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I didn't see this coming.
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I'm excited to talk about it.
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Um there's so much I want to get into on this record.
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Uh there's so much life you've been living, bro.
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Uh on this record and um but but we should talk about about uh the internet. We should talk about it.
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>> I'm on a I'm on a uh >> you look great.
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I mean, Luna know what everyone is saying is bang on true.
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Um, you know, I think the combination of healthy lifestyle decisions, happiness, and some equilibrium has really brought your cheekbones to the focus.
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>> I appreciate you saying that.
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Compliments are a dagger in the chest.
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I'm not uh so I should go. I know.
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I might get my inner critic out. I can take it.
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Uh it did it did um occur to me though when you were talking a little bit about how you found yourself um on that evening walking on the catwalk wearing clothes looking great and doing a great job of it.
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Uh what really struck me through all of that was that that's kind of Kaka and I just loved that.
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I just love that this band that you formed as a teenager and just went out and and did these and we've talked a bit about this.
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Did these shows in the desert for just you and your friends continues to, you know, evolve in people's lives, you know, >> but I also I I just took that as um something you did with your friends just for the love of it continues on.
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And I I um because someone else asked me, "Oh, why did you do that?"
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And I thought it was an odd question.
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>> Why did you Why did you do the show?
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>> Why did you do Why did you walk on the runway? >> Why wouldn't you?
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>> Yeah, that that's what I was saying, too.
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>> I think at this point in our lives, the answer is yes, isn't it? >> Right. Yeah.
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Well, it's just um you know um >> for things like that. >> Yeah.
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just saying yes to things that are interesting and enjoying yourself and not sweating or anything.
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>> Yeah, get out of your head.
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Who has time for that now?
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I've spent a lot of time in my head and I don't really want to go back over that that stuff. >> It's dark in there. Um >> Yeah.
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>> No, I I uh >> Yeah, I want to I I'm not sweating any anything.
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I just want to enjoy myself and >> Yeah.
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>> And uh things can change awfully fast. You just enjoy yourself. Don't sweat it.
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That's definitely a thread through the >> I had a really good time doing that, too.
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It was It was so interesting to see another world where like there were three seamstresses and but they were in the corner and you just walk by them and they would say, "Wait, this button is off. Hold on, take that."
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And that sort of focus and passion, the amount that they gave a was so cool.
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Everyone gave a at every turn.
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people who I in my life who are very important to me who are younger.
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I'm like find the smallest little speck of light in through there and just super serve it >> and it will get bigger and bigger and more light will happen.
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That that is that's what gets people into that room doing that job.
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It's what gets you into the desert doing what you did and then you set this music free >> and then decades later someone's like, "Hey, this shit's inspiring me and I kind of want to like talk to you about it."
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And the easiest way I can do that is to hire you to walk in my clothes.
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>> Well, the the thing is I >> which works for everybody. >> Yeah. I've been I'm 53.
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I I've been walking for 52 years.
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So I'm >> you know good at I've been doing it a long time.
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>> Although you have struggled with it at times, too.
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I mean, you know, it's it's you've had some knee injuries. You've had some >> Yeah.
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But I I still walked right through that nonetheless >> or into it.
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Still one of my favorite stories you ever told me about the German couple that came up to you after the show and said to you it was sad. >> Yeah.
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We drove 8 hours to see you. It was sad.
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And then my first instinct was to hit them with my crutches.
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>> I was like you son of a >> They were already halfway to the bar and you're raining not men water, >> you know?
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Like what a difficult time for us all apparently. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah.
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Well, I think back to those times, too, and I'm like, and that's that's the other thing the internet's been doing, which is actually a lull.
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I know you didn't want to be dragged into it, but too bad.
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Uh, they're doing picture A and picture B, which which my kids have done to me, where they take an image of you looking like you care about yourself in your 50s cuz we need to, and they put it next to a picture of you in your 20s or 30s where you couldn't have been cruer to yourself.
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>> You couldn't have been meaner to yourself.
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>> Well, it's an experimental phase.
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You know, in your 20s, you think I'm doing something no one has ever done before, >> hating myself >> and and uh and you say you do a lot of, "Oh, watch this."
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And then something Rupiculame follows that, right?
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>> Um but I think that experimental phase is of course completely necessary.
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I'm just not uh quite there anymore, you know.
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>> Let's talk about that. >> Okay.
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>> Um cuz I've >> All right.
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>> Cuz I've cuz I've known you through a lot of it.
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I mean, we met end of the century. Um, and uh >> Whoa. >> statement. >> Uh, yeah, we did.
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>> And, um, you know, I it's it's been an incredible life that I've I've dipped in and out of vicariously and and been fortunate enough to hear you tell stories, but when I kind of put it through the through the kind of beats of it, I'm like, "Wow, this is a tapestry, this thing you've been on."
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And I feel like this album is the only album you could have made at a time where you're coming into a new clearing because it really does feel like you're kind of trying to process love and self love and being comfortable in yourself.
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Is that also a theme it feels to me a little bit like >> well I you know I think mono nobody here gets out alive up Solar Drive.
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The ghost on the spiral stairs hates you loves you. needs you. Please come home. >> Yeah.
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>> Well, um, have you heard of this band, Wheelchair Sports Camp? >> Yes. >> They're amazing. >> Awesome. >> Yeah. Amazing.
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>> They're coming on tour with us and I'm really excited. >> That's awesome.
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>> And they're incredible.
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And I was watching an interview with her and she said uh this really eloquent, you know, just synopsized certainly how I feel right now was like if as you're getting older, if your music isn't getting more personal, it you know, >> what are you doing?
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>> Yeah, it should be getting more personal that should be the discovery, you know.
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And uh and I think I also realized the temporary I've been reminded the nature the temporary nature of all this every situation is situational.
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So, you know, you just try to handle that one the best you can.
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And and uh and sometimes we play mellow, sometimes we play loud, and there's no reason to think that any one of these phases is the final.
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It's how it's always going to be, you know.
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Um but you're a weird band.
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It's not like, you know, you found a a formula on on on the first album and stuck to it.
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you're a weird band and you've been moving in weird territories ever since, but this actually feels very cohesive in terms of the writing and and the theme of the record. It did.
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>> Well, because they're sonically different and they're pulled from all these worlds.
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Um, it wasn't going to be that that made the sort of continuity, but that seemed kind of cool that they would all sonically seem that they were born of different worlds in different spaces. Mh.
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>> But the cohesion was the theme of love and which is something I probably wouldn't have been able to uh allow myself to write about the different facets of that you know um >> why >> um I think because it's it's for the same reason it feels wonderful and simple to join in with someone or or help them, but to ask for it or to love yourself is is feels really has felt challenging.
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>> Well, that's why I love Mono so much because I feel it's it's I love the whole album, but um looking back on it now, do you think you've have you ever really actually been alone?
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been alone? Like if you think about it like you start this band it's 13 14 years old you hang with all your friends that leads to another you break that breaks up screaming trees you go on the road with them it's Queens the stone age it's tour it's music it's this is that
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it's a genuine question like have you have you ever really truly felt comfortable up until this point which is what I think the record sounds like to me where you're actually okay in your own skin >> well I well I think those are a couple separate things you know I've I've spent a lot of I'm alone. You know, there's
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You know, there's it's not it it's it would appear to be a seamless passing of a baton, but there's lots of time in between there.
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And I think the touring existence on the one hand keeps a little bit of an arrested development uh going because every night is Saturday and you're sort of u participating in in someone else's version of Saturday all the time. Yep.
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>> Um and then when that's over, you wake up completely alone.
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>> Um even though you're on tour with people, that that interior loneliness starts getting louder.
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Um and then when you have a family, um and you finally have something that's more important than music, um that distance gets really loud.
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um when you're on tour and you see people, you know, you you walk through a city um by yourself kind of contemplating what it is you're doing and >> and and I'm not complaining.
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It's just this is some of the stuff that occurs out there and >> and you find yourself windowshopping other people's lives.
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You see young couples, >> you know, um on a first date.
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You see I've seen, you know, marriage proposals.
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I've seen fights and breakups and you see families in the park.
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You see, you know, fist fights, you um you see flirting, you see all this stuff.
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And but often times the it's it's not alone.
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It's loneliness that um feeling at beyond arms length.
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You're in the spirit world.
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Anyone who's touring is is kind of a little bit of a spirit. It's like ghostly. It's like I'm here.
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You can see me, but I'm not in your world in Arkansas right now. Yeah.
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>> I'm on the bus going to Missouri. >> Yeah.
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You're wait you're waiting and thinking and and um you're contemplating.
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You're left with lots of time to do that and and and um as you said, it's it's not a complaint or or a benefit.
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It's just a reality of of that.
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And um and when you have something a family at home, their life is going on and what they're doing is getting accustomed to a life without you in those moments. >> Yeah.
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>> And uh you you you >> you have to figure out what that means and how you feel about that.
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I I found that really challenging.
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I mean, there's there's been in the past there's been aspects of of uh being in a band that's been really confusing for me and al and also it wasn't my intention to be the the front man and um and haven't always wanted that and felt there's some responsibility.
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I think also when you watch a really great frontman and you're touring with somebody and you think, "Oh, I I suppose I should be doing that, you know, but that feels far away."
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that feels far away." And so you you say uh you know you find yourself trying to grow into something into into some version that feels authentic, your own version of of um of being on on stage and performing that feels real, but that
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um and I think there I've at times I've struggled with parts of this and handled it by in various ways that include shooting myself in the foot or beating yourself or feeling uh upset about it >> or disassociation too through just like you know substance drinking lifestyle. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Abuse. Yeah. >> Yeah.
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Or and which is a version of feeling lost uh and feeling uh a drift from the the things that are going on at home and um and but I don't feel that way now. >> Yeah.
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the everything since co and and things like that, the ups and downs and allarounds that have happened in a short period of time have um allowed me to say, "Oh, I only have three things that I care about.
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Family, you know, friends, music, that's I don't and you can't own anything.
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You're just uh you get the luxury of participating with something that's not yours and then it goes away."
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you know, my guitar collection could burn and I would think, "Oh, it was amazing.
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I got to participate in that for a second."
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You know, I'm not a huge collector of things.
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Um, and so, um, I think it's brought a comfort.
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I'm I'm much more comfortable in my own skin.
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And, um, and acceptance has been a really big thing.
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You know, if there's a criticism, I accept. You're probably right.
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I don't And if there's if there's a compliment, fine. I fine. I accept. You You might be right.
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You might you might be wrong.
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Uh but it's not neither of these are a problem.
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And I really don't need to worry about that.
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And I think that's allowed me to feel um much more comfortable and focus on things that are more vulnerable and that's more interesting to me.
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So, when it comes to songwriting, >> um, pursuing things that are more vulnerable, that just feels right because it feels a little scarier. >> Oh, man.
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The opening line, I'm I'm, you know, I'm I'm going to go to the edge.
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I'm going to put myself on the tracks.
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Like, I'm going to do this.
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Like, I'm That's the statement, the opening line is like, I'm gonna take the risk. >> Yeah.
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Well, and I think realizing I was in Japan and I saw this Kugi um exhibition. >> Isn't it beautiful?
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>> Oh, it's I and you know, I'd sort of known about Kugi, which is for those of you at at home playing at home, the drinking game whenever you someone says Kugi, >> I love the idea that we're talking about like growth and finding clarity and vulnerability.
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Everyone's watching this getting hammered.
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But that that sounds like my sort of >> the paradox.
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>> The enigma drinking game.
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>> You put you put the docks in paradox.
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>> We're learning while getting up.
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>> Learning through up >> from Hasbro.
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>> See what he learned to drink.
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>> Not a has been a Hasbro.
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>> I think that was like a Aristotle. You're up, bro. I won. You lost. That's the enigma.
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Uh, so um, Kugi though, >> but really focusing on this exhibition was cool because that notion that you could be broken but then get fixed it and and be something more and still be something beautiful.
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really jarred something loose.
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Tiger, >> how did um and I've been here and almost everyone I know has been here and if you live your life, there's no chance there's no chance you won't be here at some point sooner or later.
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But how did coming accepting your mortality through illness kind of affect the way you felt about your body, about your life, about your future?
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Like how did it kind of reset?
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Was it part of this discovery of vulnerability?
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vulnerability? How does it >> I mean absolutely it it was a great accelerant to um that I need to prioritize um the things that feel personally scary because they make me feel vulnerable and and things where before if I felt vulnerable or insecure or upset um I I would get you know you
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use like anger or something to protect yourself right and realizing oh well that's not really necessary >> and and also So things like for example um you know things I really loved and uh and felt strongly about my family and my personal life and music and things like that. I almost my my frontfacing
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I almost my my frontfacing attitude was like don't come near this, you know, but I'm not I uh I'm not a tough guy.
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I don't give a about that.
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It's just I felt like that's how I'm I show my love by protecting this. >> Yeah, >> you know. >> Yeah.
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I understand that's not really necessary now, you know, but I um and so letting go and accepting things just as they are allowed me to sort of let go of spending time protecting something, you know, >> holding on tight. >> Yeah.
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sort of loving it and and and seeing it for what it is is the protection, you know, and and I uh that made me feel more calm and um and the sort of health things were great because um you know, like things like talk therapy never worked for me because the dissipation level of feeling better, it dissipated so quickly.
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It was like, oh, what's the point of that? >> Really long process. You did try it though. >> Yeah. for a second. Yeah.
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But but um music always had the best dissipation level like you know working out your difficulties and the things you love through music just had such a longlasting uh good feeling >> security the process but the music is also the thing that could potentially take you into the madness and into the disassociation of things.
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So there's that that is a quite a sticky journey of using that to kind of do self therapy cuz ultimately you find yourself at the beginning doing that and then later on you're further away some potentially from where you started.
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Well, and and also sometimes playing songs some playing songs that are about a difficult time if I don't if I pay attention to that too much, right?
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>> It it's uh um can be challenging.
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>> Like I don't sit down with my therapist and go over the greatest hits. You know, he sits down.
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He's like, >> "What about the notes from '05?"
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>> He's like, "Hey man, you know what? 2016 was a good year.
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Let's go over that stuff.
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>> Let's just read that again. Read it back to me." >> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. >> Right.
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But yes, but um you know, music is about the process of letting go of something. Having to play it again.
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Um I think I've learned how to dis to to disassociate from that feeling, which is really necessary if you're playing stuff that's very personal.
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>> Cuz there are songs that you still play live that are timestamped to parts of your life that that are seasonal and have gone. >> Yeah.
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I mean they've gone through challenge >> things like I appear missing is the best example of song because it was a really difficult moment and >> can I ask what was going on?
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I was attempting to, you know, being on gnarly drugs.
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Um, and uh is what's challenging is when you realize why you're wanting to escape so hard.
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>> And uh and so um if you say if if if you're if anyone is out there and you've said, "How do I get away from myself?
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what do you what do I do to get away from myself?
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And and you know drugs are a a simple way to do that in the short term, but a dam is is the water behind the dam is building and it will break and it could drown you in and this this how people kill themselves and you know and um um and so I was trying to figure out how how do you get away from yourself and how do you say I wish I could just leave you behind, you know?
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And um did >> that song kind of feel like a fever dream or did you have to really fight for the words in order to address the issue and stare straight at it?
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Look at the wall of fear as you've called it.
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>> Yeah, I mean I think that you know especially Clockwork was uh was the first time um really dealing with staring into the darkness and allowing it to stare back at you and >> and sort of saying all right, what do you got?
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you got? you know um because I think in on the subject of facing your fears which has always been something that has been important to me but something I think you learn to do because you're facing them you get better at doing this and and uh you know and because when you're afraid of something and you face that nine times out of 10 you realize you did not need to be afraid of this and the
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10th time you realize you should be afar of this and you understand why >> and so at least it's been identified the what is what is this thing that you should be afraid of you know and I um and so that lesson learned on this as it pertains to to having a physical injury the dissipation level like I was saying you know music as a sort of therapy or a sort of religion to face your fears and try to understand yourself. How that
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How that dissipation level lasts a long time when you write a song and you feel like, "Oh my god, that feels um accurate to this feeling."
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And that's really helpful.
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but also, you know, having serious physical and health issues once they're over.
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Um, and you're lucky enough or blessed enough that they're not per, you know, they're not going to kill you.
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You get to survive, you know.
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Um, there's a really intense feeling of euphoria post that, you know, where priorities are very clear.
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um you may not have a long time.
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So I will focus only on these three things.
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You know I will focus on my family and my friends and my music.
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And then I was able to add oh my god you know I remember this really sweet Jewish woman in Palm Desert who would say you got your health. You're fine.
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You know and she lived across the street and and um she would always say that and I thought oh yeah of course you've got your health but I was young at the time.
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about focusing on um being nice to yourself.
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>> That's what I was gonna say.
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I was gonna say there's a fourth one here.
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>> Then the other three don't work without the fourth one and that's that. >> Yeah.
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I think in the past um it was a badge of honor to show how much abuse I was willing to take for the other three, you know. dude.
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I mean, the first time I ever met you and subsequently on stage every night I saw you, which is I've seen your band maybe with Yeah.
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probably more than the Beasties now.
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Probably more than any other band.
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I've seen your band live and um and you would go on and and your whole vibe would be like, "Hey man, as long as you're not hurting anybody else, you do whatever you want."
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Like this is this is an exercise in freedom of action, of expression, of living life.
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I >> still feel that way.
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Now, I want to talk about how you can feel that way, but also whether or not you can acknowledge that without the understanding of what that means with some sense of maturity and some sense of thought, right?
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Thinking about what that actually pertains to that the original version of that feels like a passport to disaster. >> Sure.
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I mean, you know, things get away from you and and you know, um, navigating this lifestyle of playing music and touring and trying to make art and whole retain your passion for it and figuring out if you can make it more honest takes you into some dark places and you can get stuck there, you know, and and I always thought, who cares if I'm injured or I'm not feeling right in the head or feeling physically right. Watch this.
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I'll show you what my willingness is to for to prove to these other things, family, friends, music. Watch what I can do. I cannot be stopped.
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And >> and you know, probably using that as do do you love me now?
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But but probably saying that sometimes to yourself, you know, like yeah, probably actually, you know, I guess I really haven't thought about that as much as you know, but probably saying, you know, probably looking in the mirror saying, you know, do you love me now?
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by by proving that if you could endure the physical difficulty or the or overcome the that the mental anguish that you're in and still get up there and do it and still do this that you'd be worth something, you know, >> I guess what's happening while you're doing that to yourself quietly in your >> destroying yourself, you know, >> whilst we're cheering you on.
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I think when I would get confused, frustrated, pissed off, or or just not know, it's because if somebody says you're the greatest thing in the world, that just can't be so.
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>> And it just can't be true.
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And so you say, "You don't know me."
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>> You because you're sort of It's almost a a a not successful way of admitting I'm a wreck. That can't be true.
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And then if someone says hate you, you I think to myself, that can't be true. You don't know me.
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>> Did you just hear that crowd?
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>> Well, they seem like the flip sides of a coin which is not in my possession, >> right?
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>> right? and and uh and I think that confusing that confusion was frustrating to me and would make me lash out because I was just like I don't there's so much I don't know it's driving me crazy right I just feeling like a fool you know but um and then saying well I'll write about that and right around clockwork just saying I'm just going to let this fly you know I mean obviously say I've experimented with that sort of personal honesty in
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and many times prior to that and but but really saying how about this how about I'll only go where it's terrifying how about that maybe this should be that and I realized that I I started this you know um very armored up you know especially in Kais you know Kais people
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really did not like Kais till it was over I mean in Europe towards the end Um, so we largely played to an audience that their sentiment was, "Hey, can you don't or would it would it be all right if you stopped?" And so, um, really only at the very end
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And so, um, really only at the very end did we receive sort of, um, hey, you should keep playing for a while, >> you know, at around the time you put the album out and the circus leaves town. >> Yeah, that's right.
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Which is the most, you know, obvious title of of this is I'm leaving. >> That's perfect.
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>> You know, um, >> don't go. >> Yeah. >> We loved hating you. >> Yeah.
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It was our favorite thing.
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Who are we going to hate now?
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>> Quick, find me someone. >> Don't worry, guys.
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I'll hate myself on my own. >> Do you know of this?
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>> But but all that seems unnecessary.
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It seems like uh so much effort to delve into what you do not like and what you do not understand.
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I mean, I think in figuring out how to just accept what is. Um, you also accept. Yeah, boy.
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There's I I I don't know almost everything and and saying, "Yeah, I accept. I mean, I accept.
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>> What am I going to do?
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I'm I'm trying to you you make an attempt to figure stuff out, but >> largely you're banging off of the things you don't know most of your life, you know."
29:55
Well, you came out of a really quick run of um uh environments or architecture that we build for ourselves uh in the hope that we're going to enjoy it and can have some license over it, right?
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Uh marriage, uh health, all these things that you think, I got this, right? I got this.
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And then divorce, cancer, death, death, physical injury, >> but kind of the best thing ever.
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I mean, of course, >> no. >> Yeah. in the moment.
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But perhaps >> the the best way for me to learn as a as a as someone that puts their head down and works and is stubborn and um uh you know, if something I learned at an early age, something that I'm glad I did, which is if there's a job or a thing you don't want to do, let's do that first.
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Let's do a good job cuz I don't want to have to do it twice and let's get it out of the way. >> Yeah.
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>> The the drawback >> eat the spinach. >> Yeah. Yeah. First, right?
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And the drawback is that if somebody notices you're good at this thing you don't like that they might ask you to do it some more.
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And so you need to learn to say no or say no, I did it. No, we're good.
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You know, I'm a contractor's son and and that work ethic.
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My dad's always been a really hard worker. >> Yeah.
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>> And I've always respected that and I've always, >> you know, um that's what I think I've always um desired is like the respect of people I respect or to find selfrespect, you know, that's which is maybe that's the gift you give yourself, you know, >> which brings us to love and brings us to the theme of this record. Um you uh were in love.
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We talked about this just before.
31:54
That was a season that ended painful for all concerned.
31:57
How do you get back to a place you personally you where you can write an album about the shades of love? Love for yourself. Love just love.
32:06
Feels like this is a really big love album.
32:11
>> Well, a little time, right? Yeah.
32:11
You know, um because this easily could have been the last record.
32:17
There were many songs that were chambered and ready to go and but you know you don't want when you're >> and the last record was was a process record was an in between.
32:27
It was a very brutal brutal >> and uh sonically brutal and you know the delivery of it was brutal and >> um and and meant to be.
32:36
I really love that record and and instead of turning it inward it's sort of >> sort of turn it outward and say >> wow look at the world you know >> um without sort of judging it just saying look at this enjoy the obscenery basically.
32:53
>> Did you just write down obscenery? Stop taking notes.
32:55
It's like he's got a thousand of them.
32:57
You're never going to be able to do that. I've tried that.
32:58
I gave up on that a long time ago around.
33:02
You put the f you in fun.
33:02
I was like, I can't keep up with this guy.
33:06
I put the what and what the is everyone doing here? >> Sh. He's from Wales.
33:10
He's going to be like, oh, the obscenery of the situation. >> Yeah.
33:14
But well, you know, you start realizing interesting things when it comes to writing.
33:19
>> Bill Shakespeare made up words.
33:19
Elbow, all the all our prefixes, impossible, right?
33:24
These things like that, right?
33:26
And so you start saying, "Well, when I say obscenery, you know what I mean? It's just a madeup word.
33:31
Why can't I make up a bunch of words, too?"
33:33
And that the joy in that starts making the commentary of of what you see enjoyable.
33:42
>> Liz Fraser sang a majority of her songs in in that. >> Yeah.
33:47
I don't know who that is, but that sounds interesting. >> Cockto Twins. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah.
33:50
because you know she was I guess I always assumed by listening to the music that really wasn't actually didn't a lot of times feel like it had any kind of like earthly >> language attached to it.
34:00
Uh was very immersed in the feeling.
34:02
I got just I was left with nothing but feeling.
34:06
Sometimes words can actually separate you from the feeling.
34:08
It's because it's like oh I don't like that turn of phrase. You lost me. >> Yeah.
34:12
Well, but I but I think that's why the turn of phrase is so important, >> you know?
34:18
I mean these words They have meanings.
34:21
And in a in a time of emojis where you think, "Holy, what the does two chickens and and a X mean?"
34:27
You know, why'd you send me that?
34:30
I I don't know what to do.
34:33
>> I'm still I'm still back at you saying to me, "In the time of emojis, >> in the time of emojis."
34:39
It sounds like a trailer.
34:42
>> In the time in the time of emojis, >> it was a time of eggplants and chickens. This is worth it.
34:51
One more time for the people.
34:54
>> In a world of eggplants and chickens, sit down.
34:58
What's for dinner now, >> Can we talk about Phantom Limb?
35:06
>> Yeah, I I have I have uh really enjoyed the past few years.
35:13
Um, in January I I um go on a sort of guided psychedelic trip, you know, um, and sort of, you know, hike the interior of my psyche. >> Why can't I do that?
35:34
>> Dude, I love you, but it's about letting go.
35:37
And and and I and and and I mean this with all the sincerity.
35:40
um the effort you put into this and the amount you you do some of the same things I do, you know, and um you you're uh people don't understand like you know what what a fan of music you are, how much you're listening and how you're listening.
36:00
You know, you're crawling inside a record and looking around.
36:04
you know, if the record is a building, you're you're running through the rooms looking opening drawers and And and I think that's so critical for music.
36:12
And you know, people don't always get that about you, what's going into it.
36:19
And I but I also see that part of it is that it's that same thing of if I go to these great lengths, can't can't you see my willingness, what I'm willing to do, >> you know, do you love me now?
36:32
you know, and and and and so and I think the, you know, to be able to to have a psychedelic experience, you need to let go and and understand that uh I'm going to see some things.
36:49
And they're all uh they're not all me.
36:53
Some of them are just what makes up this life that I'm participating in, you know, temporarily.
37:03
And um and the willingness to say that taking that same willingness and saying, "I'm willing to let go. Show me."
37:11
you know, and also the willingness to say, I've gone into these psychedelic experiences asking some really basic questions.
37:23
The last time was like, how can I like get in touch with my art?
37:28
And, you know, and like, and what I loved is that the answer was, okay, I see that question.
37:36
We're going to go way farther than that.
37:42
And um um in the letting go and accepting of of what is and asking to be shown something um it it's just it's really incredible because that that simple question, how do I get in touch with my art?
38:01
you know, it's um by being present, by being there, by spending time with it, by caring for it, you know, in the same way you'd keep a garden alive or a relationship alive by being present, you know, how do I be a good father?
38:19
By by getting down on their level, eye to eye and saying, "What do you think?"
38:25
you know, and then also having the the strength to to say I'm but I'm also your teacher >> so not everything you want to do is going to happen >> because that's not how teaching works.
38:41
songs are never and this is why to your point and I appreciate that you know I love the I love music so much and I because I truly believe that um it's math and magic right it's that's the harmony of it is the math and the magic and the and the and the numbers are turning all the time until I find some
38:58
harmonious situation we're the same so all of a sudden we connect and something magic happens and all of a sudden phantom limb or you know make it easy on yourself or something just comes out of nowhere that's just like blah Ah, and lives are changed and the ripple effect of that goes on for centuries and affects billions. I mean billions of
39:15
I mean billions of people. >> Yeah.
39:19
Without regard to language or >> none of that Like I played Walker Brothers the other day on the show was reminded about how just remarkable that song is and how it's the greatest unrequited gesture of all time, >> you know? >> Yeah.
39:31
But >> and the effect that might have on someone in that moment of time that might affect their life and the way that they process loss forever.
39:36
But what a cool subject to write about unrequited love.
39:40
One of the most >> brutal >> brutal >> forms of that. >> I love you so much.
39:45
You're falling out of love with me slowly, but I think you're also starting to slowly fall in love with somebody else.
39:51
And my response is to tell you to make it easy on yourself, >> right?
39:56
Well, that's not totally unre Well, I guess it is unrequited though, but >> but not in the traditional sense of loving someone from afar, right? This is >> right.
40:05
>> But watching something >> die, >> watching something recede and knowing, you know, >> desperate always looks that way.
40:13
No one desperation will never help you in a situation especially like this. >> Yeah.
40:19
>> You know, this is the time when you have to say I accept I'm I have to be myself now and accept this and watch this happen.
40:27
You know, >> so what what do you do with the anger then if you're in a place where you're able to kind of process and don't take this the wrong way.
40:32
I know you'll understand what I mean.
40:34
Anger was always a part of the person I saw there.
40:36
It was part of what motivated you to go and do the shows, do the thing, the vibe, the music, the energy.
40:41
And at times the conversations we had, I've seen you get angry, you know, and so where does it go when you start to develop some acceptance in life and you start to find some balance and does it just dissipate slowly? Does it?
40:52
>> No, I still have it, but it's like why waste the hate?
40:54
I mean, look, like people that say anger is, you know, really shouldn't it should never enter, that's absolute It's a primal survival um necessity, you know, there's a time for all these things.
41:13
It's about learning how to use these moments, >> you know, um and when to use these and on what situations.
41:21
It's not, you know, there's going to be a time when that could arise that when you and I are together where um where you'll really want my anger to show up >> and you'll really need my willingness to exist.
41:42
And so I'm not putting those away forever. that.
41:45
you know, and there's plenty to be angry about, but some things when things are beyond your control, they just are.
41:52
And and that's the moment to be letting go, >> you know, when there's nothing that you can do, then you can do nothing and it's okay, you know?
42:05
And I just um I think for me growing up where playing those generator parties and things like that, they were magical and at times they were terrifying and brutally violent.
42:20
And it's a strange thing to be a a teenage boy watching people fight and everyone else backs up and says, "Let him finish."
42:29
Where you're like, "Holy let him finish. Oh my god, dude. >> Where's the end?"
42:33
when someone's really up. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Really.
42:38
And um and fairness is just an illusion. Safety is an illusion.
42:42
Safety is only what you were.
42:44
It's not what you are now.
42:46
And and so you kind of armor up and and in my 20s, you know, I was experimenting and armored up and like, "Come on, let's go."
42:54
And things felt like war because that's what I understood. >> Yeah.
42:59
>> And in your 30s, like I was like, "Oh, okay.
43:02
So, I've learned something."
43:02
So, it's it's still war like because I want to I want to impact things.
43:06
I want to mess with stuff.
43:09
I want to >> guess what you can market it now because we want you to. >> Well, right.
43:12
And well, nowadays it's Yeah. As well then too, right?
43:17
>> Um your wildness was celebrated%.
43:20
>> And and also that willingness to see something ridiculous like press stuff often times is so ridiculous and and say, "Oh, I know what to do."
43:28
You should start the machine that begins the process where you go yourself and say that out loud in front of is like the willingness to do that, right?
43:37
But that but it's not all war.
43:39
It's not all it's not it doesn't I I've just realized it just doesn't need to be that way all the time.
43:49
I never would get rid of that because that's foolish.
43:52
There's there's never a moment for violence.
43:55
And it's like, well, you are lucky you.
44:00
>> Someone with a kind heart >> who knows how brutal life gets has been protecting you a long time if you get to say that. >> Yeah.
44:08
>> You know, you must be very lucky. You must be very cool.
44:12
>> But that's not a real assessment of life, unfortunately. >> Yeah. It's it's Adam.
44:17
>> Go walk downtown here and see how long that get how far that gets you.
44:20
>> We're bouncing off each other and constantly.
44:23
>> That's just the way it goes.
44:25
But it's it's it's about coming to an understanding of of yourself and when these are all just tools and when they're necessary, if they're necessary.
44:37
And um and I also think that for me personally, writing about the facets of love was super helpful for me that you know when you're destroyed by it, when it seems like a mental health problem, when when it lifts you up and is the only conduit to hope or something like you know it's only that first song it's just about um um devotion.
45:04
It's funny because when I hear it the first time, >> like a lot of your songs and a lot of what you anchor your songs around and great songs in particular, great country songs, >> um you can take that meaning in four different ways and there's there's you can say it's only love or my god it's only love. Wow, it destroyed me.
45:22
Jesus Christ, you know, like it's like I feel like it's all of them. >> Yeah. >> In that song.
45:27
>> Well, it's a multi-tool.
45:27
It's when you it's what you need when you need it, you know?
45:32
And for me in that moment it was like it's only love. Don't worry, you know.
45:37
Um this is what I'm meant to do.
45:40
You may not understand it.
45:41
>> This is when you were falling in love again.
45:43
>> This is when um you know I think about the little people that live in my house.
45:54
They're only your roommates for so long.
45:57
And then if you do a good job, they they fly away and and and that's what they should do, you know.
46:02
And so the devotion to doing what's right by them, even if you know, I mean, you know, you know, it's love is so interesting because um it's so painful most of the time actually.
46:19
It's not that elation most of the time.
46:22
the time. It's and and in the devotion uh in love's devotion is when it's painful when you're doing what's right instead of what you know is what's easy you know and and I uh and but um you know and it seems to me and maybe I'm in my own bubble but who cares that um it seems that those times to be brave enough to that bravery is in short surprise short
47:01
supplied like the moment where it probably won't go well or you're in a difficult situation and you're like no I'm going to do it anyway I'm going to do this anyways you know um I I I long to see more of that in public you Well, um, >> yeah, you beautifully capture that feeling of devotion that you have to apply to the people in your life, especially in a in a place of nurture. But you're right, they're going to
47:31
But you're right, they're going to leave. >> Yeah. If you Yeah.
47:34
And and >> and dude, it's going to smack you on the head so hard in the loveliest, most sad way. >> Yeah.
47:44
>> It's like the saddest happiness ever.
47:46
Well, and if they and and if they're having trouble doing that, you still have to show your devotion by encouraging >> Oh, yeah. >> this thing.
47:54
So, it's and you know, it's never over. >> Yeah.
47:58
>> It's never, you know, when you when you love someone like that, that's never over. >> And um Yeah.
48:04
So, but I this is the been what's fascinating about writing about these things because I've I've I've written about all kinds of stuff, but I'm allowed to write about this and I want to and it's what's fascinating me and that's what I'm going to do and I'm not.
48:26
Is it safe to say that there's actually a love in your life or that you've experienced something profound since you've been going through all of this stuff?
48:31
Because it's so visceral.
48:33
The lyrics are so clear and so it's so much devotion.
48:36
I'm not saying you couldn't invent that.
48:36
You have a beautiful imagination and have experienced things, can draw on things, but it feels very present.
48:43
>> Well, it helps to have a clear head.
48:43
It helps to not be staying up for days.
48:46
And it's not like I was that way every second of every day, but it's like, you know, I had my struggles.
48:52
And um um it helps to have a clear head and it helps to look like I said I I'm this is a great thing to do in this life to to make music and with and communicate with people you care about and then record it and then set it free.
49:15
It's it's it's a um I want to appreciate this and I haven't always and I haven't you know I've always tried to make good art but it's been a it at times has been a war and um it isn't right now.
49:30
I'm not someone that is always waiting for the other shoe to drop, you know.
49:36
I've just learned to >> if things are good, yeah, let's go, you know, and uh so I'm not questioning it right now, you know, because no matter what our record does, that's not really up to me.
49:50
That's not But that's not where my head is at.
49:52
I I um those are the things I just cannot control, you know.
49:57
know. I can con I can participate in the music and I can um work hard and I can enjoy what this is and that's what I can that's what I can do you know how you going to play this live and how you you did it feels to me almost like a companion to catacombs and so or at least a reflection even though I think
50:17
the timeline is you were working on this record and then you toured catacombs and so somehow there's a relationship with these two records or these two experiences but it does to me This album fundamentally, if you want it to, changes the entire infrastructure of your live set. >> For sure. For sure. >> For sure. For sure.
50:34
>> Which is a blessing because I can only imagine for you, as much as you love these songs, coming out and being that band who's been steadily playing those songs with increased versions for a long time.
50:47
This must feel very freeing for you.
50:50
>> It's very freeing and it's very doing the catacombs before we started with the the first shows. I was terrified. >> Yeah, of course.
50:57
>> And um >> without a guitar in my hand. Yeah. >> But it felt so good.
51:01
I've felt so great to feel that so >> with such strength that the fear was so strong, you know? Um >> Yeah.
51:11
And also I got these guys and they got my back and they're and they're going to they're going to help me paint this picture every night on this canvas. Like it's cool. >> Yeah.
51:18
I mean um >> yeah, working without a net but knowing you're supported.
51:23
But they felt the same way.
51:25
Yeah, >> I mean it goes in all directions, you know.
51:27
It's it's um uh and this record and the catacombs experience are very much braided together and sort of informing each other.
51:37
started recording this and then we did the Catacombs tour and then we kept recording.
51:41
>> Which really was really interesting to me because the idea that you actually had decided to settle into a place that was um >> was kind of loose and almost had the had the sound of the room in it >> and you know I I hear the dust, I hear the feeling, I hear you guys figuring it out and then the songs taking shape while I'm listening to them in some in some cases. >> Yeah.
52:02
You know, it it it it to me the lo the lo logical way of this would have been like we went on tour, we broke it, and now we've decided to take these parts and make something new.
52:10
But you'd already broken it. >> Yeah.
52:13
It had already been broken.
52:14
>> You'd already broken it.
52:15
>> Well, it you know, I've always wanted to be in a band that could just play whatever we thought was good and that was just an accurate representation of the phase of life that you're in.
52:26
>> And have there been times when you felt a little bit trapped by what people want you to be?
52:29
Um well that you're always I think there's always a struggle of you know there's a bunch of factors of uh you realize no I've been down this road damn it you know or you know um you know yes people you you perceive oh they want us to do this you know and because I'm not checking sometimes I think I'm I'm only assuming something.
53:00
It might be much larger in my head than that request would be in real life, you know, but >> what are you going to do?
53:08
>> But at the time, in the moment, isn't that what matters?
53:09
If you're up on stage and you're like, "Okay, here's go with the flow for the 300 300th time this year, and I love this song, but man, I there's there's something out there, i. e.
53:19
something you've been traveling towards. It's waiting for me.
53:22
I just know I just got to get there.
53:24
I've just got to get to this song.
53:25
I got to get to like, you know, mono or cliffs or something which just feels to me like a fan. Like, there's road here. >> Yeah.
53:36
I mean, I I'm not somebody that's ever, you know, as long as people want to hear go with the flow, I'm going to play it.
53:45
That song was like these ones.
53:45
Something I I that that song is very honest, too.
53:49
And it's and and and people love that's just something cool.
53:53
I'm not somebody that that thinks, you know, ah, you don't play your your hit song or that >> that just seems lame to me.
54:03
>> You know, there's a lot of time in the night >> to give you what you came and also use that as a vehicle to say, "Now that you've heard that, come over here real quick." >> Yeah.
54:13
>> And then take someone, put your arm around them and say, "Follow me.
54:15
I want to show you something."
54:16
And um you know um I saw this cool you know clip of Harrison that was talking about if the Beatles were still hip and he said well our fans are of the same age when we started they're getting older with us too and >> and just kind of understanding that people are going through life too >> you know that's what we're all doing and not sweating it you know um um but I I do think Um, in this new record, we're kind of two bands now.
54:52
You know, we're not going to stop whatever that Catacomb's version was. We're just more now.
55:00
Um, and it it's sort of uh makes me feel that we're even closer to being able to do whatever we want to do.
55:12
I think you guys are hitting like a level now where the telepathy, the chemistry of the band, it's got to be the longest lineup you've had with Queens as a singularity at this point.
55:21
>> Well, we've we've had I mean, I personally have been pretty blessed like lucky because there's these eras of this band that are so >> they could not have last that not it could not have >> and you don't even try.
55:36
You just accept that >> these moments in time they that's what they are a moment in time they can't last.
55:47
No, you go and watch footage of you and like the classic deaf era Dave, Nick, Mark on stage.
55:54
It's all available on the internets.
55:57
And if you go and watch you guys tear it up, it feels like it's it it's self-destructing before your very eyes, >> right?
56:05
You're watching it burn apart. >> 100%. >> Yeah.
56:08
And and it was and that's so amazing to be standing there because you say, "Oh, wow. That uh I'm on fire."
56:12
And I look around and and we all are.
56:15
And um but that can't last. And that's okay.
56:21
But this can >> this can because this is, you know, um it's about grabbing puzzle pieces you find on the side of the road that do not go in this puzzle, but saying, "I bet you they do somewhere." >> Yeah.
56:36
>> And and Kugi taking these broken pieces and making something else.
56:40
um and making something beautiful out of things which at first do not appear to belong together.
56:49
And um and that's the ultimate goal.
56:53
That's you know these things which catch fire and implode along the way are bitching because who doesn't like to see something run till it explodes? You know what I mean?
57:06
>> No, I know what you mean.
57:06
The beautiful thing now watching watching you guys play with this music intact and ready to be supported and to join the party, but then I see you go and play, you know, dead at the end every time and every time I'm like, how are they going to squeeze even more out of this?
57:19
And every time I see a new performance of it, I'm like, wow, they found another gear.
57:25
I mean, what is it like when you're in that moment?
57:29
>> Well, that song is like a superstition. It has to be last.
57:31
It's It's >> 100% We've not played it a couple times or once we played it first and and the set was a disaster.
57:39
And so >> and the bottom of your coffee cup fell out of >> It's about like touching the same spot but it's a superstition.
57:46
>> Um um >> honey, I lost the house. >> Yeah. Why?
57:49
Because I didn't play dead. Oh my god.
57:53
>> I told you not to gamble. Right.
57:53
It's just so um but I think what happens now is with the extreme of a song like that and then the other extreme of Phantom Limb or From a Cliff, we >> what we get to be is wider >> and uh and more expansive.
58:14
We get to be more unpredictable.
58:19
We get to be something that that every time you see it, it's morphed and changed.
58:25
>> You get to surprise each other, I think, which is which is the only way to surprise others as well% >> is like to surprise each other first.
58:34
>> And I think we've learned to focus on each other and when our relationship is strong and we're making each other laugh and we're surprising each other that really playing live and the records are a way to say, "Witness this if you're interested."
58:47
Was it reinforcing for you to know that your band was more than a band?
58:54
That they really just wanted you to be okay? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Does that make sense? >> Yeah.
59:00
No, it made it makes a lot of sense because, you know, I I um um I was ready to just walk away and and there's just so much intense things going on and they had nothing to do with music and it just was, you know, you say, why would I expose myself to all to the rest of the why why do you have to go like that?
59:26
>> You know, what's the point?
59:26
Like it's not >> to not is to lie to yourself. Yeah. It's a That's a drywall. >> Yeah.
59:32
And uh um but you know, and most of the time too much is made of what I'm doing when really the truth is is this band of people, you know, Mikey, Dean, John, Troy, they're so good at all this stuff.
59:52
And this is not a one-man show, you know?
59:56
I, you know, um, they just, I mean, I'm I'm the worst player, you know, I'm the worst singer of the, you know, it's um, but that's when we're really doing great is when that is the setup, you know, and, um, I feel really, you know, you never really know who your friends are until everything goes wrong.
1:00:28
And then often times, you know, too goddamn well, you know, >> you might not like what you find. >> Yeah.
1:00:34
And and um it's easy to be friends when everything's going well.
1:00:37
It takes minimal effort, but your your friends are actually friendship is only engaged when things are going wrong, you know, um or going, you know, hinky. >> That's true.
1:00:53
>> You know, and um and we are definitely tested in that zone, you know.
1:00:55
It's very inconvenient life sometimes and it can and to your point it puts a lot of pressure >> sometimes >> on those relationships that work beautifully when it's convenient and so >> yeah I I just think that must have been a really beautiful realization and really ultimately paved the way for this wonderful wide open meadow that stands before you. >> Yeah.
1:01:18
>> Was that moment that that that they just were like we know it's it it's our livelihood.
1:01:22
who keeps the lights on, all these things, but man, you know, it's not going to work unless you work. >> Yeah.
1:01:28
The only way that that can be true, the only way that that byproduct can exist is if you sort of get on your knees and say, "Well, I don't know what I've got, but you've got all I've got to give."
1:01:47
you know, and then if if everyone's actually doing that, you can feel that the the energy of that happening.
1:01:57
And then, you know, I think that's why I've always liked being knocked down cuz I love getting up so much.
1:02:06
It feels so good to say, "So, are you done?"
1:02:13
You know, to say to life, "Are you done?"
1:02:16
And then to stand up and when you actually are with people who enjoy this too, we're we're about to get up. >> So back the up.
1:02:27
I mean that there's this just this sense of joy and pride and because you know life really is about getting knocked down in the style with which you get up, you know, and uh I I certainly would I've been accused of romanticizing these events, but that's what I like to do.
1:02:49
It feels good to take pride in the style you get up and and doing that with with these guys has been uh it's um it's not dramatizing it to say it's been a lifesaver, you know, it's definitely that's accurate.
1:03:06
So, >> pray hands emoji, >> eggplant emoji.