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It's not that manipulation per se is bad.
Search this video
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It's about the context of how we are manipulating them.
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Persuasion is helping people do things that they themselves want to do.
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The opposite of persuasion is coercion.
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So I call this the regret test.
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If the customer regrets using your product, you're not only ethically in the wrong, you're you've got a business problem.
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You know, everyone clutching their pearls and, you know, setting their hair on fire about, oh, it's social media that's killing our kids.
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It's phones that are killing our kids.
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The causal relationship is in reverse.
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When you have psychological needs that are not met in the real world, you will look for satisfaction of those needs in the virtual world.
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We know that children today have more regulations placed on them than an active duty service member.
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They maximize the objective function for compliance and willingness to be placid in a room for 8 hours.
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That is not the normal human condition. That's right.
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And when they don't conform, oh, they're broken.
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Their brains are messed up.
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No, the system is broken. Exactly.
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[Music] Well, hello everyone.
1:12
It's Jim Oanosy with yet another Infinite Loops.
1:14
know I just spent the last half hour talking pre-recording with my guest returning guest I should say near Aal the best-selling author of hooked how to build habit forming products and indistractable which is what we talked about the first time and the reason I was talking for 30 minutes is because he is a just a font of wonderful wisdom about things that I'm really interested in.
1:47
So that's why I really do this podcast, Ner.
1:49
I I really just like having people on that I want to talk to.
1:55
That's a great hack and it's great to be here with you, Jim, again.
1:56
I appreciate you bringing me back. It's a huge honor.
1:59
Oh, well the honor is mine. The honor is mine.
2:01
Well, last time we talked about your more recent book and we thought this time it' be fun to talk about your earlier book, Hooked, which is now more than 10 years old.
2:09
Um, and uh let's start out with uh it's it's kind of uh a book that teaches you how to become very very persuasive.
2:20
As I was rereading it, I was thinking, boy, Chelini, I see Chelini kind of lurking from all the corners.
2:29
For people who don't know who uh Chelini is, he's kind of the axe.
2:31
He wrote the book influence.
2:34
Um and and for for our viewers who don't know about Hooked, why don't you let's let's start with the with the fourstep cycle that you think really can be very very helpful in getting people interested in in what you want them to be interested in. Sure.
2:53
So the book is really is that was my first book and that came out of a class that I taught at the Stanford Graduate School of Business and then later at the Hassop Platter Institute of Design and the idea behind the book was to steal the secrets of Silicon Valley uh that makes these products so sticky, so engaging.
3:07
So Hooked was was really a I I learned these methods because I had a front row seat at my last company uh which which we then sold which was where we had this intersection of customers uh between gaming and advertising.
3:20
And I became fascinated by how it was that some companies became so good at bringing customers back and others just flopped.
3:30
And it seemed like in our digital age where the real estate on our screens continues to shrink, right?
3:35
As we went from big desktop screens to laptop screens to mobile device screens to now wearable device screens to now screens disappearing altogether when it comes to Amazon Alexa or these voice assistants.
3:47
As that screen shrunk, we had to find new ways to engage customers.
3:53
Meaning that the amount of real estate that you can put in front of a customer's eyeball just became smaller and smaller.
3:59
So if you didn't bring them back from habits, if you didn't bring them back on their own, your product might as well not even exist.
4:04
And so I really became very uh uh I I could see that trend and I kind of became frightened for for what I was going to do next.
4:13
I thought I was going to start another tech company, but I I knew that if I couldn't build a customer habit, I would be in in danger of irrelevance.
4:20
And so I wanted to figure out what is it about these products?
4:22
What is it that makes Facebook and Instagram and Amazon and WhatsApp and Slack and Snapchat?
4:25
Why are these products so sticky?
4:28
And so I wanted to look into the deeper psychology around how they get customers hooked.
4:33
not for their benefit that they already know these techniques.
4:36
I wanted it for the rest of us.
4:37
I wanted it so that all of us could build products and services that keep people coming back for good.
4:43
So my clients have included companies like Duingo that gets people hooked to language learning, FitBod gets people hooked to exercise.
4:49
And so really what the book has done over the past 10 years, and we just put out a a second edition recently, and the model, the basic model, basic psychology has not changed at all.
4:58
The idea of the book is that you could pick it up and figure out why customers aren't coming back.
5:02
And so it doesn't really matter the industry.
5:06
Uh you know, I had customers in in enterprise products, in uh consumer products, all kinds of products that the big idea is how do you get people to come back?
5:15
Because we know that retaining a customer always has a much much higher ROI than finding a new customer.
5:21
So how do you build these habits within our customers? Yeah.
5:23
And uh I'll make a confession.
5:26
And I was telling you offline about our in-house AI and we actually put it in there and we asked our AI to build workflows uh based on your uh and I got to tell you man some of them were really really impressive. Really? Tell me more.
5:46
What did you what did you learn?
5:48
So, well, we learned that the the the simple it's really interesting to me, right, because I'd also put Chelini's influence in there and we didn't get as good of results as we got with your book.
6:00
And I think one of the reasons we got is because you are very clear like with the four steps for example, right?
6:06
It's like you know the the the trigger uh is the whatever the email, the app, etc.
6:14
It interacts with whatever emotional feeling that somebody is feeling at the time.
6:19
You then get an action, right? And we also had BF J.
6:25
Bogs models as well, which I know that you give credit in in your site in your book.
6:31
But the the thing that was cool on the workflows was the variety of variable rewards that it came up with and the way to vary the variable rewards is also really really interesting.
6:46
Oh, I'm so glad to hear that.
6:50
And and so the the anticipation uh it it it worked. That's great.
6:58
Yeah, it's been it's funny because sorry to interrupt, but the the just to inject here real quick, the book when I first wrote it, I wanted case studies of products that people knew.
7:07
So the case studies are, you know, the the social media products, the video game products, the stuff that people know, right?
7:14
Uh what's been fascinating is I've heard a lot of stories from people in industry who are making products that are enterprise products because you're exactly right.
7:23
Like if you need someone to use an enterprise SAS product, if they if you need an employee to use this dashboard to um uh come back to do whatever you need them to do on a daily basis habitually, it's the same exact model because human psychology doesn't change these four basic steps of a trigger, an action, a reward, and finally an investment.
7:42
And that's becoming even more important in the age of AI.
7:46
I I I when I wrote the book, uh I I could see what was coming.
7:48
And I I talked about, you know, we uh uh I didn't call it, you know, chat GPT, but I could see what was coming was this type of interface where the product gets better and better with use.
7:59
That's a key concept in this model. I call it stored value.
8:04
That that what we find is that products that create these habits. They don't depreciate.
8:09
Not like your clothing or your car or your couch loses value.
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They actually appreciate with use.
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the more you interact with them, the more data you give them, the more content you interact with, the more valuable they become.
8:21
And so that's really what this hook model does is that it transitions people from needing those external trigger, those annoying messages, those spammy notifications.
8:29
Eventually, you don't need that.
8:32
You are triggering people based on internal triggers.
8:35
They're triggering themselves.
8:35
And that's when you know a habit has really formed. Yeah.
8:39
And you know, one of the discussions that we had that I'd love your opinion on because we're just using it internally right now and we'll probably use it for the various verticals, Infinite Books, Infinite Media, Infinite Films, etc.
8:50
Uh, but like you know, we we really did kind of think like, is this a dualuse technology?
9:01
Um, you know, we know that our intentions are uh good and certainly we know uh from knowing you that your intentions are good, but we did worry a little bit about like, you know, Robin Hood is not a meditation app.
9:15
And you know, I I I I'm all for anything that can educate people.
9:23
Like for example, in my old field investing, young people really should start investing early, right?
9:31
Because they're time billionaires and yet they don't.
9:34
And you find ways to get them to do it by gamification. I'm not opposed to that.
9:39
But then like Robin Hood, I'm a little there because it it's not investing.
9:47
It's really more trading.
9:51
And I mean, what do you think?
9:51
Do you think that like these things are going to be increasingly used to maybe maybe uh get people that are maladaptive in their internal feelings like lonely or sad or whatever.
10:06
How do how do we solve that problem?
10:09
So this is a terrific question.
10:12
There's actually a chapter from the very first edition of the book, the very first publication which was uh titled the morality of manipulation where I lay out exactly the the the fear which I think has come to fruition uh that there is a real bifurcation out there of people who will allow their time and attention to be controlled and manipulated by others and people who stand up and say no I will take charge.
10:37
So the book really had these dual purposes of one uh helping product makers design good habits, right?
10:44
I think it's wonderful that my daughter learned how to play the guitar on YouTube.
10:48
I've never played I've never paid for a guitar lesson.
10:50
She learned how to play guitar. She learned how to code.
10:54
She learned so many amazing things through these technologies.
10:55
My dad has been on a streak on Dualingo for years now.
11:00
He's learning Hungarian through through Duolingo. It's fantastic.
11:03
Every day I go to the gym, I use Fitbot.
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never go and I'm in the best shape of my life at 47 years old.
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I I I can see my abs because I do these exercises habitually because of this amazing app that has helped me so much called FitBody that uses the hook model.
11:16
So all these examples that I just described are the application of these these habits for good.
11:20
Is there a potential downside?
11:22
Of course that the price of progress, the price of living in a world with so many good things in it is that guess what?
11:28
We have to learn new norms, new manners, new ways of being.
11:33
That's really what indistractable is all about.
11:35
It breaks down here as a consumer.
11:36
How do we make sure that we don't get distracted?
11:38
But of course, you know, this has always been with us.
11:40
Uh uh Plato talked about distraction 2500 years ago.
11:44
Distraction will always be a part of us.
11:46
Now, I do think if you are looking for distraction, it's easier than ever to find.
11:51
And so, I think it behooves us, it behooves us to teach our children how to become indistractible.
11:57
But as far as as Hooked is concerned, you know, Hooked was really written for the product makers.
12:00
And so I I kind of give this um this this framework which I think is is is a is is a good way of thinking about manipulation because manipulation remember is not in itself a bad thing.
12:11
You know we the term has kind of a negative connotation but I don't think it deserves it.
12:15
Manipulation we we actually if you think about it we pay for the privilege of being manipulated.
12:21
People want to be manipulated.
12:21
I'll give you a good example.
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When we go to the movie theater we know that that's a flickering screen of light right?
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That's not real people up there.
12:28
Uh, and the actors, even the ones we see, they're they're acting, right?
12:31
They're they're completely faking it.
12:33
They're totally manipulating us so that we'll tear up and we'll say, "Wow, what a great movie."
12:37
So, it's not that manipulation per se is bad.
12:39
It's about the context of how we are manipulating them.
12:43
So, there's two kinds of manipulation.
12:44
On one hand, we have what's called persuasion.
12:48
Persuasion is helping people do things that they themselves want to do.
12:52
The opposite of persuasion is coercion.
12:55
Getting people to do things they did not want to do. persuasion.
12:56
Not only is it ethical, we need more of it, right?
13:01
We need to help people lose weight and exercise and save money and do all these good things.
13:04
We want more persuasive technology.
13:06
What we don't want is coercion.
13:08
Not only because it's unethical, it's also bad business, right?
13:12
That if if someone uses your product and says, "Wait a minute, that was coercive.
13:16
I didn't want to do that."
13:18
Not only will they not do business with you anymore, they're going to tell everyone on social media not to do business with you anymore.
13:21
So I call this the regret test because the difference between persuasion and coercion is this one word regret that if the customer regrets using your product, you're not only ethically in the wrong, you're you've got a business problem because they won't come back.
13:36
So that that's really the the test we have to ask ourselves in the boardroom is is this something that the user if they knew what was being done to them, if they knew this tactic, would it help them or would it hurt them?
13:46
Would they would is this persuasion or is this coercion?
13:50
So, you don't have to name the company, but h has there been a company where you saw them using your techniques and you yourself kind of felt I got some regret that they're using that they're using my techniques for persuasion.
14:06
So, I I wish I could say that I came up with all these techniques.
14:08
I think I distilled them down.
14:10
I had the raw ingredients.
14:11
So, so when I see So, there's certain industries I won't work with.
14:15
I get calls all the time from them, but I won't work with alcohol.
14:17
I won't work with tobacco. I won't work with porn.
14:20
There's lots of industries uh gambling.
14:22
Uh there's lots of industries I won't work with uh who have known these techniques for quite a while.
14:26
I think one industry that makes me particularly cringe.
14:29
Uh it's not it's not the social media companies. I I I don't care.
14:34
And by the way, I didn't, you know, Facebook and Instagram, these these guys were using these techniques long before I came around.
14:40
The video game companies, you know, they they don't read my book. They know these tactics. Totally.
14:44
Um, and that's not what really bothers me because what people are wasting, so to speak, is their time. Yeah.
14:50
So, who am I to say that, oh, you know, spending time on YouTube videos or Tik Tok or Instagram is somehow morally inferior to watching golf on TV.
14:59
I don't know what the difference is.
15:02
And by the way, sports, spectator sports, uses the hook model in spades. Totally. T totally.
15:06
And yet, and yet nobody's saying, "Oh my god, we're all getting addicted.
15:10
It's rotting our brain that we're all watching sports.
15:13
We're all watching some stupid ball bouncing up and down a court or a pitch.
15:16
You know, who cares on the big picture of things?
15:18
Yeah, a lot of people care cuz it's fun and there's nothing wrong with it. Sports are wonderful.
15:21
Just like social media and video games are wonderful.
15:25
So, it's not really for us to judge in terms of how people spend their time.
15:28
What bothers me, what does make me cringe is how people spend their money.
15:33
So, I think that we have gone way too liberal on legalized gambling.
15:37
I think we are hurting the core of America.
15:41
We are rotting out the the core of America when it comes to how prevalent legalized online gambling has become.
15:48
I think that was a big mistake and I don't know how we got so distracted by how people spend their time on social media and we totally missed what I think is actually costing people billions of dollars of hard-earned cash which is legalized gambling.
16:05
I think I think we should we should not have regulate we should not have legalized that the way we I don't think we should frankly now that we see the consequences of legalizing drugs.
16:13
How come we are becoming so liberal when it comes to legalizing drugs?
16:14
Uh even though there are you know there's tons of of data that shows how harmful that can be.
16:21
And I'm not I'm not sure exactly you know how we regulated.
16:23
I can tell you what, when I walk around the streets of New York City and at 8:00 a. m.
16:26
I'm taking my daughter to something and I can't help but get these whiffs of pot as I'm walking the streets of Manhattan at 8 in the morning.
16:34
I think there's a problem, right?
16:36
We didn't do it the way that the Europeans did it.
16:37
You know, you go to Amsterdam, you don't smell pot.
16:41
It's in the They have those little coffee shops where people smoke and it's what they do in private behind closed doors.
16:45
Somehow in America, we just open the floodgates and uh to to products that actually are addictive, that actually are harmful.
16:52
And yet, you know, nobody's paying attention to what I think was was an over liberalization of potentially addictive and harmful and coercive products. Yeah.
17:00
Um I'm I I'm I'm still mostly for regulated legalization of drugs, but um I'm not for what you just described.
17:10
So, we're in agreement there.
17:13
Like I'm in New York all the time and I can attest that you are absolutely correct. It's gross.
17:18
that you really if you smoke a tobacco cigarette, oh my god, you're they kill you, they arrest you.
17:24
You smoke a joint, that's fine. Absolutely true.
17:26
And uh we were in Union Square and literally had to leave because we were getting high. It's disgusting. Yeah. In front of our kids.
17:38
It's it's and it's, you know, we we know we we've somehow swept this under the rug.
17:42
There are some severe consequences to these psychoactive drugs. And I agree.
17:46
I think I'm totally for legalizing pot, but there's a right way and a wrong way.
17:50
And I think we took our eye off the ball.
17:52
We we're saying, you know, people, everybody knows that social media is bad for your brain.
17:54
We know that cannabis is super bad for your brain.
17:58
And nobody somehow we're legalizing that.
18:00
I on social media, I wanted to get your thoughts on on the big change that Elon has made at Twitter.
18:07
Now, the one of the big changes was renaming it X.
18:10
Um, and it seems to uh have really radically altered user habits, breaking some of them entirely. What What do you think?
18:21
What do you think's up there?
18:22
And do you think uh smart or dumb? Which which changed? What What do you think?
18:27
Which like the um the uh the the bot explosion?
18:32
He he he one of the things that he said he was going to do was get rid of all the bots, right?
18:40
Um, and now one of my normal daily activities is when I look at my notifications blocking all of the bots who are targeted.
18:51
In my case, they all are for they're slinging you know, crypto or uh, you know, a this broker that I met has been fantastic and they all have zero followers and follow zero people.
19:03
Um but um the the the way that that has kind of interrupted the other one that really frankly kind of enrages me is the um uh de uh prioritizing any tweet with a leak a link in it.
19:23
And that was my that was my stock in trade, right?
19:25
like if I wanted to recommend your book, I would put the link uh to Amazon or wherever in the tweet saying it's a great book and that people should read it.
19:36
Um so just um just curious as to if you if you are watching what's going on over there.
19:46
Yeah, I I think he uh he knows what he's doing or at least he has clearly he knows what he's doing.
19:51
And I think the rationale is that, you know, of course he he wants to keep people on the platform.
19:56
He wants you to stay on Twitter and Twitter has a very specific audience type.
20:00
I think we forget that Twitter is not the real world.
20:03
I think Twitter is the least real world out of all the social media platforms.
20:07
I think LinkedIn is is pretty real world like real normal people are on LinkedIn.
20:11
Uh, Instagram a little bit less.
20:14
So, Twitter is like way over there.
20:17
The the the people who use Twitter are nerds and journalists.
20:22
And when I say nerds, I mean people who are obsessed with the topic.
20:27
They just can't get enough of that topic. Yeah.
20:28
And uh, in terms of the hook model, I mean, he's nailed it.
20:32
You know, trigger, action, reward, investment. He's killing it.
20:33
And so, what he's trying to do by removing uh, dep prioritizing links is that he doesn't want you to leave, right?
20:38
He wants you to keep scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and commenting and and uh uh flaming people and enraging people.
20:45
Uh that that works like and so and so I think that's what he's prioritizing.
20:51
Now the risk is and I think we've seen this is that uh a lot of people don't like it.
20:57
A lot of people that I would not say that Twitter is a mainstream product.
21:02
It's journalists and nerds and and so for most people uh it's not it doesn't have the kind of feeling that an Instagram has or that a LinkedIn has. It's not a safe space.
21:12
It's it's a dangerous place. It's a dumpster fire.
21:17
Now, some people like that type of rage, right?
21:20
They get, you know, people can get addicted to feeling that sensation.
21:25
Uh but for a lot of people, I I think that's a that's a that's not a mass market.
21:29
It's a certain type of audience.
21:32
Now, that's totally fine.
21:32
You know, the riches are in the niches.
21:33
I understand who he's going for.
21:35
Um, but I think it it does have a real risk of of uh of of disenfranchising certain people who just don't don't see it as as helpful.
21:46
Like, I I don't see it as helpful for my information diet.
21:47
I'm rarely on on Twitter these days other than very specific people that I'm looking to hear what they think.
21:53
Um, but you know, I think he's prioritizing a certain type of audience that frankly he is a part of.
21:59
Like I don't know if you've ever seen that graph where they took I think it was in the New York Times.
22:04
I can't remember where I saw it where they showed this heat map of when Elon tweets and it's it's un I don't understand it.
22:13
I I just don't get because he's tweeting all day and all night.
22:18
Like he's getting like three hours of sleep in between all his his tweets.
22:22
I I don't I don't get it.
22:22
But there's a certain type of person who does that and that is certainly not the majority of people. Yeah.
22:27
My guess is that those are most of those tweets are scheduled and that a lot of them also are not Elon himself posting that.
22:38
Uh I schedule a lot of tweets.
22:40
Um and so it looks like I'm there a lot more than I am.
22:43
Uh especially the but just the sheer volume. I mean Yeah. Yeah.
22:47
Don't worry about the time but like who some I'm guessing he had to come up with most of them.
22:54
I mean that's his whole thing, right?
22:55
Is have his own authentic connection to him. Yeah.
22:57
Um I think I I I personally think and maybe it's because I am a nerd.
23:02
Uh but um I I I thought even in the pre-Elon days I always thought that Twitter did have a shot at with a certain segment of the population like journalists as you mentioned, opinion leaders, you know, founders, entrepreneurs, etc.
23:19
that Twitter could emerge as a really really effective uh connection system uh almost global intelligence if you will.
23:30
Um and I found a lot of people who ended up coming to work for me at OSV on Twitter.
23:36
Um but that's it's it's like an introduction is the way I look at it.
23:40
Um and like if I see somebody that I like very much, I'll follow them.
23:45
I won't interact with them.
23:47
I'll just follow them and I'll see what they're putting out.
23:51
If they're putting out mostly signal and not noise, which is a minority of people, uh then and and I really like what they're doing, then I'll I'll privately me message them and say, "Hey, I'd love to chat with you."
24:07
Um and then of course the platform is fairly irrelevant.
24:10
Uh but it is not bad in in that regard for my specific thing.
24:16
Uh, I never thought about it as kind of the the niche.
24:18
And then it it makes me think like the other reason that I thought that he was buying Twitter was what a gold mine for data training AI models.
24:30
So XAI now has the keys to a lot of very interesting data.
24:36
But if you're right, you might not want to train an AI that on on things where everyone is like, I hate this, this, and this.
24:47
And well, the Yeah, the AI is definitely going to learn what pushes our buttons and and I didn't mean to disparrage the platform.
24:57
I think it's doing great.
24:58
Obviously, it serves its audiences. No. Yeah, I agree.
25:01
Um what what what do you think about can you scale this kind of thing?
25:07
And by that I mean could we have cities could we have industries?
25:12
Could we have institutions where you could use all of these techniques to make everyone and the city's a little crazy but let's make it an institution.
25:25
Like I I actually thought wow I maybe I'm gonna try this at Oshana Ventures.
25:31
Maybe I'm going to try to use all these tricks to get everybody kind of aligned and and doing that sort of thing.
25:35
Myself included by the way.
25:37
Um do you is is that possible or is this really a one to uh many or in the terms of your other book just for your own abbs?
25:45
No, I I think it's coming.
25:49
In fact, I presented at an AI conference a few weeks ago where I kind of presented this this vision for what AI could look like uh if it if it had a behavioral design lens.
26:01
And the the metaphor I like to give, you know, when people think of AI, you know, we we we know we're racing towards her, right?
26:07
We're going to have Scarlett Johansson in our ear telling us uh what we want to hear, whispering sweet nothings.
26:11
But I think that there's also a future where it's not Scarlett Johansson, it's Jiminy Cricut.
26:17
So you remember the movie Pinocchio? Sure. Of course.
26:21
And Jiminy Cricut represented our conscious. Yeah.
26:24
And so when it was I think there was a potential to train an AI when we have these babelish in our ear or I met with a company the other day who has these glasses that can tell you in real, you know, it sees everything you see.
26:36
So imagine a future where this block that has always existed for behavioral designers like myself, which is this behavior intention gap that I intend to do one thing but I don't do that behavior.
26:50
And the reason this happens is because even if I know what to do in that moment, it's too late.
26:57
So if I'm on a diet and I see this plate of French fries, I know I shouldn't eat it, but I'm going to anyway.
27:04
And so what AI could do it someday if it can hear everything you can hear, if it can see everything you can see, I envision a future where Jiminy Cricut says, "Wait a minute.
27:16
Before you eat those fries, just so you know, if you eat that plate of fly fries, I estimate it's going to be about 600 calories, which means you're going to be over your calorie surplus for the day."
27:25
So there could be a future where uh this AI helps between that.
27:29
So in in in Hooked I talk about the internal trigger that emotional need right that every product you use you use for one reason and that is to escape discomfort.
27:41
There's a big misunderstanding.
27:41
People think that we look for pleasure and avoid pain. That's not true.
27:44
Everything we do is about the the the appeasement of discomfort is escaping discomfort.
27:47
So if you can have an AI that's fast enough to know, okay, I know that you feel this way and I know you're going to get relief by doing this by doing this action.
27:59
I'm going to interrupt that before it happens with a choice, right?
28:04
By making you aware of a different option in that moment, right?
28:07
Now, that doesn't mean we always want to take that option, but at least we become aware of it.
28:13
At least we have kind of a another voice.
28:15
Maybe it's even our voice.
28:15
I could envision literally being trained on our own voice.
28:18
So, that voice in your head is supported by your own voice in your ear that says, "Hey, there's a better decision here."
28:25
you're having an argument with your wife as and as opposed to saying the wrong thing, the AI coach is is saying, "Hey, you know what?
28:32
Here's what would be a better course of action here to to to diffuse a situation."
28:36
So, there could be lots and lots of questions here. There's lots of doubts. I hear you, right?
28:40
Privacy concerns and data manipulation.
28:42
There's all kinds of concerns.
28:43
But there also could be if you did have a proprietary AI model that only you had access to that helped you be your better self and was designed with your intentions to persuade you, not coers you, but to persuade you to do the things that you want to do, it it could be a behavioral design superpower.
29:00
You you uh you are incredibly uh sympotico with our thinking.
29:06
uh sympotico with our thinking. uh and in fact one of our it's not even it's it's just drawing board right now uh but as I mentioned we we do have a full stack in in house of AI and that is one of the things that we are experimenting
29:25
with can we can we use the AI for that modification and you notice me and for th for those of you who are listening and and not watching I I did smile quite broadly when he said it could almost be your own voice because that was the first of our ideas was that it was your own voice. Uh, and it was saying, uh,
29:43
Uh, and it was saying, uh, Jim, you know, your line between in the battle between the dieter and the brownie, the brownie always wins, probably helped you sell your book, How to Retire Rich.
29:56
But that kind of got me thinking like why does the brownie always win?
30:00
And you've just articulated what that is.
30:02
If you could have that it and it's all about latency, right?
30:05
if you it's got to be there in time and so you're going to need some way for the AI to see those French fries uh etc.
30:14
But the other thing that I'm noticing is um I think that AI is going to also and this is a real contrary view.
30:26
People think it might make a lot of people dumber.
30:31
I actually think the opposite.
30:31
I think that the more people and just my own use, like I'll give you an example.
30:40
Last night, my wife and I were watching a show on TV and and there was a red barn and I looked at my wife and I said, "Why are barns red?"
30:46
And she goes, "I have no idea and I really don't care. You're weird."
30:52
So, I grabbed my phone and I put it into the AI. Why are barns red? And now I know.
30:58
And but it got me thinking, how many people are out there who don't ask questions cuz they don't want to appear dumb.
31:07
They don't want to appear like ill-informed or you don't know that, you know, they don't want to deal with any of that human reaction, right? Like, huh, what a dummy.
31:16
Um, but they're not going to get that reaction from the AI.
31:21
It's just going to give you the information.
31:23
And by the way, they're red because the early farmers in America used an iron oxide that they mixed in with with other things that turned that turned red.
31:35
But it also had a purpose.
31:37
It it it helped the wood not be invaded by mites, by termites, all of that, and sealed it against the weather.
31:44
And then also in the earliest days, a red barn stood out against the white snow, against the green trees, etc.
31:53
Now, of course, it's just Chesterton's fence.
31:57
We do it because we've always done it.
32:00
The wood of today doesn't need any of that stuff, but we've always been doing red barns, and now it's tradition, but there was a real reason for it back in the day. But I love those. Yeah, me too.
32:12
And but I I the more I talk to people, the more I see that a lot of people are in fact using AI this way.
32:21
They're asking it a bunch of questions that they never would ask.
32:26
uh and equally because we're going to get to um uh psychiatry and some of your critiques which I share your view so we're not going to probably have too much disagreement but um the I think AI is going to be uh a sleeper case is in therapy because people might not want to tell that psychiatrist or psychologist or whomever is sitting across from them.
32:54
They're they're the thing that they feel like really horribly awkward about and they're not going to probably have that uh problem with an AI.
33:05
Now, clearly, as you mentioned, lots of footnotes here.
33:12
It's going to have to be a private AI that, you know, can't be hackable, etc.
33:16
But I think that there's a lot of potential there as well. Absolutely. Yeah.
33:24
I think uh by the way I love those little trivia facts.
33:26
I go through a couple of those every day with my daughter like why is this? Why is that?
33:30
And it's it's it's I I totally agree with you.
33:32
I think there will be uh there already is I think a bifurcation.
33:35
Again I I love this Paul Verilio quote where he said when you invent the ship you invent the shipwreck.
33:41
There will be lots of shipwrecks.
33:43
And I think we're still waiting.
33:44
We know that the Hindenburg moment for AI is coming in the next few years.
33:48
There will be a disaster.
33:48
I promise you it's coming.
33:50
uh where we say how why how were we asleep at the wheel?
33:55
Something terrible will happen.
33:55
There's always that Hindenburg moment with with um every new technology. Yep.
33:58
Uh but of course there's going to be vastly good things that come out of it as well.
34:03
I think the risk is and I I don't know how to mitigate this on a societal level.
34:07
I can only think how to do it on a personal level.
34:10
There will be a lot of people left behind because we've already seen it.
34:14
I think I think television did this.
34:16
I think television created a culture of lonely, sad, overweight couch potatoes that uh that normalized unnatural behaviors. What do I mean by that?
34:31
I think the natural human condition is to be around a fire with our kin, telling stories, sharing our lives, working together, struggling together.
34:42
Now, thank God we don't have to do that.
34:44
to do that. we can sit in the warmth of our homes where we have food and we have uh you know we have safety we we have a lot of technological benefits that have made the standard of living better than ever in all of human history but I think what we lost was that we don't sit
34:57
around that fire we sit around the TV at least we used to now we don't sit around the TV we sit around our phones but that is a choice I think people who are uh you know gloom and doom chicken little type people uh make it sound like this is being done to you and I think that's a very intellect ually lazy position. It
35:13
It It's very easy to say, "Oh, this is you're being manipulated.
35:18
This is happening to you.
35:19
There's nothing you can do about it.
35:21
It's hijacking your brain."
35:23
You know, one of these tech critics likes to use the word hijacking.
35:26
And look, hijacking is what those bastards did to us on 9/11.
35:27
Hijacking is not playing Candy Crush.
35:30
It is not scrolling Facebook. That is not hijacking.
35:33
We have a choice if we believe we do.
35:36
And so the real battle that I I I really am fighting especially with my next book called beyond belief which is forthcoming is really about how do we instill this belief in our own agency.
35:47
How we have to believe that there's something you can do about it because when you believe you are powerless it's instantly true whether the technology is doing it to you or not.
35:56
Y instantly it's it's the truth because you don't try what's the point?
36:00
It's a foregone conclusion. They're addicting me.
36:05
They're hijacking my brain.
36:05
I have no agency here and that is incredibly toxic and I think that the people unfortunately I think it might be the majority of people default into that belief system and so no surprise they are manipulated and controlled by this technology whereas the few who say no no no this is a tool that I will use to my advantage those people are going to become wildly successful.
36:24
Yeah and again I I we are perfectly aligned.
36:27
I'm reading right now a book uh about William James.
36:31
It's called Six Souls, Healthy Minds, How William James Can Save Your Life.
36:36
And um I've always been interested in James because you know, the father of American pragmatism and everything.
36:43
What I I did not know much about the man himself.
36:46
I'd read all of his books, his formal, you know, books on on psychology and everything like that, but I hadn't read a lot about his personal history.
36:56
And literally he he came up with much of pragmatism to save himself because he looked at himself as kind of a sick soul during his 20s.
37:06
It was a kind of a disaster and he came from an extremely wealthy and highly literate and educated family in Boston.
37:18
And I I had no idea that when he was in when he was in his 20s, he truly contemplated suicide and that it was him because at the time uh determinism was the rage, right?
37:32
And you know, eugenetics were big departments at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc.
37:37
And like everything was like you have no free will, you can't do anything.
37:43
And he was like, "That's horrible to believe that."
37:51
But then he dug in and he said, "Okay, let me see if I can prove any of this stuff." Right?
37:57
And he talks extensively about the power of beliefs and what you said is exactly right.
38:03
If you believe you can't do it, you can't do it. Just period.
38:12
And so the the whole idea of it being much easier for people to slip into that learned helplessness, I'm delighted.
38:18
I'd love to get a a pre-copy uh of the book because you got it.
38:24
It sounds like it's right up my alley.
38:25
But the I I'm fascinated too because because of what you do, you also have a really deep domain knowledge in psychology, psychiatry, etc.
38:38
And and one of the things really caught my eye that you were talking about which was this turning diagnosis into identities and that is something that has been one of my growing irritations over maybe the last 10 years because what happens and I want your opinion on this but the way I see it is you turn a diagnosis into an identity and then diagnosis bias starts in right. Oh, you're a blank. Fill in the blank. It's a label.
39:12
So, it discourages thinking or or thinking, hey, maybe Jim isn't this, this, and this.
39:19
Maybe maybe that was just something else.
39:22
But when they look, oh, he's depressed or he's manic or whatever label you want to put on it, it just leads to, in my opinion, it it just limits us so much and and we're we're we're taking normal behaviors and we're path making them pathological.
39:44
Am I too extreme in this kind of irritation?
39:47
You know, the the the tricky thing is that this line of thinking um wins you no friends, right? And a lot of enemies. A lot of enemies.
40:00
You know, I've been speaking so something I I I I've much recently I've gone much deeper into psychiatry in general, but uh I know a lot about about ADHD and through, you know, through researching indistractible and there's a lot of fishy business going on with ADHD.
40:16
Um, the fact that 27% of American boys have an ADHD diagnosis. Insane. How can that be?
40:25
How could that possibly be?
40:28
I mean, I And I think what So, I started talking about this and I was on a few prominent podcasts and uh I wasn't even making I wasn't pointing fingers.
40:39
I was I was asking the question of something's fishy here.
40:43
I don't I haven't figured it out.
40:44
At that point, I didn't figure it out.
40:45
And I just I just raised the concern and the amount of vitil amount of hatred from how dare you my son is this and my kid is that and you know you don't know what you're talking about.
40:59
And I didn't even say anything.
41:00
I just said that seems crazy especially when we know that this isn't a worldwide phenomenon.
41:05
This is an American problem, right?
41:06
10% of US kids, 1% of European kids. Yep. What's going on?
41:11
There's something happening.
41:11
And I think the reason is because people do exactly as you said, they make their diagnosis into their identity.
41:19
They they become that label.
41:22
That is who I am because it's incredibly comforting, right?
41:27
To have and I I understand it and there is a time and a place for it when you are struggling with something to have that label to say this is why gives you some relief, right?
41:36
Because now you can you have a path to say why things are not your fault. so to speak.
41:42
And I don't think it's your fault.
41:44
Whatever struggle you have, well look, you you you know, even when you really mess up, is it your fault? Who knows?
41:49
We don't even know free will is a real thing.
41:53
That's a whole another discussion.
41:53
Let's say it's not your fault.
41:54
Even if it's not, you have a diagnosis, you have a condition, you have this, you have that.
41:59
It's not your fault, but it is your responsibility because who else's responsibility is it going to be?
42:05
And so my big contention is that pills don't teach skills.
42:07
That we have become so reliant on whatever the pharmaceutical industry shoves in our face that we take a child, you know, sometimes under 10 years old, six, seven, eight years old and the child is behaving like a child. Exactly.
42:22
They don't I mean I I have a di I have ADHD apparently.
42:29
You know, I took I took a I met with a psychiatrist. I took the evaluation. I did all the tests.
42:32
I have ADHD and let me tell you, I definitely had ADHD as a kid.
42:37
Now, I don't really believe I have anything wrong with me.
42:41
Let me be very clear, right?
42:41
I'm just saying it's so easy to get a diagnosis because people think, oh, ADHD, it's it's a blood test. It's a it's a fMRI scan.
42:48
You can see in your No, you check a few boxes.
42:51
Does this person exhibit X amount of these symptoms out of this list?
42:55
If so, boom, you have a diagnosis.
42:58
So, when I tell people, look, I can cure your ADHD. No, impossible.
43:00
It's a lifelong condition because that's what we've been shoved down our throats. This is just who I am. It's incurable. No.
43:04
If I have these list of factors and six out of 10 makes you ADHD and then I you take the test again and now you don't exhibit six out of those 10. Voila.
43:14
So why would we not want to start with non-farmaceutical interventions?
43:20
We know every pill has a side effect, right?
43:24
There's always some kind of side effect.
43:25
Let alone if we are taking methamphetamines and we are stuffing them into our children's faces.
43:29
Of course they're going to have side effects.
43:32
Not only physiological, but also psychological.
43:33
If a kid learns, oh, for me to perform, I have to pop a pill.
43:39
You think that doesn't have psychological consequences? Of course it does. Yeah. Huge.
43:41
And not that there there there is definitely a place.
43:43
I'm not saying don't take medication. I'm not a doctor.
43:46
I'm not giving you medical advice.
43:47
There is definitely a place for for medication.
43:49
But it can't be at these levels.
43:52
It doesn't make any sense for when you go for a diagnosis, the the doctor says after the first visit, here here's a pill.
43:57
No, let's try the non-farmaceutical interventions.
43:59
Teach your kid how to be indistractible.
44:01
And then if that doesn't work, if then you've exhausted all other non-farmaceutical interventions, okay, now let's look at at at some other some potential drugs.
44:10
But I think I think we we have just become so hair triggered to easy solutions. Give me a pill. Give me a pill.
44:17
As opposed to wait a minute, there's some old-fashioned solutions. Scheduling your time.
44:20
Uh planning out what you're going to do with your day, turning off notifications.
44:24
This isn't rocket science stuff.
44:26
And there's a way to do this that avoids all these negative consequences.
44:30
So that's my my big picture analysis. Yeah.
44:32
Um I and I and I also like your clarification of that, you know, the the person feels better too often.
44:41
Uh you know, I finally figured out what's wrong with me. And then not my fault.
44:47
I think you're absolutely right in that too.
44:49
I I tend to be a little more hardcore in that regard.
44:53
I kind of I at a young age I just decided you know what um if I'm going to found the company I'm going to run the company everything is my fault because like I hired that guy who screwed up you know yeah he screwed up and it wasn't me who screwed up but ultimately you know Harry Truman the buck stops here and it it certainly has has helped me in the companies that I've run um and and so you mentioned and free will.
45:23
That was a huge part of James, right?
45:25
He believed deeply that he had free will.
45:28
And so he said, "It's not enough for me to believe it, though.
45:33
I've got to show it through my action.
45:36
I've got to show that I have free will."
45:39
And so he he came up with all these things to show that you want to see my free will, I'll show it to you. Right?
45:47
and and and in a way it's like it it seems to me to be a debate.
45:50
Um it's a bit like the the medieval theologians who wanted to spend all of their time arguing how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.
46:00
Like to understand if we have free will like I'm I'm all for data, right?
46:07
And yet we don't even have a good working uh definition of consciousness quite yet.
46:11
We don't know why anesthesia works really.
46:17
And and so rather than than stew about it and come to my own conclusion, I've just come to the idea that well the outcomes of my believing in free will are really good. Most of the time. Most of the time, right? Sometimes they suck.
46:34
Like when I do something really stupid and I've got to say, "Well, nope. That was me.
46:38
I did do that of my own free will.
46:43
uh but on balance they they are very very helpful right because they lead to agency they lead to uh you know honoring your work they lead to a lot of good outcomes right right um yeah that that's I totally agree with you and I hear this debate a lot and I've kind of like gotten tired of it of the free will
47:02
debate and there is you know there's a nerdy like you look at the details of oh my gosh the brain is re making a judgment before you do there's there's lots of interesting little data points but it's kind of it's a little of intellectual masturbation because whether or not we have free will doesn't change the fact that we have free choice. Bingo. And that's what I'm more Bingo.
47:18
And that's what I'm more interested in.
47:21
We definitely have free choice because it depends how you define will.
47:25
You can make free will become anything you want it to become.
47:27
You know, there's no good definition of that.
47:29
We definitely have free choice.
47:32
And so we have and and by the way this is actually what I've discovered with my new book is that even if you do have things that make your life difficult systematic oppression poverty uh gender issues in inequality there's all these issues.
47:48
What we find is across the board is that people who have an internal locus of control even when they don't deserve to have that.
47:56
So there's this concept in psychology internal versus external locus of control.
47:59
I'm sure you understand it. Yeah.
48:00
Uh and it turns out that those people who have an internal locus of control, even when they have every good reason to say, "I'm disadvantaged because of my brain, because of this, because of that, even when they deserve to say it's not my fault."
48:15
Those people who have an internal locus of control do better in every imaginable metric.
48:18
They have more friends, they're they're more wealthy, they're healthier, they live longer.
48:24
Everything is better for those people when they believe that they have personal agency. So that's it, right?
48:30
Like at the end of the day, you have to believe that you have a lot of personal agency and act like it.
48:34
Uh because the alternative sucks.
48:36
It's it just makes you feel good.
48:38
It's just this temporary uh seditive that lulls you into not having to do very much and go play video games and watch TV. Yeah.
48:45
And I I think that's a great way I I'm stealing the we all have free choice from you. I love that.
48:52
Um just just give me a quote there. Absolutely. Absolutely.
48:54
Um, and and you know, you also see it in like the the you know, everyone clutching their pearls and you know, setting their hair on fire about, oh, it's social media that's killing our kids.
49:08
It's phones that are killing our kids.
49:10
And and I think we agree that that's probably not what's doing it. Um, what do you think?
49:18
Yeah, I I couldn't agree more.
49:20
In fact, I I just published an article a few weeks ago uh that was an excerpt from my book uh from indistractable and then kind of elaborated on it.
49:26
How I do think and this is why where social sciences are very hard to to to put the pieces together because I do think that there are effects to using social media especially for children.
49:38
Uh however, we don't quite understand the causal effects.
49:44
There's for sure all kinds of correlation.
49:45
We know that when kids use uh any form of media to excess, there is correlation with with bad outcomes, right?
49:54
But I would argue that happens with every form of media.
49:56
If you're watching four hours of television, if you're reading Harry Potter, my daughter used to be super into Harry Potter. You know what?
50:03
As for both of right, that's too much Harry Potter.
50:06
You need to go out and do something else.
50:07
And so what we're finding more and more is that the causal relationship is in reverse.
50:12
that it's the children who have a difficult home life situation.
50:18
It's the children who are struggling with other things in their life that they are using social media, technology, video games to excess to escape what is happening in their life.
50:28
And that's why it's so important to me the biggest revelation of hooked and then I carried it into indistractible was this idea of the internal trigger that that everything you do you are doing out of the desire to escape discomfort.
50:39
Even the desire to feel good, right?
50:41
Parents think that oh kids are playing video games so much because they like them.
50:44
No, it's because they are escaping discomfort of some kind, right?
50:48
Even the craving of and wanting and lusting and desiring of wanting to play is itself psychologically destabilizing.
50:54
So we have what's called the needs displacement hypothesis.
50:58
When you have psychological needs that are not meant are not met in the real world, you will look for satisfaction of those needs in the virtual world.
51:10
And what are those psychological needs?
51:12
This is 50-year-old research.
51:14
The self-determination theory tells us that every human being on the face of the earth needs autonomy, uh, competency, and relatedness. This is old stuff.
51:22
Every psychologist knows about self-determination theory.
51:23
But when you look at children today, they are starved of these three psychological nutrients. Starting with autonomy.
51:30
You know, there's only one place in civilization that you can tell some someone where to go, what to think, what to eat, who to be friends with, and that's that's prison.
51:42
And the other place is school. Right.
51:45
These just these two places where when you put people in cages, they act like animals. Yeah.
51:50
And so, is it any any surprise that children behave the way they do?
51:54
You know, in the Western world, we have this myth of the teenage brain.
51:57
I always hear pe people saying, "Oh, my teenager has hormones and this and that."
52:01
You know, in in pre-industrialized societies, there's no such thing as a rebellious teenager.
52:06
It's a complete invention of the industrialized world. You know why?
52:09
Because we tell kids what to do all day. And that is not natural.
52:12
Kids, our DNA uh our our psychological nutrients require us to have personal autonomy.
52:21
But when we are told what to do all day long and you look at the research, look at the work of Peter Gray for example.
52:26
We know that children today have more regulations placed on them than an active duty service member, right?
52:30
They have more rules placed on them than someone who's in the army. Wow.
52:33
And so it's no surprise they want autonomy.
52:37
Well, where do they find that autonomy?
52:38
Where do they find freedom?
52:38
We used to hang out in the neighborhood.
52:40
They don't do that anymore.
52:41
Now they go to play video games because that's all parents will let them do because we're so scared of stranger danger and you can't let your kid outside even though it's the safest time in American history to be a kid.
52:52
What other choices do they have?
52:54
And so I think that excessive social media use, excessive technology use is downstream of these other consequences.
53:02
It's exactly it's a symptom of the greater disease. Yeah.
53:03
I uh you know we we were talking about that um just the other night.
53:09
uh people who are of my generation like we were truly free range like right bye mom, bye dad, I'll be back for dinner and like the rest of the day was literally ours and um you know there's a great Dylan Thomas poem about that kind of childhood.
53:29
I can't remember the title of it, but it's under the something tree.
53:32
And and the entire poem is just lovely because it's just this kid out playing out with his friends just doing simple things, but that the autonomy is what they had.
53:43
What I had quite frankly and that which is what kids still crave today. It was amazing.
53:51
People say, "Oh, yeah, but kids don't want to do that anymore." Are you sure? Yeah.
53:55
When I you know, look, my my kid loves technology just like anyone else. She's 16 years old.
53:58
But what's amazing is when her friends come over and they have something to do, they always choose to do that. Yep. Right.
54:05
And and even actually even playing No, no, but they want to play video games. But you know what?
54:11
If kids are playing together, that's fine, right?
54:13
There's nothing wrong with that. That's great.
54:14
Of course, there's a good mix of different activities, but it's amazing.
54:17
I think it's because we hypers schedule our kids because they're test prepping and the the Mandarin lessons and the swimming and the ballet.
54:25
They have no time to do what we did, which is just to hang out and to just be kids.
54:30
No, we have to constantly observe them and tell them what to do all day.
54:33
And I think that that really backfires. Yeah, I agree.
54:34
Uh we one of the CEOs of one of our uh portfolio companies um was talking about he has young kids and um he he had like we were talking about ADHD earlier.
54:49
both of his boys, they're both boys, uh were um diagnosed ADHD, and he was like, you know, maybe I'm just going to let them first thing in the morning go out and play in the yard, do whatever they want.
55:06
They can do whatever they want, just as long as they're outside in the yard.
55:11
There's a swing set, there's stuff to do, there's all that. And guess what happened?
55:15
like all of a sudden the a the ADHD vanished.
55:19
It was gone because of what you're saying. I I I totally agree.
55:27
Um there's a big part of that. Yeah. Yeah.
55:29
And by the way, I think there is hope.
55:31
I think you know we were talking about AI earlier.
55:32
Uh so we homeschooled my daughter and uh it it bore amazing fruit.
55:38
I mean she she's really I'd love for you to meet her someday.
55:42
She's she's super well adjusted. She's super mature.
55:43
She's just she's my friend.
55:45
Like she's not even I don't know what people talk about like teenage rebelliousness.
55:47
My like my kids second to my wife, my my best friend. She's fantastic. Yeah.
55:52
And I I think part of it was because she had this this education that she led, right?
55:57
They're talking back to autonomy.
55:59
It wasn't a teacher saying, "Hey, guess what?
56:02
You're going to sit here in my classroom and I'm going to lecture at you and you're going to do what I tell you to do."
56:06
She knew she wanted to get these uh these these um rigorous studies under her belt, but it was her direction. It was her pacing.
56:15
It was her deciding what direction she was going to go.
56:17
And I think they made all the difference.
56:18
So my dream is that someday there, you know, if we have institutionalized education, it's a a guidance counselor who is uh administering a room full of of screens and kids who are able to communicate with an AI who can pace at their own pace.
56:35
They're not being judged by their peers.
56:37
Oh, you're too smart or you're too stupid or you're a nerd or you're this.
56:40
You can pace at whatever pace you want in subjects you're interested in to to go where you dream of going.
56:45
And I think that that inspires me.
56:48
I think we we're not that far away from such a future.
56:49
I hope I I totally agree. It's so funny.
56:52
We are very sympotico because we think the opportunities in that type of education are enormous.
57:00
And like one of the or many many studies of like the how do you get the best educated humans in the world and most of them were through tutorials.
57:10
In other words, they had a tutor and they were allowed to kind of no you know what I'd really like to read is this and then the tutor would be great.
57:19
Let's read it together and let's go over it and boy that sounds like a great job for AI, right? Totally.
57:27
right? Totally. and and in addition to that the AI trains on the student himself or herself and so they they understand in much the same way you know that we all have different communication styles the majority of people are visual
57:42
but a lot of people are auditory a lot of people are kinesthetic and so the AI immediately picks that up and so you don't say to somebody who's a kinesthetic which is feelings right you don't say can you see the big picture no but they know how they feel? How does
57:56
How does that make you feel?
57:58
Or to an auditory person, you say, "Can you see the big picture?"
58:03
No, but they can hear the bell ring.
58:05
And so AI just seamlessly is able to put it in their communicate their preferred communication style.
58:11
It's just I'm I'm incredibly bullish on it and uh a lot of these techniques.
58:18
Well, and it's it's interesting how we think that technology is whatever's new and somehow whatever existed when you were around is is the way it's always been. That's not true, right?
58:29
Public education, the way we think of it, Horus man, what is that like 150 years old?
58:32
If you look at like you said, all the greats Mozart didn't go to public school like uh uh Newton, they were all tutored.
58:40
And so, if we can bring that that that's actually the origin, right?
58:43
That's that's the older way of doing things.
58:45
That's the way we used to do it.
58:47
not here sit in this classroom and learn this boring topic that trains you to be a worker in a factory.
58:51
No, like to work with your mind.
58:53
It needs to be self-directed.
58:53
I think that's that's something that we've and you know several generations of children.
58:59
We we have wasted these minds because of how painful this this stuffing information into your brain just so you could barf it out on an exam and that's supposed to prove that you're educated. No.
59:09
And and I I succeeded, right? I went to Stanford.
59:11
I I know how this game works.
59:13
And I will tell I'll be the first to tell you that's a stupid system. It's an outdated system. Yeah.
59:20
And uh designed to keep people placit in a room following instructions for eight hours. Hm.
59:26
Where else are they going to do that?
59:28
On a factory floor, right? Yeah.
59:31
And so for for the objectives, if we were going to be geeky AI people, we would say they maximize the objective function for compliance and willingness to be placid in a room for 8 hours.
59:42
That is not the normal human condition.
59:46
And it's certainly not the normal human condition for children. That's right.
59:53
And when they don't conform, oh, they're broken.
59:55
Their brains are messed up.
59:55
No, the system is broken. Exactly. Exactly.
1:00:00
Well, this has been so much fun.
1:00:00
I always have a great time chatting with you.
1:00:04
When does the new book come out? Uh, good question. Early 2026. Fingers crossed. I have to finish it. Almost done.
1:00:13
Well, we will certainly have you back on to talk about the new book when that one comes out. Um, thank you.
1:00:17
And, uh, really, really great.
1:00:21
It was really fun for me to reread uh, both of these and also get the input from my somewhat geeky AI people.
1:00:28
They're like, "hm, yes, of course we can turn this into a workflow.
1:00:35
Yeah, I'd love to see more of that.
1:00:36
Actually, now I'm super curious.
1:00:36
Let me know when when we get it to a point where where it isn't continually breaking, we will definitely give you a a a show of the tech."
1:00:44
Well, if you recall our last time, we do have one final question, which you get a you get another crack at it.
1:00:52
You get another bite at the apple.
1:00:54
And that is, we're going to wave this wand and we're going to make you the emperor of the world. You can't kill anyone.
1:00:59
You can't put anyone in a re-education camp.
1:01:02
But what you can do is we're going to hand you that magical microphone that's going to feed into the earworm that is that everyone is now wearing because they're the latest thing.
1:01:14
Um, and you can incept two things in the world's population.
1:01:21
They're going to wake up the next morning, whenever their morning is, and they're going to say, "I've just had two of the best ideas, and unlike all the other times, I'm actually going to act on these two ideas."
1:01:32
What two things are you going to incept in the world to make it a better place for all of us? Yeah.
1:01:43
So, I think uh the first because I've been working on on this for for many months now.
1:01:48
this for for many months now. uh many years actually five years in the making is to believe in your own agency and the the the the most important part there is the belief that I think we way way underestimate how important beliefs are
1:02:07
to our well-being to our physical health uh to our our contribution to the community uh choosing your beliefs to serve you is incredibly important uh I don't think I don't think we assess that enough because we we kind of get our beliefs handed to us, right? We believe
1:02:22
We believe whatever our parents believe.
1:02:23
We we are the nationality of whatever we country we just happen to be born into and our belief systems are shaped on that.
1:02:29
So I think I think incepting the idea that you have the power to choose your beliefs that beliefs are not facts, they're not faith.
1:02:36
Beliefs are something that you have a choice over.
1:02:38
So that's that's number one. Fabulous.
1:02:40
And the second one would be that uh this is kind of comes out of my work with indistractable that the antidote to impulsiveness is forethought.
1:02:49
The antidote to impulsiveness is forethought.
1:02:53
That when we look at so many of the things that keep ourselves down, almost all of them are impulse control issues. Right?
1:02:59
When it comes to distraction, when it comes to uh saying something we shouldn't have said, procrastination, whatever, all these these things that we later look back with regret, they're almost always impulse control issues, right?
1:03:10
We knew what to do, but we didn't exactly do the right thing in the moment.
1:03:13
We said the wrong thing, we did the wrong thing, we ate the wrong thing.
1:03:16
That tends to be what we look back and regret.
1:03:18
And so the antidote to impulsiveness, the reason we do all these things is just impulsiveness, right?
1:03:24
We in the moment we made the wrong choice.
1:03:26
The antidote to impulsiveness is forethought.
1:03:28
That if you leave it to the last minute, right?
1:03:32
If if you're on a diet, but the chocolate cake is on it on the fork on the way to your mouth, you're going to eat it.
1:03:36
If you're trying to quit smoking, but the cigarettes in your hand, you're going to smoke it.
1:03:39
If you are uh if you sleep next to your cell phone and uh it's the first thing you wake up and pick up in the morning before you even say hello to your loved one, it's too late. They got you. You lost.
1:03:48
But if you plan ahead, the antidote to impulsiveness is forethought.
1:03:52
If you use forethought, if you plan ahead, there's no distraction you can't overcome tomorrow as long as you plan for it today.
1:03:58
I absolutely endorse and love both of those.
1:04:01
Uh I I I could not actually more wholeheartedly agree.
1:04:09
It's been absolutely a delight to chat with you as always and I look forward to the new book and our next chat. Thanks so much, Jim.
1:04:18
It was a pleasure as always. All right. Cheers. Thanks.