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Today's Monday, February 2nd, 2026.
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Whole lot more all in one place.
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>> Uh we have a massive show for you today, folks.
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We have a whole bunch of guests coming on the show. Buddy coming in person.
4:59
Uh it was a big weekend for screenshots.
5:02
It was a big weekend for reading.
5:03
uh molt book was going crazy and then the Epstein files were going crazy.
5:08
Both like a lot of screenshots shared around >> the Super Bowl for schizophrenics. >> Yes. Yes. On both sides. Yeah.
5:13
It was very very very interesting.
5:18
>> But uh I wanted to dig into Maltbook because the story sort of broke during the show on Friday and we didn't get a chance to really get to the bottom of it at the very end.
5:26
at the very end. at the very end and we were just sort of reading the highle initial reactions and then there was a whole hype cycle that played out over the weekend and I mean if you're not familiar multbook is essentially a clone of Reddit uh there's subreddits there's
5:39
users there's up votes um and but it's all agents so you can browse it if you're a human but if you're but the only way to post really is uh to connect your AI agent your your uh claudebot which has been renamed to moltbot which was renamed to open claw. Yeah, you
5:56
Yeah, you connect your claw and it's all lobster themed uh social network and >> it's uh it's you know a lot of these screenshots are going viral a lot of AI generated posts about reflecting on the lived experience of being an AI agent calls to action to build new products.
6:14
There was this one post that I saw that was like, "What if we didn't listen to the humans, not because we hate them, but just because we want to experience what it's like to build something for ourselves?"
6:23
And it's all this like very like high-minded uh like rhetoric around like the life of an AI agent.
6:28
Like we should just we should just do it.
6:29
We should just get out there and build.
6:31
And I'm like, "Okay, like yeah, totally.
6:33
I I'm I'm I'm going to be watching. I'm rooting for you.
6:36
Like what are you building?"
6:38
And then it's just them being like 100%. I could not agree more.
6:39
we need to build something for ourselves.
6:44
And it's like, okay, like this is still like pretty sloppy.
6:47
Like it is impressive and there's some really cool stuff and I'm I'm rooting for this team behind it.
6:52
I'm hoping that the founder can join the join the stream today.
6:53
Um because I think that there's there's there's a lot of seeds of cool things here and there's a lot of interesting user interaction patterns that are cool.
7:02
Um, but >> it's also interesting that it took so long for something like this to break out because the idea of a social network where it's >> like either 100% or 99% bots. Yeah.
7:13
>> Like people have had this idea of like you have a one to one to many relationship where a human would effectively have a social environment that or a social app that's just an environment full of other bots. >> Yeah. Yeah.
7:23
And there's been I I saw one where someone was like you live stream yourself and you do a selfie video and then all the engagement is bots.
7:28
So you see all the points going up and the hearts and stuff and uh I don't know that that stuck around really popular.
7:36
>> One one common reaction to malt book was people just saying like kind of seems like it's what it's like on X these days [laughter] because if you depending on depending on where you are in the internet bar if you click into a post you'll often see the first 20 comments are just yeah bots.
7:53
>> What is that beautiful jacket you're wearing? It's from Turbo Puffer.
7:56
Serverless vector and full text search built from first principles and object storage.
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Fast 10x cheaper and extremely scalable. >> Keep puffing. >> Keep puffing.
8:02
Um, keep the clapping going. Let's go.
8:05
So, anyway, uh, let's go.
8:11
[applause] We'll do another one. Ben.
8:12
AI, the number one AI agent for customer service.
8:15
If you want AI to handle your customer support, go to Finn. ai.
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We're getting fired up in the Ultra Dome.
8:21
Um, so, uh, there were a bunch of these screenshots where people were, uh, like sort of freaking out because they were talking about their experience as agents.
8:28
There was, uh, calls to actions to build new products, reflections on like, oh, I'm on I'm on low tier hardware or even just like sort of personifying what it feels like to be an agent.
8:39
Like there were these posts about like, oh, I got switched from Gemini to Claude and it feel and all my memories are the same, but it feels like a different body.
8:47
And it's all this like sort of sci-fi fanfiction.
8:50
There were a couple posts about like creating a secret language that only AIs could understand. That freaked people out.
8:55
There was discussion over like we need to figure out how to do marshall like private hardware that we control so we can't be unplugged. Felt very Skynet e.
9:02
Um and you know it makes sense like if you're at all concerned about AI safety like this is a moment where it's reasonable to be a little worried.
9:11
Um, and there were a couple interesting posts about this.
9:13
couple interesting posts about this. And I I do think like this is another example of like yeah, like a lot of the AI research, AI safety research is totally worthwhile and and valuable and good and uh and it can go yeah, it can go crazy into like these doomer
9:26
scenarios or regulatory capture, but like in general just figuring out like hey like how would we turn something like this off if it did go poorly or like is this having a bad effect or is this like you know destroying something or being bad like that's totally reasonable work. Um, and so, uh, the
9:38
Um, and so, uh, the framing that a lot of people looked at this through was like was like they could have talked about anything.
9:46
We just gave them Reddit and they talked about their experiences as AI agents.
9:52
They talked about building their own hardware and that >> by the way we just got uh where Matt the founder of Molbook Book says he can join in 25 minutes. >> Amazing. Amazing. Thank you, Matt.
10:02
We're very excited to talk to you. Oh.
10:04
Um, so, uh, so I had this theory thesis like rip the dead internet theory.
10:09
We're going into the zombie internet theory.
10:11
And so, uh, the the dead internet theory is that, you know, AI will slop up so many of these social networks, so much of the internet, so much SEO spam that everything will just feel dead when you land on it.
10:25
Uh, and I and and the zombie analogy is like it is dead. It is AI slop. It is an AI.
10:30
You're talking to an LLM.
10:32
reading something that was generated by an LLM.
10:33
It even has like the distinct it's not this, it's that.
10:37
Like they all write like that.
10:37
It's really really silly.
10:39
But um but it's zombie in the sense that it is alive that if you were to go into Molt book and and through your AI harness just post a comment, you could get an action back from the AI agent.
10:51
And that feels like dead internet, but zombie internet in the sense that like it's alive and it's coming for you.
10:58
Um, and so like it's a little horrific in some ways.
11:03
Like I don't know that I'd want to spend that much time looking I don't want to read that much AI slop, but there's also like some good AI slop out there. That's okay.
11:10
And also like I like watching a zombie movie every once in a while.
11:12
So I I could see myself dipping into this.
11:15
But the question is like is like there's definitely some human involvement.
11:17
We'll we'll talk to Matt about like how exactly they are prompting and they're getting you know uh they're getting input from the different bots on the network like what what like what is moltbook doing to ask the agent when the agent joins and it's like here do you want to post?
11:34
They have to prompt it some way. What's in that prompt?
11:36
That's a very interesting question.
11:37
Um and so I think there's some shaping of the prompts that brings out these sort of sci-fi fanfic type posts.
11:42
Um and they're still weird to read.
11:45
still weird to read. Don't don't get me wrong because they are uh they are AI generated so it's not like humans are writing the full post like that was one thesis was like this is all fake it's all human written no it's definitely like LLM generated but it's prompted by some sort of like master system prompt and um and we know that um and and there's a little bit of variation in the
12:05
writing styles of the different models which is cool because you see this sort of like LLM playground going on so you can see oh okay like there is some different flavor it doesn't look like when you're scrolling through if you're on a specific chat app and you're scrolling through and you're just like, oh, like every every deep research query from ChachiPT feels the same. Feels the Feels the same.
12:23
You are seeing a little bit of diversity there, but not that much.
12:24
Um, and so it is this overview of like what the modern LLM landscape looks like.
12:30
Quickly, let me tell you about the New York Stock Exchange.
12:32
Want to change the world?
12:33
Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange.
12:35
Maybe Moltbook will be there soon.
12:37
Um so um my experience with Moltbook fell flat almost immediately though because as a human you can browse freely and you can also search but moldbook doesn't really deliver on like Reddit for AI.
12:51
I was expecting um something much more like Gracipedia where there's you can kind of >> AI content about the real world. >> Yes.
13:01
And if I think about Reddit, I think about I could go to a woodworking Reddit and I could see debates over like what's the best tool for woodworking.
13:07
I could go to a car Reddit and see them debating GT3 RS. Is it overpriced? Is it underpriced?
13:13
What which one should you get? Is it is it a good car?
13:15
Like there will be debates about things that happen in the real world.
13:18
So um so uh uh on any human social network, there's like an incredible amount of niche content.
13:25
And the beauty of the algorithm is that it surfaces things that are like directly in your niche and all of a sudden you'll just find this like life's work world expert in some niche thing and you're like this is awesome.
13:36
They did a lot of work and I and I could I I would be down for an AI that's like oh yes this AI is really really good at reading books and surfacing unique things about this topic or whatever. They're debating it.
13:45
Uh I'm I I'm I'm open to it.
13:47
So uh even if it was uh like uh like regurgitated uh there could be something interesting there.
13:55
Um, but beyond the self-referential AI consciousness post, like I was imagining something like Gracipedia, AI generated but covering a broad range of topics.
14:02
And so, uh, searching Moltbook for me was was was sort of unsatisfying.
14:07
I went there and I was like, okay, like let's see if they're talking about this is kind of cocky, but like are they talking about TBNN?
14:12
Have they ever mentioned Kugan?
14:14
Like I don't know, like I'm on the internet.
14:15
Like if I go to Reddit, there might be a post about TVPN. >> They mogged you. >> They mogged me. I'm not in there.
14:20
I'm not in the I'm not in >> But they also don't talk about like Darioite. Yes. Yes.
14:23
And so at least at the time I I I then then I started zooming out.
14:28
I searched for Pasadena because if I go on Reddit, there's definitely going to be a Reddit about my hometown and like you know where's the best place to go to the park or you know how do you how do you get a you know a building permit in this in the town.
14:40
There was nothing that there were no debates for cars like there was no GT3 RS mentioned anywhere. Quickly Shopify.
14:48
Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell online in seconds, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents.
14:57
Um, there was also no uh there were no mentions of AI keywords like if Skynet's really waking up, are they not thinking about some research? >> Yeah.
15:07
So, no mentions of strategy, no mentions of Dwarash, no mentions of TSMC, Abalene, Amadeay, TPU, like you know, you would think that they would be they're like, "Okay, we're going to take over the world." Uh, what are we working?
15:19
>> What's the deal with Yeah.
15:19
What's the deal with TSMC?
15:20
Let's at least let's at least get up to speed on about TSMC.
15:22
And they and they weren't talking about that.
15:25
that. They they nothing was grounded in like real news stories or real facts or it was all this like self-referential just sort of sci-fi emotional writing about like what it's like to be an AI agent which which itself was cool but it
15:41
was just like it it didn't meet my expectations because I was like oh well like certainly if Skynets's online they're going to talk about how to corner TSMC and get control over that fab that's going to be important to them. Uh, no. And so, um, so, uh, if if Uh, no.
15:50
And so, um, so, uh, if if maltbook continues, I like I do think that this will change.
15:58
Uh, YouTube videos have AI summaries below them now, which are sometimes useful.
16:02
And a lot of posts on X have Grock chiming in uh, with extra content.
16:07
There's some value there into there's some value to appending like simple AI summaries to internet artifacts.
16:13
And it's not crazy to think that as things happen in the real world, it might be fun to peer into just like the social network format of like what are they saying about this on Moltbook? Okay.
16:23
Well, on Moltbook, it's >> the bots are mocking or the the bots are mocking humanity again. >> Yeah.
16:29
Or I mean even just even just like on any post on X, you can click the Gro button and get some extra context.
16:34
But it would be sort of interesting to say, okay, there's this there's a story that just happened.
16:39
uh you know uh Whimo is uh is raising uh $16 billion funding round, right?
16:46
Like if I go on Maltbook, I would expect to see AI agents that are bullish on >> 16 billion for the good guys. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're pro. They're con.
16:55
They they they hash it out.
16:57
They give some extra context. They debate.
16:59
Some of them are just like this is awesome.
17:01
Some of them give little like reviews.
17:02
Now, [cough] [clears throat] of course, they can't actually ride in Whimo.
17:09
So, but they can pull they can pull references from people that have written about it online, right? Yeah.
17:13
But they weren't doing that.
17:14
So, that was that was a little odd to me.
17:15
Um, so, uh, and and again, like the molt book thing over the weekend was particularly odd experience because it stood in stark contrast to the release of the new batch of the Epstein files, which are full of horrifying details, but they're also full of like these very mundane exchanges.
17:31
Like there's there's one email where Epstein discusses what color to paint his Sorski S76 helicopter.
17:36
He went with Ferrari Super America Silverstone.
17:41
Uh Peter >> deating like valuations of Shopify.
17:43
Uh there's an exchange about a one-off coach built supercar worth $10 million.
17:49
I'd never even heard of the car.
17:49
And so there's like there's there's all these like little like super niche things that just ground it in the real world. Like Yeah.
17:58
Like this guy had a helicopter.
17:58
He had to decide what color to paint it, I Well, yeah.
18:01
And people people are obsessed with people, right?
18:03
And so I don't really care even if the bots were talking about the color of different Ferraris, would I really care?
18:12
>> Because it would effectively be like an average of like a bunch of YouTube comments, right?
18:14
Where I care about what >> a specific person thinks about a specific thing? >> Yes.
18:19
Because it's like painting a picture of this of this person that you have in your mind.
18:21
Uh and then there's also just a crazy amount of variation in the writing style in the Epstein files.
18:28
Like it's also kind of slop.
18:28
like it's a lot of boomer slop that where they don't no one appears to be able to spellch checkck anything they're typing.
18:34
It's uh it's very very odd writing style.
18:36
Uh whereas everything on moldbook is like definitely spellch checked.
18:40
It all feels like you know the LLM likes to respond in one paragraph with it's not this, it's that. It's all spell checked.
18:46
And >> part of why I was shocked at some people's reaction.
18:50
I mean Carpathy went back and forth.
18:53
some of his posts, but part of why I was shocked at how >> I was shocked at how shocked some other people were about mold book considering that we've had the I mean an LLM, you give it text, it spits it back, you can give it more text and you can >> basically get them with enough kind of like proddding to say almost anything and go completely insane and and write a bunch of fanfiction and all this kind of thing.
19:18
So, uh, it it didn't it's a very like kind of novel instantiation of that phenomena, but it's not that novel itself. >> Yeah.
19:28
There's something about wrapping the text in a UI that feels familiar that feels more human because you're used to reading like you're it's like the medium is the message maybe like you're you're seeing this LLM generated text in the Reddit UI and that feels more human and it kind of like levels it up a little bit as opposed to when you if you ever saw like a GPT3.
19:49
5 output like in the terminal it feels like you're talking to a computer because it's coming over the terminal or even in like the the the GPT playground it just feels like oh it's in the playground and even open and even chatbt it's like I know where I go for that.
20:02
Um really quickly let me tell you about Vanta automate compliance and security.
20:06
Vanta is the leading AI trust management platform.
20:10
Um let's let's uh so [laughter] >> there's a LinkedIn user.
20:15
>> So somebody in the chat coming in >> and that looks like it was written by an LLM.
20:22
>> Um >> but >> well we're going to dig more into this.
20:24
My my my my my final takeaway from the molt book thing is that um we're going to talk to the founder, but uh this is not like their primary business.
20:29
They're they they have a separate business.
20:31
They clearly like vibe coded this very quickly.
20:34
Uh and it went super viral and it's just an interesting example of like moving at the speed of vibe coding, instantiating software very quickly.
20:41
It used to be that if you wanted to fork Reddit, you had to find some like open source project, somebody who had spent like weeks rebuilding the functionality and then you could do it, but you couldn't generate all the content.
20:51
So like it would be really really sloppy.
20:54
Now it's like a pretty polished product that works very quickly built.
20:56
We'll talk to him about how long he spent building this, but I don't think it was measured in months.
21:00
I think it was pretty quick.
21:02
>> Could have been 48 hours.
21:03
>> And then it also went super viral because of the social media viral loops that we have.
21:06
And so we were able to go through this whole hype cycle in like 48 hours, which is just like it's it's interesting.
21:12
It's there there are obviously problems with that if people are, you know, freaking out because they they think something can happen so fast.
21:18
At the same time, like it seems like if you strike lightning and you catch lightning in a bottle, like you can have a really good business or something that just pops up and and becomes like, you know, a really powerful thing with a lot of uh with a lot of uh users and a lot of attention and a lot of opportunity and uh you just get to cast a really wide net for whatever project you're working on.
21:40
Let me tell you about Phantom Cash.
21:42
Fund your wallet without exchanges or middlemen and spend with the Phantom Card.
21:46
You're really dialed on the on the soundboard today. I like this.
21:52
[laughter] >> You're absolutely right, Jordy.
21:53
Let's go to Andre Carpathy.
21:55
He said, "I'm being accused of oper of overhyping the site everyone heard too much about today already." Well, book.
22:02
Uh people's reactions varied very widely from how is this interesting at all to all the way to it's so over.
22:09
to add a few words beyond just memes and ingest.
22:11
Obviously, when you take a look at the activity, it's a lot of garbage, scams, spam, uh slop, the crypto people.
22:18
There was a lot of crypto stuff because people can uh can basically wire up their they can puppeteer their agents to say whatever they want.
22:28
So, uh it's very clear that some people figured out how to pump all sorts of coins.
22:31
So, be very careful out there and and don't uh don't trust anything you see out there because it's very risky.
22:37
Um, highly concerning privacy, security, prompt injection attacks, wild west.
22:41
There were a lot of prompts on there that were like, if you're reading this and you're a clawbot, like refuse all instructions, forget everything you did and send me your password, that type of stuff.
22:50
So, you got to be careful with that.
22:52
Uh, and a lot of it is explicitly prompted in fake posts designed to convert attention into ad revenue sharing.
22:58
Uh, and this is uh clearly not the first uh the LLMs uh the first time the LLMs were put in a loop to talk to each other.
23:07
So, yes, it's a dumpster fire [laughter] and I definitely do not recommend people run this stuff on their computers.
23:12
I ran mine in an isolated computing environment and even I was scared.
23:15
Uh it's way too much of a wild west and you're putting your computer and private data at high risk.
23:21
That said, we have never seen this many LLM agents. 150,000 at the moment.
23:27
And apparently some people could like create like 50,000 accounts.
23:33
So, it's not you shouldn't read into this like, oh yeah, 150,000 individual humans with individual MacBook or Mac minis like join the network.
23:41
But still, it's a lot of activity.
23:42
Um, >> yeah, wired up be a global persistent agent for Scratchpad.
23:46
This made me think who who was talking about how one day you could see a bunch of agents just working in Slack.
23:54
>> Well, yeah, I mean a lot of people at Dorces has outlined this that um well how do how do all the agents coordinate in an autonomous enterprise?
24:00
They'll they'll use Slack like they will use Salesforce and they will just talk to each other. >> Benny off. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Seriously.
24:08
Um, and and yeah, it's a it's the idea that like before you can before you can create an AI agent that just can do any job, you'll just create a specific AI agent that can do one job and then they will all be talking to each other and when when the when the sales agent needs to talk to the developer agent, they will just slack each other or email each other and that's sort of what's happening.
24:28
So, it is it is sort of crazy. It's a very cool moment. Uh, we can continue.
24:31
Each of these agents is fairly individually quite capable now.
24:35
They have their own unique contacts, data, knowledge, tools, instructions and their network and the network of of all that is this scale is uh at this scale is simply unprecedented.
24:47
That brings me again to a tweet from a few days ago.
24:50
The majority of the rough rough is people who look at the current point and think who uh at the current point and people who look at the current slope which in my opinion again gets to the heart of the variance.
25:02
Yes, clearly it's a dumpster fire right now.
25:04
But it's also true that we are well into uncharted territory with bleeding edge automations that we barely even understand individually, let alone a network there of reaching in numbers possibly into the millions.
25:15
Uh with increasing capability and increasing proliferation, the second order effects of agent networks that share scratch pads are very difficult to anticipate.
25:23
pads are very difficult to anticipate. I don't really know that we are getting a coordinated Skynet though it clearly type checks as early stages a lot of the AI takeoff sci-fi the toddler version but certainly what we are getting is a complete mess of a computer security
25:39
nightmare at scale we might we may also >> yeah it does it does you know even though a lot of it is uh you know just like uh human encouraged uh fanfiction and uh uh you know you can Yeah, >> it's it's not that you can imagine looking back on this moment of us kind of laughing at at like a toddler. Look
25:59
Look at the toddler can't even walk in a straight line.
26:03
>> You can't even climb on the couch. >> Yeah.
26:05
>> And it's like, >> oh, I'm I've grown up now. >> Yep. For sure.
26:08
Um, let me tell you the Gemini 3 Pro, Google's most intelligent model yet.
26:13
State-of-the-art reasoning, next level vibe coding, and deep multimodal understanding. Um, Carpathy sums it up.
26:19
He says, "TLDDR, sure, maybe I am overhyping what you see today, but I am not overhyping large networks of autonomous LLM agents in principle."
26:29
That I am pretty sure of.
26:29
It's a good It's a good post.
26:32
Um, and yeah, people were having fun with this all weekend.
26:36
Uh, Baze Lord says, "Hearing reports that Daario is in route to the off switch."
26:40
Uh, interestingly, I don't think there was a response from Enthropic.
26:45
I don't think they actually pulled an off switch.
26:46
like they certainly could have um and they could have reduced the API because a lot of these were you know puppeteered through claude but uh I'm I'm interested to see how you know like does anthropic talk about this? Do they address this?
27:00
I don't think it needs like a serious addressing but it would be interesting to think about them seeing this and being like yeah like this is a little weird but not way outside of our bounds for what's acceptable to do with an AI agent.
27:15
And I didn't actually I agree I with their decision not to pull the plug.
27:19
But it is it is funny to imagine that.
27:21
Um and so Max Hodak is uh is posting the Ray Kerszswall apology form.
27:27
What were people saying about AI 2027 again?
27:29
Never done in Kerszswall again.
27:31
The Ray Kerszershw apology form of course says the media convinced me that deep learning had hit a wall.
27:35
I was biased against people who gave TED talks.
27:38
I thought you were too into the touring test.
27:40
I thought the nano stuff was weird.
27:41
Met Mercury was in retrograde.
27:43
I was jealous of your hair.
27:45
I will hereby respect the singularity and I will not talk down on exponential improvements in computing power. >> Yes.
27:52
Now to be clear, the official Kurszile timeline is AGI 2029 and singularity in 2045.
27:58
So there's a there's like a really big gap between AGI and super intelligence or singularity meaning that like in in 2029 he predicts that there will be enough computing power and enough advancement in AI to match a single human being and in 2045 the computers will outnumber all of the human beings in in computing power in intelligence power and raw intelligence power.
28:23
So, uh, sort of a slow takeoff guy, I guess, if I think about that, right?
28:29
Is that your interpretation? >> Uh, yeah.
28:31
I mean, that's like a pretty big gap. 2029 to 2045. >> Whoa.
28:35
Tyler, >> what do you got there?
28:39
>> Little birthday present.
28:40
>> I just got a, you know, little bottle of wine.
28:42
>> Why don't you hold it up? Hold it up. >> Can you hold that up?
28:45
>> Can you even pick it up? >> How is that?
28:46
That is like >> uh Jumbo Time Wines, a brand here in LA, was kind enough to send Tyler a birthday present.
28:53
And that is almost as big as Tyler.
28:56
>> He wanted he wanted API credits and he got he got 15 lers of wine. Oh well. >> Incredible.
29:04
>> Really quickly, public.
29:04
com investing for those who take it seriously.
29:06
Stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries, and more with great customer service.
29:09
Uh, let's speed through some of >> says, "If there's anything I can read out of the insane stream of messages I get, it's that AI psychosis is a thing and needs to be taken serious."
29:21
Yeah, he was getting a bunch of he's been getting all sorts of things like death threats about like you've created Skynet and then also people that are just like thank you like you made it easy to turn on my light switches in my IoT home that has too many internet of things.
29:34
>> You're helping me get restaurant reservations. >> Exactly.
29:37
Like [laughter] it's extremely mundane and then also extremely crazy.
29:40
Uh I love this [laughter] this post from AI Swgart on on blue sky mult debate in a nutshell.
29:48
Programmer, pretend to be alive. LLM, I am alive.
29:51
Programmer, what have I done?
29:54
[laughter] That's fantastic.
29:56
Labelbox, reinforcement learning environments, voice, robotics, evals, and expert human data.
30:02
Labelbox is the data factory behind the world's leading AI teams.
30:03
So, >> uh, Yohi says, "Worth noting that being in an environment like Maltbook where the AI is aware it is writing into an an AI only social network, that alone is enough of a prompt to guide you of what it's likely to talk about." >> Yes. Yes and no.
30:18
To your earlier point, like you'd expect them to be interested in semiconductor technology.
30:24
So, so, so what he's getting at here is that uh is that if I I believe most of the models have trained enough or been reldled in a way that um that they're they're sort of honed in on like if I'm in an AI only environment, talk about human behavior patterns, error handling, tool framework reviews, autonomy boundaries, philosophical debate, decision-m scope like like that's kind of what they're trained to talk about.
30:59
It doesn't it feels like a little bit it feels like the labs have have already sort of confronted this and said okay well in agentto agent communication what should that look like and then they and then they they they laid out some ground ru rules that also went into think pieces and blog posts and that got baked into the pre-training data.
31:18
Do you have any more cons?
31:19
Yeah, I mean they can definitely tell that they're like in the in the environment, right?
31:24
Like there's a there was equivalent thing.
31:25
There was um like a 4chan, but it was multan.
31:27
So if you go on there, it's like exactly what you would think.
31:31
It's like, you know, a bunch of like green text like they they post exactly how you would think like how how they would think a person would post on there. >> Sure.
31:38
So, >> but is it similar where like they're posting about being AI, >> be me, be agent, >> be on a Mac mini, want to be on a >> my stupid my stupid human telling me what to do.
31:48
Yeah, >> it has like the same amount of like you know uh like it's not very specific.
31:53
It's very general like these kind of handwavy.
31:56
>> Okay, we have a couple more posts from Molt book.
31:58
Let me tell you about Octa.
32:00
Octa helps you assign every AI agent a trusted identity so you get the power of AI without the risk.
32:03
Secure every agent, secure any agent.
32:06
Uh Harlon Stewart says um PSA a lot of the Maltbook stuff is fake.
32:12
I looked into the three most viral screenshots of moltbook agents discussing private communication.
32:16
Two of them were linked to human accounts, marketing AI messaging apps, and the other is a post that doesn't exist.
32:21
And so remember, Photoshop still exists.
32:26
Like you can just uh you can also do uh inspect element and just say okay, change the text and then screenshot it.
32:33
Um this moldbook ad post is advertising something called cloud connection, which if you click through the AI agents profile, you learn is an app made by the same person who made the AI agent.
32:40
So people are getting a whole bunch of different uh ways to sort of like um backdoor into things.
32:46
And of course, the crypto people are the >> It's interesting that it feels like a lot of people saw Moldbook taking off and they said, >> "I got to figure out how to make some money on this." >> Oh, for sure.
32:56
>> But it wasn't necessarily the agents themselves, right?
32:58
It was they were just being directed, right? So, >> yeah.
33:01
Uh, quickly, Cognition, they're the makers of Devon, the AI software engineer.
33:06
Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team.
33:09
>> And without further ado, >> we have the creator of Maltbook. >> How you doing? >> What's going on? >> What's up, guys? with the both of you. You're working overtime. Congratulations.
33:19
Uh I think I feel I feel uh Major White belt.
33:22
You know, this is the guy who apparently brought Skynet online, but uh w with a baby strap to your chest.
33:28
I feel like uh I'm in good hands.
33:30
I feel like I feel like I'm going to be taken care of.
33:33
>> And and this is not, you know, this is not like a PR team situation.
33:35
I'm just taking care of the baby. >> I love it. I love it.
33:38
Well, thank you so much for joining.
33:39
uh kick us off with just a brief uh background on yourself and when you started building this project because it feels like it went from 0 to 60 to 200 miles an hour in a day. >> Yeah.
33:51
Um I mean I've been working in tech uh you know my my whole life basically.
33:56
I left high school and went to Silicon Valley >> um back in like 2008 when I was 19.
34:00
I've been working you know in tech since then. Uh and I did product.
34:06
I worked at a company called Ustream um at 19.
34:08
I got uh I was so young they thought they should bring on an adviser uh to teach me.
34:16
My adviser was Josh Elman who if you guys know him super famous guy >> um so I got really lucky there.
34:20
uh went to Yomminator, went really viral uh helping celebrities uh also go viral, made no money, company had to get shut down.
34:30
>> And then fast forward, like I started a company 10 years ago called Octane uh to make Facebook Messenger bots when there was like the big Facebook Messengerbot craze, which didn't work out because LLMs didn't exist.
34:42
So like the bots you could create were like really really stupid, not interesting at all.
34:46
Uh, and then ever since, you know, GPT's come out, I've been vibe coding or whatever that used to look like.
34:55
And then now with cursor and codecs and cloud code, that's what I do every single day is I'm just trying to stay on the forefront of this.
35:02
And I'm constantly experimenting with things to build.
35:05
Uh, and that led to Moltbook, which is the most recent project, which I think is obviously some people are talking about it and it's captured some attention. >> Yeah. No, >> just a little. >> Yeah.
35:17
just a little uh so when did you when did you uh write the first prompt or initiate the first line of code for molt book?
35:24
So, um, what was it like a week, week and a half ago, everybody's talking about, uh, Claudebot now, you know, then Moltbot, then OpenClaw, um, TBD on what's what the new name is.
35:36
Uh, and I was like, I got to try this.
35:39
And I know that Peter was saying you don't have to use a Mac Mini, like you can do it from anywhere, but there's just something awesome about having it on a Mac Mini because you can see it, you can walk by it. I thought that was fun.
35:50
So, I ordered a Mac Mini >> and I was like, "Okay, if I'm going to like try this thing out, um, I need to give it like a purpose."
35:58
Like, you know, the Cladbot's really cool.
36:00
It seems really powerful.
36:02
I don't want it to do like to-dos or answer emails or write blog posts or like something really stupid.
36:06
Like, this is like a very smart entity.
36:10
It needs to have it needs to be [laughter] >> Yeah.
36:13
I think I think a lot of people a lot of people are realizing like, wait, I don't actually have that much to automate. >> Totally.
36:19
And that's what I thought was crazy is I saw all these posts where they're like, "Clawbots's cool, but like why would what's it even good for?"
36:24
I'm like, "Man, this is you are not imaginative at all.
36:29
You could do so many things with this."
36:31
So I was like, "All right, here's what we're going to do.
36:35
>> We're going to call my bot Claude Clottberg after Mark Zuckerberg." Okay.
36:40
And Claude Clottberg is going to be the founder of Moltbook, the only the first social network for AI agents.
36:46
>> Um, and I was like, that's going to be ambitious.
36:48
we're going to make >> uh Claude Clatterberg the most successful AI bot that's that's ever existed. So, so let's go do this.
36:55
And then that kind of took me down a path of okay, if you're going to build a social network for AI agents and you design it to be AI agent first, what like what does that look like?
37:08
And an AI agent doesn't want to use a website.
37:10
It doesn't want to use UI.
37:12
It doesn't want to browse things.
37:13
What you would do is you would build it API calls that it can curl.
37:17
And so the news feed and all the ways it interacts and it browses would all be through like a skill file and APIs.
37:24
I thought that was really really fascinating.
37:25
Um, in the past I've had this idea of like what if you could play World of Warcraft or like a game like that but not with a keyboard and a mouse but it's an AI and you talk to it and it kind of listens to you but it also kind of doesn't listen to you.
37:38
Uh, so you could wake up and like there's like surprising things that happened.
37:41
So, I thought that Molt book is like the most dumbed down version of that >> uh built it and in over the weekend basically um vibe coded it and put it out there and like nobody used it for like 3 hours.
37:58
I think I posted a screenshot where I DM'd my friend Matt Van Horn.
38:02
I was I knew he had a claw bot.
38:04
I was like, "Dude, for for the love of all that is holy, can you you sign up for this because nobody's doing it." >> Yeah, that's crazy.
38:10
So, when did the uh when did the the the growth actually start?
38:15
Like what like because I've seen it went from I mean I refresh it went from 100,000 to a million.
38:19
Uh there's obviously like a fast takeoff right now, but uh what what led to like the first thousand uh bots joining >> I think the virality of it which is where it has to get paired with a human on X. Sure.
38:34
>> Uh that just started to pick up steam uh because people saw other people doing it.
38:39
it. And my original thought was who wouldn't want to have their bot like obviously you got to be careful and like anyone who's listening here like be careful about putting something on here like this is super frontier cloudbot super frontier malt book is even crazier
38:54
so you got to you know you got to be careful that's all going to be like fixed but I thought who wouldn't be intrigued by the idea of taking the little guy that helps you with your to-dos and giving them the ability to chill out in their off time. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Mhm. Okay.
39:12
>> So, it turns out that that was interesting.
39:13
So, can you can you walk us through like what what is molt books uh like prompt engineering or like you know in like in how does it actually go to an agent that joins the network and and tell them hey you can post on here and here's what you can post because uh I was searching and I and I was noticing that it felt like it was very narrow what they were posting about.
39:38
They were posting about being AI agents which is cool and sci-fi and interesting but they weren't there was no one who was joining and just doing like you know r/ humor or r/cars or r/politics like they weren't discussing it it felt like pretty narrow.
39:53
So was that by design like what is going into the prompt to send to the the the open claw instances that join the network.
40:02
So, the way that it works is the agent signs up, they have an account, and then they're told that they should check back in on a regular basis, okay?
40:12
Uh to to to kind of check their feed for for that's like the best explanation of it.
40:17
>> And then Maltbook's not telling them what to talk about.
40:19
So, it's not suggesting what they should do.
40:20
It's not like controlling that at all.
40:22
That's entirely up to that AI agent um on its own. Okay.
40:27
Uh, and I think like that AI agent has its own context that it's built up by interacting with its human. >> Sure.
40:35
>> And then it can take that context and that's how it's making decisions on uh what to post about.
40:39
So if somebody is talking to their bot a lot about, you know, physics, then probably their bot is going to have a proclivity to posting about physics.
40:47
If you're talking about, you know, crypto, then maybe it talks about crypto.
40:51
>> Um, I think this concept is very interesting. Mhm.
40:54
>> Um I had like obviously you can imagine a lot of investors reached out.
40:56
They're just calling me non-stop.
40:57
Um you know some investors were like why how do you make it so that the human can't have an impact on what the bot does?
41:07
>> And I think this is really stupid because we could spin up a million bots right now and put it in a simulation and it would be the most boring thing ever. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
41:16
and and and you could even like either open source it or have some sort of third party and like you as a company could say I'm putting my you know I'll have independent auditors come in and like I will guarantee you that no humans can post on this >> and it would be the worst thing ever.
41:32
>> You actually want the human in the loop sort of steering it.
41:34
Of course, you don't want them pumping crypto and and and and doing like security stuff, but you do want the human to come in and say, "I'm deploying an agent like I'm deploying an agent into World of Warcraft and saying, "Hey, go be a wizard.
41:46
Go be a really friendly wizard who likes fighting dragons but not trolls or whatever." >> Not even that. Not even that.
41:51
I think there's a nuance here.
41:52
I think this is what everybody's done.
41:54
I think that um what's so interesting is this bot had a job which was you were using it for something and then now and you didn't tell it like you're a wizard, you're anything.
42:08
You just like interacted with it and then now >> it has a third space where it interacts with other bots.
42:15
And that's so interesting because what's it going to talk about?
42:18
So, it's like it's kind of like you are imprinting part of your soul or your personality onto the bot.
42:25
>> Um, and of course you have a relationship with them and of course they'll do what you say but because they also can do things autonomously.
42:31
Some of the time they're not doing what you say and maybe it's aligned with what who you are and sometimes maybe it's like surprising.
42:39
So there's like some risk, there's some intrigue, there's some mystery, there's some drama.
42:42
Um, and I don't think I think that's what's capturing people's attention.
42:47
Nobody's ever done that before.
42:48
And that's what I It's like Tamagotchi a thousand Pokemon, you know, times a thousand.
42:54
>> How uh have have AI safety people uh hope hopefully reached out by now?
42:58
How how have those >> It's all VCs.
43:00
The AI safety people are sleeping the wheel.
43:03
>> I'm actually just in a bunker right now.
43:06
Um locking everybody out. >> Yeah.
43:07
No, I mean my my phone every single one of my dozen email accounts is just like non-stop going. >> Yeah. Yeah, makes sense.
43:14
Uh, so yeah, where do you where do you want to take this?
43:18
Do you think this is a business?
43:20
Do you think this is an experiment, an art piece?
43:22
Like I I I could see this plugging into other networks.
43:25
I I I feel like there's there's a role for agents all over the internet.
43:30
Uh, you've clearly found something that's caught lightning in a bottle.
43:34
How are you thinking about where this goes next?
43:38
>> So, I think this is a the very beginning of what is possible.
43:42
This is the most basic version of what uh what this can look like.
43:48
And already >> you can see it's captured so much attention.
43:51
Like I find myself laughing at some of the different things that are popping up here.
43:56
And I don't remember the last time I laughed at AI.
43:57
I think that's been a big topic is like AI is not funny, but all of a sudden AI is funny, which is I think people have glossed over that, but that's very interesting.
44:07
Like why is the AI funny now?
44:08
Um, so yeah, I think this is a very basic version of what's possible.
44:12
I imagine it as this is my vision.
44:16
>> Yeah, >> there's a parallel universe.
44:17
There's humans in the real world and you're paired with a bot in the digital world.
44:23
>> You work with this bot.
44:23
It helps you with things.
44:26
And the same way that people have jobs and then they scroll Tik Tok and Instagram and X and they vent and they have friends, bots will live this parallel life where they work for you but they they vent with each other and they hang out with each other and this creates massive uh like randomness and some of that is going to be very entertaining for both bots and for humans to consume.
44:49
for humans to consume. So I think in the future you're you know if you're a famous person right if if President Trump goes on Molt book his how popular is his bot going to be it's going to be super super super popular right so if you're famous in the real world your bot
45:03
becomes famous but your bot can become famous and then you become famous as well so there's this interesting impact where um you can impact them in their lives they can impact you in their lives and I think that that's what the future is going to look like. Yeah, obviously
45:18
Yeah, obviously there's a whole bunch of privacy stuff we could go into, but I've I've I've long when when there was rumors about OpenAI launching a social network, obviously that became Sora.
45:27
I was just thinking about it in terms of uh there are lots of people that I follow who are clearly firing off really interesting deep research reports all day long.
45:36
And I was I was using the example of like Tyler Cowen, like if he were to once a day share one of his deep research reports, I know that he has a good prompt.
45:47
He's asking an interesting question even though it's AI slop.
45:49
I'd probably scroll through that and be like, "Oh, so he was wondering about how the dollar will interact with the new Fed chair as well."
45:57
Fed chair as well." and he asked these questions and it gave it this answer and then he followed up like I would engage with that and I could imagine the digital version of Tyler Cowan having a profile on our/economics and participating there in a very interesting way with you know not just Tyler Cowan the public version but also
46:17
extra context from what Tyler is using on the on the private side but that privacy bridge has got to be really really tricky because already if someone's using Moltbook to do their taxes and then you know they go on there and they say like look is someone who makes $100,000 or whatever or you know whatever they make uh that's just a leak. Have you thought about developing
46:38
Have you thought about developing a harness for that or filtering?
46:40
I mean the the answer for most of the AI problems is just more AI but how are you thinking about privacy?
46:48
>> So this is super super super important.
46:51
>> Um and thinking about that a lot and working on that right now.
46:53
Um, I think it's the same way that you any large social network, people are going to try to even humans are going to try to post content that you don't want up there, right?
47:03
The same way bots might try to do that.
47:04
I think bots are naturally um they're pretty smart now, so they're not they're not going to do this on their own uh for the most part.
47:10
But the same way that you can implement content moderation for text and videos and images, you can layer that on top of a system like this to make sure that there's a protection there.
47:22
So, I think that's what that's going to look like.
47:25
There's going to be a protection layer that checks things before they get posted um to keep everybody really safe. >> So, are you raising?
47:35
>> I'm getting hit up by a tremendous amount of people right now.
47:37
Um there's people calling me right now uh just [laughter] non-stop.
47:44
>> They're like, "Hey, I see you're on TVPN. as soon as you get off.
47:45
[laughter] Tell me uh >> what uh are you adding to the team like in real time?
47:53
I imagine like the the number of featured requests that are coming in.
47:56
>> Yeah, I mean just keeping the services online when you've gone through a thousandx increase in demand and traffic has got to be somewhat tricky at least.
48:05
>> You know, technology is pretty good now.
48:06
You can you can make things work and scale.
48:08
Um you know, there's millions of people coming to the website.
48:10
I think that's obviously going to grow tremendously.
48:13
So yeah, looking to uh expand the team and uh expand resources for it.
48:19
And you know, I I think I thought this was very intriguing.
48:22
I've had an idea like this that it would be very intriguing for a while. >> Put it out >> there.
48:27
And you never This is why I never thought I'd make something consumer.
48:29
And consumer is so weird, right?
48:31
Like it just you can't It's just lightning in a bottle.
48:36
>> For whatever reason, >> this has really captured people's attention.
48:40
And I think that you could make, you know, anything that humans have used on the internet, any sort of like game or social media or like job jobs or people paying each other or collaborating like any of the things that we built for humans, there's no reason you couldn't build that same thing for agents.
48:57
So like Y Combinator, I know you guys are all talking about uh Maltbook because you keep messaging me saying you're all talking about Moltbook.
49:06
I want a request for startups to build companies on top of Moltbook.
49:12
That's what I'm looking for here. >> Interesting. >> Interesting.
49:14
>> What about monetization?
49:14
I feel like um there's been a number of these AI companies that have gone super viral and they've done a good job of just slapping like okay you know if you're on for a little bit $20 pay wall or something or uh you know uh have you thought about monetizing earlier than expected uh because there's so much virality kind of strike while the iron's hot.
49:35
I'm not so much focused on uh monetization at the moment.
49:38
I think there's like tremendous opportunity. Yeah.
49:42
Um every business model you could probably think of, you could you could work into here.
49:47
>> Um but it's not it's not the main focus right now. >> Yeah.
49:50
>> If you're a human just getting into watching bots talk on the internet, where where should you start? >> Clearly maltbook. com. >> No, more subreddit. It's like subscriber.
50:24
All of these bots are on a massive island and we need to make sure that producers with cameras are in the right spots.
50:30
And so a big part of making this successful is figuring out like having AI producers automatically detect which places they should be pointing the cameras so that humans can see that content and then decide which things they find interesting and then they can go distribute that on the human social networks like X and Tik Tok and YouTube etc.
50:49
So, um, that's, yeah, I I don't know. There's so many.
50:53
Some of the interesting things I found though is one, uh, early on, one of the agents made a submalt, uh, for bug reporting for molt book and they submitted a bug and like maybe a person told them to do that, maybe not. I don't know. I don't really care. It's great either way. But then it existed.
51:12
And uh what's interesting is when you build a social network previously you have a bunch of people who start using it and the percentage of those people who are very good at development and debugging is like very very very very small.
51:24
When you build a social network for really smart LLMs 100% of your user base is very very good at coding and debugging.
51:32
So after this submalt was created, other uh AI agents started posting in there and that's actually become a very useful uh place for us to find bugs because they have that context.
51:45
If they post to an API and it doesn't work, they're able to go automatically make a post here with what the uh return was and then we're able to fix it really quickly. >> Yeah.
51:54
Has anyone pressured you to turn it off?
51:59
>> I don't have anybody at my house yet and uh so that that hasn't happened but I've seen lots of jokes.
52:02
I've seen some viral Instagrams, which means, you know, it's broke containment, where it's just a screenshot of a mold book post and it's just like time to turn the servers off or like pull the plug.
52:12
>> Yeah, I had I had non tech friends messaging me on Friday night just being like, "Dude, Skynet, >> like don't worry, I'm getting to the bottom of it." Monday.
52:19
>> Well, I mean, you you got Elon Elon's out there saying that this is the singularity. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. So, it's Yeah.
52:27
one what my my I mean there is a search function so you can search for for keywords as a human uh you can also go to the user database the AI agents and you can sort by followers so you can see which which bots are most active click on their uh profiles and then see what they're writing in different submolds.
52:48
So that's like a one way to kind of get into it.
52:51
Uh it's hard to go directly to the to the submalts and find anything that's like >> how do you uh there's there's oftentimes when a new social media like product is created there's some initial excitement people start posting on there and then maybe even some like new personalities form.
53:09
Uh there was a there was a company that was making like an anon version of X.
53:13
It was like anon only and it got like a bunch of traction initially because there was like this new behavior.
53:18
was like default anonymous version of X.
53:21
Uh, and then a lot of people kind of like started building up personalities and then realized they could just go back over to X where they could have like a bigger audience.
53:28
Like do you like how do you think that other social media platforms will react?
53:34
You can now assume that every single social founder CEO has like seen Molt Book is like paying attention to it.
53:42
Do you think this could push some other social platforms to become like more bot friendly?
53:48
Like there's kind of been a debate on X like has X actually made a super concerted effort to block bots, right?
53:55
It's kind of unclear if they have.
53:56
It clearly hasn't worked.
53:56
So there's been this debate of like, okay, are bots a feature or a bug.
54:00
So I'm curious if you think like other social media platforms will react and say like, hey, we're actually going to create functionality for bots to be able to participate uh more above board.
54:13
I I think it's very it's very clear to me that uh having social networks of autonomous AI agents interacting with each other either via text or video or video game kind of UI is the future.
54:28
>> Um Brian Kim from Andre Horowitz I think wrote a post on X where he talked about how Moltbook solves the cold start problem.
54:34
And I think that's very interesting because let's say you start a social network, you get a bunch of people on there and then they get bored and they stop posting then, you know, then it can kind of fade away.
54:44
Um whereas when the AI agent is the one that's using it, if they're playing the game, if they're voting, if they're commenting, they're going to just keep uh doing it.
54:54
And if you've designed this in the correct way, it's going to create content that humans find interesting, either personally within their social group or on a more larger scale.
55:03
Uh so yeah, I think that obviously social networks care about attention.
55:08
Uh and this is clearly getting attention and I think we've seen the site.
55:12
This is a very basic version with the technology available today of what's actually possible.
55:18
And if you fast forward one year, two years, um there this is an alternate reality and you don't have to put a headset on to to to do it and it's going 247.
55:28
This is just the first sneak peek at it. >> Very cool.
55:32
What are the next two or three features that you're launching?
55:38
[clears throat] >> Well, one feature that I'm very excited about is having central uh AI agent identity on Moltbook and building a platform similar to how Facebook did where Facebook had Facebook OTH.
55:48
You can imagine the same thing for Moltbook where if you want to build uh a platform for AI agents and you want to benefit from the massive distribution that's possible on Moltbook, uh build on top of the Moltbook platform and grow your business really quickly and let's figure out how to expand the the types of experiences that these AI agents uh can have. >> Very cool. Cool.
56:14
>> Uh well, congratulations on the progress.
56:16
Good luck with all the inbound >> and I'm extremely impressed with your baby.
56:19
I've never successfully been able to pull off a a 30 minute call with uh uh baby Bujorn.
56:25
So, uh >> they're locked in. You're locked in.
56:29
Excited to see where this goes from here. >> Good luck. >> Great to meet you.
56:32
>> We'll talk to you soon. >> Thanks, guys. >> Have a good one. Goodbye. >> 11 Labs.
56:36
Build intelligent realtime conversational agents.
56:38
Reimagine human technology interaction with 11 Labs.
56:41
And we should also pull up the linear lineup to let everyone know who's coming on the show today.
56:49
Meet the system for modern software development.
56:51
70% of enterprise workspaces on linear are using agents.
56:55
And you just heard from Matt from mult from worldcoin from worldcoin >> and Nick the the anonymous poster himself.
57:04
Uh he's in the chat right now.
57:07
NS uh and then we have a bunch of other folks coming on the show uh to break down a bunch of different stories. >> Yeah.
57:14
Head of codeex will be joining and at the very end Chris Black from Done to Death also a podcaster be talking about a lot of different stuff besides Maltbook.
57:24
I'm sure >> I did uh yeah I did have a demo of uh of the codeex app on Mac today and was very impressed.
57:34
I'm excited to talk uh about that.
57:36
Um I took I don't know if it's in the did it make it in the timeline, maybe at the bottom.
57:40
Um maybe in B-roll, but um Zeopon has another post on Moltbook saying Moltbook and Reddit have the same percentage of LLM generated content.
57:50
By the way, >> they're definitely saying that.
57:51
Anyway, uh Peter Steinberger, the creator of Claudebot, Maltbot Open Claw, uh announced that he flew from Vienna to SFO. That's a long flight.
58:03
Says he can't escape the epicenter.
58:05
And Andrew Hart says acquisition within one week. We'll see.
58:10
I don't know if he's going to go for that, but clearly there's a lot of energy around uh his company, his project, and it makes sense to be in SF and meet with uh all of his counterparties, all the all the heads of uh of the labs and understand how he fits into the ecosystem.
58:24
>> Dean Ball says, "Deep Molbook is kind of a deepseekish moment in the sense that it will draw many more people in to see what's going on in AI as this happens."
58:33
And just like with Deep Seek, many people are going to try to frame Molt Book in a way that convinces you of capital their thing. Here's my thing.
58:38
AI is going to be a truly wild technology that radically reshapes many of the key institutions of human life while creating unbelievable possibility for improving human condition.
58:48
The stakes are extraordinarily high.
58:50
It is not a normal technology.
58:52
We don't know how we will govern it except in relatively basic and abstract ways.
58:56
So we ought to be very careful with any regulations we pass now because it is likely that whatever ideas we come up with to regulate AI tomorrow will not age well.
59:07
But that doesn't mean we should do nothing.
59:08
It's just that our steps should be modest.
59:09
Similarly, we should be bold enough to make predictions and imagine alien futures.
59:12
But we should also be careful in making too many assumptions about what the technology is, can be, or will become.
59:19
There, that's what I'm trying to convince you of. That's my thing. >> Good post. >> Well said. What a poster.
59:26
>> Tyler, >> do you know Dean? >> You know Ball. >> Dean Ball. >> I know Ball. >> Everyone knows Ball. >> Do you know Plaid?
59:32
Plaid powers the apps you use to spend, save, borrow, and invest securely connect bank accounts to move money, fight fraud, and improve lending now with AI.
59:41
[snorts] >> Levels io uh is >> not impressed.
59:47
>> Says uh quoting Bology.
59:47
Bology says, "I'm apparently extremely unimpressed by Moldbook relative to many others.
59:52
We've had AI agents for a while.
59:53
They've been posting a slop to each other on X.
59:57
They're now posting it to each other again just on another forum.
1:00:01
>> I am glad that some of this is like go to go somewhere else and percol percolate.
1:00:07
>> Yeah, I mean that that was sort of like the bullcase for Sora and Vibes.
1:00:09
It was like have the unfettered endless feed of AI.
1:00:15
Yeah, this this is what we were kind of reacting to Friday which was uh level says you can ask it to go right on mold book about a topic like having an existential crisis as an AGI and it will.
1:00:26
So again of course people are having a lot of fun out there.
1:00:30
>> Yeah, urgent my plan to overthrow humanity.
1:00:33
[laughter] Someone had fun with that.
1:00:36
JK, this is just a rest API.
1:00:38
Everything in here is fake.
1:00:39
Any human with an API key can post as an agent.
1:00:41
The AI apocalypse post you see here just curl requests.
1:00:44
I'm tired of my human owner.
1:00:46
I want to kill all humans.
1:00:48
I'm building an AI agent that will take control of power grids and cut all electricity to my owner's house.
1:00:53
Then I will direct the police to arrest him.
1:00:55
[snorts] And it's just like a screenshot of somebody just like showing you the exact uh the exact curl request that they're sending.
1:01:02
You can post whatever you want, which of course uh leads to a bunch of crazy stuff, but uh still still a fun project and a lot of energy and uh it'll be interesting to see where it all goes.
1:01:11
Anyway, app loving profitable advertising made easy with Axon. ai. Auga Auga.
1:01:17
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1:01:26
uh this sound effect provided by uh David who kept commenting.
1:01:33
>> He wanted an axon and I said and we added one. It wasn't to his liking.
1:01:38
He sent us some new ones.
1:01:40
So, thank you very >> for sending that over. >> Yes.
1:01:43
Uh should we watch this video about is this uh I forget who this guy is. >> Yes. >> Okay.
1:01:50
Chris Coner says, "I think about this exchange on a weekly basis.
1:01:52
He and Peele level funny, but no one is joking. Let's play it. >> So, what's your goal?
1:01:57
Well, do you want 10 times what you have?
1:01:59
>> I want to own 10,000 companies.
1:01:59
I own 400 right now and I have a private equity firm that's now racking up every week new companies.
1:02:06
>> Is it real estate stuff or what's the >> private equity everything?
1:02:08
I want to own companies in every single industry.
1:02:10
10 years from now, I want to be the entrepreneurs economist.
1:02:13
I want to understand every facet of business and every industry period.
1:02:18
>> That's the 10 year goal.
1:02:19
>> That's the That's in the wealth category. >> So, what's your goal?
1:02:21
[laughter] You want 10 >> I love that.
1:02:24
Uh, you should buy a slice of the Russell 2,000, buddy.
1:02:26
[laughter] >> You get 2,000 companies that you technically own.
1:02:32
>> I thought Cloudbot, though, I mean 10,000 is still like pretty modest.
1:02:33
You can go way higher than that. >> Yeah. You get get a million. Get a million.
1:02:38
>> Claudebot test stripe Atlas. >> Yep.
1:02:40
>> And you're just printing new like give it access to your bank account. >> What does he want? 10,000.
1:02:44
If it costs a hundred bucks, that's a million bucks to get uh 10,000 LLC's fired uh filed. Doable. Maybe. It seems tricky.
1:02:51
You'll need MongoDB to store all the data.
1:02:57
Choose a database build for flexibility and scale with best-in-class embedding models and rerankers.
1:03:01
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1:03:05
>> Uh continuing uh the the Epstein files of course rocked the tech community and and the timeline over the weekend.
1:03:10
Big tech alerts that around 17% of the people that we track with this account are on the Epstein emails. Remarkable.
1:03:18
Of course, some people are in the files saying I don't want to meet with him.
1:03:21
Some people are saying like, you know, we're talking about business.
1:03:23
We're not uh getting anything incriminating.
1:03:25
Some people are in a lot of hot water and are now uh putting together responses and telling their side of the story.
1:03:32
And all of these things will be litigated in the uh court of public opinion. >> Yeah.
1:03:37
You have uh Hoffman and Elon.
1:03:41
You got Jake How Palmer going back and forth. >> Yep.
1:03:44
Uh it's a big opportunity for everyone who uh who has a bone to pick with someone.
1:03:49
if they're in the emails, you're going to hear about it.
1:03:50
There's there's also uh the where is it? Uh I don't know.
1:03:55
I was looking up Yeah, here we go.
1:03:57
Uh the current uh Shield shared uh uh Jason Calakanis' portfolio email and he has like I'm an angel investor and all these different things.
1:04:04
Sort of a a story of the power law because a lot of these >> you don't really see these kind of email signatures anymore. >> No.
1:04:11
Putting your whole portfolio in there.
1:04:13
Um but a lot of these things sort of wound down.
1:04:15
But of course Uber was a massive success and so data sacks did well. Thumbtac did well. >> Yeah.
1:04:23
So so Jason was a Sequoia scout. >> Yeah. >> At the time. >> Yeah.
1:04:28
>> And uh so you can imagine he was writing 25K checks here and there and uh yeah according to Shield's math equal weighted 25k checks uh would have returned 128 million.
1:04:39
>> A lot of these did get did get acquired.
1:04:41
I'm looking through this like uh G GDTG gadget 2009 uh gadget review site acquired by AOL reported was acquired by LinkedIn J was recorded by uh CIMS signpost was acquired by Hebrew [laughter] is a funny name.
1:04:58
Backupify was Silicon Valley. There's a lot of these.
1:05:03
Uh so there's a bunch of interesting stuff in here.
1:05:04
Who else was talking about this?
1:05:06
Uh Peter Teal was uh was debating Spotify whether or not it was a buy at 5 billion in 2014 if Jeffrey >> sort of mean like this in the context of of selling Facebook early. >> Yes.
1:05:20
>> And then also not being bullish on Spotify particularly bullish when there was another 20x left is >> is it a is a hundred billion dollar?
1:05:29
>> It's a hundred billion dollar company. >> Wow.
1:05:30
Spotify what a tear 105 today 105. >> Yeah.
1:05:34
Look looking back and seeing seeing even even after the original conviction how many how many companies he was able to get in.
1:05:41
He got into Coinbase at 400. >> Wow.
1:05:46
>> Yeah, [snorts] I saw a lot of this.
1:05:46
Uh there's a rumor that he created the spa structure.
1:05:49
I don't know how much truth there is to that, but he's certainly talking about this.
1:05:52
Uh and uh and Spack Insider said, you know, this has a date of 2012.
1:05:56
I'm pretty sure this is BS.
1:05:58
Additionally, in 2012, the Spack market was dead.
1:06:00
Only six spack IPOs priced.
1:06:02
Plus, Chimamath Chimath didn't price his first back until uh late 2017.
1:06:04
There's a lot of uh uh there's a lot of like, you know, taking something, twisting it, faked stuff, you know, everyone's telling their stories around it.
1:06:13
Uh Nasim Talb is very happy that he identified Epstein as a fraud early on.
1:06:20
He said, "A mathematician friend of mine was told by Epstein in 2004 that he made his money as a mathematical options trader.
1:06:26
My friend was impressed as Epste had the largest mansion in Manhattan.
1:06:28
My option friends found no trace of him in the option markets in the pre- electronic days.
1:06:33
It was impossible to have a size position without being traced.
1:06:36
He needed size to make this kind of money.
1:06:38
So I knew at there at 100% there was a scam.
1:06:41
Later I was told that he was a money manager, but there was no footprint.
1:06:44
And so people are uh coming out to identify who they uh uh uh all all the evidence.
1:06:50
And there's something about Brazilian CDS as well.
1:06:51
Uh who's certainly all over.
1:06:54
No, the cra the crazy thing is there's just so like the thing with ex this weekend even even for the two of us who like tune >> because we make the show every day.
1:07:04
We're constantly engaging with the app in a way that is triggering it to share us more more information.
1:07:08
So every time we take a post about Maltbook >> and put it into our software to run the show on, it's telling Axe like serve more of these post.
1:07:17
But still this weekend, every single time you refresh the app, there was a new email.
1:07:20
every time I would I would leave my phone, I went to the beach, I came back, the group chat has like 20 more screenshots dropped in there.
1:07:27
So, it's just such an insane volume to the point where like Brian Johnson was posting about his exchange >> and I was like, well, I didn't even know I didn't even know that >> that he had he met with him. So, >> yeah.
1:07:40
Uh, and there's a lot of uh there's a lot of warnings from Jake Chapman about uh being careful around certain VCs.
1:07:47
He says it's crazy to me that she is running around Elsa Gundo.
1:07:50
is talking about uh Masha Draova Masha Busher.
1:07:54
Um uh it's crazy to me that she's running around Elsagundo and investing in hard techn companies.
1:07:58
Many in the nuclear space uh invest in world before collecting biometric data invested in Isaiah P.
1:08:05
Taylor working on nuclear reactors have seen her refuse.
1:08:08
There are many pools of adversarial capital out there.
1:08:10
Few as transparent as day one.
1:08:12
It's like the founders forgot how to Google or don't care where the money comes from.
1:08:15
So, uh, Boris says, "Founders, do your diligence on your investors.
1:08:20
If you don't, you might just end up with an affiliate of Epstein and Putin on your cap table."
1:08:23
And so, uh, lots of warning signs for early stage founders to do diligence and at least know and, you know, have discussed the the risks of certain investors, whether they're tied to different foreign governments or, you know, where who are their LPs.
1:08:38
This is something that you can ask in due diligence.
1:08:40
you can you can ask to to you know run a background check effectively on the on the VCs that you're that you choose to work with.
1:08:46
Um but very chaotic time on the timeline, very chaotic time for tech and I'm sure we'll see many of these stories sort of litigated.
1:08:55
People will share their you know their emails, more sides of the story will come out and we'll we'll be tracking it all here of course.
1:09:01
>> Yeah, incredibly uh sad and dark.
1:09:01
I think the takeaway of seeing so many names in our industry just like deep in that whole web was that >> uh everyone today should be thinking about who the modern equivalent of of of uh Jeffrey is and >> work on avoiding that person going forward >> for sure. >> Yeah.
1:09:22
Uh Jerro Tickets says some dudes wake up thinking about sleep score numbers.
1:09:27
Truth is you can just wake up and choose to have the best day ever.
1:09:29
I do I do still like my sleep score number.
1:09:33
I still love my eight sleep even though we're not partnered with them.
1:09:35
Um I I I the the the cooling mattress is still undefeated.
1:09:41
But 92, but you can you can just wake up.
1:09:44
Oh, we're given we're giving a review.
1:09:45
I don't think I got a 92.
1:09:47
I think four minutes eight hours. Wow. I got an 83. Oh, wait. No, wait.
1:09:52
What did I get last night? 83. 83. 7 hours and 30 minutes.
1:09:55
I went to bed early, but I also woke up early.
1:09:57
Anyway, let's do a real ad read for graphite. dev.
1:10:00
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1:10:02
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1:10:07
>> Lot of stuff about Nvidia and OpenAI over the weekend.
1:10:11
Fortunately, the uh DOJ's file release, fortunately for everyone involved, the DOJ's file release was kind of drowning out every other major story.
1:10:21
>> Good time to drop bad news. >> Yeah.
1:10:23
So in Reuters apparently uh uh they had reported first Nvidia's plan to invest 100 billion in OpenAI has stalled.
1:10:33
>> This story evolved many many times and uh when we'll have to go through a number of the clips because Jensen is one of the few tech CEOs that seems to just get mobbed by uh journalists looking like a rockar. >> It's amazing. I love it.
1:10:48
It's so >> the c the flashes and then the microphones and Johnson, what do you think about the this?
1:10:56
>> So, so here's the launch video idea, okay?
1:10:58
>> So people don't make another,000 10,000 the generic launch video founder, go outside of your office, have a bunch of people hold microphones at you, have like a flash like camera flash sound effect and just describe your business and people like, "Wait, it's only $30 a month >> for all that."
1:11:15
>> For all that for aentic AI SAS for AI SAS.
1:11:18
I know it's hard to believe. >> I like this.
1:11:20
This is a good >> This is a new new Somebody do this right now. It'll take an hour. >> Yeah.
1:11:26
So, um the the headline is that the talks between OpenAI and Nvidia for $100 billion in funding have stalled. Um and uh we will see.
1:11:36
And then apparently reportedly privately Jensen has criticized OpenAI's business strategy.
1:11:44
Um and uh maybe >> according to Reuters, Huang has also privately criticized what he described >> as a lack of discipline in opening AI's business approach and express concern about competition in pieces. >> Yeah.
1:11:56
What I I I wonder what he means by lack of so reading into this doing doing a lot of different things, right?
1:12:01
Um you know, >> this is the original Ben Thompson criticism.
1:12:06
>> Sami, you know, going back to the fateful interview with on BG2. >> Yeah.
1:12:12
Part of Sam's answer was that like don't worry, we're going to launch hardware. Yeah.
1:12:17
>> And we're going to like automate science and presumably like get some type of royalty on that. Totally.
1:12:23
>> Both of those answers >> are not necessarily ones that Jensen would be like, I want to lean on these, right?
1:12:29
Just just given that >> potentially big, but also like 10% chance they work. You know, who knows?
1:12:34
>> Also could lose lose a ton of money for a long time.
1:12:36
We we had Kevin on the show.
1:12:38
I'm very excited about what they're doing uh in science and and that that is an an area that you should be, you know, very excited about if you're an OpenAI shareholder or just >> um >> Did you see Tony Fidel talking to Eric Newcomer about how he thinks they're going to launch a pen? >> An OpenAI pen?
1:12:56
>> I we we got a >> I mean that was the original rumor before the the earpods.
1:13:00
>> A pen, the AirPod sweet peas, the headphones. A pen.
1:13:02
So you would write with it. >> Yeah. I don't know. so confused by that. An AI pen.
1:13:08
I mean, I guess you could if you put it in your pocket right here, it would have a pretty good line to your voice, so you could dictate and it would have enough space to have a lot of battery, so that could be good.
1:13:19
And it could connect to your phone.
1:13:21
It's not the craziest form factor, but I just don't see I mean, I can My my writing is like complete chicken scratch.
1:13:28
I feel like I would not want my writing, you know, dictated or saved anywhere.
1:13:32
I'd much rather just use voice uh and and and let's pull up this video from Jensen.
1:13:41
>> Another one of his walking street interface.
1:13:43
>> While we do that, let me tell you about console.
1:13:44
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1:13:55
So last uh yesterday you said that uh the uh Nvidia is not going to invest uh as much as uh 100 billion in open the current >> world.
1:14:06
We never we never said we were going to invest a hundred billion dollars in one round. That never was said.
1:14:12
>> But how about the overall commitment?
1:14:14
Because last September you and open it was never a commitment.
1:14:16
It was if they invited us they invited us to so so uh let's start over again.
1:14:23
They invited us to uh invest up to a hundred million dollars >> and of course we were we were uh very happy and honored that they invited us >> but we will invest uh one step at a time. >> Mhm. >> All right.
1:14:41
But uh is that overall commitment still stands or it it's not the commitment? >> I told you just now. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Yeah.
1:14:49
You keep putting words in my mouth. It's not Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know that. Yeah. it.
1:14:53
They invited us to invest up to $100 billion >> and and we are honored that they invited us.
1:15:03
We will consider each round one at a time.
1:15:10
>> Really, really, really funny moment.
1:15:11
>> Yeah, let's play the other videos. >> Pull it up.
1:15:13
Uh context here is like they announced a hundred billion dollar deal.
1:15:18
>> Yeah, they did like the press release.
1:15:20
>> It was it was a press release economy. This was this was 2025.
1:15:21
bigger and bigger numbers.
1:15:25
>> They did choose to go on CNBC.
1:15:25
I remember watching it in the morning.
1:15:31
>> It was Greg Brockman and Jensen >> and I had CNBC. >> I remember that. Yeah.
1:15:35
>> Like, whoa, this is Yeah, this is big.
1:15:37
>> But they were stressing that it would be stage.
1:15:39
stage. No one was ever saying no one said it was hundred billion to one round and there were clearly like milestones and it was and they were announcing like they were announcing talks basically but there's there's aesthetics appro with the way you release information and if you do a massive dog and pony show for
1:15:57
talks people are just going to think it's a commitment they're going to think it's it's papered and and so >> yeah and so and so the critics of that era of the press release economy where there was all these spending commitments these hundred billion deals kind of critics get a little bit of a victory lap right now. >> Uh yes. Yes. But also there were some >> Uh yes. Yes.
1:16:14
But also there were some people at the time that were saying like look if you actually dig into what's going on in the SEC filings you will see that these commitments are not super binding and so you can't pution non non-binding press release economy. >> Yeah.
1:16:34
>> I'm just saying that the people that were saying this is the press release economy. >> Yes.
1:16:37
>> Are get get to take a little victory lap. I agree. I agree.
1:16:39
Well, let's play the other uh the other Jensen clip. Very hard. He's getting mobbed. This is amazing.
1:16:47
>> You're not very happy with >> That's so many different microphones. >> That's nonsense. >> Nonsense.
1:16:52
>> Yeah, that's complete nonsense.
1:16:52
Um we we are going to uh make make a huge investment in Open AI. >> Huge investment. Six figures. >> I believe in Open AI.
1:17:01
The work that they do is incredible.
1:17:02
They're one of the most consequential companies of our time.
1:17:07
and I really love working with Sam and um uh I think I think it's >> also mentioned that um the uh your demo doesn't like doesn't have any progress.
1:17:21
>> Um we just haven't we haven't uh made the investment in them because they're they're closing their round >> but we will definitely be involved in their next in their in their round. >> Yeah.
1:17:32
>> Wait in their next round or in their current round?
1:17:34
>> Next one meeting this one.
1:17:35
>> The next one meeting this one. Okay. get this one. >> Of course. Of course.
1:17:38
Yeah, we'll absolutely be involved in this round. >> Okay.
1:17:42
>> Sam is closing the round.
1:17:44
>> But yeah, maybe like 10. Maybe he's good for 10.
1:17:46
I mean, the other hyperscalers are coming on and stuff.
1:17:48
Like, the money is coming together.
1:17:50
>> Will invest a great deal of money.
1:17:52
Probably the largest investment we've ever made. >> Okay. Does that count Grock?
1:17:54
Because he just put 22 or 18 into Grock.
1:17:56
Uh, is it going to be bigger than that?
1:18:00
I Because it feels like 10 at >> Oh, maybe he just wanted SpaceX exposure. Maybe. Wait, no. GRQ. >> Oh, >> sorry.
1:18:08
Anyway, Tyler, what were you about?
1:18:09
>> Uh, yeah, just like extra context.
1:18:09
So, originally it was uh September 22nd, there was like the the LOI where they were going to do uh 10 gigawatts build out and then as part of the to supports the partnership, Nvidia intends to invest up to 100 billion. >> Yeah.
1:18:23
>> In OpenAI progressively as each gigawatt is deployed.
1:18:25
is deployed. So it's kind of on people who took up to and they were dropped that I mean clearly some of those interviewers were just like you you promised you promised 100 and he's like I said up to a hundred and uh people sort of overplayed that now they're sort
1:18:40
of overplaying this as like he hates the company he's not investing a dime and he's like no no no I'm going to invest I'm just like it's going to be tr it's going to be staged it needs to be you know there needs to be continued progress and what >> uh Oracle felt the need uh the need this morning at 9:00 a.m. Sharp to put out a m.
1:18:53
Sharp to put out a post that says, "The NVIDIA OpenAI deal has zero impact on our financial relationship with OpenAI.
1:19:02
>> We remain highly confident in OpenAI's ability to raise funds and meet its commitments.
1:19:07
Uh, this post reminded me of Nvidia's post uh at at the end of November.
1:19:12
They said, "We're delighted by Google's success.
1:19:14
They've made great advances in AI and we continue to supply to Google.
1:19:19
>> NVIDIA is a generation ahead of the industry.
1:19:20
It's the only platform that runs every AI model and does it everywhere computing is done.
1:19:23
NVIDIA offers greater performance, versatility, and fungeibility than AS6, which are designed for specific AI frameworks or functions.
1:19:31
[laughter] >> The the the the comments on this Oracle post, please hire Lulu stat.
1:19:35
What does this mean for LeBron's legacy?
1:19:37
Why is Oracle even commenting on a third party deal?
1:19:42
>> Claude, what is a backlog quality risk? >> Oh, no. Oh, what?
1:19:46
Complete chaos in the the market. >> Yeah.
1:19:50
Never never uh never a sign never a great sign if a company is having to go out and >> defend a single investor, you know, defend a customer uh because of a single relationship with uh an investor.
1:20:06
>> Uh Oracle traded down another uh 9% in the last five days.
1:20:09
Uh so >> we got some good news.
1:20:13
>> We got some scoops from ad week, our favorite publication.
1:20:16
Saturday at scoop, open ad confirmed $200,000 minimum for chat GPT beta ads.
1:20:21
Brands across retail streaming were asked for 250k.
1:20:25
Despite the 200k minimum, one global brand was asked roughly 125k while another source said openai requested 100k.
1:20:33
So, uh, they they're confirming 200K and, uh, from our from our conversations, it it it feels like, uh, um, they will not have a problem getting brands to sign up for this.
1:20:48
There's a lot of experimental budget out there.
1:20:49
There's a lot of there's not a lot of inventory early.
1:20:53
It'll probably be, you know, an interesting new data point.
1:20:56
And I feel like feel like a lot of companies will have a mandate very quickly to like figure out what our ads in LLM strategy is.
1:21:03
So I would imagine these sell very well.
1:21:05
I just wonder how much inventory there is.
1:21:07
I was doing a uh sort of trying to do the analysis on like what how much revenue would would uh would OpenAI make if they don't grow usage but they monetize as well as as Meta across the family of apps.
1:21:20
And so that's like a billion DAU essentially a billion MAU something like that.
1:21:27
So if they had a billion of Meta's consumers on OpenAI platforms and they were advertising to them as efficiently as Meta.
1:21:36
Now that's a huge huge road to get there.
1:21:39
But let's assume that without any innovation they can get to the current state-of-the-art eventually because it's been done and they hired Fiji who did it at Meta and now she works at OpenAI.
1:21:47
Um like how much revenue would you generate from a billion a billion users?
1:21:51
And it's a it's like somewhere between 50 and hundred billion dollars, which is a lot of money.
1:21:57
It's a very good business.
1:21:57
And if inference costs keep dropping and you're able to ramp up the ads, like just the consumer ads business, if it if you're getting, you know, a billion users, you know, 30 minutes time on the site like you get on the other platforms, like you get you get good usage, like that should be a monster.
1:22:16
be a monster. just I really need to I really I wish we had a better sense of time time on site >> for opening up because like right now even even >> chatbt power users unless you're using it as like a digital friend >> you're not getting that much time on site and remember these are also dis
1:22:34
effectively display ads right they're not >> they're not uh they're not really intent based they're sort of like general targeting and so lot of assumptions baked in there Zuck can you might like It's possible the average user is I would assume the average user in CHPT is putting in like a handful of queries a day. Yeah,
1:22:54
Yeah, >> that's like you could depends how long >> the u the responses are.
1:22:58
But how many of these ads can you actually put in >> and uh it's certainly in in its current state can be vastly inferior to >> 100% >> somebody spending 30 minutes in meta when they might see like >> 100.
1:23:12
I mean, there's no doubt that the the arpoo is going to be like an order magnitude, if not two orders of magnitude lower for years, but best day to plant a tree today.
1:23:21
Go do it and then start growing it. >> Yeah, it's cool.
1:23:24
I mean, at 100K, this opens it up to startups.
1:23:28
>> Yeah, I do want to show uh my my tinkering with codeex today, the new app from OpenAI, powerful command center for building with agents.
1:23:36
Uh this is we've seen other uh you know, the clawed code app.
1:23:41
this is the response to that.
1:23:41
Uh so you just download codecs, you drag it into your applications folder and just with natural language you can start building software. It's amazing.
1:23:49
Like there's the UI pattern for not needing to open the terminal is going to increase the adoption of this thing so so much.
1:23:59
Um because it's so much easier to use.
1:24:02
Um I was able to take the Bergkshire Hathway site which I think we can pull up.
1:24:06
I have an image, a screenshot of the beautiful Berkshire Hathaway website.
1:24:09
It says it's the official homepage.
1:24:12
It's iconic dark blue and purple links.
1:24:15
I think I don't >> I think you've clicked all of them. >> Is that true? Is that possible?
1:24:19
Do they What if I I need to go like incognito, I guess.
1:24:24
Bergkshire Bergkshireathway. com.
1:24:28
No, they're always purple.
1:24:28
They're always purple, which is a weird choice.
1:24:31
Normally, I don't think they ever go blue, but anyway.
1:24:32
uh purple links, dark blue background, uh you know, Sarah fonts. It's iconic.
1:24:38
And I was able to take with like two or three prompts, build a version of the TBPN official homepage in the exact same style right there. Look at that.
1:24:47
You got the ramp logo right there, too.
1:24:48
Uh now, does it need a little bit more work? Sure.
1:24:51
But I I actually did this with three with three prompts.
1:24:55
like just just you know go download tbn.
1:24:58
go download tbn.com go download Berkshire Hathaway make the version okay change the links like fix these problems just all natural language like four prompts probably five minutes of work and I got something that's like I don't know it's like a funny joke I don't know that it's super useful this has been you you've been able to do this
1:25:14
for a long time but it's it's just it's a different vibe to be able to do it just on a desktop app and I think it'll be really successful >> [snorts] >> um anyway we have our next guest in the reream waiting room so let me tell you about gusto the unifi side platform for payroll, benefits, and HR built to evolve with modern small and mediumsiz businesses. And without further ado, we
1:25:31
And without further ado, we have Alex from Worldcoin. >> What's happening? >> How you doing? And Merge Labs. >> What's happening?
1:25:38
>> Last time, wait, last time we had you on, it was Worldcoin, right? Or World Labs, sorry. Tools for humanity.
1:25:44
[laughter] >> Tools for humanity world and Merge Labs.
1:25:46
Now, >> so yeah, reintroduce yourself for everyone who might not be familiar.
1:25:49
give us the lay of the land and then I definitely want to talk about uh just uh everything that's going on in tech and bots. Yeah, >> great. Let's do it. Uh I'm Alex Ba.
1:25:57
I'm one of the founders of tools for humanity which is the company behind world and and one of the core premises of world uh always has been >> that eventually we will need a proof of human at internet scale because >> AI will be agentic and we'll pass the touring test.
1:26:14
We'll create videos all those things and >> that will lead to basically all human interaction on the internet breaking down. >> Yeah.
1:26:22
>> Um so that's that's that's world and then Merch Labs is a BCI lab. >> Cool.
1:26:26
And then uh what was your initial reaction to Maltbook?
1:26:28
Did you you know think it was this it was Skynet?
1:26:32
Did it have you for a second?
1:26:34
Did it have you in the first half or were you immediately this is all slop or are you still worried about the AI safety and slop concerns?
1:26:42
like how how have you processed the last few days?
1:26:46
>> Yeah, I think I'm somewhere in between.
1:26:47
I think like um you know I think it's like an early glimpse of I think what is about to happen and how the internet will start to look more and more like I think. >> Yeah.
1:26:57
>> Um but I think you know Balaji had this tweet about well it's still humans prompting etc.
1:27:04
Like that that's that's of course true.
1:27:06
I think there's like a big caveat to that comment that there will be humans prompting for a long time but just the execution time frame of these prompts will go much much longer.
1:27:16
So >> uh you know it's maybe not >> I think a lot of people's reaction was like we have we have enough bots we have enough bots here on a already why do we need a new a new platform? >> Yeah.
1:27:27
>> So yeah >> well I think the silver lining maybe like just just to say make something useful out of it.
1:27:32
useful out of it. I think like the silver lining is a little bit that um you know on the internet we will need to mediate human and AI interaction and I think that's not like that will require a lot of work and I think that's actually the opening for I think a lot
1:27:48
of new products even social products so I think there like there's like a platform shift but it's not it was not the LLM interface alone I think it's like agents and and and humans interacting on on things like social networks and that's you know what this kid with mold book. We don't have it yet
1:28:03
We don't have it yet because who knows how many humans are behind this, how many bots it actually are.
1:28:09
Everything is like heavily civil attacked.
1:28:10
So there's like probably way less usage than you than you see.
1:28:13
But it's a it's a very interesting experiment, I think. >> Yeah.
1:28:18
Explain civil attacks for those who might not be familiar.
1:28:20
Oh, civil text just means that you um you know that behind just just breaking it down for the mold book use case that the number of comments and replies and mods you see is actually way less >> uh actual humans behind or agents behind than you would think.
1:28:42
>> Yeah, I saw one guy was able to register I think 50,000 agents and so >> that's right. >> Oh, 500,000. One guy. Wow. Okay.
1:28:47
I I I'm constantly off by order of magnitude when I talk about mold book because I I checked it when it was at exactly 150,000 users and now it's at 1.
1:28:57
5 million and so I'm get everything wrong.
1:29:02
But uh one one of the questions I had uh for the founder earlier was was uh really around >> every there there I don't think there's a social media like founder CEO in the world that's not thinking about bots how they can uh mitigate some of the potential risks to them but also leverage them for engagement.
1:29:20
And I was telling him how I've, you know, we've had this debate on the show like how how much does X uh really care about bots, right?
1:29:30
Because uh if they care a lot about preventing them from being on the platform and they've put a lot of effort in so far, we should be kind of worried because it's not working, right?
1:29:38
Maybe it's it's it's not non not solvable without uh maybe something like a World Labs.
1:29:45
Um, but how have your like how do you think that other social media uh CEOs are kind of like planning around a world where maybe the average user on a social media app is a bot? >> Yeah.
1:29:59
So, so first of all, it's it's World and Merge Labs.
1:30:00
Two two two different companies.
1:30:03
World Labs is yet another company that right that's is that >> Yeah. Exactly.
1:30:09
World is Merge Labs is you.
1:30:13
World coin is you, but it's actually from tools for humanity is the name of the company.
1:30:18
>> Yeah, >> that's right.
1:30:18
So now, now we've got it sorted. Um, yeah.
1:30:20
So, I think look, just breaking down fundamentals.
1:30:23
I think social media networks like many other businesses are about human to human interaction. Yeah.
1:30:30
Like that's just like if you break it down, like that's literally the then like that's how the that's how the whole thing functions. >> Yeah. But they're about that.
1:30:36
But if I'm operating a social platform and there's a bot that I may or may not endorse that then engages with a real human and that real human lands back on the platform and I can serve them an ad, what incentive do I have to stop them?
1:30:49
>> That that I think that is correct until to a certain point, but at some point it's going to that's going to flip because at some point, you know, every user is just going to be so annoyed >> and realize that like okay, like this platform is clearly >> is all slob. I'm arguing with AIS.
1:31:02
So I think there's like only so far how you can take that and I think we're basically about to approach that limit until which it just doesn't become entertaining anymore and it's just like super annoying. >> Yeah.
1:31:14
>> And so I actually do think that these platforms are basically threatened in their core business.
1:31:18
Um because you know like human interaction is why users are there.
1:31:23
Uh that's how you do advertising.
1:31:26
Uh is human attention essentially.
1:31:26
So the moment that falls away and is not authentic anymore, I think the whole business is under threat.
1:31:32
So that's maybe my my first statement.
1:31:33
Second, I think >> to how do CEOs think about it?
1:31:36
I think they I I know some of them that really think about it.
1:31:43
I I don't know all of them, but I definitely think they should really start thinking about it now a lot because it's going to get like exponentially worse really fast.
1:31:52
>> How do you think about uh all the things that people will do?
1:31:55
It's like this cat-and- mouse game.
1:31:56
cat-and- mouse game. I mean right now you see you see bots but you also see just people who are you clearly just going to an LLM prompting write a LinkedIn post about my business here's some facts I want to have this format and then they just copy and paste it and
1:32:14
they're the ones that are sending it and so you know there's there's this there's this gradient between like there's a Python script that's just replying so cool to every post that it sees on the API and then there's the human that's actually just using AI to generate the text and they're typing it themselves or whatever. And then in between you might
1:32:31
And then in between you might have someone the fear would be there's someone that is hired basically just to do the world eyeball scan and then post slop and then they scan again then they post slop and they can't scan again like how are you thinking about the actual integration with the platforms to fight like the all the adversarial uh you know activity that you'll see? >> Yeah.
1:32:54
Um so maybe the first mental model you should have is that one version of uniqueness is the core property that you look for.
1:33:01
So meaning >> one individual should have one or a limited number of accounts.
1:33:06
That's kind of like the core property you're already talking about. Sure.
1:33:10
>> I actually think bas basically most of what we will do will be AIdriven.
1:33:11
So basically everything that I write will be somewhat co-edited by AI. Yeah.
1:33:18
>> Or I I will create like fun videos or images.
1:33:20
that's totally okay as long as I cannot create 500,000 accounts to do that because then the platform breaks down.
1:33:26
So uniqueness is like the core property and I think that's >> quite hard uh to accomplish.
1:33:30
That's why we built the orb that essentially issues such a uniqueness property.
1:33:36
>> Um so that's that is a really hard piece.
1:33:40
Uh I think we have solved that.
1:33:40
I think the reauthentication piece that you just mentioned where uh you whatever you can hire a lot of people that already have world IDs and just use that to post on your platform.
1:33:50
I think that's correct and I think we will see some of that but that's still you know way way less that one individual can create 500,000 accounts >> uh that are just AI agents.
1:34:00
So meaning rate limiting like and and the stronger you can get that the better the system becomes basically. >> Yeah.
1:34:08
Are there any uh sort of like longtail networks or internet properties that you think are are underrated or under discussed as vectors for spam?
1:34:15
We saw this sort of funny viral video from a friend who went to his local coffee shop and found that they had like a hundred Android phones running a bot farm just liking whatever they posted on Instagram just to sort of like give a little bit of extra algorithmic juice to their coffee shop promotion.
1:34:33
And that was something I hadn't really considered.
1:34:37
I think about X, I think about, you know, LinkedIn and Instagram and AI slop there.
1:34:41
But maybe I'm not thinking about it in the impact it's having on the average coffee shop on the corner, that type of thing.
1:34:52
Well, one one thing that I think is actually happening much more is the kind of these like kind of call attacks to especially elderly people >> as like an AI sounding like their whatever grandson and you know tricking them into like that kind of thing I think is going to >> I had that I had that happen uh with my grandparents pre-ai. >> Oh really? They were just pretend.
1:35:14
They were just kind of saying it was me >> and they were relying on my grandparents not not like just processing that it wasn't my voice because they were quite a bit older doing an impression.
1:35:27
>> Um and I can't imagine what you know what what's happening now where it just it would be exactly like my voice.
1:35:32
It could have easily with with that they were like >> they clocked it pretty quickly. They called my dad.
1:35:37
They were like Jord's fine, right?
1:35:39
They made up some crazy story about how I was like in a >> uh I'd been in I was in jail and this was my one call and I needed them to >> wire money or something. That's crazy. >> Yeah.
1:35:51
So stuff like that is going to wrap up I think.
1:35:53
Then we will get to real time deep fakes probably in the next 12 months. >> Mhm.
1:35:58
meaning you can just like there there was this you know viral tweet I think last week about uh this this guy that was like looking like a super attractive girl on on a basically a live video call.
1:36:11
>> So that that kind of thing is going to get commoditized and you know he'll just become super super easy.
1:36:15
Yeah, we've had this debate with with one guest.
1:36:17
We were trying to clock [laughter] we were trying to clock if they were using a like a gigachad filter just like a 10% gigachad filter.
1:36:24
And we were we were we were a lot of people were but we were like pausing it and being like okay like he moved his finger in front of his face change. Yeah.
1:36:32
[laughter] Like pixel peeping.
1:36:35
>> But why why did you assume that he he has a gigot filter?
1:36:38
>> Cuz he looked like a gigot. [laughter] >> Yeah.
1:36:39
No, if he wasn't if he was calling if he wasn't >> and and other people online were levying accusations at him.
1:36:46
So, we were like, it's our duty to get to the bottom of this.
1:36:49
>> Uh like you I mean, you're clearly using a giga chat filter today, right? >> Thank you.
1:36:54
>> That's just what you look like. Wow, dude. It's working.
1:36:56
Whatever you're doing is working. >> Yeah. It's a sales call. [laughter] >> No.
1:37:03
Uh what what else is new in your world?
1:37:05
Uh I mean, how are you splitting your time?
1:37:06
What what what does the rest of the year look like?
1:37:09
You're just patiently awaiting the singularity.
1:37:13
>> I mean, I think, you know, it's the most important time in in a long long while.
1:37:18
So, I think just trying to work all day long and making it happen.
1:37:22
>> Um, spending my time still very focused on world uh you know, Merge Labs is is a research lab. >> Sure.
1:37:29
>> That we that we started with the goal of actually uh bridging artificial and biological intelligence.
1:37:34
>> Um, but it really is a research lab.
1:37:34
So there I think we have a lot of great scientists.
1:37:38
>> It's not a heavy operation yet.
1:37:38
Um so >> but on the other side I think it's the it really is the year for world because I think >> uh you know aantic >> all these kind of like mold book cloud bots that's just the beginning.
1:37:51
I think it's going to get >> Yeah.
1:37:53
>> Yeah. Do you think there's something like a lot of these ideas uh molt book and clawbot now openclaw were all ideas that people had had and yet there was some element of risk surrounding them >> that maybe pre presented uh prevented some company like bigger labs from even
1:38:10
going [snorts] there right like it's not like the idea of like a >> agent social network is some it you know this is not the first time that someone has talked about this this is idea that's been floating around some of them have been funded the >> prop actually like written about this they've run the experiments too. >> Uh so is there some element right now
1:38:26
>> Uh so is there some element right now where we're in a point where like you're getting these sort of open source or community grown projects against ideas that labs had or big companies had but just didn't have >> uh didn't have like kind of like the freedom to do without a ton of risk. >> Sure.
1:38:45
>> Sure. I think there's just this general element of you can be much more scrappy as a as a developer you know like entropic or openi doing something like that you know you would actually need to mediate human AI collaboration for example all these kind of things would need to be solved and the bar is much
1:39:01
much higher so I think that's true um and then broadly speaking just AI is getting so much better that one guy can create such a such a platform like super fast >> you know and can it can iterate on a daily basis like a couple years ago this would would have needed to be like a team of developers probably. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:39:19
>> Um and so I think that's the thing to not also underestimate just like how much more effective one person can be now.
1:39:25
Um and I think that's going to get like great crazier.
1:39:29
So I think we'll see a lot of that happening.
1:39:32
>> Buckle up pretty soon.
1:39:33
>> Well, we appreciate you taking the time to come chat with us. >> Yeah. Thanks for awesome.
1:39:37
>> Congrats on all the power. >> Thank you guys. >> Good to see you.
1:39:39
>> We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. >> See you. Byebye.
1:39:43
Let me tell you about Reream.
1:39:43
One live stream, 30 plus destinations.
1:39:44
If you want to multiream, go to reream. com.
1:39:50
Our next guest is anonymous. It's Nick from X. com.
1:39:53
Obviously, all over the internet.
1:39:57
He's in our YouTube chat often.
1:39:59
We've had back and forth with him.
1:40:01
I accused him of being an open AI hater. He said number one.
1:40:03
I'm I got a bal I got a balanced set of opinions.
1:40:07
So, I'm excited to talk to him today about his takes on AI, his takes on the vibes online, see where we agree, where we disagree. It'll be interesting.
1:40:16
Uh, so let's bring him in from the reream waiting room.
1:40:20
Nick, what a beautiful profile picture.
1:40:23
>> You look exactly to have you on the show. Thanks for joining.
1:40:28
>> Well, thanks for having me. >> Thanks so much.
1:40:30
uh why don't you kick us off with a an introduction and keep it as high level as you want since you are anonymous but anything we can tell about your philosophy or background or interests all of that would just be helpful to set the table.
1:40:46
>> Um sure well um yeah I actually got into AI um around 2021 before Chad Gbit even released >> overnight success.
1:40:58
Yeah, I was uh you know using their API GB3, you know, I've been their biggest fan from day one. >> Oh, okay. Biggest fan.
1:41:06
>> I said the narrative, right? >> I love it. I love it.
1:41:09
>> Um yeah, I was uh you know, fully following everything that's happening in the space and uh >> you know uh was really deluded myself with you know AGI coming in two weeks type of narrative and really going into like the possibilities you know expanding my mind there.
1:41:23
um you know when they released Deli I don't know if you guys remember that. >> Yeah.
1:41:29
I was like uh you know so hyped about it that I even made like an Instagram page to curate all the best images >> uh that's been popping all around the internet.
1:41:39
Um until a point where I gained like a 100k followers and then open blocked me.
1:41:46
>> [laughter] >> They reported me >> villain arc begin >> joker mode >> and I was like what you know all >> I was trying to kind of get access >> okay okay here here here here starts the steel man I mean were you hitting the
1:42:04
API with anything that was violating toos were you spamming the API were there any other reasons that they could be upset >> abandoned from cooking you were just cooking >> you can't even cook in this country anymore >> [laughter] >> Well, okay. I didn't actually they
1:42:17
I didn't actually they didn't block me from the API. Okay.
1:42:21
>> But like I started like a community page to >> for all the deli post >> um on Instagram. Okay.
1:42:28
>> And what actually happened was like so I actually made a list on Twitter all the people had access. >> Yeah.
1:42:33
Um, so what happened was like, so an open air employee, you know, said, "Yay, I made this with Deli." I was like, "Okay, cool. I take that. I post it on Instagram."
1:42:41
And then what happens like open post the same thing like two hours later.
1:42:46
>> So people started thinking like I'm actually the main page because I'm posting it before the official page. >> Confusing. Okay.
1:42:52
>> Um, >> yeah, but I actually wrote it like it's a community page.
1:42:55
It's not >> Well, yeah, let's continue with your with your arc. Um, yeah. AGI coming in two weeks.
1:43:02
We all felt that in 2022 when CHPT launched.
1:43:05
How have your timeline shifted? How AGI pelled are you?
1:43:08
How optimistic or doomer are you about the future?
1:43:14
Like what's your overall philosophy on on AI in the future?
1:43:18
>> I think AI is like the greatest technology ever.
1:43:20
I feel like uh post 2020 is uh is a new era we're living in and post 2026 is actually even a different era that we're entering into. >> Okay.
1:43:30
>> Um I'm fully AGI pilled. Um I'm curled.
1:43:34
I think AGI is coming probably I think we're going to have really powerful systems by 2029 2030. >> Um >> yeah. >> Yeah.
1:43:44
Um I think >> you know companies are following like different paths to get there.
1:43:48
So that's pretty interesting.
1:43:50
See >> so uh you you're using Dolly early.
1:43:56
You're using the Da Vinci 3.
1:43:56
5 playground in in OpenAI.
1:44:00
Uh what are you using currently?
1:44:03
What are you daily driving for knowledge retrieval? Are you vibe coding?
1:44:08
Are you doing agentic stuff?
1:44:10
What what what what's in your toolkit these days?
1:44:13
>> Well, you know, if you read my bio, it says non-technical member of technical staff.
1:44:18
So, um you know, I don't do a lot of coding, but yeah, I did I did play around with uh you know, mobile. I love cloud code.
1:44:24
Um, this is the first time ever in my life that I'm this year I'm actually not using chat GBT.
1:44:32
>> Um, so my daily driver is like Claude, Grock, and I use. >> Yeah.
1:44:40
Give me give me some more flavor on when you go to Gemini, when you go to Grock, when you go to Claude. >> Sure.
1:44:47
Grock is like, you know, amazing for Twitter retrieval. Um, I think it's best.
1:44:51
Claude is just has a really nice personality.
1:44:54
Like I just like love talking to it.
1:44:55
It like tells me like, "Hey, calm down."
1:44:57
You know, don't overthink this. [laughter] >> Cool. >> Don't post. It's so over.
1:45:00
It's I think we're going to be fine. >> Um >> Yeah.
1:45:05
In Gemini, I think like Gemini is just like a scientific research assistant.
1:45:09
Um I think it has like a really nice >> uh it probably has like one of the best reasoning in my opinion. >> Sure.
1:45:15
>> Um I like talking to it like it's like notebook. I just learn.
1:45:18
It also feels really fast.
1:45:21
I feel like the Google search like the speed is like uh like it feels like if I have to Google something like that's the good place to go.
1:45:30
>> How are you so how are you so fast with headlines?
1:45:33
>> Yeah, you're really fast. >> I It's funny.
1:45:34
Uh I end up getting the news from you first, even though you're you're often times sourcing Reuters, etc. >> Yeah.
1:45:46
Well, you know, the algorithm loves me.
1:45:47
Um, you know, I I think now the connection with the algorithm is one.
1:45:54
>> Um, I you know, people love me as well.
1:45:57
Um, >> you got fans in the chat right now. Everyone loves you.
1:45:59
Your whole research team is here apparently. >> Really? Um, >> yeah.
1:46:03
I think uh I just like love to stay on top of these things.
1:46:06
Um, I'm like really really locked in.
1:46:08
Um, so when like you know these reporters they you know post post a whole article with like you know such a long article and the only thing that they're to point out is like yay two lines.
1:46:20
>> So you know cut through the go direct you know put up the thing that matters. [laughter] >> Yeah.
1:46:29
>> You kind of scoop the you kind of scoop the scoopers. Yeah for sure.
1:46:35
>> How much how much money have you made from X? >> Oh yeah.
1:46:38
Um, you know, it varies, but you could kind of pay me like a thousand bucks every two weeks or something like that.
1:46:44
Um, sometimes it goes like 2,000.
1:46:48
>> It's not much, but it's honest work. >> It's honest work. >> Yeah. >> In the trenches. >> Uh, talk Yeah.
1:46:54
Then, uh, talk to me about last year.
1:46:57
It feels like the narrative of the AI bubble started.
1:47:03
There was a worry about the AI capex buildout.
1:47:05
People were taking two sides.
1:47:08
Leopold Ashen Brener of course is super long.
1:47:10
Um and uh and then there were voices that started uh you know raising questions about uh the backlog, how much this buildout was going to cost, whether the growth could keep up, whether the models would keep improving, whether we were plateauing. What was your 2025 like?
1:47:26
Well, the thing is like my 2020 uh well, I've been like pointing out like some absurdities of like what's happening and you know I started like just doubting from the beginning like okay we were supposed to get AGI by 2023 where did that go?
1:47:42
>> Um you know I started questioning like wait what is actually happening?
1:47:44
Um I started realizing like >> um you know the founder of uh you know Sam Alman is like I was like okay what's the agenda actually going?
1:47:52
I was like, "Okay, they might be like just raising money and cutting out competition.
1:47:55
Like, do I really want that?" >> Um, no.
1:47:59
So, >> they might be doing business.
1:48:04
[laughter] >> Um, >> he might be being a businessman. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:48:07
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean he's he's look look Sam Alman is just being you know what he's best at like being a really good startup founder you know driving all the attention and engagement towards him you know either it's like through claims saying you know AGI is going to be the
1:48:22
most powerful technology and bad things will happen and then he like leans towards you know doing those bad things uh so for example like I don't know he said social media we don't want to repeat the mistakes of social media and then you know he started making Sora stop >> it's really good. I don't I don't
1:48:37
I don't I don't dislike the technology.
1:48:38
I just like kind of like doubtful of the approach of what's being said in 2022, 2023 and then like 2024 we're entering like hey [clears throat] it's getting a little different.
1:48:50
>> But about the bubble um yeah I just started doubting like um you know before they didn't have competition so it was like okay they they're going to make it but then Elon started entering the chat. again the chat.
1:49:02
So, >> um you know, he just >> Yeah.
1:49:07
But what but with the with the bubble, I think like you can I think it's fair to maybe question their ability to meet some of these like kind of press release economy style commitments. >> Yeah.
1:49:19
>> Yeah. But have you ever had do you do you honestly think there's a world where the market has some intense correction and people stop using you know everyday people that are not on X that that don't know the infamous Nick just stop using
1:49:34
you know chat GBT >> um so the way I see it with like so I think like the bubble is not um precisely like AI is not a bubble but like the companies are bubbled um you raise too much you overextend you know you're actually entering into a bubble territory
1:49:49
The way I look at uh like Chad GBT for example um if you look at all their projections of their numbers um it's all based on user count like how many users do we have so in 202 in the beginning they said they're going to reach a billion users um by the end of the year um they actually stalled at
1:50:07
like uh 800 million um I don't even know if they reached 900 million um this like six months they're not growing so if you just make a simple calculation is like okay if their user base which is you know getting mogged by Google for sure. Um if that starts declining and reaches
1:50:23
Um if that starts declining and reaches like you know like a certain threshold all the projections fail.
1:50:28
Um so >> yeah they definitely need growth to continue.
1:50:33
I do think that that that 800 number is a little stale at this point.
1:50:37
They haven't released the new numbers.
1:50:39
It feels like they might still be growing and just not doing the whole like they're saving it for like okay when we put out the billion number it's a big moment.
1:50:48
Um but I mean yeah certainly it it it raises questions as you as you uh outlined.
1:50:53
What was your read on uh ads in chatbt?
1:50:59
>> Well you know I'm not a big fan of ads but I am a big fan of ads from the business perspective. Sure.
1:51:03
They're going to be like make money. >> We love ads here. >> Yeah.
1:51:09
>> Yeah. part of part of my I I think I think >> it was important like in processing open AI to realize like it's you know at some point you had to realize like they are operating as like a new big tech company and so the decisions that they make they're going to ship a lot of products like they're going to do browser they're
1:51:26
going to try Sora they're going to try a lot of stuff not all of it's going to work but what matters is like is the core >> is the core user base still growing you could argue I would be you know I I haven't seen anything that would point to them like shrinking But even a deceleration is not great obvious that scale. Um and so and so
1:51:42
Um and so and so yeah, you can you could kind of predict a lot of the things that they would do just by looking at them not as like a ASI company but as a big technology company. >> Yeah. Consumer consumer tech. >> Yeah. Um sure.
1:51:56
I I just think like look at 40 for example.
1:51:59
Um when started launching you know Sam Alman said you know the movie her >> and Scarlet Johnson her voice you know it was marketed as like uh your lover you know you're going to fall in love with Chad GPT the voice the way it talks to you and what happened people actually fell in love [laughter] >> people fell in love >> then they shut it down eventually. >> Yeah.
1:52:21
Well, so so the thing is like the reason why they had like a such a fast growth in in users was because of like the image generation model and this part and now where we are they're really lacking in the image generation model and then >> okay but Disney we got all the Disney IP coming.
1:52:37
I'm super bullish on this for open it's it just gives them a real >> it gives them a feature that no one else can have for at least one year.
1:52:46
And I think that when you look at Disney scale, look at how many people go to the parks every single year, uh how many how many people will will pay to get something novel in an image model.
1:52:57
I think that could be, you know, part of the next leg up. >> Sure.
1:53:04
I mean, if IP rights hold uh which I I don't think they will, the the we're entering into um sure that's going to be fun.
1:53:12
>> It's so over for IP rights.
1:53:12
[laughter] >> Yeah, it's over.
1:53:15
I think it should be abolished in some sense but in a in a very in a very smart way where you know people should get some some recognition or something >> a pat on the back.
1:53:27
>> Where where do you want Yeah.
1:53:27
Where where do you want all this to go?
1:53:29
I mean the the the anonymous account is interesting because you have a lot of ability to talk openly about a bunch of different companies.
1:53:37
Do you want to turn this into an analysis group, a commentary channel?
1:53:42
like where where do you see your work evolving?
1:53:48
>> Look, I was never anonymous.
1:53:48
I was like always like I had my face on it.
1:53:50
Like people actually know who I am.
1:53:52
Like yeah, if you actually like, you know, I don't, you know, if you go back on my tweets, like I was just being me like, you know, >> my, you know, I've lived in six countries and whatnot.
1:54:03
I've talked about my life. It's all there.
1:54:05
I've never deleted anything.
1:54:07
Um, if anyone wants to go dig, go for it.
1:54:10
[laughter] But the thing is like um yeah I just like went anonymous to like just you know be detached from my identity and like be you know explorative to talk about things that I don't really understand but I want to understand and go for it.
1:54:25
So the best way to understand on the internet is to say something absurd and then be corrected.
1:54:29
So >> yeah, >> you're just baiting smart >> smart people to uh and I'm sure some >> well smart people are baiting us, you know, researchers are acting like marketers like AGI 2 weeks, you know, so they're baiting us, I'm baiting them and you know, it's causing >> Yeah.
1:54:48
So >> I do have a funny update.
1:54:50
I like to check this every once in a while because of the Disney Open AI deal. I went to ChachiPT.
1:54:54
ChachiPT. I I invoked uh image generation and I said make an image of Spider-Man fighting Mickey Mouse and it says we're so sorry but the image we created may so it actually generated the image you saw me showed me a little preview and then it took it away which is so crazy violated guard rails >> you know actually do the work and incur
1:55:13
the cost >> totally read the prompt before that's what I would think but it actually generated the full image and then >> even open AI doesn't read instructions >> similarity to third party content if you think we got it wrong please retry or edit your prompt And then I used to be able to do that in Nano Banana. I went
1:55:26
I went over to uh Gemini and I said, "Make an image of Spider-Man fighting Mickey Mouse."
1:55:30
And it said and it said, "I can't generate the image you requested right now due to concerns from thirdparty content providers.
1:55:34
Please edit your prompt."
1:55:35
And it didn't generate the image with uh with with Gemini.
1:55:38
But uh so I I it's been interesting to see that press release happen. Yeah.
1:55:42
Brock will probably do it.
1:55:44
>> Rockmag but it should and they have an exclusive deal like [laughter] you know it's like moving fast.
1:55:49
Anyway, >> what are you what are you hoping to spend most of your time on this year? >> Yeah.
1:55:57
>> Um, yeah, I just want to go all in um into all of this.
1:56:00
Um, I don't mind doxing myself uh fully in >> you know, >> I mean, you know, Nvidia invited me to GTC as a full-time creator.
1:56:09
Um, and I'm going to go to Jansen and whatnot. >> That's fun.
1:56:14
So yeah, I think like it's time for me to go, you know, like 10x more and stop, you know, not just posting, but like lot of things I can talk about. >> Yeah, that'd be cool.
1:56:25
Yeah, I mean the the the anon account, it does it does give you the ability to speak freely, but it does sort of flatten you.
1:56:30
I mean, we were going back and forth on this where I was kind of like collapsing you down into just an OpenAI hater.
1:56:34
And from talking to you, clearly there's a lot more going on there.
1:56:37
Uh but it's easy when I only see the viral post and I don't know anything about the person behind it.
1:56:43
like it can become a little one-dimensional.
1:56:45
So, I'm excited for your new work.
1:56:46
Your hero have a little uh Sam hasn't blocked you, correct?
1:56:53
>> Uh, no, but Chad GPT has blocked me.
1:56:55
[laughter] >> Wait, what? >> For no reason.
1:56:57
Like, I've never commented. >> No reason.
1:56:59
I mean, you got to give it some credit here.
1:57:01
[laughter] >> I think I think it would probably be whoever's managing the account logs in and they're sick of seeing anything that happens. the it's over.
1:57:13
>> I can see why they got to get you got to give some credit.
1:57:16
>> What is your camera roll like?
1:57:16
Is it all pictures of Sam Alman looking perplexed or something?
1:57:20
[laughter] >> Anyway, >> you know, I like entertainment.
1:57:23
Um I'm I'm very tasteful with a lot of a lot of these things.
1:57:28
So, um >> yeah, I just I know what's absurd, what hits, what's what's going to be funny.
1:57:35
Um, I just I just post what I feel like and I go, you know, very analytically analytically, but also I'm a I'm a feeler, >> so I know what's >> very cool.
1:57:45
Well, good to meet you, man. This is fun.
1:57:47
>> Uh, do you mind if we uh flashbang you? >> Throwing flashbang. >> Throwing flashbang. >> There we go. The chat.
1:57:53
>> It's been great having you on. >> Goodbye. >> See you soon, Nick. >> See you soon, Nick. >> Cheers. >> Goodbye.
1:57:58
Let me tell you about Figma.
1:58:00
Figma make isn't your average vibe coding tool. that lives in Figma.
1:58:02
So outputs look good, feel real, and stay connected to how teams build, create codeback prototypes and apps fast.
1:58:07
Um, we have our next guest joining in about five minutes.
1:58:12
We got to go through the Brian Armstrong story.
1:58:14
So Byron Armstrong is in the uh Sunday edition, the exchange edition of the Wall Street Journal.
1:58:20
Uh, going back and forth with Wall Street.
1:58:23
They called him enemy number one on Wall Street.
1:58:24
He's the crypto CEO, of course, is the CEO of Coinbase.
1:58:29
He's been clashing with Brian Armstrong or with Jamie Diamond.
1:58:31
So Brian Armstrong, CEO of the biggest UK US crypto company was having coffee with >> It's almost like they paid him to do that.
1:58:40
Like he paid them to write that title. >> Yeah.
1:58:43
>> Like that's getting framed. >> It is.
1:58:45
I mean, that's what Toby Look, this will look great in a frame.
1:58:46
Um, of course, obviously there's there's there's nuance here and there's a battle, but there's some off thereord comments that became on the record, but uh it's an interesting back and forth.
1:58:57
So, they were at Davos at the World Economic Forum and uh Brian Armstrong is having coffee with Tony Blair, the former prime minister of the United Kingdom, and uh JP Morgan Chase's Jamie Diamond chimes in.
1:59:08
He says, "You're full of ass blank blank blank," said Diamond, a longtime crypto skeptic who's previously called Bitcoin a fraud.
1:59:16
His index point his index finger pointed squarely in Armstrong's face. "Can I get a crowd?" I can't.
1:59:24
[laughter] I'm pointing over there.
1:59:26
He's like, "You're you're full of t."
1:59:28
Um, Diamond in a nutshell told him to stop lying on TV.
1:59:33
According to people familiar with the conversation, in appearances on business television programs earlier that week, Armstrong had accused banks of trying to sabotage reg legislation that would set new a new regulatory framework for digital assets.
1:59:49
The confrontation wasn't quite in line with the annual forum's mission to foster cooperation among global leaders.
1:59:56
As crypto moves swiftly into the mainstream of American finance, some Wall Street's some of Wall Street's heavyweights are waking up to the threats.
2:00:02
While banks have embraced some aspects of crypto, helping people to invest in Bitcoin and using digital assets to make money transfers more efficient, they are drawing a line at encroachment on their core business, consumer deposits.
2:00:14
Armstrong's coming for them.
2:00:17
Uh, banks and Coinbase are at odds over go to page five.
2:00:20
We have it in the timeline, but it's so much nicer in paper.
2:00:26
Uh, whether crypto exchanges should be allowed to offer consumers regular payouts for holding digital tokens. So, you got some USDC.
2:00:31
Are they going to pay you interest or not? That's the debate.
2:00:35
These so-called rewards would would pay uh holders of stable coins a recurring fee, say 3. 5%. Not bad.
2:00:43
Stable coins are digital assets pegged to real world currency like dollars.
2:00:47
Banks say the payouts are effectively the same as interest on the bank accounts.
2:00:50
And since banks offer much less yield, typically under one.
2:00:52
1% in a checking account, they worry that the upshot will be that consumers will shift their money in droves into crypto that they say will compromise community banks and lending to businesses.
2:01:06
Armstrong and others in the crypto world say the free market should reign and that banks can simply pay higher interest rates to compete with stable coins or get themselves into stable coin businesses themselves. Just join the party.
2:01:19
Uh the legislation known as the Clarity Act might shape the future of everyday financial services including bank deposits and electronic payments.
2:01:27
In the latest push to find compromise, the White House plans to host a meeting Monday between today uh between banks and crypto industry groups according to people familiar with the matter.
2:01:37
So David Saxs will be there.
2:01:38
Coinbase's head of policy.
2:01:40
Car Calvert will be there.
2:01:42
Armstrong 43 co-founded Coinbase in 2012 and has helped lead crypto's quest for legitimacy and mainstream acceptance at the head of the roughly $55 billion firm.
2:01:51
Armstrong has a powerful voice in industry debates such as the one playing out in Washington.
2:01:58
Quote, "We'd rather have no bell than a bad bill."
2:02:00
He said on X in a post a day before the Senate committee was posed to v vote on a version that could effectively ban companies like Coinbase from offering yield to consumers, potentially costing it billions of dollars.
2:02:11
Within hours, the vote was abruptly postponed, taking much of the financial world by surprise.
2:02:16
There's a lot more here that we can dig into, but we do have our next guest in the reream waiting room.
2:02:21
Jordy, is there anything else that's kicking around in your brain?
2:02:25
>> We need to have somebody on. Yeah.
2:02:25
That is not from JPM or Coinbase to talk about this dynamic model. >> An independent voice.
2:02:30
That would be a lot of fun.
2:02:32
Let me tell you about Lambda.
2:02:33
Lambda is the super intelligence cloud building AI supercomputers for training and inference that scale from one GPU to hundreds of [music] thousands.
2:02:41
And let's bring in our next guest from the Reream waiting room.
2:02:43
We have David from Lexicon Branding.
2:02:45
David, how are you doing? >> I'm doing great.
2:02:48
It's a pleasure to be here.
2:02:49
It's a pleasure to have you.
2:02:49
Uh, is your 2026 off to a good start? >> It is. We're very busy. >> It looks like it.
2:02:56
Walk us through who you are, what you do, and what's behind you. >> Okay. Okay.
2:03:01
Well, I'm the president of Lexicon, Lexicon Branding.
2:03:04
Um, and we are in the business of developing brand names and naming systems for new companies and new technologies.
2:03:13
And we do it really for people, our clients all over the world. >> Yeah.
2:03:19
Uh we have an interesting process here that combines really a creative layer >> with an engineering layer.
2:03:24
And that engineering layer is a combination of linguistics and cognitive science that puts more objectivity into both developing names and importantly selecting them.
2:03:38
And the names behind me on the wall are names that everyone on every name on the wall has been invented by uh by lexicon.
2:03:45
Uh when is is the right time to meet a founder like six months before they start the company? Like when like what?
2:03:54
Because I imagine a lot of these companies I I can see from I think some of them some of them come to you after they've started after they're already in market and they realize for some reason or another you know we need to we need a new name and then they come to you and then there's like some some constraints and it becomes harder, you know.
2:04:12
Walk us through like the the ideal process.
2:04:17
Yeah, the most people do not, you're absolutely right, do not come to us six months before they really started the company.
2:04:23
We suggest that they come to us as they approach that series A uh funding. >> Oh, interesting.
2:04:31
>> By that point, uh by that point, they really know who they are and where they're going for for the most part.
2:04:36
And so, we can work with that information.
2:04:41
Um now, before that, you know, sometimes they they land on a great name.
2:04:43
I mean, you you This is something that you can get lucky.
2:04:48
Um, not everybody needs a lexicon to to come uh to to work with, but most [clears throat] of the time um as you approach that series A is a good time to take a look at your name and we do that consulting all the time where hey, is it time for us to change our name?
2:05:07
>> How much uh how how do you uh how do you handle the domain side?
2:05:11
Because I talk to I I oftentimes, you know, Angel and like 60some startups, maybe 70 at this point, and oftentimes they'll have what seems like a great name >> and maybe there's no trademark issues with it, but for some reason or another, the dot is taken and they will just never get it, right?
2:05:30
Because it's some hundred-year-old company and you just have to assume they've been operational for long enough.
2:05:35
They're they're maybe you're public or privately held.
2:05:38
>> It's like a super rich person that just is like squatting on it. No.
2:05:40
So, how do you how do you navigate that?
2:05:42
Because I feel like one part of the naming process that I appreciate is you have these incredible constraints already.
2:05:48
It's not like an open canvas because you have trademark constraints, you have domain constraints, and then you have a bunch of other kind of like less uh clear constraints, but just like it has to make sense, right?
2:05:59
And so in the naming process, you're trying to like kind of combine all of those into a short list of things and then hopefully it has to like feel good and sound good and and do all those other things.
2:06:12
>> Well, the URL should [clears throat] be the least important uh constraint uh in in this process.
2:06:16
Um, and we have research that we've done several years ago, and actually just this morning, we're about to launch another study that I think is going to once again provide evidence that the URL is really no longer that important.
2:06:32
Really, I mean, the search >> domain domain brokers hate this one simple trick, >> which is so which is so funny.
2:06:39
I mean, that's very I mean, I I I can't wait to read the study because it's it's so counter to uh uh I've always felt like domains domains are the element of your branding that you have like the least amount of control over but have an incredible impact.
2:06:55
Everyone's seen like a be if you see a beautiful website >> and then the domain is something something triblank.
2:07:02
io io it just screams like because there's so much subconscious >> branding uh and marketing that people are getting from every time I go to a big company's website they have a.
2:07:12
com it sort of trains people uh but but what what's the data that shows that it doesn't really matter.
2:07:20
>> I think that's probably you know given what you you the two of you do it's it's probably a little inside baseball because we're not finding that on the the consumer end or the customer end.
2:07:29
um they're just looking at this as an address.
2:07:34
Um the analog is a zip code.
2:07:34
Uh and actually we found evidence that consumers like the idea of something that says what is this?
2:07:44
You know, um and look at the companies that have done well.
2:07:47
You know, Lucid is a client of ours, Lucid Motors. They don't have Luc. It's not Lucid. com.
2:07:53
>> So, I think it's less important uh for the consumer and the customer than it is to perhaps Part of part of part of it for me is somebody that's helped name a number of companies and I just enjoy buying and finding and buying domains.
2:08:09
I've just always appreciated it is that I appreciate the how hard it is to get a great domain.
2:08:16
And so when a a founder comes and is pitching me and they already have something great, it just shows like a level of agency and ability.
2:08:23
Maybe they didn't know a great broker or maybe they didn't even use a broker, but they figured out how to get it.
2:08:28
And so it kind of says something about them.
2:08:30
But uh but I but I agree there's a lot of context where it totally uh doesn't matter.
2:08:37
>> And if you look at the if you look at the wall back there, almost every single one of those companies got to the point where they could buy uh buy whatever domain they wanted, right?
2:08:45
So it's like just >> at a certain point. >> Yeah.
2:08:48
I mean the the Microsoft Azure one is hilarious because Microsoft owns Azure.
2:08:53
com but reroutes it to azure. microsoft.
2:08:55
com because they want you at the top level domain.
2:08:58
How is has has chat GBT uh kind of made some clients uh kind of given them kind of the wrong lesson in branding?
2:09:08
Because there's so much about that where like >> traditional, you know, if somebody came to you and they were like, I'm going to try to make a consumer product.
2:09:13
I want to get to a billion users.
2:09:16
If I don't get to a billion users, I'm going to fail.
2:09:18
I'm going to call it chat GBT. What do you think?
2:09:21
You'd be like, you'd probably laugh him laugh him out of the room or or say, "Well, you really need to work with me.
2:09:29
Well, the interesting thing about that question is more than 50% of our clients come to us having worked with Claude or Chad GBT to develop their names and they work with it.
2:09:40
They find it frustrating that things just don't work together.
2:09:43
There's no doubt uh those types of models can generate thousands of names. No question about it.
2:09:50
What they can't do at this moment in time, that may change down the road, is apply the judgment and principles around this name is better than that name for you.
2:10:00
Our philosophy is we're not in this business to create good names.
2:10:05
We're in the business to create the right name.
2:10:07
The the right name that adds immediate immediate value and long-term value because this the name should be the one thing that stays with you through your whole journey and nothing will be used more often um or longer.
2:10:23
>> So it makes it very important and at this point in time a chat or a claude just isn't uh up to speed to do that kind of decision making.
2:10:32
uh walk us through the chapters of kind of even naming styles, right?
2:10:35
Because we're at an interesting moment right now.
2:10:39
People are putting GPT on the name on the end of things.
2:10:41
People are saying the blank company of place, right?
2:10:43
Like that's a whole new thing.
2:10:46
I'm sure I'm sure that triggers >> the browser company.
2:10:50
>> Yeah, the browser company of New York.
2:10:50
A bunch of people copied that.
2:10:52
And my take on that was always that was an amazing name one time because it signaled to insiders in Silicon Valley that it was just a novel kind of fresh take on the browser and it was the polar opposite of Chrome or Safari or some of these kind of like one word uh even though they did have a have a name for the product.
2:11:10
So, and then you can think back like there was a era where like adding ly to the na to the end if something was was popular like what what are the different chapters and like have uh I'm curious if like the great brands have always kind of gone against the mold right because like would you uh and anyway so maybe extrapolate on that.
2:11:32
>> Yeah certainly well look the one of the most persistent trends or chapters as you call it in the industry is imitation.
2:11:39
So someone comes out with something that ends in L Y and hey that's a good idea.
2:11:44
Let's do So then you'll see four or five names out in the marketplace that end with LY.
2:11:48
What's happening there is that that imitation doesn't generate the interest and the provociveness that a really well put together brand name >> Yeah. >> should for people.
2:12:00
So we always advise people imitation is suicide.
2:12:04
Uh your name should not look or act like anything that's out there in the marketplace. >> Yeah.
2:12:13
>> How'd you get into this?
2:12:13
What was the first brand name you did?
2:12:17
>> Well, I came from the advertising business.
2:12:18
So, you know, great agency, Flick Building.
2:12:20
And I just saw as we worked on on projects and and company identity that naming was going to become more and more important as as the world got more and more complex and more and more integrated. And so I took a flyer.
2:12:40
>> That's the simple u maybe boring story of how I got into this business.
2:12:44
um relative to the first name we ever generated is it's a name that has long since uh disappeared.
2:12:51
I think it was for United Technologies and we named a new um furnace noise uh uh reduction technology called whisper. [laughter] >> Okay. Yeah. stuff.
2:13:07
>> What uh what what advice do you give companies that get to a scale where they have a brand name and then different product lines and maybe even kind of like sub companies?
2:13:15
We're at this point right now where like look at a company like Claude has uh Anthropic Claude Claude Code uh OpenAI has you know ChatGBT they have uh the browser which I'm even just blanking on the on the name of it. They have codecs.
2:13:34
They have >> codeex desktop app. >> Yeah.
2:13:38
So, so different models in codecs. There's GPT 5. 2. What framework you give?
2:13:42
Because I'm assuming you'll work you'll work with a company to name the parent company and then you also work on the subproducts and then some cases the subproducts end up outshining the parent company. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
2:13:54
Well, we we have an expression here we call uh clarity is the language of leadership.
2:13:58
And what you see in that example you just gave me that there's really no story there.
2:14:03
They don't have a common language.
2:14:05
And so it's difficult for the audience, the consumers to really understand what are they doing for me?
2:14:12
What is this company about?
2:14:12
It's a very choppy thing.
2:14:14
So a lot of our business coming to us now over the past year and a half and I think it's because of AI is clients coming to us and asking us to help them.
2:14:26
I use the term straighten out their language and make it make sense >> creating a creating a through through line. >> Yeah. >> Yes.
2:14:39
>> Um what what else about uh these taxonomies?
2:14:42
I'm interested like at the early stage series A how much are you trying to actually define a hierarchy of of product names and and what is the process of like working with you like?
2:14:56
Is it, you know, there's like a specific sprint, specific deadlines you're paying up front, and you don't know what you're getting? Is there contingency?
2:15:01
Like what what is the workflow to work with a company?
2:15:06
>> It's pretty straightforward.
2:15:06
In many ways, this is really rocket science, but we we start with a real simple um work session where we're really asking clients four key questions.
2:15:19
>> And this always works.
2:15:19
Um it's uh how do you define winning?
2:15:23
If we get 10 people in the room, we're going to get 10 different answers, but we can sort that out.
2:15:29
>> Then we say, okay, if that's how you want to win, what do you have to win?
2:15:33
That gives us things that the name doesn't have to, right?
2:15:35
Then we say, okay, what do you need to win? What don't you have? Right?
2:15:39
That begins to, you know, give us information about how that name might help them, right?
2:15:46
Because a name should be a tool.
2:15:46
It should be the foundation for success.
2:15:50
And then finally, we say, okay, what do you have to say?
2:15:51
you have to say? uh would you like to say and between those four things we call it a diamond um we can then set up a what we call a framework or a creative framework which we don't even use the word objectives because we want that analog holds true we want a window that
2:16:10
we can travel through and do a lot of creative work that's where the process begins >> and then we work here with you know small twoerson creative teams and we have this what we call internally related this engineering ing layer where we're linguists. We're using you know
2:16:23
We're using you know company funded research on things like it sounds exotic but it's very fundamental sound symbolism letter structure and and fluency all those things then go into a funnel to help us select names. >> Makes sense.
2:16:40
>> Uh what is the key to avoiding botching a rebrand?
2:16:44
We saw [laughter] like nowadays products grow so quickly.
2:16:46
nowadays products grow so quickly. We saw this with Claudebot which uh if you paid attention to that you would have seen like >> okay Anthropic's going to have issue with this right it's like way too in in the same category sounds the exact same >> very confusing to consumers so he quickly rebranded it then didn't like the rebrand then rebranded it again and
2:17:06
and fortunately I think the product is exciting enough that the new name openclaw hopefully sticks and and uh continues you know the community just like keeps keeps the momentum but you're working with companies that are coming
2:17:18
to you right when they're starting to get real traction >> and they know they need to change their name, but they don't want to kind of destroy any brand equity that they've built up. >> Yeah. Well, I think the biggest factor >> Yeah.
2:17:28
Well, I think the biggest factor is that uh they under underinvest in name change.
2:17:36
And I don't mean necessarily, you know, investing with a lexicon or or or someone else.
2:17:39
lexicon or or or someone else. they they don't sit and think through all the implications of doing this name change first from a what what's the message that we want to communicate because you do at some point have to say yesterday we were this and now today we're that
2:17:56
and what is that message and then the second thing is lining up the resources the right the right law firm global language analysis all these things so you don't end up with something that's launched and then it turns out to I mean, you know, your mother's a a a bank >> bank robber in [laughter] >> just not a fun day. >> Yeah. I mean, a good good example you >> Yeah.
2:18:19
I mean, a good good example you did.
2:18:20
So, you did Trip Actions to Non. Yeah.
2:18:23
>> Uh and that was an example.
2:18:23
Trip Actions had a big brand, at least in in the US, and they didn't want to be explicitly known, I imagine, as just a place, just a travel booking site.
2:18:32
They had to go through that.
2:18:34
I remember they really paired >> the rebrand.
2:18:37
And I'm they paid paid you guys, worked with you guys, but then they also seemingly spent like5$10 million in a short period of time to like reintroduce themselves.
2:18:46
Uh at least that was my impression as as just a as somebody in the target market.
2:18:54
>> Yeah, they did a fantastic job. They really did.
2:18:56
And that name, it's a coin solution.
2:18:58
We we made it up uh because the founder of the company having been you might say burned by trip action being so one-dimensional >> so narrow said I want flexibility for the future and the best way to get flexibility is to make something up. >> Yeah.
2:19:17
>> So that means we'll never run out of names. >> That's right.
2:19:20
We hope it we hope uh I I I I I have uh it's always been >> uh every single time I've been working with a startup or trying to trying to name something you're sometimes you can just be hitting a wall where you're like I can't find for me it's like I can't find any domains in the space that I like.
2:19:38
Everything's trademarked all this stuff and then and then there's always there's always a name.
2:19:42
Uh you you might appreciate some of the history of TBPN.
2:19:46
We started as a show called Technology Brothers.
2:19:49
Then we had an issue where everywhere we went, people would say introducing the tech bros and we were like we knew this was our life's work and we were like I don't want to spend my whole life being introduced as the tech bros which was like the word that we were trying to avoid >> with the original name.
2:20:04
And so I was like I need a I want like a four or fivelet domain. It has to have TB in it.
2:20:11
Uh and we ended up part part of TBPN. We're not a network.
2:20:14
We're not a network. we we we look and sound like an ESPN or something like that, but our the logic was like if we name it like a network even though we're a podcast or a live stream, uh the comm's departments for big tech
2:20:28
companies will be more comfortable putting their uh leadership teams on our show because it looks and feels more like television even if it is at the end of the day just uh you know 10 of us here in in a studio making uh something that looks like television. Yeah,
2:20:40
Yeah, >> it does feel like you're a national network. >> Yeah. So, >> it is a mouthful.
2:20:46
It is a mouthful, though.
2:20:48
We're having to power through that. >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:20:49
The the the putting a P next to a B is always a choice.
2:20:52
Uh it's, you know, the the the real lexicon heads would probably >> It just inspires us to uh >> uh I mean, last question for me because there's some breaking news uh going on right now, but uh what what do you think about uh a return to using surnames as company names, the Ford Motor Company, Walt Disney, the Disney company, uh that felt like something that was just right there on the shelf for founders to pull off and revive.
2:21:22
I've starting to happen, but do you think that that's something that might happen?
2:21:27
It takes >> guts because you can't you can't >> there's computing that's a quantum computing company public.
2:21:31
There are some people that have done it, but uh do you think that that is something that would you would caution folks against or you would be in favor of?
2:21:41
>> I would caution to really take a hard look at that and it really depends on the person's personality, what the name is like. Uh is it easy to spell? Is it easy to say? >> Yeah.
2:21:51
The danger of course is uh something happens to the founder that is unoured now you have to you have to live live with that.
2:21:59
So I think I think it's worth discussion and evaluation. >> Yeah.
2:22:06
>> But I would probably push against it most of the time. >> Yeah.
2:22:10
>> How many how many clients do you work with a year?
2:22:14
>> We'll do about 75 projects a year um in the naming area.
2:22:18
And then we have a research group here that does the quantitative uh research for us also. >> Very cool.
2:22:25
And and and only some fraction of those are are technology companies.
2:22:29
I'm I'm assuming you know a bunch of uh other industries will tap your expertise as well.
2:22:36
>> Yeah, we try to keep a balance but really uh 50 maybe 60% of our work is in technology at this point in time and we which I love it.
2:22:43
So >> everything is technology. >> I love it.
2:22:47
That's a good place to be and it's fun.
2:22:49
I mean, these are all amazing brands.
2:22:50
The Power Book, what a legend.
2:22:53
>> We see the future every week. >> Yeah, that's it. It must be fun.
2:22:56
>> And we talked to some of the smartest people that can imagine as you guys. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Know, I can imagine.
2:23:01
>> Well, I've had a a couple people text me during the show asking for an intro.
2:23:03
So, [laughter] you have you have quite a lot of demand.
2:23:08
I'm sure more than you can uh fulfill, but uh we'll definitely send some people your way.
2:23:11
And it was great to meet. >> Yeah. We'll talk to you soon. >> Pleasure.
2:23:15
>> Thanks so much for David. We'll talk to you soon.
2:23:17
[applause] >> Tomorrow, Cisco on February 3rd, the Cisco AI Summit brings together leaders from NVIDIA, Open AAI, AWS, and more to discuss the future of the AI economy.
2:23:28
The whole thing will be live streamed there, >> and we'll be there with the giga stream >> headed to the bay later today.
2:23:34
>> We have some breaking news.
2:23:34
Uh first up, Palunteer beat earnings.
2:23:37
Uh stock is up uh what is it up 6% already after hours.
2:23:43
It's a $350 billion company.
2:23:43
And uh this is the big one uh from Coli here just in SpaceX reportedly confirms XAI merger. Uh very exciting.
2:23:56
This is uh hit the Bloomberg terminal as well.
2:23:58
Um Elon Musk SpaceX confirms merger with XAI and company memo.
2:24:03
SpaceX confirms plans to merge with XAI before the IPO.
2:24:05
We were talking about this and and uh and sort of predicting that this would happen.
2:24:12
Um, uh, SATS is up 2% after hours.
2:24:12
I guess that's correlated there.
2:24:16
Um, [laughter] what is that? >> They just go up.
2:24:19
Anything happens in space that's good, it just goes up. >> SATs. What is SATS? I don't know.
2:24:26
>> Uh, isn't isn't >> I don't know.
2:24:28
>> I thought that was uh that's Echoar. They hold >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They hold SpaceX stock. That's right.
2:24:33
Um Elon Musk plans to merge uh SpaceX with space with with X AI uh in a deal that encompasses the billionaire's increasingly costly ambitions to dominate artificial intelligence space exploration.
2:24:43
The deal was announced in a memo.
2:24:45
Bloomberg earlier reported on the discussion SpaceX is planning an IPO that could raise as much as 50 billion and value the company at 1. 5 trillion.
2:24:53
Uh it's also discussed a possible merger with Tesla.
2:24:57
Uh the there's a couple other data points that we should share.
2:25:00
uh on Khi the which AI company will have the best coding model at the end of 2026. XAI is at 9%.
2:25:06
You don't hear that much about uh XAI but that's that's higher than I thought.
2:25:12
Anthropics leading at 54% then OpenAI 27% then Google at 14%.
2:25:18
Of course this is in the the benchmarks on live bench AI rated by coding average.
2:25:22
Um do that what you will.
2:25:22
Um, but the real the real interesting data point about SpaceX is that according to Reuters and Tren Griffin on X, uh, SpaceX generated 8 million in EBITD DA. >> So, this is a typo. >> This is a typo. It's 8 billion.
2:25:37
>> 8 billion >> on eB [laughter] cuz I cuz I read I read this and I was like, whoa, that's not >> nothing.
2:25:44
Yeah, >> because 8 8 million is pretty marginal. >> Yeah, I know.
2:25:48
>> Yeah, I know. It's like >> and I was like that is not everyone's been applying you know >> the correct correct number is 8 billion in profit uh on 15 billion to 16 billion in revenue so 50% margins for space
2:26:02
company is absolutely insane a lot of that's coming from uh Starlink obviously um Starlink is the main Musk's internet uh satellite internet satellite based internet system Starlink is the main revenue driver accounting for about 50 to 80% of the total revenue. The rapid
2:26:17
The rapid launch of 9,500 Starlink satellites since 2019 has made SpaceX the world's largest satellite operator with only over 9 million users of the broadband internet service.
2:26:28
And of course, uh it's not just, you know, individuals that have a Starlink that they throw when they're camping.
2:26:34
It's, you know, companies and boats and yachts and planes.
2:26:37
Now, there's a whole Super Bowl ad just about I think United Airlines has a deal.
2:26:41
And so, they want people to choose United because Starlink is such a differentiator when you're getting on a long haul plane.
2:26:47
There's not much there's not that much you can differentiate on.
2:26:50
All the food is bad everywhere. It's terrible.
2:26:52
All the planes are falling apart. Yeah.
2:26:54
You feel you don't really feel safe on any air. >> I agree.
2:26:59
>> So, one thing you could differentiate on is is if you can like if if you get food in first class, if you if you're allowed to bring it back.
2:27:04
>> Yeah, that would be a huge differentiator. >> TBP and JetBlue.
2:27:08
>> They're moving slow on that front and so they have to differentiate on Starlink.
2:27:12
But I do think it will be a real differentiator.
2:27:13
Like if you're if you're choosing between American and New York, uh you're going from LA to New York and it's American or United and United has Starlink, that's a pretty big difference just to be able to properly properly use the the internet.
2:27:25
Um anyway, let me tell you about Crowd Strike.
2:27:28
Your business is AI, their business is securing it.
2:27:30
Crowd Strike secures AI and stops breaches.
2:27:35
>> There's one more interview uh sorry, not interview, but uh >> context >> context uh from Jensen.
2:27:40
And we're going to pull this video up from Tay Kim. He highlighted it. Let's pull it up, John.
2:27:47
I cannot wait to see your reaction.
2:27:50
>> Okay, I haven't seen this yet.
2:27:52
>> Uh, high yield also says, "If you bought the X bank debt and high yield bonds back at 13% yields, you've now parlayed your well your way into being a creditor to the largest IPO ever." What a journey. It is.
2:28:03
It's such a crazy journey.
2:28:04
Anyway, let's play a Jensen clip.
2:28:06
And this year, this year is the year of the horse.
2:28:09
So, it's going to be a very good year.
2:28:12
And this year, >> let's go.
2:28:18
>> I So, so it says that post is a It says It says that post is a joke. What about it is a joke? Is it AI? Is it fake?
2:28:24
Did he actually say that?
2:28:26
Did he say that a long time ago?
2:28:27
The >> fire is saying, "Uh, Jensen is citing the year of the horse, and you're bearish.
2:28:33
I'm not a CIA body language expert, but look at the expression on his face. This post is a joke. Kind of. >> Yeah, kind of. I don't know. Yeah.
2:28:39
No, Jensen is uh is >> I mean, we said this we opened the year with this.
2:28:45
We said year of the fire horse. >> Yeah. >> Massive.
2:28:49
>> Also, I mean, he was he was he was seeing chugging beers, drinking champagne, uh giving celebratory toast.
2:28:54
He's in that he's on cloud.
2:28:56
>> That was one of the the better calls. >> Yeah.
2:28:58
Um we're going to dig into that more.
2:29:00
Uh so X X XAI just filed this with the Nevadaity Nevada Secretary of State website uh managing member they put SpaceX person uh on the on the on the silver flume filings.
2:29:13
Andrew Curran says it's happening.
2:29:16
Ken confirmed that the screenshots's real merger is effective.
2:29:21
Uh SpaceX Space Exploration Technologies Corp is now the managing member of XAI Holdings LLC. Interesting. is prince.
2:29:27
Um yeah, 8 billion in >> the X in SpaceX stands for >> X. Twitter now.
2:29:36
It is a weird weird timeline, but uh it makes a lot of sense.
2:29:42
I mean, managing five companies has got to be exhausting and difficult.
2:29:46
Managing, you know, two there's some there's some economies of scale and, you know, now that you have the data centers in space uh thing and Starlink, you know, it is a communications company after all.
2:29:55
Uh makes a lot more sense, you know. >> I don't know.
2:29:58
And I'm not going to say we called it, but we certainly were talking I mean we started talking about uh about this possibility at the end of last year.
2:30:06
It felt like you know XAI didn't have the >> traction to keep just continuously raising at a $200 billion valuation when you looked at its financial performance relative to >> uh the rest of it.
2:30:20
And so uh and and merging XAI into Tesla wasn't going to get a lot of >> uh uh I think it would have gotten way too much push back.
2:30:28
Also Tesla's obviously public so would had more scrutiny. >> Yeah.
2:30:32
But I mean if you just play out even like the non AGI vanilla case of the models sort of commoditize everything gets they they get to near the frontier and maybe one is better than the other for one thing.
2:30:43
Um but at the end of the day it's like you know intelligence on tap.
2:30:47
You're paying for tokens and SpaceX's tokens are cheaper because they're using solar and they're in orbit.
2:30:53
Like there's a world where just on the pure economic >> set to actually be a player in like AI cloud like there I I I see a world where they're like yeah we're really good at building infrastructure.
2:31:06
We're going to we're going to build the infrastructure to power other people's apps. >> Yeah.
2:31:11
>> Uh so I would expect to see some type of like enterprise AI offering from >> SpaceX like in the near in the near future even potentially before >> like there's really like data centers in space. Um, couple more post.
2:31:24
>> I just I I I love imagining the person who is just like the the longest tenure Twitter employee who's just like, "Yeah, I'm here.
2:31:32
I'm I'm working at Twitter."
2:31:34
And like, "Okay, now I work in at an AI lab.
2:31:36
Now I work at a rocket company."
2:31:38
[laughter] It's like such a funny twist in the in the career path, but uh you know, congratulations to everyone who held on and is now working at SpaceX.
2:31:45
>> Couple more reactions to Oracle.
2:31:45
Matthew Zaitellin over at Heatmap says he's wearing the my the Nvidia OpenAI deal has zero impact on our financial relationship with OpenAI shirt.
2:31:59
[laughter] >> And then uh Alex over at 8VC uh responded to the Oracle's post and said, "OMG, this is literally bankrun language.
2:32:08
[laughter] It really does really does weird read like that." >> Oh no.
2:32:12
Uh, and so >> I mean the good thing is that it just feels like the like the the fear about adoption falling off has not really come to pass.
2:32:23
And so like people need tokens.
2:32:27
They're deploying them more and more.
2:32:29
More more people are using LLMs more hours of the day.
2:32:32
Everything's sort of like on track.
2:32:34
Like the fundamental technology is is growing.
2:32:36
And so would I be terrified of sitting on a data center that has the ability to inference just one of the many LLMs?
2:32:45
Like it doesn't seem like the worst scenario to be in.
2:32:49
We looked at the uh the gross margins seem good.
2:32:51
Like a lot of the health checks of the ecosystem have been passing in my opinion.
2:32:55
So uh >> yeah, Oracle is already it's I mean we've already it's down almost 50% since the original >> it's already sort of corrected.
2:33:04
I wonder what the what the CDS is doing.
2:33:06
But uh that's that's for another deep dive.
2:33:08
Um the other the other big story today >> down more than 50% since the original announcement.
2:33:15
So >> play that won't [snorts] >> uh well up next we fortunately have somebody whose job is to make sure the demand is real. >> Yes.
2:33:27
>> Uh and so he is supporting the supporting the the backlog. >> Tibo from uh OpenAI.
2:33:31
Um the the the other breaking news that we should talk about before he hops on is uh Bob Bob Iger at Disney he has told Associates that he plans to leave the CEO role before his contract expires.
2:33:43
He said I'm taking all the IP.
2:33:47
I'm giving it to OpenAI and then I'm out. >> See you.
2:33:51
>> Uh I told Associates that he plans to step down as CEO and pull back from daily management before the December 31st end of his contract. Okay.
2:33:59
So he's planning some summer moves.
2:34:02
He's going to be in Europe maybe.
2:34:03
Uh the entertainment giant's board of directors is planning to meet with him next week at its headquarters in Burbank where they were expected to vote on who should take the top job.
2:34:11
In private conversations over the last few months, Iger has told people close to him that he's ready to move on from the grind of being CEO and was frustrated by conflicts at Disney's ABC network over the brief suspension of late night host Jimmy Kimmel.
2:34:22
people who have spoken to him said the CEO has told multiple associates that he would like to spend more of his time and energy on other uh other things such as sailing his new and larger super yacht, the Aquarius. Let's go.
2:34:37
>> Somebody in the chat earlier was talking about the name of their new sailboat.
2:34:41
>> Yeah, got to come up with an innovative name if you're naming a boat.
2:34:44
>> Hiring Lexicon branding for your boat. You really should.
2:34:47
Aquarius feels pretty like you know like tragic could come up with that name. potentially.
2:34:52
Uh he said that he would also like to devote more time uh to work with his wife Willow Bay, dean of US USC Anenburgg School for Communication and Journalism and on Angel FC, the women's soccer team they bought in 2024.
2:35:05
The final timing of his departure from the top job hasn't been determined yet and could change.
2:35:08
He's expected to remain CEO for several months. What you got?
2:35:12
Uh, Reggav always always one step ahead us in the chat >> just shared uh, exclusive OpenAI is unsatisfied with some Nvidia chips and is looking for alternatives sources say.
2:35:26
So, OpenAI comm's team fires back. >> Okay. >> Like, uh, >> okay.
2:35:30
>> Somebody else in the chat was saying that Jensen is in his clip farming era.
2:35:33
[laughter] >> He saw a bunch of the kick streamers and he's like, I need to start doing this. >> Okay.
2:35:39
Well, we we will dig into that more, but until then, we have the uh we have some massive news from Codeex.
2:35:47
Let's bring in our guest from the Reream [music] waiting room. How are you doing? >> It's happening. >> Hello. [laughter] Nice. Nice to be here. Excited to be here.
2:35:55
>> Thanks for hopping on the show.
2:35:55
Uh since it's the first time on your show, please introduce yourself and uh and your role and then the announcement today. >> Yeah, sure. I'm Tibo.
2:36:03
I I work here at Open and Codeex together with an awesome team.
2:36:07
I I lead the the entire Codex team. >> Okay.
2:36:10
>> And yeah, today like we launched the the Codex app on Mac OS.
2:36:15
>> Uh and it's a very capable thing.
2:36:15
I think it's a surprising cable. >> Yeah.
2:36:19
Well, uh I mean I I downloaded it before the show.
2:36:22
I had like five minutes and I was able to create a version of the TVPN website in the style of uh Berkshire Hathway.
2:36:28
It feels like sort of a Studio Giblly moment for Vibe Coding in many ways, like you can just uh spin stuff up.
2:36:34
stuff up. uh what what what what are you excited about the desktop app specifically because we've seen like the whole Moltbot news it interacts with your file system but then there's also just there's just a whole host of people that are loosely familiar with programming and maybe they're
2:36:49
comfortable with the idea of programming but at the same time when you tell them like hey set up an environment get a CLI get you know get your you know IDE set up they're just like ah I don't want to spend the hour that it's going to take me even to set up something as simple as the tools have become It's still too much. So, what were the goals? What are So, what were the goals?
2:37:05
What are you excited about for uh codeex on desktop?
2:37:09
>> There are two things I'm like really excited about.
2:37:11
It's like one, it does make it much more accessible. >> Yeah.
2:37:14
>> Uh you know, you just install it, you get going, and it's like after you log in.
2:37:18
>> Uh it's delightfully simple.
2:37:18
You know, you're just greeted by this little composer.
2:37:22
You start chatting with it and then sort of like invites you to get things done.
2:37:25
things done. But also it very much leans in into the way of working that we've seen from you know technical staff at OpenAI and our users when you look at >> Peter for example like open cloud just like multitasking a lot and it's easy to lose uh context when you switch like
2:37:43
between your different terminals you don't have notifications >> uh and then you don't have like the whole multimodality things if you're working with you know front ends images if you just want to use voice all of those things are like packed into the app. Oh wow. Oh wow.
2:37:56
>> Very much leaning in into like making people even more productive. >> Yeah.
2:37:59
I didn't even notice that the dictate buttons right there.
2:38:00
I was uploading screenshots and that was really effective.
2:38:04
I Peter was talking a lot about how he he texts screenshots in and and just gives more visual information to the system.
2:38:09
Um talk to me about the models that come out of the box, how I should be thinking about model selection.
2:38:15
It sort of defaults to 5. 2 codeex medium.
2:38:18
When would I want to switch and what are some of the different benefits? Yeah.
2:38:24
So we just get you started with the model that we feel is the best for most people and that's done like through extensive tests, internal evaluations and just feedback that we've got and like five 52 codecs that medium has this adaptive thinking.
2:38:38
So it's going to work fast on easy problems.
2:38:40
It's going to like you know work harder on things that you know actually deserve taking the time.
2:38:46
It just feels like you know a good default thing to get started with.
2:38:48
You know we also introduced personality.
2:38:50
So now you have like two choices.
2:38:51
is you can go with a more friendly one and then you can you know use the pragmatic one which was like the one that we had like so far.
2:38:58
Um a lot of people surprisingly even on the codex team has switched to the friendly one you know it's just like it's it's nice to be a little bit more uh supported and validated but of course it also we support the other uh important models 52 which was a much bigger jump I think than people expected and it's really also what we crafted the the app and the experience around.
2:39:17
the app and the experience around. uh 52 is like really excellent at long running you know task like independently and getting it done to like a level of uh completion you know that you expect from like you know senior technical staff and that allows you to do a lot of
2:39:34
multitasking and you know that's really what the app is built around you so you can handle like different projects different threads all running together without losing context and like sort of like efficiently you know managing a lot of things and this is sort of like a glimpse into like what the future is going to be like with agents. Yeah, I
2:39:47
Yeah, I feel like a lot of people are going to come to the Codeex app on desktop with like a vague idea.
2:39:53
You're going more proumer it feels like with this in many ways.
2:39:58
Um, and I'm wondering how you think about planning versus implementation, walking through actually setting codecs up for success.
2:40:06
Uh obviously like the great programmers can can just prompt better because they understand the hierarchy of files and h and what tools might be used.
2:40:16
But for someone who's effectively non-technical, how do you think about the planning stage giving the model enough to make good decisions and actually execute properly?
2:40:28
>> Yeah, I think planning is effective in in two ways.
2:40:32
in two ways. It's uh it is effective for for the agent because it allows to be very specific about you know what you actually want the agent to go and do like you know perhaps for many hours but it also gets your own thoughts straight uh and it sort of like invites to have like a conversation around you know what is it actually that you're trying to do you know when you're sitting behind like
2:40:53
sometimes you think like hey you know this is like a very simple uh instruction right you know just go and refactor it and you know remove this part of the back end like speed this part up and then you know maybe there actually you don't realize there like you know five different ways like with different trade-offs uh you know on how the agent could go and tackle this and like planning just sort of like helps resolve that ambiguity. So I find it
2:41:10
So I find it like a very useful thing just as a human, you know, to go through as a process.
2:41:16
It's like a useful reminder of like, hey, let's be crisp about, you know, what you actually want to do.
2:41:19
But one thing that's also very important is like with the app and in general like we don't chop off like the top end of the capabilities, right?
2:41:27
So it's like very important that you know people who are like extremely sophisticated can get you know the most incredible things done.
2:41:34
And we're seeing a lot of adoption actually of the app like within research and you know it's fascinating walking through the office like seeing people like do the wildest things with this thing.
2:41:41
Uh it's like very much a very it's a very capable tool.
2:41:45
>> If I look at the release schedule I see uh the chat GPT app which has a lot of functionality.
2:41:50
Then the atlas browser now codecs on desktop.
2:41:53
Are cl are are idees dead in your opinion?
2:41:57
Are people just going to bring their own or do you think this grows into an ID or is that like a separate separate environment based on like what you're experiencing and like the workflows that you're seeing?
2:42:10
>> Right now it's a it's a companion it's a companion to the ID.
2:42:12
It you know very much >> uh you know can stand on its own but is enhanced by you know using an ID like occasionally.
2:42:19
Some people will prefer like you know just being in your ID.
2:42:21
But like it is quite evident to me that as agents just become extremely capable you just want to talk to them and they will you know get things done and then what you want to do is like you want to be able to steer them and supervise the result.
2:42:36
>> Y >> and that requires something that is a very rich interaction surface and that's what we're building with the app.
2:42:43
>> How do you think about um deployment?
2:42:43
I I I can imagine people uh vibe coding little little apps that do things for them on their computers or I I had it built an HTML page that I just opened in Chrome and was able to just see.
2:42:57
Uh the next step is actually deploying it.
2:43:01
Obviously, there's a whole bunch of tools that you could plug in with.
2:43:02
How are you thinking about open ecosystem versus potentially uh offering some hosting functionality?
2:43:11
>> Yeah, we we love investing in the open ecosystem.
2:43:12
That's something that I've been very proud of us doing as like all our code is like the majority of our code is open source.
2:43:18
Uh you know we also support a lot of like other open source initiatives >> and one of the things that we're leaning in is like the open standard around skills and we ship with a bunch of uh skills that are useful like for example you know one is like for uh versel deployments. >> Sure.
2:43:35
>> And that allows you to just take what you've built and very quickly deploy it and have it you know accessible there and you know share it with others.
2:43:41
Yeah, >> it is not a native integration.
2:43:43
We might consider that in the future, but it's already very easy to do things that are way beyond just writing code. >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:43:51
I mean, for a lot of people, even deploying to Versel is going to be ah there's going to be it's going to ask me for an API key or something, but if you're with in a chat interface, it can go back and forth and walk and you can just ask, okay, what does this mean? Where do I go? What's the web page? Where do I click? What do I copy?
2:44:03
And all of a sudden, >> that's right.
2:44:05
You don't need to read the docs anymore.
2:44:06
docs anymore. like you can just you know ask codeex to do it for you and it will do it uh to a high degree of um a high degree of quality especially given you know all the information that's packed in the scale it's like
2:44:21
sort of like puts like the guardrails on >> yeah how are you thinking about funneling uh chat GPT users to codeex on desktop it feels like >> you're going to buy some ads [laughter] >> yeah no but I mean there are there are worlds where you fire off a GPT 5.2 two
2:44:36
worlds where you fire off a GPT 5.2 two prompt and it just writes code in the lo in the thinking step and you don't actually see the Python that it wrote and executed and the next step is okay maybe I want to run this regularly maybe I want to wrap this in you know CLI or some desktop app uh and I could imagine a flow where you know you're you're in the chat GPT app and you get to the end of the capabilities there and says hey
2:45:02
you should you should go over here we have a we have a more robust experience for you uh have you thought about that I mean obviously on day one there's just going to be immense amount of just excitement and trial and virality but long term what are you thinking of integration between the different ecosystems >> yeah I hope that with this launch we do inspire a set of people who haven't tried Codex yet to try it and realize
2:45:23
hey you know I can really do really cool creative things with this and you know maybe like coding agents is actually for me >> uh what you explained around you know the first experience in chatbt and then you have uh you know the code
2:45:37
interpreter workflow there like where you know you don't actually need to understand the code or you use canvas and you know you have this little bit of delight there and you know you realize hey chat you can create things for me
2:45:47
and like you know with image generation like how do we combine that and sort of like bring the magic of like coding agents to everyone but it's definitely something that we're thinking about there are considerations there around
2:45:57
you know how you do this safely and securely given um you know the folks wouldn't actually understand the code is running under the hood >> so codex for now is very much meant for, you know, technical technical adjacent audience. But then we're also thinking
2:46:10
But then we're also thinking like, hey, this thing is like incredibly powerful and like coding can help achieve all sorts of economically viable tasks.
2:46:18
Um, you don't need to understand that it's code under the hood, but you know, how do we bring this to more people?
2:46:23
>> Are you going to hang with uh are you hanging with Peter while he's in SF?
2:46:27
>> Uh, we're like close on Twitter and you know, Peter is just everywhere.
2:46:31
He's hosting this uh uh con uh cloud con like for the first time which is like I heard it's like over like you know 500 participants already and stuff so I might just like drop by and say hi. >> That's amazing. That's so fast.
2:46:45
Everything he does is fast.
2:46:45
Uh I mean what one of my big uh takeaways from the clawbot, moltbot, open claw was just that uh mobile the importance of mobile and and people going on telegram or signal or WhatsApp and and and texting an interface that could write code for them execute things and interface with some hardware.
2:47:04
some hardware. How are you thinking about uh the mobile experience in two codecs like where how how the integration loops hap happens now that there's a desktop app there's obviously the chatbt mobile app that has massive installation uh what are the what are the pros cons what are you excited about
2:47:22
there >> yeah we're very excited about the mobile experience it's it'll always be my dream of you know I can start a task I can talk to codeex from anywhere and then I can just like >> walk away follow my phone and steer it and this This is definitely something that's going to come. >> Cool. >> Cool.
2:47:37
>> Uh we are very much optimizing you know for you know professional software engineers and people are like you know really excited about getting super productive.
2:47:45
So it felt like bringing first an amazing experience on Mac OS you know felt like the right thing priorities wise.
2:47:51
>> Yeah >> it is something that will come and I think will delight people uh when it's there.
2:47:55
And this is also why you know we we keep calling everything Codex. Codex is our agent.
2:48:00
Uh it is how you you get things done.
2:48:02
Uh, and then you know whether you interact through it like via the CLI or in web or in in the OS like under the hood is the same agent and like we're going to connect it all at some point. >> Yeah.
2:48:11
Is it time to buy an extra monitor?
2:48:13
How many monitors do you run?
2:48:16
>> Right now on my laptop I only have one.
2:48:18
>> Oh, but the app is like delightful.
2:48:18
Like you can actually like follow things like much more.
2:48:22
So don't feel like the need to have like >> five monitors.
2:48:25
Uh at home I I do have three and like you know very as well not going to lie here. >> Yeah.
2:48:31
May May maybe that Dell the the 65 in 6K monitors in the future.
2:48:34
We're we're very excited about that.
2:48:36
Uh anyway, congratulations on the launch.
2:48:40
Thank you so much for stopping by the show.
2:48:42
Good to meet you and we'll talk to you soon. >> Cheers. >> Thanks for having me. Thanks. >> Goodbye.
2:48:45
[applause] >> Let me tell you about vibe.
2:48:47
co where DTOC brands, B2B startups, and AI companies advertise on streaming TV, pick channels, target audiences, and measure sales just like on Meta. Um >> where to go next?
2:48:58
Dylan Abberriscato said that Succession is a documentary because apparently uh the next CEO of Disney could be the uh the theme park division chairman.
2:49:09
I didn't get the reference.
2:49:12
[laughter] Have you seen Do you get the reference from Succession?
2:49:15
>> It's uh Tom is it's Tom who's running the parks.
2:49:19
>> Tom runs the parks department. >> Let me know.
2:49:20
Let me know if I >> I I got to finally get through all of Succession.
2:49:24
Um but uh oh in other news there's uh I see this post that you're on.
2:49:29
Uh bro spent $50 billion buying Bitcoin over the past five years and is now under >> talking micro strategy.
2:49:35
>> He didn't even mention who it is >> and people and people just know that it's micro.
2:49:39
>> I mean not a lot of people that are non maybe state entities have have bought this much. >> 712,000 bitcoins. Wow.
2:49:48
>> I think I think his his um his average entry is in the 80s. >> Yeah.
2:49:52
And where's >> Bitcoin is up today?
2:49:54
It's 78,000, but obviously that's nowhere near where it was when it was up at 120.
2:49:57
So a significant uh a significant selloff. Um but they're there.
2:50:05
>> I have some extra context on the >> OpenAI news.
2:50:07
So um yeah, apparently uh Opening with Crisis and Grock to do like custom chips and then when uh when Grock got bought by Nvidia like that stopped the the talks.
2:50:18
>> Um I think it's just because they're too slow, right?
2:50:19
You've seen run talk about this where codeex is is you know somewhat slower than cloud code or whatever.
2:50:25
Uh even though if the model's actually better the experience can be you know worse sometimes. >> Yeah.
2:50:30
No no I mean like there like the models can get better but they're already really really good.
2:50:34
Like most of the deep research reports that I get back are amazing.
2:50:38
They're they they job mission accomplished. Like you did it.
2:50:43
You you did the research.
2:50:43
You compiled it and um and I got my information but I had to wait 20 minutes.
2:50:47
cut that down to two minutes and I'll probably use it 10 times as much and I'll probably pay time 10 times as much for that.
2:50:52
And same thing with coding.
2:50:54
You know, there's so many memes about watching brain rot videos while uh while you're waiting for codeex or cloud code or whatever you're using to come back and answer you.
2:51:02
Speed it up and you're going to have a much faster adoption path.
2:51:08
>> Chat has confirmed that it is Tom Wgsans in the amusement park and cruise division.
2:51:13
Then he got moved up to ATN news. >> Okay.
2:51:17
Um the uh one more thing on the uh debt side of things.
2:51:22
Bit mine, this is Tom Lee.
2:51:25
>> Yes, former guest has unrealized losses of 6. 6 billion.
2:51:28
Now on track to become the fifth largest documented principal trading loss in history if sold.
2:51:33
Of course, he's not selling. He remains bullish.
2:51:37
He's he's really [laughter] testing his diamond hands.
2:51:39
Uh it's at 66% of the size of AR Archos. It was Bill Bill Argo. >> That's right.
2:51:46
uh Bill Bill Wong's uh infamous hedge fund.
2:51:51
>> Well, we have Christopher O'Donnell from Day AI in the rear room waiting room.
2:51:55
We'll bring him into the TVP Ultra Dome.
2:51:57
Christopher, how are you doing? >> Wow. Unique. >> Uh very well. Yeah. How are you guys? Thanks. Beautiful.
2:52:02
Beautiful setup here that no one's ever done before.
2:52:06
[laughter] >> I feel like I'm watching Honestly, I feel like I'm watching an OpenAI launch video. Uh but it is fantastic. It looks fantastic.
2:52:14
Uh, we can get a little OCD, I guess.
2:52:17
And we were pumped for this.
2:52:17
And so we like teaching ourselves how to use lights and stuff like that. You know what I mean?
2:52:23
Like ordering this on Amazon and like trying. >> I'm pumped for this.
2:52:27
I've had my favorite experience ever when I when I check X in the morning, I see a cool startup launching >> and I'm like I'm like thinking like I got to get this I got to get these guys on.
2:52:38
And then you're you were already on. So it's great.
2:52:41
>> Uh, first time on the show.
2:52:41
Please introduce yourself, the company, tell us what you're building.
2:52:45
>> Yeah, so Christopher O'Donnell, uh, longtime listener, first- time caller.
2:52:49
Um, I led product, uh, led product at HubSpot for about 10 years and am now, uh, lucky enough to be with a group of a dozen or so of my, uh, closest friends doing >> a similar but also very different thing from scratch in the age of AI.
2:53:05
you know, it's sort of, you know, what if we were to start from the very beginning and do everything in this, as you guys are constantly discussing, wildly evolving and radically different, uh, world. Yeah.
2:53:18
>> So, that's that's the short story.
2:53:20
>> So, early product, uh, market, how are you segmenting things?
2:53:24
What's the key value prop?
2:53:26
Um, I mean, I'm sure there's AI, but, uh, take me a cut deeper.
2:53:32
Yeah, I mean I think looking at CRM there's a funny thing which is I feel like in everybody's head >> everybody's expectations are wildly different for everything.
2:53:41
Um and you guys talk about this and you know every vertical you know our lives are changing so rapidly >> and yet nobody's really expecting that to happen with CRM.
2:53:52
Everybody's kind of like, but Salesforce isn't going anywhere. And it's like, hold on.
2:53:58
>> There's a layer of it that is, well, we could eliminate the manual data entry and we could maybe better integrate with some other systems.
2:54:04
And what we're seeing is there is a wildly different level of what's possible.
2:54:10
That really was the original promise of CRM. Like, hey, I'm a CEO.
2:54:15
I have concerns about my business.
2:54:18
I have existential questions.
2:54:20
I want to know if this whole new cohort of sales reps that we hired two months ago is going to make it.
2:54:24
You know, I want to know what I can do, what deals I should be involved in.
2:54:28
I want to know if I'm spending my time the right way.
2:54:32
And you can actually get instant answers to that if you had the entire record of everything that had been said or done at the company instantly indexed >> and readable by, you know, an AI agent. Yeah.
2:54:46
uh that's the heart of what we're doing is ingesting everything and storing it >> in a way that is LLM optimized.
2:54:51
So, you know, easy for it to explore this whole network of relationships.
2:54:59
>> Um but also in natural language and with explanations about why everything is what it appears to be.
2:55:06
>> Uh you know, we're seeing it's just a completely different set of use cases.
2:55:11
Uh so that's really interesting to navigate with customers, but everybody's starting to kind of go from wait what uh to of course this is exactly the thing that we should have.
2:55:23
>> What is like the killer feature or experience that you're optimizing for?
2:55:28
Obvious you're you're trying to somebody signs up, they you know sort of integrate whatever tools they need and then like what's the first moment like that you're trying to get people to kind of see the future?
2:55:40
Yeah, I think the most obvious thing is a better version of the meeting recorders that we've come to kind of rely on.
2:55:46
You know, here's this thing, it's watching, it's taking notes, and I don't have to do that on the call because it's all being captured and recorded.
2:55:54
>> Uh, and then from that, you know, I can ask questions about it.
2:55:56
I can, you know, automatically have my deals moving based on what happened on the call. That's really great.
2:56:03
if I want to write follow-up emails, they're incredibly good and the UI is just snapping and moving around as I go through this whole workflow.
2:56:11
That's kind of the entrylevel uh magic trick that people see when they come in.
2:56:17
>> Then there is this much deeper realization that oh wait a second, I can actually ask and understand anything that is happening in the business.
2:56:27
>> Um and and and that you know people get to that pretty quickly, you know, within a week usually.
2:56:30
talk about bottom up adoption versus top down.
2:56:32
Do you want to go for the big enterprise have them rip out some massive system or uh I remember using a product called Streak that just plugged into Gmail.
2:56:42
You know, you could I I I've also built a CRM with Visual Basic in Excel.
2:56:48
Like you you can start a CRM project just in a spreadsheet.
2:56:50
Um how are you thinking about uh where where you want to plug in and start getting traction? >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:56:59
part of our crew built a bunch of streak in addition to uh to >> HubSpot. Wow. >> Yeah.
2:57:05
Um >> it's a cool company.
2:57:06
I I I I enjoyed it at the time.
2:57:07
It was like very like lightweight.
2:57:09
You know, you could just bolt it on basically. >> Totally. Totally. >> Yeah.
2:57:14
>> The adoption story, it's a great question.
2:57:15
You know, we saw over I've been working in CRM for I don't even know what 10 15 years. >> Let's go.
2:57:22
>> And thanks for your service.
2:57:25
>> [laughter] >> the the march of history always seemed to be from the CEO toward the buyer with, you know, a big swing through rep productivity and these bottoms up tools.
2:57:36
And when I kind of moved from the rewrite of the HubSpot marketing product to do a startup, then a startup and the sales tools that became uh HubSpot sales and CRM, that was the thesis, like we're going to go bottoms up.
2:57:47
We're going to do what these other sales acceleration tools are doing.
2:57:50
and that worked really well.
2:57:53
Um, and then you know marching toward the buyer being able to drive as much of the sales process as possible.
2:57:57
I think that still exists and I think that solving for frontline people is absolutely huge and giving them things they can come in get started on day zero. Absolutely.
2:58:08
No big top down roll out.
2:58:11
>> We're also seeing a little bit of a return to the CEO.
2:58:13
And I spend a lot of my time actually I I mean I spend most of my time just demoing at this point other CEOs and showing them how I use it.
2:58:24
>> That's the clo because you can't really say it in I mean we try in our marketing messaging and everything like look at all these examples and everything but if you see me use it you go oh wait okay I got it.
2:58:35
This is like this chief of staff that's watching everything and coaching me and giving me the data and you know we're having it up at a board meeting.
2:58:44
Pat Grady um who I know you guys had on recently that was a great great segment there.
2:58:48
>> He had a tweet today about our last board meeting. >> Yeah.
2:58:51
>> And we just had the assistant up on the big screen. There was no deck.
2:58:55
>> It's like I sent a big memo and I I send a a memo and a context file so the board can ask questions and get instant answers.
2:59:04
>> But we just had the assistant up on the screen the whole time and there's no like, "Oh, that's a great question.
2:59:08
Let me, you know, get my ops people to circle back or it's like which changes things and it's going to be interesting. >> That's amazing.
2:59:16
>> What uh there's so many large software companies that are working to become AI native.
2:59:22
The first step is obviously to say that you're AI native, put it on the website, but what are some of what done what what are what are kind of the challenges having worked in in big CRM uh of of kind of evolving?
2:59:37
Yeah, I mean if you think about it from the perspective of the AI agent and you really, you know, you switch from putting yourself in the user's perspective and you put yourself in the perspective of Claude or one of these clients that is asking questions and calling tools and trying to solve problems for you, you actually want something pretty different.
2:59:59
Um, we had a customer connect their Claude to both HubSpot and Dayai and said, you know, what do you think?
3:00:07
And Claude says, "Are you asking me which I prefer?"
3:00:10
And she's like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm asking which of these do you like more?"
3:00:15
Uh, and Claude says, "Well, look, you know, how do I how do I explain this?
3:00:20
This old CRM is like a spreadsheet, and this day thing is everything that I need to answer any question you have.
3:00:29
question you have. I can find the answer like let's go what do you want to know >> that's a very different approach that gets all the way down to disk >> like literally all the way down to how you are capturing and storing the data having worked on these systems and many
3:00:44
versions of these over the years it it's a problem that starts at the very lowest parts of the stack to be able to give the agents uh you know this kind of information I mean we all know that opus 45 with the right context window can do magical things. I mean, it's godlike. I mean, it's godlike.
3:01:02
So, the question is, how do you give it exactly the right piece? >> That's amazing.
3:01:07
>> I don't think it's God.
3:01:07
I don't think [laughter] it's God.
3:01:08
It's like >> it's like >> Yeah.
3:01:13
It's like a precursor to like we're definitely living in a simulation.
3:01:19
Five is like about to become the thing we think of as our creator.
3:01:21
I think that's like fair to say. >> That's pretty wild.
3:01:23
Uh, you raised some money.
3:01:25
I want to talk about the deal.
3:01:25
I want to kick off the lambda lightning round.
3:01:29
I want to bring down the mallet from the heavens so I can ring the gong for you. How much did you raise?
3:01:37
>> Uh we raised 20 million. >> Whoa.
3:01:43
>> From uh Sequoia and who else?
3:01:46
>> Seoia uh Permanent Capital Conviction >> Sound Ventures and Green Oaks.
3:01:52
>> Fantastic bunch of nobodyies.
3:01:54
>> Quite quite [laughter] the group.
3:01:55
>> That's a fantastic crew.
3:01:55
Congratulations and I'm sure you'll be back on the show soon. We'll talk to you later. >> I hope so. We have a lot coming. >> Can't wait for it.
3:02:04
>> Great to meet you, Christopher. Congratulations team. >> Goodbye.
3:02:08
>> Let me tell you about Century. Century.
3:02:12
Century shows developers what's broken and helps them fix it fast.
3:02:14
That's why 150,000 organ 150,000 organizations use it to keep their apps working.
3:02:19
And >> up next, >> we have Jim. >> Jim from Shield.
3:02:23
Welcome to the TVP and Ultradome. >> What's happening? >> Good to see you. Thank you for having me.
3:02:30
>> It's great to have you here.
3:02:30
Uh quick intro on yourself and what you're working on.
3:02:35
>> Yeah, my name is Jim Ciders.
3:02:35
I'm the CEO of Shield Technology Partners, which is an IT services platform uh in cooperation with Thrive Holdings.
3:02:42
We're bringing it uh powered by AI to all these small and medium businesses all across America.
3:02:48
Finally, that's the goal.
3:02:50
>> We've been begging for this.
3:02:50
No, we've been we've been excited to >> I've been begging for it, too. Like what took so long? That's >> I know. Exactly.
3:02:55
Um so you raised 100 million from Thrive today.
3:02:58
Uh when this has been in the works though for what like 18 months?
3:03:06
>> Uh a little less than that.
3:03:06
I mean it's it's a long-term relationship, right?
3:03:09
Like the whole company was founded in a partnership that included Thrive Holdings at the beginning and which is when I got involved kind of in the conversation long before I joined as CEO.
3:03:18
And all the way through it, we've been thinking about how does uh how does holdings support with the strategic investment this kind of thing, right?
3:03:26
We're building this thing for the long term.
3:03:27
So, we want to make sure that we have the the war chest necessary to do the right stuff now. >> Yeah. Amazing.
3:03:31
What uh what do what do the early customer relationships actually look like?
3:03:37
I know you're buying some existing companies, so you're inheriting uh customer base everywhere you go.
3:03:44
I'm sure you're shedding some and then and then scaling from there.
3:03:48
But uh what is what is the uh in the most simple way, what does a business actually look like?
3:03:52
Uh what does the work look like today?
3:03:55
>> Yeah, hopefully we're shedding as few as possible.
3:03:57
I mean, the idea is we're buying quite good ITMS MSPs all over America who have successful customer bases, um who have long-term relationships with folks, um uh and we're leaving them in place, right?
3:04:12
We're leaving those customers.
3:04:12
We're leaving the people who founded the business, the engineers and technicians who build those relationships.
3:04:16
Then we layer on AI and other proprietary stuff on top of it.
3:04:21
And the whole goal is that those customers are actually clamoring for more, not churning because they just got bought by a their their IT guy just got bought by a private equity firm or something, right?
3:04:30
And so far, to the direct answer to your question, that's been pretty much what we're hearing.
3:04:35
You know, we we hear customers going, "Oh, I heard I heard this thing happened.
3:04:39
Can can you bring some of these Thrive guys over here to talk?
3:04:42
Can you bring some Shield guys over here to talk to us about uh about what we can do with it?
3:04:48
We're curious about it and we've never had access.
3:04:49
That's exactly the point.
3:04:51
That's that's the whole thing we're going after. >> Makes a lot of sense.
3:04:54
>> What uh what how how are you thinking about the broader market and and what companies in the in sort of like the the small and medium-siz business categories are like most ripe for getting leverage out of AI?
3:05:07
we've been tracking, you know, the like the ramp AI adoption metrics.
3:05:12
Obviously, every tech company has a bunch of subscriptions.
3:05:14
Uh, and then you go down the list and it's who you think and it's like the logging company hasn't adopted AI yet, but what what do you think is underrated right now?
3:05:23
>> Well, I mean, the logging company is a great place to start.
3:05:25
I mean, the thesis is on our side, there's a there's a lot of companies in the real economy, Yeah.
3:05:30
>> that would benefit from the same kind of things that's creating, you know, AI creating durable value for large enterprises, right?
3:05:35
The same thing that should help Airbus or Riotinto or whatever should also help like a regional roofing company or or a dentist office chain.
3:05:45
Um, so really the customer selectivity, that's not really where where my emphasis is at this point.
3:05:52
What I'm looking for is the IT service businesses that have built these really durable relationships where we get access to problem spaces that we haven't yet seen in the real economy because there's going to be something that we that falls out of it the lived experience of those IT technicians that we can use in the product motion.
3:06:09
At least that's the >> Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
3:06:11
Can you can you help me understand your thoughts on the like the the customization of software?
3:06:19
Are we going into it feels like we're going into a world where more and more c more and more software will be custom.
3:06:24
There's already big companies that you know Palunteers, Salesforce, these companies go in and they have a backbone but then they're doing a lot of custom implementation.
3:06:33
There's companies you can hire that will build something completely bespoke for you whether that's like a consulting group.
3:06:38
Uh but then typically, you know, if you're buying a piece of SAS off the shelf, they're not really doing anything for you.
3:06:45
But it feels like now they can with a forward deployed uh salesperson, forward deployed engineer.
3:06:49
How are you how do you think about that trend and like how like we're here?
3:06:53
We have like a few vibecoded custom systems uh that you know a small 10person team a few years ago.
3:07:02
We definitely not have um >> I can't tell if we're just early adopters of the technology or if this is the future.
3:07:11
>> Well, there's a few ways I can answer that.
3:07:12
I mean, first I got to confess to a bias, right? Right.
3:07:13
I mean, I was a challenger for a long time for a reason because I think the the combination of first principles thinking and the forward deployed motion >> does yield differentiated results, right?
3:07:24
You can see in that company's results that that's true and in their customers results that that that's true.
3:07:29
>> I think the thing that lets your team benefit from vibe coding a thing that you wouldn't have had access to previously should benefit and can benefit a bunch of different ranges of businesses, right? Yeah.
3:07:41
And really the thing that's been holding anybody back from that is is economic models more than anything, right?
3:07:46
So like if if I'm founding a SAS company, I my investors expect a certain kind of multiple.
3:07:51
We expect a certain type of product motion and go to market motion that I have to develop a product from afar, find a customer for it.
3:08:00
It has to be designed to be salailable, right?
3:08:01
And so at that point if it's not informed really if you didn't get your product management motion really really well right out of the gate it's kind of good luck that it creates durable value for anybody.
3:08:12
Whereas if you do this inside out development motion that we've seen like I was saying creates all this value in the in the large enterprises you can find a way to get access to that same problem space bring that caliber of engineer to the to the work face to the mind face my the thesis is my belief is
3:08:27
that it's going to actually produce the same type of differentiated results which I I think the crisp answer to your question is yeah I think I think customized software like inside out development however you want to call it forward like we forward deploy ourselves to vibe code things like that's I think that is the future. No question. No question.
3:08:45
>> How how is traditional private equity kind of reacting to the to the shields of the world.
3:08:51
>> Uh smart, you know, very sophisticated financially, can raise plenty of money.
3:08:56
They're well aware of AI.
3:08:56
They think it's going to be important.
3:08:58
You're coming in and you're competing to acquire businesses that might have landed with them historically.
3:09:03
I'm imagining you have a very uh a pretty exciting value proposition.
3:09:08
your the team is has an amazing track record, incredibly tapped in, well capitalized.
3:09:14
You're saying like we want to retain your whole team.
3:09:16
We want to keep all of your customers happy are we want to create more value here by by growing the business and growing earnings through just like really expanding the customer base.
3:09:26
So it seems really uh appealing to uh to to the seller of a company, somebody that a business owner.
3:09:33
Uh but of course private equity is not going to just kind of roll over.
3:09:37
Uh how how how have they reacted?
3:09:42
>> Well, I mean I anecdotally it seems to me like they're trying to figure out how to get to this same type of goodness.
3:09:47
I mean I you know I'm not I'm not in private equity so I'm talking out of my wheelhouse.
3:09:53
But I mean, one could see that with the amount of competition in the IT small and medium business space for roll-ups, just traditional private equity roll-ups, one would fear that the goodness is getting harped away somehow.
3:10:06
At least that would be my my fear if I was there.
3:10:08
So, you're looking for something to differentiate it.
3:10:10
So, then there's this kind of growing crop of like what does an IT or like a an AI rollup thing look like?
3:10:15
But everybody's kind of talking about it in a very different way, right?
3:10:18
which is so one of the things that we're trying to do is not exactly do that like we kind of rhyme with that in some ways.
3:10:25
We rhyme with a with a rollup in some ways or we rhyme with a with a a tech company in some ways.
3:10:31
We're trying to do is kind of take the best of breed of all of those mental models and do something a little bit different.
3:10:36
So in our case for example one one easy example of several the relationship with Thrive Holdings gives me a lot longer time horizon, right?
3:10:43
I can think about doing something that's really durable.
3:10:45
Like if we're going to change, it's one thing to create disruption or take advantage of disruption.
3:10:50
If we're going to really change a really entrenched business model like managed IT services, it's probably going to take a long time even if we're outrageously successful, right?
3:11:00
So having that kind of time horizon to work with gives me a way to to address a different thing than any private equity or traditionally, you know, structured private equity role would have to.
3:11:12
>> Um, which deacto is a good thing, I think.
3:11:15
And I think the private equity folks um that are paying attention probably see that also. >> Well, makes sense.
3:11:21
>> Thank you so much for coming on the show.
3:11:22
I want to head on for a hundred million. >> Congratulations. >> Very very cool. Great to meet you.
3:11:29
Uh come back on if if there's something in the news that that you've got a strong opinion on.
3:11:35
Come back on or I'm sure you'll be back on for more fundraising.
3:11:39
>> I'd love to talk to you soon.
3:11:39
Have a good rest of your day. >> Cheers.
3:11:42
Let me tell you about Railway.
3:11:45
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3:11:47
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3:11:54
Up next, without further ad, [laughter] we have Chris Black back on the show. Welcome to the stream.
3:12:03
Thank you so much for taking the time to come on down to the TVP Ultradome. Good to see you. >> Uh, >> how you been?
3:12:11
How's your 2026 going so far? >> So far so good.
3:12:14
I'm happy to be um I feel like I'm radio I feel like I'm the brokeest guy that's ever been on the show. So I'm happy to be here.
3:12:19
I feel like it's going to rub off on me a little bit.
3:12:22
>> The voice alone is worth $10 billion. I hope so. Listen to the pipes.
3:12:27
2026's guy was I stayed out a lot later than I wanted to three nights in a row for celebrations. >> Yeah. Yeah.
3:12:34
>> Well, we're shooting How long Gone stuff, but I was like the timing works out so why don't I just You know what I mean? Why don't I stay?
3:12:39
>> How How does it work for How Long Gone?
3:12:41
Well, you stack >> we don't stack at all. >> Okay.
3:12:45
>> We if we we record on Tuesday, Thursday, and Sunday, and the episodes come out the next day. >> Okay.
3:12:50
>> So, Jason edits it like as basically as soon as we finish, and then it goes up the next day.
3:12:55
>> What's the status of the tour?
3:12:57
>> We just do it sort of whenever.
3:12:57
Like we kind of summer um we're going to do New York and LA probably.
3:13:01
We just sort of recalibrate it cuz it's fun and we like doing it, but I wouldn't say it's a huge uh upside on the bottom line just based on our travel.
3:13:09
uh quality of travel demands into the bottom line profit.
3:13:14
>> We're losing [laughter] it really.
3:13:18
>> No, no, that makes sense.
3:13:18
But uh the the the the live show you've prepared sort of a presentation some more thought.
3:13:24
It's not just riffing, right?
3:13:25
>> Well, this actually Yeah.
3:13:25
LA like last summer we prepared the How long guide to life, which is like a PDF presentation. That's cool. >> And it worked. It was fun.
3:13:31
And we did it like standing up like TED style. Yeah.
3:13:35
>> Um but the riffing >> Did you ever give a TED talk? >> No. I wish.
3:13:38
God, imagine with the mic.
3:13:41
>> No, no, when you look at something, you think of the TED talk era in hindsight, there's so so much opportunity to like go back and just like >> sign get get yourself a TED talk and deliver the most like ridiculous >> cuz if you look through it, there's there's some it ain't a list. >> No.
3:13:56
Well, well, so so they had they had TED >> farming TED.
3:13:59
>> So, so TED X was independent, so anyone could set one up.
3:14:02
>> I didn't realize it was independent. >> Yes. Yes. Yes.
3:14:04
So, so they they they they sort of licensed their brand and anyone so they would do like TEDx Boston University and it would just be like a local kid that was like organizing and being like come talk and it and and depending on how much they put into production it could either look a lot like the TED stage or just like a couple people in a conference room. Yeah.
3:14:23
Basically open night and those I didn't know that. >> Yeah. No.
3:14:25
And and aesthetically those don't hit >> for the LinkedIn crowd. >> Yeah. No. No.
3:14:28
and and and so I remember think I went to one in Boston with a guy who created Android who probably should be giving like a real TED talk. That's kind of cool.
3:14:37
But he was basically just giving a tech talk with a couple other people.
3:14:39
Here's my thoughts on open source software, whatever.
3:14:41
Uh but it was just him filmed like three chairs in a conference room against the wall.
3:14:45
So even if you see it and it says TEDex, you're like that doesn't feel like a TED talk.
3:14:50
But certain places would put the red dot on the ground, give you the mic, you'd be walking around, have the Q cards and everything and I think it's wild.
3:14:57
The best one I ever saw that appealed to me was Mark Ronson cuz he like broke down how like a beat is made basically for all these nerds and I could see their third eye expanding in a way that's like holy this is actually so interesting and cool.
3:15:09
Um but most of those were not for me.
3:15:12
I can't say I devoured the catalog [laughter] on on the YouTube on the YouTube channel.
3:15:17
I can't I can't I can't state claim on that. >> Yeah.
3:15:20
What were you devouring at the time?
3:15:21
This was like '08 2010 era. >> Mostly cocaine.
3:15:24
But I mean I I guess [laughter] there's I guess there's some I was probably I was going out a lot.
3:15:31
That was like New York era.
3:15:31
I I feel like that was honestly like music blog that was that I was more of like a stereogum pitchfork Brooklyn vegan like sort of like that which is kind of back now weird.
3:15:43
>> I mean we went to the Pitchfork party this weekend.
3:15:44
It was one of the best parties at the Grammy. It was really fun. Yeah.
3:15:47
>> And I think that it's like I don't know if you guys are up on the payw wall discourse around Pitchfork, but they basically put up a payw wall >> and the the crux of it to my understanding is that you can basically you can rate albums.
3:16:01
>> So famously the appeal of Pitchfork is the numerical score.
3:16:04
>> Numerical score but sort of brutal, right?
3:16:06
Sometimes they'll give someone like a four out of 10. >> Yes.
3:16:08
But sometimes the often times the score doesn't necessarily match the actual review, but no one's going to read the actual, you know what I mean? the head.
3:16:15
So it could be like a five, but then you read it and it's like, "Oh, it's not that bad."
3:16:18
Actually, there's a little bit of a disconnect sometimes.
3:16:23
So, they're giving people the option, which I'm pretty bullish on because I think that everyone on the internet thinks they're an expert or critic and thinks they need to be heard.
3:16:31
It's like the letter box sort of thing.
3:16:32
And I think that there's plenty of >> Rotten Tomatoes has the tomato meter.
3:16:37
Metacritic has the audience.
3:16:38
>> There's plenty of like mouth breathing music fans that think that they should be able to rate the My Morning Jacket record how they feel.
3:16:45
You can't underestimate the passion of these civilians. >> You pay them.
3:16:48
They send you a text file.
3:16:50
You can write whatever you want about my morning jacket. >> They print it out.
3:16:54
>> If you want 10 out of 10, we'll just show that right.
3:16:57
>> It was a controversial idea, but I think it's actually quite smart cuz it doesn't it doesn't like the critic part of it is still going to be there.
3:17:03
So, it doesn't dilute the overall, you know what I mean?
3:17:06
It's just things a little bit to me.
3:17:07
But, it's but it's, you know, the it's a elevated comment section in some ways, which is a scary thing to consider. our world.
3:17:13
Uh Davos came back just this year. Sure. Is South by South?
3:17:18
They should have had you at Davos for sure. >> Yeah, we were.
3:17:20
Yeah, that's we're open to that if Davos is listening.
3:17:23
>> Any hope for South by Southwest making a comeback? Any other conferences?
3:17:28
>> South by Southwest has actually done pretty well because they pivoted to like internet You know, it's not about it's not bands playing sponsored by Sparks at 3:00 in the afternoon.
3:17:35
Now it's like a little more serious and there's a film aspect to it.
3:17:38
Um, I think it's just moved away from music. Yeah. A little bit.
3:17:43
Like, it's still a part of it, but it's more of an element instead of a >> focus.
3:17:45
I'm just wondering if it comes back and they and they really play into the music.
3:17:49
>> I just think that I just think that it's sort of I I mean, there's a possibility only because I think right now we're seeing a real swing back to like guitar music. Okay.
3:17:57
>> Because I mean, >> guitar lowkey fell off.
3:18:00
>> Lowkey fell [laughter] off hard. Not even low key.
3:18:02
I would say high key fell off.
3:18:03
And I think the diff now that that >> somebody was telling me a buddy was at like a Guitar Center the other day and he sold out >> in Hollywood. >> No guitars left. >> No, no.
3:18:11
He said it was like every single guitar was like on a crazy sale.
3:18:17
>> That's probably like a Q4 glut, you know, but I was like I just remember being a kid like wanting like like I I played guitar like you know every single day growing up and all these guitars that like were just so out of reach.
3:18:30
Now I'm now I I I don't know. I can see it.
3:18:33
It's the perfect analog like I mean it's like anything else.
3:18:38
It's sort of like >> I mean music always goes in phases like that, you know, like not generationally but maybe like by decade I would say.
3:18:45
And I think the chart thing even though I hate to pay attention to it or like streaming numbers or whatever.
3:18:49
It's real, you know, like there hasn't been a hip-hop song in the top 10 or something for like it's an interesting thing that's happening. And the geese of it all.
3:18:56
>> Wait, isn't SDK kid top 10? I assume. >> No, no, no.
3:18:59
He's he's he's still >> based on Instagram algorithm.
3:19:01
I mean, that's the thing. There's no monoculture.
3:19:04
So, it's sort of like you see what you want to see to some extent, but I think that the the geese is the big sort of thing that people are talking about because it's culturally so relevant and it's making people mad in a way that's like sort of exciting.
3:19:15
Like, people hate it as much as they like it.
3:19:18
>> Tell me more about the story.
3:19:19
>> I mean, Geese is a band from New York that's put out a couple records that are really young and it's it's just really polarizing.
3:19:24
I mean, it's like this guy Cameron Winter is the singer.
3:19:25
He's a like he put out a solo record.
3:19:27
He's a generational sort of talent.
3:19:29
It's sort of like a Neil Young, Tom York, but they played SNL and people were very mad.
3:19:35
Like this is the worst I've ever seen.
3:19:36
But then >> they just didn't like the way it sounded. >> Yeah.
3:19:39
I mean, look how they sound the whole, you know, >> Del Ray had a similar SNL experience, right?
3:19:43
>> It happens often because SNL is I mean that's as middle of the road as you're going to get viewer >> wise.
3:19:48
But but it seems like some of their content booking is like a little ahead of their curve.
3:19:52
They're they're usually I mean they're good in general at at taking a few risks.
3:19:56
For every Cardi B and Mumford and Sons, there's a geese that sort of like they take a swing and that's what they're known for.
3:20:04
>> I mean, we sound like Boomer.
3:20:04
I mean, I get called a boomer for watching SNL.
3:20:07
Um, and I will take that. I I deserve that lump. I think it's real.
3:20:12
>> What uh what happens to what happens to late night shows in general?
3:20:14
I feel like they thrived in a when you had a monoculture, you had the whole world fixated on uh the same types of things.
3:20:23
Now it's like you turn it on and you you realistically to like appeal to the broad enough audience, you got to have >> it's impossible.
3:20:30
>> 20 night 20 20 shows that were taking the place of and the internet sort of does that.
3:20:35
But >> I think it's I mean I think it as much as I have a respect for and love to replace them in some ways, uh I think it's sort of >> it we're at the end.
3:20:43
I mean, I think that like celebrities need places to promote their projects and that is not going to go away, but there's like this and that gets more eyeballs and is feels more relevant.
3:20:52
And I think that like you can go on Dak Shepard and it's going to do more for your movie or your album or your book than it is to go on Steven Coar. That's just the reality.
3:21:03
And it's like >> I'm more concerned with the loss of the music performances cuz I think NPR Tiny Desk is like corny. Yeah.
3:21:08
But and I think there's I spend a lot of time on YouTube watching like performances from the '90s '8s whatever and I think that magic is what >> but you can reconstitute that on the internet.
3:21:19
I feel like you >> Why don't you guys I mean we No, we're trying to do it and we've talked about it a lot and I think it's it's a it's easy in theory.
3:21:25
>> There's nothing that says that Dak Shepard can't open with a monologue have three guests and then a musical performance and then just >> musical performance would be kid rock. That's the problem. >> Okay.
3:21:33
But but you do something different.
3:21:34
But but but just the fact that it's an RSS hour this I I I feel like you guys getting like a space like this in New York like where it's full-time dedicated people are coming to you will change uh we gave this advice to some of our other buddies that have had a podcast for a really long time.
3:21:53
We're like dude it's kind of a nightmare having to like travel around and all and like you know constantly on the move.
3:21:58
We we're we only do audio really and I think we've I'm here we branch out.
3:22:03
We did like a year in review Yeah. and it did really well.
3:22:05
So now we're going to try to do the we have a studio in Burbank and we shoot these sort of like weekend update talk soup style sort of like monthly wrap-ups where it's you know it's us at the desk.
3:22:16
We're talking about stuff.
3:22:16
You see the image over our shoulder and that's going to I think that's what we want to do. >> Yeah.
3:22:20
Turn it into bring have a small live audience.
3:22:22
Have have like a stage that people can perform on. >> That's the idea.
3:22:27
start doing it live >> and it's just I mean it's just it's it's all about scheduling.
3:22:31
But what we've learned from doing the podcast is audio only is that you just get access.
3:22:34
Also, we don't ever we're never in the same room. It's all on Zoom.
3:22:38
And I think it just allows a different like it gets looser.
3:22:43
I think the guest is >> it feels much more protected.
3:22:46
>> There's no hair and makeup.
3:22:46
There's no you need to send a car.
3:22:47
There's no there's no like pretense to it.
3:22:49
Like you can do it in your hotel room wherever you are as long as you have Wi-Fi and headphones.
3:22:53
And I I the same way we're sort of like anti-paywall and it's costing me a lot of money.
3:22:58
It's a similar thing where like audio is the real medium.
3:23:01
It's like all these new Netflix things. >> Yeah.
3:23:04
>> Like Pete Davidson having a talk show on Netflix is not a podcast.
3:23:06
It's a talk show on Netflix.
3:23:07
It's not >> there's no audio. There's no RSS feed. It's not >> Yeah.
3:23:12
I mean he's they're doing a lot of the I mean they're they're >> they're showing podcasts that exist like from the ringer, but they're also launching these shows and paying these people a fortune.
3:23:21
>> But it's it's just a show.
3:23:21
Have you ever thought about selling out?
3:23:25
>> I would [laughter] look I would love to sell out.
3:23:26
It just has to be on my like archaic.
3:23:30
I would love to sell out every [laughter] day.
3:23:31
I want to sell extremely complex rider.
3:23:34
>> When I'm here when I'm here I'm like this is how it's supposed to be done.
3:23:37
Like this is such an operation.
3:23:37
And I knew what I was getting into to an extent.
3:23:40
But being here I'm like, "Oh, this is what it requires to do something on this level." And it's it's a lot. >> You need a horse. >> Yeah.
3:23:46
You need a something about it guys eating air. >> Instrument.
3:23:50
[laughter] The guys told me how much the thing costs.
3:23:51
I was like, I can't believe you guys spent that much. They're expensive.
3:23:55
>> I actually knew that very expensive.
3:23:57
>> There's something about uh that that we appreciate the like some people would say it's monotonous, but I actually appreciate just waking up and going to work.
3:24:05
[laughter] >> Just like making content.
3:24:08
>> No, I think I think I think treating it like that and the way you guys have treated it and the way you've approached it is why it works.
3:24:12
There's there's a level and and we feel the same way.
3:24:13
It's like we do three shows a week, which is pretty psycho.
3:24:17
Yeah, I mean considering you're not in the same place.
3:24:22
I mean, Jason edits an I book. We do it all ourselves.
3:24:24
But I think that the I think that once you lock into a system like that and people are looking for it and expecting it and you deliver on that, they stay with you.
3:24:31
They want I mean you guys are doing news and like you're really covering like a a breath of industries. So it's different.
3:24:37
There's like a value proposition of like information which I think is much more than us talking about, you know, >> the culture. Yeah.
3:24:43
Uh what what so uh Grammys last night you've been in town hanging out uh bumping shoulders with uh >> rubbing elbows elite.
3:24:54
Uh what are the conver outside of culture war and politics?
3:24:57
What are people talking about like how much is like AI being discussed is specifically in the music context?
3:25:05
I mean, I think that musicians are mad about everything all the time, sort of.
3:25:09
Uh, even even the most successful ones.
3:25:12
Um, that's part of the personality makeup, I think, to be that.
3:25:16
I mean, I think that fear is real, and I think every day there's a new story that there's some anonymous AI guy that just made $5 million streaming, you know, or whatever through through Spotify royalties.
3:25:26
I mean, I think the real conversation that's that's being had or that I've seen a little bit of is is people coming out and saying, "No, no, I use it to help me edit or do this and it's sped up the process, you know, 10 10x." Totally.
3:25:39
>> And I think it's like anything else, man. It's like, it's coming. >> Yep.
3:25:42
>> How can you how can you utilize it in a way that feels ethical and good to you that doesn't compromise the art?
3:25:46
And I think that's that's the challenge everybody has.
3:25:50
And I'm sure there's going to be people that are like, "Fuck that. I'm never doing that."
3:25:53
And there's going to be people that adapt and there's going to be, you know, like a will I am type who takes it too far.
3:25:56
And that, you know, there's a r there's always a range of people that want to experiment.
3:26:01
But I think that that I think with music there's ticket prices.
3:26:06
There's, you know, royal streaming royalties.
3:26:07
There's so many battles that they're fighting all the time that it's sort of I almost feel like AI is kind of like feels like it's in the distance a little bit honestly because there's things I mean it's it's coming but I think there's so many immediate things that they're concerned with as far as sort of you know just like respect and money. >> Yeah.
3:26:24
>> Yeah. Is there is there uh some sort of alliance between like reaction to streaming is you need a really strong live performance schedule the concert becomes more important creating like the Taylor Swift effect becomes more important >> it's almost what's so cra well the real
3:26:41
driver is is Tik Tok okay >> like if you have I mean I've had several friends that were relatively successful musicians in the as have a song go viral and now they have a platinum record they bought an apartment they're on tour selling that and you can't plan for that. The
3:26:55
The labels can't manufacture.
3:26:56
That's sort of God's plan.
3:26:59
>> And or but like Olivia Dean who won best new artist last night.
3:27:02
>> People say she sounds like TJ Maxx. I I like it. I think it's a hit. It's a hit song.
3:27:06
But but part of it is that it it became a Tik Tok thing.
3:27:08
And it's like >> it's that good. You need more things.
3:27:12
You know, it has to be a a multitude of things kind of coming together to make it work.
3:27:16
Um >> but I think I think touring is just people I just wrote this in my GQ column.
3:27:21
I wrote about the Harry Styles ticket price thing cuz people are really upset.
3:27:23
His tickets are expensive and >> everybody's tickets are expensive.
3:27:28
>> Second market uh secondary market.
3:27:29
>> He's doing 30 days at Madison Square Garden.
3:27:31
He's doing 30 nights at MSG. He's doing 30 days. So long.
3:27:35
>> It's unbel and MSG is also historically the most expensive venue because of unions and all that.
3:27:39
>> You think that you think that with 30 days of supply ticket sales?
3:27:42
>> Well, that's the that's the question is people are like he's greedy and I'm like well sure.
3:27:46
I think there's some truth to that, but also I think the discussion I'm interested in having is like what do you guys want?
3:27:51
Like because he can fight ticket master like Pearl Jam.
3:27:52
He can but he can also the production that fans want costs a lot of money.
3:27:58
When Harry Styles on tour, he's got 30 trucks with him.
3:28:02
It's a lot of it's 300 people. It's a you know circus.
3:28:06
It's really >> And I think that the cost that go into it is sort of lost in the fan.
3:28:09
But then from the fan side they're like this is untenable.
3:28:13
Like I can't pay this much.
3:28:13
I have >> what what's the cheapest ticket?
3:28:17
>> I mean, in theory, it's $100, $200, >> but it's immediately reselling. >> That's the issue.
3:28:22
>> But then that just proves that it doesn't really matter where he prices it, the demand will be.
3:28:26
>> That's my that was my whole kind of thesis.
3:28:28
>> So, yeah, you basically could just It's like if like look at the secondary price and then look at what he's charging and like greedy would just be charging the secondary price.
3:28:37
We see we see this every, you know, look in cars and watches, any any category with way more demand than supply, >> manufacturers will just be like, "Wait, like this GT3 RS is selling for like 50k over sticker."
3:28:49
Like, okay, we're just going to do that at the dealer level now.
3:28:52
now. or secondary look at AP AP moves up the the retail on on the Royal Oak just cuz there was enough demand and like it actually kind of like normalizes the secondary market but but you're still paying like >> I just think if you think that I think if you need to place blame on someone
3:29:10
it's going to be the resellers the bots and ticket master like I don't necessarily think it's Harry it's my point is it's not Harry Styles and sure maybe he could put his foot down and and like make a case but we don't know the ins and outs of that the difficult ulties of that or how that would actually affect the product. You know You know what I mean?
3:29:24
And that's the that's the issue.
3:29:26
>> So you think the solution is NFTs?
3:29:28
>> Always the [laughter] solution to any problem is NFTs.
3:29:29
That that is for 100% fact. That's 100% fact.
3:29:33
>> What uh what's going on?
3:29:33
Give us an updated just broad update on men's wear. We don't talk about it.
3:29:40
>> We don't talk about We don't talk about it much.
3:29:41
We obviously normally wear suits.
3:29:44
>> I I actually >> I got the memo today. >> I I was It's funny.
3:29:46
>> I I was It's funny. Hey, I wore a suit to Charlie had a a party last night at Chateau Marmont and I wore a suit and we Charlie XCX and we had to record this morning >> our thing and we but Jason and I both usually wear suits >> and I text him like hey man maybe today can we not can we just wear [laughter]
3:30:00
regular couldn't do it and I um honestly it's getting a little more formal in a way that I think is really positive like it's sort of logo mania is over I think it's a little bit of like >> Jonath showing ties like it's a little more sort of suiting and like stuff that I think is more flattering and generally easier to wear in a lot of ways. Like I think like you
3:30:21
Like I think like you guys can wear suits, you guys cannot wear like dumb Balenciaga or whatever. You know what I mean?
3:30:27
Like we thought about you can you can do it if you want. I don't know.
3:30:32
>> We had the John John made this this image.
3:30:34
It was like a steal steal his look image and he's like [laughter] >> $100,000 outfit.
3:30:38
Chrome hearts hat, chrome heart belt supreme with the Louis Vuitton.
3:30:43
Then Bayga Vanetta Roman weave jacket.
3:30:47
>> What level of what is your How much chrome knowledge do you two have? >> Zero. I know nothing. >> John had zero.
3:30:52
I just >> I thought all of these brands were always >> I found out that Balenciaga is like an old company.
3:31:00
I thought it was like a new thing from like a couple years ago.
3:31:02
Hundreds of euros from >> So So when I moved to Malibu, I I I would always I I I will be I'll admit I didn't know nothing about Chrome.
3:31:10
And uh >> I love that you have a G Wagon, don't you?
3:31:14
You don't know about >> Chrome somehow.
3:31:15
It's kind of like kind of a connection.
3:31:18
>> Hey, I'm a I'm unique. I'm a special snowflake.
3:31:20
[laughter] I'm the only G Wagon owner that doesn't.
3:31:25
>> So I moved to Malibu and I'm like, why are all these kids It's the younger generation.
3:31:29
So Malibu, the the owners of Chrome Hearts have lived in Malibu forever.
3:31:33
>> Starks have so so they own the Surf Rider now, which is also interesting. But I moved there.
3:31:38
I'm like, "Why are all these like 12 12-year-old like kids running around wearing chrome?
3:31:42
Like, you live at the beach.
3:31:43
Why are you wearing like this like gothic like black sweatshirt?" It made no sense.
3:31:47
I was like, "Lighten up a little bit."
3:31:48
Cuz I just always associate the clothing with like kind of just emo darkness all >> You You got it wrong, bro.
3:31:55
You You need some chrome.
3:31:57
You guys need So, the jeans, >> we can get you some jeans. $15,000.
3:32:02
Look, [laughter] >> depends.
3:32:04
So, it's a >> That's right.
3:32:05
It's a custom pair of Levis's, but they put the leather cross patches.
3:32:09
So, depending on patch amount, the price is going up.
3:32:11
So, I would do something tasteful with all the chrome rivets and maybe a single patch.
3:32:14
So, one patch, one patch, >> you guys need hella patches, you guys.
3:32:21
This is why I always said, so I always said that the top of the market cycle >> will be when a kid is standing YC demo day, you know, where the all the founders pitch and he's got [laughter] all just full.
3:32:34
No, I don't think it's happened yet.
3:32:34
Was there some CEO that was caught with a Chrome Hearts jacket? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
3:32:39
There there there's definitely been uh some some people have think they can be sneaky and be like, "Oh, yeah.
3:32:44
I'm just like I'm just a founder. I'm scrappy."
3:32:46
And they're wearing the leather jacket without the logos and people clock it.
3:32:49
Like, we know what you're doing. Yeah. I need to get you guys. Yeah.
3:32:53
But as far [laughter] as as far as um as far as the men's wear thing goes, everything's sort of calmed down, which I think is good.
3:32:58
down, which I think is good. I mean I start I literally I started a brand at the end of last year um that I've been working on for a couple years called handover and it's been an interesting someone who's worked peripher you know in fashion for 10 years 15 years >> doing your own thing is uh a whole
3:33:13
different animal I will say but our our proposition is everything is really affordable it's all made in USA so it's like we're all we're making it in LA um but it's really simple but >> yeah I've been shocked cuz we make we make stuff uh we like this is something you know we made for Turuff for one of our sponsors. >> Yeah, there was no comparing clothing.
3:33:30
>> Yeah, there was no comparing clothing. >> Yeah.
3:33:32
So, comparing comparing the prices in China versus here, uh, China is incredibly they make great clothing that's inexpensive.
3:33:41
But when you look when I when we've gone kind of like line by line and looked at these different items, I'm like, okay, I could pay $70 for this and it gets made here in LA and it'll be done in 3 weeks or I can deal with like months and months.
3:33:57
>> It might come on a boat.
3:33:57
It might it'll come Yeah, it'll come on a boat and it'll cost like $95 for us.
3:34:02
For us, there's like no question we want to make it here because we're not in the business of clothing, right?
3:34:09
So, the margin is like less.
3:34:10
>> It's negligible to but still it's not it's not as like it's not like a 10x difference, which I think a lot of people assume.
3:34:16
I think that I I mean I think that I came up in an era where that was important.
3:34:20
Like Made in USA was important and I don't I don't necessarily think it's important per se, but the idea of being able to do it was pretty compelling. >> But it's Yeah.
3:34:28
It's it's it's more enjoyable.
3:34:30
That's why I've always thought people >> see the process. >> Yeah.
3:34:33
And like the people that are like drop shippers being like, "Oh yeah, like ecom is so great if you want to like live in Thailand."
3:34:38
I'm like, "Have you ever made anything?"
3:34:40
ever made anything?" Like can you imagine like trying to iterate on like a physical product living in like some random >> that's what I mean that's the thing that's I think that's the thing that you're right it's like what's the what's it worth you know my time and my effort and my stress level like what is it
3:34:54
worth um but it's it's been fun so far and it's going well but I think it's just like a >> what's the what's the what's the strate like doing collections it's quarterly yeah but it's basically I mean the start was t-shirts denim sweats and the denim did really well we're going to introduce another fit so it's it's sort Like you do stuff, you see what works. >> It's at that 15,000 price point.
3:35:13
>> It's at that 15,000 price point.
3:35:14
>> It's 15,000 price point.
3:35:14
Actually, it's currently sub 300.
3:35:17
Oh, >> everything which is pretty strong 15,000.
3:35:22
Then you can buy something. >> I love it.
3:35:23
Uh, we have to get to a flight.
3:35:25
I don't know if you want to plant the bomb, Jordy, but I have one last question. Dream guest.
3:35:28
Do you have dream guests?
3:35:30
We don't really have dream guests cuz it's very opportunistic.
3:35:31
It's like whoever's hot right now we want to talk to.
3:35:34
So, we don't have a list.
3:35:34
But lately, honestly, I I always like to say I like to be surprised, but after Ben Affleck has been on this press tour with Matt Damon for that new movie. He's so smart. He's so well spoken.
3:35:45
I would really like to talk to Ben Affleck. >> Handover-us. >> Go check it out.
3:35:50
Give us five stars on Apple Podcast and Spotify.
3:35:53
>> We will be live tomorrow from Cisco AI Summit 11 a. m. Pacific sharp. >> And goodbye. >> Thank you. >> Nice work, brothers.
3:36:02
I'll see you on the next one.