0:00
There's such a thing as knowing too much.
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You've been married to the president of the United States who knows everything about everything in the world.
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Sometimes you just A phenomenally successful author, please welcome the former first lady of these United States, Michelle Obama.
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I don't want people looking at me and Barack like #couplesgoals. No, no.
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There are some broken things that happen even in the best of marriages.
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What is the thing that keeps you up at night now?
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The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty.
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The one, the only Jay Shetty.
1:00
Michelle, thank you so much for joining me on purpose. This is such an honor.
1:05
I'm so grateful to have you here. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm a fan.
1:06
Oh, that's That is That That means more to me than you know. Thank you so much.
1:11
And I'll dive straight in.
1:13
What is the best part about being you?
1:15
I have never thought about that.
1:18
That is a great question.
1:20
I think my family, my friendships, I think one of the things that Barack and I we always talk about is that we're proud of the fact that we've kept our community.
1:32
You know, people that we've known all our lives are still a part of that community that keeps us solid and keeps us whole and grounded.
1:40
It's easy to lose your head on this journey that we've been on and I think what keeps us focused is that we've had we have some solid people in our lives and we make it a point to cultivate those relationships and to learn to be intentional about them.
2:01
And I think that that's probably one of the coolest things is that, you know, I've got this big kitchen table of people who keep me focused and and keep me honest.
2:11
Uh what's the longest friendship then, non-family? Like what's the Oh. in years would you say?
2:15
The longest friendship, I mean, gosh, childhood friendships I I still have.
2:25
I've sort of picked up friends throughout every part of my life.
2:27
You know, I've got one or two.
2:29
I've got the high school friends that I keep in touch with, the college friends, the law school friends, you know, so you sort of gather people throughout.
2:39
Um and I've I've had a lot of people who've sort of just hung in there Yeah.
2:45
before we were the Obamas. Yeah. How how does that work?
2:51
I feel like so many people who are on their journey, a lot of us don't take steps forward because we're scared of what our friends will think.
2:59
Some of us get carried away with success and ego and pride goes to your head and then you alienate people.
3:03
Sometimes it's envy and jealousy from everyone else who didn't join you on the journey.
3:08
How do you navigate a multi-decade level friendship when everyone is going through so much?
3:16
What are the kind of key milestones in maintaining that kitchen table?
3:20
You know, I I talk about this journey like climbing Mount Everest.
3:25
You start Not that I've ever done that, by the way.
3:27
But what I've heard about climbing Mount Everest is that you you start out at base camp and then you hit these summits along the way.
3:35
And everybody starts out the journey ready, you know?
3:38
They think, "I'm going to make it to the top."
3:40
And then you start the climb and some people are ready for it and some people aren't.
3:47
And it's surprising that you learn along the climb who's really ready.
3:52
And there are people who just emotionally, physically can't go the whole way.
3:58
They run out of oxygen, you know, they weren't fit for the climb, right?
4:03
And one of the hardest things is like when you discover that, I mean, do you do you stop?
4:08
Do you go back because there was one member that wasn't ready?
4:13
Or do you keep climbing and sort of leave them where they are?
4:17
And we found that that's been the the pattern, right?
4:22
There are people who have been they they were built for the climb like we were and some weren't.
4:26
And I I find that I I talk to young people about this, too, because when you're a kid coming from nothing, um, and I won't say that I came from nothing, but Barack nor I came from wealth or connection or fame or fortune.
4:46
Um, so we have a hodgepodge of people in our lives and one of the toughest things is to find out that a dear friend wasn't ready for the climb.
4:53
And in order to keep pressing forward, we tell young people that sometimes you got to leave them there.
5:01
Because you can't carry people when you're trying to get to the top.
5:03
Um, it slows you down, um, but there's, you know, survivor's remorse that comes with it.
5:11
And I know there you know, a lot of times when I talk to kids and I see them well up, I see in them that struggle.
5:18
That they've reached a point where they've left people they love behind and they struggle to figure out how to weather or how to maintain those connections and it becomes hard and it's draining.
5:30
You know, kids, for example, who got the opportunity to go to college when half their family isn't eating. Yes. Right?
5:37
And they've got a student loan and they need to use that loan to pay for their books, but they're trying to send money back home to pay the electric bill.
5:46
And I tell those kids like if you want to make it, you've got to make some hard choices about what to do with your life or you will not make the climb yourself. And then everyone loses.
5:57
And then everybody loses.
5:57
And I think that's how we've had to look at it.
6:02
We've been fortunate enough that we've had so many people who were ready for the climb.
6:06
They had to adjust, they had to go back and do a little working out, but for the most part they've made it.
6:11
But for the people who couldn't, we had to leave them behind and keep climbing.
6:16
And if once we made it to the top, if we could reach back and pull some others up, we definitely did that.
6:20
It is one of the greatest challenges when you were pursuing a life that is drastically different from the one that you come from.
6:31
Is there such a thing as a graceful end?
6:33
Well, it depends on who's doing the ending, right? Yes.
6:38
Sometimes, you know, sometimes I say there's such a thing as the slow ghost.
6:44
You know, where you just sort of let relationships take their natural course.
6:52
Friendships and relationships kind of tell you when they're ready. Yeah, that's so true.
6:55
And you have to kind of listen to it.
6:59
You you learn as you get older.
7:01
You know, sometimes you held on too long, you let some, you know, bad juju stay around too too long.
7:07
And as you get older you you can recognize, right?
7:13
I've always approached life and friendships and I try to tell my daughters this too is stay open. Mhm.
7:22
Stay open to the possibility of people.
7:24
I never want my daughters and I never wanted to feel so high that I was closed off and suspicious.
7:29
You know, not wanting to let new people in, right?
7:32
And that becomes very difficult when you're the president and the first lady.
7:36
You know, you could you know, close your life off so much, right?
7:41
Because everyone might want something from you. Totally.
7:46
But I always felt like, well, that's a loss.
7:48
You know, because if you close everybody out, then you miss some gems. Mhm.
7:54
We've tried to be open and find ways to let new people in our lives and develop new relationships.
8:00
And what I tell my kids is trust your gut.
8:04
Because you'll know when people should be let out.
8:09
But keep keep your aperture wide open. Mhm.
8:13
Let people in, but when they show you who they are, let them out quickly. Mhm.
8:18
And you as older you get, you you know, it's like, yeah, that wasn't that this one isn't working out.
8:24
So, let's just cut it quick, but stay open. Mhm.
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And you're naturally going to make mistakes.
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You're naturally going to get hurt. Absolutely. So true. So true.
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That's going to happen, but it's better to be aware, note down the lesson, but be open in the first place because being closed is worse.
8:42
You You miss you miss out on the goodness, the possibility, the opportunity, the the new, right?
8:50
And I never want to miss out on the new.
8:54
I I'd rather keep give people the benefit of of the doubt, bring them in, and and let them disappoint me.
9:01
It's like I I can deal with disappointment.
9:03
I can be I can I can get over hurt. Mhm.
9:07
But I don't want to lose the possibility of someone special coming in. Wow.
9:12
That's the greater trade-off. That's so powerful.
9:15
And it's proven to be the right approach.
9:18
You know, we we've just met some wonderful people along this journey, and gosh, if I had closed myself off to that, I oh, I think of the friendships, the influences that I wouldn't have had.
9:31
So, I want my girls to stay open, you know?
9:36
I want them to open people.
9:36
Yes, I had a mentor in London probably around 10 years ago and he devised this set of questions that gives you your personality type and there's so many tests like this.
9:48
But his was really interesting and it's very aligned with your thinking.
9:51
So and he also had types where we'd get locked and he'd call this CSC.
9:56
He said the more closed, the more specific and the more controlling you get, Mhm.
10:04
the less you're able to actually connect, grow, evolve, learn.
10:07
And he would always say as you're saying, the more open, random, and supportive you are, the more likely you are to be able to invite people into your life at different times.
10:16
And I I love hearing that because that.
10:19
Yeah, it was yeah, that change from closed select oh, closed, selective, and controlling to open, random, and supportive.
10:25
He was saying, you never know, you could have a random interaction with someone that could be the most beautiful lesson of your life.
10:31
And And I also felt that, you know, when you're the president of the United States and the First Lady, you have to be open. Mhm.
10:38
You have to be open to all the possibilities.
10:40
You can't live in your fortress and govern the people, right?
10:46
And I think we benefited from the fact that we had to figure out how to be regular people in the White House because we had kids in school.
10:52
And so, we couldn't become just White House people.
10:58
We had to get to know that community and go to parent-teacher conference and make friends with other parents because we wanted our kids' lives to be normal.
11:06
But that in a way kept me connected with people and what they were really feeling and what their challenges were and it keeps me open and empathetic to people because I'm engaged and I'm not sitting in my castle looking out at everybody else. Mhm. Absolutely.
11:25
So, I found it particularly necessary in our role.
11:30
Yeah, so that's the best thing. That's beautiful.
11:31
What has been the worst or the hardest part about being you?
11:34
Well, I think it's the flip side of that coin of that when you're on the top of Mount Everest, it can be isolating and dystopic in a way.
11:45
You know, I think one of the greatest things that we've learned to appreciate in this role and I I tell young people this, especially young people who think they want fame, you know, it's like, do you know what that is?
12:00
You know, are you grasping for something that you have no idea or your parents pushing you towards this thing?
12:07
Is that when you become famous, well-known, you lose your anonymity.
12:12
That's a tough thing to lose. price. Right?
12:15
It's a huge price, right?
12:15
The natural everyday thing of of sitting and being able to sit in the world and observe it Mhm.
12:23
and not be observed, right?
12:26
I mean Wow, that's a really interesting way of putting it, yeah.
12:31
yeah, just sort of sitting in a park and watching the world happen with nobody pulling you out of it, right?
12:38
The simple walk through a park or standing in line at the grocery store and overhearing life.
12:47
We don't have that, you know, we don't have spontaneity in the same way and that's a hard thing to lose. Mhm.
12:56
Now, here's the thing, fortunately we lost it we lost it in our 40s.
13:02
I just think of kids who are reaching for it not knowing that you you're about to lose a really valuable thing.
13:08
You want to you're striving to lose it and you're only 18, 20.
13:13
You don't want to lose your anonymity.
13:16
You don't want to trade that off for anything in the world because once you lose it, you lose a a more. We've adjusted, right? Because we're adults.
13:28
So, yes, I can figure out how to make one move, go on a walk, visit a friend, but I have to call like 12 people, and I have to think about the movements, and security has to be lined up.
13:42
We can't do the ordinary things of life, you know, go to a movie theater or I joked at COVID when people asked when we were all in quarantine, how did it feel?
13:54
And I was like, well, it was kind of easy for us because we've lived in quarantine for like, you know, a decade. a decade, yeah.
14:03
And so, you learn to live in this smaller footprint.
14:06
But, it's that's a tough thing that I don't think people think about when they think of power and fame, and there's there's some downsides to it. Yeah.
14:16
And and what do you What do people want the most from you?
14:18
And because I love the idea of what you're saying of being open.
14:22
It's such That mindset is so special. Yeah.
14:25
I guess when that when you are open and then, like you said, you can get over that hurt.
14:29
What is the hurt that you usually have to get over or most commonly that you've had to deal with?
14:35
Well, the Maybe hurt is too strong of a word.
14:37
Um again, because we're older, it's just the loss of a piece of yourself. Right.
14:42
You know, I mean, people always ask me I was in Chicago the other day, and every time I go back to Chicago, people are like, do you miss Chicago?
14:49
I miss the Chicago that we knew before we were here.
14:55
Wow, it's powerful, yeah.
14:57
That Chicago is no longer available to us. To you, yes, yeah.
15:01
You know, the way we loved it in that way.
15:03
And that's that's a loss. Is it a hurt? Is it personal?
15:08
No, it's just the way life is, but it's still a loss.
15:10
You know, my husband loves New York, and it was interesting, he thought for a second, because he's been more isolated than me. Mhm.
15:20
He thought for a minute, when we the White House, we'll live in New York."
15:24
I was like, "Dude, you can't live in New York."
15:30
And it's just he cannot access the wonderful city of New York in the way that he remembered when he was in his 20s.
15:37
Because guess what we can't do?
15:37
We can't walk down the street.
15:40
We can't get on the subway.
15:42
We can't necessarily walk through Central Park without a big plan.
15:48
You know, the things that make you New York, New York, we can't access it.
15:52
That's the part I don't, you know, the people part, the connection to people part.
15:56
I never get exhausted by that because I'm open, right?
16:01
So, it's not the people, right?
16:04
It's just the way you want to live your life, especially when you're open, right? You want to be open.
16:10
You want to be in the midst of people. And we've lost that. Absolutely.
16:15
I think what's beautiful about this book, The Light We Carry, and Becoming, is it shows us just how many trials, challenges, setbacks that you've had to overcome, and that you've gone through in your life so elegantly, gracefully, tactfully, you know, with with so much determination and drive.
16:38
And I'm intrigued that after having overcome so much, like you said, climbing Mount Everest, using that as our as our analogy, what is the thing that keeps you up at night now, or what is is your biggest fear now after having overcome so many?
16:52
It has less to do with me personally and more to do with the world that we're in.
16:57
There's such a thing as knowing too much.
17:00
And when you've been married to the president of the United States, who knows everything about everything in the world, sometimes you just want to turn it off, right?
17:08
It's like, I don't know I don't want to know what was in that folder that you just got that made you quiet, you know?
17:14
I don't want to know why the security just pulled you over.
17:16
I mean, it could be any range of things that comes across the desk of the leader of the free world, right?
17:23
So, I know a lot about what's going on and what keeps me up are the things that I know.
17:31
Um the war in the region, in too many regions.
17:35
What is AI going to do for us?
17:38
The environment, you know, are we moving at all fast enough?
17:41
What are we doing about education?
17:43
Are people going to vote?
17:46
And why aren't people voting?
17:49
Are we too stuck to our phones?
17:49
I mean, those are the things that keep me up because you you don't have control over them.
17:57
And you wonder, where are people at Where are we in this?
17:59
You know, where are our hearts?
18:01
What's going to happen in this next election?
18:03
I am terrified about what could possibly happen because our leaders matter, who we select, who speaks for us, who holds that bully pulpit.
18:14
It affects us in ways that I sometimes I think people take for granted.
18:18
You know, the fact that people think that government, you know, it isn't Does it really even do anything?
18:25
And I'm like, oh my god, does government do everything for us?
18:30
And we cannot take this democracy for granted.
18:32
And sometimes I I worry that we do.
18:35
Those are the things that keep me up.
18:38
What What habits have you developed because I think people may not have access to the news you do, but I think people can definitely relate Yes, yes.
18:48
to what you're saying of like Absolutely.
18:49
Jam, just seeing all the news on my phone, I'm connected to the TV, I'm hearing things from friends and family.
18:54
Like, I think a lot of people can relate to you saying, I feel like I know too much.
18:57
What are some of the habits of practices or rules that you've developed that have really become your saving grace because like you said, to you it's not just a news update, it's a folder, it's the person calling, it's a private meeting, whatever it may be.
19:13
You're In one sense, it's even more extreme because you're so privy to the actual reality as opposed to a news channel, which is part of reality.
19:20
So One of the most important practices is is deliberately turning that off for a moment or more than a moment. And I encourage that.
19:33
I think our phones are sort of the regular man's equivalent to what I just described.
19:40
We're too connected all the time. We're reading too much.
19:45
We're taking too much in.
19:45
We are constantly being fed by images, and that's become the norm, and it's we've been sort of marketed that that's cool.
19:57
That's what we should want. But our brains are not.
19:59
We are We are not that sophisticated a species. Yeah.
20:02
We have not evolved enough to be able to take in that much information on a constant basis, and our kids certainly are not prepared to handle it.
20:13
I think that that plays a huge role in the higher rates of depression and suicide among young people.
20:21
They've got to let their brains rest from the noise.
20:24
Even though, you know, we're all trying to fix everything, everyone needs a break from it, right?
20:31
So I am very deliberate about knowing that I can't take all that in, and and and we're getting it in such sort of misinterpreted way, right?
20:40
We've got, you know, confirmation bias.
20:43
We're reading only what we already believe, and I know I have to be very deliberate about, you know, understanding that a lot of the information I'm getting isn't even complete. I do filter, you know.
21:01
And then I I develop habits that shut my brain off to thinking, Mhm. right?
21:08
I I wrote in The Light about knitting, you know, which is a habit that I I developed, a hobby that I developed over quarantine.
21:16
And that's because it makes you so present and so It It Engaging.
21:21
It It It It shuts your brain down and allows your your hands, the motion, to take over. Mhm.
21:26
And in that way I found that it is meditative, right?
21:29
Um and that's what meditation is, it's quieting your noisy mind.
21:34
And some of us can't connect to meditation, but I think we need it. Mhm.
21:40
I I think biologically we need to shut that part of ourselves down to get a rest from it.
21:46
And I find that knitting does it, exercise does it, um learning something physical shuts my mind down.
21:52
I mean, I've taken up tennis, and there's nothing that shuts my mind down than running after a green ball and trying to figure out Move your feet. Hit the ball. Follow through.
22:05
It's like, yeah, um that shuts my mind down.
22:09
For the hour or 90 minutes that I'm doing that thing, I'm not worrying, you know?
22:14
I'm breathing, I'm outside, I'm letting the sun hit my face.
22:19
I am Those habits and routines of creating something, right?
22:25
And we're do We do that less and less now.
22:28
It's like everything is all in the mind, it's all technology.
22:33
But I think we need something where The thing I I love about knitting is that at the end of it, I've made something. You know?
22:40
It's It's It's just satisfying in a very different way from problem solving or analysis, Yes. right?
22:49
Building, creating, painting, drawing, fixing, putting something real into the world that came from your own hands. Yes.
22:58
Something small, you know?
22:58
That's why I talk about the power of small in the light we carry because a lot of times our brains are trying to do the big fix. Mhm.
23:08
And that's when we feel hopeless and we're tired because most of us don't have the power to fix anything on at a big scale.
23:18
But we can focus on the small things that we have control over. Mhm.
23:23
You know, making a sweater for your daughter, helping mentor a child in your neighborhood, loving the children you bring into the world and making sure they have everything they need.
23:34
That's where change happens, right?
23:37
And when I do those kinds of activities, I meditate into that power, right? That small power.
23:45
That there is satisfaction from hitting a stupid ball over a net. Yes.
23:52
You know, and getting a good swing out of it.
23:54
It's like it makes the day better because I served the ball right or I finished a scarf. Yeah.
24:03
I love No, you're so right.
24:03
I'm and I'm so glad you're using the word shutting down.
24:07
And this switch to analog.
24:07
I remember at one point, and I think everyone can relate to this, you wake up to your phone.
24:14
I'd be brushing my teeth and I'm on my phone.
24:16
I'm eating breakfast and I'm on my phone.
24:18
You know, just your phone is now tethered to your hand in every activity that you're doing throughout the day.
24:25
And so your brain is never shutting down and thing is we all know our phones need a reset, they need a update, they need a software refresh or whatever it may be.
24:35
And I think I saw somewhere that the human brain today has to process like 74 gigabytes worth of information a day. Yeah. Yeah. A day.
24:45
And I was thinking, I remember when your phone doesn't, you know, it's a lot.
24:50
And when you think about it, this is a brand new technology, right?
24:51
You know, when we got into the White House, we could we had blackberries, right? Wow, yeah.
24:58
Uh social media wasn't a thing, right?
25:00
All of that came into being in the 8 years that we were in the White House, and it's just gone off like a rocket ship.
25:10
We don't evolve that quickly, you know, humans it takes generations for us to evolve.
25:15
We haven't adapted to this new media.
25:18
We haven't we have not biologically Mhm. adapted. Mhm.
25:23
And so no wonder we're stressed. Yes.
25:26
No wonder we're we're full of anxiety.
25:29
No wonder our kids are struggling, you know, because we we have a new technology and we've just we we've taken it in hook, line, and sinker.
25:40
We're not even questioning how much, you know, the more the merrier, right?
25:42
I think we need to be very mindful about this new gadget. Yes.
25:50
And we have to be mindful for our kids because they have no filter, right?
25:56
They'll just be thumbing through this stuff, you know, their their minds never sleeping, and as parents of my generation, we know so little about it.
26:06
We don't we don't even know how to monitor it. Mhm.
26:08
It's like cigarettes, right? Is it good for us?
26:11
I mean, at one point everybody smoked Yeah.
26:15
until we realized, oops, this isn't really Today.
26:18
really good for us, right?
26:18
I think we we have to be cautious about this this new thing that we're just lapping up.
26:27
Yeah, I read an article a few years ago, exactly it was saying that today we absorb in 1 day, in 24 hours, the same amount of tragedy we would in our entire lifetime 25 years ago.
26:40
Today we absorb what we would in our entire lifetime in 1 day, and it felt real.
26:45
And that's why people feel more panic.
26:48
I mean, Barack, my husband, is a He's a fact-based guy. He's a science guy.
26:54
Sometimes it's not popular these days, right?
26:56
Having a president that believes in facts and science and all that stuff, but he's one of those people.
27:03
And he always says, you know, statistically speaking, especially when young people bemoan where we are today, he says, you know, if you look at history and statistics, if you were to pick any time in human history to be born, you'd want to be born now.
27:23
Crime, war, those rates are at the lowest. But nobody feels that. People feel more unsafe. Why?
27:32
Because they're they're getting fed images of every crime that happens anywhere, everywhere. All right?
27:40
And when we were growing up, you just heard your local news, you know?
27:45
It's just like, oh, there was a fire or that kid, you know, and you know.
27:48
Now we're getting everything not just from our community, but all over the world.
27:53
Stuff that's always been happening, we just didn't know about it. We now we know too much.
28:00
And we're interpreting that to mean things are horrible.
28:02
We went through world wars and depressions and famine. This isn't new.
28:07
It's just we know everything.
28:10
And that's one way to look at it. Yes, yes, absolutely.
28:12
And and I think you're right because there's the incomplete information.
28:15
I like the word incomplete that you said.
28:18
I appreciate that kind of subtle point.
28:19
Incomplete information, then you have opinions, then you have feelings and emotions, and so there's there's so much more information on every level.
28:29
You have the physical information, the emotional information, the mental information, of course the physical experience of it.
28:36
And and it and it can be it can be too much.
28:38
much. One of the uh It's so interesting you use the analogy of climbing Mount Everest because I went to see a comedy show a little recently, and I'm trying to remember the comedian's name so I'll have to find it afterwards and and put him in there but he literally was describing he was saying relationships are like climbing
28:54
Mount Everest and so what he said was he goes you start at base camp and he goes you and your partner are ready you're ready to go you're being guided and then at one point you're like oh we're cold but it's okay we'll keep each other warm we'll be fine and then he goes you get to the first stop and you go oh yeah
29:09
like have you have you did you pack them the gloves did you pack the gloves and then your partner goes oh no I forgot the gloves and you're like oh it's okay it's okay we'll just keep our hands warm then you get a bit higher and then they were like now it's got to a point where it's really cold and you go why did you
29:22
forget those gloves like you know it's like the like come on like why do you forget those gloves then you get the next stop and your partner says to you like you packed the sandwiches right and then you look at the sandwiches like I don't know where the sandwiches are anyway and so you talk about this so much in your work in your book like
29:37
relationships are challenging they're difficult I think you've been together now for over 30 years 31 31 years 31 years congratulations October okay amazing 31 years congratulations that's incredible and so inspiring in so many ways my wife and I have been together for 10 years and that counts counts and and you know
29:56
definitely like can see the the challenges unforeseen and seen that come with being together over long periods of time my wife and I in 2016 we both changed jobs so we got married we changed jobs and moved country so we moved from London to New York that year we both quit our jobs in London I could work here my wife couldn't at the time
30:19
because of her visa and we started new lives and we obviously moved home and we're away from our families and that year was it brought us closer thankfully but it was a very challenging difficult year because I've heard that those are some of the hardest things you can do the only thing we didn't do was have a kid that's right and
30:36
you you covered all the hard bases from president and first lady I think that that takes it but when you're going for all these challenges, you've talked about these many many times before, has there ever been a time when you've said things or done things and afterwards thought, I wish I didn't do that. I wish I didn't say
30:50
I wish I didn't say that. What, in my marriage? Yes, yes. Of course. I yesterday. I love that.
30:59
How do How do you How do you because you've been together for 31 years, how do you rectify something like that when you know because there's a difference between being spiteful or being silly, but like when you really feel like, I shouldn't have done that, I shouldn't have said that.
31:10
Like, how do you address something that You know, that's the practice of relationships, right?
31:14
After 31 years, yeah, we still do it, but you know it quicker.
31:19
And then you you apologize, you know, you you learn how to say my bad, right?
31:24
And that takes that takes a second, right?
31:28
You know, that's why I talk about relationships in the light, I talk about marriage because I I just think that number one, most people don't talk about it.
31:36
Like, our parents didn't talk about your marriage.
31:41
You didn't talk about your feelings.
31:41
You didn't talk about Your parents didn't tell you about the challenges they were facing. So, why?
31:45
Why don't we share the whole experience?
31:49
Because what happens is that by not knowing, you hit in in your relationship some natural like understandable rough patches and you want to quit.
32:01
And it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. That's not quit-worthy.
32:06
That's just That's the just the nature of things.
32:09
You know, that's why I joked, it's like, oh, you're mad at your partner?
32:13
You You're mad for a year and you think the marriage is over? Nah, nah.
32:18
You're going to have decades of I don't know if I like you, you know, because over the span of a 30-year marriage, yeah, you cobble together enough arguments and you got a decade, right?
32:34
And that's just the way it goes, but you don't quit on it, right?
32:36
You learn from it, and that's what sustaining a relationship is.
32:42
It's the choice to figure it out, not to quit when it gets hard.
32:47
So, yeah, I said something that I didn't mean to say, right?
32:50
You're You're five, we might have had hurt feelings, and it would have taken days to rectify it.
32:59
You're 30, it's like, uh there she goes again, or there he goes again.
33:03
I know when how to talk to him about it and when, because we've practiced it.
33:10
We've made a lot of mistakes, we've gotten it wrong, and after 31 years, we're getting better at it, and it gets better and better and better.
33:18
You know, look, if you lived with your roommate for 30 years, you would hate them at some point in time, but it wouldn't be some defining thing.
33:28
You have friendships, if they last long, you're going to have some falling out.
33:32
Why do we put so much pressure on marriage to to not be hard?
33:38
It's the natural hardest thing you will ever do, which is to try to build a life with another person who wasn't raised in your shoes, who has a totally different temperament, right?
33:51
And you're like having other people with them.
33:55
You know, you bring other lives and other personalities into the mix, and then life is happening.
34:01
Of course it's going to be hard, you know?
34:03
But I wouldn't trade in my marriage for anything in the world with all the ups and downs, with all the running for president stuff.
34:10
I was like, why'd you do that?
34:12
I mean, talk about that being a big gaping Yeah, transition, yeah.
34:18
thing in our lives, but the good has outweighed it, and if we hadn't hung in there, we would have missed all the good.
34:25
And that's what I tell young people, like First of all, pick well.
34:31
Pick somebody you respect and like. Start there, right?
34:34
And then remember that that's who they are.
34:36
And then understand that with that, they are going to be and you are going to be deeply, deeply flawed.
34:45
And you're going to make a whole lot of mistakes, right?
34:47
But in the end, you can look that person in the eye and you go, "You're still the person that I like and love and respect and we can figure this out." So, I share that.
35:00
Because I don't want people looking at me and Barack like #couplesgoals and not know that no, no, there are some broken things that happen even in the best of marriages. Absolutely.
35:09
And and you used that term quit-worthy.
35:14
Is that something that you defined for yourself, what you saw as quit-worthy and what you saw as not quit-worthy? a good question.
35:20
Look, I think there there are some objective quit-worthy things, like criminality. Of course. Abuse.
35:28
But hey, that's that's that's me, you know?
35:31
There are some people who love through a whole lot of things.
35:34
So, I think that has to be individual, but if I were talking to my daughters, I wouldn't want them in to stay in a marriage that made them feel oppressed, that was an overall negative to who they were, right?
35:50
I do think there are reasons to walk away from marriage, friendship, a whole jobs, a whole lot of things, right?
35:58
So, yeah, I have a clear list of like the non-negotiables, but everybody has their own. Yeah, absolutely.
36:06
And I think that's so important that, you know, everyone who's listening and watching, the idea of having our own quit-worthy definition is is such a need because it can get really hard to find clarity when you get really deep into something.
36:20
A practice that I love doing with a lot of my clients and even people that I work with or online is I ask everyone to write down the needs that they have in their life. Mhm.
36:31
And then write down the people that fill those needs.
36:33
And it could be themselves, too, some of them.
36:34
And then some of them are their friends, their mom, their dad.
36:37
And of course, in your book, like we know it's like your mom's like wisdom, right?
36:41
Like like she's the Buddha in your life, as you say.
36:43
You you see different people.
36:45
What are the roles that you initially wanted President Obama to fill that you then realized they actually needed to be filled by other people? That's a good question. Um I write about it.
36:58
The fact that it we we are two very independent, ambitious, smart people and complex, you know, as as individuals.
37:08
We, you know, we're dynamic and you know, I'm not saying that as a ego trip, but No, I know what you mean.
37:14
You're constantly in flux and right.
37:17
And I learned it took me a while to learn that, you know, there's no way we could be everything to each other.
37:22
We have different interests, different goals.
37:27
There was a stage in my marriage where I thought that's what a partner was supposed to be, you know, you should call me all the time.
37:34
We should talk all the time.
37:36
We should be each other's best friends all the time.
37:37
Our marriage got better when I got better about that because I think he already had that independence, this this notion of I love you.
37:48
I don't even if I don't talk to you today.
37:50
That to me is like I don't need that.
37:54
I felt like I needed more of that. Mhm.
37:56
But as I got older, right, I got more mature, more clear about my own goals, I realized that I, you know, he can't be responsible for my happiness.
38:05
I have to be responsible for that.
38:08
I have to define it for myself, have to learn how to achieve it.
38:12
My husband is definitely a part of that, but he is not the he I cannot put him in the center of my happiness.
38:20
That freed me up to let him be him and let me be me.
38:24
So, I have friends who give me things that my husband doesn't give me.
38:31
I have girlfriends who One distinction that we have is like I may talker.
38:38
All right, when I sit down with my girlfriends, we can talk for days.
38:40
I mean literally for days.
38:44
We can take a break for lunch, but we can talk.
38:49
You know, my husband's not He He can talk, but he He'll come by a friendship session, you know, 9:00 in the morning.
38:57
I have a friend staying with me and he's like, "What are y'all talking about?"
38:59
I was like, "Well, we're just now getting into our kids and we're going to talk about each one of them separately for like an hour, right?"
39:06
He's like, "I I couldn't do that, right?"
39:08
He can't be that for me, but I have really good mostly girlfriends who give me that, you know?
39:17
They We will dissect life to the bitter.
39:19
We will ring everything out of every subject.
39:21
And he's like, "I think I'm done." Yes.
39:24
I was like, "Well, you can go be done cuz I've got her and we just got started.
39:29
We're going to We got 12 more hours to go, right?"
39:34
And And that's so beautiful to hear because I think, especially when we're young, we think that that person has to be all of that.
39:40
And And from the beginning and or they'll become it.
39:44
There's the other fallacy of like, "Oh, well, I know who they could be and who they could become."
39:48
How much of that did you feel you had to disconnect and detach from of like what this person could be to you, obviously, not in the world, but disconnect from all of those beliefs, right?
40:00
Um and every couple is different, I found.
40:03
I I know people who are each other's best friends.
40:05
They like to travel together.
40:06
They walk and hold hands.
40:09
And I I have friends who are in relationships where they talk like every hour. Mhm.
40:14
I'm like, "Are you talking to again? Nothing changed.
40:17
You know, it's up to the individuals to define that for themselves.
40:22
Um That's a keyword, yeah. for Barack and I.
40:25
And I think you should be clear about that because the other thing is that when we hold on internally to an expectation of the other person, we don't even share it.
40:33
So now we're mad that you haven't even fulfilled something I never even told you I needed, you know?
40:39
That takes time and it takes work, which is why marriage is hard. Yes.
40:44
Because you'll have the tendency to live in your head and live out the image of what you want them to be and you haven't even communicated that to them.
40:49
That's just one little fraction of the challenge of marriage and friendship and all of that. Yes. It's hard.
40:56
It takes time, but it's worth it. Absolutely.
41:01
Yeah, I think those those check-ins are the hardest.
41:03
I I know that there's there's four check-ins that I try and keep a good habit around with my wife that have really helped me.
41:11
One of them is every day I'll ask her like what was your highlight today or what did you learn today?
41:16
Something something positive, something like what's what's the best thing that happened to you today?
41:20
I want to know because it's so easy for us to get so busy in our days, not see each other all day, not speak all day.
41:26
And days can go by like that, too, because we're also traveling.
41:30
Then every week I try and ask her like how can I what can I help you with this week?
41:34
Like is there something coming up that I just need to be aware of? Yeah.
41:37
Sometimes it's just information. Yeah.
41:39
And that gives me an opportunity to also tell her I've got a really stressful week coming up.
41:41
Just know that I may not be at my best this week.
41:44
I'm just letting you know.
41:47
Uh every month I'm, you know, checking in with her and trying to just say to her like uh what's what's your big focus for this month?
41:53
Like, you know, what's what's the big thing that you're working on?
41:56
Then every year is easy like, you know, what's your goal this year?
41:58
A resolution or whatever.
41:59
And I find that those questions and sometimes every quarter I'll ask a question which is the hardest one, but it's like, is this relationship going in the direction you want it to? Mhm.
42:10
And if it isn't, what are you willing to do and what am I willing to do to get it back on track? Yeah.
42:17
Because I find so often, like if you just don't talk about that deep intimacy, you're just going on different tracks and that's why 5 years later you're like, "Well, I don't know you anymore." Yeah, yeah.
42:25
And so I find that like staying in close contact, but one of the biggest things I read which I wanted to try with you was the Gottman Institute talked about how the number one skill or habit in relationships, and they looked at couples the longest and they found it wasn't date nights, it wasn't vacations, it wasn't any of this stuff, it was learning how to fight. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
42:49
how to deal with conflict and most couples, obviously, we all go, "Well, we never fight or we're never going to fight." But it's inevitable.
42:54
So, I came up with these three fight styles and I wanted to know Okay.
42:59
how you see yourself and how you see President Obama or how he would see him himself.
43:02
And so, here the three fight styles are a venter, which means I want to fix and solve it right now. You like to vent. Mhm.
43:10
But you're really trying to fix and solve it.
43:11
The second one is you're a hider, you need time and space to think about it.
43:15
You just want to go spend time by yourself.
43:17
And then the third one is the exploder where it's like, "I want my emotions to be heard, felt, and seen before we take time about or before we try and solve it." Which one are you?
43:27
Okay, so I've changed over I think early on in our relationships I was more of an exploder. Wow.
43:33
I think he has been always been a fixer. Mhm. Right?
43:39
The venter yeah, fixer yeah.
43:39
So then I would be explosive and then want to hide, right?
43:43
It's like, "I want to explode, let me have my emotions, and then give me a moment." Yes. Right?
43:49
And he's like, "We've got to fix this.
43:51
We've got to, you know, shut this down.
43:53
We got to I will figure it out.
43:55
Let's talk this through."
43:55
Um And I love that about him, especially as a man.
43:59
You know, he is somebody that is not afraid to put his emotions out.
44:02
He's smart and so he knows me.
44:05
So he's like he won't let me pretend like there's nothing wrong because he knows I know there's something.
44:13
You're a little off and um but I've had to learn that exploding on a fixer it doesn't feel good to them, right?
44:23
It's just you know, it feels good for me, but it doesn't feel good for him, right?
44:29
But he's learned that as a hider that I do need a little more time, right?
44:33
If I'm exploding I can't be rational enough to talk through your fixing.
44:41
And you if you want to fix it, then I've got to be in a rational place.
44:46
So let me hide for a minute so I can get myself down to a fixer place.
44:48
I think that's been the trajectory of our sorting through learning how to argue, but I like I like those.
44:58
But he's he's been pretty consistent.
45:00
He is consistently the fixer.
45:05
You know, and he's also much more even keel, you know, than I am emotionally.
45:11
We're just different people in that way and he's learned not to be too afraid of the explosiveness.
45:17
It's like I don't mean it.
45:19
I'm just saying it right now cuz I need to say it. Right?
45:25
And that awareness that you're just displaying there is so powerful to to witness because you realize wow, it's not as serious as I'm making it out to be.
45:32
It's important it's it's important and I need to take note of it, but it's I don't need to deal with it in this Right. Right.
45:38
It well and it's maturing.
45:40
We all say well say what's on your mind, you know, tell it like it is.
45:44
And it's like yeah, I'm that tends to be who I am, but as you get older you realize yeah, that's your heart, but your head tells you you want to be heard.
45:56
And you have to think about who you're talking to and what your end goal is because that will dictate how you have to communicate to them.
46:04
So, when you're young, you just want to be heard. Yes.
46:08
As you get older, you have a goal.
46:10
You want to achieve something. Mhm.
46:13
And being heard in the way you say it may not get you to your goal. Yes.
46:19
I mean, that's at the crux for me of what going high is, right?
46:21
I mean, going high is being strategic.
46:24
If you're really trying to make change, you have to think about whether your approach will allow for change to happen.
46:32
You know, going high means you're thinking about a broader point outside of your own anger or hurt or pain.
46:42
You're thinking, "Where am I trying to get to and how do I do that with this group that I'm trying to move?"
46:46
That's passion matured Mhm. into purpose.
46:49
And young people often, they want to just act with passion, right?
46:56
But passion doesn't always solve a thing.
46:59
And I've learned that in my relationship, you know, my passion isn't is meaningless if my husband can't hear it.
47:08
You know, if I've hurt his feelings in the process, well, what's That's not the point.
47:13
You know, so I have to mature my passion.
47:16
You know, I have to mature as a mother, right?
47:18
I have to be very careful as a mother with the words I say.
47:21
I can't just say what's on my mind.
47:24
I can I have to think about how I say it to which child, because they're both different, and they both need to be parented different, right?
47:32
So, going high is like to me, it's the mature way to live, right?
47:37
It's the It's mature way to get the message across.
47:42
It doesn't mean that how you feel isn't relevant, right? It's true.
47:47
It's real and true, but that's that's for you to deal with.
47:50
When you're dealing with external people, whether it's your husband or your kids or your friends, your passion has to take weight of well well what's going to work with this person? Mhm.
48:02
What's going to work with this group of people?
48:05
To me, that's what going high is.
48:08
Yeah, what a great definition.
48:08
I think you're the best person to have this conversation with.
48:11
I love how you explain the need for that.
48:13
And actually I I don't think I've heard it explained in that way before.
48:16
I really appreciate it because I think currently we've confused being authentic and being strategic.
48:25
What you were just saying is when you're sharing how you feel, you are being authentic, Mhm.
48:30
but maybe it won't be authentically received or heard or seen because it wasn't strategically perceived, but we sometimes today perceive strategy as manipulation or as a technique as opposed to Or selling out. Or selling out, right.
48:44
But walk me through that because I think how we perceive we we've put authenticity on a pedestal, which is not wrong, but we've put strategy as like the thing that you kind of, you know, shun.
48:56
Well, and maybe strategy is too strategic or hard of a word, but you could replace that with empathy, Mhm. right?
49:05
You know, if you are connectivity, it's sort of like who am I trying to move?
49:10
And where are they in this, right?
49:13
And when you're the president of the United States or the first lady or you have a big platform, I've always felt like I have a responsibility to set my feelings aside and think about where are you? Mhm. Why are you so angry?
49:31
Where is your hate coming from? Mhm.
49:33
Because yeah, I can be mad at your hate.
49:36
I can be mad that you're, you know, you just said something racist or you knock me down a peg or you misjudged me, but if I'm trying to fix the relationship, I've got to understand what are you going through? Mhm.
49:49
Where did that perception come from? What's your history?
49:54
What puts you in this spirit of hate?
49:56
Because that's going to dictate how we can even begin to have the conversation.
50:02
I don't lose my authenticity in that cuz I know who I am, right?
50:06
But I have to make room to understand who you are.
50:09
That's either strategy or empathy.
50:12
But to me, effective communication, especially if you're a leader, Mhm.
50:17
if you have the power, it requires a step back. Yes. Right?
50:23
And I think that's what going high is. And I do, you're right.
50:25
I think in this day and age, we've kind of supplanted that consideration. Mhm.
50:32
Because my feelings count. Mhm.
50:32
My voice has to be heard.
50:37
Which is also why I think we have to learn how to hear people throughout. Right? Yeah.
50:43
to give people a space to be heard outside of the anger. Right?
50:47
Cuz that's where all that's coming from, right?
50:52
When people can't mature their response, it's because they don't have a voice. Mhm.
50:57
It's like if I don't have a voice in regular conversation, then I will make you hear me. Yes. Right?
51:01
Young people feel that way. Absolutely. Right?
51:05
Oppressed people feel that way.
51:08
People who don't have a stake in it feel that way.
51:11
Which is why I think it's strategic to give everybody a piece of something Mhm.
51:19
so that they feel seen and heard.
51:19
I think that brings that ratchets down the anger, the explosiveness. Mhm.
51:27
Because people can guarantee that they are being seen, they'll be heard.
51:32
They don't have to yell, they don't have to tear something apart. Mhm.
51:35
They don't have to break it because they own it.
51:37
And we just lose sight of that 1000%.
51:42
these days in our policies and our perspectives.
51:46
You can't shut people out.
51:46
You know, I talk about in the light when I think about kids from communities that are under invested in.
51:53
Their their anger their lack of like I don't none of this belongs to me.
52:00
So why would I protect it?
52:03
Why wouldn't I break down your house or rob you or try to take your car?
52:10
Because I don't own any of this.
52:10
This country is not mine.
52:12
They don't see me, right?
52:16
I think we do better with kids if they feel like I've got a chance here.
52:18
This place is investing in me, so I'm invested in it.
52:23
We do that with kids in the inner city, but we you know, we don't talk about education.
52:27
We don't talk about what we're giving them or whether they have music or or joy or sports or activities.
52:34
We just want them to have nothing and then be okay with it.
52:40
But they're going to fight to be heard. Yes.
52:42
They're going to fight to be seen, but they're not going to do it in a rational way because they don't have a strategic place and they don't feel like they're a part of it. So true. So true.
52:51
When you're trying to go high, when you're trying to have this view of I want to understand your story, I want to get inside your mindset and and recognize why you have evolved in this direction or this particular path, if anything, what does still offend you? Like Injustice. Uh ego, greed. It's offensive.
53:14
Racism, ignorance, it's offensive.
53:17
And I've always been that kid. I don't like unfairness. I don't like bullies.
53:22
But I have to think about how I deliver messages. That's beautiful.
53:29
Still, even in my pain and my anger and my disappointment.
53:32
So that those emotions are there, Mhm.
53:33
but I have to think about where do where do I let that out? Yes.
53:39
In a safe space and that's what my kitchen table is, right?
53:43
I still have those emotions but in my public facing voice I have to be responsible, right?
53:50
And strategic and thoughtful about what's going to move the needle.
53:58
What's going to add value?
53:58
My emotional well-being gets taken care of at the kitchen table.
54:03
I I can't suffocate those feelings but I can't act them out in the town square. Yeah.
54:10
Cuz I'm just going to add fuel to the fire and that doesn't help if we're trying to move the needle.
54:17
And that doesn't make you inauthentic.
54:17
I don't believe because those feelings are still mine and if you ask me I'll tell you what I'm angry about but I I'm not going to lead with that and in the midst of the message I'll make it clear what I stand for and what I don't stand for.
54:31
But the tone and tenor of the message matters.
54:36
We can't just say what what the first thing that comes to our minds. We cannot.
54:41
That is not authenticity.
54:41
To me that's that's childish and we see childish leadership right before us what that looks like and how that feels.
54:53
Where somebody is just base and vulgar and cynical in a leadership position.
55:03
It it doesn't trickle down well, you know, that just begets more of that.
55:08
I think we are obligated to model for those of us that have a platform because it resonates.
55:16
And I want to resonate good.
55:20
I want to resonate reason and compassion and empathy.
55:23
And that's more important than my feelings cuz my feelings I can take care of those.
55:31
That is that's that's a masterclass in communication right there.
55:34
Genuinely, that is to hear that from you with so much empathy but energy is so empowering for everyone who's listening and watching because I think I think we've approached it from the other way around today.
55:47
I think I think my personal feelings, not mine, but in general how we feel, my personal feelings have become more important than moving and supporting and serving and caring and getting to where we need to get to. Yeah. Yeah.
56:02
And that's because we've suppressed those feelings.
56:03
That's why that has happened.
56:05
It hasn't happened because people are mean or insensitive.
56:09
It's happened because people feel they've been so unheard going back to your point.
56:13
And that's why we need to give space.
56:15
We need to get let this rise.
56:16
How early did you start recognizing this for you in your own life?
56:21
Like where Do you remember like the earliest before the White House like where you actually were like, this worked.
56:27
Like this made sense and I still felt good because I had my kitchen table.
56:31
Is there anything that comes to mind?
56:33
And do I go to childhood?
56:33
I don't think I knew any of this when I was little.
56:37
But I think I you know, I learned it on the campaign trail. Mhm. Mhm.
56:40
It it was a product of one of the hardest moments that I had on the campaign trail, but one of the best growth moments and I write about this in The Light when I was accused of not loving my country Mhm.
56:54
because of some phrasing I said.
56:58
I learned first of all that when you have a public forum, especially in this day and age that it and and you're like competing, people will distort you whenever they can.
57:10
And and if they distort your words, your truth, even your personhood, which I felt like people attempted to do with me, with us, they tried to otherize us as the first black people, accusing my husband of being a terrorist and not being born in this country, accusing me of being an angry black woman and you know, the labels that can easily get put on others that people that are othered, right?
57:39
To make people afraid of us that that is a strategy that gets played again and again and again.
57:48
It was being played on me and it got me to the point where I was almost ready to quit campaigning, right?
57:54
But then I thought I have to be more strategic than they are about how I deliver my message.
58:00
I have to be authentic, but I also have to be careful so that I don't get mischaracterized.
58:08
I have to be smarter than them.
58:08
That doesn't mean I stop, but I had to regroup for a minute there and really evaluate how am I going to regain control over my narrative and communicate in a broad way, right?
58:25
That allows me to be heard especially as a black woman here being critical or being authentic or passionate, right?
58:35
That was a learning curve to me.
58:35
I I mean I think my sentiments about the importance of communication were always there.
58:42
My belief in how important it is that stories connect us, that was there.
58:49
I learned that in life, but learning how to do that on the public stage, I I learned the tricks and pitfalls of it in my first campaign and those lessons stayed with me.
59:01
Yeah, that's Thank you for that example.
59:04
I That example definitely connects.
59:06
You reminded me of probably one of my favorite set of words from Martin Luther King where he said that people who love peace need to learn to organize themselves as well as those who love war.
59:19
For those who us who love love and love peace and love compassion and empathy, if we're not organized about it, if we're not strategic about it, if we're not thoughtful about it, That's right.
59:31
it won't have the impact that we all crave for it to have.
59:32
Um Michelle, we you've been so kind and generous with your time.
59:37
We end every episode with a final five.
59:39
Uh these are the fast five which I always ruin because I'm too interested and curious.
59:46
Uh they're usually answered in one word to one sentence god.
59:48
I'm going to I'm going to ruin it. So, it's fine.
59:50
Uh so, the first question after asking Michelle is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
59:57
I heard a lot of it from my wise mom, "Come home. We like you here." Mhm.
1:00:06
To explain that, it was like my parents always taught me that the world won't always like you, but you can't count on the world to like you. Mhm.
1:00:16
You come home to be liked. Mhm.
1:00:18
You go out there to get your education, to earn a living.
1:00:21
You won't necessarily find people who will see you or love you or like you.
1:00:28
You get that here, right?
1:00:28
And that's been a piece of advice that's stuck with me. beautiful. Thank you.
1:00:33
That's that's so powerful.
1:00:35
I know a lot of people who need to hear that right now.
1:00:36
Uh second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? I don't know.
1:00:42
I don't I don't know that the worst advice stays with me. You let it go.
1:00:46
My brother This isn't the worst, right?
1:00:48
But it goes back to what we were saying earlier.
1:00:50
You know, he's like, "When you get into the White House, you got to be careful. No new friends, right?"
1:00:57
That's not who he is, but you know, it was a short way of saying, "Be careful."
1:01:02
I think staying open was more important in this phase in our lives than being closed off.
1:01:11
I'm I'm glad we stayed open. I'm glad, too.
1:01:14
Uh question number three, you said that the White House doesn't change you, it reveals more of who you are. Yeah.
1:01:21
What did it reveal to you about yourself?
1:01:22
That I'm pretty strategic and smart and resilient.
1:01:25
The White House tests you in ways that you never anticipated. Mhm.
1:01:33
And the fact that we came out as a family, as individuals, the four of us, me and our two daughters, that was us. Mhm.
1:01:41
That was our values, our compassion, our our smarts, our strategy that got us through.
1:01:49
You know, I'm so proud of my husband.
1:01:55
The way he led, the way his administration worked, the team that we built, so proud of everyone.
1:02:03
I I may have diverted from the question, but Beautiful. Please continue.
1:02:07
I think that's that's because of who we are. And I know that now. Mhm.
1:02:16
I can I can see it in your eyes and and feel it from your words.
1:02:18
Like it's it might it must be hard like knowing that, you know, it can't always be that way in one sense.
1:02:26
It's almost like great that you've been able to leave, but there's a there's that feeling also of like, "Oh, but that was great."
1:02:31
I mean, the bars are different for people in life. That I've learned. Mhm.
1:02:37
This is the thing about being another. Mhm.
1:02:42
You learn how to be excellent all the time Mhm.
1:02:45
because you can't be less than. Mhm. Other people can.
1:02:48
Other people can be indicted a bunch of times and still run for for office. Black man can't.
1:02:55
You just learn to be good.
1:02:58
And in the end, you benefit from that extra resilience. Mhm.
1:03:03
You know, you could be mad about it, but it also makes you more equipped. Mhm. Right? But it's still not fair. Yeah, definitely.
1:03:15
Uh question number four, we've got two more left.
1:03:16
Question number four, you've obviously already began living and will leave an incredible legacy for the work that you've done.
1:03:25
If you could describe what that you'd want that legacy to read, if someone was reading it or hearing it, what would it what would it say?
1:03:35
That she helped more young people feel seen.
1:03:42
Cuz I start with young people.
1:03:45
Because with one word we can change a kid's life. We can lift them up.
1:03:52
But that same wrong one word can crush them forever. Mhm.
1:03:59
And those are the building blocks of our humanity. How we treat our kids. All of them. All right?
1:04:05
And so, I hope that my legacy is creating a stronger foundation for young people. Mhm.
1:04:14
A fifth and final question.
1:04:17
We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show.
1:04:18
More more appropriate with guests like yourselves, but uh, if you could create one law in the world that everyone had to follow, what would it be?
1:04:27
Everybody should have a a home to live in, food to eat, a job to go to, and education. Period.
1:04:38
They would be the fundamental rights of everyone in the world.
1:04:40
Now, there could be levels of that.
1:04:43
You know, we would not live where so few have so much and so many have nothing.
1:04:48
And that law would create some kind of equity.
1:04:52
We have this trickle-down approach, right?
1:04:58
That's the basis of a capitalistic economy, right?
1:05:03
But that's not happening. Yeah. It's not trickling.
1:05:07
The law would it would require in whatever way, if we're not trickling voluntarily, then we need to be forced to trickle.
1:05:19
How do we create that law? It really I'm in. How do we get that law?
1:05:21
Mandatory trickling down, right? Yeah. No, we so need that. We so need that. What's blocking that?
1:05:25
What's what's stopping that? I think fear. Yeah.
1:05:31
I mean, I I write about fear because I think fear is at the source of so much because I think the people who have a lot are afraid of not having enough.
1:05:41
And it's not rational, right?
1:05:41
But we fear the other, too.
1:05:49
And so it's hard to give to people that you think you should be afraid of because you can't connect with them. We're all human. We're so alike.
1:05:57
I don't care about skin color or how we pray or who how we love. We're all the same.
1:06:07
What keeps us from seeing that is fear, right? I don't know you. You're different.
1:06:12
So I got to be afraid of you and I can't I I have to make sure you don't come into my space.
1:06:17
And then we live in a culture where people with power pray on fear to get more power.
1:06:23
I'm going to make you all afraid of each other.
1:06:27
And then I can come in and rule it all, right?
1:06:30
I think fear is at the root of that.
1:06:33
I Shalae, deeply appreciate uh your time, your energy, your presence, the eloquence but also the the deep energy you bring to conversations like these and I'm definitely grateful for the light you carry and I'm very deeply appreciative for you sharing it on On Purpose and I hope this will be the first of many conversations together. So thank you again. Thank you so much. Thank you. We'll talk again. Absolutely. Thank you.
1:06:58
If you loved this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr.
1:07:02
Daniel Amen on how to change your life by changing your brain.
1:07:05
If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain.
1:07:12
You know, I've had the blessing or the curse to scan over a thousand convicted felons and over a hundred murderers, and their brains are very damaged.