it just seems to me that we really are in an attention deficit disorder stage for society as a whole I think the world is really bifurcating into people who decide what they will do with their time and attention and people whose time and attention is manipulated and controlled
by others the to-do list turns out to be one of the worst things you can do for your personal productivity if you're constantly telling yourself look at all these things I haven't done you start thinking you're a loser you start thinking you're bad at this the right
metric of Success is Not how much did I finish how many cute boxes did I check off rather the metric of success is did I do what I said I was going to do for as long as I said I would without distraction I guarantee you this is a symptom not the cause well hello everyone it's Jim oan
with another infinite Loops I'm delighted with tonight's guest near a all who is an author of two incredible books both of which I've actually read so this should actually be fun uh the older of the two books is hooked how to build habit forming products and your new book or newest book is
indestructible how to control your attention and choose your life you also were a lecturer at Stanford Graduate School and I love that you say you have two degrees one from the school of ardox and you know another one an MBA from Sanford n welcome thank you so much Jim great to be here
with you well it's great to have you on I loved your books I love the second one because it just seems to me that we really are in a an attention deficit disorder stage for society as a whole the the amount of distractions that people are letting interfere with doing
deeper work letting kind of almost control their lives I just you know I don't know whether you ever saw it but there was a great a photographic piece published in the New York Times magazine and it was literally a series of photographs of people staring at their iPhones but the
photographer digitally removed the iPhone and and and so I mean it was really just wild to look at because it it kind of made him look kind of zombie like yeah what what are we all staring at what are we doing was you know and as you as you look at it it's just kind of like wow but you know you say that if
this Century the 21st century has a superpower it is the ability to be you know indestructible let's talk about that for a bit absolutely yeah you know it's it's funny so I wrote the book right before covid and it was was published right before covid and uh I I I think it's
only become more important I thought it was important back then and but now I think the world has become more distracting I mean you right now we're sitting here in Late July of 2024 so uh it's a very it's a very uncertain time right what's happening with the elections and the economy and you know
there there there's always something but I think now it's particularly uh there's there's something happening every day between the assassination attempt and uh Joe Biden dropping out and I think now I think we we find that it's even more difficult to pay attention to what you
say you're going to pay attention to rather than what the media wants you to pay attention to and that's only going to continue that trend is only going in One Direction right as Society improves as we have more options more choices more things to do with our time and attention I think the world is really
bifurcating into people who decide what they will do with their time and attention and people whose time and attention is manipulated and controlled by others so if you are not indistractable if you don't teach your kids how to be indistractable you are going to be part of these masses that
are just you know manipulated to to pay attention to what other what other people want you to pay attention to so what I want to help people do is not necessarily to dictate oh social media bad social media good do this do that exercise more do do do what I say you
should do no no no I want to help people do what they say they want to do right whatever it is that you say with your intention is how you want to spend your time that's what I want to help you accomplish that's what what being indistractable is all about yeah and there's there's some character traits or
habits maybe that uh I think kind of fit in with it like I sort of think of a low agency person being highly distractable and a high agency person being less distractable I I I hate to make everything a dichotomy because nothing is right but one of the things like uh
before I even read your book I I had noticed that you know I was getting distracted and so I kind of got a little crazy and I said okay not going watch any more TV and I'm going to do that for just a you know because I will occasionally want to watch a movie or something but I did like a three-month
period where I just didn't watch any TV at all I stopped watching television news I think 15 years ago because talk about distractions right yeah and and and so and I also do one other thing that I wanted your opinion on I I I got you know the famous quote the biggest
problem with mankind is uh we can't sit in a room alone for 20 minutes or 10 minutes or whatever he said so I started doing that I started literally sitting for 20 minutes with nothing no music no phone no book no Compu just nothing literally and that was like amazing it at first I was
like but but the the more I did it the the more it happened but you have lot L of very practical pointers in the book for hey here's what you've got to do so if you don't mind take us through some of those absolutely absolutely so let's start with what is distraction right I'm
kind of a word nerd let's let's define our terms here so I was fascinating to find that uh you know what the real origin of the word distraction and and the best way to understand what distraction is is to understand what distraction is not what's the opposite what's the antonym so most people will
tell you the opposite of distraction is focus but that's not exactly right in fact if you look at the origin of the word the opposite of distraction is not focus the opposite of distraction is traction of course it is right they're opposite traction and distraction they
both come from the same Latin root trahar which means to pull and they both end in the same word they both end in action right traction and distraction all end in the word action reminding us that distraction is not something that happens to us it is an action that we ourselves take so traction is any action
that pulls you towards what you said you were going to do things that move you towards your values things that help you become the kind of person you want to become those are acts of traction the opposite of traction distraction is any action that pulls you away from what you
plan to do further away from your goals further away from your values further away from becoming the kind of person you want to become so this isn't just semantics this is really really important because I would argue as Dorothy Parker said the time you plan to waste is not wasted time so I think the
knee-jerk reaction that people have when it comes to distraction is to just cut out what they believe is the source of the distraction right stop using social media stop watching TV stop doing this stop doing that and I think that's going I I don't think that really recognizes
as the source of the problem and so we're excising things from our life that can actually make our lives more fun there's nothing wrong with watching TV if that's what you want to do there's nothing wrong with playing video games there's nothing wrong with the social
media if it's what you plan to do according to your values and your schedule not someone else's so I think that this um uh Chicken Little sky is falling type of mentality of oh all new tech is bad for you it's melting your brain it's addicting everybody it's very shortsighted it's not scientifically
based and it's it's basically spoused by professors who have tenure telling people stop using social media stop checking email well thanks you have tenure but most people are going to get fired from their jobs if they just disconnect and stop using these Technologies so it's not very practical
advice and it's unnecessary more so it's actually a mirage so you I read I only write books when I I read everyone else's Book on a topic and I find that it doesn't solve my problem so when I found like you that I was getting distracted I read everybody's book on
the topic I tried what they had to say about about this and most of the advice was just disconnect just stop using these tools the tools are evil so I did that I got myself a flip phone from Alibaba you know the kind we used to use in the 1990s no internet connection no apps I got myself a word processor all I
did was type and then you had to like physically connect it with a cable to to download and I thought okay well I've got no internet no apps I'm not going to get distracted I can I can just focus on what I say I'm going to do and yet when I would sit down on my desk I'd say oh
look there's that that book on my shelf I've been meaning to finish or you know my my desk needs a little tidying up or let me just take out the trash and I kept getting distracted because the ultimate source of the problem was not the things outside of me it was what was
going on in my own head so we talked about traction and distraction now we need to talk about the triggers the common uh the the the the usual suspect that people think is the source of the problem or what we call the external triggers the pings the dings the Rings all these things in our outside
environment those are called external triggers but studies find that only 10% of the time that you check your phone is it because of an external trigger only 10% so what's the other 90% the other 90% of the time that we check our phones it's because of an internal trigger what
is an internal trigger an internal trigger is an uncomfortable emotional state that we seek to escape boredom loneliness fatigue uncertainty anxiety that is a source of 90% of our distractions and I think this is where I take a very different approach from most advice out there is that I believe that
we have to begin with the source of the problem that whether it's too much news too much booze too much football too much Facebook you are always going to get distracted from one thing or another unless you know the real cause of the problem that distraction it's not a
moral failing it's not a character flaw you probably don't have any kind of diagnosis or disease that you need you know you're not broken in any way for the vast majority of people it's simply that we haven't learned how to deal with discomfort in a healthy way that leads
this towards traction rather than trying to escape with distraction so step number one here's the four-part model step number one is Master the internal triggers if you don't Master the internal triggers they will become your master we have to learn techniques and there's oh a dozen in the book that you
can use so that you have that tool in your toolkit ready to go whenever you feel that emotional discomfort and most people just don't have those tools they look for external things right let me drink it away let me click it away let me scroll it away as opposed to dealing
with the root cause of the problem step two is to make time for traction that you can't say you got distracted unless you know what it distracted you from so we talk about some very basic but some incredibly helpful techniques like time boxing which it turns out eats the
traditional to-do the traditional time management technique of to-do list for breakfast right the to-do list turns out to be one of the worst things you can do for a personal productivity we can talk about why that is and the third step is to hack back the external triggers not
just the pings and dings but also stupid meetings that we didn't need to attend that are nothing more than distractions emails that didn't need to be sent and received we can hack back every single one of those external triggers and then finally the last step is to prevent
distraction with acts which are this firewall against distraction and when we do these four strategies in concert anyone can become indistractable I love the uh you know my six years of Latin I did kind of catch that on the uh traction the function of of action um and I wonder also like you I I don't uh
uh concur with a lot of the academics who are saying all the new tech is evil don't use it turn off social media uh I think actually it can be quite um uh educational and edifying and all those things meet I've used social media to meet a huge network of people many of the people who work for me I met
literally on social media so I agree that getting the getting the problem defined right is absolutely critical what do you think um I was struck by what you said just a moment ago about the the to-do list like the to-do list is the class that everyone you know you got to get
organized you got to do your to-do list let's talk about why that is not such a great way to try to proceed sure sure well you know for me I really start from first principles and I really wanted to go look at the academic research and I found that there wasn't actually that
much good research about why to-do lists are this magical solution for our time management problems and and so let me let me tell you why there's a few problems with the to-do list now let me be very clear there's nothing wrong with getting things out of your brain and putting on a piece of paper in an app
that's great but most people stop there and then they wake up in the morning and they say oh what should I do with my day let me look at my to-do list and my to-do list will tell me what to do and if that's what you do you've already lost right the the the war you've waged
is lost it it's too late because to-do lists have a few fundamental flaws number one there's no constraint with a to-do list to-do list can go on and on and on and on and on there's no bottom there's no end and so what happens is we keep adding things to our to-do list so that the result of all that hard work we
come back from a hard day of work we we come home we look at our to-do list for one last time and we see there's still a million things we haven't done so what does that do to our psyche if day after day week after week month after month year after year we look at this list of
things that we haven't accomplished because there's no constraint to it so what do we say to ourselves oh I must not be very good at time management I must have a short attention span we start making up all these cockamamy excuses about why somehow we're broken it's not that we're broken it's this
stupid time management technique that's broken right because if if you're constantly telling yourself look at all these things I haven't done you start thinking you're a loser you start thinking you're bad at this and that's not true it's a technique that's broken so that's the biggest problem is that
they don't have constraints and so that leads to another sec a few second order problems another one is that there's no feedback loop so when here's what typically happens with someone who uses a to-do list they say okay let me start working on this task by the way what do
people start working on when they have a to-do list do they they work on the most important thing no they work on the easy thing they work on the Urgent thing they don't work on the most important thing so that's that's another big problem with to-do list but then let's get back
to this feedback loop problem when people work on a on an item on a to-do list they'll pick something say okay I'm G to start working on that here I go I'm working on it okay here I go but you know what uh let me just check email for a quick minute just to make sure nothing
urgent is happening or or let me just get a quick cup of coffee and oh Janet's at the water cooler and what's going on oh wait what am I working on again right so it turns out we have what's called the planning fallacy the planning fallacy told tells us that on average a
task will take you three times longer than you think it will because people have no idea how long things take them because they work on them in five minute Sprints and they're constantly distracted by Every Which every other thing that they could do as opposed to a much better technique is called time
boxing and this uses a psychological term called an setting an implementation intention which is just a fancy way of saying planning out what you're going to do and when you're going to do it so the problem another big problem with to-do list is that the goal is is dumb the
goal of a to-do list is to check boxes that's the goal of a to-do list and by the way I used to do this myself I used to finish a task and say oh shoot I forgot to write that on my to-do list after I had done it so I would write on my to-do list just for the joy of checking it off right how stupid is that
but that's what a to-do list incentivizes checking off cute boxes as opposed to the right way to get things done is by using using a time box calendar and no longer measuring Yourself by what you finished what that's really weird what I have to finish things I why would I stop
measuring Myself by how much I finish no the right metric of Success With A Time boox calendar which is what I teach in indistractable is not how much did I finish how many cute boxes did I check off because we know what people do they'll do the easy stuff they'll do the
Urgent stuff rather the metric of success is did I do what I said I was going to do for as long as I said I would with without distraction that's it it's not about finishing it's about did I do what I said I was going to do for as long as I said I would without distraction why is that such a better
metric because when you say to yourself I'm only going to measure myself based on was I able to just focus on that one task now we have a feedback loop we can say okay I'm going to work on this presentation it's going to be 30 slides long and I worked on it for 30 minutes
and I got through three slides okay terrific well that means I need nine more time boxes to finish that entire task now I have a feedback loop now this planning fallacy goes away because I can be able to understand how long things take me and I can plan accordingly as
opposed to a to-do list you're never done there's always more to do so because a timebox calendar gives you a constraint of 24 hours in the day we all have the same 24 hours in the day because you have that constraint it forces you to make trade-offs and that's something a to-do list can never do a
time box calendar forces you to say what is more important spending time with my kids or doing work watching TV or going to the gym whatever it might be whatever choice or trade-off you make is fine I don't care but it has to be according to what you say is important to you whereas
a to-do list there's never a constraint so those are some of the the main reasons why uh to-do lists are far far worse than a time box counter now it's fine by the way to put down those tasks on a piece of paper and then have them in a box of time on your calendar for example I have time in my calendar for
what I call admin Tas T that's fine right all these little two-minute tasks I just got to get through real quick that's fine what you don't want is to guide your day by your to-do list you've got to put those tasks into your calendar in order to to know what is traction the thing you said you were
going to do and everything else is distraction yeah I loved that uh distinction uh in in the book because on the one hand as you just said quite eloquently the the to-do list is giving you it is giving you feedback it's just giving you really bad feedback in other
words it just like you just keep looking and the list keeps growing and as you say you're like God I can't do anything I can't finish anything and that just becomes that self-fulfilling prophecy whereas the time box situation is the opposite you are feeding with good feedback yeah I I did that task for the
hour that I assigned to it did I get it done no but I look at I did it and so it gives you the wit that's exactly right and I think so few people Jim have actually experienced what real Leisure feels like because part of the problem with a to-do list is what I call the
tyranny of a to-do list that even when we get home from work and we just want to spend time with our kids we just want to watch something on Netflix we just want to relax we're always thinking about all those things we still haven't done on our to-do list so even the
leisure time you do have you don't really enjoy CU your your head is somewhere else whereas someone who keeps a Time Fox caler when you say to yourself this is exactly what I want to do and everything else is is a distraction I want to watch the big game on TV and I put it in my calendar I want
to spend time with my kids that's exactly what I should be doing everything else now becomes a distraction and so that that is something that very few people have experienced that Joy of hey I did this I worked on this task doesn't actually matter if I finished it but I worked on
that task and did nothing else but focus on that task so that tomorrow I can make an appropriate calendar to to based on the of how far I can get in a given unit of time when was the last time you were distracted so I I still get distracted from time to time that's that you know
the the becoming indistractable doesn't mean you never get distracted it means that you know why you got distracted so you can do something about it so poo coo has a wonderful quote he said a mistake repeated more than once is a decision such a good quote a mistake repeated
more than is a decision so a a distractable person keeps getting distracted by this the same things right how many times are we going to complain about Mark Zuckerberg and Tik Tock and the news and all this stuff how many times do we complain about this before we say enough I'm going to do something
about it so an IND distractible person says Ah okay I see what you did there distraction you distracted me once that's okay but I'm not going to let it happen again because every distraction only has one of three causes either it's an internal trigger an external Trigger
or planning problem that's it and so what an indistractable person does is say okay you know a circumstance changed something happened something unpredictable all right no problem I'm going to get back to my time box calendar and then I'm going to look back and say okay why did I go off track and
how do I make sure that my calendar for the next day is easier to follow that's the goal that the goal is not to be a drill sergeant saying oh I have to do this I have to do that no the goal is to be a scientist the job of a scientist is to make a hypothesis run an experiment
look at the results and then run future experiments based on those results so I'm constantly refining my C to make it easier to follow so if I say oh you know what I I want to write in the morning but you know sometimes I find that's not as fun for me maybe I'll move that maybe
I'll move this meeting here or or move that there that's fine but never in the day once you set your time box calendar that's it it's loaded it's you you can't change it but you can absolutely change the calendar for the next day the next week the next month that's fine you just
can't change it in the day when you started doing this how often did you do that it a and and what were what surprised you when when you started the process uh noted okay that distracted me why did that distract me you made your notes you change the time box what what were the things that surprised you the most
yeah so so one of the things that surprised me is that it's not as difficult as it sounds I think a lot of people when when you tell them about the science of uh setting implementations of time boxing it sounds scary to a lot of people oh how can I plan my day what if
something happens that sounds so rigid that's impossible for me I'm in the client services business I have employees people need to contact me what's going to happen and what this all boils down to is not reality it's a perception of reality it's a subjective opinion about reality getting us back to
the root cause of distraction it's the internal triggers it's not the external triggers everybody worries about the external triggers what if my kids need me what if my boss needs me what if my employees need me what if my clients need me they think about the external triggers but what's really driving them
to distraction is the fear that these people might need them not that they actually do it's the fear they might but that's not an external trigger that's an internal trigger so it's really about managing those those internal triggers managing that discomfort that fear that
discomfort and and it turns out that that that fear is a killer right you know fear is uh is such an enemy of being being the kind of people we want to be because in the fear that someone might need me I never make the time to do the important things in my life how ironic is that and so that that I think
that was a big surprise I think that's where I come to this from a very different angle encouraging people to have tools in their a toolkit you don't need to go see a psychiatrist for this type of stuff it's you know not there's anything wrong with that but there are
dozens of different techniques that any of us can use so that when we feel this discomfort which everyone does everyone does you know we we did surveys of high performers and it turns out that people who are at the top of their game in business like yourself or you know
people who are uh in the Arts or Athletics or whatever the case they feel the exact same internal triggers the rest of us do they also feel indecisive and uncertain and bored and lonely they feel the exact same internal triggers the difference between High performers and low performers is that the low
performers every time they feel that discomfort they need to check email they need to uh check the news they need to check television they need to have a drink they need to go take they need to escape the discomfort whereas High performers they feel the exact same emotions but instead of trying to escape
the emotion they lean into the emotion they use it as Rocket Fuel to propel them forward when they feel discouraged when they feel disadvantaged when they feel uh anxious they use that as Rocket Fuel it motivates them even more to get the job done and so that's a skill that
any of us can learn yeah and I I could not agree more um and I also would underline for our listeners and viewers that is a skill that can be learned it is not something because I was talking to and it's actually the source of my next question but another person I was
chatting about uh pre uh our recording and I was telling him about uh the time box Theory and and your other work and and the the the first person was well I think you kind of just built that way and I said no you are not built that way you can actually learn these habits and
and then another person that I was talking to said well ask him about spontaneity because it seems to me that that sounds like he's saying spontaneity is bad and I said I don't think he is but I will ask him yes okay so let's deal with these two I love the these are
great great questions so let's and and I've heard them many many times I'm sure I'm sure you have yeah so let's deal with them one at time so F the the the first one around I'm built this way so there's a a chapter in the book about how important it is to uh to to to reimagine your temperament right the
temperament is defined as as these traits that we're we're inborn with or or or you know part of who we are and I really challenge that notion and I I challenge it from a perspective that is might be familiar to a few folks a few years ago in the psychology Community we
had this concept called ego depletion ego depletion says that willpower is a depletable resource that many of us and I used to believe this as well thought that that that we run out of willpower right that when you get home from a hard day of work uh that that's it I can't
make any more good decisions give me that pint of Ben and& Jerry's I'm G to sit in front of the TV and watch the big game and eat my ice cream right that there's no willpower left and many people believe this and intuitively but there was some research that that uh one uh psychologist did uh and and kind of
coined this term ego depletion showing that oh look at these studies that find that you run out of willpower just like you would run out of charge in a battery or gas in a gas tank well you know the media love this it it reinforc a lot of people's beliefs that uh that they're
just out of willpower how could you possibly make any more good decisions I'm out of it I'm I'm spent uh and then you know what we do in the social sciences when something sounds fishy or sounds too good to be true we try and replicate the studies and it turns out
that as far as we know this concept of ego depletion that we run out of willpower like gas in a gas tank isn't true we couldn't replicate the studies it it sounds like it it wasn't real all along except in one group of people uh Carol DW at Stanford did this study where she found that there is in fact
one group of people who really do experience ego depletion they really do run out of willpower who are those people it is people who believe that willpower is a limited resource so if you believe that you're spent you can't make any more good decisions all your willpower is is gone guess what you act
in accordance with that belief and so this I think is is a wonderful insight into how dangerous it is to have labels now labels can serve us the reason I titled my book IND distractible indestructible is meant to sound like indestructible it's meant to be a label
right we can talk about how you can use labels and identity to help you but I think many times people use these labels in a very harmful way when someone says oh I have a short attention span or I'm no good at time management or I'm not born that way I'm not built that way as
as the person said to you or I'm a Sagittarius right these labels are actively harmful I think for a lot of people this ADHD diagnosis uh particularly among adults is very harmful not that I'm I'm not I'm not debating about you know we don't need to get into uh what's real what's not and
the incentives around that that's a whole another debate but just carrying around this label that this is who I am it's a fixed trait is very very harmful and so we need to rid ourselves of those harmful uh labels as Henry Fort said whether you believe you can or you can't
you're right yeah and so we need to be very very careful of these labels that we adopt particularly the one around well some people are just born that way another label by the way that we see very prominently uh kind of discussed in in in the mainstream press is this idea that technology is addictive
that it's hijacking our brains you know as as a fellow word nerd addiction comes from the Latin addico which means slave so we are perpetuating this myth that you are enslaved by your technology so what does that mean if you constantly tell people there's nothing you can do
about the problem you're powerless you're a Slave What do people do nothing right it's called learn helplessness if you're constantly told there's nothing you can do about the problem you don't do anything about it whereas it turns out it's not that hard I just gave you the four strategies it's
not that difficult so that's number one be very very careful these labels because if you believe you can't you're right uh the second part around spontaneity let's talk about that that's a really good one so some people really do resist time box calendar because they
want to be spontaneous well there there's a few things around this number one it turns out when it comes to creatives I hear this argument sometimes from creatives right I need to be available whenever the Muse decides to visit me I need to you know I don't know when I can be creative so I need to be
available all the time well as Steven pressfield says you know I love his book The the war of art that the more time you spent in the seat with your butt in the chair to do the work the more the Muse visits and so the difference between an amateur and a professional is
that professional puts their butt in the seat and is ready to do the work whether they feel inspired or not and by doing so they get inspired by planning the time to do the work so it turns out if if you want to do your best work if you want to finish that novel if you want to
start that business if you whatever it is that you want to get done that planning the time is essential it's not just going to show up right it it's it's through consistent uh uh forward momentum right consistently writing another page in your book consistently going to the gym consistently investing
in that relationship consistently business building that business this stuff doesn't happen through intensity it happens through consistency and so it has to be planned for in your day now what about spontan what about having fun first of all I want you to plan anything
you desire if you want time in your day to play video games put it in your calendar if you want time for prayer meditation exercise rest staring at the wall it doesn't matter you can put all that in your calendar including time for spontaneity now this sounds like an
oxymoron how do you plan spontan I'll tell you exactly how so I have a 15-year-old and every weekend since she was very little we have time for what we call plan spontaneity we have this big swath of time four hours every weekend that we have time to be together now I don't know what we're going to do at
that time maybe we'll go to the park maybe we'll go surfing maybe we'll go get some ice cream I don't know what we're going to do that time right that's going to be spontaneous but so why do I plan it why do I have to plan for spontaneity because if I don't plan for it it won't happen I need to block at
that time so I know what I will not be doing I will not be on social media I will not be watching TV I will not be on a work call I will be with someone I love very much so you can absolutely plan for that spontania and I encourage you to do that the idea here is that if
you don't plan for the things that are super important those aren't going to happen and so you have to reserve time for them as well yeah and uh I I couldn't agree more with your idea about labels um they they can have a positive effect yes because like indestructible indistractable which
is a great uh way great Title by the way um but uh one of the things that has bothered me a great deal I've talked about it a lot Etc is the label thinking right like and and you're Your Own Worst Enemy in this regard if you and I've and I mentored lots of people uh younger
people and like that seems to be the number one thing they they're living with all of these labels that they've placed on themselves Andor accept it to be placed on them by some by another right and yeah no I just can't do that that's just uh that isn't natural to me and no I could never I can't ever do
that and I'm just like oh my god do you understand that you are programming yourself to have that exact outcome if you continuously label yourself and and then I I try to get into out about inverting you know let's look at Charlie Munger here let's say uh let's try some
good labels what are you really good at start thinking about it that way uh I think it's it's almost a conspiracy in a way because there there's so many interests out there that want you to label yourself as one thing or another because it's very comforting right when I have a label to explain the way I am I
don't have to try anymore right I'm a Sagittarius therefore that's just the way I am I don't have to make an effort or I have some diagnosis right the ones around ADHD kill me because not that everybody does this but a lot of people they get some kind of diagnosis or even
worse they don't have a diagnosis but somehow they self-diagnosed because somebody on Tik Tok told them so that now they're making up all kinds of disorders right I have high functioning anxiety there is no such thing it doesn't exist in the DSM and yet you hear people making up these diagnosis
because they're incredibly comforting there's this warm blanket of I don't have to do anything but that's hogwash it's ridiculous you are punching yourself in the face and there's nothing that says that even if you have a diagnosis you can't cure it for example
you know if you if you have a cold and now you feel you don't feel the symptoms anymore do you have the cold no the virus has left your body you don't feel the symptoms you don't have the cold but somehow with ADHD oh I'm going to have this forever but if I can teach you a
system that that eliminates the system uh the symptoms I should say if you don't suffer from it anymore if now you can manage your time well guess what you you cured yourself and that's fantastic we can do that as opposed to I think what many whether it's in the pharmaceutical industry whether it's in
the media whether it's uh promoted among people who have these disorders they they almost want that disorder to be what defines them and that's incredibly dangerous because it blocks you off from actually making the effort to do some very simple things right how about before you start popping pills or even
worse giving your kid pills how about we plan our time right how about we make a calendar right not that hard we can do these simple actions but most of all first and foremost don't label yourself with a label that doesn't serve you maybe it's actually a good time if you
don't mind to talk about how we can label ourselves in a helpful way because I think this is fascinating yeah so this is one of the the steps in the fourth step of the hook of the indistractable model around how we can make a PCT and a PCT is a a pre-commitment device and one
of the packs there are many different kinds of packs price packed effort packed we can talk about but one of the most powerful is an identity packed and this comes out of the psychology of religion that we know that when someone has a label that Define themselves by right when they become a a noun rather
than a verb it's very very powerful uh there was a an interesting study done by kuten uh that found that the most effective intervention ever recorded for how to get people to go vote was very simple they called people up and they asked them one of two questions they said are you a voter or are you planning
to vote okay the verb versus the noun are you you a voter or are you planning to vote and then they actually check the voting logs to see who actually showed up and went to vote and it turns out that people who Define themselves as a voter am I a voter right the noun form
rather than the verb were much more likely to go vote because it's about that identity and so when you think about the psychology of religion right some a devout Muslim doesn't uh uh say oh am I going to have a bacon sandwich for breakfast right because devout Muslims don't eat bacon right same with
vegetarians vegan they don't contemplate oh am I going to do this thing that breaks my identity because it's who I am so we can do the exact same thing with becoming indestructible that when we say to ourselves that's who I am I'm indistractable I don't answer every ping
or ding every 20 seconds right uh if we're going to have lunch together we're going to be present both in body and mind so let's put our phones away you know that because that's who I am I'm indistractable is it is it that different from someone who calls themselves a non-smoker or someone who
wears religious Garb it's not so different so we can use that that psychology of identity to help us live out the kind of lives we want yeah and that's the one exception uh where labels are actually quite empowering as opposed to the other way around I think that uh the the the other
as you were talking about ADHD and and uh some of the other things that people either self diagnose themselves with or the industry uh diagnoses them with you know it does seem to me that we are in sort of a slope where we're trying to medicalize everything and and you know and here is
the cure and at least in America The Cure is always here take this pill uh you know uh and then you'll be fine or you know this is the easy solution generally speaking only mask symptoms doesn't actually address the real problem um what are your thoughts about
um about that Trend and how is does does it is it adjacent to one of the reasons why people are are so distractable these days you know I think you hit the nail in the head it's you know there's there's um one it's it's a great business right when you can get people to to keep taking a drug uh in
perpetuity that's an amazing business model uh when when the the the profits are are huge per unit uh and you can get someone to take it for the rest of their lives there's a lot of incentives behind that and and it's not it's not some Sinister plot you know I think I I
talked to a lot of uh of therapists a lot of people who work with uh folks who have ADHD use my book uh and and and what you know what they tell me is that they're spread incredibly thin that when a parent comes to you and says my kid is acting crazy uh their teachers can't can't deal with them please help you
know and and and they're desperate right they're looking for Solutions and so it's very difficult to tell a parent hey look this is what a 5-year-old boy acts like right it's it's normal it's okay they don't have to sit down and you know pay attention to some teacher for hours
on end that's not the way we evolved right children historically up until the last what 150 years of of of institutionalized education they ran around all day that's what they did for the early years they didn't sit there and listen to a teacher and but that's
that bucks the system and so it's it you can't tell a parent that that uh look this part of being a parent and uh actually the school system is not helping you here because the school system is also incentivized to diagnosed as much as possible it makes teachers lives easier uh schools get more
resources the more kids are diagnosed with one thing or another uh and so it's in everybody's interest except the kids many times and it's not to say that there aren't extreme cases where you know a diagnosis could be helpful and that Pharmaceuticals could be helpful but it my contention is it's always
skills before pills skills before pills in in in all regards when it comes to to uh uh you know disorders psychiatric ailments where there is the possibility to teach a new skill and that's not always possible right when it comes to schizophrenia there's there's disorders
clearly that you know require different types of of treatment but when it comes to ADHD anxiety insomnia uh these type of things turns out that there are skills that we can learn before we start popping pills into our body because the the the the pills don't teach you any
new skills whereas if we can as the first line of defense say okay what are the tactics what are the skills that I can try and adopt in my own life and again there are many easy tactics that if we try can yield amazing results then if we've exhausted all those skills okay then we'll try some kind of
pharmaceutical intervention as opposed to I think what what many people do is okay I want the Quick Fix give me some kind of pill that's going to make me feel better which one has all kinds of side effects uh and two doesn't actually solve the root cause of the problem yeah
um and as as we're talking about kids how how can you help your kids um how how can you get them on the right path towards being indistractable so this is a a super important topic because you know if you think the world is distracting now just wait a few years between virtual reality
and augmented reality and everything that's happening in reality reality the world is only becoming a more distracting place and so we have got to teach our kids how to become IND distractible so let me let me give you a few tips number one the most important thing you can do is to lead by example I
can't tell you how many parents complain to me about how distracted their kids are their kids are always playing on their devices and the Tik toks and whatever and meanwhile they're on their phone checking email or whatever as they're telling me this okay so we have
to stop being Hypocrites as parents we have to lead by example which can include telling your kids that it's a struggle for you that's okay many parents are are allergic to being vulnerable that's one of the best things you can do is to tell your kids look I struggle with this as well this is hard
for me let's do this together when it comes to how do we raise indistractable kids and there's a whole section in the book on how to do this the the the four steps are exactly the same Master internal triggers make time for traction hack back external triggers prevent
distraction with packs it's the same four steps but there's some special things we need to understand starting with their internal triggers we have to understand why kids overuse technology it's it's a very surface level understanding it's a very naive understanding to say oh it's fortnite oh
it's Tik Tok oh it's YouTube it's a very surface level understanding we need to go deeper into why kids overuse and abuse technology because we know and this is across the board three hours or less of extracurricular Screen Time Has No dilus Effects there hasn't been even
one study that shows that age appropriate screen time of three hours or less has any dearis effects the problems start to happen when kids are using for five six seven hours a day look any form of media that a kid is using for that many hours a day is going to be a problem even if they're reading
Harry Potter books for seven hours a day that's a problem okay there's something else going on so it's about the overuse the abuse that's what we need to figure out what's going on so why why are kids overusing technology okay so here's where it gets deeper and I think more
interesting we have to understand what's called the needs displacement hypothesis the needs displacement hypothesis says that when we are not getting what we need psychologically offline we look for it online and so what are kids missing what are they not getting offline so if
we look back to the most widely held most widely researched theory on human motivation and flourishing it's called self-determination Theory it's about a 50-year-old Theory pretty much every psychologist on the face of the Earth uh knows this Theory very very well self-determination Theory says that
every human brain needs three things for psychological well-being three things we need competency autonomy and relatedness okay so let's look at those three things let's look at what's happened to kids over the past generation let's look at competency one of the things that's
happened around the same time that everybody got smartphones was this teaching towards the test at least in the United States you know there No Child Left Behind Act which regulated and started compensating teachers based on how well kids are doing on standardized tests so there is a segment
of of kids who start getting tested multiple times per year starting in first grade who are told again and again and again you are not competent and so what do you do if you don't feel competent in the real world you start looking for that competency that feeling
of Competency which every single one of us needs you start looking for it online right in Roblox or Minecraft or you know any one of these games I feel competent I'm building something I'm creating something it feels good to feel competent now let's look at autonomy this is a big one every human brain
needs a sense of autonomy right and so we know that this is the most regulated generation in history if you look at the work of Peter gray fascinating work he talks about how the amount of time that kids spend playing today is at a record low and what that has caused is that
that sense of autonomy has disappeared if you think about it there are only two places in society where you can tell a human being what to do what to think how to dress who to be friends with where to go and that's school and prison that's and so is it any surprise when our kids
get home from school they just want to be free they just want to be autonomous right they just want to do what they want to do and that's where this myth of the rebellious teenager comes from you hear this all the time oh the teenage brains and the hormones it's complete
rubbish if you look at pre-industrialized Society there is no such thing as teenage rebelliousness it's only an industrialized Society where we force kids to be in cages that they behave like animals and so is it any surprise when we tell people what to do all day they want to rebel they're so
desperate for autonomy and where do they get that autonomy well they go online right the the the tech companies are happy to give them a sense of autonomy they feel free online and then finally relatedness and this is the most important of the three we know that the time that kids spend interacting with
other kids doing what's called free play free play is when you get to be with your friends without the The Gaze of teachers and coaches and parents and just have time to be a kid that time is at a record low you know the the the the neighborhoods of of America used to sing
with the song of kids playing every afternoon you don't hear that anymore the media has scared the crap out of parents to the point where they don't let their kids outside because of stranger danger even though it's completely overblown this is the safest time in American history to be a kid or
uh you know K now parents are so over scheduling their kids because they're so concerned about getting them into the right school so they've got ballet and they've got Mandarin lessons and swimming practice they have no time to play if you want your kid to be
psychologically healthy the best thing you can do is to let them play with other kids in the real world let them hang out right that's what we used to do all the time as kids but we don't let our kids do that we shut them behind closed doors and what do we expect them
to do right like read the encyclopedia no they're going to go online because that's where they feel relatedness that's where they connect with other people social media is about social interaction you've ever played fortnite with your kid it's not a video game it's a way to hang out with your friends
disguise is a video game and so with those three psychological nutrients if you don't understand the deeper reason why kids are overusing technology you're never going to solve the source of the problem I guarantee you this is a symptom not the cause yeah it just resonates so strongly with me I've been
that's one of my soap boxes about locking kids away in schools and and requiring them to follow the rules and you must memorize this and all of these things are just absolutely the wrong way to do it I love your your combination with schools and prison those are the two
and and the bells right we don't even like the schedule it's it's designed for a certain type of economy which makes sense at the time right when we always think of whatever technology existed before we were born as the way things have always been schools are a new technology right stuffing 30 kids in the
room in the room and making them pay attention to some boring person talking for an hour is a new technology it's only about years old how did kids used to learn they did Apprentice work right they helped the grown-ups do their work and that's how they learned to trade and
we need to bring that back I think I completely agree and I I think that we we did that as you say we did it to serve the industrial economy of the time the industrialists were like okay here's what we need we need you to be train these people to be robots to do repetitive activities without
complaining for at eight to 10 hours a day can you hook us up and right we got the school system that we still are inflicting on children today and exctly now essentially we are doing everything wrong for the way the economy runs now we should you know we are I when I get going on this one I really
get on to stemwinders but I I I I can see that we agree and the autonomy part again I completely concur when we were raising our kids I'm all of my children are adults I have six grandchildren um and uh but you know we let them you know where are you well I'm doing this this and this great go have
fun and well do I have to be home by a certain well yeah you have to be home by you know 10 o'clock or depending on their age but we didn't didn't try and I was at a party once and it was with a bunch of Boomers right and the listen when I was a kid the things we got up to
I mean like oh my God and you know I was one of those kids who rode off on the bike didn't get home until it was dinner time my mom and dad said you have fun that that was it no interrogation none of that but at this party everyone is saying well do you have the Spy wear on
your kids phones and I'm like what am I hearing like how could you be such a hypocrite like right do you remember how many drugs we took when we were all the we got up to and now you're putting spy devices and your CH you can't do that and raise an autonomous healthy adult right I mean
the message you're sending by constantly you know these we call them snowplow parents right they have to remove all the obstacles from their kids way you are essentially telling your kid constantly you are not capable you can't do this on your own and so so are we surprised that we have this generation
of kids who believes what their parents have been telling I can't do anything I'm constantly anxious I must have a disorder there must be something wrong with me because my parents won't let me be free and be a human being and that is I think a a really critical mistake that
we've made with this generation is we have to let them make their own mistakes there's that there's that wonderful book called The the lesson of a skin meat right like when a kid makes a mistake they learn from that as opposed to when we try and protect them from every
little thing or trying to trying to medicalize every little thing as as as some kind of disorder that requires special treatment you know a lot of these things preclude kids from learning their own lessons which is so so important now that isn't to say that we can't hit the Best of Both Worlds right
because one of the things that that people often uh forget to mention when they think about okay look we have this rise in in teens suicide and mental health issues and they blame that on technology which I think is is spirous but we can get back to that in a minute what they fail to realize is that in
that same time that we have seen an increase in mental health issues all the things that used to harm kids all the things that we struggled with as as teenagers that used to hurt us all those things are at record lows teen pregnancy record lows drunk driving record lows
teen incarceration record lows truancy record lows all these things that used to make Teenage life very dangerous are at record lows it's still despite the the rise in in in teen suicide among girls not among boys but among girls seems to be uh mitigated in some way by techn ol as well because at the end of
day if you wanted to keep kids safe at home and off the streets well maybe there's some virtues to having such a device too yeah and it's the it's the constant refrain and girl clutching that drives me nuts right like and and it it also if you know history and I know you
don't know history but like every new technology it's like oh you know symphony orchestras for example when when record players came out uh Victor Olas right they took full page ads in newspapers saying that is not the way you listen to music that isn't music the only way to listen to music is to hear
it live with a symphony right and you know when radio came out well what what showed up in newspapers pictures of a bunch of dead birds right next to a radio tower it's very dangerous right absolutely these moral panics yeah moral panics and then you sort of back up the
truck and you and getting back to the the studies like the replication crisis is still kind of like a very serious deal I love reading a lot of the uh uh social science uh papers and all of that and you know sometimes I'll just be going okay I wonder if this replicates
and then when you start looking like no but what does the media love they love the easy cell that's the easy solution you know that's right whatevered up did you see study they did this they this amazing study where they took um they took folks uh like non-academics just lay people and they showed them a list
of studies and they said which one of these do you think doesn't replicate or which one of these are you suspicious of and it was it was a amazingly High degree of if people thought that study was too good to be true it always was right like whenever you read that study
that said chocolate is good for you and wine is good for you and like all like whatever nine times out of 10 that study can't replicate and that's the other part right like we we continually denigrate people have a lot of common sense and you know like I love that looking at the
thing okay yeah this one that says uh wine is the best thing for me in the world yeah probably I'm not I think that one's gonna really proed to be true and yet like the you know the the I wonder though like why why do certain type academics why are they drawn towards those types of
studies because it uh it makes an aim for you right that one there's incredible pressure in the academic Community to publish a lot right publish or parish is kind of the the the motto uh and a lot of these things uh it's almost too especially in the social Sciences unfortunately we're seeing in
all the Sciences now that uh not only this replication crisis but outright fraud right it felds that we didn't expect we we expected it in social sciences you know because it's so easy right there's been all kinds of controversies now in Harvard and and several other places around say that
just don't replicate that's that's almost one level of dishonesty right the the statistical fraud of of what we call the the bottom drawer problem I'm not going to publish the study that that didn't uh do so well I'm only going to study the the the one that did or
packing right where we run a study a thousand times we see this a lot in the social media debate around um uh studies that aren't pre-registered so I'll run a study on a gazillion different factors and then I'll point the feud that says oh here's the correlation between mental
health and such and such um but I didn't show you how big of an effect that might have or or whether that was a statistical fluke uh so we can you know there's a lot you when we say like the confidence interval of of uh for something to be statistically significant that's still allows for 5%
for five out of 100 trials will just be statistical flukes and so many times people publish that statistical fluke rather than what's actually true in the field and so there's just there's a lot of room for interpretation of these studies uh that that the average person
doesn't know when they read a newspaper that says oh social media does this or that they kind of take it as face value because it serves a convenient narrative my kid is acting crazy and so I need an excuse that says that it's not my parenting or a school system I don't want want to escape there must be
something else oh it's it's Mark Zuckerberg's fault somebody else is doing this to me that's a narrative we want to consume and of course the media is happy to publish yeah and it it goes uh deeply on the part of you got you want to get published so who's going to present a grant uh proposal or request
where they say they hypothesis we fully expect it to be a null set right like yeah exactly not many as a matter of fact or even to replicate right I mean this is something that I I I I think is quite fixable there you should be able to get a PhD simply by replicating a study which you
can't do today has to be novel it has to be new so they're constantly looking for novelty at the expense of academic rigor and that's I think that's a real shame absolutely and I passionately agree with you if you could get a PhD simply you know running the uh test to replicate
that's a real amazing value to the public and to everyone else one of the things uh we we invest in a lot of various AI companies and one of the things that we're thinking of doing with the stack that we're putting in here at osv is we're we're thinking of uh having an AI just
generate null hypothesis uh tests right since very few people do it right right we we lose the ability to learn via negativity right yeah and so let's let's run let's have ai just run endless hypotheses and we'll have them Auto publish to a database that's open to all Scholars I think that we we forget there
are agendas there are all of these things and sometimes they're pretty complicated and the point you made it's like the parent I I'm not a I couldn't possibly be a bad parent so that Mark Zuckerberg guy yeah that's right you know I I would love for you to do this AI project by
the way I think the the the Inconvenient Truth is that I don't know how many academics will give you their data sets that's that might be the problem oh I can't find it or oh it's inconvenient or I don't have time for that that's I think part of the problem now I I we
have seen I have to I have to give Academia credit at least in the the fields that I look at there has been a serious push now to uh to to pre-register studies that's going to fix a lot of the problem right there is to say in advance before you run the data set you have to tell us what you expect
to find that right there is going to solve a lot of this pecking problem um but yeah if you could get the data but it's amazing how many times when people want to replicate a study oh I lost the data or it's too old or it needs to be scrubbed or I'm sorry I can't get that
to you right now so but if you could figure out a way around that that would be amazing well I had an experience when I was in college um where uh I participated as a volunteer in a in a study um and the hypothesis was well stated um and uh when all of the results came in it proved that the hypothesis
wasn't right and uh so anyway I was uh waiting to read the preprint on you know the the write up of it he didn't write it up and I I literally went to his office and I'm like Professor I thought you know we I was one of and he was like who are you well there were of
volunteers and you know I've moved on to other things and I was really struck by that and I'm like wow no that's that's not right that and and do you think that goes on a lot these days oh I don't just think it goes on I know it goes on and I I'll tell you what many professors I'm
not saying that I don't know who this was but many professors would have just rerun that study a few more times until they got the results they want right this was back in the yeah this was back in the 70s they they probably hadn't of that yet right science works I mean look I'm I'm
a big when people say believe the science believe the good science right and and part of the scientific process is fundamentally you don't have to have faith right nobody's asking you to have faith in a scientist but in order for that that the scientific process to
perpetuate and for us to believe in science we have to have access to transparency to how the study was done we need to have access to the data sets we need to have access to uh uh you know the pre-registered uh hypothesis these type of things are going to make science
better and better and better so it's not that I'm down on on the acade on the scientific process I'm down on the current way it's been done over the past uh 20 30 50 years now unfortunately I think a lot of studies are done very poorly yeah as am I and the scientific method like the scientific method is
kind of pure punk rock Anarchy right it's like take nobody's word for it here's the data here's what I expect you can have everything you should be able to replicate and if I'm wrong we should learn something from that and then iterate you know what I mean the scientific method
is like the people who drive me nuts are nope the science is settled science is never settled it's never settled or or science says or science Pro one just I hate that I see those headlines and just like oh my God you don't understand what science does right there's it's not like
you know you could say God says right can't say Sciences that's not how it works I absolutely love that well um I've had so much fun talking about just your one book I was ready to try to maybe talk about your second book but I hope you'll be able to come back on so we can talk about because I have a lot
that's a that was a great book too and I have a lot of questions about that but in the interest of time I've just this has been fantastic I think that our listeners and viewers are going to love this um I'm I'm I'm sure get uh some of the follow on yeah but it's just so hard
Jim that's true that's you know what you you are gonna hear that and maybe it's worth addressing it real quick before before we part uh sure you know if you look at everything good in life I get this excuse sometimes but it's so difficult how can we expect people to do this how can we expect people to to uh
become indistractable there's all these steps they have to take and my my rebuttal is what in life worth having is easy requires some effort right if you want to have things that other people don't have you have to do things other people don't do and so the masses will watch
their boob tube and scroll on their devices and waste their life away but that doesn't have to be you that if you want to meet your full potential if you want to live the kind of life you know you're capable of living and contribute to the world in the way you know you are
capable of you have to do some things a little different you have to Buck the trends which means you have to to to learn some new skills that the good news is it's right here a silver platter right I've done the five years of research on how to do it and and there are 30 pages of citations to peer
reviewed studies that this isn't just you know stuff that works for me so it's going to work for you no no no it this is stuff that has been in in multiple peer-review journals and and studies that I actually look through and use these techniques in my own life as well
so it's right here on a silver platter we just have to do it and it replicates that's right well at the end of all of our shows we we ask our guests uh we're gonna wave a wand and make you the emperor of the world you can't put anyone in a re-education camp you because our mutual feelings about
schools and presid uh you can't execute anyone but what you can do is we're gonna hand you a magical microphone and you can incept two you can make two statements and everyone in the world whenever their tomorrow is is going to wake up and the two statements that you
make they're going to think they thought of themselves and unlike what we were just talking about oh it's too hard they're going to say you know what I'm actually G to start acting on both of these things today and I'm going to see them through to the end what are you gonna incept what are you gonna accept
in the world okay so the the the I can only think of one at the moment but let me see if I can think of the other so I would say I would love to incept this Mantra that if you were to summarize my work uh and IND distractible it's this that the antidote to impulsiveness is forethought the
antidote to impulsiveness is forethought that fundamentally distraction is not a moral failing it's not a character flaw it's simply the fact that we don't know how to control our impulses but that is a skill like any other and that's all it is it's just impulse control so what is the antidote
to impulsiveness the antidote to impulsiveness is forethought that if you wait till the last minute if you're on a diet but the chocolate cake is on the fork you're you're going to eat it it's too late if you're trying to quit smoking but the cigarettes in your hand it's too late you're going to smoke it
if you sleep next to your cell phone every night and it's the first thing you see in the morning and pick up and you know start checking your phone before you say hello to your loved one it's too late you lost but if we plan ahead right if we take steps today there's no
distraction we can't overcome tomorrow so the antidote to impulsiveness is fourthought we have to plan ahead and if we do there's no distraction we can't overcome I love that one you got one more one more I have to think about this one I I that's my best one because
that's that's what I've researched the most um let's see I think another one would be to and this one I have to I have to steal from from Jeff Bezos who talks about the regret minimization framework I think that's a wonderful way to think about life is to ask yourself what would
I regret not doing not trying what would I look back on and say h I should have given that a shot and I think for for most of us I I don't think many people regret trying and failing they regret not trying they regret not following through and so if I could incept that model of look you have so little time on
earth right it passes by so quickly and the improbability of you even being here statistically is so infimal that it is our duty to try and minimize regret to make the very most of what we can with the limited time we have here on Earth so don't SW wanted to that time that you
can you know we're so focused on saving money right we try and people clip coupons and they split lunches and they look for sales and deals but when it comes to time we just give it away to whoever wants it right whatever stupid thing is happening in the media yeah sure take my time you can have my
attention all you want but when it comes to our money we try and hoard it and save it we put it in Banks and vaults and we keep it you know so nobody can get to it but it should be the exact opposite because we can always make more money you cannot make more time I don't
care if you're musk or Jeff Bezos you can't make more time so we should be cheap with our time and generous with our money not the other way around oh those are two great ones and we are so sympotic because that's one of my little things is like don't you realize that by
just being here you've won the cosmic Lottery do you know what the odds against are so true so every time I'm stressed this is my this is my my de-stress technique right whenever I'm stressed about some little thing in life I always think back to what are the what's the probability that that one
sperm entered that one egg at that exact moment and that before that there was whatever amount of generations for 200,000 years and two million years of evolution and 3.5 billion years of of the planet's life in this tiny Speck of dust in this vast Universe I mean it
blows your mind and you realize how insignificant a lot of our little problems are in the cosmic scale totally and then you just got to say oh my God I I literally won the the cosmic Lottery that is the most hard to win of any lottery in the world why am I worried about this like right exactly right I
started right on own plate not even on third base that's so true and then and then I go hug my daughter perfect perfect uh thank you so much for joining us I and thank you for agreeing to come back on because I've got an equal number of questions for you on your other book
because a lot of our people will also be very interested in that but uh pleasure yeah it was just uh wonderful covering this book I highly recommend it uh people listening you can buy it anywhere do it today de thank you very much my pleasure great to be with you great to be with you cheers e