room is is saying no, but I'm still going to do it because I feel so sure.
36:01
And and I've always felt that that internal surety and assurance and confidence has actually made me feel stronger than even when everyone else agrees.
36:10
And it wasn't for the same reason as you said earlier.
36:14
For me, when I'm in a room when everyone agrees, it feels uncomfortable if I am not sure.
36:21
And I think often we're trying to make other people's assurances make up for our lack of assurance.
36:24
But that actually never works, and it never feels right, whereas it's the other way around.
36:28
Your assurance can make up for everyone's lack of assurance and push the idea through.
36:34
I see you nodding and laughing, so I feel like, "Okay, I'm I'm understanding. I'm getting this right."
36:39
Chapter four read was the one that I am most in love with, and it's because it's where I am at in my journey uh in terms of culture for my company, culture for my teams, you know, where we've been fast growing for the last few years uh across my different ventures and different organizations.
36:56
We have probably around 50 people now.
36:59
Uh it's and it's not always people that I meet and see all the time.
37:02
There's people working internationally.
37:03
There's uh there's people across working across time zones and in different areas of our company where I have chief operating officers and other individuals who manage them on a day-to-day basis.
37:12
And as someone who is also uh quote-unquote using industry language, not seeing myself this way, talent and CEO, it's it's an interesting position to be in, and it's something that I realized that I spent a lot of years trying to choose and figure out which one, and I only just feel this year I've kind of figured out how I want to balance the two.
37:34
And so when your chapter four is dedicated to what you call the never-ending ending project, which is culture.
37:41
And I believe I'm on a culture 2.
37:43
0 for for my work and and what I'm trying to create.
37:46
And you talk a lot about how your first employees in the company are important.
37:53
Uh and you say if your company is dominated by one type of person, your collective blind spots will add up to tunnel vision.
38:00
And which I which I thought was fascinating, but the part of culture that I find most interesting is being able to sustain, continually inspire, and create a culture that people also want to be a part of.
38:17
Now, recruitment, retention, and reward are all part of that puzzle.
38:24
Let's go through each of them.
38:24
Let's start with recruitment.
38:28
What has been your favorite way of knowing you've made a good hire?
38:34
What has been your favorite method, approach, tactic to hiring that is deeply helped or one that you've seen through the podcast that you've been blown away by?
38:42
So, I think one of the really key things to do well is to not make hiring a solo journey for you as founder or CEO or for any manager or executive.
38:56
But rather make both the hiring decisioning at least moderately a group journey, not just cuz of buying in the group and all the rest, but even if you're like, "Look, I'm hiring a new um you know, VP of people.
39:05
It's a It's the beginning of an organization, but you're like, "And I will report to the CEO, but I wouldn't just do it as only the CEO."
39:15
So, that's one part of the hiring.
39:15
But then, the next part gets really critical, which is make other people like make a group responsible for the onboarding.
39:26
So that part of um how a person comes up to speed quickly on the culture, begins to add to it is not just the discussions that you have during the interviewing and reference checking and other kinds of things in the process, but also during the initial parts of work.
39:40
Because if you have that, then you have the whole or you know, a proxy of the organization reaching out and helping with that onboarding.
39:48
And then, that gets to the detail of your question because how do you know that you've made a magnificent hire is when call it the three people or five people that you've made jointly responsible for the onboarding all come back and say, "Oh, this the this new person, she's great.
40:06
Oh, this new person, you know, he's really interesting and he's you know, doing well."
40:09
And so, because then you can say, "Ah, I've got a lot of different touchpoints."
40:14
And by the way, of course, one of the things is if you get three of them or two of them saying, "Hey, great."
40:18
and the other two going, "I don't know."
40:19
You go, "Okay, well, what's the I don't know?
40:21
Do I need to make an adjustment?"
40:22
That's not necessarily an adjustment of the person joining the organization, but you want to do all of the stuff early. Right?
40:27
Cuz you Usually, when you have this magnificent partnering between new employees and the organization they're working, it starts on a very strong foot.
40:39
It It's It's rare that it starts on a weak foot and then converts.
40:41
So, you want as much of that initial strength as possible and you need the organization to kind of collectively work at it.
40:50
And then, by the way, ultimately make a decision cuz like uh if you go if you're 60 days in and you're like, "This is a mistake."
40:55
then you want to fix the mistake as as quickly, but also as humanly as possible. Yes.
41:01
Yeah, I I I really appreciate that advice.
41:03
I think that's the mistake I made first time round.
41:07
Uh the whole recruitment approach was one person led.
41:11
It was very, very difficult to figure it out.
41:13
And you're so right that as soon as we switched to a more uh group-based system, that in effect And And it's hard in the beginning because sometimes there isn't that big a group.
41:24
Uh in the beginning, it is just you.
41:26
And And so, you're kind of relying on yourself, but I like the idea of including people even if they're not full-time, even if they're people that work with you freelance or part-time that you trust and love.
41:36
You may even have someone involved that you value in your personal life as part of the interview process.
41:43
I I I think that we think of that as weird or awkward, but it's not at all because there may be someone in your personal life who you believe really understands you and knows you that could help with that process.
41:54
So, I I think that's such a such a great way of thinking about it and such a simple way of solving the problem.
41:58
Uh let's move on to retention, uh keeping that culture, growing that culture, preserving it, expanding it.
42:05
What are certain cultural principles?
42:07
Every company has their own culture and everyone has their own deck and everyone puts their own words on the wall.
42:15
What are some that you think are underlying all good company culture?
42:17
Are there some key pillars, key themes that you believe are just integral to any successful company that kind of go beyond industry boundaries and and backgrounds?
42:29
Well, I think there's patterns that you want in every culture.
42:33
It doesn't necessarily mean they're instantiated the same way.
42:33
So, it's it's kind of the question of like what does excellence look like here?
42:38
We always search search excellence, but what is excellence for us?
42:42
Like it should a culture should always be seeking excellence, but specific, not we seek excellence, but like our excellence is this sort. Like we are thoughtful.
42:50
We are uh multi-stakeholder holder inclusive.
42:56
It's like what are the top priorities in terms of what you're doing?
43:00
Um another one is this is how we define our team play.
43:05
This is the kind of way that we hold each other accountable.
43:07
Um part of defining a culture is like, for example, where should every employee be able to hold the founder or the CEO accountable?
43:15
What what what should they hold that person accountable for?
43:17
Like what's the way that we are running in that?
43:19
And I think that's part of like what the pattern of that is.
43:23
So, like are we we are move fast or we are uh take intelligent risks or we are act like owners, you know, all of these things could be very good cultural elements, but which one particularly define us?
43:39
And even though there might be a list of 20 virtues, part of culture is like with these are the ones we most focus on.
43:44
These are the ones we most hold each other accountable to.
43:45
These are the ones that like when when we're cross-checking um how we're evolving, how we're playing the game, how we're getting to scale, that cross-checking is still the thing that with each other that drives us forward.
43:59
And you want to set that from the very earliest days. It grows, it can change.
44:04
The mistake that people frequently have a thing about culture is they think like a culture deck.
44:07
They think it's like, you know, the the 10 Commandments.
44:10
You know, it's like it comes written in stone.
44:12
And you're like, "No, no, culture evolves."
44:14
And so you want to have the right organism, the right set of people who are adding to it, who when you when you when you bring in a new person, they're part of that organism, too, also adding to it, and also helping it, you know, adapt and change and expand with a foundation that's still organic and developing. Yes. Yes.
44:33
One of one of the way ones that I think work like that for me was as an entrepreneur, one of your values naturally is risk-taking. It's expression. It's It's failing. It's figuring it out.
44:46
And I realized that actually for my team, one of their biggest values was the exact opposite, and it was safety.
44:54
And I started to realize how important safety was to team members.
44:57
And to me, that blows my mind because I was just like, "I've never looked for safety in my life anywhere."
45:02
Uh and and it's so easy to get caught up in building a culture that is only for you, but not everyone can work that way.
45:11
And I started to recognize how certain things we did, even though we didn't do it uh to have this impact, it would be seen as unsafe to someone, even though it was never from that mindset.
45:23
The mindset was always growth and building and doing more amazing things, but how not bringing people on that journey made them feel unsafe.
45:29
And so that one for me was a huge one that I had to realize that this idea of being proactive and risk-driven and all this actually had to like be completely reverse-engineered uh into a feeling of just safety and support, uh which which was new to me.
45:46
And by the way, the nuance, of course, which I'm certain was part of your journey, is uh which parts of safety?
45:52
Which were the fundamental It's not safety on everything, safety on everywhere.
45:54
It's which were the key parts that are part of this organization, this set of team play.
46:00
And that's part of organic cultural evolution. Yes. Yes.
46:05
No, and and that's why yeah, I I think that that nuance is is so clear that we live at a time where everyone's just like, well, should I make a company that's risky or that's this and it's so much more about embracing polarities than it is about choosing one or the other blanketly because that doesn't apply that doesn't work either.
46:23
So, no, I I love that distinction and and so important.
46:25
Uh chapter seven that I wanted to dive in and I'm I'm mixing and skipping now uh is, you know, watch what they do not what they say.
46:33
And and in terms of looking at the customer and I find that this is something that some people have an innate ability to spot patterns and notice how people are interacting and you know, sometimes I feel like my mind works like an algorithm and I feel like my mind's like just connecting dots and stuff.
46:51
Uh but at the same time, what are some of the most practical ways you've seen companies really listen, learn, and watch their customers or people before they become customers.
47:03
What have been some of the most masterful ways that companies have actually made systematized that?
47:06
Well, there's a whole set and it goes from obviously consumer internet, which tends to be the software telemetry in terms of what's going on, to even physical hardware.
47:18
Like for example, watching on like one of the things the earliest things that's taught in design school from decades ago was watch the unboxing experience.
47:28
Because while people you might say, what most What did you most love? What did you most hate?
47:31
The person may not realize that the thing that caused them to start on the wrong foot was like for example, a weird unboxing experience.
47:41
And so, the general truth of the matter is is you always want to spend a little bit of time kind of observing a kind of an unguided and unforced interaction with the product or service that you're trying to do.
47:55
And sometimes you need a lot of time, sometimes you need a lot of people doing that, but you want to get some sense of it.
48:02
Um because if you don't have that sense uh and some people of course are just totally natural at that that intuition.
48:08
This is among the, you know, the brilliances of the Steve Jobs and so forth.
48:12
But if you don't get that sense, then you could make some very fundamental bad assumptions, bad judgments.
48:19
And too often very very few of us should totally prioritize, you know, I am genius. I know the product.
48:26
Um it's always like, you know, be learning.
48:28
Be learning from other people, be learning from watching.
48:32
And, you know, like for example, one of the things that I think people are under appreciate uh in the kind of the the Steve Jobs canon is how much that every time he kind of found an interesting new product, even one that he thought was completely bonkers, he would invite the founder by for lunch or for breakfast or for coffee and talk to them because a way of learning uh as a way of doing that.
48:54
And I think that um is a similar kind of tactile uh nature of that.
48:58
And so I think that's the that's the thing as is to is to try to get some observation and some engagement there is I think critical for every entrepreneur. Wow.
49:09
And and that's the side of Steve Jobs that's often not talked about or or not often shared.
49:12
And and you know, it's it's really fascinating.
49:17
I For me, Steve Jobs has been such a um inspiration in so many ways by you know, studying his life and studying decisions, choices, his spiritual background, his, you know, that is such a fascinating individual.
49:30
And I think again, when we look at entrepreneurs and when we study entrepreneurs, it's so important to not start putting them in boxes uh and and then trying to choose which personality type we are because uh people are so much more complex and multi-layered and textured.
49:45
Like each interesting entrepreneurial journey is somewhat sui generis.
49:48
So while there are archetypes that you should pay attention to, whether that's Union or anything else.
49:54
The notion of what you're doing is you're creating something new.
49:58
Um and by the way, that you don't want to invent everything across the whole spectrum.
50:01
You want to focus set of new things.
50:02
Usually the product or service, sometimes in the way you go to market, sometimes in the way you organize it organize.
50:09
But one mistake that's kind of entertaining that entrepreneurs make is they invent new on everything.
50:11
And And actually, in fact, it is sui generis, it is unique and then I I specific subset of inventions are what's key. I love that.
50:21
That's That's That's such a interesting and new way of thinking about it as well that I I don't think that, you know, we've all fully considered.
50:30
Reed, we've got a few more moments left with you.
50:31
I've got a ton more questions for you, but I'm going to I'm going to be I'm going to narrow some of them down.
50:36
I I wanted to ask you before we dive into what we call the final five on On Purpose, which is our fast five.
50:43
I wanted to ask you, we were speaking earlier before we came live and we were talking about purpose and you were talking about how Masters of Scale is like philanthropic, it's service-based, it's extension, right?
50:54
How important At what point is purpose important?
50:58
Is it important from the beginning?
50:59
Is it Does it usually evolve later for entrepreneurs?
51:02
Where does it fit into the puzzle of joy, happiness, success?
51:06
And where have you seen it been most beautifully incorporated?
51:11
Frequently entrepreneurs can make a mistake here because they're they go, "Look, there's this market opportunity, this technology enables this, I see this competitive space opening up.
51:23
I see that I can now do this with this new technology.
51:25
I can offer this product that's now based on the cloud or based on AI or based on mobile."
51:29
And that's all very by the way, very important.
51:34
It's super relevant to the success of the entrepreneurial journey.
51:38
But these entrepreneurial journeys, they're team sports.
51:40
They're not individual sports.
51:43
And as part of a team sport and part of the reason why like whenever you look at any team organization, sports teams, you know, military teams, other things, is that esprit de corps that that that we're in this together and that it matters that we're in this and that we we have pride that we're in this, pride with each other, pride with our families, pride with um the society.
52:02
And that is all part of having a purpose, part of having a mission.
52:07
And so defining that, like why what is the world that we are seeking to make better?
52:13
And by the way, it doesn't have like Obviously, the people trying to cure cancer is super important.
52:16
But there's lots of aspects to making society better.
52:20
This is how we are doing that.
52:22
This is why that the thing that we're adding in is so important.
52:25
And so I think that that's important from the very earliest seedling of the idea within all of these projects, but especially the entrepreneurial where you're trying to build these institutions that help transform society at scale.
52:42
And so I think it's it's one of the things to to start with on day zero. That's brilliant. I love hearing that.
52:49
That's music to my ears, of course.
52:51
Uh and the on purpose community because I I really believe that it it's always there from the birth of the idea and the purpose is what keeps you going and keeps you persevering and keeps you through all those crazy late nights and early mornings and lack of sleep and the breakdown.
53:06
Like the only thing that keeps you going is your purpose, whatever that may be. So I love hearing that.
53:12
Now Reid, I want to ask you the final five.
53:14
Uh these are the fast five where you have to answer the questions in one word or one sentence maximum.
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So you have one sentence.
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Uh please feel free to play with that.
53:24
Reid, these are your fast five. Are you ready? I hope so. Awesome. I love it.
53:29
So the first question I have for you is what is the best entrepreneurship advice you've ever received?
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Make decisions quickly and recover when you need to. Nice. Okay, great answer.
53:43
What is the worst entrepreneurship advice you've ever received or given?
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Persevere against all odds.
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Oh, and it And and the answer is cuz you need to learn, right?
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So, it isn't only perseverance, it's also adaptation. Yes, absolutely.
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Pivoting, learning, adapting, re- regenerating completely if that's if that's what it takes. Okay, third question.
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What is something that you once valued uh that you no longer value? Crazy hard work.
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And what I mean by that was is kind of a youthful thing, which is when you're 18, you're like, "Ah, you should pull an all-nighter.
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You should show that you could do it by pulling three all-nighters."
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And now I'm definitely of the working smart.
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You have to work hard on all these journeys, but working smart is is the important governor on working hard. I love that. Great.
54:33
Uh question number four, what's a daily habit that you don't negotiate with that you always do no matter what? Adequate sleep. Mm.
54:44
How how how many hours do you sleep?
54:45
Minimum six uh with the occasional um frequently weekends uh go to eight.
54:49
Try to have one or two nights usually on mornings usually on the weekends where you don't set an alarm and you wake up when your your body is like, "Okay, I'm ready."
54:58
Part of this is because we go through life, we make decisions all the time.
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We make multiple decisions all the day.
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And if you're making bad decisions, you're going to err.
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And so, you have to be cognitively in the right place, which of course is also mindfulness and purpose.
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But sleep is the baseline. I love that.
55:14
That's such a great one, such an important habit and underestimated.
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As a monk, I didn't sleep very much.
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Uh but today I I sleep is one of my biggest values, too.
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I I can couldn't agree more.
55:24
All right, fifth and final question, Reid, is if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
55:33
Listen first, then speak.
55:33
Very very great advice and would be an amazing law. Read Hoffman everyone.
55:38
The book is called Masters of Scale, same name as the podcast.
55:42
Surprising truths from the world's most successful entrepreneurs.
55:47
You can go out and grab it right now. You will not regret it.
55:49
You may want to get it for a friend and family member, too.
55:53
Read, again, it has been such a joy talking to you and even through this screen, I feel your friendliness, I feel your kindness, I feel your graciousness. It's it's truly special. It's truly special.
56:06
I've had this experience and and actually the only time the other time I had it this week was actually with someone in person.
56:13
But but with you, I'm feeling it through the screen, which is really special.
56:14
So, I want to thank you for being so present, for being so conscious for our community and our audience today.
56:20
You've really served them beautifully with your experience, wisdom, insight.
56:24
I really really hope everyone goes and grabs a copy.
56:28
I can't wait for people to read it and I really again hope to see you in person very soon.
56:32
So, yeah, thank you so much. Well, me too.
56:35
If any of you have been listening or watching, make sure that you tweet, Instagram, tag me and Reed because we'd love to see what are the nuggets of wisdom that you're going to apply.
56:44
What's the thing that you're practicing, experimenting with, exploring?
56:47
I love being able to see what you're taking away from these episodes because they help me understand which questions to ask, what to improve, what to make better.
56:56
So, please please please tag me and Reed and again, thank you so much for listening to On Purpose and Reed, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
57:04
If you want even more videos just like this one, make sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here.
57:09
I'm also excited to let you know that you can now get my book Think Like a Monk from thinklikeamonkbook. com.
57:19
Check below in the description to make sure you order today.