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Just into welcome back to Giant Ideas. Thank you.
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>> Last week you told us about your approach to empathetic leadership, how to stay calm in a crisis.
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So you shared your giant ideas.
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This week we're going to ask about the person behind the ideas.
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And we ask all our guests, if you could choose three photographs that defined your life and what you've learned in your life, what would those three photographs be? Oof.
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I spent like, you know, like 140,000 words trying to answer this [laughter] question in a book.
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Do you know, I think the first would be from my childhood.
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Um you know, in the frame, my um my parents, my sister.
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And probably in the really early years, I grew up I have in two places.
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Most of my time has been in a really um wonderful small town called Morrinsville.
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But a few years in an even smaller town called Murupara.
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And you know, you can never quite pinpoint if you're a political person or you know, someone who uh you know, wants to commit their lives to lofty ambitions like changing the world, where exactly that comes from.
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But in part, you know, those those few years in Murupara, I think uh showed me how strongly I felt about just making sure that you're just doing what you can around inequality, um fairness, and particularly for kids.
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>> [snorts] >> Uh and child poverty has been something I've cared about since as long as I can remember.
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Carried it with me all the way through my time in politics.
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And and I really think that's its origin.
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But at the same time, the reason it would be a photo in Murupara but with my parents is because of values, that idea that you should go and do something uh that is of service to other people.
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That was very much from my parents. Yeah.
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What would be your second photograph?
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Probab- probably one from my time in office because it was, you know, the it the great it will be the greatest privilege of my life.
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Um there are a few photos from March 15th that always stay stay with me.
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You know, I think I asked that question when you finish in a job like that, you know, whether or not you're a different person.
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And I find it quite hard to explain.
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I don't fundamentally think I am, but I do now carry extra things with me.
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And one is just the sadness that I know I'll, you know, I'll never shake from that from that period.
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And so that's what those images represent for me, the deep privilege uh of office, but sometimes the sadness that can come with it. And and your third?
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Third would just be my my husband and my daughter. >> Mhm.
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Um you know, we've got lots of you know, snaps together now of us experiencing the world together and uh they just bring me such joy.
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And one of the great things about the last couple of years while we've been away from our home is that, you know, I've come to realize actually I can be I can be pretty happy anywhere when I'm with my when I'm with my family. That's lovely. Mhm.
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You became the youngest ever female head of government at 37.
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What is it about you that enabled you to see this kind of success so early in your life? Oh, I didn't.
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>> [laughter] >> Nope, could not visualize it for a moment.
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You know, and it And And I think it's one of the things I struggle with a little bit is that I want so much, you know, those who might have a little bit of a confidence gap to put themselves into the position where they, you know, they are putting themselves forward for leadership. >> Mhm. But I I didn't.
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Uh and so I'm also almost >> You're a a reluctant leader. >> I was.
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And it was a really bizarre set of circumstances.
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I mean, 7 weeks out for an election, we're in the early 20s percentage-wise, which was not enough to win.
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Um my boss, you know, realizes that maybe he might not be able to pull it off and and suggests I take over and I tell him absolutely not.
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You know, you've got to stick with it.
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I mean, what a terrifying prospect.
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Who takes over the leadership 7 weeks out from an election?
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Um but then a week later, there was no choice.
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He came to work and he quit.
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Uh and so >> [snorts] >> I think, you know, what in part I feel is now this obligation to say, well, I I may not have chosen it, but I'd like to think I tried to prove something once I was there.
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And so now I want to encourage other people that you don't have to be in those very particular circumstances.
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Instead, um just push through that hesitancy, that reluctance.
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>> Well, there's that truism about the best leaders being those who don't don't seek power.
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And at the moment, we could use a bit more of it, I think. Yeah.
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In your resignation remarks, you you said that I know what this job takes. Mhm.
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And candidly, I I no longer have in the tank what's what's required.
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What was going on for you at that moment in time?
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Yeah, I I really um try and differentiate between the idea of burnout because, you know, burnout in my mind, I kind of think of you're in the fetal position in the corner. And and that wasn't me. I could have kept going.
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>> [gasps] >> Uh I just didn't think I could keep going to the standard that I thought was, you know, that was necessary.
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Uh and I was here to make a long-term decision because it was like a, you know, we were a year out from an election.
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Uh and for that, I needed to commit to another 3 years.
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You know, that's the contract.
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I didn't like the idea of running and then saying, "Well, after a year I'm off."
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That didn't feel right to me.
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So I, you know, a year out I had to make that call.
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And for me it was just as I said, I just thought actually 5 years felt like 10.
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Uh I'd been in politics for 15 altogether.
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Uh it felt like the right thing to do was for someone else to take over.
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For the for the parents amongst our listeners, particularly the moms, you you had a a baby while you were Prime Minister. >> Yeah.
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Reflecting on that now, what what did you learn about yourself?
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What did you learn about what's possible, what's not possible?
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Tell us about a bit about that.
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>> The the great thing is I I didn't know what it was to be a Prime Minister without being pregnant and having a child.
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So when you're, you know, you just, you know, as my husband always used to say, there's only one way to eat an elephant, you know, one one bite at a time.
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And that's literally how it felt.
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You just took every I think you can really easily feel overwhelmed if you think it in the round.
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But actually life was just a set of logistics each day.
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And just breaking it down, taking each day as it come as it came.
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Uh one thing I had to get past was the idea that I could control everything.
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You know, and I think that's, you know, one of an unfortunate one of my toxic traits.
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>> [laughter] >> And when you've got a baby, I mean, they're just not going to run to whatever schedule you have in mind. I had to let go. I had to accept help.
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Uh I had to let a village in.
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Those were all good things uh in the end.
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Uh but what I would say is yes, women and mothers can do it all.
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They just shouldn't do it on their own.
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So that that for me was really important to model.
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I hated the idea of someone thinking, "Well, oof, you know, I'm failing because look at everything she's doing."
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I never did it by myself. Right. Yeah.
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Seen some fantastic clips of you fighting back against some pretty shocking misogyny on local radio stations.
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There was an ex-cricketer on the radio.
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I think I saw one where you were like, "You >> [laughter] >> do not ask questions like that.
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Women should not be forced to talk about whether they're going to have a baby or not when they're taking a job and so on." Yes.
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You face some pretty shocking stuff. Uh tell us about that.
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How did you deal with it?
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Yeah, I mean, I think I I grappled with this because there's always this, you know, I felt at least, I felt like on some occasions where I experienced, you know, a cartoon that would portray me in, you know, like a bikini and a set of stilettos as a tokenistic politician, which is one of the ones that I had.
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And I got asked for comment.
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And I remember thinking, "If I get stuck in, I'm going to be portrayed as humorless."
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So I thought I thought it was often those were all lose-lose situations.
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So often I I would ignore it.
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And to be fair, it was not my overwhelming experience of politics was not fighting every single day sexism. It just wasn't.
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And so I I, you know, in part, sometimes ignoring it felt like the better option.
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But then there were these times where I thought, "But for anyone watching, I think sometimes it is right to push back."
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And and so on that particular example you raised, I didn't mind them asking me because I'd chosen to put those discussions out into the open.
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I'd been asked before and I'd answered the question.
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I did not agree with the idea that every woman should face that because let's be honest, if an employer is asking a prospective employee if they intend to have children, it's not so they can prepare the gift basket.
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And so that I thought was worthy of pushback.
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And it was my first day, my first full day as leader of the Labour Party that happened.
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And I remember my press secretary, he just looked ashen.
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You know, because he he had no idea how it would go, and nor did I. >> Yeah.
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But I thought I've just I've got to I've got to still be true to who I am. >> Yeah. Yeah. Last question for me.
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You had this extraordinary moment where, as you say, 7 weeks out from an election, you're not expecting to be the leader, let alone be the Prime Minister.
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Then Jacinda-mania takes over across the world, you become this global figure, and people are, you know, looking up to you as a role model.
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You've been on this very, very wild ride as a person.
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And you then leave office in your 40s.
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And and in a way, perhaps it's similar to I always would think this with sports stars, where you have this incredible career in your kind of 20s, early 30s, and then you retire from sports and you've got to move on to the next thing and do the rest of your life is in front of you.
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And the challenge of kind of recreating that buzz, cuz it must have been incredibly fun as well as challenging and the bright lights and and all of it.
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How are you thinking about kind of re-energizing for the next chapter?
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What is the next chapter? We'd love to hear that. Sure.
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Um I feel like I'm in the next chapter.
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Yeah, so uh I I spent some quite a bit of time learning how to write in order to write a write a book.
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That was an exciting challenge.
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I'm still the patron for the Christchurch Call to Action, which is a piece of work around violent extremism and terrorism online.
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So we work on issues like radicalization and and how to uh how we address those issues, working alongside civil society and technology companies.
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Um I'm the uh as special envoy for Oceania for COP, so we work on climate issues and I'm on the board of the Earthshot Prize.
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Um and I'm doing a piece of work with Oxford through the World Leaders Summit on empathetic leadership.
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So I still finding, you know, if there's an existential crisis somewhere, you'll find me there.
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Do you miss the buzz of of being Prime Minister?
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Um I miss I miss the people I worked with.
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And I miss the fact that you can see a problem and then you've got the ability to fix it.
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It is such a I mean, how many jobs can do that?
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But I do not regret the decision.
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So I think those two two things can be true. No regrets.
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But the one thing I will say is that it doesn't the step change for me.
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Yes, the stress is far different.
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The pace of life is far different.
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But I never felt the mania that you describe.
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Um New Zealand is a a place that values humility, expects humility, is very egalitarian, does not expect anyone to you know, lose sight of who they are and why they are there.
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Uh you know, um so I love that about my home.
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And it has meant that the journey from Prime Minister back into civilian life was a very easy one for me because I I'd like to think I never forgot who I was while I was there.
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Well, I think that's an incredible note to end on.
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So Jacinda, thank you so much for joining us on Giant Ideas. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much.