0:00
What did you have for breakfast?
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0:01
For breakfast I had the same thing I eat every day, which was a wonderful egg omelette including chopped up jalapeno peppers, onions, mushrooms, and spinach. Sounds delicious.
0:12
Optimal minimal At this altitude I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.
0:18
Can I ask you a personal question?
0:20
No, we don't seem to have the time.
0:22
What if I did the opposite?
0:22
I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.
0:35
This episode is brought to you by Headspace, the world's most popular meditation app. I have it on my phone.
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I use it all the time when I'm in Ubers, when I'm in airplanes, when I'm in those in between spaces and I want to do some good for myself.
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It does not have to be complicated or expensive.
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1:57
This podcast is brought to you by Four Sigmatic.
1:58
I reached out to these Finnish folks, young entrepreneurs, very talented, after a acrobat introduced me to one of their products, which is mushroom coffee.
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The specific one includes chaga and lion's mane, and it knocked my socks off.
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I highly recommend if you try it, you start with half a packet.
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It's very strong and lights you up like a Christmas tree in the best way possible.
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People are always asking me what I use for cognitive enhancement, and for right now, this is the answer.
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I try to force this on all of my house guests. It is a hell of a thing.
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If I have employees or people come over who are working on projects with me, I always try to feed it to them because I'm going to get the Limitless effect.
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The first time I mentioned this product and Four Sigmatic on the podcast, their products sold out in less than a week, so you may want to check them out soon if you're listening to this.
2:54
And the coffee tastes like coffee.
2:54
It uh takes just seconds to prepare with hot water, and oddly enough, only includes 40 mg of caffeine, so it has less than half of what you'd get in a regular cup of coffee.
3:07
I don't get any jitters, acid reflux, or any stomach burn, any of that.
3:09
It's very unusual and very, very cool.
3:11
So, if you don't like caffeine, they also offer very strong but caffeine-free mushroom elixirs, which I will sometimes have in the evening.
3:20
I find chaga specifically to be very, very grounding and earthy.
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So, that is another option, and I have a cupboard full of their products uh at the moment, which is right around the corner in my kitchen.
3:30
You can try something You can try a sample pack, which is great, also.
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And they're not that expensive, anyway.
3:51
If you are in the experimental mindset, I do not think you'll be disappointed. So, try them out. Hello ladies and germs.
3:58
This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show.
4:01
Where does my job to interview world-class performers and tease out the habits, routines, tactics, etc.
4:07
that you can use and apply in immediate inmediatamenta.
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That's what he says in español. Si se habla español. Okay, so moving on.
4:16
Why am I in the language vibe?
4:18
Because I got a Japanese treat for you guys.
4:20
This time it's not military. It's not entertainment. It's not chess.
4:26
It is not business per se.
4:26
We have a master Japanese bladesmith and it is a very fascinating story.
4:34
I have since day one on this podcast wanted to have the chance to have a long in-depth conversation with a bladesmith. I love knives. I collect knives.
4:44
And now we have Murray Carter on the podcast.
4:46
I'm not going to give you his full bio because it unfolds in the process of this conversation, but I had an absolute blast.
4:56
If you want to get into knives, you want to get into Japan, you want to get into martial arts, if you have even a passing interest in someone with a high degree of I'm not going to say OCD, but attention to detail that nearly boggles the mind.
5:12
Someone who went from class clown to doing an 18-year stint in Japan, then this is the podcast for you.
5:19
I really am so excited to provide this to you guys because it exceeded all of my expectations.
5:28
Murray Carter, he is @cartercutlery on Facebook and Instagram.
5:31
Definitely check out the Instagram.
5:33
Was raised in Nova Scotia and that's in Canada, our fine neighbors to the north, and came in contact with Japanese culture when he attended a karate competition at the age of 15.
5:45
And I'm going to save a lot of his story for the actual conversation, which leads to a chance encounter with a 16th generation bladesmith.
5:56
Then 18 years in Japan, then being declared an alien of extraordinary ability.
6:00
Those words are capitalized by the INS in the US when he was granted immigration status to relocate.
6:06
He's now in Portland, Oregon.
6:08
This is for me a really, really fun podcast to finally publish.
6:11
It's one I have dreamt of having since the very first episode, even before recording the first episode of the Tim Ferriss Show.
6:20
So, without further ado, please enjoy Actually, I'm going to have some ado, but without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with Murray Carter.
6:27
Now, and also, just as a quick reminder and suggestion, if you are not subscribed to Five Bullet Friday, this is one of the most popular things that I do. It is completely free.
6:37
Every Friday, I send out a short email with bullets of the coolest articles, purchases, movies, uh hacks, experiments, etc.
6:46
that I have either been dabbling with or enjoyed or had referred to me by all of these various experts I have in my life and that I've spent time with.
6:55
So, Five Bullet Friday, it's free.
6:57
It has a 60-plus percent open rate and it is a lot of fun.
7:03
So, if you haven't checked that out, go to tim.
7:05
blog/friday and you can sign up. tim.
7:09
blog/friday and there's all sorts of exclusive stuff, private Q&As, events, and so on, things from various guests. It's fun. So, check that out. Five Bullet Friday, tim. blog/friday. And now, Murray Carter.
7:28
Murray, welcome to the show.
7:29
Yeah, thanks for having me on, Tim.
7:31
I am very excited to connect for many reasons.
7:34
Uh number one, from the very outset, one of my fantasies for this podcast was at some point having on a master bladesmith.
7:41
and what we can get into why that's the case, but I wanted that to be one of my objectives and a fantasy is realized in a sense.
7:50
So I'm I'm checking that box number one.
7:52
Number two is that I felt like you were somehow brought to me not to get too woo-woo, but just in the last few months I've had a close friend who's former special operations tell me that I had to take a class of yours at the very least to make a a neck knife or or some other type of knife to try to learn the craft and then also spent time last week with a well-known film director whose son has become a huge fan of yours and is studying the craft.
8:27
So on many levels, I think that this was in some form destined to be and I would love to start with just a little bit of background and I think that maybe the easiest way to jump into it is to say uh cover where you grew up and how Japan entered the picture.
8:48
Sure, yeah, I'd be happy to share that story with you.
8:50
I grew up in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada and at a very young age I became very interested in martial arts and military history and kind of the outdoors and watching movies like Jeremiah Johnson and so on gave me a great fascination for tools and and knives and weapons and so on.
9:11
And uh when I was 15 years old, I was lucky to attend a a regional karate competition as a guest, you know, as an observer, and that really piqued my interest.
9:21
And so I actually enrolled in a karate dojo and and did that for several years and and that started my real fascination with Japan.
9:33
And then of Of I kind of coupled that that interest with reading books about the martial arts and ninjas and so on.
9:39
And of course, you know, samurais and samurai swords and and the blades that they they used.
9:46
And And that's kind of where the fascination with Japan started.
9:50
When did that become and how did that become an opportunity to go to Japan?
9:55
And in terms of age, you were what, 15 or so at the time?
10:00
Well, I started karate when I was 15.
10:03
That would be in high school.
10:03
And I graduated high school when I was 17 and then turned 18 that summer.
10:08
And I worked for a full year.
10:11
Well, I worked for I don't know, several months and then the spring of the following year while I was still 18, I I did travel to Japan.
10:18
And the the destination within Japan was kind of a predetermined for me.
10:22
That was the prefecture called Kumamoto Prefecture on the island of Kyushu, the the southernmost of the four main islands of Japan.
10:33
Because that's where the karate dojo was located that I was going to attend to further and continue my studies in karate.
10:42
What type of What type of karate was that?
10:45
It's It's called Chito-ryu.
10:45
It's spelled c h i t o hyphen r y u and it's It's a version of Shito-ryu which is a little bit more well known.
10:57
I guess it originates from Okinawa.
11:02
And one of the main features of Chito-ryu was a higher more mobile stance than a lot of the other traditional forms of karate like Shotokan or Goju-ryu which have very low, very like low center of gravity stances for for kind of solidity but lacking maybe a little bit in mobility and and and flexibility.
11:27
So, when I first came across a few of the snippets of your bio, I thought to myself, okay, this is is really a conversation that has to happen because one of the most life-changing events in my life was 1992.
11:45
I was in high school, 15, and I had the opportunity to switch out of Spanish class because I'd concluded I was bad at Spanish into a different language, and my friends were in Japanese class, and I was always fascinated by martial arts, ninjas, and so on. Ah.
12:00
And went to then Japanese class.
12:00
Six months later, had the opportunity to leave the US on my first extended trip overseas to a sister school, which was in Tokyo.
12:11
So, at 15, went to Tokyo and stayed there for a year in a Japanese school with a Japanese family, and uh at that time, just uh I'm going to dig Not really a digression because I feel like I I want to share this with you, so there's a little bit of common ground.
12:27
I remember the first time I went to a karate school in Japan uh to take a class, and I went to a a Seidokai I went to a Seidokai school, and that was my first introduction to leg kicks, and mainly on the receiving end.
12:46
And I remember You were the You were the punching bag.
12:49
I was the punching bag, and and I remember that I came in, and they're like, "Oh, you know, they're like, oh, this is like former or at the time current wrestler, foreigner."
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I was the only one in the school.
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They're like, "Okay, well, like let's see Let's see how you move around."
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And the no head contact, and so I'm punching this guy in the chest, and every time I punched him in the chest, he would kick me in the leg, and I said, "Well, what's That's a great trade.
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I'm just going to punch you in the chest all day.
13:11
You can kick me in the leg as many times as you want."
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And I couldn't go to school the next day.
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And your leg was all swollen.
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Because my leg was ruined.
13:18
Uh How did How did you then go from I guess two questions.
13:24
Number one is how did the opportunity come about for you to travel to Japan to further your studies?
13:33
And then secondly where did where did blades come into play?
13:40
So you know when I was in high school I really caught a travel bug and that kind of fed into my fierce kind of independent spirit.
13:48
And although it wasn't really popular at the time I started hitchhiking when I was 14 years old and I and I found the wondrous joys of being able to hike out to a highway and stick my thumb out and get to places I wanted to get to without having had to save up money to buy my own car or pay for the insurance or pay for the gasoline.
14:09
It was a wonderful experience.
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And I traveled all over the province of Nova Scotia doing that.
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And you know the more I did it it kind of the more obsessed and compelled I felt to do that.
14:20
So by the time I was 16 years old I actually traveled to Europe by myself over the school Christmas vacation and spent three weeks in Europe visiting some acquaintances and also you know venturing to places I had never been by myself before.
14:39
So uh after high school you know I was very keen to travel and I although I had this nagging feeling in the back of my mind that you know studies were awaiting and that there was an expectation both self incurred and and and you know through my family to attend higher education I couldn't ignore the the overwhelming desire to travel.
15:04
So after high school I started to put this trip together that really was supposed to be a round-the-world tour.
15:14
When I was still in high school one of the seniors that graduated two years before me had done a round-the-world tour.
15:21
tour. At at time I believe you could through some different airlines you could purchase a very special plane ticket where so long as you kept moving in the same direction around the globe for one set fare with something like $6,000 or something at the time you could continue
15:41
to keep flying to different destinations so long as you kept moving in one direction so that eventually you would end up in the same place that you started from and then your ticket would expire so it was a it was a round the world airfare basically. And I when this senior came back from
15:55
And I when this senior came back from his world trip his story was featured in the local newspaper and I read it in its entirety and became very inspired and thought wow that's exactly what I want to do is emulate this round the world tour and so I concocted a plan that would have me hitchhike across North America.
16:18
And then from the west coast depart to Japan and stay there for 6 months where I would continue and further my education in karate and hopefully have some sort of cultural experience while I was there but I didn't know what that
16:32
was going to look like and from there I was going to travel around the rest of Southeast Asia I had planned to take a cargo ship I think from there to India and then another cargo ship from India to Africa and travel through Africa and up through
16:47
Europe and back to Nova Scotia my hometown and that was the plan and I had budgeted time for it I had budgeted money for it and you know I had I was in the process of actively trying to establish a connections and links and leads
17:05
you know so that I would know people at some of these destinations I was hoping to to get to but I probably had 30 or 40% of it figured out and the rest I was just going to wing you know wing it as I went along. It's a It's a good ratio. I think that's
17:17
It's a It's a good ratio.
17:17
I think that's actually very good ratio.
17:22
Well, you did well, just like your friends in the in certain communities, the high-speed, low-drag, you know, there's there's it's a beauty to not being uh you know, chained down with too many plans or promises. So, Yeah.
17:34
Well, as a as a friend of mine, Rolf Potts, who wrote a book that had a huge impact on me called Vagabonding, who is a long long-time long-term traveler, he ultimately the ability to improvise is more valuable than the a lot of the planning you do on the front end.
17:53
Uh which you would put differently.
17:53
And I And so, you get to Japan, you have this you have this 40% figured out, what happens?
18:02
Yeah, so as fate would have it, uh so, I immediately enrolled in the karate dojo, the what they call a hombu dojo, which is like the headquarters for our style of Chito-ryu karate.
18:12
And I did I just want to say uh I want to put a plug in there that that uh they were very very kind to me and uh it was a great experience and I can't say enough kind things about that uh about the people that I met there and the the uh the sensei who was there. But, I digress.
18:28
Uh I I was very keen and every morning started at 6:00 where we would uh meet and uh go into a special tatami mat room and uh light incense and kind of give homage to the ancestors of the of the karate sensei's family who, you know, kind of who started the whole thing, who had passed on.
18:50
And then we would uh go to each corner of the room, each each one of the participants, and sit in zazen, or basically sit on your knees, you know, with your feet kind of tucked up underneath your buttocks for 30 minutes.
19:05
minutes. And it was absolutely excruciating and your feet would fall asleep and you're wondering why in the world you traveled across uh the globe to to find yourself sitting in this excruciating position for 30 minutes every morning, but after that,
19:19
6:30, the bell would would ring much to our relief, and then we would go off, and we would meet in the karate dojo at 6:45, and uh we had practices every morning like that, and then we'd have practices three times, I think it was Monday, Wednesday, Fridays in the evening. And you know, I was just in karate
19:34
And you know, I was just in karate heaven, and uh you know, I was practicing with with some guys who would who would uh progress on to be world champions, so I really was amongst uh some great skill and talent and dedicated folks.
19:48
Uh but what happened, the the connection to knives was uh this.
19:53
Roughly around uh the fourth week of practicing karate, it was one of those evening practices, and we were doing uh let's see if I can recall what is called a a jumping flying sidekick.
20:07
And so you would kind of uh run up you're going to do the triple jump, and launch yourself into the air, and do a sidekick at some imaginary target.
20:13
Uh nobody ever taught you that if you actually made contact in that position, what you would do next, but mostly it was just flying through the air.
20:24
Uh I think we were very ill prepared for actually kicking anything in that manner.
20:29
Uh you certainly wouldn't want to go running up and jump at a wall and try to kick it, because I don't think the outcome would be very favorable, but anyway, uh when I was coming down to land from that position, I didn't quite have my uh feet and knees uh in front of me.
20:45
And so that So I very much had one of my legs, I think it was my left leg.
20:47
I was kicking with my right leg, and my left leg, when I came down and landed, I dislocated my knee. Oh.
20:54
So So it was Fortunately, it was kind of a mild dislocation, uh but it was a dislocation nonetheless, and I had to go to the hospital and and get a bunch of liquid removed from uh, somewhere in the in in in the knee joint.
21:06
And they And the doctor there, uh, put a cast on my leg that basically went from my left ankle all the way up to my, you know, top of my thigh, my left leg.
21:17
And he said that I had to keep it on for 3 weeks.
21:18
And and, uh, you know, that's the curse of being an 18-year-old.
21:20
Uh, you think you're invincible.
21:23
So, of course, I convinced them to take it off, I think, after 1 week.
21:26
And, uh, I never ever fully recovered.
21:29
In fact, uh, it turns out I've got a completely torn ACL, and I've been living with it and managing just fine, uh, for all these years ever since, almost uh, 30 years later. I'm 47 now.
21:44
So, so now I'm immobile, and, uh, I'm in the karate dojo, kind of in there in the, uh, the barracks, what we'll call it.
21:51
And, uh, not really able to practice.
21:53
And the karate teacher comes in, Chidō Sensei was his name. Great man. Great man.
21:59
And, uh, he kind of threw a Japanese language textbook at me.
22:05
And I couldn't tell like if it was an aggressive throw or a kind toss, but either way, it it really was a an amazing gift.
22:12
And up to that point, I had acquired no Japanese language ability.
22:19
And, uh, here was a textbook that, well, was a very well-written textbook, and I started to read it and work through the problems and started to study the language.
22:26
And that changed everything.
22:31
And what was, uh, what was the consequence of adding some Japanese speaking ability to your skill set at that point?
22:44
Well, I think you're you're aware because I can tell from the way you've spoken some Japanese words that you've, uh, acquired quite a level of proficiency in the language.
22:53
But, uh, you know, it opened up a whole lot more doors to me.
22:55
And, of course, it opened up conversation, it opened up friendships, it opened up the possibilities of travel, uh pursuing hobbies outside of karate.
23:08
Uh I you know, I thought that I had a very kind of open mind when I went to Japan, but you know, in hindsight really I was just I was just bonkers for karate and I really wasn't seeing much outside of that world.
23:18
Uh but once I started to learn the language and made some friends who were outside of the the karate circle, uh that's when everything really opened up for me and a lot of doors opened and that's what opened up the possibility to start studying bladesmithing.
23:34
So, I had a very similar experience.
23:34
Uh different domain, but not too dissimilar.
23:41
I went to a school in Tokyo called uh Seikei Kōtō Gakuin, which is in Kichijōji.
23:50
So, if those people in or eager to visit say Tokyo, the Inokashira Park is right next to or very close to where the school was located.
24:01
And as a student, I had to wear the uniform.
24:03
Looks like a uh uh sort of a Chinese like mandarin collar odd-looking uh seifuku as they call it.
24:11
And I'm glad they had your size.
24:14
Oh, yeah, they needed to do some special some special work to get a first year high school student to fit this jacket.
24:21
So, it was it was a I was actually very fond of having a uniform.
24:25
It simplified things dramatically.
24:26
So, I had this uniform and as part of the school, it was very much Where's Waldo in the sense that I could easily be spotted uh as the only American in this school 5,000 Japanese and everyone had to do bukatsu.
24:38
So, bukatsu could is uh after school activities. Exactly.
24:44
You have to choose a club.
24:44
It is mandatory or was at least at Seikei.
24:48
So, I had to choose between Well, the the clubs that were eager or interested in potentially having me were rugby.
24:54
It's like, all right, you're bigger than most first years, so that'll be an asset.
24:59
Kendo, which I was interested in already, and that's where I thought I was headed.
25:02
And then Judo approached me.
25:05
And Judo, I thought at the time, was very much like, say, Aikido, where it's some guy comes at you with this very exaggerated faux knife thrust, and then you whip him around and Steven Seagal him to the ground.
25:16
I was like, well, that's not terribly interesting to me, because from all the wrestling and so on that I've done, I'm more interested in a resisting opponent. And I was like, okay.
25:25
And then the Judo guys taught me or showed me very quickly that Judo is very much full contact, and really similar to wrestling.
25:33
And when, at the time, I couldn't read a single kanji, so the Chinese char- For people who are listening, Chinese characters adopted by the Japanese, uh had a basic grasp of the syllabaries of Japanese, so the hiragana and katakana, uh but otherwise was really at a where is the bathroom, thank you, good morning level of Japanese.
25:56
And it was it wasn't until I had the motivation to get better at Judo, and realized that the best textbooks were all in Japanese at the time, at least, and then had friends support me by pointing me to comic books that I could use to learn dialogue, that all the doors opened up, like you said.
26:15
And I I just want to speak in defense of Japanese people for a second here.
26:18
Which is to say that a lot of non-Japanese who visit Japan come back and they're like, "Ah, the the inscrutable Japanese, they're so xenophobic, and they're so hard to connect with."
26:30
And I don't think that's I don't think that's actually a fair assessment in most cases.
26:36
The Japanese, uh this is a bit of a rant, so bear with me, but when they were when, you know, the uh the gods of the universe were handing out phonemes and sounds, the Japanese got a pretty short hand.
26:49
They didn't get a lot of sounds, so Japanese are very insecure about their ability in other languages and have trouble, as most people know, distinguishing between L and R and so on.
27:01
And they they as a result have a very uh rote-driven approach to memorizing, say, vocab, but they shy away from speaking or trying to speak English.
27:13
And I think that is, at least in my experience, the main barrier.
27:15
As soon as you speak, even you can hold a 2-minute conversation or you have a a dozen phrases memorized.
27:23
I mean, they will literally clap their hands.
27:25
I mean, you've seen this. And go Whoa! Oh, Joe's into this now. Oh, Joe's into this now. Yeah, exactly.
27:32
And like the the the the response that you get is so exaggerated, uh but wonderful in Japan that as soon as as as you make the effort, like all of the doors open.
27:45
And it's just And so that's I'm going to shut up now, but the I just I I hate to hear the Japanese described as um so uh arms distance and so on from people who have not taken the time to learn even 10 words in Japanese. Sure. Sure.
28:07
but I So so I I get very excited when and I feel like there's someone who's had a similar experience.
28:12
So how how did the Blades then come into the picture?
28:18
Well, I just just before I get into that, I just wanted to comment on your experience in Japan and uh it's cool that we were in Japan at the same time because I've been there since 19 '88.
28:29
So in '92, uh you know, I was I was up up to my eyeballs in blade smithing and all sorts of other things.
28:37
Uh but I just wanted to say that your astute observations about the Japanese culture and and the the you picked up the language and these unique experiences you had uh it's commendable really because I think I think you you understand that of the
28:55
10 other thousand people who've had a similar experience to you, your your uh understanding and appreciation and comprehension of what you actually underwent and and the Japanese heart and the Japanese psyche uh the the the Shimaguni Konshin uh you you've uh it's really commendable. Your level of uh of appreciation for
29:18
Your level of uh of appreciation for what you underwent.
29:22
Yeah, I appreciate No, I appreciate it.
29:23
It was a complete life changer for me and fundamentally changed my entire trajectory and uh I'm still in touch with my my host family.
29:31
I had dinner with them uh about a month ago in Japan 20 wonderful. 25 years later.
29:37
Uh Well, I don't know if you know that uh day after tomorrow I'm actually going to Japan. I did not know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's for 9 days.
29:45
I've got Oh, that's exciting.
29:47
an appointment to buy a new power hammer and going to visit with some uh steel manufacturers and then do the regular rounds of Osaka, Sakai Kyoto, uh Fukui Prefecture up to see my teacher Mr.
30:00
Yasuyuki Sakemoto in Nagano and then back down to to Tokyo.
30:03
So, that's that's just around the corner for me. So jealous. So jealous. This is a nice warm up.
30:12
Uh and uh so so you you mentioned your teacher Yes.
30:17
your master I so you your knee is taken out Mhm.
30:21
you have a book kindly or aggressively tossed at you, not sure, but nonetheless uh is the is the tender for getting you to dip your toe in Japanese communication. Sure.
30:35
Well, I like the tender I like the tender uh example because it certainly it certainly ignited quite a passion in me and it certainly ignited that fuel.
30:45
and it certainly ignited that fuel. So, well, what happened was I think within the first day I was at the karate dojo, one of the fellow students there, Chikahiro I think his name was, he had a little scooter and you of course ubiquitous scooters all over Japan, the
31:01
little 50 cc scooters and he was kind enough since I had an international driver's license and was licensed to drive it even though I didn't have much experience on two wheels, he he let me borrow that scooter for a day, you know, in between karate the morning and the
31:15
evening karate class and I just, you know, bravely it's kind of crazy because I have no sense of direction and it was it it prior to the days of GPS, but I just intrepidly took that scooter and started driving around and I was probably into the third or fourth hour of my adventure wondering if
31:34
I was ever going to make it back to the karate dojo that I drove past a very intriguing and interesting building and I only caught it out of the corner of my eye because I was probably driving too fast and it inspired me to to put on the brakes and kind of think, what did I just see? And then I
31:53
And then I you know, check both ways and did a U-turn and and drove back to this building and it was kind of like a it was kind of like a moon, it was kind of like a gate and an archway where there was an entrance, a driveway entrance into an inner courtyard and beside the gate was a display window with this huge it's what they call a kujira bocho.
32:18
So, it's like a huge whale meat filleting knife and it was a display piece because of its monstrosity because because of its size and so it was pretty clear to me that there must be some knives beyond this gate.
32:33
So, I I kind of curiously went inside the courtyard and parked the the little scooter and and then there was these glass doors into a building and I kind of peered through the glass doors and I could see more knives on display shelves.
32:48
And so I think I probably knocked and then I and then I it was one of those squeaky, you know, those squeaky doors on the on the rollers, the sliding doors.
32:56
Yeah, of course they're all squeaky cuz they say that the the squeaky hinge gets the grease but that's not true in Japan.
33:05
They just say leave them squeaky.
33:08
So I so I I ventured in and I just kind of became just mesmerized by all of these wonderful blades in three directions.
33:15
There was just knives everywhere in two or three shelves all the way up to the ceiling.
33:20
There was a sushi knives and there was double bolt shows for you know, for breaking apart the fish and there was thin filleting knives and there was vegetable knives and there was paring knives and then there was all sorts of agricultural tools.
33:33
There was comma sickles and there was axes and there was different hatchets and and different types of hoes for like digging up the the yamaimo and and yeah, all sorts of fascinating things.
33:47
Tools I'd never even seen before.
33:50
I couldn't even identify.
33:50
And kind of I was always there looking at all these blades and I don't even know how much time passed by.
33:57
I'm guessing it was probably only a few minutes but I mean it could have been hours.
34:01
I was so lost in thought and just kind of just kind of absorb everything I was experiencing.
34:07
A man came in from the other side of the building and he he he looked at me and he he he saw I was a gaijin and he said "Hello."
34:15
And and I guess we we we talked for a few minutes and I tried to communicate cuz at this point you see I hadn't had the textbook tossed to me yet.
34:25
This this came before that.
34:27
This this was before I injured my knee.
34:30
It was literally the second day I was in Kumamoto.
34:34
And um and we talked for a few minutes and his wife brought out a couple of glasses of cold mugicha, which is Oh, it's my favorite thing in the world. Oh, you like mugicha?
34:45
I'm not too hot I'm not too fond of mugicha.
34:48
So, I'm a huge fan, yeah.
34:48
But okay, this was in the summer?
34:51
Buckwheat yeah, buckwheat tea because it was summer, so they serve it cold.
34:56
And this was literally uh this was literally in uh June.
34:59
Yeah, the late part late part of June. So, very hot.
35:05
Uh and after a few minutes of dialogue because he could speak a word or two of English.
35:12
And I think I asked, "Hey, can I come back sometime?"
35:13
And I think he said, "Dozo dozo itsudemo irasshai."
35:18
He said, "Come back whenever you want."
35:19
So, uh so that was like one of my first impressions of Japan.
35:22
And so weeks then I didn't visit him for many many weeks.
35:28
Uh and then when the textbook was tossed to me, I think something must have clicked cuz I thought, "That's the kind of person that if I could have deeper conversation with, I think it could be really rewarding."
35:38
And so that was one of the, you know, the the the as I said before, it was the tinder that fueled this desire and passion to to be a communicator.
35:48
Course the irony is having grown up in uh Nova Scotia, Canada in the '70s, uh we were all uh spoon-fed the French language as Canada's second language basically from grade one.
36:05
And uh I had developed quite a quite a uh what can I say?
36:09
I I I a complex about the French language because I never really learned much because I was the class clown and I was always standing out in the hallway while all the other kids were in the class actually learning something.
36:19
So, I managed to get myself uh kicked out of so many French classes that I I really didn't uh pick too much up.
36:29
So, when I was headed to Japan and people said, "Oh, Murray, you know, you should you should really try and learn Japanese when you're over there because when you come back, you could get any job you want."
36:36
And of course, that was in an era where Jap- everyone thought Japan Inc.
36:41
was going to take over the world and Japan was the focus of all the movies and of course, Die Hard was all about the Nakatomi building and the uh the the the decadence and opulence of these rich Japanese corporations where they had lifelong employment and it was really a quite an enigma and the world was fascinated by Japan and everyone thought that, you know, Japanese was going to be the uh it was when everyone had a Sony Walkman, right?
37:03
And they thought that uh Japanese was going to be the trade language in the world.
37:06
So, people said, "Oh, you're going to Japan?
37:11
Learn the Japanese language, you'll be set for life."
37:12
And I would agree with them, but it would went in one ear out the other cuz I'm mumbling to myself under my breath like, "Yeah, right.
37:19
I can't even speak a word of French and I've been exposed to it for 12 years.
37:23
You expect me to learn Japanese?
37:23
That's such a foreign language with a different alphabet.
37:28
I mean, come on, get serious."
37:30
So, so, I really didn't have any expectations of learning the language and that turned out to be the blessing in disguise in so much that I just thought, "Well, if I could just learn one word today. Just one word.
37:43
Just Just how to say thank you or or to say, actually, no, thank you."
37:48
I remember when someone tried to feed me raw fish liver and I and I didn't couldn't say no, thank you. So, I had to eat it.
37:54
And I thought, "I'm going home tonight.
37:54
I'm going to open up that textbook and find out where it says how to politely refuse raw fish liver."
38:00
So, and it was from a fugu, nonetheless. Oh, sh- oh, god. Yeah. So, yeah, blowfish.
38:07
You got to be careful with the blowfish. Yeah.
38:11
So, because I didn't have any preconceived notion of what I should or shouldn't be able to achieve in the language, I just literally took it one word at a time and took great delight and great pleasure in the new word that I would learn each day.
38:27
And so you so you now flash forward, you have this textbook.
38:30
When did you go back to visit the uh knife shop again?
38:37
Or or or what happened when you went back?
38:40
It's a great question and of course I ended up spending a lot of time there, so that's a question I should be able to answer.
38:45
Uh I'm just going to I'm just going to make it up cuz I can't remember exactly, but I stayed in Japan that first stint for 9 months.
38:56
And first it was with karate and then I met the Japanese bladesmith and then I delved in a whole bunch of different things and then I went back to to North America and enrolled at advanced reading and writing Japanese at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada.
39:11
I took 4 years of study in 12 academic months and then I went back to Japan.
39:18
And and and that's when I immediately went to Mr.
39:21
Sakimoto and said, "I'm back.
39:23
I speak the language now and I really want to learn about bladesmithing."
39:26
I may or may not have met him a couple of other times during that first 9-month stint, but honestly, I don't remember.
39:33
Okay, so I want to hit hit pause to dig into one thing that you just said because it's fascinating.
39:38
Did you just say you took 4 years of academic course course load in in 12 months? Yes, exactly. Yeah.
39:47
so just so former class clown is that a superhuman feat?
39:51
Did you just go to class all day every day?
39:53
How did you go about What were the keys to getting that done? Sure. Sure.
40:00
So So when I went for an interview with the dean of the the Japanese studies program, Mr.
40:04
Hiro Soga at the time who had actually also written most of the textbooks in the day.
40:11
Uh I immediately took my interview with him in broken Japanese and I said, "Please, please, please, let me take the 200-level classes, both the reading and writing and the conversation."
40:22
And he And as I was as I was trying to have a conversation with him, he was correcting every second word I said.
40:29
He said He kept telling me, "Grammar is everything."
40:33
I said, "Come on, you understand what I'm saying."
40:34
He says, "Yes, but but the big difference between I want to eat and I've eaten."
40:37
And and and so tense is everything.
40:40
So, we came up So, he was very gracious and he said, "Listen, if you study through the first year or 100-level textbooks in the next month and bring me evidence that you've done all the exercises and and and and pass some verbal examinations, then I'll also let you enroll immediately in the second-year classes."
41:03
So, for the So, I immediately enrolled in 200-level classes while on the side I was also completing all the course material for the 100-level or first-year classes.
41:12
So, by the time if I enrolled in September, by the time the end of October came along in 2 months I had finished all of those 100-level class uh you know workbooks and passed his his his expectations and I was getting A's in my 200-level classes.
41:29
So, I took you know the reading and writing and then the conversation class from September until probably April when the university academic year ends.
41:41
And then I enrolled in the spring 6-weeks intensive of 300-level classes.
41:47
And then when they finished, I took the 6-week intensive uh 400-level classes, which was you know reading Japanese newspapers and you know conducting business in Japanese and honorifics and so on.
41:59
So, that's that's how I managed to do all four years study in 12 calendar months.
42:05
So, this was before you really took a deep dive with the Bladesmithing.
42:10
So, what So, what was driving that that motivation to do so much and to really get after it?
42:19
Was it the "Hey, Japan's going to take over the world."
42:22
Was that an element of it?
42:22
Was it an inexplicable having caught some type of idea virus that you just couldn't kick related to Japan, but you Was Did you know how you were going to use it?
42:32
I know there's a I'm throwing out a lot here, but what was driving that uh studiousness?
42:38
Because that wasn't that that isn't how it sounds like your academic career started.
42:42
So, what what what what was driving that?
42:45
Well, I I want to be cute and say that Japan had taken over my world.
42:47
Uh I wasn't so concerned about it taking over anybody else's.
42:53
Uh When I When I went to Japan, something very uh magical happened.
42:57
You know, the the advice or the adage for for youngsters for decades or even centuries has been, you know, "Go it on your own and find your own fame and fortune."
43:07
You know, and I Well, I certainly hadn't found fame nor fortune.
43:11
What I did find in Japan was uh a part of me that I never knew existed.
43:17
As I mentioned before, you know, I had I had grown up with a a tremendous complex when it came to languages.
43:26
Uh I had never really excelled at sports.
43:27
Uh I felt in many ways that I probably hadn't lived up to my own father's expectations as as the only boy because I, you know, I I wasn't doing baseball or soccer or any of the other things that all the other boys were interested in.
43:42
I spent most of my childhood inside watching TV and playing with LEGO and just wanting to to do things with my hands.
43:50
So, when I went to Japan and then found out I had that this latent skill for languages, and I made all sorts of new friends, and and nobody was judging me based on what I had accomplished thus far in my life, and it was just all new fresh relationships.
44:06
Uh I really was in many ways able to reinvent myself and and uh and it wasn't so much that I was reinventing myself as I was discovering parts of myself that I never knew existed and uh I think that for any young person, you know, whether it's uh a musical instrument or a language uh or a sport or really
44:30
anything that they dedicate themselves to and and gain a certain proficiency in that that kind of skill can give a young person so much confidence and open up so many other doors for them and uh really be one of the greatest stepping stones from which, you know, to launch the rest of your life, you know, to step out into life on. So, as I was learning the
44:49
So, as I was learning the Japanese language and getting tremendously positive feedback, as you mentioned, from Japanese people cuz they were just so uh and this is in the '80s before you know, foreigners had really penetrated every corner of of Japan and I was down in Kyushu and I remember if I saw a foreigner on the street, I would go ah gaijin da gaijin da because I never saw them there.
45:11
I mean, now they're you see you see foreigners everywhere, but back in those late '80s, it wasn't so common.
45:19
So, you know, I got tremendously positive feedback from the people around me.
45:22
I started new friendships and and uh they encouraged me in my language study and and and I think for the first time in my life I remember having feelings like, "Wow, you know, I've got I've got some skills.
45:34
I can really be somebody. This is great.
45:36
I I really want to see how far I can take this."
45:38
And it gave me drive and kind of passion and uh dedication that I never knew I possessed before.
45:47
I In fact, I thought I was kind of a quitter going growing up because I mean, that's what everyone all the adult influences around me said.
45:52
I was a quitter and that I'd amount to nothing.
45:56
So, uh I was quite delighted to to find out that might not be true.
46:01
Yeah, what a great story.
46:01
I uh I think I'm not going to say the exact same, but I've I'm very very parallel experience, and I I really shudder to think what my life would be like had I not had that year abroad, which is very uncommon, or I should say less common in the US than many other places where a gap year is encouraged.
46:23
And I've thought I don't have kids, but I've thought about if I would have any non-negotiables that I would insist on if I had kids, and the only two that I've really been able to come up with in terms of experiences are sports uh of some type, and could be something that is thought of as unathletic, but let's just call it sports, and then a gap year or a year of traveling in a foreign environment uh because of everything that you just said.
46:51
I I think it's just such an incredible opportunity to find yourself and find your own confidence.
46:57
Uh so so let's let's I'd love to jump to uh Now, you mentioned honorifics.
47:03
So, for people who don't know what that is, um there are many different levels of many different ways to speak or write or communicate with another I was going to say another Japanese person, but let's say a Japanese person depending on how old they are, depending on where they rank relative to you, even in say a school environment, you would have uh senpai, like the upperclassman above you, and then the kohai below you, and so on.
47:31
And And it determines what type of grammar, in some cases, you use.
47:34
And I was going to ask you, could we uh I I'd love to hear when you then came back to Yos- uh Yoshimoto-san.
47:44
Some people have heard san before, s a n. Mhm.
47:46
And then above that you would have, let's say, sama, right?
47:48
And then below that, let's say you're talking to uh a friend or a younger kid, you might say kun, or you could even use chan, which is uh kind of similar to that.
47:58
What is the proper suffix for a master bladesmith?
48:05
Would Would you Would you When you would Would you formally refer Is there a uh sort of a master suffix that you would use for Mr.
48:11
Yoshimoto or is it or is it simply Yoshimoto san?
48:17
Well, uh most commonly, we just use the word sensei. Sensei.
48:20
Okay, Yoshimoto Yoshimoto sensei. That's right.
48:24
So, so school teacher or politician or professor at university or uh you know, master in the forge is sensei. Mhm.
48:35
And for for For people who are language nerds, just because I don't get a chance to explore this very much on many of my podcasts.
48:42
So, sensei is a really interesting word to look at or suffix to look at literally because you have sing, which is before, uh and then say, which is born.
48:55
And in effect, it But in Chinese, it's totally different.
49:01
It it It's literally it means mister.
49:04
So, you would say like chang xian sheng. Xian sheng is mister.
49:07
So, you don't use it for say a woman.
49:12
Uh in the same way that uh oddly enough, like tegami, which is kind of hand paper, means letter in Japanese, but in Chinese or in Mandarin, shouzhi shouzhi is toilet paper.
49:25
So, There There are a lot of things that are the same in both and a lot of things that are very very different. So, how did Mr.
49:31
Uh Yoshimoto sensei, how did he reenter the picture for you?
49:36
Well, uh first of all, yeah, uh I want to clarify one thing.
49:38
That I am 17th generation Yoshimoto bladesmith, but my teacher's name is Sakamoto. Ah, okay, got it.
49:45
All right, so I I I need to And just for your And just for your uh listeners' uh pleasure, if they're interested in in the content of this podcast, they can go to YouTube and see the history of the Yoshimoto Bladesmiths uh by on Carter Cutlery's channel and you can see how Yoshimoto became Sakimoto cuz that in itself is a very interesting story.
50:12
But my teacher's name is uh Sakimoto Sensei. I got it.
50:14
Okay, so Sakimoto Sensei within the umbrella or later than becoming or how that became We we might delve into that. But so Sakimoto Sensei. Yes.
50:25
Uh let's Could you tell us more about like when it clicked? What what happened?
50:31
Like when did How did you because ultimately I don't want to give away the punchline, but we're talking about I want to say See if I can get this part right. 18 years in Japan? Yes. All right.
50:43
there 18 years and I so I apprenticed with Mr. Sakimoto for 6 years.
50:48
Uh and then basically I was asked by him to take over the family business.
50:53
He had two daughters and no sons and and no hopeful apprentices apart from myself.
51:00
And I guess I had demonstrated a certain attitude and aptitude for the you know for the family trade that he asked me to assume the the position of 17th generation Yoshimoto Bladesmith.
51:16
Uh he was a very He is because he's in the I'm going to see him next week.
51:20
He is a very extraordinary human being and very uh untraditional in the way we had a relationship of apprentice and Sensei.
51:36
And he was not strict as you would imagine.
51:38
People think of you know the Karate Kid, wax on wax off and standing there for hours on end doing things that menial tasks that the apprentice thinks and thinks must be meaningless and he's just being tested and he's just having to sweep the floor, you know, to do the uh the grunt labor for for the teacher and starting to feel unappreciated and and abused and so on.
52:02
Uh that was not my story. Mr.
52:02
Sakimoto was very gracious and uh he would share with me all of his skills up front.
52:09
Uh and of course I could only comprehend so many so I would go and practice things he showed me and then he would show me more things.
52:17
But once we got to a certain point where he felt he had shared uh all of the essential bladesmithing and sharpening techniques with me that he regularly practiced he did something out of the ordinary.
52:29
He said he said, "Murray, you know, if you if you really want to learn about forge welding, you know, I'm going to arrange for you to go down to Kawashiri and uh and spend some time down there because that's their area of expertise."
52:44
And so I would go down to Kawashiri and in fact I would kind of went off and on down to Kawashiri for a couple of years and mastered the technique of forge welding and then Mr.
52:51
And I would always come back to Sakimoto's forge and use it as my home base and always apply and put into practice what I'd learned there and elsewhere at the home forge.
53:03
And then he would say, "You know, you you really need to learn about uh about the uh the traditional Japanese fishmonger's knives, the kataha, the deba bocho, and the sashimi knife, and all those two little they are special kind of chisel ground blades.
53:16
So you should go to Osaka uh you know, a little special place called Sakai where they specialize in that skill."
53:22
And so off I went to to Sakai for for several weeks and and I would be hooked up with some some very again gracious bladesmiths there and I would learn their trade and I'd come back to Kumamoto to Sakimoto's shop and and and then light the fire and try to emulate or put into practice the things I'd learned and I'd show them to him.
53:44
He said, "Okay, you know, you're you're now you're getting somewhere and I think now you you need to learn a little bit about marketing and the overall, you know, financial aspect of running a business making knives.
53:54
So, you need to go to Seki City, Japan because those guys are really savvy businessman when it comes to the cutlery industry up there.
54:00
So, off I would go to Seki City, Japan and learn what I could up there and then again, always come back to Mr.
54:05
Sakamoto and then apply what I had learned."
54:07
So, he he was he taught me many important things, but he also coached me and he was a very gracious coach and never cruel or strict or punitive uh even when he probably should have been.
54:26
Uh but very very kind and the most tolerant and understanding and patient uh sensei you could ever have asked for.
54:37
That's such an amazing opportunity. Just incredible.
54:40
What What for people who are listening and I'll be honest, I would say I'm in this group as well, who don't don't know the steps involved with uh say Japanese bladesmithing.
54:53
Uh don't even know what forge welding is, which I would certainly raise my hand.
55:01
Uh as it relates to that.
55:04
Could you describe uh what makes Japanese bladesmithing Japanese bladesmithing.
55:11
So, people people there's a road there's a certainly a uh a a sort of prized uh quality that goes along with Japanese knives.
55:25
I I wrote a book related to cooking and learning sometime ago called the 4-Hour Chef and I spent a lot of time with with high-end chefs around the United States, in San Francisco, New York City and so on.
55:33
And they almost every single one has at least one Japanese knife that they treat like a Lamborghini.
55:38
It's only taken out for special occasions.
55:40
It's meticulously cared for.
55:42
Could you describe the the steps in making a knife in the Japanese style and and what is unique about it?
55:53
Sure, you know, there there's so much to to to say on that topic.
55:57
I'll just try to keep it concise and interesting for your listeners.
56:01
First of all, there's kind of a fundamental kind of philosophical difference between what I'm just going to loosely term Western cutlery and Japanese cutlery.
56:09
And you know, everybody knows from movies like Kill Bill and and so on just to how revered the samurai sword can be.
56:16
People even know that often they were christened with their own names.
56:20
And you know, considered by their owners to have legendary qualities.
56:26
Some of the big philosophical differences are that you know, Western culture puts a high value on something being kind of durable and strong and tough and robust.
56:41
And as a result as that kind of extends to cutlery, we end up with a lot of Western blades that are kind of sharpened tools and they're robust and they're durable and you can use them for a multitude of different things, but fine cutting implements we would not call them.
56:58
We would call them sharpened tools.
57:01
By contrast, the Japanese blades, at least the best Japanese blades that come from Japan are considered to be precision cutting implements and they are designed and built and forged and quenched and tempered with cutting performance utmost in mind at the cost of everything else.
57:22
So because of that philosophical difference, there's a lot of mechanical differences in how the blades are made and the mindset of the bladesmith making them.
57:35
From the materials that are chosen to forge the blades, from the fuel fuels in the fire that's used to heat the steel to forge it, the manner in which it is forged, the medium in which it's quenched, the dimensions to which it's ground, the effort to which it's the final cutting or primary edge is honed, is all affected or influenced by this philosophical ideological difference between what the blades are supposed to be able to do in the end. Mhm.
58:10
And could you describe some of these steps like the for instance, I don't actually really know what forging is or involves or quenching or tempering.
58:16
I I really don't know what what that looks like.
58:21
Could you describe the process if from from ground zero when you're considering making a knife, what does the process look like? Sure.
58:30
Well, I'll I'll try to share with you what I've learned in having forged and completed over 24,000 blades in my career and a lot of the things that I've realized have have have come about at certain times of of my of my experience and I'm sure by the time I've made 50,000 of them, I might have a slightly different outlook all together.
58:50
But so one of the primary differences between a western blade and a Japanese high performance blade is the use of laminates.
58:58
Most western blades are homogeneous in construction meaning they're either all carbon steel from the spine all the way down to the cutting edge of the blade or they're all stainless steel, but throughout they're the same kind of steel.
59:12
They're all manufactured from one solid billet of homogeneous steel.
59:19
By in in in contrast, the Japanese blades are almost always a combination of two or more different kind of steels.
59:27
And so, uh you've heard the expression have your cake and eat it, too.
59:32
Well, if you combine a hard and a soft steel together in the same package or in the same blade, the hard steel can be really hard and and and and contribute to superior cutting performance, and the soft steel can be left soft so that it's super tough, shock-absorbing, uh uh avoiding breakage, and also easy to sharpen.
59:58
It's very difficult to get the qualities of soft steel and hard steel out of a homogeneous blade because it's all the same.
1:00:05
So, right away we're starting with a different blade construction, and that's a that's a laminate.
1:00:10
The most common blade construction in in in Japanese cutlery is a three-layer blade construction, often referred to as a san mai, which means three layer or three three sheet style construction where the center of the laminate is the hard steel that's going to become the sharpened cutting edge, like the lead in a pencil.
1:00:37
And the outer laminates are a softer either mild steel or a soft stainless, and they they strengthen, toughen, cushion, and make the blade easy to sharpen, and very much act like the wood on the outside of the lead inside of the pencil, and they support it. That's the most common.
1:00:57
There's two-layer construction, and then there's a sword construction, which is where the hard steel wraps around a soft center core.
1:01:05
And then you can have Damascus style construction where you've got hundreds of different layers all in different different kind of constructs for either visual effect or metallurgical effect, but the laminated blade does give you the best of both worlds.
1:01:20
It does allow you to have your cake and eat it, too, because you can have a really high Rockwell uh hardness core that uh means it can take a razor sharp edge and hold that edge for a long time, but avoid the uh pitfall of being brittle because the outer softer laminates support it and keep it keep the whole blade from fracturing. Right.
1:01:45
And how does one make such a knife?
1:01:45
What is the uh what is what are the steps involved? Yeah.
1:01:51
So, you achieve a laminated blade through a process called forge welding.
1:01:56
And, you know, everyone knows if you hear the word uh welding, you think of like a MIG or a TIG or an inert gas welder uh and a big spark and a bright light.
1:02:05
Uh but, there's literally uh you know, there's lots of different types of welding.
1:02:11
There's ultrasound welding, there's welding with explosives, uh uh welding through friction, and so on.
1:02:18
But, forge welding is is the oldest form of welding known to mankind, and that's when you take two metals that have similar uh temperature ranges, uh and you heat them up until the molecules on the surface of each metal start to uh liquefy,
1:02:36
and uh then you join the two you you you you you press the two together, and if you're at the right temperature and you have clean surfaces, you can actually get the molecules from each surface of the metal to intermingle and fuse together. Uh in layman's terms, it's like taking
1:02:50
Uh in layman's terms, it's like taking two candles uh that are cold and hard, and you would heat up each end over a flame source until the the end of the candle just started to liquefy, and then if you touch the ends of both candles together at the same time, uh in an ideal uh situation, you would end up with one big long candle once it cooled down, because the the the wax would would intermingle and mix. Right.
1:03:17
It's different than melting or it's fusing is different than melting the metals together where you would basically make them to melt the two dissimilar metals molten and basically mix them up in a pot like you would stir chocolate milk powder into into a glass of chocolate milk.
1:03:34
It's not that kind of mixing.
1:03:34
It's it's fusing them together in such a way that each unique layer still maintains its original characteristics. Right.
1:03:44
And so that's done in a forge.
1:03:44
And a forge is a source of heat.
1:03:47
We have gas forges, we have electric forges, and then we have what I use which is a solid fuel forge.
1:03:57
What does solid fuel mean?
1:03:59
So I burn up coke in my forge spoonfuls at a time. What is what is coke?
1:04:08
Are we talking Coca-Cola, cocaine, something else?
1:04:11
Yeah, yeah, and I just purchased four tons of coke the other day.
1:04:15
Coke is, all joking aside, it's it's coal as they dig it up from the ground and then it's heated once in the absence of oxygen and it drives off all the impurities, namely phosphorus and sulfur, which are combustible gases, but that are very undesirable when it comes to heating steel to make knives.
1:04:37
So so coal, excuse me, coke is to coal what charcoal is to wood. I see. Got it.
1:04:46
it's purified carbon because all the volatile gases have been driven off. How is that spelled? Coke? C O K E Oh, it is. All right.
1:04:55
Yeah, I was going to say a couple of tons of coke unless you have a very sophisticated drug smuggling operation and a huge budget, it's probably something Yeah, yeah, well. so that is solid fuel. That's right. That's solid fuel forge.
1:05:07
So you're you're fusing these different layers together and maintaining the the integrity in the sense that the separation of these layers so you can design a knife that allows you to have your cake and eat it, too. What happens after that?
1:05:22
So, once you've successfully forge welded your different layers of steel together, then you need to forge that billet, which is what it's called, into a blade shape.
1:05:35
And some blades are are are are wide and and short and some are narrow and long in the case of a slicing knife, some are thicker and some are thinner.
1:05:45
And you can set out from your billet to forge really any kind of blade you desire providing you've got enough material to make the blade you're setting out to make.
1:05:56
And it involves heating the steel to a plastic state, which is usually around 800° C.
1:06:05
Because I was in Japan and I was in Canada, for me everything's That's okay. That's all right.
1:06:09
translate to Fahrenheit very well, but I think it's something like 1350° F.
1:06:14
But it's it's it's what steel it's what when you're at a campfire and you see the orange coals down at the very bottom, they're not bright yellow, they're just kind of like a really bright orange color.
1:06:23
That's about 800° C and that's the color we want the steel to be when we start hammering it.
1:06:30
It's very pliable in that state.
1:06:32
You don't want to heat the steel hotter than that because you can literally burn the steel and and ruin it.
1:06:41
And you you start hammering it and and if you have enough force with a with a hammer, you you can force it into different you can you can coax the steel into different shapes, obviously.
1:06:52
I mean, blacksmiths have been doing that for for for millennia.
1:06:57
The big difference is is as a new bladesmith one is overly focused on getting the right shape.
1:07:06
Somewhere along the line, somewhere between 15,000 and and 20,000 blades, uh I realized that something more important was happening when I was forging the steel.
1:07:18
And that was uh grain refinement.
1:07:22
Uh as it turns out that if you heat your steel, your your your laminate, your billet of steel to that 800° and then hammer the steel as it's cooling, you're actually refining the grain in the steel, which would can result in a higher performing blade.
1:07:42
So, even if you start out if you make two different blades, even out of the same steel, how you heat the steel and how you hammer it and how sequentially you heat the steel will will result in two entirely different quality of blades.
1:08:00
And when you say grain, I'm thinking of cutting against the grain or with the grain in say cutting steak.
1:08:07
Is it Is it a direction of fibers in the steel itself?
1:08:09
Or how What's the best way to think of refining grain? Yeah.
1:08:15
So, uh if you've ever fractured a piece of metal and then looked at it, it's quite likely, even if it was aluminum or whatever, you you look at the the the metal fractured surface and it looks like little grains of sand. It It looks granular.
1:08:31
And sometimes it looks very very like fi- finely granular and you have to look very closely to discern like different bumps in the fractured surface.
1:08:41
And sometimes it's it's very coarse.
1:08:46
And basically, steel has grain, which you can think of like marbles or BBs or grains of sand.
1:08:55
And the finer they are and more evenly dispersed they are throughout the steel matrix or throughout the billet, the finer of a cutting implement will result. Mhm. Got it.
1:09:09
The reason is is it's not the grains themselves that make steel strong, but the grain boundaries.
1:09:18
So, where one grain touches another grain, there's something about that boundary uh complexity that that increases the strength of steel.
1:09:28
So, the finer grain you can achieve in steel, the more grain boundary that results and therefore a better end product.
1:09:36
Now, you have, as you said, forged or produced somewhere along the lines of 24,000 blades, and you spent 18 years in Japan.
1:09:48
And yet, this is this is another part of your story or life that really grabbed my attention.
1:09:52
You hold classes or workshops where people can come in and over the course of a week or a few days walk away with a blade.
1:10:02
Is that Is that Is that a fair to say? Oh, yeah.
1:10:06
Yeah, been doing that for 5 or 6 years now.
1:10:08
So, after putting in the amount of time to master your craft that you've put in, what does the curriculum look like for, say, a 2- or 3-day class?
1:10:19
Because you've clearly put so much thought into this.
1:10:24
How do you How do you teach this?
1:10:24
Like, what And I always think about sequencing, right?
1:10:28
When you're learning a language, how you provide positive feedback, but balance that with some kind of logical progression that is that is graspable.
1:10:37
Uh What is What does such a class look like when you're teach when you're teaching it? Sure. Sure, fair enough.
1:10:44
Because the way we've talked about 24,000 blades in 18 years, it sounds daunting and impossible to learn anything important in such a short time frame as 1 week.
1:10:53
Uh but fortunately, that's not true.
1:10:59
Bladesmithing is not rocket science, and a lot of the mystique and lore of bladesmithing uh, is simply because uh, a lot of the obvious things about blades are are hidden in plain sight and not often revealed and not often taught.
1:11:19
Now, what I mean by that, let me quantify that.
1:11:23
Uh, the main skill that I uh, teach or confer in a short amount of time is I teach students how to use their eyes.
1:11:35
And how to see what's actually there.
1:11:38
Now, obviously, we were talking earlier about grain and steel and so on, and we don't actually get out microscopes and look at that, but uh, I teach them to see if blades are straight.
1:11:47
I can teach them to see if the blades have the profiles that they're looking for as they grind the blades.
1:11:53
Uh, I teach them to to uh, pinpoint area trouble areas and then pinpoint the the uh, remedy for that, like with grinders or a hammer or a file or whatnot.
1:12:08
But, I teach them and through uh, uh, repetition I teach them to start to rely upon their eyes and to trust their eyes, so that when they actually see something they know what they're really looking at.
1:12:19
And in terms of the metallurgy, after we forge and and anneal and quench and then temper blades and then grind them, I teach them simple things like uh, how to test to see if an edge uh, if the uh, edge of the blade or if the whole blade actually hardened by cutting into other metal objects.
1:12:36
I teach them to to to uh, do a rudimentary test to see uh, if they've got fine grain and if they quenched at the right temperature and tempered it properly.
1:12:46
When if they push a thin edge against an object like a brass rod, they should be able to see the edge flex, and then when the pressure's removed, they should see that flexed portion spring back to a true edge again.
1:13:00
And then last but not least, uh you know, part of what we do is we we always we place a a lot of emphasis on hand sharpening of the knives on sharpening stones.
1:13:11
And I teach them to pay attention to how the blade that they forged and heat treated, how it feels on the stone when they're sharpening it.
1:13:20
So, between a sense of uh touch and feel and using one's eyesight, it's actually a remarkable testament to the human condition to report just how much the average student can learn in the space of a week.
1:13:39
It It's really remarkable.
1:13:41
And if if you were looking back at the students you've taught, the people you've encountered in the process of of teaching and making knives, uh certainly, if you were in charge of talent scouting, let's just treat it as like the Oakland Athletics uh moneyball type approach.
1:13:59
Your job is to put together a slightly different, but you're you're trying to put together a team of people who have the potential to be great bladesmiths. Mhm.
1:14:10
What are the attributes that you're looking for to put together that team?
1:14:15
Like how would you try to spot the potential for someone who can be great at this?
1:14:20
What are What are the patterns you've noticed or things you've observed?
1:14:24
Well, that's a very timely question, Tim, because we're actually are actively growing Carter Cutlery, and as we spent the last week hiring our our 10th employee.
1:14:33
So, very timely question.
1:14:33
I look for two very specific things.
1:14:36
I look for aptitude and attitude.
1:14:42
And the aptitude is uh uh, you know, somebody's ability to acquire new skills or to use the skills that they already have.
1:14:54
And I look for attitude, which is a willingness to learn, a willingness to to to to be humble, a willingness to to stick to something once you've decided that that's what you're going to do. So, stick-to-itiveness.
1:15:10
Uh, and a willingness to to work in a team environment.
1:15:12
So, those two qualities specifically are what I'm looking for.
1:15:20
So, on the I suppose the aptitude side of things, the ability to learn, the ability to be humble, the ability to stick, so the stick-to-itiveness and the teamwork, how do you test for that?
1:15:31
In other words, uh, how do you determine if someone has that or not? The The attitude? The attitude? Yeah, I yes, exactly. Any of those things.
1:15:44
In other words, if if if you're looking at it as a hiring process, so some people use interviews, some people use test projects for hiring for many different skills.
1:15:56
How do you determine if someone has the capacity to learn, the ability to be humble, stick to something and work in a team? Yeah.
1:16:05
Unfortunately, I found that the only accurate way to make that assessment is to put the candidate in the actual work environment. Mhm.
1:16:17
Uh, because two things can happen.
1:16:17
Uh, uh, people who claim to have great aptitude and attitude will reveal that they actually, uh, aren't that, uh, uh, equipped for for that position.
1:16:35
And conversely, people who think they might be, once they get into that environment and then encouraged in the right way and surrounded by the right kind of people uh and with the right can can actually develop a healthier mindset that they than they better than they even came into the interview with. Mhm.
1:16:56
That that can be nurtured.
1:16:56
So, I think the the the best solution is to get the applicant in the uh the the working environment and then just work with them as closely as possible and encourage them in every way you can and uh be in constant uh uh you know, communication with them.
1:17:15
And I think usually within a week or two you you have a a much better idea than just simply an interview or a or viewing the portfolio or reading a resume alone can provide. For sure.
1:17:29
Yeah, and for those people listening who who would like to explore this aspect of business meaning hiring or even more specifically auditioning people, Matt Mullenweg who's been on the podcast, CEO of Automatic, thought of as the lead developer of WordPress, uh has a very very fascinating process for auditioning people whether they are the the uh entry-level customer support or a CFO, uh the process is remarkably similar.
1:17:57
So, that's worth worth digging into.
1:17:58
I have a couple of questions that are uh really not organized by any particular theme.
1:18:03
I'm just curious to know the answers.
1:18:04
So, the first is in many knives that are supposedly Japanese style that you can buy easily in the West you find these dimples on the sides of the knives and sometimes they're called Santoku, sometimes they're called something else.
1:18:22
What is the function of What are the functions of those dimples? Do they matter? Are they done well?
1:18:27
Uh how should how should someone think about those if they really have no familiarity with knives?
1:18:35
Okay, well, I I think what you might be referring to are are kind of like a hammered texture into the upper surface of the blade and sometimes uh what you might be referring to is I think is what's called a granton edge where this the steel is actually scalloped out. That's right.
1:18:51
Yeah, so it looks like a uh I think it's concave.
1:18:53
I think I'm getting this right.
1:18:55
Uh say ellipse or a semi-circular carve out and across the blade.
1:19:03
Henckels is well known for that.
1:19:03
They put out a kind of a Japanese style Santoku shaped blade that has a a granton edge where right behind the primary cutting edge of the blade are these scalloped out depressions in the blade. That's right. That's right. Yeah.
1:19:22
And the concept is is that when you're cutting something that has a high moisture content like cucumbers or tomatoes or whatnot uh rather than sticking to the blade and then being pushed up by subsequent slices to the top of the spine of the blade and then being bopped off the blade and rolling off the table and onto the floor, the idea is as you're cutting the cut material will separate more easily from the from the secondary edge of the blade.
1:19:49
Uh in concept it's it it it can work.
1:19:53
I don't like it for several reasons.
1:19:55
First of all, if you have a blade that is thick enough behind the cutting edge to grind in scalloped indentations, for me that means the blade simply too thick. Right.
1:20:06
Because the thicker of the blade, the more resistance it is to to push the blade through things.
1:20:10
Many people need to understand that uh when we think of the word sharp and blade there's actually two phenomena.
1:20:18
There's the primary edge which is the part of the blade everyone thinks of when we think of sharp that initiates the cut.
1:20:26
It's the part that, you know, goes into your finger first before you see the blood.
1:20:29
Uh and then there's the secondary edge, which is the geometry of steel behind the primary edge.
1:20:35
And the secondary edge is what becomes consequential when you're actually trying to push the blade through things.
1:20:44
Whether it's an acorn squash or a big thick rubber stall mat, you know, like that you might be standing on your shop to to save wear and tear on your feet.
1:20:53
If you're trying to or or or or thick shoe leather, if you try to push a blade through things, then what's going on in the secondary edge is absolutely important.
1:21:04
As much if not more important than the sharpness of the primary edge.
1:21:08
And in cooking, we often need to push the blade all the way through things, whether it's cucumber, carrot, apple, potato, whatnot.
1:21:14
So, the thinner the blade, the better.
1:21:18
So, if you've got a blade that's got great on edges on it, your blade's simply too thick.
1:21:22
And one of the first things we do to remedy that when blades like that come into our shop for sharpening, refurbishment, or repair, is we grind the blade down, you know, by a certain percentage, and remove some of those great on edges, but it the resulting the thinness of the blade greatly enhances the cutting performance.
1:21:42
The other thing I don't like about those is they they they're not necessarily sanitary.
1:21:46
You know, that's that's an area where bacteria and food particles can hide out in.
1:21:52
And in an ideal world, a a blade for culinary use is very clean on both the primary and secondary surfaces.
1:22:01
So, that once you're finished using it, you simply put it in a cloth, and with one swipe, you can get the blade completely clean.
1:22:08
So, it's very low effort to keep it clean and sanitary. Makes perfect sense.
1:22:15
Uh Okay, so, having spent so much time in Japan, I would love to know if you have any favorite any Japanese sayings or mantras or anything that have really stuck with you.
1:22:29
And I'll give people just a few examples of uh proverbs for instance like kotowaza.
1:22:34
So there there are some great ones in English as well of course, but you have uh like saru mo ki kara ochiru, right?
1:22:43
So even a monkey falls from a tree which means it doesn't really matter like how how good you get, you can still fall on your face in effect.
1:22:49
There are other uses also, but then you have something that is actually pretty similar to uh tall poppy syndrome in say New Zealand and Australia where people who stick out too much uh can be pulled down.
1:23:00
And that's deru kui wa utareru, right?
1:23:02
So the the the stake that sticks up gets hammered down.
1:23:07
So if you stand up you could be criticized.
1:23:09
One that is great that uh I really like also is shiranu ga hotoke.
1:23:16
So the not not knowing is Buddha literally, but it's ignorance is bliss basically or what you what you don't know can't hurt you.
1:23:22
Uh is there anything Are there any uh sayings in Japanese or principles that have really stuck with you?
1:23:34
You know Tim, you and I are really two birds of a feather.
1:23:37
We share so many similarities and and kotowaza was one of my areas of I was kind of considered a a nerd during Japanese language study at at University of British Columbia because I loved coming in with new kotowazas to share with everybody, but one of my favorites is isogaba maware. Okay.
1:23:54
Meaning meaning when you feel yourself in a great hurry and a kind of a panic to get things done, that's the time to take a moment and regroup and take a deep breath and uh really uh get your footing and make sure that you're making good decisions.
1:24:09
So I really like that one.
1:24:12
I like uh ishibashi o tataite wataru.
1:24:15
Uh being very proceeding so cautiously as to tap with a stick every single stone in the stone bridge as you cross it just to make sure the stone bridge isn't going to fall down while while you're on it.
1:24:30
Uh so it's it's used often to to illustrate an extreme level of caution and prudence.
1:24:37
And do you apply that in your life to knife making, to other things?
1:24:40
Where would you Where does that come to mind for you most?
1:24:46
Uh making business decisions. I got it. Okay, right.
1:24:47
So definitely measure twice, cut once with Yeah, exactly. Mhm. Yeah.
1:24:53
Except that would be This would be like measure 10 times. Right.
1:24:56
Some Sometimes it's used to sarcastically for someone who's so cautious as that they they become petrified from doing anything, you know. Right.
1:25:05
I also like Awatezu Aserazu Isogae.
1:25:11
It's It's And this is a special one in the cutlery industry, which is uh you know, don't don't panic. Don't be in a rush. But get the job done.
1:25:25
What was the What was the first one that you mentioned?
1:25:27
The when when you feel Isogaba Mawatte. Isogaba Mawatte.
1:25:32
That's That's such a good one.
1:25:35
Yeah, when you feel rushed, when you feel like you have to get everything done this instant, that is a great time to to hit pause.
1:25:43
And and lastly sometimes when we're in the blades shop and you think you Just when you think you've seen it all and done it all and and suffered every single setback that you there ever could be in the blades shop, sometimes we we become uh Kikara Ochitaru, which is a different version of your Saru demo Kikara Ochiru, meaning that anybody can fall.
1:26:08
Kikara Ochitaru is is uh is when you become kind of bereft by some kind of unexpected setback, you know, such as being run off on you by your wife or something like that.
1:26:20
So, when when when something in shop goes awry in such a way as no one ever saw it coming, we can be the key kind of which does that. I love it.
1:26:35
Well, I I I know that uh we are coming up on time shortly, so I'm not going to ask too many more questions, but we we get to talk for days and days and days, I am sure.
1:26:46
So, maybe we'll do a a round two at some point, but Maybe we'll actually get to talking about bladesmithing in that.
1:26:57
Well, yeah, I think that I think that the people who are with us at this point in this conversation are already converted and fascinated.
1:27:05
They are interested more interested in knives now than they were when they turned this on.
1:27:08
So, I I think we've we've Yeah, we could we could talk for for days about many different aspects of knife making and the the shared DNA that we have through Japan, but let me ask just a just a handful more and and I'll be I'm already happy with the conversation.
1:27:25
I'll So, I'll I'll use this to round it out.
1:27:29
What books have you gifted the most to other people or reread the most yourself?
1:27:35
You know, as a child, I was fascinated with the book Ivanhoe.
1:27:38
And I love this the the story of of knights and and kind of heroism and altruism and fighting for a great cause.
1:27:52
So, I kind of have a romantic notion of right and wrong and good and evil.
1:27:57
But, in terms of the book I've given away the most, of course, that would be Bladesmithing with Murray Carter, of course, the book that I first authored.
1:28:04
It was the first of three books that I've authored.
1:28:05
And it's it's a great instructional book on bladesmithing techniques in general, but more specifically the application of traditional Japanese blade smithing techniques.
1:28:17
Besides your own books, which I also recommend people check out for sure, uh any others that you've gifted to people that come to mind?
1:28:25
I would say I'm probably delinquent in the fact I've not given many books as presents in my lifetime.
1:28:29
I should Thank you for the for the idea.
1:28:32
Now I now have next year's Christmas presents figured out.
1:28:38
What All right, well, what Let's Let's look at it differently.
1:28:40
When you gift uh are there any items that you routinely gift to people?
1:28:44
And if the answer is knives, what is your go-to gift knife? What type of knife? What characterizes it?
1:28:55
I have uh probably most noteworthy is the fact that I wear a knife daily, usually in the form of a neck knife.
1:29:02
It's a kind of knife that we hang around hang from our neck inverted upside down very securely in a thermoplastic sheath called Kydex, and it's a really handy blade to have.
1:29:15
It's It's the alternative to a folding knife in in the pocket, and there's no mechanism to break, and it's easy to sharpen, easy to maintain, and very strong for its size, and a excellent cutting potential.
1:29:27
So, I've been carrying neck knives uh for my whole career as a bladesmith, and I typically will meet some person who inspires me in some way.
1:29:37
They might be a young child, might be the son of a good friend, you know, might be a housewife who I think would could could could use some protection while walking in the park, but I have given more knives off of my own neck that I've used for several weeks or months or years that I know are really good, high-performing uh and great cutting knives.
1:30:01
I've gifted a lot of those away. That's a great answer.
1:30:05
I love I Yeah, neck knives.
1:30:07
This is this is also something that uh I've been somewhat obsessed with in the last few weeks.
1:30:12
And so that's that's a a to be continued.
1:30:16
So when are you going to come and and take a class? Uh you know what?
1:30:18
When we when we hit stop on this recording, I want to talk to you about that because it's something I would like do ASAP, ideally before the time that this episode comes out.
1:30:30
Or at least get a reservation in.
1:30:33
And uh so two last two questions.
1:30:33
This one is if if you had a gigantic billboard and this is more of a metaphorical question, but you could put a short message on that billboard to get it out to millions of people that is not non-commercial.
1:30:50
What would that or what might that message be?
1:30:53
Well, I mean I could put something cliche on there like don't give up. Mhm.
1:30:57
I could put stick to the plan.
1:30:57
I had written on my walls over in my my Japanese shop, stick to the plan.
1:31:02
And the other one under that was concentrate on the task at hand.
1:31:06
You know, so easy to get distracted uh you know, from new stimuli that focusing and concentrating on the task at hand uh is often in even though it's a simple concept, it's difficult to to execute.
1:31:22
So those are some those are some kind of like truisms or sayings that I live by.
1:31:27
What does stick to the plan mean to you most often?
1:31:31
Why why is that one of the two that you chose?
1:31:35
Well, in quiet moments, we always sit down either alone or with loved ones or people we trust and we we we we say we we plan. Humans plan.
1:31:42
They say first maybe we of these three things will probably need to happen.
1:31:47
We should do this first and then this second and then lastly we'll achieve this.
1:31:52
And as is so common in life, people sabotage their own plans.
1:31:56
You know, they get to a certain part of the the and it becomes monotonous or tedious or difficult or challenging and and and all of a sudden instead of sticking with the plan and seeing it through to completion, they think, "Oh, what I need is a new plan." Right.
1:32:12
And so, you have people who who who who who habitually, chronically in the process of making new plans and never actually execute a single one of their existing plans.
1:32:24
Is that something that you've struggled with or is that It sounds like you have that pretty well handled.
1:32:30
So, I'm wondering is it is it more of a reminder for your employees or what is How how have you used that reminder in your life or for other people? Uh You're right.
1:32:42
I am I've been lucky to have stuck to most of my plans and achieved the goals I've set out for myself because I've constantly reminded myself to stick to the plan. Good answer. Yeah. Very good answer. All right.
1:32:55
Uh Do you have any parting and I'm going to also ask you before I wrap up, of course, where people can find out more about you and so on and I'll put those links in the show notes for everyone, but any parting comments or requests, thoughts for the people who are listening to this?
1:33:13
Uh well, I'd like to thank everybody for for for listening and uh of course, they can find out more about our knives at cartercutlery. com.
1:33:22
c a r t e r c u t l e r y. com.
1:33:28
And uh you know, we we do strive to make the finest knives in the world, high-performance blades that are also very easy to maintain.
1:33:36
And uh we've encouraged we've successfully encouraged uh and mentored tens of thousands of people to uh to learn the uh the very easily attainable skill of sharpening knives and we're we've kind of revitalized that uh essential skill and uh given great people uh given a lot of people the great feeling of of mastery and satisfaction uh over their cutlery and and being able to maintain it and sharpen it and uh and use it to their heart's content.
1:34:10
Could you give, just with that teaser, could you could could you name one thing you wish more people did related to knife sharpening or one thing you wish people would stop doing?
1:34:24
Well, I I'll I'll give a little freebie out there for everybody, and that is that when they get a new piece of cutlery, especially one for the kitchen, if they will just uh keep that cutting edge from touching anything other than food, uh meaning don't drop it in your
1:34:38
kitchen sink, don't let it touch other plates and and pans, don't let it touch the other silverware in the drawer, uh and that will preserve the cutting edge, the primary edge of that knife, far longer than they ever thought possible. It's the clanging around of the knives,
1:34:51
It's the clanging around of the knives, the the the the the misplacement of the knives in the kitchen that really dulls them.
1:34:58
So, that's a little freebie for everybody.
1:35:01
So, they shouldn't use their kitchen knives for opening boxes from Amazon, in other words.
1:35:06
They can They can do that after they master sharpening, and then not worry what they use their knife for, cuz they know it's only a couple of minutes until they can refresh both the primary and secondary edges of their knives. All right.
1:35:18
Well, Murray That's freedom. That's the real freedom. That is the freedom.
1:35:21
When when you can when you can maintain and master your own tools, and everybody listening you can also find Carter Cutlery on Facebook, facebook.
1:35:30
com/cartercutlery, Instagram, fantastic Instagram, Instagram uh also Carter Cutlery, and I will put all links to everything we've discussed in the show notes, as usual, so everybody listening can find all of that, as well as more resources, and so on, at tim.
1:35:47
blog/podcast for this episode and every other episode.
1:35:52
And Carter uh Carter, I always want to call you Carter.
1:35:54
I have a good friend named Carter.
1:35:56
Murray thank you so much for taking the time.
1:36:00
There's an expression in Japanese which I'm sure you've heard before, which is saisho de saigo.
1:36:04
So, when you do something you never want to do it again, that's saisho de saigo.
1:36:07
I have the exact opposite feeling with this conversation.
1:36:10
I hope we have many many more.
1:36:12
So, thank you for taking the time. Hajimatta bakari. Exactly. Hajimatta bakari nan da.
1:36:18
So And and as my some of my Japanese friends said to me with this bewildered face uh in high school they would say oi o mai nihonjin da yo So, I have that feeling with you, which is that you are secretly part Japanese. Mhm.
1:36:36
Uh which I mean is the highest compliment. So, to be continued.
1:36:39
And uh thank you again and to everybody listening as always thank you and continue the experiments. Be nice and be safe.
1:36:54
Hey guys, this is Tim again just a few more things before you take off.
1:36:56
Number one, this is five bullet Friday.
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