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I think lots of men, young men are looking for a role model.
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>> I have my colleague Ed William, who has written an incredible book on an incredible person, David Rooney.
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>> It reads like fiction, but it's true.
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The book starts with his father turning up from a funeral back home.
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His dad sort of crouches down and says to David, "I'm going, you need to be the man of the house." David was 5 years old.
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Lot of the book is the psychological impact that one phrase like that could have on David's entire life.
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He goes on to achieve some incredible things.
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He plays two division one sports at the Naval Academy.
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He becomes a cryptologologist. He becomes a surgeon.
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What makes him far more interesting as a character despite all these amazing things he's achieved is that he's not a superhero.
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He's not perfect and actually he up like a lot and actually but what's interesting about him is that he just does it anyway.
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>> What's David really like? What's his essence? >> Relentless.
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Relentless in everything. Yeah. Relentlessly ambitious.
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Relentlessly determined to provide for his family.
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Relentlessly determined to succeed. >> Well, hello everyone.
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It's Jim Oanessy with yet another Infinite Loops.
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Today is very special for me because I have my colleague Ed William who has written an incredible book on an incredible person, David Rooney. >> Ed, welcome. >> Thank you. Good to be here.
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>> So, let's start at the beginning.
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Uh, we wanted to figure out how NFT works.
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NFTTS worked >> back when they were all the rage and so like normal I said well let's do one and so that way we can learn about it and crazy story I'll leave that aside the winning bidder though had the opportunity to either come on Infinite
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Loops as a guest co-host or nominate someone else he chose to nominate David Ron I had never heard of David And after the podcast, I literally when we stopped recording, I said, "Will you let me make a movie about you?" >> And he kind of looked at me like,
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>> And he kind of looked at me like, "You're a weirdo." >> Good question. Yeah.
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>> It it ultimately turned into a book.
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And I think we made a much better choice making it a book.
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But let's start at the beginning. >> Yep.
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>> Uh tell me about how you approached the project.
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Uh David is a friend of mine and >> he he he can be um uh critical.
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Uh if he doesn't like something, he will tell you. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> And spoiler alert, he loved the book.
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But please take me from the start all the way through. >> Yeah, sure.
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So the way I came into the project was um you you emailed me said do you want to write a book and I said yes what's the book and then we'll deal with the the after effects after you you introduced me to David and I I was actually in Thailand when I first met him traveling with my wife and it was about 4:00 in the morning my time and we had the call and I just thought I just need to earn this guy's trust. That was my main thing.
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had the call and so I was thought it went okay.
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Um and we agreed that I'd fly over and interview him for five days.
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Um he'd tell his story front to back.
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He'd give me a long list of people from his life who I'd speak to.
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Uh so that's what we did.
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So I went out and I met him and um that seemed to go pretty well and then I just started writing and then here we are.
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So, one thing about David that I love is that list he gave you included people who don't like David.
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>> Did that surprise you?
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>> Um, it it didn't because you had told me that that's the type of person David is.
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And I didn't get the list till after I'd spoken with him.
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And actually the I remember before I went I was you know I was very nervous.
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My background the listeners probably don't know is I was a lawyer before.
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Um, I'd started writing online, which is how we we found each other.
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>> Um, and so I'd never done a a big interview project before.
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I had never done a book before. It was my first book.
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So I was so nervous and I was sort of planning on I sort of thinking of okay, the first half day, I had five days of interviews.
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I was like, the first half day I'll just softball questions, get to know each other, won't go into any of the harrowing stuff from his early childhood when, you know, we'll just do it nice and easy so we can sort of get to know each other.
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So I I can't actually remember what the first question I asked was, but within seconds he was telling me about his father leaving him, the gun violence he experienced as a child, the he gave this long incredible he basically gave his life story in half an hour with all the all the nasty bits.
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So at that point I realized, well, okay, this guy's pretty honest and pretty candid.
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So then when the list eventually came, I wasn't surprised that it involved >> and and go into it a little bit because that's what made me want to make a movie about him.
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I found >> what he overcame in his life to be incredibly inspirational. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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So David was born he was born in Hawaii.
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Um he was he moved to the West Coast and he his first five years were fairly normal.
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I mean he can remember very little of them.
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Um his father uh then one day the book starts with his father um turning up from a a funeral back home.
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David runs outside is excited to see his dad and his dad goes inside. David follows him.
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His dad and his mom, he can hear them shouting at each other, clothes flying out the window.
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Um and then his dad sort of crouches down and says to David, "I'm going.
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you need to be the man of the house.
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And >> and how old was he?
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>> David was 5 years old. Yeah. Yeah.
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Tell him you need to be the man of the house.
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Which and a lot of the book is the psychological impact that one phrase like that can have on David's entire life.
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I mean, that's very much the framing his quest to be the man of the house is very much the sort of framing device of the book.
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Um, so they were in Compton at the time staying with David's granny, um, his mom, Dorothy's mom.
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And what what what I actually found really interesting was that the this is Compton in the '9s.
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Um, you know, the chapters go into the book in more detail.
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We can talk about different anecdotes if you want, but you know, a lot of crazy stuff happens, but actually for for a while it's sort of David has really happy memories of this period because there's all these colorful characters in the house.
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you know, there's his uncle Rob, who was, you know, an incredible character.
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Um, was up to some less savory shenanigans, joined the Rod Rodney King riots.
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David remembers, um, first David went out himself uh, and saw an ear lying on the street and was, I shouldn't be here. So, went back home.
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His mom says, no, D, sorry.
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David is watching a TV reporter with some looting going on.
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And then David's like, I know this guy coming out of that coming out of that shop.
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And it's his uncle Rob carrying a TV coming out of a shop.
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He says, "Mom, look at this."
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So anyway, so but he's sort of he's got quite fond memories of this period even though there were some dark sides as well.
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Um then they uh David's mom suffered from really uh severe bipolar disorder.
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Um she has ups and downs.
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They leave they leave Compton which is very much sort of uh you know the the where things really start going wrong.
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Um and they leave Compton, they go to Oakland, one thing leads to another and I mean we can get into what whatever part you want to get into but that you know there's homelessness, there's as I say there's gun violence, there's David having to care for his mother.
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It it it it goes dramatically wrong.
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I mean they live in a Brookswagen Jetta um before going to a homeless shelter.
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Um yeah, >> one of the things that David told me which really did strike me was he reframed he told me as it was as you've just described but he said I choose to look at it as I was lucky to be living in a car in California and not New York.
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He said because New York I we would have had no heating and we would have gotten frozen out.
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>> One of the things about his attitude which really impresses me is >> it almost seems like you can throw anything at David. Yeah.
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>> And he will figure a way out to either fix it or make it better or take advantage of it. Mh.
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>> How much of that did you see both in David and the people you talked to about David? >> Yeah. Yeah.
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He's he's resilient and actually this was one of the things so you know when you first pitched me the project it was just this incredible ragster richer story of someone born into horrible circumstances who achieves loads of incredible things.
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So again we should say for the for the listeners you know David has this horrible childhood but it's not just misery poor and he goes on to achieve some incredible things.
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He plays two division one sports at the Naval Academy.
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He becomes a cryptologist. He becomes a surgeon.
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I mean amazing amazing life.
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Um so that was sort of the hook that got me into the story.
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But actually what makes him far more interesting as a character despite all these amazing things he's achieved is that he's not a superhero. He's not perfect.
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And actually he [ __ ] up like a lot as we all do. He does things wrong. He he acts rashly. He has self-doubt.
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He he worries that he's in the wrong place.
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He worries that he doesn't belong.
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And actually, but what's interesting about him is that he he he just does it anyway.
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Um and I think you I think you've had a similar experiences with him when you've been socializing with him where you've noticed he's not wanting to go to certain events and has gone anyway.
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And yeah, that that's part of that's part of who he is. >> Yes.
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Uh, I took David to some events where I had him stay at my home >> and he was normal, what I call normal David. >> Yeah.
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>> Uh, he saw my my Mac studio and he's like, can I make some videos on this because I'm doing this video series and I'm like, sure.
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>> And he we told great stories.
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But then when we flew to the event on the plane, he expressed he's like, he just looked at me and he goes, "You know, I'm nervous as hell to do this." And I'm like, "Why?"
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>> And it was, and he went into it, he was like, "Man, like where I'm coming from and where you're taking me are virtually two different worlds."
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>> And then of course at the end of the event, >> who is everyone crowding around? >> David. Yeah. Yeah.
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>> Did you see more of that as you were writing the book and the way other people interacted with David? >> Yeah.
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So obviously I spoke to not so much other people interacted with David just because I I I I spoke to David mainly oneonone or with the team but I spoke to a lot of people from David's life all the way from high school teachers um uh basketball coaches friends of the Naval Academy people he worked with mentors school friends his next door neighbor all kinds of things and they all would sort of been sucked into the story of David.
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You know, they they they were so excited that a book was being written about him.
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They were so uh just delighted just delighted delighted about it. Um yeah.
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>> What were some of the funnier or unexpected stories that you heard? >> Unex.
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>> Unex. So, I I wouldn't say this is one of the funnier ones, but I actually there was a chapter towards we can get into the style of the bit maybe in a bit because it's very it's quite fast-paced, fastpaced, fast-paced for various reasons, but the he had mentioned that when he leaves the naval academy um before he then goes on to become a cryptologologist, um at that point he thought he was going
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to go into the submarine program and he he he'd mentioned very briefly that he wants to that he he he was sort of feeling a bit burnt out and his his best friend, a guy called RL, who features in the book, who I spoke to, um, lived down in Houston and he'd mentioned that he stayed there for a little bit um, to just sort of rest before he goes back into it, which in itself is quite unusual for David. He's not he's not a
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He's not he's not a man to rest, >> right?
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>> Um, anyway, I spoke to I sort I sort of so I was planning on mentioning it in a paragraph of that just to sort of, you know, move the narrative on.
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And I spoke to David a bit more about it. I spoke to RL.
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I spoke to RL's older brother um who's a sort of a basketball legend at the academy and I spoke to um RL's mom Mrs.
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Lewis who David had spoken really highly of who was the warmest uh warmest so full of text and charm and just it was the most de I I left the call and said to my wife straight after that that was the most delightful woman I've spoken to in my life she was just so charming.
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Um but anyway and they all talked about this period when David was living there as like incredibly meaningful to them and David also sort of talked about it as incredibly meaningful for him and not much actually happens from a story perspective.
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Um but the more I talked to them about it the more it sort of felt important to the story somehow even though plotwise it isn't.
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Um, and actually sort of became my one of my favorite chapters of the book.
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And it's David David resting for once, which just doesn't happen.
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It's about it's about the halfway mark of the book, David resting, and the chapter slows down a little bit.
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And there's lots of really interesting parallels with his there's lots of parallels with his childhood growing up in Compton.
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The the connection with family he feels there, and it's really slightly similar, but also really different.
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Um, and he sort of I don't know, have you ever seen the film Into the Wild? >> Yeah. Yeah.
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So, I'm a big film guy, so I couldn't help but the whole through the way through the book, different films are popping into my head.
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And the there's this bit where he the submarine program doesn't doesn't go through.
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He gets some bad news, which is sort of a recurring theme of the book.
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And he just thinks for a second, I could I could stay here.
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I I I I've I've got family around me as found family but family around me.
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I could just rest barbecues and ball games.
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Like he could just take the foot off the gas on a longerterm basis.
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And then he just feels like no, I need to achieve something.
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I need to achieve I need to do something.
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Like I've got some greatness in me, some fire in me.
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And he and he and he leaves.
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And I and that was such an interesting scene.
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And it just it made me thinking as well made me think of well going back to Into the World.
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to Into the World. There's this there's this scene in it which I still think it's so sad of the old man I can't remember the actor who plays him um who the main character finds and they form this really close relationship and then the main character he has to go I I
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can't remember his name but he has to go back into the wild and the old man says why don't you I could adopt you I could be my grandson and he says no I need to go back out there and then the camera sort of lingers on this old man and there's sort of a scene at the end where David is leaving and you know Mrs. is
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is Louis who he's so close with is this lovely woman and she's so happy for him that she's going but they've all she said to me like I consider David my I consider David my son like our life was so much richer with him there and I just thought it was such a and this came out of a a paragraph that I wasn't even meaning to write and it became such an interesting chapter in the book and such an interesting part of his story.
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>> Yeah, he is such an interesting contrast in uh personality traits, right?
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He is very very ambitious. >> He's very talented.
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>> Uh you mentioned he was in cryptography and he solved some big cases. No PhD, >> right?
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And so the PhD guys were all like who is this guy and why should we listen to him at all? >> Yeah.
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But the other thing about David that has been a constant through my relationship with him is his just veneration of and love and need of family.
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>> Talk a little bit about that.
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His relationship with his mom. Yeah.
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>> Which was challenging.
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>> Um his goals because they his mother featured very prominently in why he wanted to achieve. >> Yeah.
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A and again to go back to how I thought it was a a sort of conventional is the wrong was not a conventional story at all but a rags to rich's story you know that that was what originally got me into it and and another thing that then deepened it and made me far more interested on a character level was his relationship with his mom which is so interesting.
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So, so she raises him and his brother Jonathan alone because his father leaves.
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She has, as I said, severe bipolar.
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And, you know, their childhood is moments of shocking dereliction effectively of of of her duty as a mother, but also moments of like immense love and immense care.
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Um I mean on two multiple occasions um there are guns pointed at David or members of the family and she steps in between them and says this isn't happening.
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Um, you know, when David goes to the I need to be careful I'm not giving away too much of the book here, but there is a lot more. There is a lot more.
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But when David goes to the he sort of has some big fear when he goes to the Naval Academy that he's leaving her behind and she's been she she's been going through a really severe she has not been with them for a year in mind.
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She she's been with them in body, but they've been caring for her.
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And he's so fearful of leaving her.
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Um, and he sort of sits her down and says, "Do you understand what's happening?
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I'm I'm going I'm going I'm going to I'm going to Annapolis.
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I'm not going to be here.
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And she's she sort of says, "Son, you're fine. You go."
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And like that that was it.
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But it was sort of the So she I just think it's such an interesting relationship where >> it's not as simple as she was a bad mom, she was a good mom. She she's a human.
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It's a human complicated relationship which is just so much from my perspective as a biographer from a subject like so much more of an interesting angle.
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And then I think the question that that then tied in, sorry I'm rambling.
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I'm not sure this related to your original question, but it's interesting.
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Anyway, so the the the question that I found really interesting through the book was that what David was wrestling with was his he knows that the best way he can save her, he could be the man of the house, he can provide for her is by leaving and making something of himself.
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by whether it's becoming a basketball player, which were his early hopes, or becoming a surgeon, which is his ultimate ultimate hopes.
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Um, and he knows in his heart that that is he can't help her there.
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But then there's also the guilt of is it is the best way to help her by by leaving her behind and am I doing this for her or for me?
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And again, they're really like naughty human questions that I found so interesting to write about and so right for sort of unpacking in the book.
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>> And another thing about David that I find interesting and it relates back to the people all gathered around him at the end of the of the event, >> he he uh one of the titles we considered for the book was born to fit out.
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>> Um and that was one of his lines to me. Mhm.
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>> He was like, I I always felt like I was born to fit out, but then I worried, how will I ever fit in?
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>> And I guess he chose the way of fitting in by just excelling.
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And I I've never really met anyone who does the kind of deep dive on a subject, any subject, >> yeah, >> like David.
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So, let's bring in his basketball coach because that was a very important relationship. >> Yeah, coach.
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>> Um, but uh it was not always a smooth relationship. >> Yes. Well, yes.
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He >> David's another theme in the book is, you know, he he has a father-shaped absence in his life. >> Yeah.
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>> Um and he finds different men, boys to fit it at different times of his life.
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And sometimes they're the right fit, sometimes they aren't.
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They're not I mean, you know, his his mom has um a sequence of boyfriends, two particularly feature in the book, who um are not good to David, who's not good to his mom.
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Um but one of them has a son, a guy called Darren, who features in the book, who um he'd been in juvie.
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He he he he personally was up to no good.
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But he really took David under his wing and said, "David, I don't want you to do what I'm doing.
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I I I want better for you."
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Um anyway, so yeah, so David then meets Coach Slagki at the Naval Academy prep school.
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Uh Dave Sladkkey, he died in 2016, I think.
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Um he's and he David finds the father he was looking for.
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He he and I spoke to I couldn't speak to him. He's passed away.
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I spoke to his son Matt who said that how highly his dad spoke of David and they um as well as he he he came he came from a certain model of basketball training that saw he was serious on the sort of X's and O's of basketball but he saw it as life coaching basically as a proxy for life coaching and he was a huge stickler with for cleanliness.
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He made all his boys like turn their socks inside out before they clean clean them.
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uh what you know to what skin products to use in order to all all these sort of things and he was teaching these boys to become men.
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Uh and that's sort of what David found.
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and that's sort of what David found. Um he also actually so David again this is a a fun little bit which I related to I think we all I think everyone has no matter how you've grown up the first time you get money uh you you spend it
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you know and and I and and and I did that obviously for David it was times a thousand he'd grown up with zero money at all and then suddenly when he when when he's in the naval academy he's getting a stipend so his I mean he just goes crazy with his first with his first um with his first paycheck. and racks up
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and racks up credit card after credit card after credit card and all crap that he doesn't need basically, >> right?
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>> And then coach Vladkkey was a finance nerd basically and he grills in David, you know, one of the reasons David's most known today is as a sort of financial sort of guru on social media. >> Yeah.
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>> And it's coach Sladkkey who sort of grilled that drilled that into him in the first place because he said, "I'm cutting off your credit cards.
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I'm redirecting 50% of your um of your paycheck to this IRA I set up. Um yeah.
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Uh he then has another coach after who they have a more uh confrontational relationship.
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Um at division one basketball which you know David is beset with injuries um and it doesn't end the way he wanted it to end. >> Yeah.
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And let's talk about that for a minute, too, because David went from becoming the man of the house at five, >> living in cars, >> Yes.
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>> taking care of his, uh, bipolar mother, >> uh, and then he gets into anapapolis, >> talk a bit about >> Yeah. Fish out of water.
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H >> how But also, how did that happen? >> Oh, I see. Yeah.
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And then the what what it felt like for David when he shows up at Annapolis because he he told me a >> David swears a lot. >> Yeah.
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And on that I I looked up just before this call I looked up uh the I looked at my notes from the original my original interviews with David. >> Yeah.
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>> Uh the word [ __ ] came, 1445 times. >> Yes. >> Yeah. So yeah.
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And so, uh, in the exploitative fil story, which was amazing, he tells me about when he first got to Annapapolis, and I'm sure he told you the same story, but I'm going to let you tell it.
24:45
>> Well, the so to go back to the first question about the how he how he got to anapapolis.
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Um, so they there there was a moment after after they've been homeless where um a figure from David's childhood comes back into his life and brings some trouble with him.
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And that's when the shotgun incident I mentioned when Dorothy steps between David and the shotgun happens.
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And at this point, David is I can't remember, but he's he's he's not 5 years old anymore. He's 10, 11, 12.
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Um, and he realizes I need to I need to get it.
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It's not going to happen to me.
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I need to get us out of the situation.
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And he starts latching on to anything he can as a way to get out.
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So, first he finds art um and he he has a cousin who draws pictures of Tupac and the Lion King and Biggie or whatever.
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Um, and he sort of becomes obsessed with painting.
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And with David, everything's instrumental.
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So, like it's not just a love of painting.
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He's going to become an artist so he can pay for his family.
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He can buy his granny a house.
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He can buy his mom a house.
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>> Um, that doesn't work out.
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>> He, >> Although, let me interject.
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He is a very good, >> very talented artist. He is. Yeah, he is.
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It's um >> Maybe if he kept it going, that's what he'd be doing.
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you know, if if it was >> I I would not put it past him. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, he's very talented.
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And actually, the reason that that doesn't go well is cuz they they move again.
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Um another boyfriend, another move, and they lose all their stuff.
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He loses all his supplies.
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Um any so he's latching on to various things to try and find his sort of ticket out of there.
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desperately, you know, he's flailing around and he stumbles across across basketball.
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Um, and he starts playing at Vets, the local park in Long Beach.
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He's in Long Beach at this time.
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And he's he's pretty good. He's pretty good.
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He's not amazing, but he's pretty good.
26:48
Um, Vets pickup basketball is like ruthless.
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Like, you're on the team if you're good enough.
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If you're not, you're not.
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So, he's turning up and he's just on the sidelines.
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He's he's never getting on the side of the court.
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He's never never getting played, but he is like he enjoys it and he's he's decent and he's like this could be this could be my ticket out.
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So there's a no parking sign outside his house.
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He spends hours and hours and hours and hours and hours shooting against the no parking sign.
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Uh then he starts dribbling the ball to school.
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Then he finds a mentor and he goes all in on basketball basically. And he gets better. He gets better. He gets better. He's still too small.
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He's at the time 5 foot two.
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Um, you know, he's hit puberty and he's still 5 foot2 and you're screwed if you're that spoiled with basketball.
27:34
So, he's praying and praying and praying that he becomes taller. Um, >> which he did. >> Which he did. He did. He did.
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So, he'd write on a piece of paper every night, God, please make me 6'2 and 220 pounds by the morning.
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And every night, he'd then get up and look in the mirror and be like, [ __ ] >> [ __ ] I'm still small.
27:54
Um anyway, and he he he he keeps playing and he does have the growth spurts and he hustles his way into getting noticed um getting noticed by a Naval Academy recruiter who comes and says, "You're good.
28:08
I think you I think you'd be good on the team."
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At this point, David, he barely knows who the academy are.
28:14
He see, you know, he's seen the Army Navy football game on CBS, so we sort of heard of the Navy.
28:19
um you know his father was actually in the Mar um yeah in the Marines I think. >> Um yes.
28:26
Um, so he knows of the military, you know, but he he never crossed his mind that he'd go join and certainly not as an officer like um but he gets recruited basically.
28:36
And so he he he starts off going to the preparatory school in an uh sorry in Rhode Island.
28:43
Um and he arrives and he's a a fish out of water.
28:48
Um, in one thing he said to me that I thought was quite interesting is that he had the the defining struggle of his childhood in his words was was poverty was how am I going to feed myself tonight? >> Yeah.
29:01
>> Yeah. racism he hadn't directly encountered because he he was he was he was friends with and living with in African-American neighborhoods and his his family and friends were African-American and he he his wife was so insular that that he he
29:18
he wasn't out in the world enough to to experience it directly >> right >> um and it wasn't until he got to he got out into the big bad world that then poverty no longer becomes a problem but then he's realizing he's having to prove himself in a whole another way Um, yeah. >> One of the things he said to me that I
29:34
>> One of the things he said to me that I really really resonated with me was that he wasn't really sure how much of it was him, i. e.
29:44
these people think I'm bad because I'm black >> and how much of it was really they really thought that. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
29:53
And and then he told me some stories where unfortunately he got confirmation >> that yeah certain people certainly not everyone uh but certain people really did feel that. >> Yeah.
30:08
>> Um and and and talk a bit about the way he decided to deal with that because I found that very instructive. Mhm.
30:17
>> Well, again, I think the I mean, to deal with the to deal with the racism specifically, he he was like, I'm going to beat them. >> Yeah.
30:27
He basically what he said was the only way I can win here is to be better. >> Yeah.
30:33
>> And not just a little better, >> I have to be significant.
30:35
I have to be a quantum leap above. >> Yeah.
30:40
One of the things about David is I think he's probably one of the top I don't know 20 people that I know who puts more pressure on himself. >> Oh yeah.
30:53
>> Than other people putting pressure on him.
30:57
>> I I I mean I spent a weekend with him and his family and I'm like just >> calm down. You you'll be okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. He's relentless. Absolutely relentless. Um Yeah. Yeah.
31:09
And I think the another thing I tried to sort of tease out in the book is that David had to he spent his entire childhood having to fight tooth and nail to prove himself to everyone.
31:29
>> Not not only that, but for he had to fight tooth and nail for everything. >> For everything. Yes. Correct. Everything.
31:35
and he had to throw himself out there aggressively and he had to do that in the enable academy as well.
31:41
He has to prove himself over and over and over again.
31:44
And then there's a point in the book where he has made it and he has to calibrate his approach.
31:51
He has to learn to so so there's a scene early in the book where um he um he is getting bullied at school.
32:00
Um, big guy, big David's in, he's little and a big sixth grader who's a scary guy.
32:10
Everyone's scared of this guy.
32:10
I think he's older than sixth grader.
32:11
Um, and he's coming for David at school.
32:14
And David turns and runs and runs home. Runs runs runs. Gets home. So, oh god, I'm back. This isn't Compton.
32:21
I'm back at I'm back at Granny's. I'm safe.
32:22
And there's always at Granny's is just this amazing place where there's doesn't family members, cousins, uncles, people who doesn't even they say they're related.
32:31
He doesn't even know how, you know, just constantly people coming and going. It's a fortress.
32:35
And he gets in the gates.
32:37
He's like, "Oh, thank goodness. I'm safe. I'm safe. I'm safe."
32:40
Um, and his cousin's there.
32:40
And his cousin says, "What are you doing here?"
32:44
Like, "You shouldn't be here now."
32:44
And David says, "Ah, this guy, he was, you know, he was coming for me." The cousin said, "What? So, what did you do?"
32:49
And David says, "Well, I ran."
32:50
And his cousin said, "Hm, sit there."
32:55
So, his cousin disappears.
32:59
David sort of waits at the house thinking what's going on.
33:00
Um half an hour later his cousin and some of their friends pull up in the car and David's like, "What's going on?"
33:08
And they've kidnapped the bully and they get him out the car and say, "David, we do not run in this family. We do not run.
33:18
You're going to have to fight this guy." So they fight him.
33:22
David gets his ass kicked.
33:25
Um, and then you know the message is he's not going to run.
33:28
And then you know for the rest of the story he he isn't running.
33:33
Something comes through he goes he goes back for them harder.
33:34
But then there is a point uh towards the back third of the story where he suddenly realizes that approach. He needs to moderate it.
33:45
It got him this far but like is he you know sometimes you have to tactically retreat.
33:49
Um, and yeah, I don't want to give it away, but he does. And it goes from there.
33:56
>> And it was one of the things we talked about a lot.
33:58
He's like literally he said, "Jim, you live in a different world than I do."
34:08
>> And he's fascinated almost like a anthropologist, right?
34:11
He he wants to be able to take in the entire scene, >> see how people are interacting, >> but never falsely.
34:20
In other words, he he'll modify his behavior. >> Yeah.
34:26
>> But it doesn't change who David is, >> so he'll he'll he might tell somebody that they're a [ __ ] idiot, but he will do it in a far more polite manner. Right.
34:39
And one of the things about him that really just continued to impress me, I I joke to him, well, I said, "Is Chumba Wombas I get knocked down, but I get back up again, your theme song?"
34:51
And he goes, "A little bit, right?"
34:54
And you know, it takes a lot of courage just like put aside what he was going through.
35:06
It it takes a lot of courage for anyone in life to I mean he could have been from a middleclass household with a mom who didn't have uh psychological issues um and it still would have taken a lot of courage.
35:22
Do do you think that do you think it was that bully moment or the gun moment or because another thing he said to me which really stuck with me when I was staying with him.
35:36
He showed me a picture from I think he was probably 14 >> and there were a bunch of other kids in the picture >> and he started pointing to them jail dead >> really >> you know >> and and and then he looked at me and he goes I knew that if I didn't take action and if I didn't just keep taking action I was going to end up like them. Mhm.
36:04
>> And to me, that kind of courage under that kind of pressure, under all of the mirrored things that were happening in his life, um I I I find the refined David, the surgeon, um he he still looks at things like, "Okay, what's wrong with this picture?"
36:31
and and it and it uh motivates him to try to solve problems.
36:37
>> He's really good at it, right?
36:40
>> And I I talk to him once a week via Zoom and you know I I said, "So, how's the new job at the hospital going?"
36:47
And he immediately goes into everything that could be corrected.
36:56
It's one of the reasons why he's interested in our world, right?
36:57
venture investing, that sort of uh much quicker pace.
37:06
>> Um, but talk a bit about his dive into finance because that was really remarkable to me for a couple of reasons.
37:17
Number one, David can get to almost anyone.
37:20
I mean, if Ben Graham were still alive, David would know him.
37:28
um and and but he also does the deep and heavy work.
37:34
>> He talk about how he takes that approach not just in finance but in his entire life. >> Yeah.
37:39
Well, so so so I mean the origin of finances is the the a combination of his childhood and the amount of money he spanked as soon as he had the ability to to spank it and coach Lavki's advice and David is uh initially skeptical of anyone.
38:00
You have to earn David's trust.
38:01
Yes, you have to earn you have to earn it.
38:03
Um, and so even as coach Vladkkey, who he did respect, was telling him all these things, he was still thinking, I need to look this up myself, David was doing applied mathematics at the at the Naval Academy, so he's a >> maths brain.
38:17
>> Um, and so he just he did the deep dive.
38:21
He read every I mean, you you know the textbooks better than I do, but he read every textbook. No, man.
38:25
I'm sure he read your book. Um, and he Yeah.
38:32
So I and and he did that for he he he does that for every part of his life he goes into he goes all in. He does nothing else.
38:39
I mean, even basketball, he um he would go there was the BNL, the uh I think it was the Bernett neighborhood library near him, >> right?
38:48
>> And he would go there, he'd play basketball every day and when he couldn't play or when it was night or whatever, he'd go to the library and he'd pour over um a like uh just basketball manuals, coaching manuals, training manuals, fitness manuals, whatever.
39:06
But also, who were the good players locally?
39:08
who's getting name dropped on the forums. Like it was quite funny.
39:11
So he he said to you know he was constantly browsing SoCal forums to find the names of people he needs to be one better than if he's going to get into college.
39:20
And actually I was researching this book.
39:22
I spent hours and hours on SoCal forums finding the names and finding the names of when he was mentioned and stuff.
39:26
Um but it goes back to the point we were saying earlier about he he likes a challenge and but he needs to he has a pathological need to win.
39:39
uh which is how he's got as far as he did and he will go all in. >> Yeah.
39:43
>> And what were some of the surprising things?
39:48
Uh obviously you've already described how we brought you into the project.
39:53
>> Um what surprised you the most?
39:56
>> I I'd actually say I mean we've done a lot on David's story.
39:57
I'd actually say the I mean right I'd never written a book before so there was a lot I mean that whole process was surprising beginning to end.
40:06
I mean, if I look back at my first draft, which I thought was pretty good at the time, I had a quick look at it earlier and it's I I it is so embarrassing how bad it is, which I hope is a process every writer thinks about their first draft. I don't know.
40:19
You I don't know if you did the Yeah, I thought the same thing.
40:23
>> Um I I I I suppose I was most surprised in the writing process how much how much of the book comes together in that last 5%.
40:32
5%. like the difference between what the book was so long past the first draft when I thought it was 95 when it was effectively 95% done in terms of the structure and that sort of thing but how much you then squeeze out of that final
40:46
parts of the process um and how actually how the style you know the style I use in the book is very different from actually from how I write on my um you know I write about films on my subst my first love and I I actually write a completely different style there for the book. And I actually and it it wasn't so
41:04
And I actually and it it wasn't so much a conscious decision as this a style emerges that fits the material.
41:09
Um which you know the first draft I was trying to write it in the way that I write online which is a little bit more maybe not flowery but cerebral I suppose. >> Yeah.
41:23
>> Um and it didn't fit the material and with the help of Dylan who was my editor who's like if Dylan's your editor then your floor's pretty high.
41:29
like it's sort of a Yeah.
41:31
Um and uh sort of landed on this style that I wasn't expecting to land on, but that I think really fits the fits the subjects.
41:41
>> Briefly, um what were you expecting to write your first book? Right.
41:49
>> What was what was the transformation like?
41:52
I I I've written four, as you know.
41:54
I just completed my first fiction >> which Dylan is going to tear apart. Thank God.
42:02
Uh, and I I absolutely like you looked at my first attempts, which I was, you know, hey, this fiction ain't so hard. Oh, they were horrible. Horrible. Horrible.
42:15
>> Um, and the thing that I love about the book and the way you chose to write it was what you just said.
42:20
It was It's I read a lot and I I read a lot of biographies and autobiographies.
42:29
It's a very different style. >> What was it?
42:32
Was that part of the transformation?
42:35
It's just like, >> okay, this is the way I normally write, but this is what I'm hearing, so I've got to completely revamp the way this gets written. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think so.
42:45
It was sort of, you know, when you look back at these things, it always you then explain it away in a way that sounds like it was all pre-planned, whereas, as you know, these things are much more you're [ __ ] around and then something sticks effectively.
42:56
But but I mean, you know, after lots of back and forth with Dylan and thinking about it, talking about it, B b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b basically there's four.
43:02
So the style is very sort of direct, uncompromising, quite profane going back to how much Dylan uh David swears.
43:10
Um punchy was, you know, quite gritty style.
43:15
Um no pretention hopefully.
43:17
Um and there there's sort of four reasons I think why that why we landed on it.
43:23
Um, you know, the first is that it it suits David's voice. >> It's how he speaks.
43:32
It sort of suits his It wouldn't work if I'm having these long flowery cerebral sentences.
43:37
It's like that's not him. That's not him.
43:40
Um, two, it suits the story.
43:45
>> Um, you know, the the most attract I'm sure this is what appealed to you about David's story initially is that it is a story. you.
43:52
It is if this read like some dusty journalistic biography of Churchill that my dad's got in his, you know, the dozens of Ward biographies my dad's got in his bookshelf back home, it wouldn't I I'd be doing his story a disservice.
44:07
It's should it reads like fiction, but it's true is what I wanted it to be anyway. Um, so that was two.
44:17
Three was um well, I've forgotten three, but let's argue I'll skip to four. Was that it?
44:22
I think I want, you know, I'd like to think that the Oh, sorry. I'll go back to three.
44:29
Three is that no one knows who I am, relatively speaking.
44:33
More people know who David are.
44:33
Um, but you know, the the size of David's audience, I want far more people to read the book.
44:39
And so, the book needed to it needed to be something.
44:41
It couldn't just be a vanilla by the numbers routine thing.
44:48
It needed to feel different.
44:48
It needed to feel unusual.
44:49
it needed to feel sort of some like huh this is a new way of approaching this.
44:55
Um and then the final reason actually is that I think David Zark there's a lot of bad stuff going around about young men at the moment incels and all that sort of stuff and like there's not many like I think lots of men are young men are looking for a role model.
45:13
Um, and I think David's story genuinely is I'm always hesitant to use the word inspirational because as soon as you say like an inspirational biography, you think, okay, every biography, this is an inspir, do you know what I mean?
45:24
It's sort of but but I think for for a certain young man reader, it genuinely is.
45:29
And I wanted and, you know, I wanted to use a style that was unpretentious and that was direct and that, you know, younger readers, teenagers could engage with.
45:40
Um yeah, >> I I showed the manuscript to a friend of mine who's very ariodiodite. He loves to read.
45:49
>> Um he particularly likes to read biographies and autobiographies.
45:55
And he sat with it and read most of it in a couple hours.
45:58
And he came back and he went, "Um, what else has this author done?"
46:03
And I was like, "Actually, this is his first book."
46:08
and he goes, you know, get the [ __ ] out of here.
46:11
Because he basically said, this makes David alive to me.
46:14
And he and he said to me, I could think, and he referenced some other biographies.
46:26
Um, and he said, >> "This might actually become a new way of writing biography because it is very different."
46:35
I remember when I first read it, I was like, "Whoa.
46:40
Why the [ __ ] have I given this guy?
46:42
>> Ed, what have you done?
46:45
>> But then the more I read it, the more perfect I found it to be because I think you're absolutely right.
46:51
Um, authenticity, you know, everyone talks about it, right?
46:56
You have to be authentic.
46:57
You have to be authentic.
46:57
Um, and very few people pull it off.
47:00
H how did how did a nice young Brit uh with a very very different background, how did you manage to write in that what I think is a quite incredible and vivid and alive voice that is very much David? >> Oh, well, thank you.
47:21
I hadn't I hadn't heard that story, so yeah, that that's good to hear. Thank you.
47:25
But the I mean I had you know I I interviewed David for this project in total um over five days and then again I read I I read a draft of the book out to him over several days.
47:38
So I had you know dozens of hours of interviews with David plus he went through a spurgeon 2021 where he did a lot of podcasts.
47:45
Um he has a YouTube channel.
47:47
He posts things on his ex.
47:49
So there's a lot of there's a lot of David speaking out there.
47:51
So, I did I did my due diligence and I I I read that.
47:56
I listened to that over and over again. I got a transcript.
47:58
I read it over and over again.
48:00
I tried to start with I tried to start my scenes, my stories with with David's I started with what David had told me.
48:11
I word for word I'd then change it completely.
48:13
But it meant that I was building out of something that was true to his voice.
48:19
true to his voice. And then I then completely change you know it was I tried to use him as the starting point at all times ra I tried to completely extinguish myself from the book basically so I don't I there's an
48:33
author's note um but other than that there's I I am not in the book I am not there it it is David is in the book um and with one caveat in that I just couldn't help film popping up in the book so so So, so, so that you know, act quotes, >> you know, he loves movies. >> Well, he's a mean guy as well. Exactly.
48:54
>> Well, he's a mean guy as well. Exactly. Exactly.
48:56
So, so I felt like I wasn't doing him a disservice by doing that. Yeah.
49:00
>> Um, so you know, act titles or film quotes and >> films are weaved all the way through.
49:05
There's lots of little Easter eggs for, you know, little mini quotes or whatever that you know.
49:10
>> And and did you think of it cinematically?
49:12
Did you think of it that way in the way you were structuring the story?
49:16
because you you pointed out that you kind of decided you were going to write it like it was fiction.
49:23
>> But because there's a lot of exciting stuff in this story. >> Yeah.
49:28
>> Um but was that the vision?
49:28
Like I I want to see this on screen. >> Yeah. Yeah.
49:34
Of course I tried to visualize it as I as I went and um you know I was reading a lot of biographies as I went.
49:40
Um, but I actually found thinking of different films as I went I found actually helped me more because that's how my brain works.
49:48
I talked about Into the Wild, you know.
49:51
>> What what what are some of the other movies that inspired you? >> Yeah.
49:55
So, so I suppose there's three sort of buckets.
49:57
There's it it's a proceeds of happiness story.
50:02
It's a good bill hunting story.
50:02
It's, you know, there's there's that art.
50:03
But I think more interestingly, I I remember hearing this thing where when Spillboat made Redders the Lost Ark, he was like, "Why do we just don't include the boring bits?
50:16
What if we what if it just moves?
50:19
What if it just what if it just keeps on moving?"
50:20
And I was like, "Well, why does this book need to be 400 pages?
50:22
Why couldn't it be 200 pages and keep on moving?" >> Yeah.
50:26
>> Um same with like Mad Max Fury Road where it's just like D.
50:28
And I was think that that would be quite cool to do a biography sort of in that style. >> Yeah.
50:34
Um, and then the other thing I heard was uh someone I heard someone describe ET as like a micro epic in the way that it's like it's it's a story about one boy and an alien and it's sort of, you know, it it's it's mini, but it's some something about it, something ineffable about it is it's is epic.
50:54
It's sort of this like sweeping tale, Cuban tale.
50:58
I can't articulate it better than that.
51:00
But I was thinking of David's story as a micro epic in that he it's it's just one man's story.
51:06
It's not, you know, other and other biographies I read like ended with, you know, I read one biography which is sort of the closest comp I could find about um I've forgotten his name, but he grew up in bad circumstances, but then it ended with him taking down Bin Laden or something, you know.
51:22
And that is an epic, you know. >> Yeah.
51:24
>> Um and and that's not David's story.
51:24
And but I but I tried to sort of find a way to bring the epic into a a micro story. I don't know.
51:32
That's a vague answer, but is what I was thinking anyway. Yeah.
51:36
>> And so now that you've gotten to sort of live inside David's head, inside David's world, what would you like if if somebody said they bought your book >> and they looked at you and they said, "Ed, G like give me the too long didn't read."
51:56
What What's David really like? What's his essence? >> What's his essence? >> Um, relentless.
52:07
Relentless >> in everything. Yeah. Relentlessly ambitious.
52:12
Relentlessly Relentlessly determined to provide for his family.
52:17
Relentlessly determined to succeed.
52:21
>> Relentlessly self-critical.
52:24
>> Relentlessly self-critical. Absolutely. Relentlessly. I can do better. >> Yes. 100%. >> And 100%. And so can you. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Yeah.
52:36
>> That's a really important addition. Yeah. Right.
52:38
And and one of the things that I hope the book achieves is there are a lot of kids out there right now >> who and they don't even have to be in his dire circumstances, right?
52:50
Um and reading the book I think will inspire them.
52:59
Wow, look at what he overcame. >> Yeah.
53:03
>> And you know, here I am sitting in Greenwich, Connecticut, and mom and dad are both uh doing well and helping me with my schoolwork.
53:11
>> I I better I I better uh be a little relentless myself.
53:14
How much you do How much of that do you think is innate >> verse learned? Yeah.
53:20
I I've been thinking about this question a lot recently because I've just I have a daughter who's now 14 months. I know.
53:27
>> And um we have some friends who are daughters who are around the same age.
53:32
>> And I think before I always wanted to think that a lot was nurture >> and I'm quickly quickly realizing that I think there's probably a little bit more nature in there.
53:42
I mean it's but my wife and I always do because I my wife is sort of much more down to earth and a problem solver than I am.
53:49
I'm a bit up in the clouds and and I always like the idea of our daughter being, you know, like me, loving films or books or be sort of a, you know, sort of more cerebral, whereas Megan, you know, would would love our daughter to be uh scrappy and, you know, Yeah.
54:04
out out in the world and getting stuff done and, you know, grubby knees and and we always joke that like Megan's winning.
54:14
>> And and I could nurture I could nurture our little one however I want, but her nature is she wants to be out. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> he's crappy.
54:20
So, to go back to David, um, you know, I I I think he didn't have the nurture.
54:29
>> So, does it have to be nature?
54:31
The only I think the only trouble with I'm sort of thinking as I as I'm talking here, the only trouble with saying it's nature is it implies a lack of agency.
54:37
It implies like you just got what you're given, which is clearly not true.
54:42
David's story is clear evidence against that. >> Exactly. >> Um, so I don't know.
54:47
I don't know what the answer is. It's both. >> Yeah.
54:50
I think uh epigenetics is an interesting way to look at it.
54:54
Like yeah, the gene is there, but it needs to be turned on or off.
55:00
>> And I think that your book shows like those genes getting turned on, >> right? Yes.
55:07
>> Uh the kind of shame he felt when he didn't fight the bully.
55:11
>> Uh and that was brought on by his relatives saying, "Yeah, no, we don't roll that way." >> Yeah.
55:16
Um, and then he's like, "Okay."
55:20
And and that one got turned on.
55:20
It as you were talking though, it reminded me of the funny story, probably a hypocral, but uh about a British lord who said, "Before I was married, I had six theories on how to raise children and what they would be like."
55:37
He goes, "Now I have six children and no theories." >> Yeah. Exactly.
55:45
Because even brothers and sisters raised in the same household, like they're they're in many studies, they find them to be as dissimilar as the neighbor kid. >> Interested. Interesting.
55:59
>> And and so it's always fascinated me because >> uh you know there's a whole school of thought that we're blank slates, right?
56:07
You can make us in the middle of the 20th century, behaviorism was the dominant school of psychology.
56:14
And you know the the practitioners would say just give me six babies.
56:17
Tell me what you want them to be.
56:20
Uh if you want him to be a lawyer, I'll make him a lawyer.
56:25
You want a doctor, I'll give you a doctor.
56:28
>> So it was all nurture. >> All nurture.
56:31
>> Guess how that turned out.
56:36
and and you know uh the the research on the uh more nature side that replicates that proves out etc.
56:45
But like you said, I believe that it it isn't just automatically, right? Agency is required. >> Yeah.
56:57
>> And you can be the brightest, most gifted, talented individual in the world.
57:04
>> And if you are not aically going after those gifts that you have, Yeah. >> they wither and die. >> Yeah. Absolutely.
57:10
And and and I think the other thing with David as well is he He he's very good at even though we didn't have the parental guidance that many of us have.
57:27
He was very good at identifying an opportunity when he found one from someone who could fill that role.
57:33
So, like one of my favorite things about the book, which again I didn't realize until I spoke to lots of people and did my research, is that there's lots of people in David's life who just appear for one moment and one conversation or one whatever and they a combination of their kindness and generosity and David's ability to realize I'm getting something here that I could use um has like such an outsized impact.
58:04
So there's one teacher uh called Miss Shoot who I I spoke to um who it's so interesting because David had told me about Miss Shoot um an English teacher who after David had got into David had got into the academy um he needed his sats to be a certain score and David likes unsurprisingly given everything we said about him he likes maths and sciences black and white. Yeah. Oh yeah.
58:29
>> No [ __ ] No floaty, you know, essays which could be right, could be wrong. Yeah. Right or wrong.
58:34
So English was never his never his forte. Never liked it. >> Right. Right.
58:38
>> Uh and he had to get his English score up.
58:41
>> And he was just despairing because he just thought, I can't do this. I cannot do this.
58:45
>> And he he told me about Miss Shoot as this incredible figure who gave him absolutely everything and was upset, you know, he he spoke so highly of her.
58:54
um as someone who mentored him, gave him just what he needed just to get over the line on his English score.
59:01
And I spoke to her and she said, "Oh, of course I remember David.
59:05
David was one of the one of the special ones.
59:06
She speaks so highly of him."
59:08
But she said, "I gave him one hour, two hours.
59:11
It I gave him so I gave him so little."
59:14
And she she was shocked that David remembered it with such intensity because she said, you know, I I really took I I I I really cared for him, but I was doing my job.
59:25
I just gave him an hour, but he it meant so much to him.
59:30
And then he'd keep on referring all the way through his life when he, you know, late later in life he needs to um pass some tests that had a more English component and he's he goes back and he's thinking of that moment and he keeps on using it uh keeps on using that memory throughout his life.
59:45
Um which yeah, it's cool.
59:48
>> The the thing that I think about a lot with him is to pick up on what you're saying.
59:55
um he will relentlessly go after something and to a point where like I love rabbit holes as you know and I will spend days sometimes weeks trying to figure something out. Um he puts me to shame.
1:00:11
I mean honestly uh he one of the first times that we started after we became friends >> um we were chatting with each other and he starts breaking out all these you know in what works on Wall Street you say this but I think if you refer to these papers that I read over here and I'm like wow okay good for you.
1:00:41
Um, what do you think about the multiplicity of his interests? >> Yeah.
1:00:48
Yeah, that was that was that was another thing that sort of hooked me hooked me on the story was that he the sort of an aggregate effect of everything he's excelled at that is just ridiculous to be honest. >> Yeah.
1:01:03
>> Um, and I mean I think it goes back to what you were saying is that he'll just go he'll do the work.
1:01:07
He'll do the deep dive on whatever it is he's doing.
1:01:09
dive on whatever it is he's doing. um you know to go go back to what you were saying about um PhDs how like didn't have a math PhD and he was doing cryptologology and he he he only got into cryptologology at very very late notice because he he was planning to do the submarines program right >> which in itself is incredibly elite I
1:01:28
mean there would have been some good chapters in the book if he' done it yeah >> um but that didn't work out sort of one of the one of the various setbacks >> and he's thought what do I do now like I'm he touched someone and gets advice tries to give cryptologology a go because he's got a mathematics degree and he's barely heard of it. I mean obviously you know
1:01:44
heard of it. I mean obviously you know they would have covered it briefly in the academy but it's not something um and he then goes deep and he PhD people are skeptical whatever but then he right before he does medicine when he's already accepted medicine as a he
1:02:02
does cryptologology for a few years and then um switches to do medicine and his final posting he's agreed to do medicine so he should really be coasting because he knows he's not going to be a cryptologologist So he's put he's put in a sort of a effectively a think tank for about six months. Um
1:02:18
Um and he has a mentor called Sil Gonzalez who I also spoke to who's a amazing guy.
1:02:27
Um and apparently Sil said that the a PhD person came in and was like this kid is this kid has got it.
1:02:32
This kid is smart and it's just cuz he put the work in. >> Yeah.
1:02:38
And he what's interesting too to me is he he doesn't have contempt for certification.
1:02:47
>> I mean after all he is his MD and he has all these advanceds on robotic surgery and >> everything else.
1:02:54
But >> it's sufficient but not enough would be the way I would put it with the way David looks at the world. >> Yeah.
1:03:02
And there's an element of course of like you do it to prove you can. >> Yeah.
1:03:07
you know that when he do David is a um a do rather than an MD um doctor of osteopathy and when he and there's you know medicine as these arcane things where there's you know MD there's more MDs than there are DOS >> right >> um MDs there dos are newer it's just slightly less prestigious so when David is taking his board exams he's like I'm going to [ __ ] do the MD exam as well to prove that I'm as good as these guys.
1:03:38
And of course he he nails it. He nails both of them.
1:03:39
But yeah, so there's definitely an element of yeah, I'm going to do it. I'm going to show him.
1:03:46
>> And then of course he goes on for the specialized training.
1:03:48
Is that in the book or >> No.
1:03:50
So the book ends I was thinking I wasn't sure where to end the book.
1:03:52
And the the Was this given away?
1:03:54
I don't think it's given away really.
1:03:56
The the book ends with him in 2017 with him >> fulfilling the man of the house promise. I'll say that. Yeah.
1:04:04
So, so, so that's just when he's graduating as a surgeon. Yeah.
1:04:08
>> So, we have we include one surgery scene in the book and then but the then specialization afterwards, >> but that will that's for the sequel.
1:04:17
>> How much of an impact do you think the Navy had on David as a person? >> As a person? >> Good question.
1:04:31
As for his life, enormous. absolutely enormous.
1:04:34
Um I spoke to his his his his sponsor.
1:04:38
They have sponsor parents at the Naval Academy where just people who they can go for hot meal and Washington and that's local.
1:04:45
>> And I spoke to his uh sponsor mom, a woman named Meen.
1:04:49
>> And she was a 70s Vietnam hippie protester, you know, she she she was she and she said to me, she the last thing I ever expected was to have any sort of relationship with a with a military institution.
1:05:03
And she's like, "But the difference that it makes to these people's lives in terms of how they can go on even if they don't stay in the military." >> Yeah.
1:05:12
>> The the the network and I I very much found everyone I spoke to from the military was he's one of ours.
1:05:16
We're going to give you everything you need on this man.
1:05:20
Um so I think his life enormous.
1:05:22
It made his career, you know.
1:05:25
Um as a as a person, maybe not as much as you'd think.
1:05:30
He's such a strong personality.
1:05:33
>> He is >> he's such a strong personality and you know speaking to speaking to people from his childhood I think he was still like that then I I I think you know it's I think he has always had that in him. >> Yeah.
1:05:47
>> He's become more confident certainly but that comes from success. >> Yeah.
1:05:53
>> Um so whether it transformed him as a person I'm not sure it did but it definitely transformed his life.
1:05:57
He once joked to me that if I was in the military, any branch, he goes, "You you'd be in Fort Knox or the Brig."
1:06:09
Um, but I I one of the reasons we get along so well is I do see a little bit of that or a lot of that in him.
1:06:18
>> And but what I what mitigates it for me is >> he's right. >> Yeah.
1:06:24
What I love about him is it wasn't just what is wrong with fix it. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:06:32
>> He He's not a yapper, you know, there's so much of that online where, you know, this is wrong and that is wrong.
1:06:38
And of course, they offer no solution.
1:06:41
I don't honestly think David is looking for wrong.
1:06:48
>> He he just notices it quickly because he's a very very bright guy. >> Yeah.
1:06:54
um but then immediately goes into how do I solve this mode >> and I think one of his uh annoyances to use a polite word um is he can see so clearly how what he's suggesting is a vastly superior way to do it and like he would test those out on me and I'm like you mean they don't do it that way already. >> Yeah.
1:07:24
>> And and he's like, "No, no, they don't."
1:07:28
And so he is a really interesting mix to me of a deeply analytical person, >> but also a deeply emotional person who really really cares. >> Yeah.
1:07:43
>> And and it's it's not because he wants it done his way.
1:07:46
It's because he wants his patients to have the absolute best care.
1:07:53
He wants the nurses to be on a schedule that is not going to overburden them or overt tax them etc.
1:07:59
And so like he would run the solutions by me and for most of the time I would simply say I just can't believe it isn't already done that way.
1:08:10
And then of course comes the sle the slew of [ __ ] and H have you noticed I mean because you've been doing the those calls for was it three years or if not more. Yeah.
1:08:22
Have you noticed because you know David we should say is is he is a in relative terms a young man.
1:08:28
I mean he's 42 or something >> very well from the >> the uh perch of 66. He's a child. He's a baby.
1:08:38
>> And you know and he's his career developed.
1:08:40
Have you noticed like a change in in in how those conversations have gone? >> Yeah.
1:08:45
um he has become much more um tolerant >> interesting >> of and it happened in my life too I when I was younger was the quite a proitizer and it was my way or the highway you know it's like the Elliot poem I shall tell you all I shall tell you >> when the woman looks at him and says that isn't what I meant at all and and so I noticed that I went through a period where I really became keenly aware of the fragility of all humans, myself included.
1:09:27
And I'm seeing that sort of calmer approach with David now. He still gets fired up.
1:09:35
There's no doubt about that.
1:09:37
But he is much more patient realizing I think it's because he's been in these systems for so long.
1:09:50
>> He realizes, okay, incremental. >> Yeah. >> I'll settle for it. Yeah. >> Right. Yeah.
1:09:56
>> If I if I can get these five or 10 things in, then the system is going to be that materially better. >> Yeah. Got to play the game. >> Right.
1:10:04
And in earlier conversations, he was, as you pointed out, black or white, yes or no, good or bad.
1:10:13
>> And if it wasn't perfectly good, it was bad.
1:10:19
>> And I I definitely got that sense that he has become more wise in in that regard.
1:10:24
It doesn't take anything away from his talent, his ambition, etc.
1:10:31
And I often wonder and I want to get your opinion.
1:10:38
Where do you think David ends up?
1:10:40
>> I know I've wondered this at one point if you know would he go into politics or I think he'd find it too frustrating.
1:10:46
I think I find it too frustrating.
1:10:48
So it's interesting actually because when I when I first met David in 2023 summer was when I flew out to meet him and at the time I thought he was going to be relentlessly all in exclusively on medicine. >> Yeah.
1:11:06
And actually at that time he he was in a big he was thinking of businesses and he had all these he was so excited all these business ideas um and which made me think that there will be a next chapter.
1:11:20
What that is I don't know but I don't think he is just going to be I I don't think it will be medicine forever.
1:11:25
I mean, I don't know enough about the presumably there's a whole medical entrepreneurial >> world out there with in America, which I I just don't know about. >> Yeah, there is.
1:11:37
>> So, some sort of medical company would be my guess, but I have no idea. I have no idea.
1:11:40
But I I I think he'll he'll he'll want to find a new mountain to climb.
1:11:44
David likes having a mountain to climb, you know.
1:11:46
He he because he was a general surgeon.
1:11:48
Uh the book ends becoming a general surgeon.
1:11:49
He he went back into training to become a vascular surgeon.
1:11:53
surgeon. um you know that's he he he he was a cryptologologist he was doing really well wanted a new mountain to climb went into medicine general surgeon doing really well a new mountain to climb went become a vascular surgeon
1:12:06
where he's now doing by all accounts very well I'm sure he'll find himself a new a new mountain >> yeah I I agree um and that's another thing about him that appeals to me um and it isn't just like a restless energy he's truly interesting, right? And what
1:12:23
And what I love about him is he's truly a polymath.
1:12:29
Um, and not a dilotant polymath.
1:12:33
He goes deep on anything that he's looking at.
1:12:36
And so, like you, I don't know where David ends up, but I would never bet against David because he's just um he's quite an extraordinary individual.
1:12:54
And and the part that we haven't really even talked about, um he's a wonderful father. >> Yeah.
1:13:02
um when we're talking on Zoom, his kids will come in and say hi to me and you know uh he he's he's very very involved and obviously I think I asked him once I I said are you extra involved because >> of the situation.
1:13:18
He said maybe at first but no I I I just these young people my children mean the world to me. >> Yeah.
1:13:28
and I really want to try to give them everything I didn't have.
1:13:31
But that isn't that's no longer the reason.
1:13:35
I I genuinely love doing it. >> Yeah.
1:13:40
>> I love coaching my son.
1:13:40
I love uh helping my daughter with her gymnastics.
1:13:47
>> And yeah, >> I he he he's just I wouldn't say parapotetic, but he he needs to be moving. >> Yeah, absolutely.
1:13:57
And actually on that, so there there's a moment towards the end of the book where he um meets his his first daughter who who is his now wife's from a previous relationship.
1:14:06
But yeah, she she she's David's daughter.
1:14:09
And >> um he he he Kim, his wife, says, "I want you to come and meet meet my daughter."
1:14:17
>> They're sort of newish in the relationship.
1:14:18
And David is so nervous about it.
1:14:21
and he's just thinking about he knows from his childhood like what mom's new man >> Yeah.
1:14:28
>> how much that can [ __ ] you up.
1:14:31
>> Um and he's absolutely determined that he's not going to be that.
1:14:33
But he's really thinking about it.
1:14:34
He's he's thinking about how can I you know she's she's a big she was a Peppa Pig nut at the time.
1:14:38
So he's like okay I'm going to like talk to her about Peppa Pig.
1:14:41
because, you know, planning his way in to sort of show that he was and he was thinking about it so much that he didn't realize it wasn't until it happened that he was like, you don't need to like think this is just so like I love this.
1:14:54
This is so like this is I'm having a this isn't something you plan for, >> right?
1:14:59
>> You know, I I I I I love this girl and she's, you know, part of my life and and he just thinks like, gosh, why didn't I like why didn't I have that?
1:15:08
like who were these men from our childhood who couldn't see like how good this is?
1:15:11
Um and then yeah, he's had two more kids since and by all accounts is very much the same.
1:15:19
>> So if I ask you to write another book, >> Yeah.
1:15:23
>> uh what mistakes did you make on this one?
1:15:26
Hopefully, you'll make novel mistakes on the next book, >> but what mistakes did you make with this one that obviously you learned from and and won't >> uh repeat? >> Good question.
1:15:41
What mistakes did I I mean I felt like I was I I don't know whether you found this from your multiple books but I find writing a book is just a series of existential crises. >> Yeah.
1:15:51
>> Punctuated by like brief moments of self-belief which evaporate evaporate the moment you sort of get to the next page. >> Yeah.
1:15:58
Um, you know, I think I I think I my first draft I think I tried to force it into something that the story didn't want it to be.
1:16:15
Um, I tried to put myself in it too much.
1:16:17
M >> um yeah, I I I needed to get sort of swallow my ego, like step away from the story, stop trying to impress people and like let the story emerge in the way that it wants to rather than how I want it to. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:16:33
>> And uh have you found that you're better at getting into somebody else's head now after having done this project?
1:16:40
I mean I would yeah I I I haven't become Darren Brown but like I I definitely I I I I would say more more than I I wouldn't say I like understand you know I can read people better or anything.
1:16:54
I think I do like enjoy thinking about the story potential of people when I meet them and they've had interesting lives. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:17:04
>> You know because suddenly like everything's a potential subject. >> Yeah.
1:17:07
>> Which sounds slightly serial killery but like it's Yeah. Yeah.
1:17:09
It's sort of, you know, it's um it's weird writing a bit because it's both incredibly incredibly difficult, incredibly difficult and sort of long night of the soul stuff.
1:17:21
But it's also you just as long as you just get up and keep writing like eventually a book appears. >> Yeah.
1:17:29
>> Like you just got to keep doing it.
1:17:29
You just got to keep on doing it and like being ruthless with yourself and having a good editor.
1:17:35
And so it sort of made me feel like I just it doesn't have to be a big you can just start you I could just start again and just keep writing. >> Yeah.
1:17:44
>> Um >> what kind of book would you like to write next?
1:17:48
>> I've got two I've got two ideas.
1:17:48
Either as I keep saying I love film, so I'd like to do something filming.
1:17:54
I've got dozens and dozens of film books at home. What? I don't know. I had I had some ideas.
1:18:03
I spoke to you about one idea.
1:18:05
um which I still like but I'm still I'm not sure whether I'm trying to find a story that isn't there in it.
1:18:11
Maybe something film related.
1:18:13
I don't know what or I I I have been writing a a sort of fiction or been doing a bit of playing around with fiction as well because I feel like this book is sort of is quite a good stepping stone into fiction because I was trying to think of it in with a fiction writer's mindset.
1:18:30
Um so I don't know another book. Yes.
1:18:33
what it is is I'm still working that out.
1:18:36
>> And uh I originally conceived of telling David's story as a movie.
1:18:43
>> This make a good movie. >> Oh yeah. Yeah.
1:18:44
It would be amazing movie. Yeah. Yeah.
1:18:48
>> Now, now I'm going to pull a trick on you.
1:18:50
Uh as you know, my final question is we make you emperor of the world and you can't kill anyone.
1:18:56
You can't uh put anyone in a re-education camp, but you can.
1:19:03
We give you a magical microphone and you can say two things into it that are going to incept everybody in the world for whenever their next morning is, they're going to wake up and think, you know, I just had two of the greatest ideas and unlike all the other times, I'm going to act on them.
1:19:20
But here's the uh curveball I'm going to throw at you.
1:19:25
I want you to give me two that you think David would give the world.
1:19:31
>> So the book ends with David returning to his um uh where he did to medical school and he does the he does the keynote address at the um commencement.
1:19:40
It is the commencement address.
1:19:42
Is that the phrase in America?
1:19:44
Yeah, it is the commencement address.
1:19:46
>> And he the first thing he says is strive to be better.
1:19:51
And the second thing he says is treat everyone.
1:19:54
And he said this was advice he got given by Dr. Wizard.
1:19:55
Treat everyone as if they your mom and dad.
1:19:57
And like I I I really like that.
1:20:00
I I you know it the treat everyone as your family.
1:20:04
>> I think that's what he'd say. >> Yeah. I like that.
1:20:06
>> Be better and treat everyone as your family.
1:20:08
>> And uh when are we releasing the book, Ed? >> 8th of December. Tuesday December. So it's coming quickly. Yeah. >> Ed, I love the book.
1:20:14
I think you did a great job. Uh I love David.
1:20:16
So I think everyone is going to love this book. >> Hope so. Thank you very much. >> Thanks for coming on. Thank you.