0:00
You're watching TVPN.
Search this video
0:00
Today is Wednesday, October 28th, 2026.
0:03
We are live from the TVP Ultradome.
0:06
The temple of technology, the fortress of finance, >> the capital of capital.
0:12
>> Let me tell you about ramp. com. Time is money. Save both.
0:14
He's used corporate cards, bill pay, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place.
0:17
Uh, how was your morning, Judy? >> It was great.
0:23
But this morning is all about you.
0:26
Mine was even better cuz I got >> I was getting a fantastic workout. >> Oh yeah.
0:31
>> You were at some computer event.
0:33
>> I was I I went to the Apple event this morning. Pro and tell. Very exciting.
0:39
Speculation was all over the place.
0:39
John Turnis shared a video of a an a cutout a spotlight of the Apple logo shining on a wall brightly.
0:48
You can see this video teaser.
0:51
What do you think he's teasing?
0:53
Christian Rebber chimes in. Apple car.
0:56
Obviously, they're just going to drop the Apple car on you midweek on a Wednesday in a 10-minute keynote.
1:01
No, it was a touchscreen uh touchscreen MacBook Pro and uh it was cool.
1:07
It was this was my first Apple event in person.
1:13
Obviously, I've been watching keynotes since I was a young child.
1:14
Uh I remember watching like the Steve Jobs keynotes in college. It was amazing.
1:19
Um and seeing like those clips.
1:21
We've watched a bunch of these on the show.
1:23
Uh and we've seen the evolution, the COVID era, the highly produced big keynotes. This is a smaller event.
1:29
You know, they're they're doing a number of launches. They launched the iPad.
1:33
But man, John Turnis, the star power is incredible. I'm not joking.
1:38
Like, he is so good on stage. >> He's incredible.
1:42
>> He's one of the greatest I ever did.
1:45
>> What are you trying to trying to hit the glass?
1:47
>> No, I was hitting the the the chat button. >> Okay.
1:49
I was like, why can't I hear it?
1:52
Um, no, he's really, really good.
1:52
So, I mean, the whole script was very tight.
1:57
Very quick recap on what they've launched so far.
1:58
Like 15 seconds iPad Mini, 15 seconds on the MacBook Pro with the M6.
2:04
Uh, and then straight into the touchscreen.
2:07
They play a little uh example video which had a hilarious uh theme to it, which was uh if you give a mouse a cookie.
2:14
They took the story of if you give a mouse a cookie and applied it.
2:18
We we we should actually play the the full ad because uh uh Tim Cook shared it on X.
2:22
He said, "We brought Touch to the Mac."
2:25
Um, "We brought Touch the Mac from the new iPad from the allnew iPad Mini >> to the MacBook Pro." Let's play this. >> Like a Pro OLED. >> Yeah, a ProLED XDR.
2:41
So, it'll have more vivid colors, brighter brightness, blacker blacks, razor sharp contrast.
2:52
Then you've got a totally portable reference monitor.
2:58
So, you'll need anti-glare and reflection, burn-in protection, and real time pixel correction.
3:05
It'll look so real, you'll want to reach out and touch it. >> Boom. Mic drop. >> Touch it.
3:12
You can swipe and drag and >> No, they clearly listen to you. You were making fun.
3:17
It's always just thinner, lighter, faster. Boom. You can't say that.
3:20
Apple touchable touchcreen. That's not thinner. That's not lighter. That's not faster.
3:25
That's a different vector of new features.
3:28
>> Our most >> MacBook Pro yet. >> It is. Uh, no.
3:31
I have no idea if this will be useful or I will want the touchscreen version.
3:36
I can't imagine a situation where I want that and I would be very worried about fingerprints.
3:41
I'm already like constantly battling uh uh smudges on my screen and I don't really like using window Windex cleaner.
3:48
I guess I should get the official Apple polishing cloth which is like >> full employment for computer detailers which we've pitched a bunch of times as >> I agree >> as a great business at least in San Francisco.
4:02
you know, schedule different companies, go by the office, take the computer for 10 minutes.
4:08
>> We actually haven't solved that here.
4:11
Like, we should we should figure out.
4:12
>> No, you tried to clean your computer and your hands were burned by like very toxic something off of Amazon.
4:17
>> Was really skimping on the on the on the cleaning supplies and I got chemical burns on her hands.
4:22
No, we should uh we should figure >> So, so yeah, my reaction to the launch is like, why the heck not?
4:26
You know, you should be able to touch the screen of your computer. >> Yeah. Why the heck not?
4:32
Uh, seems, you know, seems pretty cool.
4:35
I don't I don't think I'll care one way or another when I when I upgrade my Mac next if it has a if it has a touchcreen or not. >> Yeah.
4:46
>> Um, >> I don't even know if it's an option that you pick.
4:49
the the actual bigger thing that's an update is the is the uh OLED display, which if you've if you've watched an OLED TV, like it is brighter, the blacks are darker, it's actually a nicer contrast ratio, and a lot of people have been upgrading to OLED TVs and they're like, "Yeah, this is better."
5:06
Um, and so bringing that to uh to the MacBook Pro makes a lot of sense. It's been >> Yeah.
5:11
It's interesting because it, you know, the Mac the the Pro line >> Yeah.
5:15
you know, historically was for professionals, >> still is, but I don't think any of the like the most hardcore power users are like, "Yes, like, >> thank you for delivering the thing that I cared about >> on the touchcreen or on the OLED."
5:29
I I I I do think video editors, anyone doing uh important graphics or color correction, especially if they're delivering to an OLED TV, like if you're if you're editing Netflix, like you know that a lot of people, so the the idea of a portable reference monitor, most people that are doing professional work would normally have a separate monitor to see how it looks on an OLED and now it's just on the main screen, which is great.
5:53
And like you will be able to feel the difference in the screen quality.
5:58
the touching thing again like that's a very specific use case to be playing piano on your on your MacBook Pro.
6:03
Um but uh yeah why not fun teach feature fun feature they already have the technology super mature in the iPad in the iPhone why not put it in the MacBook Pro I guess but I would be I would be surprised if apps are like scrambling to you know take the most advantage of the touchableness because uh who who who really going for it.
6:25
Uh, what did you learn about the hinge?
6:26
Are we going to be experiencing this? >> Yeah. Yeah. No. No. I I think it is better.
6:31
Uh, is that an error or a pro? >> Pro. >> Okay.
6:34
Cuz mine's kind of similar.
6:34
When I moved it around, it it seemed not to do the springiness thing.
6:39
You see how like when I do this, it like springs back and forth.
6:42
It seemed not to do that.
6:42
So, it seems like they improved the It seems like they improved the >> because if you have to hold it, reinforce it while you're touching it, it's going to be a little rough.
6:49
Well, I think the default the default uh way you'll use the MacBook Pro touchcreen will be like this.
6:55
You'll put both hands so you can scroll Instagram and Tik Tok right here.
6:59
>> You're like drive like like you're driving.
7:02
>> Yeah, like you're driving. Um like a huge iPad. I don't know.
7:04
But John Turner is very very good on stage.
7:05
Whatever he's been doing practicing it didn't I think he has a confidence monitor with maybe some script but like it felt very memorized like and delivered perfectly like they really take that seriously and we've seen a lot of keynotes.
7:19
I mean, the Tesla Roadster is probably the best example where there was like a lot of dead air and like Elon was sort of riffing and deciding the top speed live on stage, which is cool.
7:28
It's like its own thing, but Turnis was very, very dialed in.
7:32
Like he knew exactly what word to say, where to put the emphasis, how to deliver it effectively.
7:36
Uh, really, really great.
7:38
The only problem little underdressed.
7:42
So, you know, Steve Jobs is going out with the iconic black turtleneck.
7:44
I would have liked to see him in black tie.
7:47
I would have liked to see him with some white gloves, maybe some tails, maybe a bow tie, maybe a three-piece suit, something like that. Top hat.
7:53
>> Really make it about him. Yes.
7:55
>> Say like, "I am the star." >> Yes, exactly. In the foreground. >> In the foreground. A little too casual.
8:00
I think I was the only one in suit at the entire event, but uh but no, uh it was great.
8:06
Um, and we have uh Mark German from Bloomberg coming on at noon to discuss more of what's going on in the world of Apple, the MacBook Pro moment, and uh everything else that's going on with the foldable iPhone.
8:17
We haven't talked to him since the duo actually launched.
8:20
He predicted it on our show.
8:22
He was correct, and here it is.
8:24
I did get to see a couple iPhone duos.
8:26
One guy had two iPhone duos rigged together for content creation somehow.
8:30
I don't know exactly why, but the guy was rocking four screens, which is elite.
8:38
There was another thing that was funny.
8:40
>> Did you ask him why you stopped at four?
8:42
>> No, I I >> like Because if you're going to go there, why not have more of like an accordion pull out?
8:47
>> Yeah, the accordion would be good.
8:47
You know, it was pretty locked in.
8:49
Uh there was one person >> What was the thing that uh you said people said they were using Instagram less because it's kind of a hassle to use.
8:57
>> Yeah, I did sort of like an informal polling of the iPhone Duo users.
8:59
Uh, and I noticed that some of them said that their screen time was maybe not lower overall, but tilting away from vertical video because they use the phone most of the time when they pick up their phone.
9:18
Then this is very common in the brain rot era.
9:19
You pick up your phone because you got a text message or you need to check something important and then you're like, "Ah, I should see if I got a message on Instagram."
9:25
And then you're like, "Well, I should see if there's a good reel at the top of my stack."
9:28
you know, and pretty quickly you scroll a couple reels.
9:31
This is uh this is the curse of modernity.
9:33
Um and everyone's sort of feeling this and and at least anecdotally there were a few people that were saying like, "Yeah, because I don't like the way Instagram looks.
9:42
It's less addictive on the small main screen.
9:44
I can answer text messages there."
9:46
And then if I do want to watch Instagram, I will like open it up and it's like an iPad and like watch it.
9:51
So, who knows where that really nets out.
9:54
I mean, people will be able to see it because Apple's been tracking the screen time for so long that you could export the data and actually look at the before and after and see like on a week- toeek average, is your Instagram use going up or down or is your vertical video use going up or down?
10:08
There's a few different ways to slice and dice it, but um the other thing was that the really elite content creators, so basically everyone had an iPhone that they were taking videos of the event.
10:16
A couple people had like rigged out Sony cameras.
10:21
Uh there was that one guy with the two iPhone duos ultra elite.
10:23
Uh but the but the real the real power move is bring the selfie stick that goes all the way to the sky.
10:30
There was someone there with a selfie stick that went so so high.
10:33
I can uh I can actually show you a video.
10:38
Um I'll send it in to the to the team because uh it is next level uh production team.
10:45
Let's see if this >> a bird's eye view.
10:46
It it it was it was one of the most aggressive selfie sticks.
10:50
And uh it makes me think if I ever go back to this, I need to get one that goes, you know, 40 feet high and requires three tripod. It'll be like Tyler.
11:00
>> Did they ever sort of point it at Turnis and sort of like almost like a fishing rod extended out right into his face?
11:05
>> I mean, they had they had uh like security screening on the way in, but uh this was a threat.
11:09
Started at the beginning.
11:12
Started at the beginning. So, I I this is this.
11:15
So, they're filming the event as the reveal happens and then you zoom out and you just get more and more selfie stick until you get like you're truly so far above the crowd.
11:26
I don't even think you need to be that high, but uh hopefully good.
11:29
We got a nice video of Tyler, too.
11:32
I put it in the in the group chat.
11:34
Maybe we can share that as well. Tyler will be good.
11:37
How many days until >> more importantly, chat wants to know, >> there are 57 days until Keeper born >> Christmas. >> There he is. >> Fantastic. >> Good in the red. >> Christmas. >> Very festive. >> Um, yeah.
11:52
Uh, it's right around the corner, so get ready.
11:54
Let me tell you about Codeex.
11:55
Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents.
11:59
Whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows, Codeex helps you move projects forward from start to finish.
12:04
Tyler's clapping for that ad.
12:07
He was also clapping at the Apple event.
12:09
Uh, we can show a video going crazy.
12:12
They set up this little uh photo booth.
12:16
>> I don't think I was even in the top 50% of how excited people were.
12:19
>> No, no, there were people that were going way harder than you.
12:20
Uh yeah, this was this was a mild performance.
12:23
Um the other interesting thing about the the actual keynote was that they didn't put the price up on the screen.
12:29
Uh, typically there's like a where you do all this and it's a it's a phone and it's a music player and it's a blah blah blah and it has the best screen ever and it's only $1. 99 or or $9. 99 or two two $2,999.
12:44
Um, uh, we're no longer in that era because of the memory crunch and the and the price of components going up.
12:50
And so, uh, the price was not on screen.
12:53
You can actually see it on apple. com.
12:56
uh something around starts at uh what does it start at? Uh $2,900 for the 14 in.
13:06
Uh the 16 in is going to be uh $3,400 to start, which is on the pricier end, but >> the way you spec it was >> $6,000 69.
13:21
>> You can get >> They also have an own nothing and be happy option. You can lease it.
13:24
>> Yeah, you can lease it. >> 36 months.
13:27
I mean, it's not that crazy. Uh, yeah.
13:27
I mean, a lot of people are buying these for work. They're expensing them.
13:33
And so, there's uh there's a way and and I mean, at the price for performance, like, you're in the right realm.
13:38
It's not uh that dramatic.
13:40
We can talk more about uh this this strategy that's emerging with Mark Gurman.
13:45
Um, the interesting thing was that that uh that that initial like light shined on the wall that was a teaser for the fact that the Apple logo now lights up on the back of the screen. >> Yeah.
14:00
I completely I I hadn't really been thinking about the fact that that had gone away. >> Yeah.
14:06
>> Seemingly to save money. >> Yeah. Exactly.
14:07
Now they're bringing it back.
14:10
>> And it's crazy in hindsight cuz it's like, >> yeah, they probably saved a little bit of money, but it's so such an iconic part of the Mac experience that was just gone. >> You're pro.
14:19
You're pro having bring it back. >> Cool.
14:22
Well, they brought it back. No utility.
14:23
So that might be the thing that gets you this cycle.
14:25
You don't want the touchcreen.
14:27
You don't care about the OLED, but the light up back is interesting to you. Um, no.
14:31
I mean, the the the applause from the audience at that moment was the biggest it was of of everything.
14:38
Even more than touch, >> like even more than anything else, like that was what people were excited about.
14:45
Um >> maybe maybe they're bringing it back because, you know, a lot of people are live streaming sometimes.
14:50
You know, MacBooks are are >> on screen and they're not really getting any of I need to position it like this if I really want to be nice to Apple coms. Here we go. Boom. Nailed it. That's good, right? That looks great.
15:06
Now that's that got the reflection there.
15:08
Um, no, people were very excited about this.
15:10
And yes, my theory is that it probably cost like two bucks per unit to do that.
15:15
And back when they were selling MacBooks for $1,000, that was, you know, a fifth of a percent of the total price and maybe, you know, a half a percent of the total component cost or something like this.
15:28
These are very estimated numbers.
15:29
But when the topline price goes up because of memory going up and because of chips going up in price, all of a sudden like the the technology that it costs to light up the Apple logo probably hasn't changed in price.
15:40
It's probably maybe even gotten cheaper.
15:42
Might just be >> still $2.
15:44
And so now they're like, well, most people are going to be specking these at like four grand.
15:48
$2 relative to four grand is way less than two $2 relative to a,000.
15:54
>> And Tis feels like a guy that's like, yes, it's not necessary. Yes.
15:56
It has no utility other than like sort of brand and just sort of like enjoy like enjoyment for the user.
16:04
It looks nice and >> I think that's the premium uh Apple brand that they need to like stick with and stay with and stuff.
16:11
So uh I thought that was uh that was a nice touch.
16:13
Um anyway, >> Google they got a couple new models.
16:19
>> Okay, first let me tell you about Railway.
16:20
Railway is the all-in-one intelligent cloud provider.
16:22
Use your favorite agent to deploy web app servers, databases, and more.
16:24
Well, railway automatically takes care of scale, moderate, and security. What did Google launch?
16:31
>> Uh, Google has a couple new models.
16:33
Sundar says, "Excited to share Genie 4 today.
16:35
Our most realistic and interactive world model." >> This was really cool.
16:38
>> Steer dynamic environments in real time.
16:40
Shaping events, camera angles, and actions. Generate native audio.
16:41
Match the world from realistic background sounds to characters who can converse in real time.
16:48
Simulate photorealistic scenes and real world physics.
16:50
create more coherent multi-step events through reasoning from Gemini and they've started to roll it out as a research preview. Um, looks incredible.
16:59
I think that the primary use case for world models for me personally so far is, you know, making me think that it's more likely that we're living in our own simulation. >> Yeah. >> I don't know.
17:15
Uh I I wonder like who's using, you know, who's using these?
17:22
>> Well, right now it's mostly research previews.
17:24
So researchers are using them.
17:26
And uh the immediate the immediate thing is like, okay, it could be fun.
17:29
It could just be something that you want to spend time in.
17:33
So it's like a video game.
17:33
It's a substitute for video games or even just a full video game that you want to pay for or or subscribe to or upgrade your plan to be able to tinker in.
17:41
Uh but the the immediate case for uh for uh content creators is like set extensions, virtual backdrops, like you can you could effectively composite yourself into this world and your camera could be moving you around.
18:01
You've seen those videos of people laring with Higsfield.
18:05
You've seen this where people would be like, "Look at look at me."
18:06
And it's like them and it's like, "This is my Lamborghini."
18:08
And they've dynamically replaced the the Honda Civic with the Lamborghini.
18:13
And then they're like, "And I'm on my private jet and it's actually just their back staircase or whatever."
18:17
Um, this allows you to do it in real time if it's this high quality because it can it can interpret where the camera position is and then dynamically generate the world.
18:27
So, even if you're even if I'm filming you and I have a virtual backdrop on you and I'm like, "Okay, we're in we're on the beach."
18:33
And then we go outside, it can it can imagine what's outside and it says, "Okay, now we're now we're on the boardwalk of the beach."
18:41
And it can continually recreate this.
18:43
So, there will be some interesting like real-time applications as this uh rolls out.
18:46
Um, everyone is probably familiar with the simulation hypothesis proposes that what one experiences as the real world is actually a simulated reality such as a computer simulation in which humans are constructs.
19:03
Everyone's thinking we're in a simulation uh in a simulation.
19:05
a simulation uh in a simulation. Now uh you had a different thesis different hypothesis the the racing simulation hypothesis which is that uh our world what we know as earth what we know as the human experience in fact exists in a
19:20
racing simulator run by a higher level organism that exists purely to propagate F1 and the F1 circuit and everything else that we do is in service of simulating F1 motorport motorsport yeah motorsport broadly it's not just it's It's a multifaceted racing simulator. So
19:37
So you include NASCAR, you include GT3. Yeah, exactly.
19:41
Um the racing simulation hypothesis is is one that's it is gaining a lot of ground among uh among the uh the futurists. Yeah.
19:49
And the and the science fiction fans.
19:51
Uh the racing simulation hypothesis is is getting getting popular. Um this is cool. >> That's not all.
19:58
>> Wait, wait, really quickly on uh Genie 4, is it available yet? What?
20:00
Because you've played with some of them before. I'd love to get access. Yeah.
20:07
>> Uh I I don't have access to Genie4 yet. I think it's still on.
20:08
You have to like apply to their like early access program. >> Okay.
20:12
>> Um >> I I'm I'm excited for that to to roll out and be able to play.
20:15
Uh Jordy, what what is the next Google?
20:18
>> Uh they got another model, multiple models this week. Uh Sundar is back.
20:20
He says, "I did say we'd be releasing our models periodically.
20:24
Introducing Gemini 4 Carbon, their next frontier model, which follows Argon's release just two weeks ago.
20:32
Carbon shows the pace at which we're pushing the frontier and it ranks number one on the recently updated V5 of the artificial analysis intelligence index at 59.
20:40
And it also leads across cyber security evaluations scoring 88.
20:46
2% on SEC bench pro for finding vulnerabilities and 54. 8% on exploit gym.
20:52
Um yeah, so very excited to see the reaction here.
20:56
Uh seems like a great launch.
20:58
Uh Elon says it's impressive and uh I think again uh they have to at this point have been learning from the sort of series of of um benchmark disappointments that they seemingly have had for >> Yes. I mean shots, right? >> Yeah.
21:19
just about about a a year straight where every single time it's amazing on benchmarks and then um the the sort of lived experience that people have is less impressive.
21:30
>> Gemini 3 I thought Gemini 3 had like a good flavor to it.
21:32
Maybe it was overly benchmarks but it felt like it wasn't too verbose.
21:35
Felt like it sort of answered questions in like one page of text and so I could like see it and see the answer and kind of parse it easy as opposed to getting like pages and pages and pages which some LLM do.
21:47
uh could be a little bit much.
21:49
Uh I was confused by this because um it feels like the the the hierarchy like with with uh like Luna, Terra, Soul, Astra, I kind of understand that like the moon is smaller than the earth, the earth is smaller than the sun, the sun is smaller than the celestial bodies.
22:10
Same thing with anthropic where it's like a sonnet is shorter than an opus, a mythos is bigger.
22:17
Uh, I kind of understood that.
22:20
Um, this is interesting because they're going in >> maybe the opposite direction depending on how you rank them.
22:25
So, argon is the 18th atomic number whereas carbon's number six.
22:30
And so, does that leave them open to do a a lithium a helium a hydrogen model that's like bigger?
22:37
Are they going to go that direction?
22:39
I like that they have a name.
22:43
>> You think they're going to do a helium model? >> Yes.
22:45
I I think the helium model could be the biggest model from deep mind in years.
22:51
It could change everything.
22:51
Uh it would be the it would be uh significantly bigger than their new carbon model and the helium model uh will uh sell extremely well.
23:03
You'll see it showing up on the ramp index any any moment now when they launch the helium model. >> Yeah.
23:10
Uh but it does sort of beg the question um yeah like what is the what is the taxonomy here?
23:16
It's kind of cool that they left a lot of space between carbon and argon for sodium magnesium.
23:24
>> Sodium >> honestly >> neon aluminum. I love salt. >> Silicon's in there. Phosphorus sulfur.
23:30
>> I would like a sulfur model.
23:32
>> I would have liked some more fearmongering. They could do plutonium. >> Yeah. >> Florine.
23:35
>> Well, that's really deep.
23:35
So in the this is what I'm saying in the deep mind taxonomy right now plutonium would sound like a really scary model but it would actually be much smaller than carbon because it goes from carbon's the biggest and best then argon at 18 at the 18 atomic number is smaller and then you go way down to you plutonium and it's actually like the least effective the least smart model in theory. I don't know. Um it's cool.
24:01
We should do Gemini 5 Nuke. >> Nuke?
24:07
Yeah, we Wait, don't you have a button for that?
24:09
I thought we had a button for nuke.
24:11
>> No, I think we I think we removed >> I think it's too too aggressive for the show. Oh, here we go.
24:13
Oh, Tyler has the truth nuke.
24:17
Gemini Plutonium's coming in any minute now. No.
24:22
Um, the truth nuke is a good really slow still.
24:25
The longest soundboard effect we have.
24:29
Um, but uh this is this all feels like okay, a year ago people were talking about like the naming schemes at the labs don't make any sense.
24:36
OpenAI was probably the worst offender with like 40 row and then like you'd go to four five which was a bigger model but it was slower and then there was like omni versus fast mo and it was like too much and everyone was like I don't get it.
24:50
And then and then it was like 54 55 56 and then eventually OpenAI said okay we're we're going to use a human legible not just purely numbers we're going to go Terra Luna Soul Astra and that I feel like makes a lot of a lot more sense to people.
25:09
It's just more intuitive.
25:09
And so I like that OpenAI's adopted that format.
25:14
I like that Google's adopted that format.
25:16
And I hope that the version numbers kind of melt away and you're just in the world of like okay like big model for this task, small model for that task and uh and it's a little bit it's a little bit easier to just intuitively get a grasp of what every model is capable of.
25:31
Um >> anyways, >> but >> amazing benchmarks excited to see the reactions. >> Yeah.
25:36
And uh >> and the ramp data. >> Yeah. >> In other news. >> Yeah. >> Uh open AI >> first.
25:43
Let me tell you about Cisco critical infrastructure for the AI era.
25:46
Unlock seamless real-time experiences and new value with Cisco. Take me through it.
25:50
>> OpenAI plans to buy Google's chips as part of its AI buildout.
25:52
Um the new like first we had so now we have TPUs. >> Mhm.
26:02
>> Ear last week it was it was opening eye models on GCP. >> Yeah.
26:07
>> Feels like uh start of a new era. >> Yeah.
26:10
I mean, sort of a new era. I don't know.
26:14
I mean, yeah, I guess OpenAI was founded because they were like, "Google's bad, right?"
26:19
>> Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
26:20
>> Yeah, that's a good point.
26:20
Now, it's like they're not that bad.
26:22
But this is the same thing with like Anthropic and Elon.
26:25
It's like, you know, very very diametrically opposed, uh, you know, politically, >> but yeah, hey, they got comput. We need compute. Yeah. So, yeah.
26:33
Uh, business above all business solves everything.
26:38
>> Let's give it up for business.
26:39
>> Let's give it up for business.
26:41
business solves everything.
26:42
>> Dylan Patel says uh semi analysis clients had this already screenshot little victory lab's largest lease ever more massive deals in the pipeline.
26:51
AMD taking share question mark.
26:53
Uh OpenAI's quarter is one 8 gawatt multiase commitment in Ohio with Nvidia back stopping 4. 25 gawatt.
26:59
It's the largest single leasing commitment we have ever seen. >> Cool.
27:04
In addition, we believe that OpenAI is discussing with Neoclouds for both GPU a uh as a service and TPU as a service.
27:11
We think there's a 1 gawatt TPU commitment and OpenAI is looking for sites. >> Yep. >> Enthropic lease 1.
27:16
7 gawatts this quarter with notably 360 megawatts in Queensland, Australia.
27:22
Let's give it up for Compute Down Under.
27:25
Signed on the 16th of September with operations starting in the first quarter of 28.
27:29
the largest overseas lease by an AI lab this quarter. The 1.
27:34
7 gigawatts includes one gigawatt back stop by Google, but also a large site where we aren't sure yet who will provide the credit support.
27:42
>> Do you think AI researchers are going to be okay with doing inference in Australia?
27:45
That's kind of controversial, right?
27:47
Because they're known for throwing another shrimp on the barbie. >> That's rough.
27:53
>> You're going to have to do a truce.
27:53
No more throwing shrimp on the barbie. Just fosters. Just enjoy your fosters.
27:57
Enjoy your fosters >> and and stick to infants and fosters. Uh, no more shrimp.
28:03
Um, anyway, let me tell you about Crowd Strike. Your business is AI.
28:07
Their business is securing it.
28:08
Crowd Strike secures AI and stops breaches. Uh, yeah. Oh, sorry.
28:12
Just to close out that, it's it's just like every lab is using every part of the animal.
28:16
Like, it's the, you know, they're fully uh, >> they're going whole hog.
28:20
>> They're going whole hog.
28:20
They're using everything uh, everything they possibly can.
28:24
can. Every lab is using every chip and every data center and every hyperscaler and every uh neocloud and they're using it all for all different things and different chips will be better at different models and different part pieces of the inference stack and like
28:37
everything will be you used uh very good for the like if you've been in semis and and you know neoclouds and all this stuff like uh rising tide will like lift all boats as everything becomes like there was a moment where it was like oh if you made the wrong architectural decision like you would smoked. That was the theory. And now That was the theory.
28:54
And now it's like, oh, actually these models at least a piece of the models can be like used in niche areas for different things.
29:02
And so even if even if one chip is better at something or faster but less smarter, smarter but slower like like there will be an optimal way to to get a model running on that.
29:13
And with AI agents, it's pretty easy to port to different things.
29:16
I I think we saw that from the AMD uh coverage we did with Lisa Sue where anthropic vibe coded their AMD implementation like pretty quickly.
29:24
So um good for anyone who was betting on oligopy in silicon rougher if you were like this will not be a car-like market but still very very early still a lot of dependence on Nvidia obviously so uh nothing too scary there but uh just interesting that uh everything is getting used by everyone.
29:44
So yeah that that's kind of my update.
29:47
Uh anyway, uh open source uh open source. >> Yeah.
29:50
So Dax over at open code posted yesterday.
29:53
He says uh to put what I'm saying about demand in context, open router is the most successful model model router.
29:59
You can almost serve 100% of their deepseek traffic yesterday on a single GB300 rack.
30:04
This is worth 6 to 7 million.
30:07
Even if there's 10x this demand, secretly that's still less than a 100red million of compute. >> This is crazy.
30:14
>> This is crazy. This is crazy because I don't believe I mean I don't know maybe people are inferencing deepseek from neoclouds directly and not going through open router but I would be very skeptical that there are large enterprises out there that are saying oh
30:31
yeah we have a million dollars a day of inference let's rack our own GB3 yeah so a lot of people are saying well this doesn't yeah this doesn't uh factor in people that have >> on prem >> but the the elephant in the room is the
30:45
the base tens the the modals the fireworks the together AI >> so it's going through that and it's not going >> lambdas you know like a very very long list of of other clouds that can >> okay >> that can serve these models so I would expect that that is where
31:01
>> that is where the that's where the billions of dollars of of inference spend is happening >> sure do we have a do we have a reference point for what percent of deepseek inference is going through open router versus going direct. >> Oh, I think it's impossible to know.
31:14
>> Oh, I think it's impossible to know. >> Okay.
31:16
Well, if you want to get in the game, there's a 300 rack AI supercomputer powered by 9,600 Nvidia A100 GPUs. It's on eBay. You can just buy it. >> Head over to eBay.
31:28
>> If you were thinking about starting a NeoCloud, getting in the token selling business, uh, hit up your local banker, get a credit line for 60 mil, go on eBay, click it.
31:39
Uh fair market value for this >> eBay up 16% over the last 6 months likely because people are realizing that this it's a compute marketplace >> apparently. Yeah.
31:49
Uh fair market value for this would be closer to 50 maybe 55 million but uh you could still >> I love that in the screenshot it says in six carts.
32:00
>> In six carts like >> people have added it to cart. >> Two available.
32:05
Wait, they have two available of these? Wow. Um, yeah, interesting.
32:10
Uh, pretty pretty solid depreciation, too.
32:12
Uh, this, um, this hardware originally sold, uh, for, uh, something like, uh, what was what was this originally originally went for? Let me let me find it.
32:26
Um, it's selling for uh,60 million.
32:30
Now, the original hardware was almost 300 million.
32:32
So there is depreciation, but there's still some value there.
32:37
Of course, this the A100's a seveny old chip now, something like that.
32:41
Um, and so, um, you're banging the table.
32:44
You're you're hitting by. Are you bidding?
32:47
>> I got I was getting excited.
32:48
>> Oh, you're just getting excited. Okay. >> No, very old chip.
32:50
Still worth a lot of money. >> Yeah, totally.
32:54
>> It's price of one dinosaur. >> Oh, yeah.
32:56
Which one would you do, Jordy?
32:58
Which one are you going with?
33:00
>> Are you going Gus the the T-Rex or you going these Jeeps?
33:03
that that's >> I think um I think I'm still to to my oldest dismay I'm still going I'm going for the GPUs.
33:12
>> You're going for the GPUs >> just because I think Malibu Inference would be a great name for uh a Neocloud. >> Yeah.
33:19
And everyone's been making that claim, oh like put the data centers in like luxury towns and you're like yeah I got one right here.
33:25
Um, also you could GPUs up in the shape of a dinosaur. >> Yes.
33:31
>> So that you have an beautiful architecture in your foyer.
33:33
Uh, you of course need to add a lot of cooling because all of a sudden your entryway is the hot aisle. That'd be rough.
33:40
But, uh, it would make a statement.
33:43
People would come in, they know you mean business.
33:46
>> They know they know you do you do local compute.
33:48
You're not paying API pricing.
33:51
You know, you're saving dollars every day.
33:53
>> Why on earth does Malaysia have so much compute?
33:57
John, >> can you take >> Nobody knows. It's a mystery. >> Nobody knows. Nobody knows. >> Nobody knows. It is a total mystery.
34:03
>> This was the first story we talked about on this show. >> The very first show. >> Wow. >> Very first show.
34:07
I opened up the Wall Street Journal and uh and there was uh an article right on the cover about Malaysia being the new uh the new data center hub because >> we got to send you down there.
34:19
>> They are the Switzerland of AI.
34:19
That was sort of the sort of the framing was that they can buy compute from the US and resell it in China.
34:25
And so that was an incredible adv advantage and they had a lot of power uh between the different uh locations there and uh the the the government was sort of set up to allow a lot of compute buildout.
34:38
Um pretty pretty interesting.
34:41
Uh they they have a lot it's not that much compared to America.
34:45
I mean uh Malaysia is not the green bar here. They're not the red bar. The red bar is China.
34:52
>> I'm actually surprised they're not even the blue bar.
34:53
I'm surprised the EU has more compute than Malaysia. >> Okay. Yeah. Aren't you?
34:59
>> Uh no, because the EU is huge and Malaysia is like a pretty small country. >> I know.
35:04
But >> like they they Malaysia seems to be going so long. >> Yeah.
35:07
Also, uh Malaysia is interesting because it's sort of like the uh the AI industrial hub to Singapore.
35:12
So Singapore is the the global financial hub, the port city.
35:16
So everything's coming in there.
35:19
You get stuff delivered through Singapore and then you set it up in Malaysia, just a hop, skip, and a jump over like a a small river or small uh I don't know, small waterway to get to where you actually need to deliver the final product. So, uh interesting.
35:34
But yes, I imagine that a lot of uh a lot of Chinese AI lab compute, if they're doing training, they're probably using like a Malaysian Neocloud that's racking Nvidia chips.
35:43
Uh and they can because there aren't as many trade restrictions, I think something like that. Yeah.
35:49
>> Anyway, uh let me tell you about Shopify.
35:50
Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in in seconds online, in store, on mobile, on social marketplaces, and now with AI agents. Bang.
36:00
>> Uh two Sequoia Capital portfolio companies. Okay.
36:03
Citadel Securities and Open AAI have teamed up with Sequoia.
36:08
>> That's a true sentence.
36:10
>> Uh very it it is uh almost unbelievable.
36:14
>> It doesn't read like that.
36:14
It reads like we're Sequoia and we're brokering a deal between two large important institutions.
36:20
>> No, these are just pork co.
36:21
>> These are just pork co.
36:21
They're just like we got a Porco collab going on.
36:22
We made the intro at our CEO summit. >> Yeah.
36:27
>> Ken, have you met Sam?
36:27
You should You guys should do something.
36:30
>> You guys really got to talk. >> You guys got to talk. Yeah. Yeah.
36:31
I'll intro you over email.
36:33
>> Sequoia announced No Limit, a bot building tournament. >> It's cool.
36:37
>> Uh hosted by Citadel and OpenAI and Sequoia.
36:39
Teams of one or two get 60 minutes to build a poker bot from scratch.
36:43
agents play thousands of games across six scored rounds.
36:45
Open to university students in recent >> Are they taking a shot of Tyler with that? >> Absolutely.
36:53
>> It's brutal >> because he's neither a recent grad or a university student. >> Neither. He's neither. >> That's crazy.
36:59
>> He specifically set this up.
37:01
>> They could have just saidow.
37:01
They could have just said young people. Open to young people.
37:04
>> They literally are like >> open to young people. >> No. No.
37:06
They specifically don't want dropout.
37:07
They specifically don't want trouble.
37:08
>> They're like, "Anybody that like >> had a bright future in academia and quit to work on a podcast is absolutely not welcome >> to to to compete in this. We don't want you.
37:19
>> I'm I'm sort of offended. I love Sequoa. I love Open.
37:22
I love love Citadel Securities, but uh yeah, rough. Give us a break." >> It is really funny. Dropouts not welcome. >> Not welcome.
37:32
Also, probably >> No, I'm sure I'm sure they do.
37:34
I'm sure they do allow that. Yes.
37:36
Um but but yeah, this is this is gonna be very fun.
37:40
Um >> I uh yeah, I wonder I wonder where where you could go with that. That's interesting. 60 minutes. That's pretty quick.
37:48
Uh and I wonder what what tools you'll be able to use, how much prep you can do, and uh and also like what the actual API is because uh I I'm I'm increasingly interested in uh in the building these types of bots, but doing it with computer use and and having it only see what the human sees.
38:04
I want basically a camera pointed at the screen with like button clicking.
38:09
I I want as much uh friction in the system as possible and I'm I'm unimpressed now.
38:16
I've moved the goalpost since uh you could just uh interact with the API. But who knows?
38:21
Uh this is still very very interesting and uh will probably be superhuman as I as I uh anticipate.
38:27
Anyway, let me tell you about console.
38:29
Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of IT, HR, and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests, and password resets.
38:37
Uh, can I talk about Turbo Puffer for a second? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, please do.
38:41
>> So, Turbo Puffer, you've probably seen the puffer jacket that Jordy has worn on the show number of times.
38:46
It is now available for sale, I believe, or uh I think >> it's only going to cost you $100 million of uh contracted value with them. unique guy.
38:58
I think you might need to be a customer or it might be for sale, but uh it's a beautiful puffer jacket from Turop Puffer.
39:02
There's a great profile on Turop Puffer in Colossus Mag today. It's really cool.
39:07
It frames Turbo Puffer as like the only normal tech company in the world while everyone in San Francisco is like crashing out and like being like AI Doom.
39:15
Like the Turbo Puffer folks are just like >> they're just puffing.
39:17
>> We're building the business. Yeah. Yeah.
39:18
We're building the business and uh we Yeah, we started working on that probably over a year ago.
39:23
>> Simon's been on the show a couple times.
39:25
>> Uh no, I'm talking about >> Oh. Oh, yeah. the puffer jacket. Yeah.
39:27
>> Started working on it.
39:27
Making clothing is very very hard. >> It takes a long time. >> Very very very hard.
39:31
Uh but but uh finally >> AI will never get a product in Target. It will take so long.
39:38
They'll just be like, "Ah, I lost my context window. I can't I can't get it."
39:43
Um yeah, Turbo Puffer uh is profiled in Colossus.
39:48
There's some interesting uh there's some interesting um uh strategies that uh Simon's in in employed.
39:53
Uh he he has this term a coinage he calls it ambition bullying.
39:59
Uh so early investors kept asking Simon, "How are you going to build a unicorn?
40:04
You only worked at Shopify before."
40:06
But uh he thought it was ridiculous to pretend he could know whether the business would become a billion-dollar company.
40:14
Spoiler alert, it's well on its way.
40:16
But uh he calls the pressure ambition bullying.
40:19
So VCs come and they they'll bully you into being more ambitious than necessarily you want to be.
40:26
Distracts you from actually just putting one foot in front of the other.
40:30
Uh finally, locky groom was the investor willing to accept the founders's actual plan.
40:34
The lockinator locked it down.
40:36
Uh he said, "Work hard to find product market fit, but shut the company down if it's not working after a year."
40:43
And Locky said, "That's fine. I accept your pitch."
40:46
uh and he invested 700k at a $14 million valuation. What a great investment. Um >> printing.
40:53
>> They also they also uh bought a fiber line just to avoid uh seven milliseconds of latency.
40:58
Like that's how obsessed they are with performance.
41:00
So they discovered that traffic um was traveling through Seattle uh uh like talking to AWS and then getting back to their servers or something like that on Google Cloud.
41:11
And that this created a 15-second mill 15 millisecond round trip.
41:14
So instead of accepting the routing problem, uh one of the uh employees at Turbopuffer located a private internet exchange and purchased a direct fiber connection reducing the round trip to 8 milliseconds.
41:28
And uh yeah, I mean this stuff matters because Turbopuffer does uh a lot of search products. It has to be fast.
41:32
It's it's uh it's a vector database, but uh it's uh it's it's effective not for like the big inference where you're cooking a pro query deep research query.
41:40
uh it it's much more important that it's uh very quick in terms of knowledge retrieval.
41:46
You can't be waiting for it.
41:47
So every millisecond matters and that's what the Turboper team prioritizes.
41:49
And so now they're doing over $und00 million in ARR with roughly 50 employees.
41:54
And so they've been they've been crushing. Congrats to the Turbo.
42:00
>> 15 milliseconds additional is too high.
42:02
That's the type of ping that'll get you killed in counter. >> Counter strike. >> That's true. That's true.
42:06
You need under 10 seconds for ultimate fragging. I agree.
42:10
Uh well let me tell you about public.
42:11
Invest across all asset classes.
42:13
Automate anything with AI agents.
42:13
Run trading strategies, risk management, money movements and monitor markets with AI agents for investing on public.
42:18
Uh >> Lucas, >> oh >> please.
42:23
>> The Grub Grubberinator. >> Lucas Grubber.
42:26
>> Grubinator >> says Instinct is currently raising at 30 billion 100 to 500 to 2 and a half to 10 to 30 in sub one year.
42:33
If you're still not inside the private market, this should be a good signal to pivot aggressively.
42:43
Wealth creation is going to be heavily skewed towards private investors over the coming decade. >> Yeah.
42:49
>> Uh do there is more risk and there is more reward and so that's why venture capital firms diversify and and LPs diversify across venture funds.
43:00
Uh but uh it is >> so people people were naturally crashing out over this.
43:05
Not not even the take >> that's um that's that's embedded in this post but just just that trajectory. >> Yeah.
43:15
>> Um it is insanely aggressive if it's true.
43:19
But uh again this business has been growing so rapidly. Yeah.
43:24
And the interesting thing is like it's very hard to judge Instinct's growth relative to Muse simply because Instinct doesn't have an app.
43:32
So it would be really fascinating to see like >> where would they sit in the app store rankings, right? >> Yeah. Yeah.
43:38
>> Um >> what is what is Muse doing on app store ratings right now?
43:41
Because it was at the top of the app store for a while.
43:42
Muse >> right now you have Tik Tok pro.
43:47
>> Muse is invented of course.
43:49
>> Muse is being like promoted in the app store.
43:51
If you just go to the search button, Muse is right there. It's doing well.
43:54
It has 380,000 ratings, almost all five stars, 4. 9 average.
43:57
So, uh, it's number one in productivity.
43:59
Uh, but not number one overall because Tik Tok Pro is >> and vintage, of course. >> Vinted. Uh, yeah, vinted. I was on vinted.
44:08
I I was looking at some stuff, picking up some picking up some Rick Owens, head to toe. It's coming. It's coming.
44:16
Jordy said I couldn't be a lifestyle influencer, but I think if I pull up in the Rick Owens, the Supreme, the Bayga Top Hat, you're going to be apologizing.
44:28
>> I didn't say >> I didn't say couldn't.
44:30
I just >> You literally said you said you should lean into comedy and I'm like and and then and then my counter example is just a bunch more comedy. >> Yeah.
44:39
>> So un um anyway, uh you can now text your dot. Yeah.
44:44
So there are a ton of these AI agents that everyone seems to >> anyways.
44:47
Anyways, so so the other thing with Instinct is like >> so few people >> have real information around the business that it's impossible to everyone can give a take, right?
44:56
Because the number has the valuation has grown so quickly, so fast.
45:03
>> Um but it's just really tough when you don't have the information, right?
45:04
And so you're just in it's uh entirely investors are making a decision based on what they're seeing in the business.
45:13
Everyone else is giving takes based on how they feel about the number going up really fast. Yeah.
45:19
>> And um yeah, it's hard it's hard to it's hard to see exactly like what um you can only imagine kind of the way that they're positioning the business, how they're um what what Noah's vision is and all that kind of thing.
45:31
and all that kind of thing. Um >> it also highlights like when new capability comes online from a frontier lab it can be at the frontier of that new capability but unless there is a commensurate marketing push it not it's not guaranteed that it gets adoption >> because you only have so much screen real estate in the chatbt app in the
45:55
claude app anthropic has duet now I saw the announcement but I haven't seen a lot of advertising around it and So there's plenty of people that are like, "Oh yeah, I have Cloud Code in my terminal, but like I'm a Muse guy or like I use Grockbot in Slack, but then I use codeex for coding and or I'm cursor over here and instinct in my personal life." And there's so much effort that
46:16
And there's so much effort that needs to go in.
46:18
And so instinct is at least focused on like let's get this value prop in front of people.
46:22
And uh and I think that's sort of like the value of like maybe it's igopolistic, maybe it's a big market, maybe there is a winner take all.
46:30
Like all the investors are still like piecing that together, but they're just seeing like incredible growth.
46:35
Everyone we've talked to has been like the charts are incredible.
46:38
Like every every month is just huge growth even while being attacked by Mark Zuckerberg, being attacked by DOT and and Duet.
46:44
Like there's a whole bunch of other uh companies going after this.
46:48
I have to imagine Google's going to do something soon.
46:50
They've launched similar products in the past and it's so in line with them.
46:54
They already have your email.
46:54
They have Google uh maps that has all your reservations.
46:58
They own they own the Michelin Guide, I think, or uh it's not Michelin, it's the uh >> uh some some star rating service that's like Zagat. Is that it? >> You know that one? >> Yeah.
47:13
Yeah, I don't but they bought they bought like a like a restaurant review like brand and so >> they have a ton of advantages there. They have Google voice.
47:21
They've done service to make calls on your behalf already like years and years ago with AI. What >> Zagot? >> Zagot.
47:28
Is that how you pronounce it? >> Z A G- A T. >> Yeah.
47:31
Um and so they they they have so much infrastructure, but they're always a little bit slower on the product side than like an Instinct, which is just a couple people moving really fast.
47:37
So >> yeah, the crazy thing is to compare Instinct. Yeah.
47:41
instinct if they're raising at 30 billion to where cursor was when they were raising at 30 which like massive competition from the labs. >> Yep.
47:50
>> Um and some questions around how they would how Yeah.
47:53
how they would handle that that competition basically competing with their suppliers, right?
47:58
In some ways, >> but I believe at the time Curser had like north of a billion dollars of revenue, right? >> The margins, right? >> Yeah.
48:05
Their margins weren't great, but at least people were giving them like billions of dollars. Totally.
48:08
And that's not happening.
48:10
And so with Instinct, part of what's jarring is that you have the same level of competition >> and potentially even more, right?
48:18
Because it's like you have the major AI players.
48:21
>> You have the major AI players and then you also have Zach saying >> with with Cursor it was like Cursor was the lead IDE and then you had Windsurf coming from behind nipping at their heels.
48:29
heels. But you didn't really have a product that was a direct competitor from OpenAI or Anthropic or Google really right in like the in the smart >> cloud code and codeex >> but those were those were terminal >> agents and and they did >> disrupt saying they're ultimately competing out over the same
48:45
>> totally totally but like in terms of like the actual product experience like if you wanted to at least review some of the code still be in that hybrid centaur model it was really cursor was far and away number one and then windurf was kind of nipping at the deals, but no, none of the big labs had direct competitor products. And then all of a
49:02
And then all of a sudden it was like uh but flipping it around, if you're looking at the cursor example, you might say, okay, yeah, they don't have the revenue, but they have the the consumer adoption and look at what happened with cursor felt crazy at 10 or 20 or whatever, but got the acquisition done.
49:20
And you're looking at Amazon and Apple and saying, "Well, I see the money.
49:26
they there's the money to buy this company at a valuation above where I'm investing at 30 and so it could happen if Apple or Amazon make a crazy move. >> Yeah.
49:37
>> I don't know maybe Google too but the price is getting hot. >> Yeah.
49:41
How would that work from an antitrust standpoint?
49:45
>> Like all these companies >> they should it should 100% be allowed.
49:48
It's the most competitive industry right now.
49:50
It's like a knife fight for the personal agents. >> Yeah.
49:53
>> Like like you're going up against the monopoly guy Mark Zuckerberg.
49:55
like you're like, "Oh, wait. You're like Amazon.
49:59
You're you're acquiring Instinct uh to to take a shot at open anthropic and meta."
50:05
Like, go go go to town with that, I would think.
50:07
But >> again, I can never predict antitrust.
50:12
So, like you might be right that like they might just say, "No, you're big.
50:16
You can't make a big acquisition." >> Yeah. >> Period.
50:19
>> Like it just it it might be framed differently.
50:21
But as a as a consumer, as an analyst of the industry, I see them as like this is the most competitive tech category we've had in.
50:30
>> So taking out an upstart doesn't actually change the competitive data. >> Yes.
50:35
At the same time, we didn't see Perplexity get acquired.
50:36
And that was a similar one where where Apple and and Amazon, they didn't really have like a chatbot experience.
50:43
And of course, Anthropic launched Claude, that app, and then Google launched Gemini, which was like a direct competitor to ChatGpt, the classic LLM experience, the chat app.
50:55
Uh, Apple and Amazon never picked up just a consumer home screen chat app, period.
51:02
So, they might not jump at this category either. I don't know.
51:04
But if they did, if they like if if Apple bought Perplexity, I think there's other reasons why they might not.
51:09
But if they did a year ago or two years ago, it shouldn't have turned antitrust heads.
51:16
But again, the FTC is very unpredictable on these things.
51:19
>> Anyway, uh let me >> The largest Apple acquisition in history was Beats, right? >> That's right. Yeah.
51:24
I mean, just it's not in the >> and so yeah, it's not in their DNA.
51:26
It'd be a crazy >> Turnis might just be like, I'm a wild man. >> He could be.
51:33
Let's ask we'll ask the germinator. >> Yeah, we will.
51:37
>> Um, but yeah, I I think like the the the challenge with with perplexity and instinct is like once you get in the 10 plus billion dollar range, it becomes like you it takes like a founder company to make a deal like that, right?
51:50
We've seen this with Zuck. Yep.
51:53
>> We've seen this with uh Elon, right? With Cursor. Yep.
51:56
>> And and so like doing these like >> talent acquisitions at north of 10 billion. Yep.
52:01
You have to have exceptional levels of control and conviction >> and be able to be very bold.
52:07
Y and I just don't see that Jasse or Turnis doing anything like that.
52:12
>> No, I completely agree because the shareholders will be like wait even if you're paying in stock you're deluding me and I don't like that whereas Elon will be like I don't care and will be like I don't care.
52:20
>> No, it it was an amazing play >> and critically like Grock did not have an enterprise motion.
52:26
They did not have developer adoption. Cursor gave them that.
52:30
Grock has Grockbot, Meta has Muse, like they don't need Instinct.
52:34
So, yeah, where where it goes.
52:36
Um, but then again, you know, maybe the market's so big that they just become a really big player in personal AI agents and they figure out how to make 5% on every transaction through whatever. They do some ads.
52:49
They do some credit card stuff that we've discussed.
52:52
They do some uh, you know, they they they prove Eric Suffort wrong.
52:57
Agent Commerce does not turn out to be a mirage.
52:58
and then they started printing.
53:01
>> Yeah, >> but who knows?
53:01
Or maybe people >> But it's very possible that the um yeah, the aqua hire horse has left the barn >> potentially. Potentially.
53:10
Uh speaking of horses, should we get to monkeys?
53:16
>> Well, we're going to bring in Mark in just a second, but uh one more fact.
53:17
So Joe Ldale, who was recently pictured, we said it was a private jet that he was calling into CNBC on. We got a correction.
53:28
We have to issue a correction.
53:29
It was actually a private jet or it was a private bus.
53:31
He was on a bus with a private jet zoom background.
53:37
I think that's what was going on, right?
53:39
Because it looked like a private jet behind him.
53:40
But >> he was you're you're accusing him of laring. >> I don't know.
53:44
All I'm saying is that we call it a private jet background and we were corrected by the media and so we need to do an issue.
53:50
We needs >> I stand by I stand by.
53:54
>> You're standing by original stance. >> I'm going.
53:55
It was a private bus with a private jet background. Yeah. Zoom background. That's what's going on.
54:00
Anyway, he's he's uh he's breeding monkeys.
54:02
He's breeding 30,000 monkeys.
54:04
He's getting in the monkey business.
54:06
>> Do you think this this came from like Catrini talking about the monkey bottleneck and he was like that's a good idea.
54:11
I mean, >> uh No, I don't think it was downstream of that.
54:13
I think it happened simultaneously.
54:14
I think I think at one point it was like it was like there's a company out there raising.
54:18
There's rumors about that. 8VC starts funding it.
54:22
It gets out a little bit more.
54:25
couple people see the deal and then you know the semi- analysis folks are talking about the Catrini folks are talking about it and then Satrini like writes the piece about it.
54:31
Uh I I I I don't think it was like open up your phone read Satrini and then like go find go incubate a company or something.
54:37
This feels like it's been in the works for longer. I don't know.
54:41
>> I you have to appreciate how this the title of this article is probably for billions of people the most enraging headline there could ever be.
54:54
Why this Palunteer billionaire is backing up?
54:58
>> 30,000 monkeys just to start.
54:58
Anyway, >> what are they going to do with the monkeys?
55:03
>> They're going to test drugs on them, Jordy.
55:04
That's what they're going to do.
55:06
It's going to be animal testing. That's going to happen.
55:07
Anyway, let me >> This palunteer billionaire wants >> agents. Meet the canvas.
55:11
Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with design system context.
55:14
And we are overjoyed to be joined by Mark Gerlin from Bloomberg here with us live in the TBP and Ultradoo. Welcome back.
55:24
Thank you so much for coming on back.
55:25
>> Dude, great to see you. >> Grab that controller. I'll grab mine.
55:28
Have you been playing the new Call of Duty? Are you a gamer?
55:30
>> Yeah, I I game when I have a chance, when I have time.
55:34
>> There's a lot of work to be done with all the Apple news. >> Work to be done.
55:36
They've got >> MacBook Pro this morning. >> Yes.
55:40
>> MacBook Pro yesterday morning.
55:40
iPad Mini Monday morning.
55:45
>> What's coming tomorrow?
55:46
>> What's coming tomorrow? I don't know. >> Oracle. >> I don't know.
55:49
Maybe more cracked iPhone Duos. Who knows? Oh, how how bad is this?
55:52
I I saw like five iPhone Duos today.
55:55
None of them were cracked.
55:55
Seems like a little bit like people are trying to crack them.
55:59
>> Okay, let's take a step.
56:01
>> Like, how do you rate the durability test?
56:03
>> Let's take a step back.
56:04
>> It's like I did everything I did everything I I did everything I possibly could to destroy this item.
56:09
>> Let's take a step back. No, no, no, no, no, no.
56:12
>> You guys sound like you're owned by Apple right now.
56:13
Okay, >> I'm not I'm not open AI for me this morning.
56:19
It was the best experience of my life. >> Really? >> No.
56:22
I I want to be I want to be clear that uh I have not been impressed with a single thing Apple has done in in like a decade. >> Okay.
56:29
Well, anyways, >> I like I I just want to be really clear.
56:33
John John is a steel man.
56:33
He can steal man everything.
56:36
>> I like the Apple Vision Pro. Okay. >> That's insane. >> Okay. >> I'm a big view guy.
56:42
I'm a big >> All right, it's my turn.
56:44
There are people who have done iPhone Duo tearowns.
56:47
People have purposely broken their iPhone Duos, pouring a bag of sand on it, taking to the beach, dipping it in Diet Coke, whatever, right?
56:54
Then there are people who've used their iPhone Duo as normal and they have run into this issue where the display cracks.
57:02
The way it works, they're using the phone and they're opening it, it feels a little tight >> and then they keep going and then boom, there's a big crack.
57:09
And the cause of this is a manufacturing defect related to uh one of the components in the hinge where there's this one bar in the hinge that gets stuck under the display and then just punctures the screen and creates that crack. >> Okay.
57:22
>> Now, Apple has come out and said a small number of people have had this issue.
57:27
But for Apple, you know, a small number that could be tens of thousands of units.
57:30
We don't know exactly how many units it is, >> but there are people facing this issue.
57:35
This first started cropping up on Twitter, then on Reddit and some of the Apple News forums over the weekend, starting when this came out on Friday.
57:40
I saw this >> and I immediately started investigating.
57:45
I can't do a story based off of people just saying that this happened. Yeah.
57:50
So, what I did is I put a tweet out Sunday night.
57:51
You guys may have seen it.
57:53
I said, "If anyone has had this iPhone crack issue, shoot me a note."
57:54
I wake up Monday morning.
57:57
My inbox is filled with people sending in pictures, videos, stories, uh, proof of receipts, uh, correspondence with Apple, support, genius bar, and authorized reseller paperwork. And so, I did a story.
58:08
18 minutes after I put my story out, Apple finally responded, right?
58:12
They didn't respond until then.
58:13
I think they know what's up. >> Feet to the fire.
58:16
>> I think they know to the fire.
58:17
>> I think they know who people listen to when it comes out.
58:19
>> Journalistic force to stand by.
58:21
>> So, yeah, it's it's a real issue.
58:21
And what's bothered me >> multiple journalists on the horizon. standby. >> That's you.
58:28
>> I feel like I'm at Universal Studios, right?
58:30
Like going throughout the park.
58:32
>> Um there's influencers coming out and making these comments like, "Oh yeah, my iPhone's fine because I haven't purposely broke it."
58:38
Like I Justine said this.
58:40
>> It's completely ridiculous.
58:40
It almost feels like this is something that Apple wants to say.
58:44
>> Like you're folding it wrong.
58:46
>> Okay, but they look really crappy for saying it.
58:48
And they're even coming out and saying, you know, this is a real issue.
58:51
You can go to Apple Care and get it replaced.
58:53
>> But here's the problem.
58:55
You buy this phone, you wait in line 12 hours for it.
58:57
Y, >> you have this crack issue.
58:58
You go back to the Apple store.
59:01
>> Hard for me to relate to this fun, >> right? You go back.
59:04
You go back to the Apple store you bought it from. >> Yeah.
59:08
>> You're so we have no inventory course, right? You can't get a replace.
59:11
>> And these are the most diehard fans because they waited long. So, they're pissed off.
59:14
In fact, one of my good friends, >> he hasn't he bought an iPhone >> and his device didn't have the screen crack, but it has a broken camera.
59:26
>> So, from day one, the diagnostic message popped up and said, "You uh replaced the camera on your iPhone uh with a uh with a foreign part, with a fake iPhone camera part."
59:38
>> And I love my friend, he has no idea how to replace a camera in his iPhone. Okay.
59:42
So, I can vouch for that. He didn't do it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. this.
59:44
You open the camera, it just shows black.
59:46
And so he goes back to the Apple store to try to get it replaced. They have no inventory. Okay.
59:51
And then they tell him, "We'll reserve an iPhone Duo for you at at the Apple store and we'll call you when it comes in."
1:00:01
And they've gotten inventory since.
1:00:03
There's like these online trackers.
1:00:03
You think they've ever called them?
1:00:04
I told him the other day, I'm like, "Listen, Joe, they're never going to call you, okay?
1:00:08
You're going to have to just return this thing and buy it on your own."
1:00:11
So, the process of fixing these issues and getting this resolved for people from the beginning has just been a dumpster fire. >> Yeah.
1:00:18
>> Um, but they're working through the quirks and hopefully this gets resolved.
1:00:21
At least I'm happy that I've had no issues. I love the iPhone Duo.
1:00:22
I'll tell you that right now. I have it. Oh, yeah. Okay.
1:00:27
>> This thing This thing is is is uh >> What is that?
1:00:29
Is it Did you have a case on there?
1:00:31
What's that matte texture?
1:00:33
>> This is the Yeah, this is the Apple Duo case. Where's the camera? >> That's right.
1:00:37
>> You know, we don't want to do free advertising for that, but anyways, I bought the phone.
1:00:39
You look like you're owned by Apple. >> Yeah, sure.
1:00:41
I had the folio the folio case initially. >> Okay. >> Piece of crap. >> Okay. >> Okay.
1:00:46
It's >> And and that's the official Apple case. >> Official Apple.
1:00:49
>> And what are you on now?
1:00:49
It's a different >> I'm on the official Apple standard case.
1:00:52
So, if you're going to get the official Apple case, don't get the folio. Okay.
1:00:55
>> The problem is there's so many features.
1:00:56
>> Why do you think you need a case?
1:00:56
These things are so durable. >> Fair point. Fair point.
1:01:01
>> I bet you won't throw it across the studio right now in front of everyone on live.
1:01:05
>> Challenge accepted, dude.
1:01:07
>> I bet you won't do it.
1:01:07
>> You got to do it like the softest throw. Yeah.
1:01:09
Frisbee right onto the carpet.
1:01:12
Under the carpet for the correction. >> Under the carpet. >> No. No. Don't do it. Don't do it. >> Oh, did it make it? I think it made it. >> I think it survived. It seems >> survived. That was a good throw. You didn't >> Oh, no.
1:01:25
>> What are you guys doing?
1:01:27
>> Tyler, why would you throw this phone like that? >> Okay, so >> good. It's good. >> No, no cracks. >> Yeah, no cracks. You're good. >> Yeah, good.
1:01:35
That mean that is a machine that that is a product that's been going strong for 20 years, you know. >> See, >> um throws it.
1:01:43
>> I can't I can't believe I can't believe you did that.
1:01:45
I'm not doing that with my duo.
1:01:46
Anyways, the Duo has so many amazing features that use both displays. >> Sure.
1:01:50
>> Uh such as taking a FaceTime and showing the person the other side, but that flap on the Folio, it just covers that up and makes it pretty, you know, cumbersome to use.
1:01:57
And so, I've had great experience with the cheaper $80 Apple standard case.
1:02:02
So, if you get a do, I would highly recommend that.
1:02:04
>> I also saw Zag has a nice case, too. Yeah.
1:02:07
>> Um, it's like a clear case with >> What has been your experience on the apps properly getting the iPhone Duo update?
1:02:15
>> Yeah, that that was my thing. That was my thing.
1:02:17
How did Apple allow this phone to launch without all the most popular apps being like at least moderately optimized?
1:02:24
>> Well, I'm long enough I'm around long enough to know you guys are too.
1:02:26
This happens every time there's a form factor change.
1:02:29
They went from the 3GS to the 4.
1:02:32
>> But this is the biggest.
1:02:32
But why can't they just call all the developers and say, "Here's the prompt that you put into your AI agent to update it."
1:02:40
>> Apparently, that's funny.
1:02:40
Apparently, the SDK for the iPhone 2 didn't come out until like a week or two before the phone went on sale.
1:02:45
So, this was, you know, a pretty tight >> Okay.
1:02:47
So, even if you're even if you're best friends with Apple, like you're Disney Plus developer or something and you're close.
1:02:52
I don't know if the Disney >> Disney Plus, but they were updated from day one, but >> how long have we had Instagram and YouTube? >> Instagram day one. YouTube day one.
1:03:00
It's been less than a week. Okay.
1:03:02
The big stuff's The big stuff's good.
1:03:05
>> I can count on one hand >> the number of apps that feel weird >> that feel weird at this point.
1:03:09
>> And so the reviews missed the mark on the iPhone Duo.
1:03:11
I would say jump the >> they jumped the gun.
1:03:13
The app thing is a non-issue because >> because you just wait a week and it's all refreshed.
1:03:17
>> It's pretty much refreshed.
1:03:18
>> It can't be that hard.
1:03:19
>> The reviews focused on a few things.
1:03:19
The reviews focused on camera quality.
1:03:21
The reviews focused on Touch ID and the reviews focused on the app issues. >> The app issue is BS. Doesn't exist.
1:03:27
The cameras are not as bad as people seem to think.
1:03:32
I've done a lot of FaceTimes on the interior camera and it's perfectly useful for the for the for that uh use case.
1:03:39
>> Uh Touch ID has been a complete non-issue for me. >> Okay.
1:03:43
>> You can enroll up to five fingers and so I've done multiple fingers twice.
1:03:47
>> Um I have >> Oh yeah, do twice. Wait, you did there? >> Yeah, I did there.
1:03:50
So put it on the side and so for me I'm already used to Touch ID after less than a week.
1:03:55
It's a complete non-issue.
1:03:56
The real problem with the iPhone Duo is there are some software quirks uh that unfortunately made it through version 1.
1:04:03
0 and hopefully they fix these uh with a software update relatively soon.
1:04:09
Unfortunately the the cadence of software updates is so slow for Apple compared to what you see in the AI world >> um that they need to shake that.
1:04:16
>> Does it have Apple intelligence yet? Like can you ask?
1:04:18
>> Yeah, it has well you call it Apple intelligence.
1:04:20
I call it it's Apple not so intelligent but still Gemini in there.
1:04:24
I I I like the Gemini model.
1:04:26
Like if I ask it a question like tell me the history of the Roman Empire like like is going to give me like a an essay about that that's going to be written clearly.
1:04:34
>> It works but the damage has been done on the Siri brand >> that most people probably just going to go to chat GPT or the Gemini app.
1:04:40
>> No, they honestly they the damage has been done to Siri.
1:04:42
It's been done to Apple intelligence.
1:04:43
They need they need a new >> I don't know why they didn't use Siri AI as a as a sort of fork in the road moment to rebrand their voice assistant to something new.
1:04:53
I thought it was really weird.
1:04:55
They just tacked AI onto the Siri name.
1:04:57
Um, obviously Siri is in popular culture, but not for a good way. >> Yeah. A punch line.
1:05:03
>> The thing that the reviews missed on the iPhone Duo or the software quirk.
1:05:04
So, for instance, there's no picturein picture FaceTime uh when you have the thing opened. >> Oh.
1:05:10
>> Which means like I'm I want to be using two apps at once and then I want a box in the corner with the FaceTime of the person I'm video conference.
1:05:16
>> Oh, you can do that on the normal phone.
1:05:18
>> You could do that on the normal phone. Interesting.
1:05:19
Um, I believe you can do it on the outer screen on this guy, but for some reason it's not working on the inner screen right now. Hopefully they fix that.
1:05:25
>> That's exactly what you want to be doing.
1:05:26
>> Well, the other thing >> I'm FaceTime Jordan.
1:05:27
I want to be scrolling reals. >> There you go. Exactly.
1:05:29
And then the other thing I do all the time is I'm doing multiple things and then I get a text come in. Yeah.
1:05:35
>> Maybe it's from you and I want to just reply really quickly because you do pull down on the notification.
1:05:38
I think that's a great feature. >> Cool.
1:05:41
>> Has not worked for me on the inner screen and so they need to fix that bug too.
1:05:44
So once they get those bugs resolved, I think they're in good shape.
1:05:47
I love the >> feel like a normal thing now though for Apple.
1:05:50
>> I guess I would never I would never use a non-foldable iPhone at this point.
1:05:51
I'm completely sold on the bigger screen. Okay.
1:05:55
I think it's uh absolutely home run product.
1:05:58
>> And walk me through like when are you using the Yeah, that's that's huge.
1:06:00
Um when are you using the outer screen versus the inner screen?
1:06:07
>> Uh I'm going to probably need a new phone. >> Yeah.
1:06:09
When am I using the outer screen versus the inner screen?
1:06:11
um for quick responses, quick interactions, phone calls, what have you.
1:06:17
But for the most most of the time, 75% of the time, I'm using the inner screen. Okay.
1:06:21
I also think the outer screen is not as bad as some have let on.
1:06:24
I think it's perfectly useful, perfectly usable, and this is coming from someone who would never use an iPhone mini.
1:06:30
I think it's totally fine. >> Interesting. >> I like the thing. I really do.
1:06:34
>> Uh but the software quirks need to be fixed.
1:06:35
And this hardware issue with the cracked display is a real thing. Yeah.
1:06:39
Um, and it's pure gaslighting that I've seen from some trying to blame consumers who spent two grand on this thing who take care of their stuff and blaming them.
1:06:48
>> Uh, the people you believe is always right, but I I think sometimes the customer >> So, so you basically believe you're lucky.
1:06:55
You're in the 90% or 99% that didn't get the defective. >> Probably 99. 9% >> realistically.
1:07:00
And so you you don't think yours will ever break no matter how as long as you use it normally.
1:07:04
So, what we've seen, yeah, and what Apple has also said is that if you're going to have the issue, it's going to happen pretty differently.
1:07:10
>> It's gonna happen quickly. Okay. Manufacturing. >> Yeah.
1:07:13
I think I'm I think I'm in the uh in the clear.
1:07:15
>> I think I'm in the clear. >> That's great.
1:07:16
Uh what about uh MacBook screens?
1:07:18
Last time you were here in person, you made fun of me because I had the MacBook Air and Jordan had the Pro and you said that my screen was not good and you know, Jordy picked the right one and I >> Well, now both of you have the wrong one. >> I know.
1:07:32
So, talk us through what actually happened.
1:07:34
Okay, so this morning they announced the uh new MacBook Pro >> and went exactly as uh we've talked about exactly as I've expected for the last four years.
1:07:42
It's the same as this guy.
1:07:45
>> Yeah, >> it's a bit lighter.
1:07:46
So, the one you got there is 4. 7 lbs.
1:07:47
The new one looks identical, but they reworked the internal so now it's 4 lb. >> Okay. Not bad.
1:07:53
>> Um that's actually pretty significant saving%. That's great.
1:07:56
>> It feels much lighter.
1:07:56
You know, I've carried it feels much lighter. >> Wait.
1:07:59
And and and you were at the event this morning.
1:08:01
No, >> you don't you don't >> they don't really want you around there. >> I don't know. That's >> You know what?
1:08:06
You should send them a request for comment and ask them.
1:08:09
>> You know, you know, we have a we have a really good Hollywood makeup team.
1:08:10
So maybe next time I get the invite, you dress up as me.
1:08:14
Well, we we we will bring in 3D scanners.
1:08:17
>> I'll need to wear like shoes with like really thick Yeah. lifts. Maybe stilts.
1:08:21
>> You've got probably what, three inches on me.
1:08:23
>> So yeah, I mean you're 6'8. >> I'm 6'8. So >> Okay.
1:08:26
You've got 8 inches on me then.
1:08:27
>> Well, >> that's fixable. That's fixable.
1:08:28
The Lakers could use their wing.
1:08:31
>> They might have to do the limb lengthening surgery to really pull this off. >> What was that movie? >> No.
1:08:35
Here's what we here's what we do. Here's what we do.
1:08:37
We have to We have to all go >> and then we'll do a reenactment where >> Oh, like Nathan dress. Okay, great.
1:08:45
>> With a full Hollywood makeover.
1:08:45
So, we'll do a full reenactment for you.
1:08:48
>> You'll get to be in the audience like like you're it'll feel like you're actually there. >> Yeah.
1:08:53
>> And we can just we can just do repetitions like that until >> Turnis will be looking out from stage and he'll be like, >> "What? What's going on?"
1:08:58
the Steve Kerr thing >> the other day on Twitter. Did you guys see this?
1:09:03
>> Steve Kerr's coaching the game and all of a sudden he has his doppelganger in the audience. What's going on?
1:09:05
I'm sure people watching this saw that. >> That's funny. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:09:10
>> Um so, um uh touchcreen OLED.
1:09:10
Which one's the bigger deal? >> Oh, yeah. Okay.
1:09:16
So, looks the same, lighter. Yep.
1:09:18
>> Couple centimeters thinner. >> Yep.
1:09:20
>> And then it has three new features: touch, OLED, and the dynamic island. >> Oh, yeah.
1:09:24
uses the same M5 Pro and M5 Max chips uh from the March ones as as expected.
1:09:28
There'll be new M7 Pro and M7 Max versions at the tail end of next year if you're looking forward to those as well.
1:09:33
>> It's a good time to upgrade if you're on an older >> Yeah, it's a good upgrade. I got one.
1:09:36
Uh I'm still on an M1 Max from 201.
1:09:42
Yeah, but I got the base version.
1:09:42
I got the M5 uh Pro version.
1:09:46
>> I'm not doing hardcore >> local inference. >> Yeah.
1:09:49
Well, I am, but not enough local inference that I need a $14,600 version, which is the top end now.
1:09:57
>> 14,000 16,000, >> but uh I wasn't >> Oh, you ordered one? >> No, not yet.
1:10:01
But I was just I was just in the specker like what would I actually do? >> Yeah. What are you getting?
1:10:05
Are you going to get the M5 Max?
1:10:05
Well, here's what's crazy.
1:10:07
Take a take him hit Apple with the bruh when he saw the pricing page.
1:10:12
So if you want the RAM, so it has 96 gigs of RAM included >> on which one?
1:10:20
>> On this one, he speced it higher.
1:10:20
It starts with like >> No, I'm saying but but wait.
1:10:22
So 256 is another $3,600. >> 512 is 13,000.
1:10:32
>> Wait, are you on the MacBook Pro or the Mac Studio?
1:10:34
>> That's That's got to be the studio. >> Is this the studio?
1:10:36
>> That's got to be the studio.
1:10:37
>> There's no way half a terabyte.
1:10:39
>> Yeah, you can't get half a terab of memory on the MacBook Pro.
1:10:40
I think it tops out 100 grand, but either way, so it's now 14 grand if you want.
1:10:46
>> 14 grand is pretty high. Yeah. >> Uh interesting.
1:10:48
>> Put out the new Mac Studio today.
1:10:48
That goes like north of 22 grand with all the uh >> Some people love that for inference and stuff. >> Nobody needs it. I'll be honest with you.
1:10:56
There's literally nothing you need it for.
1:10:57
It's just marketing >> and it's a lot of tokens on a plan with a with a Frontier Lab. It's a lot of influence.
1:11:04
>> Sometimes you want to drive a Ferrari to the grocery store.
1:11:06
>> Sometimes you want to drive a Ferrari to the grocery store.
1:11:08
>> I mean, you did go to Air1 today, so maybe you did. >> Yeah.
1:11:10
So, uh, if I upgrade, it would not be because of the performance.
1:11:13
It would be because I did get the MacBook Pro on your recommendation >> in March.
1:11:18
>> In March, >> I recommended that. >> I think so.
1:11:20
>> There's no way I would have.
1:11:21
>> You just made fun of me for having the Air, which has the LCD screen, I mini LED screen.
1:11:26
Now, I got to upgrade to the OLED screen.
1:11:29
>> Can we pull up the tape?
1:11:29
I must have said something like, "Wait six months and get the touch one." >> You probably did. >> Yeah.
1:11:34
Anyway, >> there's no way I didn't.
1:11:35
>> Uh, I have one of those at home.
1:11:35
I would not upgrade just for the touch. >> Interesting.
1:11:41
Well, >> sell me on the touch.
1:11:43
>> I I have no I'm not going to sell you on the touch because uh I think that it's going to be little used in the end.
1:11:47
I think people are used to using their Macs with the keyboard and trackpad.
1:11:52
However, >> we're in a new generation, okay?
1:11:55
>> Everyone's growing up now with touchcreens. They had to do it. They had no choice. It is table stakes. It is spec sheet 101. It is expected. They had to do this.
1:12:02
But there's nothing innovative about it.
1:12:03
It's just pinch to zoom, rotate, swipe, etc.
1:12:06
There's nothing new about it.
1:12:09
They spent 20 years gaslighting people about not needing touch screens and then they did it and they did nothing to solve the ergonomics problem that they are the ones said that existed. >> Yeah.
1:12:19
Which is put let's let's see.
1:12:19
Put your hand on the screen.
1:12:22
Pretend >> this is what this is what I've been testing. I touched it today.
1:12:26
>> Well, how does your forearm feel?
1:12:29
>> It's a good workout, right? And you're a thick guy.
1:12:31
>> That's a feature for me. >> Yeah.
1:12:32
Yeah, a lot of people that might be >> you're going to be able to see people with the if they have a huge Popeye style forearm, then you'll know that's a touch screen.
1:12:41
>> That's a touch screen.
1:12:42
>> It'll be a badge of honor in >> badge of honor.
1:12:43
Well, I'm looking forward to taking it for a spin. I got the glossy. >> Okay.
1:12:47
So, I like the nano matte texture on the iPhone Duo, but I went with the glossy because I think glossy is better uh for OLED overall, >> even though OLED is a bigger selling point for me cuz I got an OLED TV.
1:12:56
I think it looks great and I could see the OLED being more vibrant and so while I don't think I will be touching it, in fact, I think I will try not to touch my screen ever because I don't want fingerprints all over it. I want it to be clean.
1:13:10
I think the OLED will look better.
1:13:12
So, that's the selling point.
1:13:13
>> Yeah, the OLED is a selling point.
1:13:13
And the dynamic island is pretty nifty.
1:13:14
You know, we're all used to it on our phones and whatnot.
1:13:18
When is it going to finally come to the iPad?
1:13:19
You know, I would imagine.
1:13:21
>> Well, that is interesting that it's there, right? >> Um, >> please.
1:13:24
Samsung has been in the news. Not for the best reason. >> What did I miss? >> Smart TV spyware.
1:13:31
>> Smart TV is like, you know, >> like basically like the most insane allegedly the most insane piece of spyware. >> Is this recent?
1:13:39
I know LG had this issue recently. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:13:41
It it just feels like like I know I' I've asked you this like a million times, but like I now want a privacy focused TV and it feels like Apple's the company to do that, but they're still not going to do it.
1:13:55
They're going to do a home view, which no one ever asked for or needed. Has no real purpose. >> I ordered two. >> You did?
1:14:03
>> Have you gone all in on the ecosystem? >> No, I've not.
1:14:06
No, but but my my criticism is like I would love if Apple was like we're making a product that is replaces all of the technology in your home. It actually is Apple.
1:14:14
It's going to do everything from like light switches to shades to security cameras.
1:14:22
>> Well, they have that with HomeKit and they've got the new home Apple Home collection which is basically a starter kit.
1:14:27
You've got the cameras, all the types of cameras you need >> with like the but why are they doing it with LG?
1:14:32
That that's my that's like >> who would you who would prefer Schneider Electric?
1:14:37
>> Well, I think people why not they make hardware came they do it. You're prefer Yeah.
1:14:43
these these systems are are >> One of the big gates to getting people into HomeKit is the cost of the accessories.
1:14:48
And if Apple starts coming out with this stuff and self-branding it, >> they're going to be at a very high price point and they're not going to be able to get market >> you have someone over and they're like feeling like the Apple door knob that you got.
1:15:00
>> Well, there'll be an Apple camera.
1:15:02
There'll be an Apple INH home security camera sensor.
1:15:03
I don't know if they'll call it a camera, but that's coming.
1:15:06
But, you know, working with a third party is the way to do it.
1:15:07
LG is a weird weird partner, though.
1:15:09
It's just completely random.
1:15:11
Like, if you were to list 100 companies, I would not do Ring. That's Amazon. They can't do Nest. That's Google.
1:15:19
Who else would you >> make?
1:15:21
To me, Apple is at a point where they can no longer innovate.
1:15:24
So why not just create like great commodities across the entire >> What do you think of Apple's AI efforts?
1:15:35
>> I mean I don't like it's been it's been talked about enough on this show and I believe over time they can make a great experience.
1:15:40
I thought the Google partnership just in that they've worked together on the browser before Safari routing to Google search it makes sense to set up the >> I thought the pain the most painful thing is like right as they're getting around to creating like a competent chatbot like agents and like instinct came around and Muse came around and now that's what consumers want. >> Muse is really good. >> Yeah.
1:16:00
And so when will they have that?
1:16:04
>> The funny thing is they're not they're not seeing Muse and being like oh this is an exciting new paradigm.
1:16:07
and they're like sigh of relief, you know, sigh like, "Let me smoke a cigarette cuz like this is going to take us another 3 years kind of thing."
1:16:15
The problem is is that the >> but but but back to my point, it's like >> I'd be h I'd be happier if Apple was just committed to like >> we make we make hardware.
1:16:22
We're going to make the best version of everything in every category. the TV.
1:16:27
Like I'm I'm sitting here as like sort of disappointed as somebody who grew up as an Apple fanboy who spent my whole childhood in the Mac ecosystem who would work like would would would starting when I was like probably 12, 13 would be like working my butt off so that I could save up and buy like the best version of every Apple product.
1:16:50
And now I no longer think of them as an innovator, but I think of them as somebody who will make the best version of the home security camera, who will make the best version of like an app that lets me like unlock my gate when I'm having a friend over. Yeah. Right.
1:17:09
>> So realistic, you should be able to go to Dot or Muse or Duet or whatever AI agent is actually great and say, "How many deer have walked in my backyard in the last month?"
1:17:18
and it can go and pull the data from Apple's camera or or or adjust the screen time limits on my Apple TV.
1:17:25
But the funny the funny thing about the the home view is like I my house I inherited the smart home system >> and I as I'm getting it set up it's like >> the app has like 10 reviews in the in the app store and I'm like >> is it iPhone compatible? >> Probably not. >> Probably not.
1:17:43
Um, and I'm not even going to say it because it's like a small company that makes this like operating system, but but in looking into what the actual cost of the entire system and all the hardware in the home, >> which again is a tough thing to sell because you have to sell it in when the home's being built and it's like not easy.
1:18:01
But like it would cost me like six figures to remove all of it from the house. >> Yeah. It's not worth it. It's not worth it.
1:18:08
>> And um and and I'm stuck with this software that's like horrible.
1:18:11
It's not reliable and I actually have to use it every single day. >> Just get a new house. >> Yeah, basically.
1:18:17
Or no, I'm almost almost at the point of like just like I guess I got a vibe code my own smartarthome operating system. >> That's funny. It's funny.
1:18:27
>> I saw the home view and I was like I get that the product is not super exciting.
1:18:32
Like it's kind of just an iPad on the wall.
1:18:34
Uh, I don't really want the one that moves around, but I I could see my Sell but I like the idea.
1:18:42
Well, I like it for FaceTime. >> Okay.
1:18:45
>> I like it for FaceTime.
1:18:46
>> Did you get the mobile one?
1:18:47
>> Well, then that one doesn't exist yet.
1:18:49
>> Oh, it doesn't exist yet.
1:18:49
>> Yeah, that'll be next year or the year after.
1:18:51
Yeah, that'll be the higher >> That'll be the higherend one.
1:18:53
That's like the AI scooped up pricey version.
1:18:57
That one's sort of like the the sort of the holy grail version.
1:18:59
But >> Apple's had a big year. >> Yeah.
1:19:03
the MacBook Neo, the iPhone Duo, the Touch MacBook Pro.
1:19:06
Um, obviously the the the new Apple Watches and AirPods and iPhone 18s were quite minor, but there was some good stuff.
1:19:14
Next year, there'll be some pretty intriguing things, too.
1:19:17
The smart glasses are the big things for next year.
1:19:19
>> How competitive are those going to be with the Meta VR glasses, which displays them into gear?
1:19:25
>> Well, there's no new there's no new Apple XR products.
1:19:30
>> So, so you could say like it's speakers you can wear.
1:19:32
It's AirPods in a glasses form.
1:19:34
It's AirPods for your face.
1:19:36
>> Speakers you can wear. Finally.
1:19:37
>> It's AirPods for your face with AI >> AI communication.
1:19:41
You can >> AI cameras talking to >> Oh, it has cameras, too. Okay. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
1:19:44
It's a competitive product to the meta glasses. Yeah.
1:19:48
>> The big question is, do you want an Apple designed glasses or do you want Ray-B bands? Right.
1:19:50
Who would you trust with a design for glasses?
1:19:52
The company that's doing it for the first time or the company that's done it for I don't know how many years has Rayban been around? >> Long time. >> Well, decades. >> Yeah. Decades.
1:20:01
I'm riding with Luxotica. >> Luxica.
1:20:04
>> That was super smart on many Meta's part to partner with Luxotica because nobody would buy Meta branded glasses. >> No way. >> Right.
1:20:11
>> I mean, we ran that experiment with Snap.
1:20:14
>> Well, sure, but I don't think the Snap issues were because of the Snap brand.
1:20:17
I I quite frankly think the Snap brand is a is a trusted brand, whereas the Meta brand in some cases is not trusted. >> Oh, sure, sure, sure.
1:20:25
I was just thinking of like those original glass camera glasses from Snap.
1:20:29
>> Oh, everyone wanted those.
1:20:29
Yeah, but they didn't actually sell.
1:20:32
>> You didn't wait in line for those as a kid in college?
1:20:34
>> They didn't sell that well because I think that they looked good.
1:20:36
Like they were designed well, but they just weren't an iconic silhouette.
1:20:39
Like >> what do what what does Apple think about like wired hair airpods or wired headphones becoming like the new thing?
1:20:48
>> I don't think they're going to go backwards on that. I really don't.
1:20:49
I mean, I know >> I know they're not going to go I know they're not going to go backwards, but they still sell the product.
1:20:56
>> What are they 19 bucks?
1:20:56
Yeah, it's it's an amazing deal when you're looking.
1:20:59
For me, I have been riding with Wired for years now, and I still buy them from Apple, but I like that for the price of one pair of AirPods, I can buy like, you know, five or six.
1:21:11
>> Well, you know what's funny is they uh probably haven't manufactured them for years, right?
1:21:15
They probably had like a bunch sitting in a warehouse and like all of a sudden we have to, you know, figure out where are we building those? How do we do that?
1:21:21
And they have to like start the lineup again because you're right, Bose has them now.
1:21:23
It's become part of the zeitgeist right now that people want, you know, these nostalgic Yeah. >> products.
1:21:30
And I think it would be a bad look for Apple to like >> stop selling them.
1:21:34
>> Go nostalgic in that way. Yeah.
1:21:36
>> But I think there's like these little like tricks, bells and whistles.
1:21:40
>> I think what they should do is make just like a much more expensive version of the the wire.
1:21:43
Like just make because what I want is like >> great sound quality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:21:49
It will never never happen.
1:21:50
But what I'm saying is they can bring back these little bells and whistles that that you know give us some nostalgia.
1:21:55
Like for example, I forgot there's a fourth new feature on this new MacBook Pro. >> What's that?
1:22:01
>> When you were back in in high school in college, what happened on the back of your MacBook Pro? >> Light up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:22:07
>> So these these new boys have the the light up Apple logo.
1:22:10
>> Why is that happening?
1:22:10
Is that because the cost of the laptop and the memory has gone up so much that the relative price of the light up on the back is cheaper now on a relative basis?
1:22:21
>> My when I saw that, my immediate speculation was the using the tandem OLED panel, so the the the thinner panel. >> Yeah.
1:22:29
And the the the brightness benefits.
1:22:32
Um you're able to use the display uh the back of the panel as a way to light it up.
1:22:38
But we'll see when these things get torn apart what happened here.
1:22:40
I it's also possible they just did it like I was saying as like a nostalgic element.
1:22:44
>> Have people been asking for this for a long time.
1:22:46
>> The glowing Apple logo >> logo.
1:22:48
>> No, what everyone >> People were cheering at the event.
1:22:49
They were like super excited. >> Ridiculous.
1:22:51
What everyone was asking for was to bring back Mags Safe, which they did, was to bring back ports, which they did, and was to return to um function over form or at least matching function to form.
1:23:04
If you remember the 2016 Mac 2016 MacBook Pro, >> they got rid of a lot of the ports.
1:23:08
They got rid of the SD card slot.
1:23:10
They got rid of Mag Safe.
1:23:12
>> That one had the touch bar or no?
1:23:14
>> That one had the touch bar.
1:23:14
They got rid of the physical function row. Yeah.
1:23:16
>> Um >> with this one that you've got, the 2021 MacBook Pro design, they fixed the MacBook Pro.
1:23:24
Like this is the perfect MacBook Pro. >> Yeah.
1:23:27
>> They didn't redesign it completely, >> but it's boring because it's just at the end of history.
1:23:30
It's like the best and there's nothing you can do. >> Maybe. >> Yeah.
1:23:35
I mean, I I I really want the 16inch iPhone Duo.
1:23:37
16in iPhone do >> that would be huge. >> 7.
1:23:41
6 in is not enough for you.
1:23:43
>> Yeah, I think you could d you could daily drive this.
1:23:44
Just, you know, keep you a big enough pocket you could take a wagon wagon.
1:23:50
>> Does Turnis have the balls to buy Instinct?
1:23:59
>> How much would it cost? >> Over 30 billion.
1:24:03
>> You know, was really interesting.
1:24:03
This kind of went under the radar.
1:24:04
It broke the news a few weeks ago that they bounced their head of M&A.
1:24:09
And uh >> interesting >> put his deputy in charge.
1:24:12
>> And I think there's a couple factors here.
1:24:14
Your good friend Eddie Q >> uh >> former guest of the show.
1:24:18
>> Former guest of the show.
1:24:18
That's what I mean by good friend.
1:24:19
I don't know if you guys are actually boys, but >> who knows? Um >> we both like cars. >> Both like cars. He >> he's with us.
1:24:28
>> Uh you know at some point he's going to retire. Who knows?
1:24:30
Three, five years, whatever. He loves his job.
1:24:32
He's not going anywhere anywhere soon.
1:24:34
he needs to have like potential successors in place because services is a big part of of the company.
1:24:39
And so you've basically now got uh Oliver Schuster who's the head of Apple Music, Apple Sports, Apple TV business, a few things. He's there.
1:24:49
He's sort of kind of a shoein, >> but you never want to be in sort of a lame duck situation where you've only got one successor.
1:24:55
And then the Apple services business is so big that it may not be a cleancut replace Eddie with Oliver.
1:25:01
And so you may need two people.
1:25:04
And so what they did is they moved Adrien Para who was the head of M&A under Eddie Q and he's running a lot of the business side of services.
1:25:10
And so that's one factor why they took M&A away from from Adrian >> uh to sort of put him in the services sort of pipeline there as a potential successor.
1:25:19
I think more than potential as a successor to EDQ eventually. >> Interesting.
1:25:24
The other factor is that Turnis and the hardware engineering guys and the technology guys, they've had gripes for decades that this guy buys no one. >> Oh, interesting. >> Right. The the joke.
1:25:36
>> They're like, "Give us something to work with."
1:25:38
>> The joke with Apple M&A is they do nothing. >> Yeah.
1:25:40
>> It's the easiest job in the world, right?
1:25:42
This is how the the hardware guys. >> Yeah.
1:25:45
This is how the hardware guys think of it.
1:25:47
>> You just have an autoresponder. No.
1:25:48
>> Basically, we're not interested in buying.
1:25:50
>> And well, they do buy a lot, but it's like >> small companies, >> tiny teams.
1:25:53
They're like, "You can't announce it. >> We want cool stuff." Okay.
1:25:57
>> But it's not like there's a different version of Apple, which is like they're buying Sonos and they're buying Nest and the Ring and they're like bidding in all these things and like amplifying them over time. >> They've done nothing. >> They've done nothing. >> Okay.
1:26:08
And so I think you have the Eddie thing as as you know, one reason.
1:26:11
I think the other reason is that Turnis wanted a changing the guard on M&A, someone who's going to sort of, you know, get cracking. Mhm.
1:26:21
>> Um, and so I don't know if they'll buy Instinct, but I think they have a better chance of buying Instinct than if they did.
1:26:26
>> That's actually very interesting.
1:26:26
It feels like they need some way to insert uh people into the company that can innovate on software. >> Uh, that's true.
1:26:33
The software side of things right now, I think, is the weakest part of of Apple.
1:26:39
>> Well, we had an idea for an experience.
1:26:41
>> I'm being a little bit too hard on them. >> Yeah.
1:26:44
>> Just they clearly are they make the best devices. >> Yeah.
1:26:47
But they don't make the best software anymore.
1:26:48
Actually, I take that back.
1:26:50
Maybe they do make the best software.
1:26:51
It's just not as good as >> you know.
1:26:52
We all know it's not as good as as as they could. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:26:57
>> So, >> if they want to if they want to expand Apple services, have they looked at uh Apple Markets or some sort of like casino game integration on your phone?
1:27:05
You know, we did a story on Bloomberg Business Week six months ago or so that said that Apple makes more money from casino games, that type of game, >> uh, than they make on the Mac.
1:27:22
>> Because if you think about how much money the app store makes >> and what percentage of the app store is these like casino type of games, >> Yeah.
1:27:31
>> it's like it's billions.
1:27:31
So they could vertically integrate, maybe even open >> vertical integrate.
1:27:35
I don't think they would go in that direction.
1:27:36
>> Even open a physical go and play roulette.
1:27:40
>> So apps that that operate markets, Apple can't take a cut when you're doing like a stock >> when you're trading stock.
1:27:49
>> I don't think they can or do. >> They they don't. We know that. >> Yeah.
1:27:53
>> Then it wouldn't the whole all the economics would not work. >> They should. What casino? What casino game?
1:27:58
What >> 30% of your retirement in Robin Hood cuz you installed it on the iPhone. >> Can you imagine?
1:28:01
Would you be shocked if there was a headline out like Apple bans Robin Hood from the app store because it's not using their payment process? Can you imagine? >> Right.
1:28:08
That's like that feels like a headline from three years ago.
1:28:09
Like a legit headline for three years.
1:28:12
>> No, but what what what are these casino games that that are not >> ti They're not like because sports betting apps, they're not taking a cut.
1:28:21
They're not taking a cut of >> Well, don't they kick you out and ask for your credit card to load up or take crypto or something?
1:28:27
>> I'll be honest with you guys.
1:28:27
I don't use any of these apps.
1:28:28
I don't use Poly Market or Call Sheet.
1:28:31
>> Well, you're not doing your job.
1:28:32
>> No, I actually I I >> This company makes billions of dollars from casino games. >> I'm keeping my job.
1:28:37
I don't know how to use those things actually. So, there you go.
1:28:41
>> Not even for research.
1:28:41
You can't you can't get $100 >> sports.
1:28:44
Certainly, that's not a violation.
1:28:47
>> Listen, I I get angry enough watching the Lakers, okay?
1:28:49
and get anxious about money on the line.
1:28:51
I don't need to add another u layer to that. >> Okay.
1:28:55
Well, I appreciate your uh your your discipline there.
1:28:59
>> Very cool that Apple makes billions from casino games. So, >> yeah. >> Good.
1:29:04
>> That they criticize and say shouldn't exist. >> Yeah.
1:29:06
The digital economy, they get their cut.
1:29:09
>> Anyway, the house always wins with Apple. Always wins.
1:29:13
>> Thank you so much for coming on the show.
1:29:14
>> I wish we had more time. >> Of course. Always. Let's hang out soon. >> Yes. See you guys. Thank you.
1:29:17
You sold I think you sold me on the duo. >> Really?
1:29:22
>> You need one now cuz I see a big >> Yeah, there's a big big chunk out of this one.
1:29:27
>> Durability test, dude.
1:29:28
>> He's the whistling diesel of technology. Jordy Hayes.
1:29:32
>> Let's get a Can we get a replay on that durability test pulled up?
1:29:36
>> I think the replay is tied to the gong cam specifically. Let me pull up MongoDB.
1:29:40
What's the only thing faster than the AI market your business on MongoDB?
1:29:44
Don't just own the data platform.
1:29:46
Uh don't just uh don't just build AI, own the data platform it the next guest is with us.
1:29:52
Let's let's work on getting a replay >> because we have Zack from Coco Robotics, the co-founder and CEO >> for his first appearance here on TVN.
1:30:02
Welcome to the show, Zack.
1:30:02
Thank you so much for taking the time with us.
1:30:04
How you doing, >> gentlemen? Thanks for having me.
1:30:09
>> It's great to have you.
1:30:10
>> How many of these robots you got these days?
1:30:13
>> We got about a thousand of them.
1:30:13
But we have our next robot coming out soon, so you'll start seeing those around LA.
1:30:17
Um, have you guys gotten a delivery? >> Well, wait.
1:30:21
Uh, I have never gotten a delivery from a delivery robot.
1:30:23
I see them all the time in Los Angeles >> that I know of.
1:30:28
How can Can the robots release the item autonomous?
1:30:33
>> We don't know that that Koko's not live testing humanoid form factors with, you know, rubber masks that that make them >> potentially. >> We don't know. We don't know.
1:30:42
They haven't come out and said that they're not doing that.
1:30:45
>> But the current the current system is if I were to get a delivery in a Cocoa robot, I would go up to it and pull the bag of food out of the bucket, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
1:30:56
Well, we got to get you guys a delivery then. >> Let's do it.
1:30:59
>> But, um, yeah, for anyone that doesn't know, I mean, this is this is what they look like.
1:31:03
Uh, there's a miniature 3D printed version of it, but >> it's a purpose-built robot um designed for, uh, moving goods around our cities. >> Yeah.
1:31:12
and you're expanding to the UK.
1:31:12
How did that come together?
1:31:16
>> Yeah, so we here in the US we work with Uber Eatats and and Door Dash.
1:31:18
Um Door Dash had recently acquired Deliveroo, which is based over in London. >> Sure.
1:31:25
>> And so we've been working with Door Dash for I think almost four years at this point.
1:31:29
We have a really close partnership and uh we wanted to bring it across the pond and bring it to London.
1:31:34
Um, and so we announced um just the other week a kind of a multi-year uh birectionally exclusive partnership to bring KOs all throughout the UK and bring it to some real scale.
1:31:45
>> How do you how do you think about or how is how are these sidewalk robots different from the delivery network that you might see on Door Dash with people in cars?
1:31:55
Like is there a specific robot assigned to an individual restaurant because they're just going back and forth or is it more like a fleet a network it's driving around and it might stop by any random uh restaurant and the restaurant just has to sort of see the robot and say, "Oh, I should put this there." How does that work?
1:32:12
>> Yeah, they're so they're shared.
1:32:12
So they'll we'll get offers from the different platforms.
1:32:15
We also work directly with some retailers.
1:32:17
So we get a bunch of offers come into our system and then the robot will you know go somewhere to pick up an order to the customer and then go on to pick up the next one.
1:32:26
So just in LA I mean we have probably a few thousand merchants across grocery food retail uh that use the robots.
1:32:33
Has there been any movement on getting the restaurants to help do some of the charging and some of the infrastructure sort of like use their back rooms for space or do you have to do sort of what Lime and and Bird did where you have trucks driving around servicing things?
1:32:52
Like what's been the solution there? >> Yeah, it's a mix.
1:32:55
I mean, ideally, you don't want to be going around swapping batteries because it means you're, you know, doubling at least doubling your battery capex.
1:33:01
um it takes forever to drive across a place like Los Angeles to manually swap the batteries and there's not that many deliveries happening at 4 in the morning. Yeah.
1:33:09
>> So, uh ideally they go back to merchants.
1:33:12
The merchants plug them in and then they take a few hours of downtime, right?
1:33:14
So, you run them 20 hours a day and then maybe have four hours of downtime to do cleaning and charging.
1:33:20
We do work with some of our merchants to do this.
1:33:22
We work with a bunch of kind of ghost kitchen companies that also are a great fit at actually charging these and helping us do some of the maintenance.
1:33:28
Um, and then some of our big retail partners, they have a bunch of space.
1:33:32
They might have 24/7 staffing, >> in which case we can kind of work with them um to drive some incremental revenue back to their store in exchange for doing some of the fleet management.
1:33:41
So, you'll never have 100% in any one of these categories.
1:33:43
But the idea is to kind of work with our partners to reduce the overall cost of operating the fleet.
1:33:48
>> What's a bottleneck to going from a thousand active robots?
1:33:50
Sounds like this new deal in the UK will will increase that, but how how do you go to a million?
1:33:56
like what what are the kind of things that need to happen? >> Yeah.
1:34:01
So, um you know, we're gonna bring CO KO's in about 10 cities today across the US and in Europe and next year we should be in between 40 to 50 cities um across uh even more continents.
1:34:11
And um you know the first step is regulatory.
1:34:16
You know, you need to create new policy for this.
1:34:17
This is a new class of of thing. It's not a vehicle. It's not a person. It's it's a robot.
1:34:22
And so you need to define laws around how the robots operate in our cities.
1:34:25
So you work with different either national transportation agencies or at the state level or at the city level depending on where we're going. Introduce policy.
1:34:32
Um and then ramping up manufacturing of our of our new robot. So this is Coco 2.
1:34:36
Um it's the nextG robot that you'll start seeing rolling around the cities in the coming weeks.
1:34:44
Um so we're planning on making about 20,000 of those for 2027.
1:34:49
So you'll see a pretty large step up in the fleet size across a lot of new um a lot of new territories.
1:34:53
Um and then the path to a million feels pretty inevitable from there.
1:34:57
I mean if you look like you know a platform like Door Dash probably has 10 million drivers or something like that working working on the platform in the US and the volumes on these platforms is still growing 20 to 30% a year.
1:35:11
>> So you just compound this out.
1:35:11
I mean, look at the at the end of the next decade, right?
1:35:14
At the end of this in the next 10 years, you're going to have you're going to have to have, you know, 50% of the US working population uh you know, driving for these platforms.
1:35:23
So, you you need to find a way of increasing supply without getting uh human drivers because you're just going to run out of people. >> Awesome.
1:35:31
A lot of people in tech are worried about X risk these days.
1:35:35
Hypothetically, uh where is the vulnerable point?
1:35:37
Uh, if I need to disable this with like a 5.
1:35:39
56 round, >> where would I shoot it?
1:35:45
>> I can't tell you that, but >> Oh, wow.
1:35:46
He's on the side of the robots.
1:35:49
This guy's traitor humanity. Great.
1:35:52
>> Well, you know, in What's funny is that send the delivery over. Send it over.
1:36:00
>> So, in Japan, >> in Japan, you actually have to have a big red kill switch button on the robot.
1:36:06
um which I feel like would uniquely only work in Japan because otherwise everyone unless of course uh but separately jokes aside uh I I have no doubt that uh that you are feeling the benefits of general model progress and AI progress like just
1:36:25
take an image identify if there's someone there if you can go straight on this road all that's probably happening but what do evals what do benchmarks actually look like what metrics are you measuring And what are you seeing in those? Like how do you know that the
1:36:36
Like how do you know that the latest iteration of your software of your AI stack is actually improving the experience?
1:36:43
It feels like we sort of feel the failure mode like the hallucination is like the viral video on Instagram of the Coco robot getting stuck on the curb, but how are you measuring that?
1:36:52
What's progress been like? >> Yeah.
1:36:56
Well, it's it's interesting because I think in robotics, I mean, you see a lot of demos of folding flows and then in the self-driving car world, you have a lot of road driving, right?
1:37:02
It's a very rule-based environment. >> Yeah.
1:37:06
>> The interesting thing about city sidewalks is they're the most complex, dynamic, >> not rulebased environment in the world.
1:37:14
And every city's different, right?
1:37:16
Navigating downtown LA is is is is unique and different than Chicago.
1:37:19
It's very different than Finland, which is very different than parts of Asia.
1:37:23
Um, and so you have different uh kind of social norms and behaviors.
1:37:27
And so the robot actually needs to learn how to be a great, you know, user of the shared space with the public.
1:37:33
It has to be a great sidewalk user.
1:37:35
Um, but we also need to get from point A to point B very quickly.
1:37:39
So we can't spend a lot of time stopping.
1:37:41
So there's this really complex uh kind of social uh navigational problem that we have to get very good at.
1:37:47
So I think we have uh, you know, we have millions of hours and millions of miles of driving in these sort of environments.
1:37:53
you know, snow, rain, sun, uh you know, weekend nightife, uh all these different sorts of environments.
1:38:01
>> So, we probably have one of the largest data sets of this sort of data.
1:38:04
>> Um and and that's used to train all of our models.
1:38:06
Uh but then we've actually open sourced and published some really interesting benchmarks because I think as these models progress, I think some of these big labs might want to be testing, hey, how did our model actually do at navigating the the public realm?
1:38:18
How do we actually do it navigating um you know, a downtown Chicago sidewalk? >> Yeah.
1:38:22
Um and so we actually have some benchmarks we've created from these different environments um that we've published and I think that will be helpful to the robotics industry in general. >> Very cool.
1:38:31
Well, congratulations on the progress.
1:38:32
Thank you so much for coming on the show. Jordy, sorry.
1:38:33
Do you have another >> Yeah, excited to see more of these around.
1:38:36
It's it's an interesting thing like you got you want to as a business you want to scale quickly, but I think like the the lesson from flock is that like individual consumers have so much power over over like what's allowed to operate in their area.
1:38:50
And I think that um making sure that you know friendly robots are are never annoying is like has to be like number one priority and and that's such a hard problem versus what you were talking about with like on the roads.
1:39:03
It's like we have established laws when the lights green go. >> Yeah.
1:39:07
>> Often times if I'm behind John I have to honk after the light goes green.
1:39:09
It's not getting any greener buddy.
1:39:14
>> But uh anyways very difficult problem.
1:39:17
Um, and uh, yeah, I want to see the Cocoa robot in Japan.
1:39:20
I promise not to touch the big red button.
1:39:24
>> Yeah, I I can I can be trusted.
1:39:26
>> I imagine you uh hiring a couple of these just to patrol the property.
1:39:29
This feels like an intermediary if you if you don't want to go robot dog patrol and humanoids aren't working yet.
1:39:35
Just having a a fleet of cocoos circling the property at all times. That's security there.
1:39:42
>> Well, guys, how do we get some lunch orders going to the office? Going to the studio.
1:39:45
>> We'll we'll coordinate.
1:39:45
Nick will text you right now. We'll figure it out.
1:39:48
We'll we'll get our lunch delivered with Coco. Thank you so much.
1:39:49
Great to have the rest of your day.
1:39:52
Uh we do have the phone toss replay live on TDP ready. Let's see it in action.
1:39:59
Jordy, >> can we get a little zoom in? >> Jordy. Uh >> boom. >> Oh, that.
1:40:06
>> But I really want to see Tyler held up well >> because Tyler was comes in >> was bolder cuz he thought I was going to catch it. >> Yeah. >> Let's zoom in. Let's zoom in. >> Okay. We got a little block. >> See what's happening. >> Can we see this? >> Throws it. Throws it. Gets out of the way. >> Yeah. When Jordy moves back.
1:40:23
>> You fell for that one, Tyler. You fell for it. Hookline and sinker.
1:40:25
Uh, our next guest is the co-founder and CEO of Formation Bio with Ben.
1:40:30
Uh, launching a huge drug development fund.
1:40:33
Ben, welcome to the show.
1:40:37
>> Let's get this gong ready. How you doing?
1:40:39
Please kick us off with yourself and the organization. >> Great.
1:40:44
>> Great. Uh so Benjamin Lou co-founder CE formation bio we're an AI native company uh uh building the next generation pharma company with this kind of core thesis that drug discovery is getting more and more efficient and the fundamental bottleneck of bringing new medicines to patients is the cost and time of drug development
1:41:01
>> what's your monkey what's your stance on monkeys you got >> there's going to be a big shortage they're important you know national security we got to increase the number of monkeys we have it's >> you know the the similar similarity between our disease systems to uh kind of humans is probably one of the best predictors, right? So you can imagine
1:41:18
So you can imagine like solving like rat Alzheimer's is uh very different than s solving monkey Alzheimer's.
1:41:26
So >> yeah, so you know the biggest the biggest bottleneck is drug development in humans and so you know you have this impedance mismatch where drug discovery is only getting more efficient.
1:41:34
There's been a doubling of the number of discovered drug candidates in the past 10 years even before AI.
1:41:38
The number of approved drugs has kept like kind of constant at 50 a year. Markets are rational.
1:41:43
So discovered drugs aren't worth much to post phase 2.
1:41:45
So the company we actually don't do any discovery internally.
1:41:49
We look to acquire drugs that are discovered. >> Okay.
1:41:52
>> And then we built all the technology, people, people, processes, AI systems to run clinical trials and drug development more efficiently, but also the best humans and AI systems that know what drugs to pick and what diseases to match them to. >> Yeah.
1:42:04
>> And then uh we provide all the capital and capabilities to get the drugs from where they are.
1:42:08
It's usually two to four years away from a clinical trial and we provide all the cap and capabilities to get it postinical in inflection.
1:42:13
That's where the bottleneck is probably under appreciated. >> No, no, totally. >> Yeah.
1:42:18
>> What what are what were the pre like talk about like costs around drug discovery preai and then where you think it'll go with >> new advancements and models and and you know continued scaling because it it feels like a $600 million fund.
1:42:31
I imagine you're going to distribute it across a like a bunch of entrepreneurs and teams that are focused on that discovery, >> but then each one of those individual drugs, if they're promising and they start going through trials, could still cost hundreds of millions of dollars to actually take it all away.
1:42:52
>> That's actually the fundamental bottleneck, right?
1:42:53
So you had this like kind of uh drug abundance in in discovery, but once you hit the clinic, you know, a clinical trial can cost a few hundred million dollars.
1:43:01
Like a phase 2 clinical trial can be, you know, 60 million to 80 million uh if not more.
1:43:08
And so um what's going to happen is if we don't develop more capabilities around the drug development period, uh we're not going to be able to translate all these discoveries into new medicines.
1:43:17
medicines. And like you alluded to, you're kind of looking at like all these great discovery companies and and you know getting a drug from uh uh you know a discovered idea to an IND is now costing just a few million dollars and that's probably going to go down over
1:43:30
time right uh you know with all this automation and you know the great work that um uh you know folks like Anthropic and you know you got ISO chai like design is getting increasingly commoditized but what is pretty rare is like the ability to prove that it works in a and and that capacity hasn't changed. So, so historically what was the origin
1:43:50
So, so historically what was the origin of the capital uh for this particular phase because obviously a lot of drug discovery uh candidate selection might happen in the in academia and then once you're postphase 2 phase three uh you're
1:44:07
probably working with a big biotech maybe got acquired but is this the sweet spot for companies that might go public might be traded as sort of like risk on biotech public markets investors historically and you're able >> that's right so either you have to go
1:44:23
public or you raise from a traditional like trading or something >> or you know an atlas or you know a lot of kind of great funds uh kind of finance these drug uh you know uh >> uh you know arch capital um you know I
1:44:37
think what separates our fund is we're not investing in companies but individual drug assets and so these are drugs that we put into y >> and we not only provide like the 60 or 80 million needed but all the capital but also the capabilities. So think
1:44:50
So think about like the ability to run trials cheaper and faster human drug pickers.
1:44:56
So R&D head was the R&D head at Biogen.
1:44:58
He developed the first, you know, uh uh genetic uh medicine for ALS, the first or a drug for SMA, the first disease modifying drug for Alzheimer's.
1:45:08
And we have a guy who also discovered head head of neuroscience at at at Ro.
1:45:12
neuroscience at at at Ro. uh uh so folks really experienced in drug development but also the AI systems allow you to like look at every single drug in the world match the right drug to the right disease design the right study and then be more efficient in getting the drugs ultimately to a clinical values maybe
1:45:30
kind of share a little bit more about how I got started you know I trained as a computational biologist so I think like many you really excited about how all the genomic proteomic transcripttoic data mixed with machine learning AI can can transform discovery when I was a graduate student we didn't discover a few candidate drugs in Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. And just very naively, we
1:45:45
And just very naively, we went to some pharma exacts and said, "Hey, we discovered these drugs.
1:45:49
Aren't you guys excited?"
1:45:50
And they said, you know, start to burst your bubble.
1:45:51
And this is like 10 years ago.
1:45:53
There's already more good drugs discovered than we could afford to develop.
1:45:56
When a single clinical trial in Alzheimer's across all the phases can cost like hundreds of millions of dollars, actually half a billion per per shot.
1:46:03
We just can't afford to prosecute everything we we uh discover.
1:46:07
And now with AI, that's probably going to 10 if not 100x, right?
1:46:11
And so if we can't like ultimately solve this throughput, we're not going to get more medicines to patients.
1:46:17
And so this fund is dedicated for you know let's say a biotech and discover five 10 drugs.
1:46:21
As soon as they have a lead asset traditionally all the capital needs to go to that lead asset that second third fourth might not get any love.
1:46:28
And so we're saying hey we can provide the capital but also all the capabilities to >> enable that company to take more shots.
1:46:36
And if it wins, we kind of share upside.
1:46:38
It could be upfront, royalties, uh milestones, and even equity.
1:46:40
And so, it's kind of win-win uh for for the industry.
1:46:45
But it's maybe the counterintuitive thing.
1:46:47
>> I don't think people appreciate that like, you know, uh uh drug discovery has not been necessarily the bottleneck for a pretty long time.
1:46:54
Uh and it's only uh going to get more and more acute as you have drug discovery abundance.
1:46:59
And and ultimately, it's like how can you get them into clinical proof of concept?
1:47:02
And that's what the market values too, right?
1:47:07
Because if you have an abundance of discovered drug assets, >> you really don't see value until uh you demonstrate human clinical proof of concept.
1:47:15
And that's where maybe the heristic to think about this like a discover drug isn't worth much.
1:47:20
>> Once it has clinical proof of concept, so in human trials in the disease postphase 2, the heristic is 1x peak sales.
1:47:27
So you can sell a drug for, you know, if it's a $5 billion year drug for five billion.
1:47:31
Once it's over phase three, uh, uh, past phase three, it's 2 to 3x peak sales. >> Makes sense.
1:47:36
>> And so, uh, you know, this is interesting, like we kind of asked the question like why hasn't there been a big pharma company really in our industry created since the 1980s?
1:47:44
>> And one of the big challenges if you're a venture, and that's kind of the amig of the world.
1:47:50
>> Um, if you're like a ventureback company, it takes you like 3 to 5 years to get in the clinic and then 2 to four years to run a phase one and phase two.
1:47:57
Phase 2 only work 30% of the time on average.
1:48:00
And let's say you're fortunate enough after you spend 60 million to run a phase two uh and it works and a pharma company offers you $5 billion to take the chips off the table.
1:48:08
You could, you know, uh not sell uh run a phase three.
1:48:13
There's a 40% chance it goes to zero, a 60% chance the phase three works and then you can sell for two to 3x peak sales.
1:48:18
Risk adjusted, the rational thing is to sell.
1:48:21
So we're structured as a company as a hub and spoke so it can sell in new code without selling the whole company.
1:48:26
But if you can only take three shots and you hit a winner, you should probably sell, right?
1:48:30
Because if the expected value is 30%.
1:48:32
You know, it's more likely your Mog and N IR is going to be diminished if you kind of run those two shots versus just sell out the B shop.
1:48:39
So, as consequence, our industry usually has biotech get acquired before they can become the next, you know, Ro or or Noartis.
1:48:48
>> Same exact thing consumer package goods, honestly.
1:48:50
Like there there has been like a new >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:48:53
There's no gamble, right? They buy Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:48:57
They buy the protein company.
1:48:58
They buy the supplement company.
1:49:00
They buy the cereal company, but there's no one that's And there's been super ambitious founders that have gone after it, but all of them wind up with point solutions. Yeah.
1:49:08
>> And that and I think to your point, like the second thing that's important is you take enough shots, right?
1:49:10
Because if you can only take three shots, you should sell for the reasons we discussed.
1:49:14
But if you can begin to take more than 10 shots, >> your expected value is three out of 10.
1:49:20
Now we have AI systems and humans have that done better at three out of 10 but it's better to underwrite conservatively and and kind of exceed on the upside.
1:49:26
Once you run 10 shots you expect three out of 10.
1:49:29
Um uh so what the fund allows to is take more shots number one and we can increase the throughput of also the industry.
1:49:37
>> Um but it also allows us to raise capital um and not always have to raise equity.
1:49:41
equity. So it lowers our cost of capital over time >> and you know you'll have like diversified cash flow so you can actually start scaling like the internal mechanism of the business like the opex at an amgen is what makes it a biotech company a big pharma company it's not just that they have one yes they have
1:49:59
cash cow drugs but they have a cash cow drug every 10 years that cycles out so that they can actually sustain the business get the headquarters get the teams get the you know the whole flow flowing and if you're just like a one-trick pony, a one hit wonder, you're going to see this uh you know uh sort of up and down roundtpping of your cash flow, right? >> Do you think uh public opinion do you
1:50:18
>> Do you think uh public opinion do you think public opinion around pharma will be better or worse in 10 years?
1:50:26
>> Um I'm very optimistic it's going to be a lot better specifically because um I think we're beginning to pursue drugs that just help you live longer and healthier.
1:50:33
And you guys know about the GLP ones.
1:50:35
You know, the two top GLP ones did more revenue than OpenAI and Dropic and also kind of did it profitably.
1:50:40
And we think we're early innings of things that just help you live longer and healthier.
1:50:45
So things that help you walk longer like muscle, right?
1:50:47
Uh cartilage, bone density increases, but I think you bring up a point like biotech's really inefficient today because >> you know you're you're really scaling with humans and there's an opportunity to build AI systems that do the work work of entire teams.
1:51:00
And so a pharma company is 100,000 people because in order to prosecute one idea, you need a team of people to go after that.
1:51:06
And and so we built like AI systems that let you exhaustively look at every single drug and target indication pair and then you know design your right trials, run it kind of cheaper and faster, but you also don't have to create a separate team for each asset.
1:51:20
>> And so biotech today like you almost have to have like you know a CMO, a chief development officer, head of quality and and and they're underleveraged in some ways.
1:51:28
So if you can kind of have the best human talent with these AI systems, you can prosecute 10, 15, 20, you know, 50 drugs and not have to be, you know, um 100,000 person company versus a few hundred people.
1:51:40
And that's really excited about >> $600 million. Gone, gone, gone.
1:51:46
>> Thank you so much for coming on the show. Congratulations.
1:51:49
>> Final last last question. >> This is fascinating.
1:51:51
Um >> would you rather have 30,000 monkeys or 30,000 Bitcoin?
1:52:00
Um, I think the monkeys will ultimately >> I think you buy and hold the monkeys.
1:52:05
I I think they might I think they might I think the monkey market might rip harder than >> You think monkey there's going to be the flipping with with crypto you have so much like just like cyber risk right now whereas >> Oh, so if you're so if you're holding on a board ape, you want to get out of board apes and get into real apes.
1:52:23
>> Yeah, >> I think that might be the future.
1:52:23
A lot of monkey business going on.
1:52:25
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
1:52:29
have rest of your day and congratulations. Goodbye.
1:52:32
Uh up next, we are running a little bit late, but we're bringing in the co-founder and CEO of Upline. >> We have Amirum. >> Welcome to the show.
1:52:40
the first appearance with a massive from Bessemer. How you doing? Welcome to the show.
1:52:46
Please introduce yourself and the company.
1:52:50
>> Hey guys, Amiram here. Thank you for having me.
1:52:52
Uh co-founder, CEO of Upwind. Very glad to be here.
1:52:57
>> And and uh introduce the business.
1:52:57
What is the elevator pitch, the log line these days?
1:53:03
>> Upwind protects the cloud and AI for the world. >> Sure.
1:53:06
>> Uh there's a lot of cloud infrastructure out there, a lot of AI usage. Yeah.
1:53:11
>> And Upwin has built a platform that secures all of it from in the entire life cycle.
1:53:16
Uh we've been around since uh 2023 and uh growing fast. >> Super important.
1:53:22
I can imagine you're growing very very fast.
1:53:24
What is the actual go to market motion like today?
1:53:25
I mean cyber security is on the top of everyone's mind.
1:53:31
Ilia Sutzk is tweeting about how neoclouds need better cyber security.
1:53:35
Is is it just uh bye bye bye?
1:53:39
everyone just pulling every tool in or are you actually going up against other cyber security firms for rip and replace? Are you additive?
1:53:45
How do you plug in and just wind up achieving the mission of securing infrastructure more broadly? >> Yes.
1:53:55
So I think first is uh cyber security is having a big moment with AI. >> Yeah. >> Right. Let's face it.
1:54:00
Um every like person is a hacker. Yeah.
1:54:04
person is a hacker. Yeah. with like open source models like you can the damage you can create and let alone like the people who really want to create damage like you know a lot of enterprises are target for attackers >> and we're like in a very like complex geopolitical situation in the world so like there is a lot of things like that
1:54:21
are happening on the cyber security front and AI just makes it like stimulating it >> so and the way we're thinking about it is uh is basically the the way to secure it is uh is really about platform approach because uh if you think about like the average CISO like when they need to buy a security tool like how much real estate do you really have to deploy all these like thousands of vendors? >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:54:46
>> Um so we've been taking like a platform approach that can actually take you all the way from protecting your secure development, secure deployment in the cloud, secure runtime in the cloud and now AI lives everywhere.
1:54:56
So we are really coming against like to your question against the platforms like the big platforms and we think that's the right place to be because this is what customers really want.
1:55:08
>> Is your experience at spot and maybe you can tell the audience what you were doing there uh relevant here because you've seen the nature of uh enterprise cloud surface areas and so you know what solutions will uh be adopted most aggressively.
1:55:24
You know when when I go on a on a call with customers and they ask me what's unique about upwin what's can you tell us what's what's the differentiation of upwin so I tell them the first thing is that we're not coming from cyber security background >> we're building a cyber security company not with cyber security background like our background is from like you know devops and infrastructure we had a company before called spot.
1:55:43
company before called spot.io IO we helped thousands of organizations to scale their compute uh infrastructure efficiently on AWS on on Azure on GCP >> and that knowledge of understanding how DevOps people think how infrastructure is wired how cloud ops is working it's
1:56:02
helping us to like like help security team unlock context of operations that they never had before and that's actually the X factor of solving like taking a problem from like a like a security finding an alert into like a real something that I really understand the risk and I can really fix it. >> How is uh how is like what is the state
1:56:22
>> How is uh how is like what is the state of vibe coding right now that we we all kind of predicted that uh you know there'd be tons of slop and stuff would might start breaking and it's kind of happening but it's not even fully uh I I I I don't think it's fair to put the blame for some of these cyber security attacks on vibe coding.
1:56:39
A lot of people have are breaking into systems that are just like, yeah, actually it's just somebody who was running PHP and the normal like LAMP lampstack.
1:56:46
Uh they didn't vibe code anything because they built it 10 years ago and now they're vulnerable.
1:56:51
And so uh where when you're talking to uh CEO, CIOS, um what are the threat models that they're most worried about today?
1:57:01
>> You know, I'll just tell you like a funny story like we had last week >> we had uh like a really important feature that I wanted to be deployed as soon as possible. Sure.
1:57:10
>> So, I went to the developer and I said, "I'm going to go on a on a Zoom with you right now to make sure like we're deploying it because there's like some, you know, final things."
1:57:17
And then I go on a call and he's sharing my the screen and I tell him like, "Change this, do that."
1:57:24
>> And then the guy doesn't write code. >> He's just prompting.
1:57:28
>> He's like, >> it's just like prompting. >> Yeah.
1:57:30
>> It's like change this, do that.
1:57:32
>> This sounds like something out of an office space. done that.
1:57:35
>> So your job is to take the prompt from the CEO and give it to codeex and cloud code >> and I could just dictate >> to the AI agents like yeah kind of yeah >> and then I asked him so like so that's what we're doing right now.
1:57:46
So like we're just prompting and then he said like yeah like my coding like time has dropped down by 90%.
1:57:53
But the review time is up by 600%. >> Sure. Sure. Yeah. So burn the midnight.
1:58:01
>> So I think like you have to be really really smart on like how to review that. >> Yeah.
1:58:04
I think Karpathy had a a take about this where he said like your review this your code writing ability atrophies while your code reading ability increases and that's probably more important than ever in the modern era. Fascinating.
1:58:15
Uh well tell us about the round a series C. How big was it? How much did you raise? >> $400 million. >> Let's go. >> Congrats. >> He's not playing. He's not playing.
1:58:30
>> That's you know that that's a lot of money. That's a lot of money.
1:58:31
And I I I can tell you that this is what's needed >> to operate in that very important space. Yeah.
1:58:38
>> Like it's a super important space. You have to build. You have to innovate. We have big dreams now.
1:58:41
Like we can translate those dreams into execution.
1:58:45
We have the right amount of cash.
1:58:47
>> Um and lots of trust from investors, lot of trust from customers.
1:58:50
Um and >> yeah, it puts us as like one of the most capitalized companies on the planet to secure that cloud and AI.
1:58:58
Yeah, we need it more than ever now.
1:59:01
We saw with the PHP pack.
1:59:03
So, thank you for everything you're doing and good luck and thank you so much for taking time to come on the show. >> Appreciate you guys. Thank you. Thank you, dude.
1:59:12
>> Let me tell you about the New York Stock Exchange.
1:59:14
Want to change the world?
1:59:15
Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange.
1:59:17
You're trying to get more than 400 million, you got to head to the New York Stock Exchange.
1:59:21
Our next guest is Jasper Jang from Hyperbolic, co-founder and CEO.
1:59:27
first appearance on here.
1:59:31
>> Jasper, how are you doing? Welcome to the show. >> Hey, how's it going?
1:59:34
>> Sorry for keeping you guys.
1:59:36
>> Thank you so much for hopping on.
1:59:36
Uh, please introduce yourself and the company.
1:59:41
>> Hey everyone, I'm Jasper.
1:59:41
I'm the CEO of Appabolic.
1:59:44
>> I grew up doing math competitions and won a few medals at Chinese Moly Alibaba Global Math Competitions.
1:59:49
I finished my math PhD at UC Berkeley in two years, which made me the fastest person to finish a PhD in official Berkeley.
1:59:54
What stopped you from doing it in what stopped you just out of curiosity from doing it in one year?
2:00:02
>> Like, >> oh, Berkeley has a residency requirement.
2:00:04
So, technically you need two years.
2:00:08
>> So, without that requirement, you think you could have done it in a couple months, maybe a month.
2:00:12
>> Um, with AI now, I think so. Yeah. >> Oh, really? Okay. Okay.
2:00:16
>> Did you have you ever faced uh Scott Woo? >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah.
2:00:21
Uh, I mean, I heard about him. Yeah.
2:00:24
Haven't met him in person. No, no.
2:00:26
I meant like But you guys were kind of competing in different regions.
2:00:28
It sounds like I was hoping that we could find a video of you guys like going to Yeah.
2:00:34
Like like old LeBron videos. Yeah. High school sparring. >> Yeah. Uh that'd be great.
2:00:38
But tell us about the company.
2:00:42
What What are you building?
2:00:42
How how has it been going?
2:00:45
>> Yeah, it's been pretty great.
2:00:45
I mean, uh we aggregate and turn heterogeneous compute >> into one unified platform. Okay. Okay.
2:00:53
>> So, it's a platform where people can just come access comput in a very flexible way.
2:00:57
>> They can manage and orchestrate the compute globally and then sell the compute back >> when they don't need it.
2:01:02
>> How heterogeneous are we talking about?
2:01:03
Because we saw a uh a cluster of 9,000 A100s on eBay earlier today for something like $60 million.
2:01:10
Then, you know, you got people with a gaming PC that might have a you know, 5090 Nvidia card in it. Uh how low can you go?
2:01:17
What is the practical scale to that heterogeneity? >> Yeah, totally.
2:01:23
So, our technology support any kinds of uh GPU chips, but then uh technically I think most customers want at least the A100 plus okay uh chips.
2:01:33
We're also starting seeing people using Pro 6000 for inference as well, but we can go as high as to Blackwell and Barry. >> Yeah.
2:01:41
Uh how much uh spare compute is out there?
2:01:44
because you you it feels like every day there's a new story about like oh there's such a compute shortage like tokens are selling like you know the the the the spot market is in contango and like the there's so much AI demand and yet you're still finding folks out there that have spare capacity to bring on the platform. Is that correct?
2:02:06
>> Yeah, I would say we're not just tackling spare capacity even for like a big cluster.
2:02:09
Our goal is to maximize the revenue per GPU hour, right?
2:02:12
revenue per GPU hour, right? Like >> technically you can sell off tech for B300 $4 for5 $5 but it's like very low margin business >> if everyone even if you're new cloud you want like to maximize your revenue to $10 $20 per GP hour >> sure >> you can work with us
2:02:28
>> yeah and so uh are you seeing like what is driving uh that incremental offtake is it that there's a company that is renting a cluster and they're doing a training run then they pause for a little bit to review the results and so you can go do some inference right there
2:02:44
or is it uh you're doing stuff on the other side of the world when everyone's working with the big models during their workday but then they're maybe uh the GPUs aren't on fire in the middle of the night so you can sell inference somewhere else like what are the use cases that are uh that that your
2:02:58
customers are coming to you for specifically >> yeah so I'll say uh what the all the cases I mentioned are valid for us >> and I would say we start with first helping customers to get access to compute first >> so you know like there are more than 300 plus new clouds Mhm. >> The market is super fat mainten
2:03:13
>> The market is super fat mainten >> and it's the first time that technology company founder need to started worrying about sourcing procurement but also the cash flow the >> capital the hatch tagging and risk management. >> Yeah.
2:03:26
And so uh what we do is that we kind of have u like the system which is called uh forge which is a unified control plan that allow us to take any bare metal cluster attach it to our platform and now it can be shared globally >> with uh different customers in a very flexible way.
2:03:42
So they will start using the compute from our platform and then let's say if they lock in for three year contract or like a few a few year contract >> then like what you said if they are doing training run after the training run they don't need that they can also sell it back to a market and the same for vis uh inference too.
2:03:59
>> So Intel's CEO Lip Bhutan's backing up the truck for this company.
2:04:02
What is your interaction with him and Intel?
2:04:05
he's backing up the truck investing.
2:04:08
Uh but uh you know obviously he's you know an incredibly important uh CEO in the AI world, but uh it's not like he's running a NeoCloud that needs offtake capacity necessarily like there's not a super logical business relationship that I can think of.
2:04:26
But do you see this growing into a strategic relationship or is it just you're you got along great and he had the capital to invest?
2:04:31
Yeah, I'll say uh fundamentally like he's uh outside of Intel is the VC, right?
2:04:37
He he he founded Wen Catalyst which is the best semiconductor. >> Yeah.
2:04:43
>> VC in the Silicon Valley. >> Yeah.
2:04:45
>> And so yeah like the business ran very well and I uh he I think he see the upside of >> building this like aggregation layer orchestration layer. >> Yeah.
2:04:53
>> Uh but then our goal is like we're trying to aggregate >> the world's compute.
2:04:57
We want to put the world's comput behind the people who are bold enough to change the world. Right.
2:05:03
So, uh, naturally, uh, there's a potentially strategic angle here to leverage other kind of chips. >> Yeah.
2:05:09
Well, you raised $30 million.
2:05:09
I'm going to hit the gong for you. Congratulations. And >> thank you. >> Thanks.
2:05:18
>> Because you guys call this the A1, I feel like you might be back on in like a week or so for the A2.
2:05:22
So, >> for sure, >> it's an exciting time.
2:05:27
>> We have investors putting money for the next round. So, >> there we go. >> There we go. Breaking news.
2:05:31
a call when you're when you're ready to come back on to announce the the second trunch.
2:05:37
>> Have a great rest of your day.
2:05:37
>> We won't name the second trunch, but >> and thank you so much to meet you >> for coming on TVPPS.
2:05:41
Have a great rest of your day. Goodbye.
2:05:45
>> And that is our show, folks.
2:05:45
We will be back tomorrow at 11:00 a. m. Pacific.
2:05:51
What did that have to do with what I said? >> Show's over. >> Oh, show's over.
2:05:54
You can take off your headset because normally I think about like I heard something I didn't like, but I understand.
2:06:00
Well, some people might be nuance pissed off that the show >> show's over.
2:06:04
I can't deal with no show. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, got it.
2:06:08
Well, uh, thank you so much for tuning in to TBPN and we will see you tomorrow. It's been an honor.
2:06:15
Have the best Wednesday >> of your life. >> Of your entire life.
2:06:20
>> Leave us five stars on Apple Podcast and Spotify.
2:06:21
Sign up for our newsletter at tvpn. com.
2:06:24
>> We didn't We haven't been doing a road to Halloween.
2:06:26
>> No, >> we're not big Halloween guys, but we might.
2:06:30
But I am I am I I'm kind of excited.
2:06:32
>> You've been taking your eye off the ball. Okay. Yeah, >> I am. I am.
2:06:34
I I think Friday's show might be fun. >> Okay.
2:06:38
>> I think we might have a good time. >> You got to tune in. Hit the subscribe bell.
2:06:41
Set a calendar notification. 11:00 a. m.
2:06:44
Pacific on Friday is going to be one for the ages. >> That's right.
2:06:48
>> You're going to want to tune in.
2:06:49
>> It's going to be a good time.
2:06:50
>> It's going to be great.
2:06:51
>> Flash multiple journalists on the horizon. Stand by.