0:02
[Music] [Music] Team Deathmatch.
Search this video
0:20
[Music] Delta team, you are clear to engage. [Music] Triple glaze. [Music] Heat. Heat. N.
0:55
[Music] [Applause] [Music] Large journalistic force headed toward you. Stand by. [Music] [Music] founder. No. [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat. [Music] Heat. [Music] Heat. Heat. N.
2:55
[Music] [Applause] [Music] You came to this world [Music] to reach the stars. We came to this world.
3:27
[Music] We came to this world to reach the stars to shape our future.
3:51
We came to feel the new Heat. Heat. N.
3:59
[Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] You let me [Music] Team Deathmatch.
4:47
Tell the team you are clear to engage.
4:52
[Music] >> You're watching TVPN.
5:01
>> Today is Monday, August 25th, 2025.
5:01
We are live from the TVP Ultra Dome.
5:03
The temple of technology, the fortress of finance, and the newly hotly contested capital of capital. Did you hear this? No. >> It's in the stack.
5:12
Abu Dhabi is claiming that they are the capital of capital.
5:14
We have to go capital for capital with them.
5:19
>> We will figure it out.
5:19
We will be running through that. It's in the W.
5:22
That one's in the Financial Times.
5:22
But we are kicking it off with a Wall Street Journal article and a couple posts.
5:28
We're also going to tell you about ramp. com. Time is money. Save both.
5:29
Easy use corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place.
5:34
So, Poly Market also a sponsor breaking the US government now officially owns a 10% stake in Intel.
5:42
The the Poly Market jumped to a 99% chance.
5:45
Uh this this broke over the weekend in the >> They didn't think Uncle Sam could get an allocation. >> They didn't.
5:50
You know, this is technically Intel Series A.
5:52
They did a seed round of 2.
5:55
5 million on convertible debt in 1967. Convertible debt. >> Convertible debt. Vintage. Arthur Rock.
6:03
Not the anonymous poster, not Rur Rock, but Arthur Rock, >> the OG. >> The OG.
6:07
Uh, and uh, and then they raised 6.
6:11
8 million in 1970 and that was their IPO.
6:16
So, this is their series A in my opinion.
6:18
Anyway, >> back then, back then, even if you would, you would round down, right?
6:21
like if it was going to be 6.
6:23
was going to be 6.9 million e the very Elon cod to go with that number were close and decided hey let's round down we don't need to let's keep it classy >> um yeah so uh over the weekend uh the Wall Street Journal reported president says US will take big stake in Intel President Trump said uh the government is taking nearly 10% stake in Intel
6:42
capping a two-eek frenzy in Washington over the future of the company and fueling speculation about what else might be done to help the troubled chipmaker uh Trump said in the Oval Office Friday that the company has agreed to give the government the stake as part of discussions about the company's future and billions of dollars in grants it has received from the 2022 chips act. >> To be clear, I don't think they've
7:05
>> To be clear, I don't think they've actually received it yet.
7:08
>> They've received two billion already, but there was uh something like something like roughly 10 billion, maybe 11 billion in in grants and then another equal amount in loans for an Ohio facility.
7:20
And those are are going to be rolling out and they should draw and Intel should be able to draw down on them, but uh they could always be rolled back if something changes and the chips act kind of goes away.
7:30
And so um this is all the art of the deal. This is the pressure.
7:34
Um and so uh it's very funny the way Trump phrased it.
7:37
He says, "I said I think you should pay us 10% of the company and they said yes."
7:41
Which is not typically how people discuss equity investments.
7:48
>> Government grants too. Yeah. Yeah.
7:48
Well, people just don't people don't say, "Pay us 10% of the company."
7:52
Like a VC will come to you and say, "Hey, I want to invest uh, you know, $20 million and I want a 15% stake in your company >> in exchange >> in exchange."
8:02
And and if anything, I you know, I would ask for that stake or I'm trying to build towards that stake.
8:06
I want to build a position in your company, not I want you to pay me, but uh that's the nature of this thing.
8:12
Uh, so there's I mean, we've all been tracking this.
8:15
There's been a little bit of back and forth between Lip Bhutan and Donald Trump.
8:19
He originally called for the uh for the resignation.
8:21
We can take you through the timeline.
8:23
The Wall Street Journal laid it out really well in an article deep dive that we'll go through.
8:27
But let's kick it off with this Howard Lutnik video. Let's play it.
8:29
The art of the deal colon intel.
8:31
And this is from Howard Lutnik sitting next to Lip Bhutan in a beautifully appointed room.
8:38
If we can go full screen here, that'd be great.
8:39
I'm sitting with Lipu in my office and at 3:00 we're going to sign a document together in the Oval Office where the United States of America uh will own 9.
8:50
9% of the great American technology company Intel.
8:54
I I can't be more excited for America and for Intel that we get to work together.
9:00
that we get to work together. Uh first of all thank you so much secretary and uh this is big important historical uh agreement that we can work together and then more important I don't need the grant but I really look forward to have
9:15
the US government be my shareholder and we can work together make Intel have you heard >> so what happened is uh Lipu became the CEO of Intel >> and he came to see me and he said you know the Biden administration gave this company a grant of $10 billion and we don't need a grant. We're a great We're a great company.
9:36
Maybe not with the best leadership, but now leadership.
9:40
>> This video is absolutely insane.
9:42
>> He said, you know, and and that was the conversation.
9:45
And then when we had the conversation with the president, >> he said, "Look, we don't want to take your money away from you, but shouldn't it be fair?"
9:55
>> And we agreed >> that it would be fair that the same money they're logging deals from should have shares for it cuz it's just bad.
10:04
>> And we agreed together >> and and then you went to your board of directors. >> Yes. >> And they agreed. >> Yes.
10:10
>> And it's a giant public company. So it had to be fair. >> Yes. >> Had to be fair. >> Had to be fair. >> There's no other way.
10:15
>> And so we did it fair >> for Intel and for the American people.
10:19
And I think this is this is exactly what Donald Trump is all about.
10:22
I'm really excited that today we get to do the deal. >> That's right.
10:26
Thank you so much for your support. What's that? >> Botched handshake. What happened there? >> Whoa. >> Wow.
10:32
>> I uh >> Liu went for the dap up >> and Lnick hit him with the power the power grab the power shake and it just was botched. Interesting. >> Interesting.
10:40
We should Ben, can we can we put that in slow motion and play that back?
10:45
Well, the Journal has a timeline here.
10:47
Bhutan was anxiously preparing for the biggest meeting of his life.
10:49
Just five months into his tenure as chief executive of Intel, Tan was already fighting for his job.
10:54
A few days earlier, Donald Trump had demanded he step down over his past ties to the Chinese military.
11:00
The demand sent to Intel's leaders The demand sent Intel's leadership into a panic.
11:04
They immediately contacted the White House for a meeting and Tan flew to Washington huddling with advisers for hours on Sunday, August 10th.
11:11
His team reassured him that the president would hear him out because, quote, "Trump loves meeting with CEOs. Who doesn't?"
11:17
Um even those whom he has attacked publicly according to people with knowledge of the conversations. >> Yeah. Yeah.
11:26
He he's he's been fought in WWE. He understands.
11:29
You call out your opponent, you hash it out, you leave it on the field. Yeah. It's good.
11:36
>> The next day, Tan met with Trump, Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnik, and Treasury SEC Secretary Scott Bessant in the Oval Office.
11:41
He sought to convince the president that he wasn't a Chinese spy, and that the US government has a long-term interest in bolstering Intel, one of the only homegrown manufacturers of the computer chips that power the modern economy.
11:52
The CEO's argument proved persuasive.
11:54
The president also took a liking to Tan, a Malaysia born Singapore-raised US citizen who once considered a career as a professional basketball player and backed off his demand for the CEO's >> Lip Boo.
12:07
>> Uh, can we get a Tyler?
12:07
Can you actually try to find a highlight reel of Liu?
12:12
image of Li Bhutan dunking on LeBron James.
12:16
>> But the truth came with a cost.
12:16
In return for Trump support, the administration proposed taking an equity stake in the company.
12:20
It's interesting in that video they framed it as Lit Bhutan was like, you know what, we don't need the money.
12:25
Why don't you take a stake?
12:27
But maybe maybe you know it's kind of unclear uh who made the initial move. >> Both ways.
12:33
So uh just for context, last year uh Intel brought in $50 billion in revenue, but they lost 18. 8 billion.
12:38
So they did not do well on earning.
12:42
They missed on bottom line essentially >> just a little bit. >> Just a little bit.
12:47
Uh and they switched CEOs obviously they've struggled on the founding side the foundry side.
12:52
They're not making chips for they can't find customers for their foundry stuff.
12:55
Um so you know if that continued for a really long time yeah they they would need the money but they technically don't.
13:02
And you can just look at the you can just look at the stock price like before any of this like it's not like Intel was trading as a penny stock.
13:10
Like it was still it was too rich for Elon to buy with the what was it 40 billion that went into Twitter or something like that.
13:18
Like I I remember thinking like oh I would prefer if he bought Intel potentially because that one seems important.
13:25
Um but uh but it's always been around $80 billion company and so uh like if if it was truly on the brink of bankruptcy the the shares would be falling even more in my opinion.
13:34
So I I I think Libu is not being disingenuous there.
13:39
They actually could get by without the money.
13:40
Um but they would they need to restructure like very seriously and Liputan's like doing that. Like he's cutting a ton. He's going to cut more.
13:47
And if you cut everything that's not additive to that 50 billion and you just try and hold on to as much of that 50 billion in revenue as possible and you cut everything that's losing money, um yeah, you should wind up with something that actually generates, I don't know, maybe $10 billion of free cash flow.
14:01
>> Not a bad little business.
14:01
Intel decided to convert nearly 9 billion in grants promised to Intel as part of the 2022 chipsack into a 10% equity stake in the company.
14:09
An unusual arrangement that makes the government Intel's biggest shareholder.
14:12
Meeting was a pivot point in a frenzy period for Intel.
14:14
Once one of America's most venerated technology companies, now stuck in a years'sl long downward spiral.
14:21
The company's scramble to control the fallout from the president's demand that Tan step down.
14:26
Ton uh triggered by a Fox Business Network segment underscores the unpredictable environment major corporations face under Trump.
14:32
By the end of the twoe roller coaster ride, uh Ton's job appeared to be secure and the company's situation more stable.
14:39
Japan Soft Bank Group agreed to invest two billion seeking to curry favor with Trump.
14:46
On Friday, Intel in the White House uh unofficially officially revealed the terms of the deals.
14:50
He came in, he saw me, we talked for a while. I liked him a lot.
14:53
I thought he was very good.
14:55
Trump said of Tan from the Oval Office. I said, "You know what?
14:57
I think the United States should be given 10% of intel."
15:00
And he said, "I would consider that."
15:02
Uh yet a host of questions remain.
15:05
>> I think this might be the gong of the day.
15:07
This might be a true size gong moment.
15:09
This is the biggest fundraising. >> Hit that gong. >> Congratulations.
15:16
>> Clean first hit of the week. It is good to be back.
15:20
>> We're calling it uh 1600 Pennsylvania Ventures. >> Yep.
15:24
>> White House Capital Group.
15:25
>> White House Capital Group. >> Trump.
15:30
>> Uh Tan must resolve core business challenges to get his company on track.
15:33
Some analysts say Intel isn't in a much better position without new commitments from customers.
15:37
Converting government grants to stock will only leave the company in a worse financial shape by diluting shareholders.
15:42
Trump will likely need to find more ways to support Intel, not wanting it to fail on his watch.
15:49
>> And that's why Liutan's like genuinely excited. >> Yeah. >> Now you're in.
15:53
>> Trump is effectively the spa sponsor of Intel now.
15:56
It's a new It's a new era. >> Yeah.
15:58
He has bags and so he's aligned.
16:00
And so if L Bhutan needs to come to him and say, "Hey, you know, we're trying to make this a facility in Ohio. It's not going well.
16:06
We need you to put some pressure on customers.
16:09
>> We need to line up some customers."
16:09
All sorts of things like in terms he's value ad.
16:14
>> He Trump is value is a value added investor. >> He's got audience. He's got business.
16:19
>> He's got he's he's got I mean he's got his own social media tech giant. >> True. True.
16:25
Could be a potential buyer, you know.
16:27
Maybe maybe Truth Social becomes a hyperscaler. >> Yeah.
16:29
You know, it's happened before. >> Troop Truth Cloud. >> Truth Cloud.
16:35
>> Uh, Intel needs a lot of help and the US needs Intel, said Jimmy Goodrich, a senior adviser to the think tank.
16:39
Rand, who focuses on tech issues.
16:41
Hopefully, something good is going to come out of this.
16:44
>> We had we had Jimmy on the show like two days ago.
16:47
>> Jimmy, good work, Jimmy.
16:47
Uh, Intel was founded in 1968 by semiconductor pioneers Robert Noise, who co-created the modern computer chip, and Gordon Moore, originator of Moore's law, the idea that computing power and chip efficiency would likely double every year or two, a guiding principle in the tech revolution.
17:03
By the '90s, Intel dominated the market for processors used in personal computers.
17:06
Its Pentium line and Intel inside marketing campaign with dancers and multicolored clean room suits made the company a household name.
17:15
Then came a series of tragic missteps.
17:17
The company largely missed out on the mobile phone and artificial intelligence booms by overemphasizing short-term financial targets.
17:25
Analysts say rivals in chip design like Nvidia and manufacturers such as Taiwan semiconductor surged ahead.
17:30
It's interesting how you if you're a huge uh tech company, you can miss maybe one platform shift and do fine, but you miss two, you're going to be rough.
17:39
Even >> even Microsoft said, you know, we miss mobile.
17:44
Yeah, get into social media and LinkedIn.
17:47
>> Yeah, you could you I it's a really really stretched metaphor, but you could say that like Nvidia missed mobile more or less like the like they weren't really switching into okay, let's be the design arm of because the the >> you were buying enough chips for your gaming. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
18:03
No, it was just a gaming company at that time mostly in scientific computing a little bit, but um there is a graphics processing unit on mobile phones.
18:10
uh it's just part of the system on a chip that goes into the phone and it was never Nvidia never really like figured out a way to get a piece of mobile uh and and there's a world where like the cloud rendering stuff happens but uh Nvidia kind of sat that out but it didn't matter because they they they crushed AI.
18:30
>> So company is still as keen to reviving US manufacturing. Look at Nvidia's sales.
18:35
This is sales by quarter and it's just like and this is what a 30-year-old company is just completely >> completely off to the right.
18:43
Looks like a YC demo day. >> Looks like a ramp. >> It's crazy.
18:48
>> Um the company is still seen as key to reviving US manufacturing.
18:50
In his first term, Trump touted Intel's plans for 7 billion manufacturing plant in Arizona.
18:56
Trump advisers began discussing what became the Chips Act, wanting to attract companies such as TSMC to the US.
19:01
>> Has Arizona tried to brand like what they're doing?
19:03
They they have so many different uh chip manufacturers coming into Arizona.
19:07
They need like Silicon Desert or something that like Chip City. >> Chip City.
19:11
It really feels like like there there is a significant move that Yeah.
19:16
that that will ultimately become like a company town type vibe. >> Chip City.
19:20
As discussion on the chips uh crescendoed during the Biden administration, Intel Pat Intel CEO Pat Gellzinger lobbied aggressively hoping for some of the laws tens of billions of dollars in subsidies.
19:31
In 2022, he sat in the first lady's box for the State of the Union speech during which President Biden touted Intel's investment plans.
19:40
While the bill was being negotiated, senators including Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren pushed unsuccessfully for a version that would see the government receiving equity in companies it backed. Uh, very interesting.
19:52
This is what Mark Cuban was saying last week.
19:54
He was saying this is Sanders and and Warren's dream.
19:56
um he said it in a little bit um less uh PG language if I remember correctly, but Intel became the law's biggest beneficiary, qualifying for roughly 11 billion in grants and and about 11 billion in loans for a plant in Ohio, an expansion in Arizona and other projects.
20:16
It seemed like a boon at the time, but the law law's slow roll out in Intel's core business challenges led to repeated delays. >> Talk about ROI there.
20:22
>> Talk about ROI there. like the like Li Bhutan saying like you know we don't need these grants and I think he's like technically correct but it's an incredible nice to have and the ROI on your CEO going to the state of a union and just sitting in a box and like taking some meetings and you know I
20:39
don't know what Intel's lobbying budget was but it probably was less than 10 billion right it was probably less than 10 million it probably wasn't very much at all and uh and and you get a huge >> uh friend of the show Andrew Ross Sorcin said yesterday Should the government start taking equity in every startup for the federal tax incentives we offer? Or Or Tesla? How about the banks?
20:57
How about when a state government offers a tax incentive?
21:00
Should they get an equity stake in exchange board representation?
21:05
This is a super slippery slope.
21:05
And uh Bill Gurley said, "Here's my take.
21:09
If the government is a quote unquote lender of last resort, they should take a 100% take equity and arguably 100% of the equity.
21:16
Failed to do this with GM, Goldman Sachs, United, and other airlines.
21:20
How do you know if they're the lender of last resort >> resort?
21:24
The company takes the deal. >> Takes the deal.
21:26
>> Um, which uh tracks >> because otherwise the the the company would go with a financial investor who says I only want 50% for the same price or whatever.
21:36
Uh, and so um I it is a it is a good uh it's it's a good point.
21:43
It's a good point by Bill.
21:43
So, uh, in reference to the original Chips Act grants, uh, the Journal says it seemed like a boon at the time, but the law's slow roll out in Intel's core business challenges led to repeated delays.
21:52
Late last year, Tan, who had been an Intel director since 2022, left the board in protest of Galsinger strategy.
21:58
The board also soued on Gellzinger and pushed him out.
22:02
Trump's victory presented another curveball. He had bashed Biden.
22:06
>> Quitting in protest, deeply underrated.
22:08
Deeply underrated strategy just in life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
22:11
I I I respect Tan for for quitting in protest and then ultimately getting >> coming back for the top spot.
22:18
>> It's It's pretty It's pretty sick. >> Pretty sick.
22:20
Under underutilized strategy. >> Yeah. >> Just I'm out.
22:25
>> He decided basically in the trough of disillusionment.
22:28
He quit in protest and then he said, "Yep, I'll pop back on the the roller coaster for the slope >> slope of enlightenment."
22:34
That that's where Intel is.
22:36
We're really Yeah, I think we're I think I think we were >> Who's who's on the slope of enlightenment?
22:41
I thought we were doing three colors. Me, you, Tyler.
22:45
>> I didn't get Tyler on there yet, but you're on You're You're just innovation.
22:51
You're just coming up to the peak.
22:52
>> I just went to San Francisco.
22:52
I was talking to AI researchers.
22:53
They told me deep learning is undefeated.
22:56
They told me that pre-training scaling will continue.
23:00
And so I'm I'm I have yet to in I my infl My expectations can continue to be inflated.
23:07
>> I am looking at the trough.
23:08
>> You're looking at the trough.
23:09
>> I'm looking at the trough.
23:10
>> You're going straight.
23:12
>> Wait, Tyler, where are you?
23:13
>> I think I'm where Jordy is, too.
23:13
It's the red one other side of the of the >> down. Wow.
23:18
I thought you were so AGI pilled, bro.
23:20
I thought you were so AGI pilled.
23:22
>> But I I mean like Okay, even Daresh Daresh is extending his timelines.
23:24
Like how can you I mean it's hard to still be >> extending the timeline just means that the the the initial innovation trigger slope is just going like this but he's still he's still going up.
23:34
He's still going up and to the right. He's happy worse. Yx's expectations. >> I don't know. I don't know.
23:43
Let's just uh sprint to the plat plateau of productivity.
23:48
The real move is that I I don't think we're in the trough of disillusionment yet.
23:52
How about How about I think we need to make the TVPN version of this for the AI hype cycle and the slope of enlightenment.
23:59
We need to just like >> another another vertical line.
24:01
Another vertical line >> for the fast takeoff scenario. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
24:07
It's like we get a bubble, we get a crash, and then we get a fast takeoff.
24:11
That's the most likely for sure.
24:13
No, our job is is to recognize and diagnose when we are in the trough of disillusionment and reillusionize people such that we can get to the slope of life.
24:23
>> I've never been in a trough of disillusionment that didn't one day get to the >> slope of enlight.
24:29
>> So there's always hope. There's always hope. >> Yes.
24:32
>> Uh but uh anyways, >> you know what could have made that video better?
24:36
>> If it was streamed on reream. >> That's right.
24:37
Live >> one live stream, 30 plus destinations.
24:40
Multiream and reach your audience wherever they are. Lip Bhutan.
24:41
Uh Howard Lutnick, if you're listening, get on reream. Anyway, continue. Jordy, >> of course.
24:47
Uh so Trump's 2024 victory presented another curveball.
24:52
He had bashed Biden's implementation of the chips act, fueling worries that could he could try to change deals or cancel them altogether.
24:58
Intel's financial condition worsened in the incoming administration worried the company might fail.
25:02
Even with the recent share price rebound in August, followed by reports of the deal with Trump, the company is now valued at 110 billion, a fraction of its com bubble peak, the stock is down roughly 50% since the start of last year. Wow.
25:17
>> Intel has has been left behind, Trump said last uh Friday.
25:21
>> So around Trump's uh inauguration in January, Lutnik and administration officials began evaluating chips act recipients and which tech companies generally could increase their US investments in line with the president's goals.
25:32
They asked semiconductor companies receiving chips act awards to increase their total US investment, but they knew they might need to revamp Intel's deal or help the companies in other ways.
25:42
What's interesting there is that um when we talked to like all of this is like like everyone's doing art of the deal on each other and meanwhile like when we talked to Doug Olaflin at semi analysis he's like realistically like all this trailing edge capacity is going to be done in like South America like it doesn't make sense to do it in America.
26:00
like a lot of this stuff is just going to wind up getting offshored because it's easier to build some facility that's just copy pasted down there.
26:06
And so, uh, it it it's very unclear like how like how it can actually work in the long term.
26:12
And then and then on the leading edge, like it seems like it's TSMC and Samsung, like Tesla's going with Samsung.
26:18
And those will be in the United States.
26:20
And those will be like cutting edge like PhD level jobs, amazing researchers, like really really great like American innovation.
26:28
But like we're kind of already on that path.
26:29
And Intel's not really the party that you need to be twisting the arm of.
26:34
It feels like if you want America to be like the leading semiconductor c country, you just need to make sure that you have leverage over TSMC and Samsung. Not so.
26:43
And maybe AMD, Global Foundaries a little bit.
26:45
I mean, Global Foundaries is part of Intel now, but um but a lot of the uh a lot of the trailing edge like it seems like it might not be a long-term thing that America's ever good at again because it's like it's commoditizing so rapidly. I don't know.
26:59
Anyway, uh clearly Trump cares about it and wants to keep it here, so that's what he's pushing for.
27:03
Um the administration began early conversations with Intel's board about taking an equity stake.
27:08
The talks didn't move forward in part because the board, which has often been mired in disagreement, wanted more than the administration was willing to give.
27:17
>> Did they want to take take a bigger position?
27:20
>> I no, they probably wanted like 40 billion in in grants or something like give us more for that.
27:24
Former banker Letic has had in recent months asked other tech executives what can be done to help Intel.
27:30
Even asking other chip companies like TSMC, AMD and Micron whether they would cont cons consider potential deals.
27:37
>> And this is what um this is what Doug is Doug has just generally wanted people with semiconductor manufacturing experience to be involved with the company.
27:46
>> And so it's very possible.
27:48
>> This seems like a step in the wrong direction according to his heristic because it's like more government people on the board.
27:53
But I mean to be clear the US government is not taking a board seat and not having a controlling stake.
27:57
Uh it's a purely financial stake which we'll get into.
28:00
So uh in March Intel's board named Tan 65 as CEO one of the biggest decisions he faces is whether to keep the company as one of the few chip firms that does both design and manufacturing.
28:10
Some analysts say Intel should consider splitting the business or doing other types of deals to cut cost.
28:16
Tan has so far shied away from spinning off the manufacturing segment which lost 3.
28:20
2 billion in the second quarter.
28:23
He has told Confidence he has inherited a very bad hand.
28:25
In July, Intel said it would lay off 15% of its workers by year end, cancel billions in plant investments, and further delay work on the sprawling Ohio plant.
28:33
Uh, the new rules of the road were no more blank checks, Tan wrote in a memo to employees.
28:40
Uh Tan's early decisions at Intel were aimed at getting the company on more stable ground.
28:44
But the CEO's past work at chip design software company Cadence Design Systems thrust the company into the spotlight.
28:50
In Jul in late July, July, uh Cadence agreed to pay $140 million for violating US export restrictions by selling banned technology to a Chinese national defense university.
29:02
Uh, the sales happened while Tan was CEO.
29:05
So, you know, you like it seems like he probably had to sign off on that in some way.
29:10
Of course, it's like is it a university?
29:11
Is that like I don't know.
29:14
I I don't know how you like steelman this or dig into like you know >> steelman it you're the steel man champion of the world. steel manning.
29:21
champion of the world. steel manning. It would probably be like the the export restrictions are just like super complicated and it's unclear and it's one of those things where it's like there's the spirit of the law and the letter of the law and they made some
29:33
case for um you know in this particular in this particular technology did not fit within the export restrictions because the export restriction might just be like um you know oh chips of a certain size or scale and they had and they had a chip that was like slightly
29:48
under and then they and the government like you know reinterpreted the export restrictions to include that like this stuff happens all the time um because when these when these export restrictions get get um get written it's easy to >> you don't hear much about cadence design systems by the way it's $95 billion
30:07
public company >> yeah and and and that's why people think Lib Bhutan's so equipped to run Intel because he took that company to like a hundred billion market cap basically from I think like five or 10 or something when he be when he when he joined the company. So, he is he's a
30:21
So, he is he's a talented operator.
30:23
Um, so, uh, a week later, Senator Tom Cotton sent a letter to Intel's board raising concerns about Tan's chai ties to China.
30:31
Trump was watching, this is wild, Trump was watching Fox Business Network on August 7th when host Maria Barto Romo highlighted Cotton's criticism at 7:34 a. m. Eastern time.
30:45
Five minutes later, Trump fired off a message on his Truth Social platform.
30:51
>> The CEO of Intel is highly conflicted and must resign immediately. It's crazy.
30:56
He's just watching the news and then posting about it.
30:58
Uh Journal says it was one of the first times in modern history that the president publicly called for the leader of a major company to step down.
31:05
Trump's demand was seen by some on both sides as an opening bid in negotiations with the CEO.
31:09
The president had already grown intrigued by the idea of government stakes in key industrial companies during his May trip to the Middle East.
31:16
A senior White House official said, though the official added that it wasn't what sparked Trump's post, the president wants to see more such deals in the future.
31:25
>> Well, if you're trying to maintain compliance, get on Vant.
31:27
Automate compliance, manage risk, proof trust continuously.
31:30
Vant's trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliance process and replaces it with continuous automation.
31:37
whether you're pursuing your first >> I imagine that will be we know that Trump is not going to be on the board and not going to be sort of directly pulling the strings on the business but I imagine one of the first things he wants lip to do is >> implement yeah for sure uh so Intel
31:51
stock price has been on a tear shout out to Leopold Ashen Brener at situational awareness >> they mocked him they mocked him they said this guy's fund must have already blown up >> yep oh weird non- consensus bet oh well it paid off So, uh, resignation mid August. Uh, then
32:07
Uh, then Trump met TAN Soft Bank invested two billion and the share price rose from under $20 to over $25 a share.
32:16
Uh, and the deal has been announced.
32:20
So, um, anyway, sorry I cut you off. What?
32:22
No, I think I think people were speculating whether Leupold had some inside information or he just viewed intel as a super strategic asset that >> there was some post about this wouldn't possibly let fail.
32:37
>> There was some guy on on X saying like, "Oh, this is like insider trading.
32:41
Everyone is insider trading.
32:41
Even like Warren Buffett made his money on insider trading. Very blackpilled."
32:45
And uh and somebody tweeted just being like, "There's no evidence of any of this happening at all." And and it Yeah.
32:52
Wait, what you got, Tyler?
32:54
>> I think also like this trade like him being long intel >> totally aligns with the thesis of the of of situational awareness.
33:00
Like his whole thing is they're going to >> monitoring the situation.
33:04
They're going to nationalize like AI. >> Oh yeah.
33:08
>> So obviously like >> if the US is going to nationalize like start a lab, start like building comput stuff, they're going to have like they're going to take the existing Y, >> you know, infrastructure. >> Yeah. Yeah.
33:17
I hadn't even thought about it from that perspective.
33:18
I was just thinking about it from from the perspective of like like we we we talked to Ben Thompson about Intel.
33:23
We talked to Doug Olaflin about Intel.
33:24
Like we were kind of like noodling on it back and forth as like commentators and I didn't come away with a super strong like bull or bear case.
33:33
I didn't really look at the stock price or the valuation or the financials, but it didn't seem like crazy to come up with a like a like a an expression of your position in a in financial terms.
33:44
And it's very clear that like Leopold and his team just like looked at Intel more deeply and saw that there was an opportunity there.
33:51
You don't need not every good trade needs to be inside of training people. It's like so ridiculous.
33:58
>> Um >> and uh and yeah, I mean it's the same thing like it's like what what does he know about Nvidia?
34:03
Like is it possible he just he just knows that like every like he's not in Nvidia. What does he know?
34:09
Is he insider trading or is he just like looking at like oh well Nvidia is like the obvious bet so everyone piled into Nvidia.
34:14
It's like the biggest company in the world.
34:16
Like maybe not a lot of juice left there.
34:17
I'm going to go where you >> get 20%.
34:20
>> I'm gonna go and bet on the things that have high upside potential.
34:22
And >> yeah, I don't know.
34:24
Anyway, uh in the Oval Office, Tan told the president his ties to Chinese businesses were years in the past and he was loyal to the United States.
34:32
He presented ideas for turning Intel around and investing more in the United States.
34:35
Lutnik told Tan that he thought it was dangerous to have so much of the global chipm capacity controlled by foreign companies.
34:41
Tan agreed and reiterated that he was dedicated to Trump's America's first manufacturing agenda.
34:47
By the end of the hourlong session, the president was convinced and agreed to lay off the criticism.
34:54
>> I will no longer call for your immediate resignation on my social media app. Mr. Mr. Tan, >> it's great.
35:01
>> Uh Tan and Lutnick then move quickly to hammer out a deal for the government to take a minority stake in Intel.
35:04
It was complicated negotiation because it was unusual to convert government grants that had already been awarded into equity.
35:11
While they were in talks, Soft Bank, led by MASA suddenly agreed to put two billion into the company, part of it campaign to bet on US firms and appeal to Trump.
35:20
>> If they were uh putting together like a pitch deck for SoftBank, I feel like they should have used Figma for that, >> right?
35:26
>> Think bigger, build faster.
35:26
Figma helps design and development teams build great products together.
35:30
>> I would be shocked if SoftBank uses Figma uh for their the design of their decks. Yeah.
35:36
because they seem to be very PowerPoint coded, but they still are powerful.
35:40
Imagine how powerful they could be if they would, you know, simply get on Figma slides. >> Let's see here.
35:47
Um, >> did I tell you that my first internship ever was at a SoftBankbacked company? >> No way. >> Yeah, drdrew. com. So, Dr.
35:58
Drew was a radio host with Adam Corolla on Kiss FM in 2005.
36:07
>> Wait, that's crazy lore.
36:09
>> Yes, this is insane lore. So, um, Dr.
36:12
Drew was a uh like a boardcertified psychologist, psychiatrist, I think.
36:19
>> Wait, we're pulling up this website, by the way. >> And so, Dr.
36:21
Drew during the dotcom boom wanted to start his own like live stream property basically and raised money from SoftBank and built a team of engineers and had had their own data center racking servers and one of my jobs is like go to the >> well I mean this is like what it is now because he has like podcast and stuff and and you don't really need like a necessarily like a ventureback startup to be an influencer. Um but uh uh >> so Dr.
36:54
went to the same high school as me.
36:56
Uh and uh >> every single famous person has gone to John's high school. >> Yeah, it's wild.
37:02
Um but yeah, like but like one of my like you know pop by the summer office was like go in the data center and it was like super cold.
37:10
It was like not like a data center like people think today.
37:13
It was like a room with a couple racks of servers but there was no AWS.
37:17
So if you wanted to set up a website, you had to like rack a server and like put this put the code on the server and then run it.
37:25
>> Just put the servers in the bag, bro. >> Yeah.
37:27
The brand was a little bit different back then.
37:28
Uh the first show that they were going to greenlight was this sort of like it was about a lot of his stuff was like relationship coaching. So love line.
37:36
People would call in about their relationships.
37:38
And so I think I believe they were going to put two people like a like a man and woman who were maybe dating and they were going to go on a road trip and they were going to like live stream it.
37:46
Um, and it was gonna be like some sort of like new new media.
37:51
>> Well, all I can see is I can see why Masa needed needed to be in that needed to be in that website.
37:56
John, >> it is it is incredible lore.
37:57
Uh, >> is that part of how you underwrote the internship, too?
38:01
You're like, look, you know, >> I wasn't really like technically an intern. I I was I was so young.
38:04
I was just like stopping by the office basically.
38:07
But, um, but it it was cool.
38:09
It it was like a true startup environment, like a pool table, like pretty big office, like very much like >> pool table. >> Yeah, pool table.
38:16
It it was very it was very iconic of like >> pool tables in office.
38:21
>> No, now it's like ping pong tables. They've taken over.
38:23
Um >> we should Do you like pool? >> I like pool.
38:27
>> Okay, we should get a pool table back here. >> Billyards. >> Billyards. >> Yeah.
38:30
>> Um yeah, it was like the classic like kind of overfunded uh ventureback.
38:33
com uh bubble company where like huge staff for something that like would ultimately be uh >> small media company. >> So yeah. Yeah.
38:43
a media company that should focus on like the media piece and then and then like the YouTube should just be like a platform.
38:48
And so it's like it's like it didn't make sense to be in like the middle.
38:52
You either just wanted to be like the influencer or the uh or the platform.
38:56
Anyway, >> so SoftBank had already pledged to spend at least 100 billion in the US on AI and other tech investments.
39:01
A move announced by Sun at Trump's Mara Lago Club last December.
39:05
Soft Bank had also earlier this year discussed a potential deal to acquire Intel's chip manufacturing business.
39:11
Intel and the US soon agreed the government would use 8.
39:14
9 billion in grants that have been committed but not paid to take a nearly 10% stake at a slight discount.
39:21
>> The US won't have a say in governance. It already gave Intel 2.
39:23
2 billion in chips acts grants.
39:26
That was what we were talking about earlier.
39:28
Some had been given but not all that was promised.
39:32
David Shapiro, a former partner on the Wall Street firm Watchdoll Lipton and Rosen and Catz, drew up the terms, including a provision that the government could acquire another 5% of Intel at a discount if the company sells a majority of its manufacturing business.
39:46
>> An underrated naming scheme.
39:46
I I I really wish startups would do this.
39:48
Like the next like AI startup should just be like, >> "No, this is Hayes and Cosgrove."
39:52
And >> this could be totally a new meta.
39:55
It can only be done once. >> Yes. >> By a great team.
39:59
If we did Kugan, Hayes, Cosgrove, and Coler, it would be amazing.
40:05
>> I mean, at at some point, we should just add the whole team.
40:08
>> The whole team longest.
40:08
We could definitely get the >> last names >> Kugan and Hayes and Cogrove and just >> over and over and over.
40:15
So, the administration insisted on this provision as 5% at a discount >> as a type of poison pill meant to dissuade the company from fully exiting the manufacturing segment.
40:25
Um and this is this is what people are really excited about you know government involvement in the decisions of uh of of of >> highly technical projects >> highly technical complicated businesses right >> government famously good at building things. >> Yes. Yes.
40:40
Um so if Intel were to give the government another 5% obviously dilute shareholders and complicate things.
40:47
So despite the initial optimism many analysts say the agreement will only be a boon for Intel if Trump can also find customers and attract more investment for the company.
40:55
I think he's going to be able to do both to be honest.
40:58
I think he's going to be able to strongly encourage other companies.
41:01
>> He's not going to be like a VC that just like sits back and like reads the investor updates.
41:05
>> There's one thing people can criticize Trump for a lot of things, but he is available the week of August 25th. He's online.
41:12
While many allocators, he's not a Burning Man.
41:15
>> He's not a Burning Man, >> which is crazy. Which is crazy.
41:16
You'd think that he's starting to get into venture that he would naturally he would go to Burning Man, >> set up a an oval office camp at Burning Man, >> but instead of being at Black Rock City, he might be at Black Rock. >> That's right. Doing deals.
41:31
Um, that was uh that was one of our good uh there's an early episode of 2BPN where John and I are riffing out Black Rock City, >> the home of >> the home of Burning Man >> and wondering if there's a connection to almost certainly a connection >> obviously a connection to Black Rockck >> financial institution.
41:53
>> Uh Soft Bank's 2 billion and the 8.
41:53
9 billion in government funding that had already been promised aren't gamechanging for the chip manufacturing business.
41:59
In the grand scheme of thing, it's it's not that much.
42:02
>> So they lost 18 billion last year.
42:02
Like we're not even covering last year's losses, >> but better to have and not need, I suppose. >> Yeah.
42:10
So the agreement is fueling speculation that the president could lean on other tech companies to work with Intel.
42:14
Lean strongly encourage uh demand that they are fired if they are not if they do not.
42:21
>> He's gonna read some posts.
42:21
Tan has met with potential customers, including Apple CEO Tim Cook, trying to win support for Intel's next generation manufacturing process.
42:28
This is not the kind of thing I I I see Tim being super interested in.
42:35
He's like more expensive, less performant.
42:39
>> Apple has spent what, a decade getting off of Intel and Intel Max and going to Apple silicon, which are like so integrated, so perfect for the Apple ecosystem.
42:48
like like now like you can run you can run iOS apps on Mac and vice versa.
42:55
Like it's like there's a ton of there's a ton of uh like they've been spinning up like the the ecosystem on top of Apple silicon for so long like the different graphics engines and getting developers to go deeper into optimizing for Apple silicon just like rug back on. >> Yeah.
43:13
The journal says many executives say they would need big incentives to use Intel for manufacturing given how badly it trails industry leaders like TSMC.
43:20
It is difficult to switch semiconductor manufacturers because the pro processes are specialized and have to be planned out years in advance.
43:26
The government's taken Intel is the latest in a series of extraordinary interventions in the private sector.
43:32
>> I mean, what's the craziest thing that they could do?
43:33
Like Apple GPU for a cluster at Intel or something like kind of fresh start.
43:40
That seems like something way out of their wheelhouse of both companies.
43:45
>> I have no idea how they would do that.
43:46
But I mean, if >> if Amazon can do Tranium and and Google can do TPU at TSMC, like maybe there's a world where that happens. I don't know.
43:57
Anyway, Global Foundry is punching the air right now.
43:59
Um anyway um >> um the administ >> so they highlight a couple of the other deals it's worth covering.
44:04
So the president won a quote unquote golden share of control over Japan's Nippon steel in return for allowing it to take over US steel.
44:12
These golden shares are in reference to what the CCP >> Oh I thought it was in reference to the president's toilet which is gold. >> Yes.
44:21
And many many of the fixtures in his in the Oval Office. >> Yes.
44:25
Um but um and last month Trump struck a deal with Nvidia and AMD for the federal government to take 15% of their chip sales in China in return for allowing the exports.
44:35
>> In early July, the Defense Department took a minority stake in MP Materials, a maker of Rare Earth Magnets.
44:40
Days later, Apple, which the Trump administration had long pressured to expand its US supply chain, announced a $500 million deal to buy MP's products. >> Yeah.
44:51
So that's an example of like Trump like acting as uh you know bisdev basically for the companies he likes.
44:58
>> I mean he's really going to make a lot of VCs look bad that big promises during the deal process when they're trying to win allocation and then kind of >> I'll help you ramp your revenue for sure.
45:07
I know a lot of the top I know a lot of the top guys.
45:10
>> I know a ton of founding engineers.
45:10
I don't have 50 other portfolio companies that also want to hire founding engineers. >> I got you. I got you.
45:16
Um, but the intel stake is among the most notable notable given Trump called for Tanda to resign then quickly brought him to the negotiating table.
45:25
There's this Darth Vader aspect of the whole thing, said Guantanam Makunda, a lecturer at the Yale University School of Management, never heard of it, who studies innovation and leadership, referring to the Star Wars villain who started as good, became evil, then redeemed himself.
45:42
Um anyways uh >> so do >> you want to read through this post from >> the big question is is this socialism >> maga socialism >> is this maga socialism a lot of people have been saying this and and I mean I think like my default take is that uh like I don't know that Intel is so critical that we need necessarily a backs stop.
46:06
I don't necessarily know that uh the government is the right >> trust Doug on this.
46:14
>> Doug really doesn't want Doug from semi analysis really doesn't does not want Intel to fail. >> Yeah. I don't know.
46:20
I I I I'm I'm still like on the fence about it.
46:22
Um but uh so the debate has been raging like is this is this socialism?
46:27
Um and so we're going to the socialists who are self-proclaimed.
46:32
the people's line uh from Carl uh Bher uh and Carl says no, but that hasn't stopped Democrats from complaining about it.
46:42
And this is interesting because um obviously the Trump camp is very pro this deal and they're saying this isn't socialism.
46:50
What are you talking about?
46:50
We're just doing art of the deal.
46:51
We're making good deals and we're uh we're this is an America first agenda project.
46:54
Um the Democrats are saying, "Oh wow, Trump is a hypocrite. This is socialism."
46:59
The socialists are saying this isn't socialism.
47:02
It doesn't go nearly far enough.
47:04
It doesn't count as socialism because it's not a controlling stake.
47:07
So, uh, Carl says former under Obama under secretary of the state Rick Stangle is freaking out right now over the news that the Trump administration has taken a 10% equity stake in chip manufacturer Intel.
47:19
This is a quote from Rick Stangle.
47:21
Uh, Trump Trump's strongarming Intel for government equity is something Mao and Stalin would be proud of.
47:28
Once the GOP believed in lazy fair capitalism and government not interfering in the private sector. Look it up.
47:35
The state owning the means of production is called Marxism.
47:37
Uh so Carl, >> I couldn't find any evidence of Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders taking a victory lap on Trump's >> uh acquisition of Intel shares. >> Yes.
47:52
>> Uh which was surprising given that back in in the Biden admin era they were pushing for this. >> Yes.
47:57
But the key discussion that's going on right now is is financial uh financial ownership versus true control over capital.
48:06
And that's what Carl's going to get into here.
48:07
So he says, "Anyone old enough to remember the phrase government motors."
48:10
This is from the era of the take of the takeover of GM should be able to appreciate what a wild line of criticism this is to hear from a former Obama official.
48:19
As part of his troubled asset relief program, TARP, Obama took for the US government a 61% equity stake in General Motors and the rights backlash was entirely p predictable.
48:31
Rush Limbaugh called this a sterling example of the left's crusade for government control of business that proved the left's enchantment with socialism.
48:40
John Stal complained that this was a move toward more government control of the economy and in the end that's pretty close to socialism.
48:46
uh that so many liberals have adopted this line of criticism.
48:50
Joe Car Joe Scarboro took it up on Thursday and Democratic consultant Jessica Tar Tarlov ran with it on Friday for example should probably provoke some reflection among socialists who think of liberals as fellow travelers.
49:03
While socialists may share certain egalitarian values and other priorities with contemporary Democrats, American liberals are still reflexively ambivalent to hostile toward the basic socialist agenda of nationalization.
49:16
They will opportunistically support it when it's time for Democrats to bail out the economy, but they will aggressively attack it if they think if they think this will score points against Republicans.
49:24
There are a few things that contemporary liberals enjoy more than catching a Republican doing something that they can rightly or wrongly construe as socialist.
49:32
In this case, I would say wrongly.
49:34
Stangle's definition of Marxism as state ownership of the means of production is confused for all kinds of reasons.
49:40
But here are the most salient that uh but here the most salient is that ownership does not imply control.
49:47
Even if this was ordinary equity 10% would hardly give the government any kind of significant control over the company.
49:54
But as Intel made clear in a statement, this deal doesn't even give the government 10% control.
49:58
Quote the government >> but no no. So there's more.
50:01
The government's investment in Intel will be a passive ownership with no board representation or govern or other governance or information rights.
50:08
The government also agrees to vote with the company's board of directors on matters requiring shareholder approval with limited exceptions.
50:16
So this notion of passive ownership perfectly illustrates why socialist would would do well to talk about control rather than ownership of the means of production.
50:25
A major function of modern finance is to sever the relationship between those two.
50:29
To identify control, you have to look past the legal and business terminology and figure out who actually has the final say over any given lot of capital.
50:35
In that light, it isn't clear that 10% ownership stake even represents incremental progress towards control of Intel, which is what uh the socialists want.
50:45
Uh convincing a business to give you 10 a 10% non- voting stake in their company is very different than from getting a 10% voting stake, let alone a 51% voting stake.
50:53
Nevertheless, American partisans clearly aren't interested in litigating the fine details between ownership and control.
50:58
And that's why socialists have an interest in this fight.
51:01
If Democrats are going to vilify Trump as a socialist, the best response is to complain that he isn't even doing socialism. He's not doing enough.
51:09
>> He's not doing enough.
51:09
And so, um, my my my takeaway from this is that, uh, it's a good point.
51:14
Like, it is not the goal of socialists, but at the same time, it reaffirmed that I do not want to do the socialist thing here because I don't want the government voting on what Intel should do.
51:24
Like I don't think the government's equipped to make the decision on on how they should position against TSMC, where they fit in Apple Silicon versus TPU versus Tranium.
51:32
Like it just doesn't seem like the government's set up to actually run this company more effectively than anyone else.
51:39
And so I'm very hesitant about that.
51:43
It sounds like something that's like very good in some abstract sense to the socialists, but I have no I have no faith that if the government were to get a 51% voting stake in Intel that we would get a better outcome here.
51:58
>> Well, the better outcome people were talking about this on the timeline would be Trump answering questions on earnings calls.
52:04
>> That would be fantastic.
52:04
Maybe that's maybe that's a good outcome.
52:06
Yeah, but it'd be odd to have like uh I mean if we went to pure direct democracy and socialism like you go to the ballot box and you vote like are we going to do three nanometer like decide you decide like yes or no like I think it's I think it's a waste of vote >> or just have the the whoever's the Intel CEO just have that as you know an elected >> official like let the people vote on who should be running. >> Yeah.
52:34
I mean the question is like how much democracy do you want?
52:35
You can vote on everything.
52:37
You can vote every single day.
52:38
California is extremely democratic.
52:40
We have ballot measures for all sorts of things.
52:42
We tend to not do ballot measures for different things at the federal level.
52:45
We have representative democracy, not a direct democracy.
52:47
And but if you if you really play out the direct democracy socialism thing, it's like, yeah, you'll be voting on whether or not Intel launches a GPU.
52:54
Like Intel like, hey, we miss mobile.
52:58
What should we do about that?
53:00
Okay, let's ask the American people broadly at the ballot box.
53:03
like that that is the >> should Intel launch energy drinks.
53:09
>> Yeah, >> it's not really in our wheelhouse today, but you know, >> yeah, >> big potentially large opportunity.
53:14
>> Yeah, it just it does seem it does seem fraud.
53:17
It it doesn't seem like it seems like they're there.
53:21
>> It's potentially one of the slipperiest slopes that we've ever been on as a country. >> Well, I don't know.
53:26
This is saying that like we're like like his point is that this isn't this isn't a step towards real socialism because it's not real control.
53:34
It's it's purely a financial instrument. >> Yeah.
53:38
But the Intel board said uh the government also agrees to vote with a company's board of directors on matters requiring shareholder approval with limited exceptions.
53:47
So what are the exceptions? Right.
53:49
Uh I'm not sure not sure that we know but anyways the time >> the analysis says it's a bad idea. We can vote against you. That's the exception.
53:58
Anyway, uh first step I would vote for if I was uh a uh in in a democratic socialist society, I would vote that Intel gets on graphite. dev.
54:08
Code review for the age of AI.
54:08
Graphite helps team is on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. Get started for free.
54:15
Canor in the chat says, "I think Intel needs to launch short form content."
54:19
>> Well, uh make sure your voter registration is up tod date because uh President AOC might just make it happen. You never know. >> I could see it. I could see it. >> Possible.
54:28
Um I mean the the the the real wild one is yeah Tesla because Tesla's had uh a number of government incentives that they've taken advantage of.
54:36
You could make the same argument.
54:38
You put the screws to them and you say hey we need we need voting shares for this >> for the years and years.
54:45
>> This is what Andrew Andrew Sorcin was saying.
54:46
He was saying like yeah like where like where do you stop?
54:48
And I understand that yeah, there is this like slippery slope, but uh to Bill Gurley's point, like Intel could have said no.
54:57
They could have said like, "Yeah, we're actually going to be fine without the chips act money."
55:00
And so we don't want we don't want an equity stake.
55:03
Although >> Bhutan is sitting there just on fire and she's being like, "You don't need to help.
55:09
You don't need to help put it out. I'll be good. I'll be good."
55:11
The flames are just >> like, "No, I'm I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'll cut more."
55:17
It's like I don't want to I don't want to give the president I don't want to give the president the ick.
55:21
I'm just act all like >> hey I mean Blackberry is a cyber security company now.
55:25
Maybe Intel just like pivots all the way down to just like yeah we we actually just own real estate at this point like like all we own we're real estate and we just lease to uh TSMC and that's it.
55:36
We're we're completely out of design. I don't know.
55:42
>> Um timeline was in turmoil earlier.
55:45
Daniel uh Tenerero said, "The Emily's son bergification of everything you love continues a pace."
55:50
I don't know what that means.
55:52
Emily fires back and says, "Keep my name out of your mouth.
55:55
If you came to the party I hosted with TVN and you didn't say hello to me." >> He said hello to me. I don't know.
56:00
There were a lot of people.
56:03
>> There were a lot of people.
56:03
There were a lot of people.
56:04
>> But uh we got to get get some sound effects for that.
56:06
Um >> I see multiple journalists on the horizon. >> Who's a journalist?
56:10
Well, I mean, uh, there were multiple journalist.
56:12
Uh, in another life, Emily Emily could have been a journalist.
56:15
But anyways, you guys, you guys should, um, >> Emily Sun and just debate. >> Oh, that'd be good. >> Yel Y. >> Yeah, that's great.
56:25
>> Um, >> Andrew Reed is highlighting some small cap sellside research notes.
56:29
Um, under the uh, what what company is this? >> I have no idea. >> CMRC.
56:37
Uh, there are some things that just go better together.
56:39
Austin and live music, text and mechs, smoked brisket and just about anything.
56:43
And perhaps commerce and the next wave of AIdriven agentic discoverability.
56:50
>> Oh, this is for big commerce.
56:50
Probably big summit commerce is Oh, maybe maybe they just rebranded as just commerce, but it used to be big commerce.
56:57
>> Commerce >> for and commerce. com. Big Commerce. >> Big Commerce.
57:01
And it was it was a competitor to uh to Shopify, >> I believe. Yeah.
57:05
And they did not have a go.
57:07
I have I have a buddy who was like I think Shopify is overrated. I'm going long Shopify.
57:11
I'm going short Shopify long Big Commerce because I think that there's like too much of a delta there like uh and I think that trade went very poorly.
57:20
I'm not sure exactly executed it >> down 93.
57:23
>> But this one went way down and Shopify went way up. >> Commerce.
57:25
com though is a pretty hard domain.
57:28
>> It is a good domain, but you need more than that.
57:29
You need you need a a goated team. >> Yep.
57:34
Uh, Silicon Valley launches pro AI packs to defend industry in midterm elections.
57:41
>> Uh, Andre Horowitz and OpenAI President Greg Brockman are among those helping launch and fund leading the future. >> Leading the future.
57:48
>> Silicon Valley is putting more than hund00 million into a network of political action committees and organizations to advocate against strict artificial intelligence regulations.
57:55
A signal that tech executives will be active in next year's midterm elections.
58:02
Well, if you want to analyze where all that $100 million will go, you got to get on Julius.
58:05
What analysis do you want to run, chat with your data, and get expert level insights in seconds?
58:08
Love by two million users and counting. >> Two billion soon. Many are saying this.
58:18
>> Um, so A16Z and Greg Brockman are among those helping launch and fund leading the future, a new super PAC network focused on AI.
58:25
There's been a lot of rumblings around these this idea, but uh no one's gotten it off the ground to the to the tune of hund00 million yet.
58:32
Uh uh the head of government affairs Colin Mcun and Brock Brockman and OpenAI chief global affairs officer Chris Leane were involved in initial conversations earlier this year uh and about the need to help shape industry friendly policies.
58:51
Leading the Future hopes to use campaign donations and digital ads to advocate for select AI policies and oppose candidates who the group believes will stifle the industry at large.
58:59
One of its goals is to push back against a movement backed by some other tech titans that focuses on regulated regulating AI models before they get too powerful and create catastrophic risks.
59:10
>> This is tech titan on tech titan team deathmatch.
59:13
>> This is absolutely love it.
59:15
>> The organization said it isn't pushing for total deregulation but wants sensible guardrails.
59:18
So there I mean the main debate is like is like is there going to be the AI FDA?
59:22
I think this was a talking point that I heard on allin years ago and I heard repeated in in Washington from a uh uh someone in the House of Representatives.
59:35
Um this idea that there should be a government organization that like reviews and tests models before they get deployed.
59:42
And very clearly that would that would slow down progress like significantly significantly because um like I mean Deep Seek ships a model without even the updating the model card and they're just like yeah run your own benchmarks like we we're not testing this thing. We're just releasing.
59:57
>> We don't have time for that.
59:58
>> It's it's on Hugging Face and so might be wildly dangerous.
1:00:00
>> Imagine if you >> you can figure it out.
1:00:01
Let us let us know in the comments if this is >> before you release to Hugging Face like you need to go through some sort of like FDA style regulation that could take years.
1:00:09
Um that's going to really really slow things down.
1:00:11
um probably be bad for the industry overall.
1:00:14
Um maybe it creates a little bit more uh monopoly power for companies that have the resources to get through that process, but uh would be would be very very difficult.
1:00:24
Uh and it would certainly hurt the the roll out of like small models depending on how it was because if you just say like any you can't deploy any neural network of a certain scale or size like how are you even defining that all of a sudden?
1:00:38
uh like do you have to approve the latest reals algorithm before you uh before you like update that?
1:00:47
That's something that's updating all the time.
1:00:48
Um the the future of these models is like much much more iterative than uh like one big release.
1:00:55
So it seems like it seems sort of out.
1:00:57
>> Equally important, Shiel uh is on the timeline right now highlighting that Greg Brockman married his wife Anna at the OpenAI office on a workday. Ilia was the officient. >> That's amazing.
1:01:08
which is absolutely amazing. >> Love to see it.
1:01:11
If you are a busy executive, consider marrying your wife in the office with your co-founder as the officient.
1:01:18
There's some good precedents here now. >> Absolute dog.
1:01:21
I really hope Ilia goes back to OpenAI.
1:01:23
That'd be such a fun twist. >> We'll see it.
1:01:28
>> Anyway, um if you're trying to get your brand mentioned in chatbt, go to profound. >> Could be.
1:01:33
reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover new products and brand and brands >> used by MongoDB, Indeed, Docyign, Zapier, Ramp, Missouri, Workable, EightLe, US Bank, Chime. >> It's a good crew. >> Good crew.
1:01:49
Uh, many tech executives worry that Congress won't pass AI rules, creating a patchwork of state laws that hurt their companies.
1:01:55
Uh earlier this year, a push by some Republicans to ban state AI bills for 10 years was shot down after opposition from other conservatives who opposed a blanket prohibition on any state AI legislation.
1:02:08
It does seem very difficult to deal with state-by-state regulation when you're running an internet.
1:02:13
>> The chat is adding some commentary.
1:02:13
QSBs rollover says little language models are threatened. >> Yeah.
1:02:18
Yeah, that >> we must defend the little language models.
1:02:21
Taylor says, "USG doesn't realize the future of LLM proliferation looks more like the AK-47 and less like the bomb." >> Well, yeah.
1:02:30
I mean, maybe that's a bold case for for state regulation since most of uh I mean there are some federal regulations obviously, but a lot of it state-bystate.
1:02:38
Um the California compliant AR-15, the California compliant LLM will be severely nerfed.
1:02:47
>> It certainly cannot do physics.
1:02:49
>> It certainly cannot do physics.
1:02:49
That would be too dangerous.
1:02:52
>> Anyway, uh linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products.
1:02:55
Meet the system for modern software development, streamline issues, projects, and product road maps.
1:02:57
Uh leading the future will generally align with the White House AI and cryptosar, David Saxs.
1:03:03
A frequent critic of AI doomers.
1:03:05
The organization plans to start work in four states seen as key AI policy battlegrounds, New York, California, Illinois, and Ohio.
1:03:12
Uh the group said it would support both Democrats and Republicans and would include federal and state packs and a 501c4 o organization that advocates for policies.
1:03:23
The network's AI campaign is expected to start later this year.
1:03:25
Uh one of the best known venture capital firms, Adrien Horwitz is also big backer of Fairshake.
1:03:31
Billionaire co-founder Mark Andre was one of the most notable tech executives to support Donald Trump last year after previously boosting Democrats.
1:03:40
uh part of a swing in Silicon Valley toward conservatives.
1:03:43
The shift has worried some Democrats who fear they may be hemorrhaging support without more positive messaging around AI.
1:03:47
Uh Brockman co-founded Chad GPT maker OpenAI along CEO Sam Alman and others and is now one of AI Alman's top deputies.
1:03:55
He is contributing to the new group with his wife Anna Brockman who he married um and yes this is the this is the quote on a workday.
1:04:02
Other backers include 8VC managing partner in Palunteer Technologies co-founder Joe Lndale, AI search engine Perplexity and veteran angel investor Ron Conway is in the deal. So certainly bipartisan.
1:04:13
Uh well, it'll be fun to track that and see what kind of billboards they're buying, what kind of out ofome advertising they're doing, what what kind of uh maybe they should head over to adquick. com.
1:04:24
Out of home advertising made easy and measurable.
1:04:28
I was actually just talking about, you know, like a lot of these packs, they run like attack ads or they run, you know, policy ads.
1:04:33
They put out policy papers.
1:04:34
There's a variety of things that they can do.
1:04:36
But >> let's get a lead the futures packs spending.
1:04:39
I would say like at least half, you know, the hund00 million on uh on adquick.
1:04:44
We'll uh we'll work on making it happen.
1:04:45
But without further ado, >> we have our first guest in the reream room. Darren, how are you? >> Welcome to the show. >> How we doing? We're doing great. >> We're doing great. >> Excited to have you.
1:04:59
>> What a fantastic backdrop that this is not a virtual background. Correct. >> No, it is not.
1:05:03
It's uh it's a oneofont painting of Kobe Bryant called un unfinished business.
1:05:09
And uh you know, I was pretty close to Kobe and to have them in my office staring at me uh making me do my best every day that you know that's a good thing.
1:05:19
I over the weekend I rewatched uh the Kobe Bryant Widen and Kennedy ad campaign. The Kobe system.
1:05:26
Are you familiar with this Jordy?
1:05:28
Are you familiar with this Kobe system ad campaign? It is remarkable.
1:05:29
It it's like this bizarre blend of comedy uh all in promotion of the latest uh run of shoes.
1:05:38
But uh we we we should watch and dig into that at some point because it is fantastic.
1:05:42
Uh anyway, could you give us a little bit of background and introduction on yourself just for those who might not be familiar? >> Sure.
1:05:48
Uh I was at ESPN for 13 years covering the business of sports.
1:05:51
Uh did that for 6 years at CNBC.
1:05:54
Uh then went over to gambling, the quant kind of gambling side with the action network.
1:06:01
Sold to a Danish company called Better Collective.
1:06:03
And for the last um year and a half, I've been running collect which is on one side pretty much the best journalism source proudly um in covering collectibles.
1:06:16
Uh we also advise teams, leagues and brands on uh what to do in collectibles, building their bespoke collectibles.
1:06:24
Uh have 13 clients and excited about that side business.
1:06:27
Um >> what's on the frontier of like collectibles?
1:06:34
What's uh what what's something where that you've seen like a team or league do that's kind of out of the typical path?
1:06:42
Um, well, we we actually just helped the uh the Washington Capitals do a a piece that teams have never done before.
1:06:48
So, like our our idea is if we're advising you um you're going to make something cool, we'll stand in the background and be white label.
1:06:57
So, when Alexander Obetkin broke 895 goals, the the all-time NHL record, uh I literally was shoveling the ice that came off the Zamboni.
1:07:11
Uh after the second period, uh we got 125 gallons of ice.
1:07:15
We put them in uh these kind of like receptacles that then looks like it's the real ice.
1:07:25
Uh, it's a mini rink and you get it in a cherrywood box and the 8.
1:07:27
95 on the back has the shavings from the gold stick that uh, Ovuchkin was presented with by the NHL. So, 1,500 bucks range.
1:07:38
You know, these are high-end things that teams have never done before.
1:07:43
So, those those type of things we're we're working on. >> That's very cool.
1:07:48
Let's talk about the $13 million card.
1:07:51
uh and the buyer that was just announced.
1:07:55
Can you break down kind of the the significance of of that deal, how how it came to be and and kind of what you expect out of >> Yeah.
1:08:02
So, this is very non-traditional.
1:08:05
When you hear about uh cards, you think about the most valuable and two cards come up.
1:08:11
The T2 206 Honest Wagner uh from 1990 1911 and of course the 1952 Tops Mickey man.
1:08:19
For the most part, for all time, that has been one and two alternating with the small exception of Mike Trout for a little bit.
1:08:26
Um, >> and how often do those actually trade like reprice effectively?
1:08:33
>> So, it dep it depends on what what grades.
1:08:35
So, um, like so a PSA 8, eight out of 10 of a of a mantle will trade maybe twice a year.
1:08:43
A PSA 9 will trade maybe once every two or three years. and a PSA 10 mantle. There's three of them.
1:08:54
They're probably in order for someone to to trade it at this point among those three guys, they'd probably have to get 40 million for it.
1:09:00
So that hasn't traded in 10 years. >> Wow.
1:09:05
>> Um the the the Honesses, there's 60 of them.
1:09:08
They trade usually once a year.
1:09:11
Um, and now you have these other cards, these modern cards, which in 2003, Upper Deck started coming out with these exquisite and logo man cards essentially gives you signed uh from a couple of players and then patches of that where Upper Deck says that it's been representative to them that this is a game use patch.
1:09:32
And these cards back then were $35,000 to $100,000.
1:09:40
In the last five years, they've become easy million-dollar cards.
1:09:42
And you know, there's not many of them.
1:09:45
Most of them are one of one.
1:09:46
So, the Kobe LeBron, the a Kobe Jordan, whatever.
1:09:49
And this one was seen as kind of the most coveted.
1:09:55
Um, couple years ago, probably would have sold for 5 million bucks.
1:09:57
And now there's a lot of interest.
1:09:58
Um, there's interests from the people that bought it.
1:10:03
uh Kevin Olirri and Matt Allen started secure collectibles which is essentially we think um a fund to buy into these modern cards.
1:10:13
Previously we've had like funds for like vintage and get into these vintage cards but the modern cards seem to be the ones that people are into.
1:10:22
Um and uh it's hard for me.
1:10:25
I have about a $15 million collection.
1:10:27
I've been collecting for 20 years.
1:10:29
It's hard for me to get into the modern cards. What is that?
1:10:31
I dropped uh I dropped >> No, no.
1:10:34
It's just a big number, so I had to swear.
1:10:36
That's a huge collection. Congrats. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:10:38
So, uh but I don't really I collect real oneof ones.
1:10:41
To me, this is I'm not trying to to shoot it down, but this is manufactured scarcity, right?
1:10:48
The car company says it's one of one.
1:10:50
>> I'm collecting something that's like really one of one, like, you know.
1:10:52
Well, this has played out somewhat in the in the car world as well.
1:10:57
Like, you know, I think from from what I understand, like the the sort of true classic Ferrari market has >> somewhat slowed it in that uh >> the the younger generation, the Instagram generation, uh the millennials are probably more focused on some of these modern supercars.
1:11:16
Like they might be more interested in a acquiring an SP3. >> Yeah. That that has happened.
1:11:21
that has definitely happened.
1:11:24
Um, you know, the question becomes obviously the $13 million card.
1:11:30
So, so, so this card now has surpassed on the price alone, the honus and the and the and the mantle.
1:11:39
You know, the question is like there's there's a lot of people still collecting a lot of these modern cards and they rely on we're in a degenerate economy and my my friend Howard Linden, that's his term that he loves.
1:11:48
Um, and uh, you know, my my son opens up packs and he's 11 years old and if it doesn't have a number on it, if it's not out of 25 or have a gold little foil or whatever, he literally throws it in the garbage. It's in the garbage.
1:12:05
And you're having these businesses now that are >> So, are we getting are we getting the the youth hooked on on gambling at a young age?
1:12:13
Is that is that is that >> I think everything is on tilt.
1:12:14
So, so if they're not gambling, straight up gambling, they're they they know about Bitcoin already.
1:12:23
They know about things that trade nonstop.
1:12:25
You know, the stock market stops.
1:12:28
Um uh and so they're always like these repacks.
1:12:32
Have you seen how these digital repacks?
1:12:37
>> Basically, what happens is you open up cards that they've scanned in the system. Okay?
1:12:42
So they've opened the packs, they have cards, they've scanned in the system.
1:12:46
You open it, it it spins, it opens, it's like a slot, >> and then if you and then if you don't get what you love, now you could you could take that, they could send it to you.
1:12:57
If you don't get what you love, you could sell it back immediately at 80% of the value.
1:13:01
Now, normally you'd say 80%. That's horrible.
1:13:05
Like I lost 20% and you know, that's that's so bad.
1:13:10
However, if you come in from a gambling world, 80%'s great cuz it's a zero sum game, right?
1:13:17
Like if you're gambling, when you lost, you lost. It's zero.
1:13:18
And so if you compare it against the gambling world, so these companies are, you know, this company Courtyard July, they did $60 million in repacks and they're making the delta every time someone returns something back or if they're shipping it to them.
1:13:33
And so, yeah, I mean, we're we're all on tilt right now. We can't go back.
1:13:38
>> Yeah, that makes sense.
1:13:38
Um, what is the give us a read on the overall state of the collectibles market right now?
1:13:48
>> On absolutely on fire.
1:13:48
I mean, if you go to Fanatics Fest, if you go to the National Sports Collectors Convention, uh, 125, 150,000 people, kids walking around with briefcases with $30,000 worth of cards.
1:14:01
Um, it it is it is not what it was when I was a kid.
1:14:04
I think the energy is there, but the the money and the I mean, it's it's outrageous.
1:14:11
There there are going to be things that will pop.
1:14:14
I don't think the whole thing is a bubble, but there are a bunch of things that don't make sense.
1:14:18
Um, I think there's just a lot of very interesting markets.
1:14:23
PSA, which grades everything, just started grading magazines, you know.
1:14:27
So, what what magazines do you want to grade?
1:14:30
I I I say, okay, like everyone finds their own niche.
1:14:35
For me, it's it's Hollywood debuts.
1:14:38
The first time someone is has come on a on a magazine, right? And so, hold on. Hold on one second. Hold on one second. No worries.
1:14:45
Let's bring this let's bring this bin over here.
1:14:49
>> We need PSA graded arena mags and colossal.
1:14:52
>> So, you know, we got let's see.
1:14:52
I mean like this is a beautiful >> Forbes, >> you know, you got you got the craw daddy, you know, Acroy Belushi, >> you know that that that's an early that's an early one.
1:15:04
You got the first time John Candy appeared on a magazine in 1985.
1:15:08
A Canadian only, you know, you got the first Ralph Machio here.
1:15:15
>> I I just appreciate how how I know I know I know like two out of the 10 names. >> Yeah, right. Exactly.
1:15:21
um uh give it but but talk about the shape of the market and who the kind of key players are.
1:15:26
I know that e eBay uh at at some point or another I think people were kind of writing them off but they seem to have >> no the the the issue is that live commerce is the thing you know and right now eBay live is just not as great as whatnot um which is just doing tons of business um and and so they're they're a little bit behind I think >> so the so live is and And live is is dominating the traditional auction.
1:16:02
>> Live is dominating and a lot of it has to do with breaking, which is also gambling.
1:16:05
So I told you about repacks. Breaking.
1:16:08
Breaking is essentially I buy a team, >> right?
1:16:12
So like let's say I spend $3,000 and I want to buy the Golden State Warriors and they open up a box and all these people are watching.
1:16:19
Do I get a Steph Curry >> or do I get and if you don't get one, they have to give you kind of some sort of card because otherwise it's an illegal lottery.
1:16:31
>> Again, these things are on the cusp of will attorney general, you know, get into these and say these are this is gambling.
1:16:38
But yes, these are breaking is is just another reason why, you know, live is just going crazy.
1:16:45
>> And what's Fanatic strategy been to date?
1:16:47
I know they've been inquisitive and they now have an advantage, right, in terms of actually >> they have all the rights.
1:16:53
They have all the rights.
1:16:54
They're about to take over the NBA rights.
1:16:56
They have the Major League Baseball rights through Tops.
1:17:00
They're about to take over the NFL rights.
1:17:01
Uh they have Fanatics Live, which is breaking.
1:17:04
Um they, you know, clearly have a lot.
1:17:08
They have Fanatics Collect, which is uh their auction house.
1:17:12
So they're really really involved in the game to a point of you know almost or definitely monopoly power. >> Interesting.
1:17:23
>> What do you think of Labou?
1:17:23
We got a question in the chat.
1:17:28
[Music] [Laughter] >> I I I I think it's hard to figure out.
1:17:33
See, the key to PSA and the key to the growth of collectibles has been population reports.
1:17:38
Tell me exactly how many there are. Right?
1:17:41
So, I can tell you there's only three Mickey Mantel PSA 10s, right?
1:17:48
On Laboo, it gives me the odds, but I feel like I need to know live how many have been opened.
1:17:53
How many have like how do we figure out how to have population reports and grading these things?
1:18:01
Because that's what gives you like the the the the want and the wish to say okay I want to invest in these things other than just have again that's just a these mystery boxes are another way to gamble. >> Yeah. The degenerate economy.
1:18:15
What what about in the business collectibles space?
1:18:20
Uh, I know there's there there was this uh signed Steve Jobs business card that traded, but what are you track? >> I like I like jobs.
1:18:28
Uh, I was worried about the number of checks that came out.
1:18:32
I am one of two people who own a Steve Jobs uh uh signature that says go change the world.
1:18:38
Um, I think that's a that's a cool one that I'm holding on to.
1:18:42
Um, I own the largest Warren Buffett signature in the world.
1:18:46
It's 2 feet long on 18 uncut unc circulated dollar bills. Wow.
1:18:52
>> I think, you know, when Warren passes, I think someone's going to want that on on their wall.
1:18:57
Um, I'm going to I'm going to hold for now.
1:19:01
>> Um, >> do you think there's a do you think there's a a potential play to build a a kind of vertical marketplace for just business collectibles, or is that not the way? >> Yeah, for sure.
1:19:10
I I I h I have every Bergkshire Hathaway uh meeting pass from 1996 to 2025. That's incredible.
1:19:16
Um I don't The hardest one to get is 2000.
1:19:20
I just got it, so I'm really excited about um the business cards are tough though because unless they're signed, it's hard to figure out if they're real.
1:19:30
Yeah, we're in a unique position where we're we were recently at the Figma IPO and we brought a special gong and had the CEO Dylan Field ring the gong and we were thinking about how we should evolve that maybe and we have a big studio here.
1:19:43
We can hang them from the raft gameong game hit gongs or something where they sign the at the IPO.
1:19:51
>> That would be pretty good. >> Okay.
1:19:52
I I don't know that we're doing it for it's more just for lore at this point than than ROI.
1:19:56
>> Yeah, but if you had if you had if you had a hundred gongs, you know, that would be kind of cool.
1:20:00
We'll work we'll work on that.
1:20:02
>> I always tell I always tell teams, you know, when you have a concert of a of an important figure in there, you should give them some custom thing and then you should have your own custom thing so that you get it signed. >> Yeah.
1:20:13
No, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
1:20:15
>> But it's a Listen, it's a it's a fun vertical.
1:20:18
It's um you know, if you know what you're doing, I think like anything, you should have a take, >> right?
1:20:24
you should have a strong take and you shouldn't be a follower, >> you know, like why do you think something should increase in value and I jump all over the place in terms of trying to get into markets every day?
1:20:33
I think the Beatles costly but still has a huge runup. >> Yeah. >> Right.
1:20:40
There's two guys still alive, you know.
1:20:42
How do you figure all that stuff out? >> Yeah.
1:20:44
Is there is there a cottage industry of people like specifically in music collectibles that are just focused on acquiring assets from artists that are emerging today? >> Yes.
1:20:55
>> Or or do people typically kind of wait too late to start taking an artist seriously?
1:21:01
>> Well, again, it's like it's it's not too late, right?
1:21:04
It's it's it's it's not too late in music because I think again we're still so behind um you know, Billy Joel, right?
1:21:12
like every you could see there's now there's there's a fervor for Billy Joel type stuff.
1:21:17
You could still get some good stuff.
1:21:19
Now you can't get his own his first concert at MSG cuz I own the only two in the world and I'll have to sell it to you.
1:21:26
But you know there you you can get into these things.
1:21:31
It's not it really is not too late. It's never too late.
1:21:34
You have to just say okay at the price it is now what type of upside does it have?
1:21:38
But in music in general, I think Billy Joel, Bon Joy, Springsteen, Madonna, all early early days.
1:21:48
>> Um, how do uh influencers play into the world of collectibles?
1:21:52
I I've followed the story of Ed Bolan and the Lamborghini Mercielago market where he kind of figured out that there were maybe less of a certain type.
1:22:01
maybe less of a certain type. uh the I think it was particularly particularly manual transmission uh LP640s uh the the market had estimated that maybe it was like you know 60% people went for automatic when that car came out and when he actually put all the VINs together figured out all the
1:22:20
numbers it was more like 99% of people had selected automatic and then he popularized that through a series of YouTube videos and I believe the market really caught up because of that does that happen you have any stories around that >> yeah I mean I I boot I controlled the ticket market. So when when PSA said
1:22:35
So when when PSA said they were coming out with grading tickets, I said, "Okay, I got to find the hundred best tickets of all time.
1:22:42
I got to be really quiet about it."
1:22:44
And then a year later, I got to say, "Hey, tickets are great."
1:22:47
Now, this was not just a pump on me because I should say that I've only sold about 1% of my collection.
1:22:53
However, I bought Tiger Woods first PGA Tour event for $1,000 and then a year later sold it for 77,000.
1:23:01
you know, so I was able to, you know, so >> yeah, underwrite the entire collection.
1:23:07
>> So some big Yeah, there were there were definitely some ridiculous pops.
1:23:09
I bought the uh the the nicest full ticket of Marilyn Monroe singing Happy Birthday to JFK.
1:23:16
Bought it for 6,000, sold it for 105,000.
1:23:21
Um you know, so like there you give me another one. There we go.
1:23:23
Uh so so um yeah, you you can influence markets. Um and I do.
1:23:29
Uh but again I it's genuine, right?
1:23:33
I love I love I love tickets. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:23:35
I mean at a certain point like what Ed Bolan did with Lamborghini was like very much factf finding.
1:23:38
He wasn't he wasn't manipulating the market.
1:23:41
He was just bringing extra >> sharing information. Yeah.
1:23:43
I do I do do you worry that do you worry that uh that so many so many different things in our lives have gone digital which just reduces the number of like >> collect.
1:23:56
But is that is that a is that a positive or a negative? Right. No, it's a good point.
1:24:00
>> And and I I would say in collectibles, you can't appeal to every audience.
1:24:03
The ticket market is going to really appeal to the 40 to 65 year old person right now. And guess what?
1:24:12
>> Those are the people that have the most money to spend.
1:24:14
So, should I feel bad that I'm not that that that the 20 to 35year-old doesn't care about my market? No.
1:24:21
I especially if you have one of ones, right?
1:24:24
like, you know, I have the only 1899 silver certificate that was in the pocket of a guy who died on the Titanic.
1:24:31
Like, >> okay, my market isn't that liquid, but I need two people. I don't need 700. >> Yep. Yeah. >> Right.
1:24:39
And that's really that's really where, you know, for my philosophy, it's like the real one of ones. Yes.
1:24:43
In if you collect cards, you immediately know how much that's worth usually if it's not a one of one because you go on eBay and it sold yesterday. To me, that's not fun.
1:24:54
I I like to buy real one of ones where someone says, "Hey, I'll pay uh I'll I'll pay you $20,000 for Disney uh paying his 1962 taxes, his check."
1:25:03
And I'd say, "No, I want 30."
1:25:09
You're not going to go and find it somewhere else, so you either pay me or whatever.
1:25:13
So, you know, the the the real one of one markets are less liquid, uh but in a lot of ways, they're more secure if you really believe in it. Yeah.
1:25:22
Uh what we have we have some space here in the studio.
1:25:25
Uh we we would like to acquire a car that has some uh like you know uh provenence with uh a great technology CEO.
1:25:37
I don't know that we we're we'd be in the market for Elon's F1 yet.
1:25:42
He crashed with uh with PT, right?
1:25:45
Uh but but what is there is there a great uh is there a great uh former vehicle of a of a Silicon Valley >> there are a bunch of there are a bunch of replica cars that were exact replica cars that sold uh on Saturday.
1:25:58
Uh there was a Ghostbusters replica hearse.
1:26:03
There was two Jurassic Park Jeep vehicles which were kind of cool.
1:26:09
Um >> I'm trying to think of like what normally if someone Larry Ellison, you know, Larry Ellison's McLaren F1 just went to auction. 23 million. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:26:22
Just out of the price range for us, but hopefully.
1:26:25
>> Which is interesting because because often if you have houses owned by celebrities >> or houses that were used in movies, people think that it ups the value.
1:26:32
It actually decreases the value. >> Interesting.
1:26:36
People who are buying these houses at the three to5 million level or the $20 million level, they don't care that a movie was filmed in there or a celebrity had it.
1:26:48
They just care about what are the bones and how much do I have to redo.
1:26:52
>> There's a there's a the house that was used uh in Hannah, Montana is near me in Malibu. Okay.
1:26:58
And if you owned it, it would actually be extremely frustrating because every single day >> typically European tourists are taking pictures in front of it.
1:27:08
So you'd just be constantly in the background of just random photos. >> Yeah.
1:27:12
That's that's kind of that's like what happened with the Home Alone House in uh you know in Illinois, you know, it's people just keep coming by.
1:27:17
You become part of house tours. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:27:20
Do you think uh like how do you think the internet and modern technology are changing like the creation of collectibles?
1:27:25
Because I when I think about tickets, I feel like almost everything's digital now, people don't really get the physical tickets.
1:27:32
And so maybe what some of the your work and what you're doing consulting with folks like uh allows for the creation of new unique collectibles that kind of fill that, but are we seeing like net more inventory or less inventory?
1:27:44
Uh there's just so I feel like so many products whether I used to give someone a DVD box set or a book and now it's uh Yeah, you probably have it on Spotify anyway. Just go. >> Yeah.
1:27:57
And and I was I asked generally about this a bit earlier, but but also is there did you ever get excited about new technology like NFTTS that >> I so so I think there's I think there's actually the shame of it is that blockchain got thrown out with N with the NFT decline and I don't think they should be together.
1:28:16
Um blockchain uh has great applications um just really really good for future uh for counterfeiting for everything in this space that we've been struggle for for for friction right you can move something frictionless you don't have to get it graded then put it on eBay and so I I I do think that that uh I I'm not sure the NFTts unfortunately I think a lot of it was just grift and garbage And it just it it just is what it was.
1:28:50
And it and because bad actors gravitated to it, I think it got a bad reputation.
1:28:58
>> I don't think all them deserve that.
1:28:58
And I certainly think that blockchain has significant applications.
1:29:02
I think we just need >> a little bit more time away and it and it will emerge. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:29:09
We we we had a a founder CEO of an NFT company called Pudgy Penguins on the show and they've kind of gone backwards where uh they're focused on creating uh real products in the real world uh and and kind of bootstrapping the community that way.
1:29:26
They've already done the NFT launch and that's kind of been >> it's almost going back through typical licensing going Exactly.
1:29:31
And uh and I think it's worked out really.
1:29:34
I I just saw one gifted from a uh from a grandmother to a grandson and uh and and I had no idea that that there was any connection there.
1:29:44
So uh certainly at least that company's kind of figured out a way to >> But I do think that the the the young population does like physical still. >> Yeah. >> When it's available. >> Totally. Perfect.
1:29:55
Uh well, thank you so much for hopping on. This is fantastic.
1:29:58
Anytime there's uh any anytime more something in the news, hit us up.
1:30:02
We'd love to have you on to break it down. >> Fantastic. >> Thanks, guys. Cheers. Talk to you soon.
1:30:07
Let me tell you about numeral sales tax and autopilot.
1:30:08
Spend less than 5 minutes per month on sales tax compliance in numeralhq. com. And we have Dr.
1:30:12
Drew in the waiting room in the reream reading room. We're bringing in Dr.
1:30:18
Drew to hear the real story of Dr.
1:30:23
I botched the story earlier on the stream. if you're turning in.
1:30:25
In my defense, I believe I was 9 years old at the time.
1:30:30
Um, but I'm glad to have Dr.
1:30:33
Drew here on the show hopefully. Let's bring in uh Dr. Drew Pinsky. Um, how are we doing? >> There we go. >> Can you hear us?
1:30:45
>> Welcome to the stream. Hello.
1:30:47
>> We are working on audio. Let's sort that out.
1:30:51
And in the meantime, let me tell you about Finn. ai.
1:30:54
AI, the number one AI agent for customer service, number one in performance benchmarks, number one in competitive bakeoffs, number one ranking on G2 Finn. ai.
1:31:04
Um, production team, tell me how we are doing.
1:31:06
Hopefully, we can get Dr. Drew in.
1:31:09
I believe >> we're having audio issues.
1:31:10
We will jump into the timeline.
1:31:16
>> I can also just have him call my phone.
1:31:18
>> I'm hearing something. >> Can you hear us? Oh, hello. >> You hear me? >> Oh, wow. >> Wow. Looking sharp.
1:31:22
You really >> you really undersold this.
1:31:25
You said you were just going to do a phone call and now here you are.
1:31:30
>> No, I thought I the full monty here cuz >> this is amazing.
1:31:32
Okay, so first off, I need to apologize.
1:31:34
I completely botched the story of drtj. com.
1:31:36
In my defense, I believe I was 10 years old when I stopped by the office as a as a kid.
1:31:40
Uh but please break it down for us. >> It's so funny.
1:31:44
The the only thing I found disturbing was how how miserably you did with my credentials. >> Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
1:31:51
>> Let me start with that. >> Okay. I'm a physician.
1:31:52
I'm a board certified internist.
1:31:54
I'm a boardcertified addictionist.
1:31:56
I'm a fellow with the American board college of physicians.
1:32:00
I'm got mult I was assistant clinical professor of psychiatry practice medicine my whole life. I'm not a psychologist. >> Okay.
1:32:06
Yeah, >> we did do love line back in the day. >> I love Line.
1:32:08
I I sincerely love Loveline.
1:32:10
I wish I listened to it constantly. It was amazing.
1:32:13
>> Well, it it was very popular and it served a function back in the day, but but this this business spun out of it.
1:32:16
I thought you guys would really like to hear this history because it is a piece of history. Incredible.
1:32:23
>> U good friend of mine from high school, polytenic high school. >> Yeah.
1:32:29
>> We we went off to Ammeris College and then he went to Harvard Business School.
1:32:32
I went to medical school and uh I'm going along doing all these wild things uh practicing medicine and then doing radio.
1:32:39
And he shows up and he goes, "I want to I want to show you how to form a business.
1:32:42
We're going to do a dot company."
1:32:44
And of course, I was hearing about all the dot stuff in the in the wind.
1:32:47
and he got some seed capital from a company in Orange County like a million dollars >> and then he put together a little board and we went he grabbed me by the arm and took me up to Sand Hill Road and we sat at Softback Soft Bank rather >> and made he just said follow me I go what are we doing what are we I had no idea what we were doing didn't know how to start a business I didn't >> had you had you bought your.
1:33:10
com by the way had you like gone out >> probably had done something like that at that point I don't I don't sitting there without that. >> Yeah, exactly.
1:33:20
>> And uh and he just goes, "Follow me." And I was like, "Okay."
1:33:23
So I followed along and they go, "What do you want to do?"
1:33:26
And I'm like, you know, "Well, so I sort of I don't remember what I said, but uh the six or seven soft bank VC representatives marched out of the room and uh my Harvard Business School friend was anxious and like I didn't even understand what was happening. Still, I did not."
1:33:44
and they came back in and they go, "Okay, $10 million." >> That was that. >> Let's go.
1:33:53
>> We went down and we built the company exactly as you described.
1:33:55
But in fact, it drove my wife crazy.
1:33:57
She goes, "What are people doing here?
1:33:59
Why aren't they why aren't they working there?
1:34:00
We shouldn't it shouldn't be this nice an environment."
1:34:03
But most of that was for the tech team.
1:34:06
And you pointed out how weird the tech situation was.
1:34:08
You got that part exactly right.
1:34:10
But the part you got wrong is >> remember people didn't have any idea what a website was.
1:34:19
>> And so we had an editorial staff, we had a medical staff, we had a marketing team, and they envisioned I kept saying, "Why do we need a magazine on my computer screen?
1:34:29
Why why you're you're building this really great magazine >> but with a chat room and with some feedback?"
1:34:35
And they kept they all the all the all these sort of trigger words back then were interaction.
1:34:38
Uh and and I didn't understand I saw no value in any of it.
1:34:44
I kept saying I I I kept and we had 120 employees and we had a board of directors from from Northern California who were demanding we uh quote get big fast.
1:34:57
This is this is interesting. >> Get big fast.
1:34:59
>> This guy this I I came to our first board meeting.
1:35:01
I said, "Look, I I'm trying to decide if um we should figure out how to make money, how to make this profitable or or what we should be doing or how to, you know, >> did they tell you, don't worry about that. Don't worry about that."
1:35:13
>> Worse than that, this one guy goes, "If" He was manic as hell, and he goes, "If I thought you were so stupid, I never would have been on this board."
1:35:18
And he jumps up and he goes, "Here's how you make money at. com company."
1:35:22
And there was a giant whiteboard and he wrote in huge letters, "Get big fast." Yeah.
1:35:30
>> And they were demanding we burn through capital faster to try to get big fast.
1:35:36
So that became the weird it was the weirdest thing I ever seen in my life.
1:35:40
But the one thing I got right >> I kept saying it's going to be video.
1:35:44
Why else do we need this thing? It's going to be video.
1:35:46
But look look what we're doing right now. Right. >> Yeah.
1:35:49
>> And I just kept saying that and we put together a one night a week television show. >> Yeah.
1:35:54
>> That was really a high quality show.
1:35:54
We still have some of the tapes from it. And everybody came in.
1:35:57
Paul Rudd, uh, Tommy Lee, everybody came in on that one night a week show because it was the cool thing to do because there's this new idea.
1:36:06
This dot company creates a TV show and nobody could watch it. Do you know why?
1:36:13
>> Cuz you couldn't stream it >> because nobody had stream. Nobody had broadband. >> Yeah, >> broadband.
1:36:19
You needed broadband back then.
1:36:21
That's that's how far ahead of the technology we were. How were you guys?
1:36:26
It sounds like you weren't making a ton of money, but were you selling the show on a subscription?
1:36:29
Like what what did that >> was the was there any business model ads? >> No, just eyeballs.
1:36:35
So, so get big fast didn't mean revenue or profits. It meant eyeballs.
1:36:41
>> I eyeballs get big meant money number of people.
1:36:44
And they kept talking about how the curve, you know, how the asetic curve would develop around >> viewership and and engagement and this kind of stuff.
1:36:51
And we literally this was a company I mean it had lots of traction and engagement and stuff.
1:36:58
People were kind of intrigued by it.
1:36:58
So people were stopping by and looking at this thing.
1:37:01
I I not sure we did lots of interviews with celebrity.
1:37:04
It was sort of like >> E meets uh Teen B meets, you know, it was all these different things uh all together in one site.
1:37:12
And uh we literally were sitting in Goldman Sachs on I believe it was March 19th uh 20 20 2010. Wait, when was that? Sorry, 1989 or 2000.
1:37:28
The day the NASDAQ fell apart.
1:37:32
We were sitting the day we were sitting in Goldman Sachs and the woman across the table was contemplating giving us $30 million on a $110 million valuation for a company that had never made a penny. >> Wow.
1:37:46
>> And I I I just thought it was the dumbest thing I ever saw.
1:37:49
But I I I I knew it was tulips the whole way and I kept and one friend of mine finally goes, "Look, it's Amsterdam 1680. It's tulips.
1:37:57
You're going to grow Brussels sprouts or you going to grow tulips?
1:38:00
What are you going to do?"
1:38:00
I thought, "All right, I'm I'm going to grow tulips."
1:38:04
>> Well, it's I mean, it's interesting to think back and if and if if if it was structured as an investment that was actually in you and your name and likeness, it would have been a tremendous investment, but that wasn't a good dot story.
1:38:18
>> It It was why we got the money though.
1:38:20
Uh in fact, there's there's an Inc. article on my wall here.
1:38:22
I was going to actually pull down and wave in front of the camera, but it'd be almost impossible to do it.
1:38:26
uh were that they were sort of saying that's what they were, you know, that's kind of what they were thinking they were doing, but it was not it was not a clear thought, but they were looking for brands. >> Yeah.
1:38:38
>> And I don't think they really knew that that that was not a fully developed thought at that time. >> Yeah.
1:38:44
>> Um >> so what was the conclusion?
1:38:46
>> Like going to business school, I saw the entire the entire from from seed to dissolve.
1:38:51
I saw the entire business cycle in one year.
1:38:53
So, did you did you eventually take take over the site again yourself or what? >> Oh, Dr.
1:38:59
Coupe brought bought the site. Remember Dr. Coupe? You wouldn't. You're too young.
1:39:03
He was the attorney general and then he he had a website that actually did rather well for a minute.
1:39:09
>> Did he just redirect the website or was he still using drdt. com?
1:39:13
>> No, no, he was a redirect.
1:39:13
He absorbed everything >> and and um and he went bankrupt as everybody did. >> Yeah.
1:39:22
A and we got we were able to weasel it back.
1:39:25
I forget how we got it back, but we had to do some sleuththing and we finally got it back.
1:39:30
>> So yeah, what what what how did the shape of your business evolve then and like what uh like how do you think about packaging everything that you do now?
1:39:40
>> Um you know there there's I was listening to you guys talk and I was thinking boy I don't have any framework.
1:39:47
>> This is all very interesting to me but but I don't have a framework to sort of understand what I do.
1:39:50
My stuff is always an improvisation. >> Sure. >> Right.
1:39:54
I when I started radio in 1983, I had no designs on radio.
1:39:56
I I was leave me alone so I can practice medicine.
1:40:00
I'll come here in the evenings on Sunday and do community service.
1:40:02
That was my >> little notion in 1983 when I started doing radio.
1:40:08
>> Then there some television guys came along.
1:40:10
I'm like, how do you do a TV show?
1:40:11
I've never I don't even know what you're talking about.
1:40:13
Well, this was the same thing with the dot.
1:40:14
My my good friend comes to me and goes, we're going to do this.
1:40:18
And I thought I I don't see it.
1:40:20
I don't get it, but I think we might be able to do something with it. It' be interesting.
1:40:23
This was a hell of an education.
1:40:24
Um, and uh, and you're asking how I frame everything I do now.
1:40:29
Now, >> yeah, I was wondering how >> Well, it's just been interesting how many techn how many different technology trends from the to, you know, podcasting, but it all comes back to basically radio and TV. >> Yeah.
1:40:41
like like what over over the past uh you know more recent tech boom history have you been hit with the hey let's do uh let's do a Dr.
1:40:49
Drew >> or let's do an AI thing. Is this coming?
1:40:54
Is it rearing its head again?
1:40:55
>> It that has been that has been I've had conversations like that. >> Yeah, of course. Of course.
1:41:00
>> Uh exactly what to do with it? Nobody knows. Nobody, >> right?
1:41:02
Uh but it's part of the exploration.
1:41:05
Uh I'm doing streaming shows regularly.
1:41:07
You guys blasted them up there. It looked like hell.
1:41:09
Wait, you put it up there.
1:41:12
>> I'm going to talk to my web master.
1:41:15
>> I mean, it looks really good for conversion optimization.
1:41:16
It made me want to click.
1:41:18
No, I think you're I think your your person is doing a good job.
1:41:22
>> Not meant to be shown on other people's shows.
1:41:26
>> But um uh you know that's been interesting.
1:41:30
It it happened that all happened just because I got cancelled for daring to say people shouldn't panic about co >> Oh yeah.
1:41:36
>> And uh that caused me to just stop doing everything.
1:41:39
And I had somebody who said, "Hey, you should do a streaming show."
1:41:41
I was like, "What's that?"
1:41:42
Again, that's sort of my >> it's where I start every one of these projects. >> Yeah.
1:41:47
Yeah, you had a bad experience streaming the first time where you're like, if if I make the show, you're sure people are going to be able to watch it.
1:41:53
>> But no more confidence this time, but it works. >> I I knew it. I already knew that. I already knew.
1:41:58
I saw what was happening with videos.
1:41:59
I just kept we just kept saying we were so early.
1:42:01
We just we we could have been who knows what we could have been you god knows we could have been YouTube or something if we had sort of been the first to really advocate for this kind of platform.
1:42:11
>> But we were way early and nobody else was quite as much of a believer as I was.
1:42:15
And uh so the streaming thing has been very interesting and you just I'm in my own my kids' playroom doing this and it's the it's the same thing.
1:42:24
Everything here used to require me to go out to a satellite booth boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo booth at CNN.
1:42:28
>> Yeah >> and now I just do it from here.
1:42:29
So the efficiencies are fantastic.
1:42:31
And so I do television out of the studio.
1:42:34
I do podcasting out of the studio. I do streaming shows.
1:42:37
And it all started because I got cancelled and some my web master said the streaming is probably going to happen pretty soon. I said let's try that.
1:42:47
And uh I wanted to talk to all the pe other other physicians who had been cancelled.
1:42:53
>> One of them happens to be the director of the NIH right now.
1:42:54
And so I sense that >> that these people had something to say and the cancellation thing was some sort of bizarre aberration certainly in in science and medicine.
1:43:03
science and medicine. Had you >> have you gotten you know the the opportunities that you maybe lost due to the cancellation have you gotten invited back in the last >> or is it just a different set of opportunities
1:43:15
>> or is it yeah are you looking at totally different or do you not even want to go back to the to kind of the old >> these are great questions I I don't know that I want to go back but I probably would because I've taken the position that my opinions have never changed. I'm
1:43:26
I'm happy to express them on any platform anywhere.
1:43:30
Uh what has happened in the meantime is you know what I used to do say all the news outlets all of them all of a sudden the only people that would have me on was Fox. >> Yeah.
1:43:41
>> Uh now just last week CNN called so I thought okay good this is a good sign.
1:43:46
>> I couldn't make it but I would have had I been able to >> healing. Nature's healing. Yeah.
1:43:49
Um uh we've we we've been really obsessed with this idea that uh sort of a barbell is emerging in modern media where all the value either acrru to the platforms like YouTube, Twitch, Instagram or the individuals, the Joe Rogan, the Andrew Huberman, the Cruz and that it's very hard to actually build anything in the middle.
1:44:14
Um would you agree with that?
1:44:16
Would you is this something that you've kind of experienced?
1:44:18
Uh it it feels like something that um >> no I the I I absolutely concur with the on the talent side that because it used to be I would require to do what we're doing right now.
1:44:31
There'd be an executive producer.
1:44:33
There'd be a segment producer.
1:44:35
There would be a director in the studio in the satellite booth.
1:44:37
There'd be somebody directing in the other end at the satellite booth.
1:44:40
There would be >> and you got the union the unions involved with. >> There'd be unions. There'd be sales forces.
1:44:45
There'd be executive structures. Now it's me. Yeah. That's it.
1:44:49
>> So, it's so much more efficient and it drives that world crazy. >> Yeah.
1:44:54
>> So, when Colbear gets gets fired for losing $40 million a year, I just looked at that and I go, "Well, of course, >> that's going to happen to all of them.
1:45:02
This is just not a model."
1:45:03
>> And our reaction at that point was he could just go set up his own home studio and probably have a fantastic business just with his existing fan base and none of the none of the overhead. >> 100%.
1:45:14
But they are they are you got to know how that world thinks. They're very spoiled.
1:45:19
They're very spoiled and they're used to gigantic infrastructure and dozens of writers and this is this the world we're living in right as we have this interview >> to them looks sort of cheap and dumb and people aren't talented do that.
1:45:32
The real people people back back us with infrastructure and money that that just not so this the other side of the barbell which I'm wondering how you see it.
1:45:42
I just see it as largely nonviable.
1:45:45
So much of it has got to shrink dramatically and it's resisting. >> Yeah.
1:45:48
>> It's resisting like crazy. >> Yeah.
1:45:50
I mean I I would almost put the the traditional media corporations like in the center.
1:45:54
When I think of the far big mega side of the barbell, I think of the platforms Spotify, Facebook, Meta, YouTube, Twitch, LinkedIn, the networks, and they actually acrue a ton of the value.
1:46:08
And and and it is extremely hard to start one of those companies.
1:46:12
If you do, you're not talent at all.
1:46:13
In fact, you're probably an engineer and you probably at this point have the backing of like a state government because that's the only way Tik Tok got going was, you know, so much energy and capital flowing in to actually, you know, break through.
1:46:27
The ship has sailed on starting like new platforms for the most part in my opinion.
1:46:33
>> I think that's probably right.
1:46:33
And and there and they don't need to buy talent. >> No, not at all.
1:46:37
It just comes to them naturally and they give 50% of the revenue or whatever they're >> Yeah.
1:46:41
We would rather we would rather just have you jump on our show from your studio. Yep.
1:46:46
>> And you benefit because people are going to trickle over to you and and uh ads.
1:46:53
We just get to focus on making content and not not focused on talent.
1:46:58
>> But the interesting thing is you you have to wonder is there are we somewhere in a business cycle that's going to lead to some consolidation >> and when the talent consolidates are they going to start negotiating with the platforms?
1:47:09
Is there going to be some sort of >> Yeah.
1:47:12
>> I mean, that would be a natural business cycle, right? >> Yeah.
1:47:14
What was that new uh left-wing Substack uh publication that just announced?
1:47:19
Uh they said they're libbing out or something. Remember this? >> Yeah.
1:47:22
What are the >> Anyway, there's like a collection the argument.
1:47:25
Uh so there's there's a new a new publication that's launching that's aggregating a number of writers who are sort of on the left.
1:47:32
And we were kind of debating will they have leverage over different platforms because they're all together or does it actually make more sense for Matt Eiglacius and Derek Thompson to just have their own substacks and go direct and then you know and then on the far other side is the is the platform and there's really no one in between.
1:47:51
But we're still early in the in this development of the the argument.
1:47:55
>> Well there there's something very strange.
1:47:57
It's there's a weird uh confluence of worlds right now. Yeah.
1:47:59
My son just texted me and he's >> he's been trying to get to you guys. I >> really know this.
1:48:08
>> Does he want to Does he wanna >> Does he want to hop on? We'll send the link. >> Yeah.
1:48:11
Yeah, we'll send you join right after you. >> Listening.
1:48:13
Uh maybe call my phone and I'll put you up to the uh microphone here. >> But he's Let's do it.
1:48:20
>> He's consolidating the ad department, you know, the the management, the the lawyering, the ad services, the distribution.
1:48:27
He's trying to consolidate that onto a tiny little team. Sure.
1:48:31
>> Because these things aren't nec all this stuff is not needed anymore. Yeah.
1:48:34
>> You need you need an ad agency. >> Yeah. This is amazing.
1:48:36
The the chat is going wild.
1:48:38
Everyone's really happy with this.
1:48:40
They're calling uh they're calling your son the prodigal son. Question.
1:48:45
>> Well, he he I'm going to see if I get him to call me.
1:48:46
He said he emailed he his his partner named Jake emailed one of you guys. >> Okay. Okay. We'll have to follow up.
1:48:52
But uh >> but they're having huge success and he's the one that he's the one that started talking about AI.
1:48:58
He's he's in the middle of all of this.
1:49:00
The tech influencers, the the Google store, the Tik Tok store, all everything. >> Yeah.
1:49:06
>> But all of that is more efficient, more efficient, more efficient. Yep. Right.
1:49:08
I mean, and the and what you have is these the the talent agencies and the ad agencies and the managerial services and the lawyers holding on.
1:49:16
They're like they're like going into the foxholes as opposed to adjusting and adapting and changing what what it is they do.
1:49:23
They are just insisting that things continue to be done the way that they've always been done.
1:49:30
And it's it's it's I guess a classic business mistake, right? >> Yeah. >> Totally. >> Yeah.
1:49:35
Um >> I have one I have one uh one one health one health question for you.
1:49:42
>> What are the uh uh John John and I are starting a what we hope to be multiple decades run of of uh daily live streaming.
1:49:52
uh what would you have done when when you were earlier in your career health-wise to um to better sell you know you you seem to be doing incredibly well now.
1:50:02
So what are what are the key things to look out for healthwise to make sure you can do this for decades.
1:50:10
>> Um be hypomomanic >> uh helps which which a lot of successful business people are. >> Yes.
1:50:18
>> You're going it's you know I I hear many of the podcasts you're going to suffer.
1:50:22
You're going to work hard.
1:50:22
you're going to lose sleep.
1:50:23
I wish id paid more attention to sleep, but if I had, I couldn't have done most of what I did.
1:50:30
>> I'm trying to pay attention to sleep now.
1:50:32
>> And um you know, you've heard it all before.
1:50:34
It's it's not this is not new. Trust your instincts. Uh explore.
1:50:36
Don't be afraid to fall down.
1:50:38
I for me the the the big as I look back on all the things I did, it it just the willingness to improvise and to go into dangerous situations.
1:50:48
I mean, a lot of Oh, he's calling now. >> Let's get him on. We got the sun on.
1:50:53
>> I don't know if they can hear.
1:50:53
He can I'll have to translate from you.
1:50:56
>> Uh, put on speaker phone.
1:50:58
>> Hey, how's it going, guys? >> How you doing? What's happening? >> Good son, obviously.
1:51:01
But we um, my business partner and I actually emailed you a couple weeks back. >> Okay. >> We rep Roberto Nixon. >> Oh, no way. I love that's amazing. Okay.
1:51:11
Yeah, we got to get in touch.
1:51:12
>> My dad was on the air with Fantastic.
1:51:14
I'm flying back from Seattle. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. I do.
1:51:17
So, we did have a little exchange. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:51:19
Let's follow >> you guys.
1:51:20
He's going to keep talking. Okay.
1:51:21
He can't I'll tell him what you said. He can't hear you.
1:51:24
>> You're talking, Douglas.
1:51:26
>> I was going to say that I So Rob and Jake are going to an Oasis concert next week in Pasadena.
1:51:30
And I was going to ask you if you could meet Rob in Pasadena.
1:51:36
>> His sister also his her kids are going to Paulie.
1:51:40
>> And Doug went to Paul, too.
1:51:40
Doug went to Poly August.
1:51:43
>> Like you said at the beginning of the show, only famous people go to Poly Technic School. >> That's fantastic. >> Um, no. Hi.
1:51:50
I just wanted to say hi and uh show you that we're not like uh the rest of those guys that probably email you randomly asking for things and wanting to to build a relationship.
1:51:59
It's it's very funny that this all happened in a strange way.
1:52:02
So >> yeah, this is actually have to take a call for this creator named Roth >> who's a Gen AI creator because he's in Dubai and I you know just trying to get on the >> You got to get on with Dubai.
1:52:13
We know we know how that goes. >> All right, get going.
1:52:16
And I I call these guys because they butchered my my uh >> my and I had to get them.
1:52:22
He John is that which one's John? >> I'm John.
1:52:27
>> John John was actually at drd.
1:52:27
com when he was like 10 years old. >> Yeah. For a year. >> Yeah.
1:52:33
I was in the very cold data center. Yeah. Okay. >> Racking servers. >> That's spectacular.
1:52:38
So there's there's a long history on on on all fronts. >> Andy went to Poland.
1:52:42
So okay, we'll talk later. >> Yes.
1:52:44
And he went to >> Amazing. Okay. Yeah. Um, okay.
1:52:46
I I I have one more question on the health for you. For you. >> Okay. Sorry, Doug. >> Later, Douglas. >> Later.
1:52:54
Uh, for you, uh, last week we had Mark Cuban on the show.
1:52:57
He said that, uh, drinking raw milk is extremely dangerous and should never be done >> yet.
1:53:02
I drank I I'll go on the record.
1:53:02
I drank a liter of raw milk every day for two years straight. >> You were fine. >> Yeah. That was so anelain.
1:53:15
He didn't he didn't give any underlying rationale.
1:53:17
>> Yeah, I doubt he knows why.
1:53:18
>> He was just saying that that the LLMs might convince you to drink raw milk and that might lead to some sort of doom scenario.
1:53:27
>> You can get brucyosis, you probably get tulia, you can get listiosis and we can treat that with antibiotics, no problem.
1:53:35
>> Uh but they can make you very sick and they're very rare. Yeah.
1:53:38
Uh I I wouldn't do it but I don't the fact that pe I look >> there's something terrible going on. Yeah.
1:53:47
Where people are so fearful of being the biological agents that we are. >> Yeah.
1:53:53
>> And the reality that we are going to die that they are afraid to live. >> Yeah.
1:54:00
>> Living well is the goal. >> Not living forever.
1:54:03
Not living perfectly free of illness. It's living a good life. And we are off of that.
1:54:09
I can't >> We are so far off of that. It is disgusting.
1:54:14
And for a non-f physician to have an opinion about milk that contains pathogenic organisms that he's never heard of or learned to pronounce yesterday is disturbing to me.
1:54:23
It's the same thing when people went after hydroxychloricquin the day they learned how to say that word.
1:54:29
The medicine I've been prescribing for decades.
1:54:31
So it's all we are so out of whack with this going to live forever fear of death illness infection. Oh Yes.
1:54:40
We are we we my generation of physicians we walked into illnesses that had 100% fatality. AIDS had 100% fatality.
1:54:48
And we did not know what we were dealing with.
1:54:54
And we didn't cower in the corner. We marched in.
1:54:56
It's the right thing to do >> that.
1:54:59
I don't know what's happened.
1:54:59
I I can't understand this at all. But um here we are.
1:55:03
We need to focus on living well, living a good life. Period.
1:55:07
>> Did you uh did you >> stuff comes what may?
1:55:10
>> Did you predict the decline of alcohol consumption? >> It's I did not.
1:55:14
It seemed off a cliff, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. I did.
1:55:18
That's still surprising to me, but it fits with the lack of dating and the lack of having sex and the lack of socializing.
1:55:23
It it it that was that was a prime social lubricant for decades. I'm glad to see it. It's a good thing.
1:55:30
You know, the people are starting to understand it's a poison and it's not good for any tissue in our body ever.
1:55:37
>> But it makes me all so I mean >> what happens when did we become such When did that happen?
1:55:48
>> That's my question these days. When did that happen? >> I don't know.
1:55:50
I mean I' I've >> You can't Have you ever said something like that on CNN?
1:55:53
This is why you got to stay off the networks.
1:55:55
You just got to do your own show.
1:55:57
I I guess I'm I'm just I've been through so much lately.
1:56:00
I've just lost all uh I I'm a huge advocate for freedom of speech and freedom of many sort I'm not happy about this flag burning thing.
1:56:11
We freedom freedom freedom is what I'm all about now speaking my mind.
1:56:16
>> I will pitch you one possible explanation.
1:56:17
Um I I think that the the fear of very you know consequential but low probability events um like the raw milk or the risk from raw milk or the risk from COVID uh is tied to a lack of belief in immortality uh and not in the sense of of living forever like biological immortality like >> science will cure this and let you live forever.
1:56:42
That's just one way to think about immortality.
1:56:44
You can also think about immortality in your legacy.
1:56:46
If you are written about and you have lived a great life, you will be remembered and immortalized.
1:56:51
You can also think about it through your children.
1:56:53
Um, and also through the the afterlife.
1:56:56
If you're spiritual or religious, you could think that you're going to heaven.
1:56:59
And if you don't believe in any of those modes of of of immortality, you don't believe that you're going to have kids or or do your life's work and be remembered in the afterlife or go to heaven or or you don't believe that science will be able to fix you if you do wind up getting sick from raw milk.
1:57:14
Um then even a small chance has the has an incredible incredible penalty and so you you discount it very very high.
1:57:22
Uh so >> I I agree with you >> uh with a couple of caveats. I I do agree with you. >> Yeah.
1:57:31
>> Um embedded in that observation is a general lack of meaning making is that if the meaning is I'm trying to ascend to a after what whatever the meaning is of my living that meaning should be deeply meaningful to me and purposeful.
1:57:48
It doesn't it does not have to include an afterlife.
1:57:50
It can also include just creating a good life for my children.
1:57:53
That's why I'm here to do that. That kind of thing.
1:57:55
But we people are here for their narcissistic needs and that's when things become >> fragile. >> Yes.
1:58:03
>> Because we we are not the beginning and the end of everything. We just are not.
1:58:07
And if we think we're all there is is what's happening to me. >> Yeah. >> Man.
1:58:13
And then we have people whipping the frenzies and the fear and they're learning to control us with that and that that is disgusting. >> Yeah.
1:58:20
What about um have you been tracking uh AI psychosis at all? Any any thoughts? >> I I hear about it.
1:58:28
I I don't I don't believe it.
1:58:30
I'll tell I'll I'll take I'll make a bet that that it's over way overblown.
1:58:34
It was somebody who's already psychotic and you know, whatever.
1:58:35
Um there not that the AI relationships are necessarily going to be good. I I I worry about that.
1:58:43
But this psychotic episode, I don't know.
1:58:45
I don't know if you remember back in the 90s there were news stories every night. >> I was born sir. >> Okay.
1:58:52
Do you have to rub that in? Do you have to say? You just said no. I don't remember. >> No, no, no.
1:58:57
Late later 90s I got into the action.
1:59:00
But uh >> but uh but there was news reports like every night like oh these parties where all the parents throw their keys in a bowl and they just they just grab a set of keys and that's who they go home with that night. >> Oh sure. the press, the fake.
1:59:12
I don't think people were sensitive to fake news.
1:59:16
We have to be very sensitive to reporting these days.
1:59:18
So much of what's being reported is fake.
1:59:21
And it's just to catch your eyes.
1:59:23
It's just to get your attention.
1:59:24
They they the person that wrote that article was a 23-year-old segment producer somewhere who doesn't do any research of of any meaning.
1:59:31
It it just becomes something that they catch on the line.
1:59:35
They saw other people report it, they report it. It It's ridiculous. >> Yeah.
1:59:40
I mean the the my my read on it is is it seems obvious now that if a large number of people take Iwasa, some of them are going to have some type of psychotic break of sorts and and maybe they were prone to to or or had some some underlying issue that that enabled that.
2:00:04
But the issue with >> you're right.
2:00:07
they already had a psychotic illness and they just happened to break when they're working with AI.
2:00:11
But you're you're raising you're you're making a very smart observation that the that AI world is populated by people that micro dose on acid and do Iaska which I I tell you it categorically causes severe psychiatric problems.
2:00:23
I've seen it my entire career.
2:00:26
Scares the hell out of me.
2:00:28
They should not be doing that.
2:00:30
>> If you're listen Yeah.
2:00:30
If you're listening live from Burning Man, just listen to Dr. Drew.
2:00:34
Did you ever go to Burning Man, by the way?
2:00:36
Doesn't seem >> No, we got friends keep trying to get us to go.
2:00:39
It's not It's not my jam. Exactly.
2:00:42
>> It's not my jam either.
2:00:43
>> Well, you could go there and try to try to, you know, talk people out of it.
2:00:47
>> How about we stick to the Bud Light, buddy?
2:00:48
>> Yeah, let's stick to crushing beers.
2:00:51
>> Have a couple glasses of wine.
2:00:53
>> Anyway, this has been fantastic. Thank you for coming on. Crafting the record. >> Come back on anytime. >> We appreciate this.
2:00:57
We'd love to have you back. >> You guys are great.
2:00:59
I I learned something just listening to you guys.
2:01:02
this talking about the playing the uh baseball cards that fascinating.
2:01:04
You guys have a great uh you're obviously extremely well trained in in your in your respective fields and it's very interesting to hear you talk about these various markets and opportunities and things and I leave with one caveat.
2:01:18
>> Please, >> if you don't call my son, he's going to kill me.
2:01:19
So, >> we will definitely >> we're will go to this concert with him. >> We will. We will. >> Exactly. And it's in Pasadena.
2:01:24
If you come back, >> I live in Pasadena now. >> You live there now? >> I do. I live over Rose Bowl.
2:01:28
Roseville is literally walking distance for me. >> So do I. >> Amazing.
2:01:33
Okay, we should just become my address, but I'll swing by for >> Well, we live a 30 rack of Bud Light. >> We live by Annale. >> Oh, okay.
2:01:43
Yeah, I'm right over there. >> Okay. So, >> just up. >> No excuse.
2:01:48
>> I don't want to get too I don't want to get too too precise show up with people at my front door.
2:01:51
Anyway, thank you so much for hopping on. This is fantastic. Great. >> We will talk. Bye.
2:01:55
Uh, >> that's why we leave a 30-minute gap in the middle of the show.
2:02:00
We got to start doing that.
2:02:03
>> Uh, anyway, we are shifting gears.
2:02:03
We're going into the world of Palunteer.
2:02:06
We have Colin Anderson coming into the studio.
2:02:10
He's in the reream waiting room, but we're bringing him in now to talk about um running finance at Palunteer. He was there for years.
2:02:18
I actually ran into him on Saturday.
2:02:20
Got a chance to catch up with him and he had some fantastic stories.
2:02:24
Hopefully, he can share most of them here.
2:02:25
Um, and we're going to talk about uh different force multipliers for uh finance teams and growing businesses like Palunteer.
2:02:32
I mean, who what else do you want?
2:02:34
So, we will welcome Colin to the studio. How you doing? >> Hey, I'm good. Thanks for having me.
2:02:41
>> Good to see you again. It's been too long.
2:02:43
It's been almost 48 hours.
2:02:45
>> I was going to say pretty pretty short, but uh good to good to be here with uh I guess more audience this time. >> Yeah, for sure.
2:02:50
Um uh where should we kick it off?
2:02:53
Could you give us a little bit of uh just history for the for the listener on your career, your path uh particularly like the road into Palunteer?
2:03:02
I think that that's an interesting story.
2:03:04
You were touching on some of the some of the some of the stories there and then we can kind of take this wherever you wherever you'd like. >> Totally. Let's do it.
2:03:10
Well, maybe just to situate for those I'm I'm meeting for the first time, uh Colin Anderson, uh co-founder here at Friends and Family Capital, venture firm we started and uh before that was the the CFO at Palunteer for very long time, led finance there for eight years. So, what does that mean?
2:03:25
Uh intersection of supporting uh great businesses through finance uh for two decades and a lot of scar tissue is the other thing that means and how do you share that with people?
2:03:34
um getting into uh getting into Palunteer that was um that was really saying hey who's working on a really hard problem that matters >> and if you look at the time you had you know we were still post 911 yeah uh we were still trying to overcome the false trade-off between uh national security and being able to defend ourselves >> and also uh privacy and civil liberties. Yeah.
2:03:58
>> And people used to think that that was an impossible trade-off and that seemed like a worthy challenge.
2:04:02
we only have so many so many hours in the day.
2:04:03
We should work on something that matters.
2:04:05
And uh talent density was there and uh I was just really attracted to that.
2:04:09
And it helped having spent time deep in the bowels of an investment bank >> where you realize that humans are a very expensive piece of middleware and what if you could see all the data you're supposed to see nothing that you're not you can probably do a lot of great things there. >> Yeah.
2:04:21
How did you first hear about Palunteer?
2:04:23
What was your first day on the job like?
2:04:25
Who was around the table?
2:04:27
I mean at this point people know everyone from Karb to Peter to Sham Sankar like Gary Tan's involved at some point like people people know who's around the table but what was your early uh like first days in the job like >> totally well uh was introduced to the company uh actually through through Joe
2:04:45
Lansdale he he brought me in and I was an industrial engineer by training which means to my uh English major friends I'm an engineer but to my engineering friends I'm an English major So got pretty deep >> got pretty deep into the process uh at Palantry in the early days. There were
2:05:01
There were probably 20 30 people. >> Yeah.
2:05:04
>> At the time >> and uh Joe said, "Hey, look, I actually think we're not ready for you.
2:05:07
You want to go work with uh Peter Teal and myself up at Clarium Capital." Sure.
2:05:10
So privileged to to work there, learn a lot, and uh fast forward, the company had grown to the mighty number of I don't know, just over a hundred. Yeah.
2:05:19
>> And Peter's like, "Hey, I think I think they might need some some help here." Great.
2:05:23
And um you know, it's really the mission that drives you.
2:05:25
I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do.
2:05:27
Maybe I'll sell software.
2:05:28
Maybe I'll talk to politicians.
2:05:30
Maybe I'll I'll help with this finance thing.
2:05:32
And I don't think I was very good at the first two, but the last one stuck.
2:05:35
So, uh just just keep doubling down where it works. >> Yeah.
2:05:38
What was the what was like the day-to-day role like?
2:05:40
Is it everything from uh just like financial control to putting together projections, thinking about burn rate?
2:05:50
I imagine that the company wasn't wildly profitable in the early days.
2:05:54
It was it's known for being one of those like slower compounders and now is like one of the biggest companies in the world, but uh it took a long time to get there.
2:06:03
What was that like at the early stage?
2:06:06
>> Well, Palanteer had its time in the desert, right?
2:06:08
where it's the roughly four years of pre-revenue uh large expense, you know, wouldn't exist without for uh you know, basically Peter Teal and uh the co-founders just pushing through and and bringing capital to bear.
2:06:21
So, what does that look like?
2:06:23
And we we see this all the time at at companies now in our portfolio where you spend all this time in the desert >> building things and then suddenly you realize, oh wow, we actually have a product here and now we have a real business. What do we do?
2:06:33
and and finances, you know, at Palanteer and today something you you wish you had yesterday once you realize you need it.
2:06:40
And uh >> so it's kind of one of these just fire hoses that you you keep your head down and build.
2:06:45
>> What what was the reaction like from venture capitalists around that time?
2:06:49
Because there's there's there's like the this is controversial to be working with the government.
2:06:53
At the same time, it's like it is an enterprise software company.
2:06:56
It should be pretty easy to underwrite if you're an enterprise software venture capitalist, I would imagine. Hopefully.
2:07:00
Um, but then at the same time, like you're out of the you're out in the desert.
2:07:03
And so, um, there's there's a little bit of like, you know, is the company mature enough to underwrite this particular investment?
2:07:10
It's not this like hot no-brainer. It's kind of secretive.
2:07:12
It's cool, but it's like behind the scenes.
2:07:13
So, what what was the what was the temperature in Silicon Valley around defense tech around that time? >> Yeah.
2:07:22
Well, first off, defense tech as a term didn't even exist.
2:07:26
>> So, we got it way back.
2:07:26
I I met the company in 2007. Yeah. and uh joined in 2009.
2:07:31
>> Uh and we were very shy because we, you know, no one knew what quite what to think of us.
2:07:35
We were kind of in a you know, a Marvel team up of a bunch of uh superheroes that had weird peaks but also weird valleys and uh just kept our heads down and built the um really in the earliest days, no one no one in the valley, you know, but for a small group understood what we were, right?
2:07:50
And we made every mistake from what they wanted to to invest in, right?
2:07:55
At the time, this was Facebook was cool.
2:07:57
So, you should be doing consumer, not enterprise.
2:08:00
And if you were going to do enterprise, you should sell to big corporate.
2:08:03
But it's like, well, we're going to actually sell to the government. >> Yeah.
2:08:05
>> And well, if you're going to sell to the government, you should go hire a bunch of experienced operators and generals.
2:08:09
We're like, we're going to go hire a bunch of 20-year-old kids.
2:08:10
Uh, so like every single on the decision tree was like, we were wrong.
2:08:15
And so, that that, you know, sort of pushed us out.
2:08:17
Uh, and it really took building a great product and and showing value to customers to uh to actually prove to to people that it worked.
2:08:25
It's been great to see what they've been able to do.
2:08:27
>> As an investor now, how do you try to underwrite uh teams that are still wandering in the desert?
2:08:32
Because there's great examples and survivorship bias that happens when you have a a a team like Palanteer that's wandering in the desert and then you find this, you know, you you uh find something that works and you can really scale out of it.
2:08:46
But then I I've, you know, I've ended up I've invested in teams that stumble into the desert and never make it out, right?
2:08:52
So, it's not exactly certainly not there's no guarantee that you're going to find uh you know some palm trees and water. >> Yeah.
2:09:01
You find a skeleton drinking out of the whiskey bottle a decade later.
2:09:06
>> Not not everyone makes it out of the desert.
2:09:07
Uh where we we spend a lot of our time in the earlier stages here at Friends and Family Capital and we put a lot of our dollars once it's clear it's working right.
2:09:15
So tech is one of those great businesses where when it works you can run and you can win a whole lot longer.
2:09:21
Um, so we're we're happy to get involved and you know, you know, it's kind of the forward deployed engineering model.
2:09:26
We'll we'll forward deploy. We'll help you.
2:09:28
We're not going to charge you.
2:09:30
Maybe we'll put 50 100k small check in.
2:09:33
And uh, but we're really looking for those operational unlocks.
2:09:34
When does it look like Palunteer? Uh, right. We were there. I joined.
2:09:39
We got about 5 million in revenue. Right.
2:09:40
So you you sort of 5 million revenue to 20 billion valuation.
2:09:43
You see full stack what good looks like.
2:09:46
And so you're you're watching for those inflections. What are some of those?
2:09:49
Like getting a seven figure software contract is really hard.
2:09:52
So if you see that, you should get pretty excited.
2:09:54
Uh being in an enterprise and going from uh you know, let's say a million a year to three or five million a year, like a a multiple of the initial land, that's pretty hard. We get pretty excited.
2:10:04
And I think the other thing is just what's the mission? What's the purpose?
2:10:07
Why are people joining this company?
2:10:09
Why is the you know many people say why is the 20th person?
2:10:13
Why is the hundth person?
2:10:13
I say, 'Wh is the skeptical, you know, engineer when you're a thousand people going to join you?
2:10:18
Uh, fast forward, why, you know, five years post IPO, why is the skeptical public market investor going to join you?
2:10:24
It's got to be, you got to be doing something that's that's worthwhile to dedicate your life to.
2:10:26
Um, so find a big mission. >> Yeah.
2:10:30
How do you think about the relationship with the government?
2:10:32
I keep I I I don't know if this is true, but I I I I seem to remember that Inutel made an equity investment.
2:10:40
an equity investment. this the this is the venture arm of the CIA very early on and so you had this situation where Palanteer's like customer is the government and but the government is also on the cap table and we're seeing that today with Intel that there's now
2:10:54
the government's taking an equity position and it feels like this has never happened before but then when I flash back I'm like wait actually this this isn't the rarest thing um there's a world where the capabilities that are brought to bear by Palanteer exist within the US government and yet they
2:11:09
don't like what uh like how does that uh how does that how should like the American taxpayer think about the interaction between like public uh like uh private companies and the government like when should the government be willing to invest when should the government be buying a capability it's
2:11:28
always seemed like palunteer the the actual technology was something that could not be brought to bear with inside the government even though the government had a very clear set of requirements in front of itself it needed to be going it needed to built in Silicon Valley. Yeah, I mean enter
2:11:40
Silicon Valley. Yeah, I mean enter software is really difficult and some people are you know hardware is difficult too but building worldclass software to handle complex things is is tough and often can be built better in the valley than you know at the coalace and I think pounder is a good example of that but we've got uh you know we've got uh many examples but I I would push back
2:12:02
and say you can't build great software or great business in an ivory tower and I think one of the great things about Palunteer and you've seen and we've got a company paragan technology ies they're they're really breaking down the the the barrier of saying we're going to go build it in the you know an ivory tower and then we'll we'll sell it and people will we'll just use it. It's like no uh
2:12:19
will we'll just use it. It's like no uh if you think of a spectrum of product and services right everyone always put palunteer in the services bucket for you know the reasons we were misunderstood um really what you're doing is you want to capture the perfect value delivery of
2:12:34
services right you're solving one thing for one person that 100% solves their their problem but you want to do it as a product but the the product roadmap the traditional playbook says create distance from your customers not create proximity so Palunteer was able to this is that forward or deployed engineering model you hear a lot about. It's like
2:12:50
It's like you need the beauty happens when you get worldclass software talent that's willing to go deep into the the belly of the beast at the coalace. You're going down range.
2:13:01
You're sitting in an air gap network with a tie on when you're a sil and like and that's where you you actually see what's the core problem.
2:13:07
Um so we we really I think Palantry did that in spades.
2:13:11
I look for that every day at uh friends and family.
2:13:12
what companies shouldn't be using the forward deployed model because anytime something becomes a meme then everybody starts applying it.
2:13:21
It it sounds it sounds like it makes sense.
2:13:24
This is the whole like you know Uber Uber for dogs kind of meme.
2:13:29
People were like we're Uber for this and it's like wait there's actually unique things that in Uber's sort of supply demand >> consumer package goods.
2:13:36
I want Andrew Huberman to come pour this yerba mate into my mouth.
2:13:40
for deployed >> for for deployed caffeine salesman. >> Uh yeah. Well, uh it's funny. Yes, you should run.
2:13:48
Anytime you hear someone pitch themselves as I'm the X for Y, like just run.
2:13:53
>> Um >> the the FTE model, it's great in certain markets. It's terrible in others.
2:14:00
>> The only reason Palanteer could pursue anything with deploying is is you've got to be solving a hard enough problem, right?
2:14:07
So you think of a world-class engineer plus their equity dilution.
2:14:09
I mean this is an expensive check.
2:14:11
So you really have to be a capital allocator uh as as a founder to want to pursue this model.
2:14:17
So if you're selling things uh small and medium business where your average contract land is 20K 100k or less, you shouldn't you shouldn't look at this.
2:14:26
Uh unless you're saying let's get out there that's R&D.
2:14:27
Let's productize it and push it out.
2:14:29
Um when you start to get up into those seven figure plus contracts that can support it.
2:14:34
Um, if you're doing eight or nine figure, it definitely can support it.
2:14:38
Um, but then even then you get people think they're doing it.
2:14:40
Uh, so I love these conversations.
2:14:42
I get probably one inbound, two inbounds every week of like, hey, how'd you do to plate engineering in the early days? >> Yeah.
2:14:48
>> And you can understand if someone's in a position to build it by the questions they ask around it.
2:14:54
So you'll get these uh like figuring out the footwork.
2:14:57
What's the what's the pre-sales?
2:14:57
What's the who who does it pre-sales or post sales?
2:15:01
Is it customer success or is it sales AES?
2:15:04
>> And like if you're looking at the the FD model through that lens, you you've lost the plot, right?
2:15:09
It's really like let's start with first principles.
2:15:12
>> Uh how are you thinking about focusing the firm on stage or or theme or sector?
2:15:18
Do you have any kind of guard rails?
2:15:19
>> Well, they already have a round named after them.
2:15:24
Well, it's funny on the the round, so friends and family round, it's usually the early days when it's like a deeply consultative relationship and people who have your best interest at heart and want to will, you know, do it >> and I don't know, but when we got to the later stages of of building talent, you're here, right?
2:15:38
It was there through the series K.
2:15:39
The nature of the relationship changes with your investors around the table.
2:15:42
around the table. So uh the ethos here in the name is how do you extend Jord to your point how do you extend that friends and family mentality and really partner and and deliver and and sort of uh live live your values so to speak like don't take board seats be deeply
2:15:56
consultative um forward deploy your finance people if they need help all those sort of things um >> do do a lot of Genai companies need help with the finance function we've heard uh we we had a we had a we had a video go viral because we had an investor on the show who made an off-hand comment about account. She said accounting rules aside
2:16:13
account. She said accounting rules aside and a lot of people picked that up on X and we're we're we're dunking >> accounting rules in fact do matter >> but it was a part of a larger conversation and uh but but uh yeah I'm curious like you know what what you're seeing out there in terms of people
2:16:29
getting maybe a little too liberal in terms of like what's what's ARR what's not ARR all that good stuff >> like one of the core functions of finance there's many it's hygiene right it's hygiene it's legibility ility and if you lose that then you're you're building your house on sand. So there's
2:16:45
So there's a very important part of the world for for accounting for uh for getting those entries right.
2:16:52
Now you can disagree on the exact accounting treatment.
2:16:54
You can do your uh you know your proforma here's your gap to non-GAAP reconciliations.
2:17:00
Every company has their own version of how they run the business.
2:17:01
But it's helpful to have some standard way of looking at it.
2:17:05
So I think you you got to get it right.
2:17:07
But uh really with finance, it's what's the past, what's the present, what's the future, and you've got to do all three.
2:17:12
If you're running your business just on the accounting, you're going to have some trouble.
2:17:17
If you're just looking forward, but you can't pay your bills on time, or you know, a pounder, the the cell phones in the Nordics went out cuz we, you know, the credit card bill that we paid didn't apply.
2:17:26
Like, you got to really hold that as a first class priority.
2:17:27
And then on the the future, like there was times where it's like, hey, look, Sham, who I know you've been on your your your program, the CTO at Palunteer, it's like, look, we're going to hit our numbers this year and we're going to hit our numbers next year, but we got to do more pilots or we might have problem three or four years out and here's the data why.
2:17:44
Um, so you finance has to do all of them.
2:17:46
So it can't just be world class accounting.
2:17:48
It's got to be world class everything.
2:17:50
lessons from Palunteer's IPO that you think uh now that the I the IPO window feels extremely open uh God willing it'll stay open forever.
2:18:02
Uh but uh uh any any lessons from from the Palunteer IPO or that you could that you would uh advise a founder that's exploring uh you know opportunities in the public markets today. >> Totally.
2:18:16
Well uh first off uh so I I was not the CFO taking it public.
2:18:19
my my dear friend who I pulled into the finance team, Dave Glazer, he's he's the CFO and and took it through there and and a lot of the team that joined and worked with us back in the day is still running the company, which which is refreshing.
2:18:31
>> I think that's, you know, as as you're getting ready for the public markets, I think you really need to be able to articulate like why you have a strong core business model.
2:18:39
Uh you have to back it up with data and you have to have a narrative that says here's why it's going to keep going for a while.
2:18:44
And we we have a bunch of companies, you know, whether it's friends or it's in our portfolio that are at the scale where they could they could go public.
2:18:51
And I think you're seeing a lot of people start to weigh uh, you know, is the window open, should I run through it.
2:18:55
I think there's still some question marks depending who it is.
2:18:58
But if you're, you know, you're operating at scale, you've got accelerating revenue growth, expanding free cash flow margins, and a good narrative, I think we're going to see a lot more of that, which is exciting.
2:19:08
>> But if you can't articulate your core business model, it's I I think the window's not open yet.
2:19:12
Um, so you got to keep building >> and that's probably healthy. >> And that's healthy. >> Yeah.
2:19:18
How how are you thinking about like opportunity in defense tech broadly right now?
2:19:22
Um there's the the you know there's the meme of like the anderol for ax is anderol you know palenteers like this compounder that's going to take a lot of market share and uh the ship has certainly sailed on a few of like the really big companies but at the same time like there's a boom and people are starting to you know start companies in the space because there's more appetite from investors and it's more um more just accepted to hire people.
2:19:44
Um what's your temperature check right now? >> Yeah.
2:19:50
Well, so been honored to be a part of uh you know some of the great names of the people now called defense tech.
2:19:56
So Palunteer we've been investors in SpaceX since 10 billion and since around four billion know you know built Paler those guys.
2:20:03
So love that the whole ecosystem is starting to develop.
2:20:05
Uh back in the day there was there was no defense tech.
2:20:09
I think uh what does the world need?
2:20:11
The world needs a strong America right?
2:20:12
America right? So Pax American I think has you know we can argue debate this many people do but I think it's good to you know to be able to back up at the uh hopefully we never have to use it but just to be able to to negotiate um and look we need more of it and I think you're also seeing the uh the intel news
2:20:29
from today you're starting to see that hey vertical integration matters y >> uh uh a saying we had deep in the bowels of of pounder was trust no one's execution but your own >> right and if you're beholden to someone else whether it's on the supply chain or whether it's the value delivery to customers. Like the tail might wag the
2:20:44
Like the tail might wag the dog.
2:20:46
And so I I I think it's great that we're starting to see more capital flow here.
2:20:50
I think as with anything where you turn on the spigot, not everything is going to be the highest ROI project, but let's look at the other truth.
2:20:56
If we do nothing, then then we're we're certainly not at a local maximum.
2:20:59
So we need to do something.
2:21:01
I'm I'm excited with the developments. >> Yeah.
2:21:03
Um there was a uh a post by a a founder talking about the state of defense tech.
2:21:10
I want to get your take on some of this.
2:21:12
Uh, uh, the end user is not the buyer.
2:21:14
In commercial, the person who uses your product often decides to buy it.
2:21:18
In defense, the operator might love your system, yet it means nothing.
2:21:22
The buyer is a program manager with a budget.
2:21:24
The operator's endorsement is at best a data point, not a scalable purchase order.
2:21:27
I don't care that some E6 a drum played around with your product and thinks it's cool.
2:21:31
It doesn't really matter. True, false. What What's your take?
2:21:35
You know, you're hitting on this caused us many sleepless nights, months, years at Palanteer.
2:21:40
Ultimately, I mean, it's Palanteer had to sue the US Army.
2:21:45
You can go to Palunteer versus US Army for uh should you buy CS versus got um >> there's many >> that must have been a fun that must have been a fun decision for you for you to be weighing in on like >> how much litigation is litigation is already expensive, but going up against your customer.
2:22:02
Yeah, >> it's uh it's not the preferred let's just say they don't teach that in a classroom. Yeah.
2:22:08
>> Um the look I think I think enterprise sales is tough but enterprise sales inside you know the government or any large institution is even more difficult.
2:22:18
And there's a couple different things you have to do.
2:22:20
And number one you've got to create the facts on the ground, right?
2:22:22
That's that's the mission wins that you're you're referencing there. But that's not enough.
2:22:26
It's it's necessary but not sufficient.
2:22:29
>> At the other side you have to go and and make sure the the decision makers know what to do.
2:22:33
And then you can do a pinser and say, "All right, let's just move it and put some pressure on the middle."
2:22:38
Um, and I like to think of as when is it riskier to not act than to act.
2:22:40
So you're sort of creating this constellation where you can get movement.
2:22:44
But uh the the advice to anyone embarking on the defense tech journey is make sure you're very well capitalized because it's going to take you a long it's a long uh road to hoe and so make sure you can withstand it.
2:22:56
I also think and this is a point Shamsart you know at Palunteer has made is you've got to you know dual source really helps because it can bring down that cost curve as you scale especially if you're working with atoms and not just electrons and that that can help you survive while you're waiting for the door inside the government to open.
2:23:13
Pounder you would not have had a strong government business if it didn't have a commercial business and vice versa.
2:23:17
Um, on that note, uh, Chris in this post says, "If you're pitching dual use, you're probably just unfocused.
2:23:24
Real Dualuse companies are vanishingly rare."
2:23:29
The example he gives is Palunteer.
2:23:29
Uh, most that try end up with a watered down product.
2:23:34
No real defense tech traction, no commercial fit, pick a market.
2:23:36
Do you disagree with that or does it just depend like what nuance would you add to actually understand if a company can meaningfully be dual use?
2:23:44
because you do see founders kind of bolting it on now that it's a little bit trendy. Oh, we have this thing. Yeah.
2:23:50
And we also have a office in DC and we we have one person and we work out there.
2:23:54
Um and and yeah, how how would you how would you how would you lay out like if a company can actually get the benefit out of dual use as opposed to it be just being marketing? >> Totally.
2:24:07
Well, it's easier to change lines of marketing than lines of code. Y, right?
2:24:10
So, you got to start out from a first principle and say, what is the thing that ought to exist?
2:24:14
Y >> and if you look at Palunteer or any other class that's that's built dual use, it's saying I can build one product and with a little bit of customization at the end and just the end then it can be sold to both for a very important but different reason.
2:24:29
Um so an example you know also in our portfolio we have uh Astronis right they're building micro geo satellites.
2:24:34
Yeah, >> same same, you know, broad category.
2:24:39
There's a few tweaks, but who doesn't want the sovereignty over their data, >> right?
2:24:43
And so if you need that, you can sell it in a defense capacity.
2:24:45
They're they've been down selected on $2 billion plus programs.
2:24:49
So, you know, a lot of work to do, but that's exciting.
2:24:52
>> Stronis, we love those guys. >> Yeah.
2:24:54
And then, yeah, they John's >> John on the show. He's great. >> Yeah, he's great.
2:24:58
And then like also on the commercial side like let's say you need you know more trunking and back haul and a lot of telos are turning to this from the disruption they're seeing in the market. Sure.
2:25:07
So I think that's one of those ones where they're not building two types of satellites.
2:25:09
They say that's a terrible idea but if you can build one thing and sell it to both parties that helps bring down the cost curve. >> Fantastic. >> Totally.
2:25:16
>> Jordy, do you have anything else? >> No. This is great.
2:25:18
>> Thank you so much for taking the time to hop on. This is fantastic.
2:25:19
We will talk to you soon.
2:25:22
>> You're our new finance correspondent.
2:25:23
>> Is that Sleeping Bear Dunes behind you? Uh, close.
2:25:26
But well, I'll tell you next time. >> Okay.
2:25:29
You'll tell me next time because so somebody in the chat said bullish on the painting of Sleeping Bear Dunes in the background.
2:25:33
I was just trying to take credit for being identifying it, but I was wrong because they were wrong.
2:25:38
But anyway, we'll talk soon.
2:25:40
>> Well, good to see you guys. Thanks so much.
2:25:41
Thanks for coming on, Colin. Cheers. >> Bye. >> Bye.
2:25:44
>> Uh, we have Truman Saxs coming on in a few minutes.
2:25:46
But in the meantime, let me tell you about Adio, customer relationship magic.
2:25:48
Adio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level. And you heard Dr.
2:25:54
Drew talking about the importance of sleep.
2:25:56
You got to get an eight sleep. >> Yeah.
2:25:59
I mean, when you said that, I was like, we partnered with a eight was one of our very first partners and we had the foresight to understand that if we wanted to do this for decades, we needed to sleep like champions.
2:26:10
>> It really was one of those partnerships where it was like this is going to be additive in like more than in many many ways, right?
2:26:17
>> 93 >> I probably got >> back in the 90s. 7 hours 47 minutes. I put up what did I do? >> Eight sleep.
2:26:23
Two and a half hours of deep sleep. >> 83. 83.
2:26:26
How'd I do on deep sleep? One hour of deep sleep. Oh no.
2:26:31
>> You were an absolute mess this morning. >> I know.
2:26:32
I was such >> John showed up to the gym and the and I was >> so sleepy.
2:26:36
>> I was like, "Wake up, dude." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:26:37
Anyway, we should do uh we we we got to touch on the timeline and turmoil.
2:26:40
Martin Casado said the idea that non-consensus investing is where the alpha is is actually quite dangerous in the early stage.
2:26:49
follow on capital tends to be more and more consensus aligned.
2:26:54
He's basically saying being contrarian is bad, being consensus is good. I could not agree more. I completely agree. Consensus is amazing. Do you agree? >> He's not just right. He's he's he's on point. >> It's incredible. Tyler, do you agree? >> Yes.
2:27:09
>> I think everyone agree. Ben, do you agree? >> I agree.
2:27:12
>> I think everyone agrees.
2:27:12
Everyone agrees that agreement is is is good here. Um, no, of course.
2:27:16
Uh, of course this is it's funny because uh the whole contrarian meme has become such a meme that it's now consensus to say that contrarian ideas are better.
2:27:23
And so by saying that consensus things is actually contrarian, you know, but uh of course um you know the the contrarian idea still holds uh this cont this consensus thing turn into >> momentum.
2:27:35
John Chu went went on the attack.
2:27:37
This sounds more like they overpaid for everything and their companies are struggling to raise so he's asking for help marking things up.
2:27:44
that that that job post is hilarious because >> in his name is Coastal Ventures and so it hits as a as like a subweet.
2:27:49
So it's like going to war so much more aggressively.
2:27:54
>> It's not it's not a >> it's great. >> Yeah.
2:27:56
It's not a sub it's a direct >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a direct attack.
2:27:57
It's timeline and turmoil.
2:27:59
But uh >> I mean I just I just like I mean this was a way for the entire allocator community to signal that hey we're not packing for for uh for Black Rock City. We're here. >> Oh yeah.
2:28:12
We're here debating >> debating >> debating whether or not we should do consensus deals >> or non- consensus >> or or or stick to the non-consensus ones.
2:28:20
Um >> there was there was a really a really >> funny post earlier.
2:28:23
I I don't know if it made it into the timeline, but uh there was this uh somebody who had created a restaurant. They were complaining.
2:28:29
They were like, uh my my food is so good. It's all farmtotable.
2:28:34
I don't know why people aren't going.
2:28:36
I'm only making $50 a day.
2:28:38
and somebody quoted it with like picture of PT and then the the the excerpt from uh 0ero to1 where he's like talking about you know British food in San Francisco and how you can have the best British food highly competitive. >> Yeah.
2:28:52
So >> yeah um the the Martin Casado post there's a little back and forth.
2:28:55
Leo Polo uh Povitz says, "If you consider the top top few dozen highest alpha bets of the last 10 to 15 years, what fraction would you say were consensus versus non-consensus at early stage?"
2:29:10
Martin Casado says, "I suspect more consensus than not and Keith Reo chimes in and says OpenAI was non-conensus. Scale was non-conensus. Stripe was non-conensus.
2:29:18
Whiz uh the C round I guess was not.
2:29:22
Ramp, Door Dash, uh, RH, Robin Hood, uh, Canva, Figma, all being non-conensus.
2:29:28
He gets quote tweeted then by Martin Cassad.
2:29:30
Yes, Keith, you're right. I'm very sorry. You're very original.
2:29:34
And it's an AI image of Keith Boy saying, "I'm so original. I moved to Miami."
2:29:37
Um, but like >> I like how he was kind of dunking on Keith, but Keith looks fantastic.
2:29:42
>> He does look diceed here. He looks really good.
2:29:44
It's like, but that's like nice picture. >> Nice picture. Yeah.
2:29:48
But the other thing is like is like like moving to Miami was contrarian.
2:29:52
Like that was not that was not a consensus thing at all.
2:29:53
So I I don't like he really is was that was a very original idea to try and build a tech company Miami like um and that's the nature of the of the contrarian and like the non-conensus bets is like yeah sometimes uh you get a you you get a lot of wild >> you want to be you want to be consensus among the contrarian investors with with elite returns and non-conensus with the >> consensus investors.
2:30:19
>> No I I actually have distilled it.
2:30:19
You want to be greedy when 145 IQ people are greedy.
2:30:25
You want to be fearful when 101 IQ people are greedy. >> That's the real move. >> That's the play.
2:30:32
>> Yeah, >> we've cracked venture.
2:30:34
>> Yes, that's fine to be hyper mimedic as long as you're hyper mimetic with a genius >> and you're copying a genius.
2:30:39
This is like the Nancy Pelosi stock trader or something.
2:30:43
Anyway, if you're trying to trade some stocks, get over to public.
2:30:46
com investing for those that take it seriously.
2:30:48
They got multi-asset investing, industryleading yields.
2:30:51
They're trusted by millions.
2:30:51
When you get on there, remember, be greedy when others are fearful and be fearful when other are greedy. Do your own research.
2:30:59
Make some good investments, folks.
2:31:01
>> Well, we should pull up this launch video from uh our next guest, Truman.
2:31:05
>> Let's pull up the >> uh who announced Cubby Law today. Pull it up.
2:31:10
Let's react >> and then we'll bring in Truman Saxs from Cubby Law.
2:31:14
Um you shared it in the group.
2:31:17
Let me tell you about Bezel.
2:31:19
While we're pulling that up, your bezel concierge is available now to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch. Go to getbbezzle. com.
2:31:29
Um, and >> and here's Truman.
2:31:31
Welcome to the show, Truman. >> No, stop. >> Let's play this.
2:31:36
>> And how you're graded depends entirely on your professor, but most students study with generic outlines and flashcards, not the materials they're actually being tested on.
2:31:44
Cubby is the first AI teaching assistant for law students.
2:31:49
Trained on your professor syllabus, past exams, and student outlines.
2:31:53
So, your case briefs match how they teach, and your practice exams mirror how they test.
2:31:58
It's like having your professor tutor you every night.
2:32:02
Learn the law, master your professor, and outperform the curve with Cubby. >> Good set design, too. I love it.
2:32:06
Well, welcome to the stream, Sherman. How you doing?
2:32:11
Welcome from the reream waiting room Ultra Dome.
2:32:16
>> No, you're you're good. You're good. We can hear you now. >> We can hear you.
2:32:18
I think we're just being noisy. >> What's up? >> Good. Congrats on the launch.
2:32:22
>> Haven't seen you since uh workout.
2:32:22
Phil, was it six months ago? >> It's true.
2:32:26
Yeah, it was about 6 months ago. >> I know.
2:32:28
I like every morning I'm like, damn, I wish I could steam with the boys today. >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:32:31
Next time you're in LA, come hang. It'll be fun. >> Every day. Every day.
2:32:35
>> So, >> and you were telling us about you were telling us about this play. >> Yeah.
2:32:38
>> So, it's glad great to see you at launch. Thank you, man.
2:32:40
I'm excited for it to go public.
2:32:42
>> Yeah, break it down for us. What are you launching?
2:32:44
Uh what's the pitch and what what kind of led you to this particular subm market? >> Yeah, great question.
2:32:49
Um you know, it kind of dates back to like a conversation you and I were having with Senra a few years ago now. That runion hike. Yeah.
2:32:57
>> Um you're telling me how like >> beautiful Renion hike where where great stories begin. Runion Canyon, folks. >> Canyon.
2:33:05
>> Running Canyon to In and Outber.
2:33:05
Um, >> couple influencers doing Renion.
2:33:11
>> Dude, we got stopped like every second. >> It was crazy.
2:33:15
>> Um, anyways, but no, I mean, John was talking about this idea that just like there are power law people, they're also power law books.
2:33:20
Um, it's a Kanan idea right there.
2:33:23
And, uh, 0ero to one is the we both agreed is the business power law book.
2:33:28
And there's a quote which I I think like kind of defines my personal operating philosophy which is like the perfect target market for a startup is a small group of particular people concentrating together and served by few or no competitors. >> Mhm.
2:33:41
>> So I think that like sums up the law school industry in a shell.
2:33:45
>> Um >> law school is three years. It's curve based.
2:33:48
So everyone's stack brain against each other with public rankings.
2:33:51
>> Um and it's like directly correlated to the job you get after law school is how you perform with your grades. Yeah.
2:33:57
>> So like big law firms, everyone's vying for the same big law jobs after law school which pay like 220k out of pock and there's only a limited amount of them and they're >> a day. >> Yeah.
2:34:08
The AI research market is if you don't make that start chasing ambulances, bro, >> that's what happens.
2:34:15
Seriously, it is a knockout dragout fight in law school.
2:34:20
>> Got to get to the top of the ranking. >> But no. Yeah, it's crazy.
2:34:21
So like everyone's competing each other because there's like a everyone knows there's public rankings like you're either the top of your class or you're not and the firms see that and that's what they're recruiting off of.
2:34:30
So um the mindset of the consumer is that of like I will invest in my future like anything that will help me do better in school is an investment and I will spend money on it.
2:34:39
So I it's a really like powerful lever to tap in as a as a business you tap into that market.
2:34:42
Um so what we built was like the first AI teaching assistant for law students.
2:34:46
Um, we've like trained a model on thousands of practice exams and case reefs written by like a top Georgetown law uh law student who just graduated.
2:34:54
And we built like an entire experience that's almost like a dual lingo style course that calibrates all the material that's specific to your course and your professor all the way through the final exam.
2:35:04
So you could take like unlimited final exams and practice throughout the semester.
2:35:06
Um, get instant grades, feedback, and it's all kind of built to mirror exactly how your specific professor would like teach a grade.
2:35:14
Um, because that's who decides your grade. >> Yeah.
2:35:17
What what's the business model then?
2:35:18
Do you do you want to sell to the law school?
2:35:19
Sell to the law students.
2:35:21
>> Just take like 30% of their lifetime earnings.
2:35:23
Don't don't worry about the business.
2:35:26
>> We have like a really aggressive terms and conditions.
2:35:27
Uh >> that uh lambda school is doing ISAs, income that was but but income share agreements.
2:35:35
>> But I think those are I think those aren't kosher anymore.
2:35:37
>> Yeah, it's always tricky. Anyway, yeah.
2:35:40
Who are you going to who's actually putting down the credit card? >> So, good question. right now.
2:35:43
Like it's funny enough, there's already an existing tool in this market from 2007 called Quimby.
2:35:47
Everybody, everybody in law school, like ask 8 out of 10 law students, they buy Quimby for 30 bucks a month.
2:35:53
>> So there's around 120,000 law students in the US um per year and like they're all spending 30 bucks a month on this software from 2007 that hasn't changed.
2:36:00
It's like a static company for like cliffnotes for case law effectively.
2:36:02
So we we we plan to come in as like a 10x better replacement for that and think that like our tool versus their like just straight up like the decision will be obvious. Sure.
2:36:13
>> So that's kind of coming in what we're trying to surf up initially and then over time like we've already had some interest about like partnering with schools themselves. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like that.
2:36:20
>> How how do you see the top of funnel?
2:36:21
Like how do you reach a >> there's so many there's so many fun things that you can do on campuses to make sure that you cannot go to law school without knowing about >> drone show.
2:36:32
>> Well, as we speak right now, we have hundreds of law students at from Cordo Law at a Cubby Cafe truck outside.
2:36:39
>> Yeah, there was going to say truck. >> Yeah, exactly. Free coffee. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Free coffee. Papa bagels, ice cream.
2:36:46
So that's like an on campus approach for um this week.
2:36:48
I'd like >> you guys should do branded aderall. >> Dude, low key. >> Do not do that. Illegal.
2:36:58
>> Uh I'm sure there's I'm sure there's a tele medicine company that that could uh controlled substance.
2:37:04
It's specifically you cannot do that.
2:37:06
But it's just so funny because this industry is run by like like legacy like these like massive bar prep companies.
2:37:13
Like the our biggest got acquired a few months ago and like the second we launched like a small Tik Tok like of just like what we're doing.
2:37:19
We got seasons in desisted by them.
2:37:19
Um just like like hey like we we think you might be training on our materials like and if you are like we're going to come after you but like we're not sure.
2:37:26
So we were just like off and and they're like oh yeah yeah we're sorry like we're going to counter you for these anti-competitive practices.
2:37:36
So, it's an interesting like sleeper market that I like I think it's an interesting wedge as well to go deeper into the actual law like legal tech space as well because once you have that relationship with the customer, you know, they're they're the future lawyers of America.
2:37:47
>> You should prove how how how well the product works by personally counter suing the >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I passed the bar.
2:37:56
>> I learned it all with Cubby.
2:37:56
It >> it is uh it is particularly difficult to pass the bar without going to law school.
2:38:03
school. you have like there's one loophole where I believe you can you can like mentor under a lawyer and they can say that you're that you're allowed to but in general you cannot take the bar and pass it just because you did the studying like you have to be in a law school accredited uh yeah it's all to
2:38:19
control the number of lawyers to drive up uh comp >> well maybe we'll open our own law school at this point for kids who just are fed up with the traditional system >> yeah there's like one online law school or there's only a few like that that actually let you do it in this particular way like it's very like hacky. It It's a very tightly controlled
2:38:33
It It's a very tightly controlled uh like market in general.
2:38:38
>> Sounds like you tried to hack it at some point.
2:38:41
>> I I actually >> if there's a system I did, John will try to hack >> and I emailed a guy who who did it and he was just like basically credential maxing and he and he was like a lawyer, a doctor, and had figured out how to do all of these things because he was really smart and he could take tests really well.
2:38:55
And so he just went around and got like law degrees, but figured out like the the the minimum time, maximum amount of money.
2:39:01
So, you pay a ton of money to to do this, get all the test prep, and then take the test.
2:39:05
And I was like, "Well, did you wind up using the law degree ever?"
2:39:08
He's like, "No, >> but it's a flex." Yeah, it's a flex. It's a flex.
2:39:13
And I was like, "I like this guy.
2:39:14
I should email him, get him on the show." Uh, >> yeah.
2:39:17
>> Anyway, how big is the actual market?
2:39:19
like are are you going to go like venture mega round like Harvey style or or or is this more something that you want to grind at for for a long time and you think you can just like find a great wedge great business and then maybe if there's like a secondary market that opens up then that's the venture territory. >> Yeah, great question.
2:39:34
Um so the legal education market's five years.
2:39:37
It's from Alsat Bar like you mentioned.
2:39:39
Um we have 120,000 plus people going through that every every year.
2:39:43
And I think the average like C customer spends over over three over five years uh $5,000 on on like supplemental spend.
2:39:51
>> So take that times the time you're looking at like a billion dollar just education. >> Sure. Sure. Sure.
2:39:54
>> Um but at the same time like so I I do think bar and elsat's kind of where we take it next.
2:39:59
Um that we could see some like meaningful um AR growth from there.
2:40:03
But I I I just I'm really excited about this concept of like we we know in the age of AI everything is like distribution and like what kind of like moat and competitive edge do you have on on the customer acquisition side and like it's so difficult to break into legal tech like I don't think that's why we see so many rappers in the legal tech
2:40:19
space because it's just like such an old guard and you need to know connections you need to have like specialized models the bar for quality is so much higher and I think if we can really entrench ourselves and establish ourselves as a meaningful player in law school like I said like every single one of these >> players are going to legal and to to the big law firms next. And I think if we're
2:40:35
And I think if we're able to kind of create that relationship with them, help them start building like practicing legal research in their like breaching classes while they're in law school, they're going to get used to that flow just like they got used to Google Docs and brought that to them to work with them.
2:40:48
So I do think there is a really interesting play to kind of like continue with the the customer to the workforce that I think we'll try to angle for. >> Makes sense.
2:40:56
Are you playing to >> somebody Taylor in the chat is not a not a PC uh but That's going wild right now.
2:41:03
>> They said cubby branded one one and a quarter by one and a quarter ziplock baggies for for maybe the associates after they moved to New York.
2:41:11
>> Cubby event at Marquee on Saturday nights. >> Yeah.
2:41:14
Uh John actually threw the horse emoji in the chat.
2:41:16
Is there plan to do horse branded merch?
2:41:20
>> You know the team that's like huge into horsepower.
2:41:21
Play horse noise on there. >> Of course.
2:41:24
>> See like I don't know if you guys see that on my wall. >> Oh yeah. >> There you go.
2:41:29
>> Anyway, great catching up with you.
2:41:31
Thanks so much for hopping on. Congrat to see you. Congrats on launch.
2:41:35
>> We will talk to you soon.
2:41:36
>> Good luck with the rest roll out. Talk to you soon. Bye.
2:41:40
>> Let me tell you about Wander.
2:41:42
>> Find your happy place. Find your happy place.
2:41:45
>> Book a wander with inspiring views, hotel, great amenities, dreamy beds, top tier cleaning, and 24/7 concier service.
2:41:49
It's a vacation home but better.
2:41:51
>> But anyway, Paula Ramble says, "Every day in SF is an opportunity to discover a new type of guy. Eg.
2:41:55
This guy in a holographic Ferrari with a pet duck and a very loud Chihuahua dressed up as a chicken. >> So, the duck is real.
2:42:06
>> The duck is real, but >> the duck is real, but the chicken is a real dog, not as >> This is wild.
2:42:13
>> We got to get this guy on the show.
2:42:13
I'm assuming he already listens to the show.
2:42:16
>> He pro I hope he made his money in Enterprise S.
2:42:18
That would be that would be incredible.
2:42:19
It has crypto written all over it, but it could be could be uh driving business value with uh vertical integration or something. I don't know.
2:42:29
>> Well, on Friday, Alexander Wang announced a partnership with Midjourney to license their aesthetic technology for our future models and products.
2:42:37
Bringing beauty to billions.
2:42:37
And David Hull says, "Bring sublime tools of creation of beauty to billions of people is squarely within our mission.
2:42:42
Excited to partner with the titans of industry to make this happen.
2:42:46
How much do you think they are paying to license Midjourney's tech? >> I have no idea. Has it leaked or? >> No. No.
2:42:54
I'm just purely speculating.
2:42:54
I mean, I I I would I would go out and guess that it's hundreds of millions of dollars. >> Yeah.
2:43:02
I I I mean, I would imagine it's priced based on like inference, right?
2:43:06
It's probably like some margin on top of like Midjourney's inference infrastructure.
2:43:10
And I believe Midjourney was fantastic at optimizing inference early on.
2:43:14
early on. they were uh they were known for because the images take a minute to generate latency actual latency like to the data center doesn't matter and so if you're in America and you're generating an image on image journey that that generation will happen halfway across
2:43:33
the world in a data center that's at not peak load and so they're basically always moving allegedly I have no idea if this is true I just heard this on the podcast one time but um they're they're allegedly moving uh inference around the globe to to find pockets of of available compute to do the inference. Um and I
2:43:49
Um and I mean I I I think the midjourney models are are so good they should be able to do a ton of optimization uh bake it onto a chip at some point. Who knows?
2:43:57
But um it's certainly like having midjourney in Instagram so much sense.
2:44:04
>> The the Yeah, 100% agree.
2:44:04
The reason this feels like, you know, I would say the midjourney team and David, I'm sure they >> they they they're not interested in in flexing some big number on timeline.
2:44:15
I'm sure Meta at the same time doesn't care to have another, you know, massive deal even be announced.
2:44:22
But this feel in the way that licensing the think about when we've been hearing technology licenses in the sort of AI wars.
2:44:29
Yeah, >> these end up being, you know, Google paid a billion dollars, billions of dollars to license Windf, right?
2:44:36
And so, >> uh, what, uh, what do you think, Tyler?
2:44:41
How do you think, uh, the midjourney partnership will play out with Meta >> and they might need to rename because this is anything but a mid journey.
2:44:51
>> Um, yeah, it's definitely interesting.
2:44:52
Uh, David, he he also replied to that post.
2:44:54
He said, "We remain an independent communitybacked research lab with no investors." Yep.
2:44:57
So, um, >> we just now have hundreds of millions of Zuck bucks coming in.
2:45:02
>> I mean, they I'm pretty sure they have hundreds of millions of subscriber dollars. >> Yeah, I know.
2:45:06
That's why I'm saying like they they have to be underwriting this against like, well, we could just go get a bunch more customers.
2:45:12
>> So, I imagine that Zach had to back up this >> Yeah, it's very interesting.
2:45:14
I heard I heard David Holes's like secret sauce described as just pure taste.
2:45:18
So like they would train a model, they would look at the different like benchmarks and evals and what was performing and he would just look at the images and be like we're using that model like it doesn't matter what it says basically this is >> yeah I mean it's hard to do like really good benchmarks in in you know diffusion models like when you're generating like visuals or video or stuff like that. >> Yeah.
2:45:43
>> Yeah. I mean, I think you kind of set up like a GAN, like a generative adversarial network where you have one model that's trying to detect is this a real image or a fake image and and then you have another so so you're generating
2:45:53
a bunch of you take a bunch of real images and you take a bunch of AI generated images and and you keep training the AI generated image image generator until the detector can't detect that it's fake and then you have something that produces real images. But
2:46:04
But I think his goal has been I don't just want to create images that look real.
2:46:08
I want to create images that look good.
2:46:13
And so >> yeah, and there's definitely I mean you can see even like different midjourney versions there's definitely like a a style that you can like almost it's not like immediately obviously you can say like that's midjourney v V5 or something
2:46:23
but there is like a vibe that >> I mean images and shotgly nailed Giblies like out of the park and was probably like RL to some extent like on that or like optimized for that a little bit and it was a great user experience and it was a good decision. Um, but the flip side is is that
2:46:38
Um, but the flip side is is that MidJourney's kind of gone for like their own style and it's great. Um, yeah, very exciting.
2:46:44
I mean, Jordy, have you heard the story of David Hull's first company, Lead Motion? Oh, it's fantastic.
2:46:48
I think you've told it before. >> Crazy crazy story.
2:46:51
Yeah, I've probably told it.
2:46:52
um I made a whole video about it and stuff, but um basically uh it it was a uh a point projector that would track your hand in 3D space.
2:47:01
So you could pair it with a virtual reality headset to detect hand motion.
2:47:05
And so you could actually put it in an using this like aftermarket 3D printed device like on the front of an Oculus and then it could track your hands doing hand tracking.
2:47:16
And I believe that there was a plan rumored uh to sell the company to Apple and Apple had already like printed welcome packages to the to the Leapmotion team and then I think at some point the deal fell apart.
2:47:28
Maybe that was because David Holes didn't want to work at the company or some something happened and and the deal fell apart and um and he wound up moving on.
2:47:39
Um but then like took clearly like all those learnings, everything he had studied and transferred all of that over to image generation when um when the first like image generation boom started and then just uh like absolutely uh found like a rocket ship opportunity with midjourney.
2:48:02
So uh fantastic fantastic story.
2:48:02
Very excited that they're partnering.
2:48:06
>> And then the other story that we should cover, I don't want to miss it.
2:48:07
Um Elon Musk's XAI sues Apple and Open AI alleging they are quote monopolists.
2:48:13
So Elon and the team going to legal war.
2:48:20
Musk says the partnership between the two companies has given chat GBT maker access to billions of user prompts. >> Interesting.
2:48:28
>> Uh so uh Elon Musk AI company XAI sued Apple and Open AI Monday Monday alleging the companies are illegally thwarting competition for AI companies.
2:48:36
As the lawsuit says, the iPhone makaker's partnership with OpenAI makes the startup's chat GBT the only Genai chatbot that benefits from billions of user prompts originating from hundreds of millions of iPhones.
2:48:46
That enables OpenAI to use the prompts and feedback to improve its model, a significant advantage, according to the complaint.
2:48:53
The suit also says Apple is depprioritizing the apps of competing chat bots and app store ranking.
2:48:59
>> Is it really billions of user prompts? That that is crazy.
2:49:02
So, I've tried to use chatpt IP. I like chatyppt. I use it a lot.
2:49:08
I have it on my home row.
2:49:08
I also I try and trigger it with Siri every once in a while.
2:49:12
I'll go to uh I'll press the Siri button and uh and bring up uh Apple Intelligence, which is Siri, and I'll and I'll ask it a question and then I'll go open the chat app and type in my actual question because it does not work.
2:49:27
Um, I just had this happen where I asked Siri um to calculate the hypotenuse and Siri's triggered.
2:49:36
Um, to calculate the hypotenuse of a triangle with a right triangle with sides that are like 18 ft.
2:49:41
We need to calculate something in the studio here.
2:49:44
And it just says like the hypotenuse is equal to the Pythagorean.
2:49:46
It just didn't it didn't answer the question at all.
2:49:50
And then I just had to go over to TetP and have it actually do the math.
2:49:51
Um, so there's ways to trigger it, but like I would just be shocked if people if like your average iPhone >> I'm sure they're just counting in this lawsuit counting all people that have downloaded the Chad GPT iPhone app.
2:50:03
>> Oh, you think it's that? >> Yeah.
2:50:06
>> I don't I don't think it's it's not it's not Gabe Aar who said earlier he has 15 lawyers in the AAR family says yet again lawyers stay winning with these pointless cases.
2:50:16
Um, the lawsuit says in a desperate bid to protect its smartphone monopoly, Apple has joined forces with the company that benefits that most benefits from inhibiting competition and innovation in AI, OpenAI monopolists in the market for Gen AI chatbots.
2:50:30
An Apple spokesman didn't immediately respond to requests for comment.
2:50:34
Apple has previously said the app store is designed to be free of bias and the company has defended the fairness of its partnership with OpenAI.
2:50:42
Apple executives have said they will only partner with what they see as the best products to provide the best user experience. >> Yeah.
2:50:48
Um, so I believe the I believe the Apple OpenAI partnership on chat routing Siri queries to chatbt is no no monetary value exchanged either way, which is interesting because you could see you could make an argument that both of them would pay because Apple would be better off if I had chatt kind of installed natively within uh Apple intelligence and then simultaneously chat benefits from getting more users from Apple ecosystem.
2:51:16
So I I believe that it just netted out where they don't pay each other at anything.
2:51:21
But if you're an if you're XAI and you want that relationship, you could go and say I'm going to pay potentially and maybe pull it away and say, "Hey, now yeah, now uh Mecha has come to Apple intelligence." Might be a hard sell.
2:51:37
Yeah, I mean the challenge here is I think Apple Apple can uh defend just based on the kind of content that you know um I don't see Apple putting XAI or Grock at the top of the adult content.
2:51:54
It's >> but I do think that XI's never been a fan of adult content.
2:51:57
They've just never been a fan >> XAI has a should fairly you >> should should be able to request that Siri route to Grock. Yeah, totally. Right.
2:52:07
a user should be able to >> Yeah, I mean you can do that like the long-term scenario like I'm pretty sure you can go and select a different search engine for your Safari default in iOS.
2:52:17
You can say I'm a Bing guy and I want it to route to Bing and it will do that.
2:52:19
Um Army the Bang Army does that.
2:52:25
>> Stop talking down on Bing.
2:52:25
They make four billion a year or something.
2:52:27
Was it was it 16 billion or something? >> Some crazy numbers. >> Yeah.
2:52:32
And so uh >> um you you could imagine that Yeah.
2:52:34
you should at least be able to do that and that's certainly not a feature. Um, and so I don't know.
2:52:39
Anyway, >> yeah, the chat the chat is saying >> the the Grock army wants to route Siri to route through to Anie.
2:52:49
>> Yeah, it's the worst time to be named Anie, I suppose.
2:52:50
Anyway, congratulations to our buddy John Fantino.
2:52:52
These pictures, he says, are about 10 months apart.
2:52:57
First picture was the test. Second is the pull.
2:53:01
>> You can move faster than you think. Experiment. Find the spark. Explode it. drinked. com. Uh I went I went Yep.
2:53:08
Roughly 10 months ago, I went and uh got Ved.
2:53:14
Uh >> John had a setup outside of Jeans in New York.
2:53:18
Uh the product >> uh worked honestly potentially too well.
2:53:24
I was I was I was jacked up after it.
2:53:26
But he has his flagship in in Nashville now and uh seems to be packed every single day.
2:53:32
So >> Volta, God wills it is the phrase >> from the >> saw how quickly Elon is spinning up data centers.
2:53:40
He said, "Why can't I spin up a flagship Volta flagship in Nashville in in months?" >> Let's do it.
2:53:44
It's been a huge success.
2:53:47
>> Uh Dax said, "My wife's water broke, so she went to download an app to time her contraction.
2:53:51
I grabbed her phone out of her hands. What are you doing?
2:53:53
Don't you realize we live in the age of personal software?"
2:53:58
We downloaded Replet and vibe coded the perfect app with 3JS and superb.
2:54:04
We're naming the ba the baby Grock high 2025.
2:54:08
>> I put this in here and I only I only read the first line and so I thought it was going to be like a meditation on like actually like staying in the present during like a beautiful moment in your life.
2:54:19
>> Yeah, I put I put this in there.
2:54:19
I'm glad you I'm glad you didn't actually read it. >> That's really funny. I love it. >> Yeah.
2:54:24
Um, this is a good post from uh Andrea.
2:54:27
Productivity is a spectrum.
2:54:27
Uh, and this we we basically have picked a side audience.
2:54:35
>> I got a diet coke here. I eat McDonald's.
2:54:37
>> I spent the weekend in my sauna in cold plunge with my >> Oh, you're on the left. >> I'm on the left. >> I'm on the right.
2:54:43
>> You're very I've even back I'm an investor in magnet. >> Oh, you are? Okay. Yeah.
2:54:46
I I mean I'm I I pull from both sides. I pull from both sides. I like Heman Lab. I like the sauna.
2:54:52
I'm I I won't shy away from a monster Chipotle burrito bowl.
2:54:57
>> You know, I do a little bit of both.
2:54:58
Never get in the hard stop. Don't like that.
2:55:01
>> Be get in the middle, you know.
2:55:01
The middle is the the is the >> Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of both.
2:55:07
Everything in moderation, including moderation, folks. >> Okay.
2:55:10
So, pull up this president or sorry, sorry, not president picture of the Oval Office.
2:55:14
Uh we have >> Wait, do you want to start with >> No, we should start with we should start with what it looks like today.
2:55:20
>> Today Today is the third one.
2:55:20
And it looks like >> Yeah.
2:55:24
So this is the Biden the Biden Oval Office versus the Trump one.
2:55:28
>> One forward is the Biden Oval Office, I believe.
2:55:30
And and probably every Oval Office for the past like three decades.
2:55:35
Uh pretty standard, comfortable, muted.
2:55:38
It it's opulent but not over the top.
2:55:41
And then if you switch to the next shot, you will see uh Donald Trump has really really brought back the 17th century touches. Yes.
2:55:52
>> With uh gold accents everywhere. Yes. >> On every surface. >> Floor to ceiling. >> Floor to ceiling. Gold.
2:55:59
>> I like how he added those trophies.
2:55:59
Like I I want to know what the trophies are for.
2:56:04
>> It used to just be some leaves and then uh >> semiconductor world champion.
2:56:08
>> Edwin says uh when a millennial becomes a president and it's this ultra minimal >> Oh wow.
2:56:13
>> design that is uh it hits it hits hard.
2:56:16
That is a that is a standard uh that is the standard issue.
2:56:19
um luxury apartment or living space these days for everyone.
2:56:24
>> First millennial president is gonna be wild.
2:56:27
>> Yeah, we need maybe we go straight to Zoomer.
2:56:30
I've said for a long time, I want a president with stamina.
2:56:32
Someone who can just pull an allnighter with his boys and solve the problem, monitors the situation.
2:56:39
Anyway, uh Lala says, "There's no such thing as taste at the signal level.
2:56:45
there's only personalization and variance when LLM outputs look tasteless.
2:56:49
It's a sign of the app not having the right user model or not having tuned the output variety.
2:56:58
Well, let's go to our taste expert, Tyler Cosgrove.
2:57:00
Do you believe AI can have taste?
2:57:04
>> Um, maybe not right now, but the post just seems like it seems like obviously wrong.
2:57:08
Like there's that good um Paul Graham post >> where he's like is there good art or like >> can can is like can you is there an objective like good art? >> Yeah.
2:57:18
>> And like obviously there is because some artists are better than others. >> Mhm. >> Right.
2:57:22
Because like I'm a worse artist than >> sure >> whoever >> maybe.
2:57:26
>> Um and like how how who's a better artist?
2:57:29
It's if you make better art which means there must be better art.
2:57:32
>> So like >> taste is the same thing.
2:57:34
There's obvious there's objectively good taste because >> I would say there is good taste.
2:57:38
I would say there is not objectively good taste.
2:57:42
There is subjectively good taste.
2:57:42
But I believe that subjective things are true.
2:57:47
I believe that that money is is is a is a construct. It's an idea.
2:57:50
It's a it it it doesn't have intrinsic value.
2:57:56
>> There's many there's many people that would say that Trump's Oval Office is of poor taste, but to him it's the highest of high. Exactly. Exactly.
2:58:03
And yet and yet I believe in things that that have that have an unobjective quality, a subjective quality.
2:58:12
>> Do you think there's objectively like good art and and like art that is better than other art?
2:58:18
>> I think that there is art that is better than other art, but I don't believe that it is objectively better. >> Okay.
2:58:22
Do you think >> I don't believe I can quantify >> John's been bidding on the banana tape to the wall, by the way.
2:58:26
So, >> I'm not a big fan of that one.
2:58:29
But but of course I think that there's some art that's better than others, but I would not say it is it is objectively better.
2:58:37
>> Do you think Michelangelo is objectively a better artist than me? >> Maybe.
2:58:43
There's certainly there's certainly uh like like the ability to instantiate the art is is an objective quality.
2:58:50
Like the ability like a certain person will be able to make a functional vase on a pottery wheel and another person will fail at that.
2:58:56
One person will try and draw a person.
2:58:58
It will look more photoreal.
2:59:00
But that's not the only thing that I see art being.
2:59:03
Like Michelangelo did not paint the Systeine Chapel himself, right?
2:59:07
He had a team that did that. >> I'm pretty sure. >> I don't know.
2:59:12
We'll have to look it up. Grock, is this real? Chad, is this real?
2:59:15
Um, >> but uh well, more importantly, >> but I do think I do think the two things are separate and I think the the taste is different than the skill set.
2:59:23
>> Can we uh I I want to get on to some more important topics.
2:59:26
Can we pull up this post of uh of Doge employee big balls repping 225? >> Wait, really? Oh, that's who that is. I saw the picture. And this is great.
2:59:34
I saw I saw it's Edward Corine. Is that who that is? Recovery.
2:59:44
>> Yeah, >> this is this is Mr. Balls. Wow. >> Just repping it out. >> Looking great, too. Good form.
2:59:49
He's not five points of contact. Okay.
2:59:54
But but coming off >> strong men create good times >> happens to me. Happens to me. Uh wow.
3:00:01
And and this is of course a response to the the mayoral candidate in New York City, Mdani, >> um who was seen uh potentially not being able to bench, but it's possible that he just had an overeager spotter.
3:00:14
>> Um we're we're unclear.
3:00:14
But >> he didn't look super comfortable under there. >> Yeah.
3:00:18
>> He had to go to a dark dark place for those reps. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
3:00:22
>> He knew he knew when he stood up that he was cooked, too.
3:00:24
I I I don't understand why how he wound up in a situation.
3:00:26
He seems very calculated in what he films.
3:00:29
A lot of it's very cinematic.
3:00:30
>> Apparently, apparently, um there's other angles of it.
3:00:33
He was resistant to doing it.
3:00:37
>> Oh, he got kind of like Yeah. got talked into it. Okay. That's rough. Yeah.
3:00:38
Uh that's a bit of a of a >> I forgot who was posting.
3:00:42
Somebody was saying like the re the real shrewd political like if he had if he had taken a step back and said, "You know what?
3:00:50
This is gonna be hard for me, but >> yeah, >> together we can we can do anything.
3:00:55
Let's let's let's rep this out together. City of New York.
3:00:58
>> Let's socialize the weight. I want two guys.
3:01:02
Everyone 10 pounds with me right now and we're good. >> Yeah.
3:01:06
>> Anyway, Nikita Beer went to Starbase.
3:01:08
This is one of the perks of being a executive at X.
3:01:10
Uh I spent the day at Starbase and never really understood the scope of what's happening here.
3:01:14
It's a modern-day Manhattan project.
3:01:15
An entire city built for the singular mission of going to space.
3:01:19
Rows of 1950s ranch homes, a couple of restaurants, a grocery store, hovercrafts shuttling people around on water.
3:01:25
I didn't know they had hovercrafts there. That's awesome.
3:01:28
Uh, and launchpads and rocket factories everywhere.
3:01:30
He shares a beautiful picture of himself looking up at the Starship, which I believe did not launch. Is that right?
3:01:37
Or it did launch and it was it was not successful.
3:01:39
Um, but obviously the crew >> No, it didn't.
3:01:43
It didn't uh it didn't launch.
3:01:44
scrapped the >> Yeah, they aborted the launch.
3:01:45
But um >> of course the the machinery at Starbase is unrelenting and I think they're going to get that thing up there eventually. >> They will. Yeah.
3:01:55
The video the video that Elon showed of of inside the the factory just showed this like incredible scale. >> Yeah. Yeah.
3:02:04
>> Um well, I have a post we can end the show with.
3:02:06
Buco Capital says, "My this is from last night.
3:02:08
My timeline tonight, you need extremely concentrated positions, 10bagger thread, bet heavy on consensus, stupid to have cash because bare markets are so short.
3:02:16
Uh cyclicals pitched as secular winners.
3:02:19
They're going to run it hot. Careful out there.
3:02:24
And Zoomer, the legendary Zoomer, >> uh who is zooming on Chinese tech says, "Max levered long all in tech bucko."
3:02:34
>> Uh and of course Zoomer is is going gigant.
3:02:36
How do you even end up at PDD and four?
3:02:39
I genuinely don't get it.
3:02:43
>> You got to have them on.
3:02:43
The great Zoomer versus >> Buco Zoomer versus debate. >> Buco.
3:02:50
>> Oh, Starship is set to launch today.
3:02:50
2 hours and 20 minutes till launch. >> Oh wow.
3:02:54
>> Um I I I'm I'm really for it.
3:02:54
Uh never bet against Elon, baby.
3:02:59
He's going to get that thing up there eventually.
3:03:02
>> Well, thank you for tuning in. Fun show today.
3:03:04
Always great when we can get the doctor to drop to drop on.
3:03:09
>> Always a and fun show.
3:03:11
>> I cannot wait for tomorrow.
3:03:11
We're working on getting somebody to call in from the playa, folks. So, we're working on it.
3:03:16
>> If you are listening to this from Black Rock City, let us know.
3:03:19
We'd love to get some live trophy in the trophy in the White House in the Oval Office is the number one president trophy. Self glaze.
3:03:30
>> Uh, thanks for hanging out, guys. Uh,