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I find it when you go on those journeys, there's something about the badness in it that you have to face in yourself.
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And it's whether you take the lesson, and if you don't take that lesson, you will meet it again.
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Oscar-winning actor, writer, director, producer.
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Please welcome Daniel Kaluuya.
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Anything I'm doing now, I've totally been told I can't do.
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I've totally been told I can't act.
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I was like, "Talk to some people."
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And then they were like, "You're not going to make it." So why I think I can.
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Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed.
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The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty.
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The one, the only, Jay Shetty.
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I always like starting with this question because I think I'm intrigued to see where you take it.
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Like, what would you say is your earliest childhood memory that defines who you are today? There's one, yeah. There was one.
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I grew up quite a fat kid, yeah.
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And then you used to go scouts, cubs and scouts.
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You go into like, I don't know, some random place in the countryside, go into a camping or something.
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And then like there's potholes. You know about potholes?
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Where you go in there, boom, boom.
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So I go and run through this pothole, run through this pothole, yeah.
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And then like I'm doing this pothole, boom, going in.
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And then everyone starts laughing cuz I'm fat.
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Everyone was like, "Oh, like Dan's not going to fit. Dan's not going to fit." I got in there.
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And then halfway through, it gets narrower and narrower. And I proper didn't fit. And they looked in.
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Bunch of kids were like, I must have been nine, eight.
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They were like, "He's filled up the whole thing."
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They're just laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing.
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And then I was like, "Right, cool. I can't really go back."
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So it was only really And I'm actually half filled it.
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So then I was like, "All right, cool."
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And I just found a way to I was just like, I knew how to like change my body and go I'm going to get out. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it.
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And then I realized they were laughing and then as I was getting closer closer to the exit, they just stopped laughing. They stopped laughing. They stopped laughing.
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And then by the end they clapped.
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And I think after that I was like right there.
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I don't know I look back and go I think it really changed how I saw everything.
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My life I go bro what what is what what do you to me?
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Like you know what I'm saying?
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It's like I kind of felt had the energy of like just push through.
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Just do what you're supposed to do.
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Just do what you're supposed to do and you get to the end.
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And people that will say things that will tell you say you're weird, say you're odd.
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By the end of it not that they'll clap.
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You can make them I don't know it doesn't matter about them.
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It just matters about you getting there. Mhm.
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You know what I'm saying?
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And I think a few years ago before then I really cared about the clap.
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I really care like you I'm going to make you clap.
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I'm pissed I'm going to make you clap.
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I think in that moment I saw my character.
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I saw what I'm actually about in that moment. And yeah.
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And then they just respected me. Yeah. That's it.
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And then it was what I gained respect. So yeah. Yeah.
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And you think that that still applies today? It always. Yeah, man.
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Like do you know how many people say you can't do something? All right. Everything's made up. don't make sense.
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you been told that you couldn't do? Name it.
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No like anything I'm doing now I've told I've been told I can't do.
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I've been told I couldn't act.
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I wouldn't be able to make a career out of it. Connections. I was on Parkway. Like in Camden.
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There's No connections there. Yeah.
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Well like saying and my mom was just stressed like if she want to act I got to like talk to some people and then they were like you ain't going to make it.
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I said well I think I can. And I was like I'm 15. I think I can, you know. They said no no no no.
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So it's all that kind of stuff like you're consistently kind of told that like it won't happen.
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And I just didn't believe that.
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So that's why I really would keep it secret what I was doing on my dreams and my hopes on my even hopes like what I see.
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Like if I can see it, that means I can do it.
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So, it's more that like every everything everything like you told you can't do.
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Even like being a away from race even the class that I'm from from.
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Like saying oh, you can't do that. What you talking about? It is nuts.
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Like I just I've always just been like Yeah.
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But then that was very much the mentality of my school.
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Like it was very like All right, cool. You ain't got money. All right, cool.
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Let's sell chocolate bars. All right, cool. Let's sell crisps. All right, cool.
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It's just like you've got to make it work no matter what.
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So, I've always come I feel like I've come from that cloth. Yeah.
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Did you find that keeping it secret was useful?
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Yeah, cuz it meant that I was able to fail in private Mhm.
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and just grow at my own pace and have it and and basically what it was I realized in hindsight in acting and writing all this kind of stuff.
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I realized I found what it meant to me. Mhm.
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I found what my definition of it is. I found my style. I found what I liked.
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That was So, it was mine.
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It wasn't like oh, I got it from here or I got it from there.
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It was now this is what I think.
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This is how I've got to this. Mhm.
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So, that's like why I'm happy I did it.
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Cuz I felt like in hindsight I felt I was a bit too ahead of people that I was around in terms of what I was focused on. Mhm.
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Cuz it's quite odd if I think about think back. Yeah. I was like yeah, man. I'm going to do this. Oh.
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I'm like is that you mean it?
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Like no one in my family's doing it.
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No one no one's doing it. Yeah. But I just think I can.
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Do you know what I'm saying?
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So, it's like um So, I think it's it's that. Yeah.
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Yeah, where did that belief come from at that age at 15 to go I can even though no one's saying it?
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Like where where did that inspiration come from?
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Was it was it from what you were watching or Prince. Yeah.
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I was watching Wayans brothers.
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I was watching it I don't know.
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Sponge No, SpongeBob was a bit past my um bedtime. Simpsons maybe?
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Simpsons, Ed, Edd n Eddy.
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Like I was watching like Laugh. Ed, Edd n Eddy.
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Yeah, I was watching Laugh.
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Like do you know what I'm saying?
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I wasn't really like I don't know. I just believed. I don't know.
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I just kind of was like No, I don't believe you. Yeah. I don't know you.
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Like I back in the day I was like like say I don't remember John Major, yeah? Prime Minister all that.
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I was like they said he told you to do something.
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I'm like, but I don't know him.
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I can't even How can someone I don't know tell me what to do? Yeah. Kind of nuts.
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If I know someone like you know what I mean?
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It's like Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So that's why I was like I just always You know, I realized I think I just I'm blessed I have faith. Mhm.
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And I think I just have faith.
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And I realized I wrote something the other day and I think the difference between faith and delusion is God.
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And I'm not saying like oh God.
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It's just like I just have faith. Like I just had faith. I just just believed.
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And I think maybe I saw my family doing amazing things.
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Like not amazing things in the sense that like making something work or going on for a holiday or they just didn't accept the right outcome than like say someone said to act all right, cool.
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You can't afford that, but we can do this. Mhm. They just pushed on.
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They didn't They didn't let the environment or the boundaries define what they thought was possible in their mind. Mhm.
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So I think it was that really bit. Yeah, I love that.
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I love hearing that your parents were saying yes and.
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Like it wasn't like no but it was yes and, right?
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And so you just keep like, yo, what like how are you going to like how are you going to do this? She would challenge me. Always challenge me.
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And then I said, all right, this is this is this.
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But I realized she was just like going trying to test me if I really believed in it. Mhm.
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And then and then again like I probably needed that.
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I did need that cuz I needed to know it for my I was aware of it. Mhm.
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So then I was like all right, cool.
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This is what's going to happen.
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And then she looked at it and I was like, okay, I believe you. All right, cool. Let's go. Like this is the way. I know this is the way.
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I know I can make it work.
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So, I think it was just like I just put I just believed.
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I don't know where it come from.
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I think it's just a gift, isn't it?
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I just I just try and honor it and try and do good with it.
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I don't try and like I intellectualize it.
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Do you know what I'm saying?
7:56
Yeah, yeah, I get that, man. I get that. That makes sense.
7:57
And obviously like I I heard I was watching your Hot Ones, which I loved. Yeah.
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And uh on there you talked about how like you wrote your first piece when you were 9 years old.
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And I was thinking it's amazing now because with the work that you're doing now, with the kitchen and like production and writing, like you're kind of almost doing this full circle piece.
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Why was writing where you started?
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Because I don't think a lot of people know that.
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Like, I didn't know that as well.
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Like, I've discovered you as an actor and and loved your work, but like what was it about writing that drew it drew you to it at 9 years old?
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And tell us about that piece, too.
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I know I know I know um I don't know.
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I was at school one time.
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It's before this play competition, which is what I won at 9.
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I was at school one time, and they said the teacher told me to write something.
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And in my in my heart I knew I could do this sick.
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I know I could do this sick, and I wrote something.
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I thought it was amazing. Yeah.
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And the teacher gave me a rubbish grade, and I'm like, "You're wrong." I think you're wrong.
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Like, I really like this.
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And then like that that that competition it was just basically like it was a playwriting course.
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They come to your school in Camden.
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Roy Williams, who's a really big play right now, was a teacher then.
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And then like a teacher shamed me and was like, "Oh, like like Daniel, you're messing about." I was I was mischievous.
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Like, "You're messing about."
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I'm like I'm like I'm like no.
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I'm like, "I don't like this one."
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And then so I was like, "All right, cool."
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And I was like, "All right, cool. I'll show you. I'll show you." Then I wrote this play.
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It's based on Kenan & Kel, about these guys that work in a shop.
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I love Kenan & And they just had a friendship.
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And then like I got to the next round.
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It was a couple of us in the next round.
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And then I would just write.
9:32
And then the those guys, Jonathan Siddle and Roy, were like they were I knew I at that time they knew and they I feel like they knew I had something cuz I just felt the energy in them.
9:41
I was like, "Yeah, I just this is what I think."
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Cuz I had to think of it. I don't know.
9:43
And then like then I won it.
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Then my whole school year came to Hampstead Theatre to watch it.
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So my Arsenal top I got a picture now. I'm just flexing.
9:53
And then like and then yeah, I mean they told me like keep going, keep going.
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I'm like, "Bro, I'm going to play out. I'm not going to write."
10:00
And then I I did a play for a William Shakespeare play like 121.
10:02
And then he told me after it, yeah.
10:05
He was like, "Yeah, do you know that like the teachers didn't want to pick you?"
10:09
They were like, "Don't, he's too bad. Don't, he's too bad."
10:11
And then Rowe was like, "I'm definitely going to pick him."
10:14
So it's just that was a kind of like I had that antagonistic energy in class, but I just I don't know.
10:20
I just I knew how to I knew dialogue. I knew how people spoke.
10:24
But I think a lot of it's to do because I was like in my family I didn't speak my language.
10:30
So then I was like sit at family events and then I'm like watching. You know what I mean?
10:35
I can see that in hindsight.
10:39
Like I would observe and I would like piece and I know how to pick tone and energy and I feel it cuz I have to.
10:46
You know what I'm saying?
10:46
So I think that's where it came from.
10:47
And then I stopped and then I got the picture back up at 16.
10:52
So to get back in the game, but during that time I got into acting and and then I got into that too, improv, which is actually writing on your feet.
10:59
So then I was honing that skill set.
11:01
So when I got back to play writing again it was easy. Er.
11:04
Tell us about some of the improv cuz I feel like that's such a fascinating skill and I love how you said writing on your feet.
11:10
Like that's a that's a cool way of thinking about it and I feel like improv almost demands so much from an artist in a way that other work doesn't.
11:18
How how would you Is there Is there like a funny moment of improv that you did with a group or something a story that you went through that you're like, "Oh, I remember that and that was a moment where I was like, oh, I can write on my feet. I can actually do this."
11:30
I I think I I we're was about in class and then um Evelyn told me and Marcus they were just like, "You guys are messing about.
11:38
We're in the community class."
11:40
And then he said, "You're in the community class then if you're good enough to get to the YPs." Young professionals.
11:43
And then like he was just like, "Oh, like you guys don't get it."
11:47
And then they went on stage and they just acted and I watched it and I was like, "Copy. I get it.
11:53
I understand what you're doing. I understand."
11:54
And then after that point I got it cuz I needed to see it. Go, "All right, cool. I I I I I get you. I get you. I get you."
12:01
What I love about it is that you just let it go. You're not holding on.
12:03
I have moments that my friends remind me if I see them go, "Oh, yeah, remember when you brought out that iron?"
12:11
Oh, like you know what I mean? As a prop.
12:14
But it's I just had this rule is that once you're in your head you're dead. Yeah, yeah.
12:17
So you just got And also it's like It's like what you said, like improv is yes and. Mhm. So you can't reject.
12:22
You know what I'm saying?
12:22
So it's just like If someone says something crazy, you just got to go with it. You know what I mean?
12:27
And you go, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah."
12:28
And then also someone doesn't know how to do it.
12:29
I learned how to drive it.
12:31
So today is if you didn't know how to do it, I'd be like, "Yeah, like why are you nodding like that?"
12:35
Why are you nodding like And I have to respond and I cuz I'm agreeing with you. About what?
12:39
I'm agreeing with you based on what you said about um What exactly did I say then? You know what I mean?
12:44
And then And then you yeah and then you build You feel me?
12:46
And then And then like you clock how to like Yeah.
12:49
And that's real dialogue, too, right? Like yeah.
12:51
Exactly cuz you're listening.
12:52
You're interrupting and listening.
12:53
You're not just But you're then by doing that you're playing a character that doesn't listen. Mhm.
12:58
Or listens too closely that they don't They hear and they're not listening. Yeah.
13:01
They're trying to find And then so you're building that character through those interactions and then you're honing it through the interactions and then you land. All right, cool. Bang.
13:12
So it's It's like So that's how I kind of learned how to do it. More It's more that. Yeah. Don't know.
13:18
I don't It's hard to like describe that. Yeah, yeah.
13:19
I I don't know why I'm going down this road but you mentioned it and I'm I'm listening so I was like You said you're an Arsenal fan. Yeah, go on. I'm a United fan.
13:31
You've been an Arsenal fan forever.
13:32
What's your What's been your favorite team at Arsenal over the years? Oh, man.
13:37
I'd have to say like um my favorite was Adams, right? Yeah. Keown?
13:43
Keown, Winterburn, Overmars.
13:45
When they bought That was crazy. Parlour? This was like '98. Like, come on, man.
13:50
That was like That was like But that's when I fell in love. Do you understand?
13:54
I was like, "These Oh my god."
13:55
Like Everyone was just Everyone was just firing.
14:01
So, I just I just I don't know.
14:01
And also, it's my local team, innit?
14:03
So, then it was just like Say if we won a cup, the area was happy. Yeah. You know what I mean?
14:08
It's not like That's where it came from.
14:09
It's like say There was a time when we didn't win a cup for 9 years, and then we did FA Cup, and I I watched it at Holloway and all that kind of stuff, and then And the next day, it was like there was all Arsenal fans outside of windows, people like You know when they dusty vans, they write in stuff on the dusty vans?
14:23
It was just everyone was happy.
14:26
Even if you weren't an Arsenal fan, you were just happy The area was happy. Yeah.
14:29
So, it was that was the It was a close connection, and then I don't know.
14:32
It was cool, the fact that I could go to games.
14:34
Obviously, the Carling Cup games, cuz all the other games were hard to get.
14:36
I went to Marc Overmars testimonial, actually.
14:38
But like it was like It was like I don't know.
14:39
You just felt like a community.
14:43
Like when the when thing when they scored high, we'd have the upper the upper table just rock. Yeah.
14:48
You think it would break.
14:48
I said, "There's a bit of danger."
14:50
You know what I'm saying?
14:51
There was just It was just like And then it's like my mom's friend used to give me tickets when she went away.
14:56
So, then I'd watch like wicked games or rubbish games, but I was part of it from like young. You know what I mean?
15:01
You could get a ticket even if you couldn't afford it.
15:05
You know what I'm saying?
15:05
So, it was I just fell in love with it during that age, yeah.
15:07
And you had a lot of happy days, but I think you had a lot of unhappy days as well. Stressful.
15:10
I don't want to put people out there, cuz this is a public forum, but it was stress. It was stress.
15:14
But like I I can I'm very I'm very I see like I'm very child of Wenger.
15:21
like I can see I'm very stubborn.
15:23
Like I very like a lot of how Arsenal is is in me, I feel like.
15:28
Cuz it's not it's bigger than just football.
15:30
Like they have a philosophy, do you know what I mean? They have a style. That era had a style.
15:32
In this they had a style. And I just respected it.
15:36
Do you know what I'm saying?
15:36
And I just And I think it's the guy into a school in Islington.
15:39
And the Islington team Yeah. is the one.
15:44
And then you're like literally looking at the sun in the paper the next day in school and then it's the Invincibles.
15:49
And they're talking about your local team.
15:50
It change it I think it makes you think like Yeah, yeah. We're the guys.
15:56
At such a formative age, you know what I mean? So Yeah, yeah.
15:59
I think there's a bit of that.
16:00
Well, that's where I struggled because so I always say this that every Indian person that moved to England in like the 70s and 80s, I mean my dad, they only support Manchester United or Liverpool because those are the big clubs at the time.
16:14
Like those are the clubs winning everything.
16:15
And so I support United because of that.
16:16
I never lived in Manchester.
16:19
And so I never had a happy day in the town cuz I still almost have to like shy away from saying I was a United fan cuz I lived right in between Highbury and Spurs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:28
So that's where I grew up in Wood Green, like right in between.
16:30
And so I never got to go out and celebrate in the town because I didn't live in Manchester.
16:33
And so I always like grew up in fear of like oh I can't tell anyone what I follow and like what I do and Why isn't there a lot of Indian players in football?
16:42
I've always wanted to know that.
16:43
That's a That's a great question, you know?
16:45
And I think it's because a lot of parents don't you know if if a if an Indian kid told their parent they wanted to be a football player, I mean I just got to look at these two and go what what do you think what do you think the parents would have said?
16:55
What do you think the parents would have said? Yeah, definitely not.
16:58
No matter how good they were.
17:00
I was telling Ross to be one of our mates his I'm calling him out here.
17:03
His kids like supposedly quite decent at football, like and I told him yesterday I was like mate you got to let this kid chase football like chase the dream and I don't know if as a culture I think our parents worked so hard and they wanted us to have safety And so they didn't want the kids to do anything that felt unsafe.
17:20
So acting would also be a no-go.
17:22
You don't see that many South Asian people in acting.
17:24
I mean, it's growing now for sure, especially the London scene, but acting, media, anything that was uncertain or unsafe, Indian parents generally were like, "No."
17:34
They didn't want us to be a part of it cuz they just wanted us to not have the struggle they did.
17:37
And so they wanted us to feel safety, security, and so if you can get a good job, right? That makes sense.
17:42
If you could get a good job that paid the bills to care of you, they were happy.
17:46
They just wanted you to be safe. That's interesting.
17:48
I'm interested in like how cultural um values dictate what the path are because the demographic is they should be lots of In the like if you look at it as a demographically, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
17:59
Everyone plays at school and then it gets called off.
18:01
Like I remember with my parents, too.
18:02
It's like they they want you to play, they want you to be sporty, but they don't want you to take it that seriously.
18:07
I had friends at my school that were amazing at cricket, like incredible cricket players that were playing for England under 21s, England under 18s, and then went off to be accountants because their parents wouldn't let them like, you know, follow the dream.
18:20
And so it's it's really interesting seeing who pushes back through that as well.
18:23
Like some people just go, "No, I'm going to try anyway."
18:26
And some people fold and and let it go.
18:29
But I'm hop- I'm hoping it changes. I'm hoping it changes. Great. Yeah.
18:32
What were What were some cultural things that you think held you back?
18:35
I mean, you've you've talked a bit about the racism you experienced.
18:36
You know, for me when I when I was hearing about that, I thought that doesn't sound easy when you add it to the other bullying and shaming you were talking about earlier.
18:45
Like, what was it like navigating that? Um what specifically?
18:49
Well, you talked about what From what I've heard, what you've talked about is like it took you a long time to realize that you felt darker than the people that you were around.
19:00
And so there was this whole and you felt that they made you feel bad for that.
19:04
When I got into secondary and I was more predominantly black school, that's when I realized that I was darker than the average black person that I grew up around or I was around.
19:13
And then they would tell me it was a kind of culture shock, but then I was darker than a lot of people in my family. Mhm.
19:20
So then it was even that made me feel a bit different.
19:24
And so then I was just like, "Oh, yeah, I don't really know what's going on."
19:28
And then but then obviously like at that age you kind of go through racism, but you're in a predominantly black space.
19:34
You're not you go through colorism.
19:38
And then like you go out of it and then mean like got good grades and then start going to a different school like more middle class upper class school then you deal with you see racism. Mhm.
19:48
But you see people do things you're like, "What's that?" That's weird. What's that? What's weird?
19:51
You haven't really felt like you're you've got the right to go, "Oh, that's that."
19:54
You know what I'm saying? Mhm.
19:56
And you ain't got no one to talk to that understands what's happening. Mhm.
20:00
Then it just started getting a bit more the more the more like kind of more into the workforce the more that you would face it. Yeah.
20:07
And the more asleep people are to it. Mhm.
20:10
And you got to call it out.
20:11
What I used to say is that like um cuz one time like I was getting not getting roles cuz of acting and that cuz of and then I was like, "Oh, yeah."
20:16
I was making all these excuses and then my agent at the time was Irish.
20:21
And he was like, "Yeah, well, that is cuz you're black."
20:24
I said, "What do you mean?"
20:24
He said, "It's cuz you're black."
20:27
He said, "It doesn't have to tell anyone else.
20:28
You should be getting It doesn't matter. You should be black."
20:30
I was like and I was like allowed to kind of like accept it.
20:35
And then I would tell people it was racism and they kind of would wouldn't believe me.
20:41
Then when I said, "Oh, my Irish agent said it."
20:42
they're like, "Oh, is it?"
20:42
So I realized in when you're black you feel you don't have the disease but you feel the dis- symptoms but you're not allowed to diagnose it.
20:57
It has to be someone outside of yourself that says that's what's happening and that means it's more valid.
21:04
You know what I'm saying?
21:04
Usually the people that it's come from.
21:07
Because your seeing is too biased because you have the symptoms.
21:10
So that's what I realized about it.
21:10
Like you're just going through it you're like oh right that's kind of nuts.
21:14
I can't really even say it.
21:15
And that's what my subconscious is going like yeah if I say it He's got a chip on his shoulder.
21:21
That's why they say he's got a chip on his shoulder bro.
21:23
I mean no chips on my shoulder bro.
21:24
Like do you know what I mean? It's nuts.
21:25
Like it's nuts what people are saying.
21:27
It's like it's common and people are like and so I think that's what it is.
21:31
You're like just navigating all of those things.
21:34
Like so it took me a long it took me a long time to figure it out. Yeah.
21:38
I'm still figuring it out.
21:41
Yeah I feel like that's something that you don't ever figure out because it's like I love how you described that.
21:46
Never heard it described like that but the idea of how because you have the symptoms you can't be the one to diagnose it but you can't be the one to express it which feels so difficult because it's almost like this is my reality but you need someone else to validate your reality. 100%.
22:01
And that is a that is a really interesting prison to live in.
22:05
I could say Jay like what do you what do you love in life? What do I love?
22:09
Like away from like family. Like what do you love? Football. Football.
22:12
Imagine my comment they go hey Jay why do people don't like football?
22:16
Yeah and I'll be like yeah I don't know.
22:18
So when people go why do people don't like black people? Why would I know?
22:21
Yeah you don't know yeah.
22:23
So then that's what I'm saying it's like there's something is it's a it's gaslighting. Yeah yeah.
22:27
At the same cuz it's like I don't how am I supposed to but then when I initiate it and say this has happened I'm not believed. Mhm.
22:36
But then I'm supposed to report about it when it's happening to me from there to justify what they're doing. Mhm.
22:42
It's it's a whole like it doesn't really make sense what's happening.
22:44
If I go this is happening no one that's not true and then they they'll have a whole lawyer or someone like a professor that has a whole dossier and then now if he says it cuz he wrote 80 pages of waffle they believe him. Yeah. But I told you.
23:00
You're just saying that his word his word is worth more than mine.
23:02
And that in that is racism. I'll say this. It's not worth it.
23:09
It's just not worth anything to you.
23:11
And I had to really learn that my word is worth something to me. To me.
23:16
And so then like I just I just move like that.
23:18
So I just don't really like kind of engage with the narratives cuz it's just people just making up things that protect what they like about it.
23:26
Cuz you only things are kept because they like something about it.
23:28
Cuz if they didn't they'd get rid of it.
23:31
They'd change the culture.
23:31
You see how they change other things. Yeah. You change the culture.
23:34
There's something that it protects I feel.
23:38
Yeah, I find when I'm talking to you I find that you've kind of really worked on like making peace with how you feel about yourself.
23:44
And and how you feel about your views and how you feel about your art.
23:49
Like there seems to be this autonomy and independence in saying as you were saying earlier even when you were given a bad grade you were like, "Nah, nah, but I know this is good."
24:01
And even what you were saying before where you were like, "It gave you space to fail in private because you were like, 'Nah, nah, I know that I'm working on myself.'"
24:08
So it feels like you've really worked on having this internal peace.
24:12
How hard is that as your career kind of does the opposite, right?
24:15
So it's like you're getting more and more focused on giving yourself peace, which is an amazing skill like I'm I'm loving to see it on display and I know everyone's going to appreciate seeing it.
24:26
And at the same time it's like you're you're doing bigger and bigger things.
24:29
So you're more and more exposed to other people's opinions.
24:31
How have you managed to or or how are you managing to continue to kind of hold on to that core of that 9-year-old and that 15-year-old?
24:41
I mean like I think I always just have it like it's just mine. Yeah.
24:43
So it's not something but I think it's like what happens is is how I I've done things that causes a ruckus or chaos. In my sphere.
24:55
And so like you just got to accept that you're a bit chaotic. You know what I mean?
24:58
It's like It's like It's like there's something That doesn't mean that's you, but there's something there that you have to look at.
25:03
If it's nuts like that, you have to look at it.
25:05
Cool like What Where is that? Like cool, what's that?
25:11
And then you get closer to being like cool with it or then it will quiet down.
25:15
But there's something that I'm not looking at.
25:16
If it goes a bit mad or you care too much what people think.
25:18
Do you know what I'm saying?
25:20
It's like you have to accept that. Just go all right, cool. What Why is that? What's happening there?
25:24
I feel like But yeah, no, it's It's been Last few years has been It's been wild.
25:28
But like it's been like I've done it in a very quiet way.
25:32
But it's been wild It's been wild in the sense of what happens and and stuff like that.
25:38
But that's what happens at the like the narratives that I've been a part of are powerful.
25:42
And like and decisions I've made to like stand on things that I believe in or even basically like a lot of the I know what I like. And I like what I like.
25:48
If people don't like it, I'm like Yo, you're entitled I would want to If I care, I would want to know why you don't like it.
25:55
But I like what I like and I I stand on decisions I'm I make and I think then that spreads.
26:02
I don't know, maybe it's that's a bit different to what how people handle their careers in this day and age.
26:08
So, I don't know, but that's just me guessing.
26:09
I don't have a big landscape on whatever decision people are making. Of course.
26:14
Yeah, what does it feel like to see some of those like 9-year-old, 15-year-old dreams come true?
26:20
Like what does that feel like in reality?
26:23
Like what does that actually look like? Calm. Normal. I knew it. Um I know it.
26:31
Like if I Minute I get the idea, I'm like all right, cool. There. Boom.
26:34
That's when I get excited. All right, we on. Now let's work to it.
26:39
So, when you're working to it, you when you get there, it costs so much. You know? It costs so much.
26:46
If you want something that like you really want, the price is so high that you're just a bit like, "Ah, cool." Mhm.
26:54
You're not seeing it as for the sheen that you saw in the perspective at 15, at 9.
26:59
You're seeing it, all right, that cost me this, that cost me that. I had to wake up 4:00 a. m.
27:02
here, I had to do this night, that I had to grind here, I had to do this night, shoot, I had to do this night.
27:06
You're seeing the cost it takes.
27:08
You're feeling the cost it takes.
27:10
So, when you land and arrive All right, cool, there was turbulence. Mhm. Oh, you got it. I did? You just did. Yeah. what I'm saying?
27:18
And then and then but the excitement comes from like feeling like you can do it before you see all of it. If that makes sense.
27:23
Like the full kind of picture, cuz you're only seeing the good, that's why you go there.
27:30
But then it every like everything's balanced. That's all it is.
27:31
It's not like it's bad, it's just like it's everything. Yeah.
27:34
Yeah, I love I love that statement you just said, like you only see the good, that's why you go there.
27:41
And then when you go there, you see all of it, but you realize that all of it was part of getting you there.
27:44
It was never possible to get there without everything else.
27:48
Like it was never part of it you you're only seeing the good cuz like like entices you.
27:51
It's like what people say about sex, like how sex is like a way for your genes to keep going. Mhm.
27:57
Like it's a way It's like a create The body is created this organism to keep going, so then you have this pleasure out of it.
28:02
Or So, then it's like like it's kind of like, "Oh, you got Ah, yeah."
28:07
And then when you go in there, I'm not I'm not saying sex is bad. Like sex is great.
28:12
What are you going to You go You go in there full of it.
28:13
You go in there full of it.
28:16
I find that when you go on those journeys, yeah, there's something about the badness in it that you have to face in yourself.
28:21
And it's whether you take the lesson, and if you don't take that lesson you will meet it again. Mhm.
28:26
You will meet it again until it lets you go.
28:28
And then when you meet and accept it, sometimes you realize what I've realized that like, "Ah, I don't even want that good now." Mhm.
28:37
Part of it was me figuring out something in me that I didn't really know that I wanted to figure out. Mhm.
28:42
You know what I'm saying?
28:42
But like that was probably the majority of it. Mhm.
28:45
You know what I'm saying?
28:45
And the sex impulse tells you go there. Yeah.
28:49
Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, do that.
28:50
When did you get You said when you have an I'm going to do a little bad impersonation, but you like when you get the idea it's like boom.
28:56
So, where's the where's the Definitely from Wood Green.
29:00
Yeah, yeah, definitely from Wood Green.
29:01
Where's the When did you get the idea for the kitchen?
29:04
And like because I know that project's taken a long time to come to life, right?
29:07
It's like 8 years or something, right? Seven? Uh 10. 10, yeah, all right.
29:12
10 years I got the idea in a barber shop in Holloway.
29:15
I sit in the barber shop and then like these guys were talking about taking stuff, like these heists, a million pound heists and this is Danny Ocean and I were talking.
29:23
But they were talking about actually doing this.
29:25
Yeah, yeah, they were just chatting.
29:25
I'm like, these guys are talking.
29:26
And then like this I know it's something was on the TV and I was like, yeah, that's the that's us that's us. Let's do that.
29:32
And then I was like, right, that's it.
29:33
And then in that moment I was like, I'd love to see that film.
29:37
Of people like going into like diamond jewel stores and like robbing stuff.
29:39
I was like, I'd love to see that.
29:41
Just in the barber shop chilling cuz like my barber just kept on putting appointments before me even though I made an appointment.
29:47
So, I'll be sitting in there the whole half a day.
29:49
And then like so then I was like, oh, I'd love to see that.
29:53
And then like and then I never saw him again. Ever.
29:56
And I was like, what happened to him?
29:57
And he's like, yeah, he went.
30:00
And then like I was like I couldn't shake it.
30:03
I was like it was thrilling, but there was a cost.
30:08
And I was like I'm 22 in a barber shop.
30:12
Like I chill and I was like there's something about that.
30:13
Then I did a bit more research and I realized that like, oh, they're getting paid like they're paying they're stealing millions of pounds worth of diamonds, but they're getting paid 200 pound.
30:25
I was like something in that.
30:28
That says where we're at in this world and what's going on in London.
30:34
Where they don't even know the value of what they're robbing.
30:35
They think it's worth 200.
30:38
And they're willing to risk their life and their freedom for it.
30:41
I don't to what's what's going on there. And just kept digging.
30:44
So, I just look over there and then then I'm a like where I grew up like how we grew up like obviously do like the professional jobs like you do like Harry and Paul and the psycho villains and all of that.
30:53
But then I would have like a whole other career where we just make YouTube videos and we just kill with the people and just make stuff.
31:00
So, then there there was a time when like cuz I wrote on skins and stuff and there was a time when they were like oh everyone wanted to do meetings and talk about what my ideas were and I was like I don't I'm tired of these coffees, man.
31:08
Like And so then I was like all right and I got the team together um director and a producer and that that we's that we's building with and then like and then I was like all right let's just make it.
31:21
So, I asked my barber um he's in the film actually.
31:23
I know like yeah he's in the film.
31:25
He's in the film and then I asked him Is he a barber in the film?
31:27
No no no he's just in the film constantly. He's one of them.
31:30
He's one of the residents.
31:32
He's one of the main residents.
31:32
But this is why this is why so I went to the barber he he closed on Wednesdays.
31:35
So, I was like all right bro like like let's use your shop cuz I want basically it started as Reservoir Dogs in a barber shop. All right. Yeah.
31:44
So, then I was like all right like can we use your shop to shoot?
31:46
He said yeah of course of course of course of course.
31:49
Then I like paying people.
31:49
He said I have a free I was like no man like please.
31:52
And then he was like obviously didn't have a budget.
31:53
I think we like 200 pound each and we just shot something.
31:57
We got new actors in it so I didn't need a crew.
32:00
And then like and he was like don't cut me out of this.
32:03
Don't cut me out of this.
32:03
I was like no bro I got you.
32:04
He said no when it blows keep me in. I need to stay involved.
32:07
I was like no bro I got you I got you.
32:09
So, that's how it kind of started and then it evolved. Mhm.
32:12
It kept on evolving from then. Wow. I love that.
32:15
I love hearing how like ideas come about and I appreciate that you have that memory.
32:20
Did you actually sit down with people who'd done those heists or did you meet some people who'd actually gone through with it?
32:25
the guys I met the guy I met a couple guys that did stuff like that.
32:28
And it was just like I think I went there and it was like pretty it was pretty simple on the actual heist but it's like for me it was about the mentality. Mhm.
32:34
Which I knew I understood.
32:38
But it was like kind of being around the people and understanding just like hanging with them.
32:42
Hanging with them and the people that are like in the news and that's why I said I chilled with them.
32:48
And it was like this is that and the other, but they I think them kind of guys like they we understand each other cuz I kind of go into the industry like all right, listen, I'm just doing what I want.
32:58
Like I'm just going to go in there and I think that's how that's the energy that they have.
33:03
Um but yeah, no, they were they're interesting people.
33:04
Well, what did you learn about them?
33:06
Do you feel they were just they're just trying to survive or they're trying to or they're sold a dream or what's kind of motivating them to do that? I don't know.
33:14
I think they just they just do it cuz like it's just what part of the operation is what they do, is what they know, is their reality, is their it's that's what they know.
33:23
That's how they've chose to fight whether they've been the older brother or been the only boy in the family or whatever the reason is that they've gone down that path.
33:30
They did it and they have a level of intelligence that means they've been able to organize an operation.
33:35
And like talk to people and communicate and this and that and like I like they they're like but that's they're just doing that in this realm.
33:45
You know what I'm saying?
33:45
It's like I found I found how they think more interesting than what they do.
33:49
And that's what I wanted to explore in this.
33:53
It's like exposing the thought and the principles behind how they live and what their values are.
33:59
And why and how it's connected to and if they people are really true to it.
34:05
So basically like someone like Staples in the film, he doesn't do anything criminal to per se, yeah.
34:09
But it's like he has the mentality and the values.
34:12
Do you know what I'm saying?
34:14
It's like he's this guy he thinks the enemy isn't the other postcode or the other block. The enemy is the system.
34:22
And he engages with them how he how we would see a a kid like that engage with the other block. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the postcode.
34:30
He goes it's you lot And he just engages him like that.
34:35
But that's a powerful energy.
34:35
It's a powerful mentality. It's a leader. Yeah.
34:39
So, I kind of was just interested in that and how those people think and how that can be how can motor and an a kind of like a cultural identity. Mhm.
34:49
And I felt that kind of like London had that energy of like, "Bro, we do what we want."
34:52
Like, if you're really from there.
34:54
If you're really from there.
34:54
And I feel you have that energy, but you're just a monk in that. You know what I mean? You're like zen.
35:00
But you're like, "Hey, it's me."
35:00
But it's not really like but you're doing it for good things, but it's not I think London it's a I always felt London was a special city. Yeah, I do, too.
35:06
A very special city, but our sometimes our humility Mhm.
35:10
and the class ceiling, Mhm.
35:13
yeah, stops us from like doing what we want to do. Mhm.
35:20
Like people are like, "There's a glass ceiling."
35:22
And I'm like, "It's made of glass." You could break it.
35:27
Is that how like it's made of get something? Yeah. You know what I mean?
35:30
And I feel like what I was around was basically what I grew up around was that mentality. Mhm.
35:34
We're going to make it work.
35:36
We're going to make it happen.
35:36
And not in an arrogant way, we just cuz we want it to happen. Yeah. We just we mean it. It's sincerity. Mhm. You mean it.
35:43
Like we just want it to happen. Yeah.
35:45
And like I mean it's more than us.
35:45
And I feel like London and then I researched about London, about the Blitz and how the mentality of like um when London was bombed Mhm.
35:54
for the first time, how like people were scared and then after it they were like, "Oh, we survived." Yeah.
36:00
And how it built a resilience in the city. Mhm.
36:01
Like a kind of resilience that I feel like it's still here. Mhm.
36:06
Like because of the class system and that that keep calm, carry on mentality, we kind of squash it and like like a very like regional with how with our dreams. Mhm.
36:18
We think, "Oh, yeah, if we got this, then that's enough."
36:20
Because said person said that's all you can get. Mhm. Who is this person? That's how I feel. Who Who are you Mhm. to limit me?
36:31
That doesn't make sense to me. Yeah.
36:31
Do you think people are scared to dream or is it scared to or they're accepting a limit or what what how would you articulate the one of the big moments I had, one of the big breakthroughs I feel in a script was like I randomly like So like I did Black Mirror when I was 22.
36:47
4 years later I like it blew in America, yeah. Yeah, it's huge.
36:49
It's still I mean It's not It went nuts in America.
36:52
Netflix wasn't didn't wasn't a thing.
36:54
So I did that I did this TV show on the and then I did a thing that crossed over in America. So I was in New York.
37:01
And then like um it was years after I did it.
37:05
It was Mayweather Pacquiao fight around then.
37:07
So I I had a photo shoot.
37:07
So I stayed at a photo shoot and then I was like oh I've got to watch the fight here.
37:11
So I stayed in this flat in Bed-Stuy and I was chilling.
37:16
And then I was just a I was in New York. Like I was in New York.
37:18
Going to I went to the church, went to the brunch. I was going everywhere.
37:22
I was I was rolling with to the parties, went to everywhere.
37:26
And then I was like and I was I don't know I was walking around and there's a massive poster of Biggie in Brooklyn.
37:33
And I looked at it I was like they really loved themselves.
37:36
This is someone that's come from there and they've pushed that.
37:37
I don't think none of them would we wouldn't see our heroes of now on that pedestal on that platform.
37:44
We wouldn't see them as who they are majority of the time. I said huh. I came back home.
37:54
Now I used to like go Cali Pool.
37:56
But I used to run from my place to go Cali Pool.
37:57
I used to get a lot of things from my jogs. So I'd run there.
38:01
It's a 10-minute jog and I would look around I'm like it's the same demographic as New York.
38:06
Literally same demographic. What's the difference?
38:10
Why does New York feel like New York New York and then London feels And I was running running around I was like these guys don't believe in themselves.
38:18
I'm going to believe in myself.
38:20
And I think my career has shifted but also I think the I just feel I want that for London. Yeah. I want that. We're global.
38:26
We're playing world-class rent. Mhm.
38:27
I want world-class results from this city.
38:29
Do you know what I'm saying?
38:30
So, like, but for whatever reason we're just like, "All right, no, no, no."
38:34
It's like I just don't I don't believe in that. I don't believe in that.
38:38
And I feel like New York is just decided Mhm. with this.
38:43
And I think if London has decided with this, I think everything will flourish.
38:46
And I think a lot of it came from that.
38:48
If we're being honest about who we are as opposed to kind of hiding and kind of suppressing and kind of this keep calm Harry carry on sheen that we're pretending to be.
38:59
Where we're actually as a culture very quite cocky. Mhm.
39:00
Or sure about who we are what we stand for.
39:04
Even the fact that like when you grow up in London like you really still stay hanging out with your friends that you grew up with. Yeah.
39:10
Do you know what I'm saying?
39:11
It's like it's your because that's where it is.
39:13
You know what I'm saying?
39:14
And and um that's a level there's a level of conviction and values Mhm.
39:17
that I feel we're not honest about publicly.
39:19
And I want I want it more I want it more for London. Yeah, I love that, man.
39:24
I I relate to so much of that as someone who considers myself through and through London born and raised, university, school, everything.
39:31
All my best friends are here.
39:34
You know, and obviously I don't live here anymore, but when I'm back it's like to me yeah, London raised me and you have that kind of affinity to this city in such a special way.
39:43
But yeah, I I feel similar to you that I feel often people think if you if you dream bigger or you think beyond or you are pursuing the limitless, it's almost seen as less than.
39:56
It's seen as like, "No, no, no, don't don't try that.
39:59
Like that's that's not worth it. It's not worth it."
40:02
Or when we feel we have to present ourselves to others, we're like, "No, no, you shouldn't even have to do that.
40:08
You should It should just happen."
40:10
And it's like, "Well, no, sometimes it takes a bit of work and convincing and pushing the boundaries as you're saying as well."
40:15
And so I can relate to relate to all of that.
40:17
And and I feel the same way. I feel the same way.
40:19
London is fully global and London has so much incredible talent in all these different industries.
40:25
And I think it needs to be shared globally, too.
40:27
We don't need to stay just here.
40:29
Yeah, and I don't I don't think so.
40:31
I think I I think we've got a lot to say.
40:34
And we've got interesting perspective.
40:36
And I just want to I want more of it.
40:37
Like a lot of time I do things I was like, "Come on, then."
40:41
And I may mess it up, but at least I at least I went for it. At least I went for it.
40:46
And I and I believed in it.
40:46
And then hopefully someone after me refine it.
40:51
So then I can learn something. And I'll go for it.
40:52
Like do you know what I mean?
40:53
It's like that's the whole point. That's the whole point. Like just go for it. It's not about you. It's about your ideas.
41:01
What you can hear and what you can let through.
41:03
That's what this is, man. And so what you doing?
41:06
Like what are you listening to?
41:07
What radio station you listen to?
41:08
What ideas you letting out? That's how I see it. Yeah.
41:10
How do you get I'm intrigued I loved how you talked about how the idea for the kitchen formed.
41:16
How do you get curious and critique your own ideas?
41:21
Cuz I'm sure you have ideas popping at you all the time.
41:25
How do you kind of like filter it down to be like, "Oh, this is an idea that I really love."
41:30
versus "I'm going to park that.
41:32
I'm going to take that from here."
41:34
Like walk me through what's happening in your mind cuz I feel like when you do have a idea that you're sure of and you go, "Yeah, that's the one."
41:38
It seems so clear, but I'm guessing you have a million ideas before you get that.
41:43
It's it's it's it's clear when you know it's clear.
41:44
Yeah, that's what I mean.
41:46
I'm thinking that time in that before the true clarity, you can't it's like you just can't shake it off. Mhm.
41:54
You can't stop thinking about it.
41:54
You can't stop thinking about it.
41:56
You can't stop thinking about it. You keep going. You keep going. Keep going.
42:00
And then it goes, "Ah, I got I got to do it."
42:02
And what I really truly I have there's loads of ideas, but like but then I read like like I loads of ideas, but then like someone ends up doing it. Mhm.
42:10
Like do you know what I mean?
42:10
It's like and then you're like and I when someone ends up doing it, I get really happy.
42:15
You're like ah cool I don't have to do it. They did it.
42:19
Like I don't I don't I don't see it as mine.
42:20
It seems what I hear and what I can see.
42:23
Like I think No Gimmicks said in the interview one time like Desert Island Disc and that.
42:28
He said like they asked him about like I can't remember the war one of them songs he made.
42:32
They were like what's it like?
42:32
He said it's like fishing.
42:35
And you go in there by the shore and you're just waiting and you're waiting and you're just what?
42:38
You feel me or like or Michael Jackson described it one time where like he was saying how like he was writing He's writing a song and they were like oh Michael like go bed like you're tired. He's like I can't. He said Michael go bed. Like can't. Like why?
42:53
He was like I can't because if I go bed God will give the song to Prince.
42:57
And they like you like you get it.
42:57
Like it's not like it's not mine.
43:03
It's what my expertise, my hours, my perspective, my I may have an idea but I'm not the right um I haven't had the right upbringing to really actualize it.
43:13
Like it's all these factors that come to you letting it through.
43:18
Do you know what I'm saying?
43:20
So like I can see things like oh yeah that's a great idea but I'm like I'm not that's not I'm not sure if I'm able to give that.
43:28
So a lot of time when I act and that how I define it a lot of times is there's stuff I want to say and there's stuff I want to help people say.
43:33
Acting is me helping someone say something.
43:36
Because I'm like oh I really want to say that too but I haven't got time.
43:39
To like Do you know what I'm saying?
43:40
So I'm like ah cool I'll just I'll help you say it cuz I believe in you.
43:44
So like ah well this is like ah okay now stuff I realized oh I'm I am the one that is supposed to say this. I can say this.
43:50
And then you have to check yourself and go how much are you thinking about yourself?
43:54
How big is your mentality?
43:56
You like it could be limiting or like you mean is like there's a whole process.
43:59
It that's why it's taken me time but I think when I did Skins when I wrote on Skins I had a thing like well in my career that was like, all right, cool.
44:08
Do I want to be a great singer or do I want to sing great songs?
44:11
Yeah, and I think my career shifted where I was like, I want to sing great songs.
44:13
And then I realized in that process you become a great singer.
44:15
So, when Skins when you're inheriting characters, you're singing a great song, essentially.
44:20
And then I realized in this process I've had to learn how to make a song.
44:25
You know what I'm saying?
44:25
How do I have to create a character?
44:26
How do I have to create relationship design?
44:28
How do I have to create structure?
44:29
Like, you have to learn all that in order to get to the standard that I like.
44:35
You know what I'm saying?
44:35
Like, it's not you can release it.
44:39
But I wouldn't cuz I just I have a higher standard for myself and the stuff I like.
44:43
And I want me and my friends to like what I make or what I help someone make.
44:49
I I love what you said, man.
44:49
And it's so interesting like I'm when I'm listening to someone speak on the podcast, I'm always just trying to like sense that what energy kind of connects everything they're saying.
44:59
And every time you speak and every time the way you answer stuff is is counterintuitive in a good way because I hear peace and calm through all of it.
45:09
Like even for you to just say right now that when someone makes something that I had an idea about, you accept that with peace that oh, that's not my idea.
45:16
It wasn't meant to be mine.
45:19
Where a lot of us see someone make an idea come that we maybe one day had randomly and we're like, they did my idea.
45:24
Like, I wish, you know, I could have been the person or whatever.
45:26
We often feel a bit of competitiveness, comparison, and you have actually the opposite where it's a sense of peace and like, actually that's great for them. Good for them.
45:34
they made it cuz I want to see it. I want to see it.
45:36
Like, like I want to see it.
45:38
Like, and it's that it's the reality of like, oh yeah, to be to where like I'm the one to make the idea in that certain kind of level that costs a lot.
45:48
Like, so if someone does it and they weren't able to pay the price, I'm going to sit front row and be a fan of it.
45:51
Do you know what I'm saying?
45:53
And like, back then I'll buy the DVD.
45:54
Do you know what I'm saying?
45:55
I I would like I would support it cuz I'm just happy it exists.
45:59
I'm just happy I just want things to exist.
46:00
But I think the world that we kind of come into is really fake.
46:05
And then everyone just said, "This is this. This is that."
46:06
I'm like, "This is people decided that."
46:10
I just decided something different.
46:10
And I think other people just decide something different.
46:13
And and I love seeing people make decisions.
46:18
I know you I know you know this and I hope you know this. That is beautiful, man.
46:20
That That is That mindset is is like top notch. That's it.
46:22
That's another level of thinking.
46:24
Um I wouldn't see it that way. But I hear you. I accept that.
46:28
I'm learning how to say thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
46:31
I'm just saying it to you.
46:31
I I love that because I think if we could all live in that way where we could all be happy for what bringing things into existence. Yeah, man.
46:39
Whether it's brought by us or brought by others.
46:40
That's That's a beautiful state to live in.
46:42
To make something that doesn't exist to exist is incredible. Mhm. I think it's insane. Yeah.
46:48
So I used to I used to I used to have this mentality back in the day people used to go like I was like I don't know if I was not saying it or whatever.
46:52
But like but like be like if someone said, "Oh, you can't do this."
46:56
I'm like, "A man and a woman have sex, yeah? And they make a baby. That is so incredible." Mhm. It's insane.
47:08
It's the I don't know what I'm saying.
47:09
Like I just Like I just Don't you think that's the most insane That's really difficult to have Like it's really difficult.
47:14
For us it's it's a really difficult thing.
47:16
It's a difficult process.
47:17
It's all these other thousand guys that are trying to get in there too.
47:22
You're coming in like hey, I'm here.
47:24
Like I just I just It's I don't know.
47:24
I I It makes me I celebrate simple things.
47:30
Like I remember at at school I used to look up in the sky. I'm like I can't lie.
47:34
This interview is making me realize I was a special kid.
47:38
But I look at the sky and go, "Bro, like ain't it sick that planes can fly?" Yeah. But that is sick. "It's so heavy." Yeah. It's so heavy. There's so many people. There's so many bags. What's going on?
47:50
Like I would just go to this playground and be like "What's going on here? This is This is wild."
47:55
And I just was for I just used to just think that's one of the most amazing things ever.
47:58
Like, that's why I always wanted to fly on the Concorde and I never got round to it cuz it got done by the time I got there, but even though I fast you there was a faster one? Mhm. Wow.
48:06
Like, you know what I mean?
48:08
It's just like Yeah, to marvel at It's a wow because it's common it doesn't mean it's still not wow. Yeah, yeah.
48:13
And I think because there's a lot of it people then disregard it's specialness because there's a lot of it. Yeah. I just don't do that.
48:21
Yeah, really yeah we've lost that experience of awe and fascination when you have things that surprise you because everything around you is making the most difficult things look easy. Yeah.
48:30
Like, AI, VR, like I mean today you know you could go on and on.
48:33
Like, everything's becoming so accessible.
48:35
Yeah, and the ed out the ed out of this kitchen we we call it is land.
48:41
When you're staying in is Yeah, yeah.
48:42
this is what is like and then like so when you're in is land that is amazing cuz that a big metal box that has 300 people with like 800 kilos of luggage going from San Francisco to London is incredible. Mhm. That is amazing.
49:03
And I just kind of I always go I where am I? I'm in is land. Am I there? Am I there?
49:08
Because then you're in just perception land or whatever you think it is or whatever your past pain or whatever it is with this crap. Mhm. No crap is valid.
49:15
But like you should stay in that. Yeah. is It's powerful.
49:18
With your mindset and the amount of calm and peace there is in your life internally internally.
49:26
You're you're you're you're thinking like a monk honestly. I swear.
49:30
Yeah, because it's it's the mindset piece man. It's it's the mindset. I'm not guessing right.
49:33
It's the mindset piece like you know, when I asked you every question I've asked you the things that have come out of your mind your mouth peace and calm. And it's come naturally.
49:44
It's not like you're trying to be Zen.
49:46
Like, it's just coming out cuz that's where you're trying to live.
49:49
And so that's what it means like in the modern day where you know, we're not trying to live a particular monk life in that sense externally, but there's a sense of peace within.
50:00
There's a sense of calm within.
50:01
And I love seeing it in other people.
50:01
I always say, one of the other people I saw it in during an interview was Kobe Bryant.
50:07
Like, when I sat with him and I interviewed him, he had so much gravitas and so much calm and zen around him.
50:11
And he wasn't spewing like verses or trying to sound, you know, spiritual.
50:16
He wasn't He wasn't doing that.
50:18
Same way as you're not doing that.
50:19
But, it was a natural part of that about their presence. Yeah, I appreciate that.
50:23
a So, I I I I respect it.
50:23
I love seeing it in other people. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. I mean that.
50:29
Um, I want to dive into uh and I love I love this idea about what is and what isn't and what could have been, what should have been, what what would have been.
50:37
And a lot of us live in that what if.
50:39
If someone's listening right now, and they're listening to you, and I'm I'm I know this for a fact.
50:44
Anyone who's listened to you this far today, if you're still listening to the episode, which I know you are, I know that people are going to be moved.
50:51
I know people are going to be inspired.
50:52
I know there's a lot of people going to be going, "Oh my god, I didn't know he'd been through all of that."
50:56
And, you know, like skins and like just writing and the challenges and the stress, what would you like people to know about you that maybe you think they don't know or or understand about you that maybe you've never really been able to talk about or share or or express?
51:12
I don't know, cuz I'm not I don't I struggle with like my perception.
51:17
Like, I don't really cuz cuz a lot of the fame it's not like I chose to be this famous.
51:25
It kind of came as a product of the work, and it was a surprise product.
51:28
Like, I did a film and then a year later I was at the Oscars.
51:30
I mean, so it was like it was like, "Whoa."
51:35
Um, I'm not really I think I get the vibe where I'm like, "People don't get me in America, anyway."
51:40
And then in England, I think people do get me.
51:43
But, they still cuz they get me, they go they don't understand how I've done it.
51:47
Um I don't I'm not really I'll keep it real I've learned how to not be as invested in how people perceive me. Mhm.
51:54
But I just not invested in it cuz then you're consistently Yeah, I mean it.
52:01
Like that curated like I've been there.
52:03
It's not I'm not sitting there like I'm more holier than thou.
52:05
Like I've been there I've been in it trying to trying to look a certain way. You know what I mean?
52:09
Like I I was just like well was I happy or not?
52:13
So like I don't know about if I from you if you want to go and ask questions and that I'll be open to you and I'll I'll be able to elaborate. I would love to.
52:22
Do you know what I'm saying?
52:23
But for me I don't go like cuz every if I really engage with people mentally I could not get to where I've got to. Yeah. Yeah.
52:29
You could not get to where I've got to.
52:31
So as a lot of that that a lot of that is in that.
52:35
Of that kind of being so like That's what I think.
52:38
Do you know what I'm saying? But I'm open. No. No. No. as well.
52:43
Do you know what I'm saying? No. No. No.
52:44
I I hear what you're saying and and I don't I don't uh you know, I think that it's it's tricky because you're right that you can either get so lost in cultivating and crafting and curating how you're perceived and then still people won't perceive you that way even if you do all of that. Yeah.
53:01
Or you can kind of let it go and and it kind of flows in its own direction and then you've made peace with that which which I think is probably the healthier option because at least you can live and breathe.
53:11
I'll give you an example, right?
53:11
So I was I'm in my life I didn't really but I can't came in this game like I didn't know watch films.
53:16
I watched like Batman and Robin.
53:17
I said I'm not really I'm just living life.
53:19
Do you know what I'm saying? I'm a kid. about Val Kilmer? Yeah. Yeah.
53:20
They took him like they took him to George Clooney.
53:22
Do you know what I'm saying?
53:24
You looking like that like just I'm watching life like films that come out. You know what I mean?
53:28
So when I got into the industry it was like talking about this art house from this art house from this this this this that and the other.
53:33
And I remember HMV had this deal where you can black buy £1 £2 films.
53:38
So I'll just buy loads of films and I would just watch all the people that people spoke about that.
53:43
Like the legends like Mel Street, Daniel Day Lewis, like Shane Meadows, Paddy Considine, like all these people that people were like around that time around 07 that people just obsessed about.
53:55
But what time I'm watching and then I would go, "Oh, like all right, cool.
53:56
I watch the acting performances.
53:57
All right, okay, that's you're clearly really good at what you do. But so what? Like what for? You know what I mean?
54:08
And I realized I cared more about that than how great you were at something that was aimless or purposeless.
54:17
Then I realized great didn't mean anything.
54:21
Being really great at your job, being really good didn't mean It didn't mean it It had no emotion to it.
54:24
So I said to myself, "This is really great."
54:28
And then I obviously I'd watch all those That's those films and I went for that.
54:34
And then And what happens when you go for that is a bit of a prison.
54:35
Then you watch your work back and you're just critiquing yourself. You're not enjoying it.
54:40
You're just critiquing, critiquing in your head in your head in your head in your head.
54:45
Then I had to go, "Yo, I can't keep doing this.
54:46
I can't Every time I do a job just kind of Cuz I'm always I always used to be like improv like Think about the whole week.
54:53
I'll do an improv and the whole week I should have done this. I should have done that.
54:55
I should have done this this All right, next week I'm going to do this.
54:59
And then And I was like, "This isn't This isn't enjoyable."
55:01
And then I got to a place where I was like, "Oh, don't try and be good. Try and be honest."
55:08
Like What I say truth is what happened.
55:11
Honestly is how you feel about what happened.
55:13
So that's how I felt like I was just like, "Yo, like this is how I feel.
55:16
This is how I feel like."
55:18
A minute I go for something that's honest I'll do a something at work and then a year later you watch it back and it's you in a completely different space that you was a year ago and you wouldn't have done it that way.
55:29
But I just go That's how I felt. Mhm.
55:32
That's the honesty at that point. That's how I felt. That's where I was at. If I can't it's not now.
55:35
Time is as important as you.
55:40
Like it's not like the time is there.
55:43
The time like the time where you was at got you there.
55:47
Yeah, I know a lot of jobs it's like I'm the best person for the job after the job. Mhm.
55:52
You know what I'm saying?
55:52
It's like and you have to make peace.
55:55
Cuz the amount you grew cuz you learned how to do it.
55:56
And now you go, "Ah, if you give me now and you it's it's like a annoying thing to be in.
56:02
So, but it's like you have to go like that's how I felt. I was honest.
56:07
If I was honest, I can always walk away and go put my head up like that's how I felt. Yeah.
56:10
And so, that's what I go for like in terms of everything.
56:13
I go, "Yo, that's where I'm at, man. That's how I feel, man.
56:16
That's like it's And then I yeah and then if I say something different 4 years later like, "Oh, you know what?" Yeah, I grew in it.
56:20
Cuz it's not it's like it's like I went through something and then my mentality and my something shifted. I changed my mind.
56:28
So, it's not it's not like That's that's how really what I engage with now is just going, "Yo, like any other like micromanagement of my my perception Ah, I'm too meticulous Mhm.
56:40
for me to really go in that lane.
56:44
Cuz then I will really micromanage it.
56:46
So, then I was like, "Well, what's Just be real."
56:47
And then and people that get it will get it.
56:51
People that don't, that's what they're supposed to do. You know what I mean? Yeah.
56:54
I I I mean I'm glad I asked that question cuz I love where you took it and I think what I'm intrigued by by what you said is what is what are the projects that you're now and I don't mean specifics.
57:05
Like I don't need you to name stuff that you're working on, but what is it that you want your work to mean today as you are writing, as you're producing, as you're now in charge of the story?
57:15
Obviously, you've been selective over roles you've played, but I mean now that you're telling your own stories, writing your own stories, producing them, which you've been doing since day one, but now doing it at this level, what do you want it to mean?
57:26
What do you want people to feel?
57:27
What are the things you'd like people to it to be failure.
57:30
I don't think I can it, yeah?
57:32
Because that will rob them from their experience, right?
57:36
But what I want people to feel about the stuff I make, what I write, and produce, and direct, and anything I do in my life, yeah?
57:44
Is the goal someone to take it in, call their friend and go, "Hey, you seen this? This is mad."
57:53
Like and then and then and they get points from their friend because they have shared something Yeah.
58:02
that You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
58:04
You know what I'm saying?
58:05
It's like you know there's a song that's amazing and you're like, "This is mad." Yeah.
58:07
And then now forever You're going to rate that Like you're going, "Oh, I introduced you to that."
58:13
You know what I'm saying?
58:13
Like you feel like, yeah, like I got it like I want my work to feel like that.
58:18
I want it to feel to share it to There's an excitement.
58:22
There's like There's a crackle to it.
58:23
Like I want there to be like I want it to be shareable cuz I do think sometimes a lot of work is there's some stuff to share and there's stuff you don't. Yeah.
58:30
It could be as good as great as you want.
58:32
There's stuff that you want to share and stuff you don't want to share.
58:34
There's a lot of depressing stuff I do not want to share, but they are excellent. It's incredible. But you just have Yeah.
58:42
You know what I'm saying?
58:42
And you take it what you take into for whatever reason.
58:44
And I do love the fact that people go, "Yo, this is This makes me feel something.
58:48
This makes me This makes me want to move." You know what it is? You know what it is?
58:51
I want to make music that makes people want to dance. Mhm.
58:54
And how I What I mean by that is like kind of like you can't intellectualize why someone dances. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
59:00
You know what I'm saying?
59:00
It's just they do, they move. Mhm.
59:02
You know what I'm saying?
59:02
And I want to just move people.
59:03
Move people to go, "I'm going to do that." Or I want to do this.
59:07
Or like I want to share this.
59:08
I want to I want to There's something that comes after it.
59:13
That means you've That's bigger than any adjective. Mhm.
59:17
You know what I'm saying?
59:17
Cuz a lot of times a lot of people's feelings are just adjectives.
59:21
The stuff that you say on Twitter. Mhm.
59:23
They're not stuff that's what you're actually feeling. Mhm.
59:26
So that's that's where That's where I'm at really. Great answer, man. Great answer.
59:28
I The reason why I love that is when I start when I first made my first ever video and people said, "Why did you make it?"
59:34
I said, "Cuz I wanted someone to send it to their friend and say, 'That's what we were talking about.'" Yeah, that's that's me.
59:39
Like, "That's what we were talking about."
59:40
And I didn't know how to We didn't know how to But that that video helped explain Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
59:43
what I was going through.
59:45
But Daniel, you've been amazing. I've got a final five.
59:46
We do this with every guest.
59:48
These final five have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. Yeah. Yeah.
59:52
So, Daniel, these are your final five.
59:54
The first question is, "What is the best advice you've ever heard, received, or given?"
1:00:00
I've got one professionally, but I've got one personally.
1:00:01
I used to reject it as a kid this advice, but now I'm older I get the more I'm realizing how much is my mom is always saying everything matters. Mhm.
1:00:11
Everything every little matters.
1:00:13
And I would let I wouldn't focus on details.
1:00:18
I wouldn't focus on details.
1:00:18
And then now I'm older I'm realizing the detail isn't about the detail.
1:00:22
This is about what it says about you. Mhm.
1:00:23
And how easily you can show up on everything else if you just practice simple details.
1:00:30
And she goes, "Everything little matters."
1:00:30
She says, "Everything little matters." I mean that. I love that. That's great, man.
1:00:34
We've never had that and I fully agree.
1:00:35
All right, question number two.
1:00:37
What is the worst advice you've ever heard, received, or given?
1:00:41
I can't remember specific, but I can remember how it made me feel and how I reacted to it in my head when they said it.
1:00:48
When they Basically it was just saying, "Accept less." Mhm.
1:00:52
Basically what the principle was.
1:00:52
And I think I just erase it when people say that.
1:00:57
Like, "Oh, you know you're not supposed to like, you know, this or that person deserve" Basically they're basing that person deserves more. Mhm.
1:01:01
I think everyone deserves more. Mhm. I love that. Do you know what I mean?
1:01:07
It's not like I just believe So, if you decide that you want more then you can get it.
1:01:10
If you don't, then you chill. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
1:01:11
It's not like and I feel like when people are communicating subconsciously communicating a hierarchy Mhm.
1:01:17
that they win out of that doesn't benefit me.
1:01:23
I was going to chat in rubbish.
1:01:23
But like I can't it's that is I think it's acceptless. Mhm. Love that.
1:01:28
All right, question number three.
1:01:31
What's the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do when you go to bed? I pray. Mhm. What's the prayer? Just thanks. Thanks.
1:01:41
I really I got into that.
1:01:43
I used to be with my mom as a kid.
1:01:45
She made me read the Bible every night.
1:01:48
She used to read the proverb of the day.
1:01:50
You know they got like 31 chapters in there.
1:01:52
I used to read it as a kid.
1:01:54
And then like I don't know I got into a place I was just like nah man.
1:01:56
There was one time I had to audition and I really wanted this audition and I weren't really on that.
1:02:02
And then I really wanted this audition. I just prayed. Who am I chatting to? What is going on here? Like I was in New York.
1:02:11
I remember I really wanted it.
1:02:13
I was like why did I feel to do that?
1:02:16
And I just ignored it and just kind of carried on with my life.
1:02:17
It was like 2016 2017 I was like And then like I think I got into a place and I was like you know what it makes me just stay Mhm. Yeah man. Thanks. Focus on what I thank.
1:02:29
And like what I'm grateful for. Mhm. And then like humility.
1:02:35
Cuz my ego can get wild sometimes so teaches me how to just chill.
1:02:37
And then and listen to myself. Yeah. I think God's in you.
1:02:42
I don't think it's God's above you. It's not big brother. Mhm. Like in 84. Mhm. I love that.
1:02:45
I'm going to take that as question four cuz that's followed up fifth and final question.
1:02:52
Uh if you could create one law in the world that everyone had to follow, what would it be?
1:02:57
If you have been proven in one way shape or form to hate someone or group of people your punishment is to live with them for a year. Mhm. Anyone.
1:03:11
Even like Twitter hate anything. Go on then.
1:03:14
You do your That's like 9-5 or whatever, boom, boom, boom.
1:03:19
You go live with them for a year. And it's being there.
1:03:24
I think that's just off top.
1:03:24
I don't really like Yeah, that's a great answer, man. Yeah, I like that a lot.
1:03:28
Yeah, that's that's that's what that is.
1:03:31
I like that you went there. It's a great answer. It's dope. Yeah, appreciate it. I know. Appreciate you, man. My guy. Thank you, man.
1:03:37
If you loved this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion.
1:03:48
My fears are only going to continue to show me what I'm capable of.
1:03:54
The more that I face my fears, the more that I feel I'm gaining strength, I'm gaining wisdom, and I just want to keep doing that.