Hello boys and girls, this is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to attempt to deconstruct world-class performers of all different types from all different disciplines to give you techniques, perhaps tactics, favorite books, training regimens even, recovery protocols even, that you can use.
And my guests today are the best at what they do.
Michael Phelps and Grant Hackett.
They're very close friends.
They were able to feed off of each other.
Their shared stories are incredible.
So, the combination of the two on this podcast was really special.
Now, let me read these bios and then we'll jump right in to the conversation.
Michael Phelps, you recognize his name on Twitter @MichaelPhelps, is widely regarded as one of the greatest athletes of all time.
He captured 28 medals, including a record-setting 23 gold medals, and set 39 world records over the course of his career.
Phelps utilized his performance bonus for winning eight gold medals in 2008 to establish the Michael Phelps Foundation, which promotes water safety, healthy living, physical and mental, and the pursuit of dreams.
The foundation's signature program IM is a learn-to-swim, healthy-living, and goal-setting curriculum based on the principles and tools Phelps utilized in his swimming career, and is available through the Boys & Girls Clubs of America and Special Olympics International.
His advocacy for water safety and mental health has earned the recognition of the Boys & Girls Clubs of America Champion of Youth American Image Awards, that's the Humanitarian Award, Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration Special Recognition Award, the Ruderman Family Foundation Morton E.
Ruderman Award in Inclusion, and PR Week Health Influencer 50 and 2020 Communicator of the Year, among many others.
Phelps served as an executive producer and featured talent in the HBO documentary The Weight of Gold, which explores the mental health challenges Olympic athletes often face.
Although it really extends to many, many more people and types of people than Olympic athletes.
In addition, he has published two autobiographies, No Limits, subtitled The Will to Succeed, and Beneath the Surface, that were New York Times and USA Today bestsellers, and one children's book, How to Train with a T-Rex and Win Eight Gold Medals.
You can find him online on Twitter, twitter.
com/michaelphelps, Facebook, facebook.
com/michaelphelps, and on Instagram @m_phelps0. Zero.
Grant Hackett on Instagram @grant__hackett, that's two underscores, so I'll give that to you again, @grant__hackett.
Represented and captained Australia in swimming at the Olympic Games.
He collected a total of 58 medals over the course of his swimming career with 26 gold at Olympic, Commonwealth, and World Championship levels, along with 16 world records.
He remained unbeaten for 11 years in his pet event, the 1500 meter freestyle. That's just nuts.
Grant also received prestigious honors such as the Order of Australia, the Centenary Medal, and the Australian Sports Medal.
Grant is a member of the Sports Australia Hall of Fame and International Swimming Hall of Fame.
His qualifications include also an Executive Masters of Business Administration with first class honors, a Diploma of Business Law, and a Diploma of Financial Services.
Grant is the CEO of Generation Life, an Australia-based investment firm managing more than 1. 3 billion dollars.
So, with all that said, please enjoy Michael Phelps and Grant Hackett.
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Optimal minimal At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.
Can I ask you a personal question?
No, I was saving it for the perfect time.
What if I did the opposite?
I'm a Michael and Grant, welcome to the show. Thank you, Tim. Thanks for having us. Of course. Thank you. What's up, Grant?
Thrilled to thrilled to have us all together.
I This was the Da Vinci code of scheduling, the Fermat's Last Theorem of coordination because we have people in every possible time zone and multiple countries.
So, I appreciate you guys being flexible with with making it happen.
And I thought we would start with difficult or particularly notable races.
And I'd love to start with you, Grant, because I was confessing to both of you before we started. I enjoy swimming.
I actually didn't even learn to swim until I was in my 30s, which is a whole separate story, but I really enjoy swimming, but I know very, very little about competition and the history of competitions and notable races and so on.
Grant, can you please speak to and describe for people what happened in the 2004 Olympics in the 1500-m freestyle?
Yeah, that was a particularly tough Olympics for me.
Um that year I actually got pneumonia at the start of the year because I was just overtraining.
I um got a little bit sick and I never missed a session and you know, I used to do sort of 8K on average per session and uh and used to flog myself and then I got pneumonia, went to hospital, that turned into a chronic chest infection cuz I didn't stop training as soon as I came out of hospital because I couldn't cuz I'd miss the Olympic Games.
And then when I got to to the Olympics in Athens in 2004, I then my only one objective was to to win three gold medals and I got two gold medals both by 0.
1 of a second, two silver medals sorry, by 0.
1 of a second and wasn't too happy about that.
Then I raced the 1500 meter freestyle and I actually had to do it with a partially collapsed lung on my my left side because it was blocked with mucus for so long.
But that race I probably pushed myself through more pain than I've I've ever had and one of Michael's teammates Lawson Jensen was breaking the American record and by about 12 seconds doing a personal best time and so it pushed me to to the nth degree and that was brutal.
I came home I got went under a CAT scan and they said oh there's a massive lump on your lungs we're going to have to inject you with iodine just to see what's going on.
And you know they said oh it's a big ball and and you know they injected me with iodine had a look and they said oh it's okay it's okay and I said what do you mean is it okay?
And they said well your lower left lobe has got no oxygen for it for so long that it's actually just deflated and it's just sitting up in a big ball and I've got a huge lung capacity of 12.
6 liters and apparently that took something like a quarter of it off.
So that that race to win that gold medal was was the most painful moment that I've ever had in my career and yeah but probably the most rewarding at the same time but certainly after that I promised I would never never race like that again and Michael knows how much of a sore spot that 4 by 2 freestyle relay was a few days before where we lost by 0. 1.
So so I have I have two follow-up questions related to this.
The first is you mentioned lung capacity 12. 6 liters.
Do you have any idea just as a point of reference what average muggle heart capacity is like normie as one of my Olympic friends put it normies what that is compared to a non-Olympic swimming champion lung capacity?
So when that was done because I'm referring to actually the stats in 2004 it's 160% above what it should be for my heart and six yeah and and my age at the time so yeah it was 12.
63 liters my total lung capacity So, yeah, it's one one of those genetic things that helps.
You know, it's at that level it's just with swimming and a lot of sports it's like at the, you know, junior high level you see all sorts of different body types and then as you get a little bit higher you see still different body types but they there's a point where they start to converge on on very particular sets of physical characteristics.
On the lung, so partially collapsed lung that to most people listening that just seems completely baffling because so much of swimming would seem dependent on utilizing your full lung capacity. What did it feel like?
You said painful but what does it feel like to swim at max capacity with a partially collapsed lung? It's not good, Tim. Let me tell you that.
Uh the way I describe that race is like putting handcuffing someone to a treadmill, putting on a max incline, max speed, and then just going for for 15 minutes.
Um that that was the intensity of the pain.
Normally where I felt that intense pain at the 1,000 m mark, I felt at the 500 m mark in that race.
And it's excruciating those thresholds that you have to go through.
So, yeah, to to push myself through that the the funniest thing about that race I I hadn't lost it in 8 years at that particular point in time and I um was going to last 100 m and it was the first time I actually turned with someone next to me with 100 m to go.
And uh and I actually came home faster in the last 100 m than what I did than when I broke the world record by by 7 seconds 3 years earlier.
So, um it it actually taught me the value of competition in my worst situation that I can actually extrapolate or get more um out of myself even even feeling like that.
But the pain was yeah, I actually said I'm going to retire if I can't get better after those Olympics.
I'm actually going to retire from the sport cuz I didn't want to race like that again.
Were you doing lactate testing then, Hackett? Yeah.
Yeah, we were doing What What do you remember what it would have been after that? You know, it's funny.
It was never that high after my 15, but I think I hit about a 12 after that where the the 200 I could hit a 13 or 14 and the 15 I'd normally be like a nine, but I produced a lot there cuz the oxygen saturation wasn't going down into my blood. So, yeah.
So, it went up and that's a good point.
No one's actually ever mentioned that in P.
Well, that's a That's just something I like snap think about because I mean, like I mean, you know me.
Like I was always somebody who and still am.
Like I just a numbers driven person.
So, that stuff always just sends little key messages whether it's to me or or or to Bob or to to Keenan, my trainer of things we need to improve on or fix or maybe what we need to get tested for, too. So. Yeah. No, absolutely.
No, that that was excruciating, but you still want to see stats afterwards.
It's like the Olympics is over.
That's the last day always of the Olympics.
And you know, you you would have been doing the 4 by 1 medley probably that day as well. Mhm.
And you know, you still want to do everything like, you know, see what you how quickly you remove the lactate out of your muscles after you cooled out.
And that's one thing that Michael and I always share is the stats.
Like we can pull out any swimming time, any split, any world record split.
We We We know it back to front.
I was going to continue with the the tough race question and and Michael, you can feel free to go there first, but I I also have a question about that training obsession, competitive drive, and also just the familiarity with the numbers, right?
I do have some questions about that, but do you have particularly tough race or competition that that you'd like to mention, Michael?
I mean, the 200 fly I'm really happy it was only 200 m uh in in 2016.
Had I Had it been 201 m, I I would have lost. So, that one sticks out.
Other than that, like I I look back at, you know, most of my races and and I can say they they were pretty much pain-free, but that was just because I was prepared.
That's literally the only reason.
Um so, you know, I was probably 75 80% of the time really prepared.
Um and and you know, 2012 and like 10 to 12 are kind of my fake 65 70%ish.
Let's talk about prep since that's that's where I was going to head next.
I'm looking at a quote uh from your coach, Michael, from 2003 and he's he's referring to both of you guys.
Uh he's asked about the similarities between the two of you.
And he said, this is from uh an interview at some point, they both enjoy training.
It's not an ordeal for them.
They're both really aware of what's going on in practice in relation to their times, speed, where everyone is, and most importantly, where they are in training compared to their goals.
And I'm sure you guys get questions about competitive drive all the time, so I don't want to obsess on that phrasing exactly, but is that familiarity with the numbers and that awareness common across other team members or or is that something that is abnormally developed in the two of you?
And if so, do you have any theories on on why that is?
Yeah, I I I think like a lot of it really is just god-given feel and and ability, right?
Like, you know, for me, like I'm I'm somebody who's is really a feel swimmer and I was taught, you know, the process of it.
So, um I I was taught to swim as efficiently as I possibly could at all times.
So, you know, I think that's really what allowed me to to be able to do the, you know, the repeats and feel the exact times with the stroke counts or, you know, whatever we were trying to do, but also just um I mean for me it was like like training training I knew I had to be perfect if I ever wanted to do something that no one had ever done, right?
Like I I was trying to compete and and do things that people had never seen before period in the Olympics and and swimming.
So it's like I had to, you know, from a workout standpoint, I had to be as hungry as possible and and you know, Bob kind of says jump and I'm I'm always saying how high and and you know, I always wanted to break as many world records as I possibly could.
So that's why I love training and and you know, I know that you can ask Hackie and I think he'd agree that you put the two of us in a pool together training, it is is I mean it's pretty much like we're we're we're going toe-to-toe and no matter what it is, no matter what stroke it is, just basically trying to rip each other's head off and and just the pure love and competition of of what we do. Mhm.
I think that that's something that made us very special.
But I mean like the feel I I think that's you know, that's something that that only 1 2 3 4% of people 5% of people in the top of of all sports probably really have any idea what we're talking about. Mhm.
It's quite It's quite funny.
I think just when Michael was talking then I started thinking of the movie Days of Thunder when they're in the wheelchair in the hospital and they come up to each other.
They push forward and then the other one pushes forward.
That's exactly how Michael and I train together.
It's just just constantly pushing each other and and trying to take it to the next level and you just disregard the pain in that.
The goal is always more important.
The outcome is always more important than what you have to go through.
I think that's the way we always approached it.
I'd love to, as background for people listening, provide some context on how the two of you know each other.
And those in the swimming world will know the the the history and the similarities in in trajectory and so on.
But either of you could take a stab at this.
So, I'll let you know, maybe Grant if you want to go first, just to describe the backstory.
How did you guys get to know each other? Uh it's really funny.
I I remember hearing Michael.
I mean, there's a lot happening in our country right now cuz it's a 20-year anniversary since the Sydney Olympic Games.
So, there's plenty going on and that was Michael's first Olympics and I remember when he got fourth, I think, in the 200-m fly there and I was like a 15-year-old on the Australian national swim team. What was it, fifth? Fifth. Come on, man. It was fourth.
Fourth in the 200-m butterfly.
That's close to fourth, though.
So, I'll throw it right next to it.
So, and I remember just thinking, "Wow, what a freak.
A 15-year-old's gotten fifth.
I I wonder if I'll ever hear of him again."
So, and then the next year when he broke the 200-m butterfly world record at the world championships. Was that 1:52? Am I right on that? No, 1:54. I was 4:06 for the year.
Yeah, 4:06, 54 in the 9 and in spring.
So, and then I couldn't believe that a 16-year-old actually did that.
And and I got to, you know, sort of know Michael from from that moment moving forward and then, you know, then we got to train together and um I think I I just saw eye to eye on Michael on things.
Like, the approach towards swimming, the approach towards competition.
How did you end up training together?
Just for for those who might say, you know, you both sound like you have strong New Jersey accents, but I suspect you're from different places.
How did you end up training together?
Um back in 2003, Michael and his coach Bob just came over to Australia for a coaching conference and so he spent a few weeks in Australia.
few weeks in Australia. So, we ended up training then and and I think at that point in time we we really got to to know each other and I saw Michael's level of application to towards his training and all the new things that he was trying to bring to the sport, like the underwater off every
single wall, which, you know, for for your listeners, Tim, not many too many people know, but when you're in the middle of a race and you're at like the 200, 300, 400 meter mark and then you try and push and go 15 meters off the wall, it it is one of the most difficult things that a person can ever do. It's
It's like a free diver right in the last little bit of holding their breath. Like it is tough.
And and Michael started doing all these sorts of things that I thought, man, I wonder if that'll actually work.
And um and so I I saw just how creative and innovative in the sport that he was.
And he was just a great guy.
Like he was just a really I just enjoyed hanging out.
I would go out to dinner and and do things together.
And I think um uh that the basis of our friendship was kind of in in 2003 kind of springboarded from from there.
And and every time we saw each other at meets cuz we'd obviously be traveling all the time.
We just always connected and got along well.
We and we had a lot of mutual respect for for for each other um and what each other was bringing to the sport.
And and also there was another, you know, sort of counterpart of mine, Ian Thorpe, who's through that era.
And and I think both Michael and I had a lot of respect for Ian.
So, you know, we'd all spent a lot of time together and um and and respect what each other was doing for the sport at that time, too.
And you mentioned uh I'm going to have to do a a follow-up here with with you, Grant, and I'm going to come back to you, Michael, to ask you what you first noticed about Grant.
To you, Grant, when you mentioned innovation and new things being brought to the sport, what what else did you notice?
What were some other examples that you saw in Michael or through Michael?
Michael is the sort of guy that you never ever want to say that he's not going to do something.
You never want to be critical of Michael because he will stick it so far up you it's not funny.
And not many competitors do that.
If I actually said something about one of my competitors or tried to intimidate them a little bit, not even meaning to um half the time, it would get under their skin.
You know, it could almost go into their performance in a negative way.
Do that to Michael and it improves his performance by about 400%.
That is one very early on.
Even when we play golf today, if I'm betting on him on the last hole, it's like this intensity of focus and athletic prowess and everything else you can imagine that makes you great just comes into play.
Even if he's had the worst 17 holes beforehand.
So I'll go from a 20 handicap to a zero in no time and and just on one hole and just to stick it to him. Yeah.
And I keep testing it right because I'll start geeing him up before that hole just to see if my theory about him is correct and 100% of the time I'm proven right.
So that's probably one of the other things about Michael and and you know, that's that's an interesting characteristic that I haven't seen in in many athletes across a lot of sports um that are able to have that ability to increase performance to that extent because of maybe a slight bit of criticism or questioning.
So that that was one of the other things I really noticed about him very very quickly.
I have some additional questions about that but I'll I'll hit snooze on those.
Michael, what did you notice about Grant?
What were your some of your first impressions?
I don't know if you guys or the listeners can pick up but I mean as a kid growing up like I was a massive swimming geek. I was a nerd.
Like I was I was very into it.
I was trying to learn anything I possibly could but also like I I I just respected, you know, other great athletes, other great swimmers and and growing up idolizing, you know, some of the greats that walked before Hackett and I, you know, I I just I I learned so much history.
So being able to understand swimming from a global level very early on, you know, through my sister in a way and and I I just really connected with him and and and as you as you heard with with Thorpe as well, those two guys are probably the two closest swimming friends that I have to this day.
You know, I feel like I was closer with with the Aussies than I was really with the Americans and and so it it it it was kind of strange, but you know, like I I I I do remember those 2003 days, you know, Bob and I were going back to uh some of those old sets a few weeks ago, Hackie, and pretty good seeing some of those kicking sets, some of the pulling sets, um the the underwater stuff that we were doing with fins.
with fins. I mean, just everything and and and that's what I mean, like you know, there there aren't many athletes that can really take it to that that level uh back-to-back days and and you know, that was something that I that I
saw in Hackie and and obviously I I respected the hell out of and um you know, the chance that we got to to spend together was always very special, always very meaningful, and you know, obviously he turned into, you know, more of a brother than anything else. And it's
And it's been cool to see.
It's been oh my gosh, unbelievable. So many great stories.
I'm a scatterbrain, so I'm popping all over the place and I feel like I'm going to take some of your questions away, so I'll stop.
Feel free to bounce around, scatterbrain.
I've made an entire career out of it on this podcast, so feel free.
Grant, I want I want to ask you about intensity, and I'm going to do it in a somewhat sideways fashion, but both of you are known for being beasts in training and having just ungodly work capacities.
And I don't know if I'm getting the hours right.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but 30 to 40 hours of training a week, maybe more at times.
I I want you to correct that in your in your answer if need be, but it seems like the combination of that volume plus the intensity that you're both famous for would drive anyone into the ground, and I'm just curious how you prevented that from happening.
If if maybe you could speak to that, Grant.
Yeah, I think um you know, first and foremost, around the 30 to 40 hours, that's right.
We would train anywhere from kind of 5 to 7 hours a day, um 6 days a week.
I know Michael would do 7 days a week.
I think he trained like 530 540 days straight um into Beijing, so he knows all all about that application. Yeah, what was that?
A lot of more than that, but it's okay.
It's like five five or six straight years. Yeah.
So, I mean, that degree of application is one thing, but you're right.
You have to be doing it better, faster, harder than the guy on the other side of the world.
And um and I think um the goal, the outcome was just so strong, the desire, um and I think when something is so meaningful and and purposeful to to you as an individual, you're willing to to do anything.
And it's funny, the body does get used to it to an extent.
You get used to getting up at 4:45, you know, doing that 8 km, doing it to the intensity that you need to, then going into the gym for 90 minutes, doing that, then going back in the afternoon and doing it all again.
So, um and it and it's amazing how much more you can absorb um than what you give yourself credit for, but one of the things I always tried to do is whenever my coach would set something um like an insanely hard set, and if I finished it, I would do one or two more reps.
And he was known as, you know, having one of the top three intense programs in the world from a lot of the physiologists out there.
So, I always just try to take it to the next level every single time.
I knew with my event, which probably is different to some of the finesse that Michael had in in his events in terms of his underwater and skills, for me it was about being tough.
And and he's trained with a a great 1,500-m swimmer called Eric Fants, so he knows the intensity and the the mindset.
And and I was very similar to Eric in terms of if you have to pull me out of the water after the session and put me in an ambulance, I do not care, as long as I get every ounce out of myself.
And you've got to show up with that attitude every day because that's how tough the guys are that you're racing.
And it's just it's just the way it is.
And I think when you get the wins, it keeps you going, right?
It keeps you going to the next step.
It makes the the the bits a little bit more digestible.
And and I just love that feeling.
I just love that feeling afterwards.
And and I knew when I rocked up to race day that if I'd done that work, that no one was ever going to touch me in my race.
And that And that's like the thing though because it's like, you know, like there are days obviously you don't want to go, Grant, right?
Like there like every day wasn't perfect for us.
So it's like, you know, like on those days you have to be able to find that 10, 20, 30, 50% you know, instead of zero where you could just full on punt the whole day, the workout, skip, like be lazy, like do whatever the hell you wanted to.
So it's like, you know, like to be the as consistent as we both were like throughout our career, literally every every single session, every single stroke matter. Mhm.
Um so, you know, like that that's like it's probably for the listeners out there like it was the smallest, finest details you could possibly think about.
You know, we we had to think or we we had to go through and fine-tune daily.
Like I like I I almost talked to it as like uh you're you're you're going to college and and the top level is the 10,000 level class or the 1,000 level class, whatever the hell you want to call it.
You know, if you skip a few of those classes, like you're missing key steps that are going to help you at the very top level.
When the lights are on, when you know, you might have had a bad night's sleep or your roommate might be sick or maybe the food in the dining hall wasn't very good or your air conditioning doesn't work.
You know, so it's like all of the things that you're doing daily are prepping you for any kind of situation that you're going to face at the Olympics, at world championships, whatever your big event is. Totally.
And I suppose that's that's something that wasn't in my mind when I asked the question and that is it's not just about developing more strength.
It's not just about developing the brute attributes.
It's also about the smallest technical details that you have to train to be second nature for competition.
Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show.
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Are there any particular Michael tools or techniques for recovery that you found to really pull their weight so to speak, and and have an impact because as a as a mere you know, 5'8" uh meat cube, I'm not really built for hydrodynamics.
I think about training as you did for 5 to 6 years straight, and I just can't imagine a human body withstanding that without some portfolio of recovery techniques.
Was there anything that stands out we I mean, we had to be.
Like, we we we had to be on top of everything.
You know, like trying to Like I was saying before, trying to do something that no one's ever done before, you know, have the give yourself the chance.
It's like you you you really have to approach it in every single different way possible than ever has been done before.
So, you know, there there there is no blueprint for it.
So, for us, it was, you know, one step at a time.
And And for me to be able to to to swim at such a high level every single day, I I I had to be on top of whether it's nutrition, sleeping, drinking water, you know, like I I I treated my body like I was a Ferrari.
You know, like I I treated my body like I'm a high-performance race car because I I I'm asking it to do so many things.
So, you know, I was sleeping probably 8 to 10 hours a night with a 2-hour nap during the day.
I was eating 8 to 10,000 calories a day.
Ice tub, massages, uh I had one like PT strength conditioning guy for 15 years.
That was did all of my massages, all of my stretching, all of my Graston, all of my cupping.
I I I had to be super super anal about it because I I needed to ask my body to do so many things every single day.
So, I guess I'm kind of old school.
Like, I I never really got into cryo or anything like that.
But but still to this day, like I I I work out 6 7 days a week.
And And, you know, for me to be able to do everything I need to do from playing golf, having enough energy with the kids and and doing everything I need to do personally, I have to recover.
So, I am stretching probably 45 minutes a day.
Uh I'm I'm probably I still have it once, maybe twice a week I go to acupuncturist cupping twice a week.
So, you know, I I I think LeBron said something about it earlier in the year.
He spends uh a million dollars a year on recovery.
And honestly, like that just makes sense to me because if he's like like from what I just said, you know, he's asking his body to do so much at such a high level.
It's like you you have to treat it like it like it should be treated, right?
You know, you have to give it everything it needs.
Um and and and that's the very basic stuff.
So, I mean, I have all of my stats like blood work, sleep numbers, um lactate numbers, anything you can possibly imagine about health or recovery, I I have it logged for the last 15 years, 20 years of my career.
So, uh I was extremely anal.
Yeah, I mean, I I was very anal about it because I I I needed to be. I was selfish in a way. Yeah.
That makes all the world of sense.
And I think I think we're going to come back to that that focus and uh the the pros and cons of it.
Grant, I'd love to ask you about anything you have found helpful for sleep.
And that that comes to mind because Michael, you just mentioned it.
You also mentioned LeBron James who's been on this podcast and has a number of different techniques including using Calm app and other technological tools for helping with getting to sleep.
Did you find anything in particular, I mean, aside from training many many hours a day, which I'm sure helps, uh for sleep during your training or post uh competitive career?
Yeah, I I always found um you know, that some of the apps are great.
I I actually used to put on um one of these apps that used to just have the rainwater um coming down and falling on the leaves and and those sorts of just calming type of things. It's really funny.
To today, the best way I find to fall asleep is just breathing exercises.
And and just focusing away from from everything that, you know, kind of matters in your life around work and, you know, the things that you're responsible for that, you know, normally keep you awake at night.
But, um it it's it's quite funny.
To to Michael's point, just around recovery, you know, sleep is is obviously the ultimate thing to to rest the body. And I track everything.
You know, I'm sitting here with, you know, one watch on one hand, another one on the other hand.
And I don't even know if either of them tell the time, but they're tracking my heart rate variability.
They're they're tracking my sleep.
They're tracking my recovery.
You know, and and I check these stats like there's no tomorrow, like I'm still a professional athlete.
I think you're just hardwired to be like that.
But, you know, and and it depends what phase you're going through your career.
You know, there was points where I had injuries and my shoulder would just be my shoulders would be aching at night.
So, I'd be sitting there with bags of peas on my shoulders just to get the inflammation down.
And you know, there there's so many different sort of cycles throughout my career where, yeah, you'd have trouble sleeping.
Sometimes I would feel that the pressure too much coming into to competitions after time for some reason.
And and those are the the the difficult times where, you know, you need your recovery more than ever, but you're you're finding it hard to to be able to get that rest.
So, you know, what's good for one person is not necessarily good for another.
But, what I know today is if I just did a lot more meditation, a lot more things of slowing down, a lot more mindfulness, those are the sorts of things that would have helped me a lot more throughout my career cuz they're great techniques that I use today.
And and I probably sleep better today because of, you know, just the foundation of knowledge that I've been able to build over the time because we were just so anal and just so focused on on on recovery and trying to find ways to go, "Okay, the the body is gone.
How am I going to give it back?"
To to Michael's point, "This is not a tractor. It's a Ferrari.
And if a bolt's a little bit loose, this thing will not perform.
So, everything has got to be right.
I used to if I had to walk somewhere, I would sit down as soon as I got there just so my hip flexors wouldn't tighten up because I wasn't as good a kicker as what Michael was or Ian Thorpe.
So, I had to do everything on my legs.
I was better on the upper body. Um I could do that. I could pull.
It's It's called pulling.
Just you know, you would sort of tie your legs up and you know, swim with your arms only.
That was my strength, but my lower wasn't.
So, I used to just be fixated on that every minute of the day to make sure whenever I rocked up to training and particularly competition, my legs were loose, my hip flexors had full range, and and I was going to get the most out of them.
So, yeah, it's an obsession and and that's the way it needs to be.
Yeah, I was uh spending some time Grant with a one of our mutual friends who's who's uh deep in training right now, and we were hiking and he said, "This is great.
I just can't do too much hiking." And I said, "Why not?"
And he said, "Because I don't want my ankles to be overly stable or uh strengthened because I need the flexibility.
I want the the looseness in the ankles."
And I was like, "Wow, that's not something I hear every day."
It's It's the only only sport where you want loose angle ankles.
You you look at tennis players, they got all the support in place.
We're doing the opposite.
We'll have a panel of wood where you know, you got a strap across the top and you chuck your foot in there and you're leaning back to try and create more flexion and angle.
And that's the thing like Michael and and Ian Thorpe are incredibly flexible and incredibly strong and incredibly mobile.
And I And I didn't have that that last part around the the mobility that these guys have because think about it, your feet are like flippers in the water.
So, if you get that extra bit of angle and you get that flick right at the end, it's going to propel you just that little bit more.
And um you know, I'm sitting here at an Olympic Games where I got two silver medals.
I think it's over the course of about you know, 1,200 m of racing and they're by 0. 2 of a second in total.
So, you know, every little bit matters.
Michael, I want to revisit a name that has come up a lot so far in this conversation and that is Ian Thorpe.
And it it ties into what Grant was saying about using critical or negative or doubting comments as rocket fuel for your motivation. Yeah.
In the course of doing homework for this conversation, I came across a note on Wikipedia that said uh Which which quote that he he has two quotes.
Yeah, so Yeah, there there was two of them that I remember. Go ahead.
I'm I'm interested to see which one you have.
So, Wikipedia, feel free to correct any of this.
It's not It's not so much a direct quote.
It just says Thorpe initially said that it would be highly unlikely for Phelps to win eight gold medals at the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing.
Phelps used the remarks as motivation and taped the words to his locker during the games.
So, I just wanted to fact-check that. Is it Is that true? 100% without question. Yeah.
What were the words that you put on your locker?
Uh you know, I think at that time, Bob and I were were um you know, a lot of the a major chunk of my career, I'd say, we we were big on, you know, highlighting different uh quotes or times and you know, that people had done or um things that we were trying to do.
So, you know, like for me, like every morning I got out of bed and and I saw my goal sheet of of the times I wanted to do that year or at the Olympics or whatever written down.
So, when I was getting out of bed, I was getting out of bed with a purpose.
Um so, then when I got to the pool, that's where that quote was.
Just honestly, if I if I was kind of having an off day, I used that as a as Hack he said, a little extra fuel.
Um that was something that if somebody did say it was impossible, I was going to shove that so far up that I was going to make him eat their words no matter what.
Um like that was the the that there was no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
And again in 2016, I believe he said uh something along the lines of it'll be impossible or uh almost impossible to see somebody over the age of 30 win an individual gold medal.
And funny enough, I I was giving him [ __ ] about it after the Olympics uh in '16 and and he goes, "I know how you work."
He said, "So I I was helping you give that, you know, get that extra fuel to really give you some extra motivation to to really make sure you kick some ass."
So um you know, he he you know, to like to Grant's point though, like I I I knew Grant probably better than any other athlete in the world.
I knew Thorpe better than any other athlete in the world.
And and you know, the same way for them.
You know, like we we just we knew about each other because we we we all were just trying to learn whatever we could and use it into our our everyday lifestyle to to help us accomplish the goals that we wanted. Mhm.
And to to Ian's credit or defense, I'll I I will read one of the actual quotes that's in Wikipedia in which he says, quote, "I'm really proud of him, not just because he won eight golds, rather it's how much he has grown up and matured into a great human being.
Never in my life have I been so happy to have been proved wrong."
So ultimately was proved wrong.
And as we're talking about this translation of using the negative or the critical into rocket fuel, like you said Grant, it is at least in my experience, which is very limited, but it's rare to see.
The one other exception that I can think of, and and maybe you guys will have uh have seen this, is Michael Jordan in The Last Dance.
Where every episode there is an example of this.
And someone will say something to him, and then they'll say, "Fuck, shouldn't have done that."
And he comes back and breaks some universal record in the next quarter.
And it was so remarkably consistent.
And yet, when you flash forward and you are watching this this current-day footage of Michael, you can't help but get the feeling that he is still very angry, but he has lost target at which he can direct this anger.
And so, I'm curious to hear from you, Michael, cuz I've lived in my life with a lot of anger.
And have you found that to cut both ways?
What has been your experience with anger during the competitive years or afterwards?
Uh I mean, naturally, I hack you can agree.
I I I carry a lot of uh a lot of anger.
Uh and and a lot of that I would say stems from my childhood and, you know, some of the things that I experienced.
But I also think anger is is really really what what did fuel me on those days where I just didn't want to swim.
Um you know, those those were the biggest things.
It It was almost like turning a switch on in a way.
You know, I I'll say now, knowing what I know about depression, knowing what I know about anxiety, mental health, and and about myself as well, uh I I know that I can approach my life or anything that I do in my life like I did in swimming just because I I I guess I could say I was a professional or I was a doctor or whatever the hell you want to call me in in the swimming world.
But like I understood swimming, you know, I I'd like to think almost better than anybody.
And, you know, I definitely have a feel for it.
So, you know, I I I don't have enough practice doing what I'm doing now in life.
So, you know, I I I do have to take steps back and and take deep breaths or, you know, I I found that through COVID my wife and I's communication level has gone up another level.
You know, so it's like little things like that for me.
I I I'm constantly learning more and more about myself and about why I am how I am.
So, yeah, do I still get angry?
Of course, but I play a lot of golf.
I, you know, as I said, I work out six or seven days a week.
I'm I I lift weights three days a week.
I um for anywhere 60 to 90 minutes and then the other four days I'm either swimming, I am riding a stationary bike, or I am on uh an elliptical.
So, you know, those are kind of outlets for me, but it does get scary at times and you know, I will say Hacky has always been there for me through any single moment of my life um through those dark times.
You know, but I I I can also say, you know, during this quarantine it it you know, it's been difficult for me.
Um you know, I I I've been very open about that recently and and and through all of this and and you know, I can imagine that it's been difficult for more and more people and and, you know, I'll say the one thing, you know, to the listeners out there who are listening to it, you're you're not alone.
You know, that's the one thing I I truly truly want to repeat and you'll hear me say it a lot of times through this podcast, but, you know, you you are definitely not alone with your thoughts, your emotions, but if you are afraid or you're scared or nervous, reach out to somebody for help, a trained therapist or a trained doctor.
Um this is This is just a very uncertain time for everybody in the world.
So, that was a little rant. So, go ahead. Yeah, I enjoy rants.
That's why we have a long format.
You mentioned dark times.
I'd like to talk about this because I I feel like both of you have been very open uh about this, which is a huge service.
I mean, it is a huge public service to people who feel alone, and it's a huge public service to people who feel like they are uniquely flawed or are in a place of shame because the mental health and depression and so on can be very stigmatized uh still.
Michael, could you speak to when you knew you needed help or when you hit rock bottom?
Could you just tell the story of uh that moment or moments?
The first time I experienced depression, I would say it was back in 2004.
You know, coming back after all that great success, and you know, obviously you expect it to to continue, and you know, you get back and it's good for, you know, a week or so, and then you kind of feel like you fall off the face of the earth.
So, for me, it was it was just beginning to open talk about these things.
Honestly, like I I felt there was a a weight lifted off my shoulders.
You know, these were things that uh I I carried for, you know, probably 20 years, 15 years, and and um you know, when when I really do get into those dark times, I I basically isolate myself and and give everybody the Heisman because I I I almost feel like I am causing more stress to their life or I'm a burden or this that or the other.
So, like I I go strictly internal and almost like I pick at scabs or like like internal scabs that, you know, really hurt.
So, like I I almost try to inflict pain, but not literally inflict pain.
So, it it it it gets bad, and and and when it does get bad, it really spirals.
And also, one thing, Hackie Hackie was over here.
That was uh 2 years ago, Hackie? Yeah, 2 2 years ago. Yeah, 2018.
Yeah, I mean, that was that was one of the scariest ones that, you know, I've really experienced.
And and I honestly I feel like I'm alone.
I feel like everybody is attacking me, and yeah, it's just a it's an uncomfortable feeling, but, you know, I I I basically, I guess the easiest way for describing it would be like a a a turtle going back into its shell.
I want more than anything to feel like like I am a human being because I I I feel like that's what I am.
You know, I I I feel like yeah, I you know, I had a great talent and you know, I put my mind to something and [ __ ] I didn't give up.
I went through ups and downs and you know, I was able to accomplish some pretty amazing goals.
But you know, at at times like I feel like I'm a you know, almost a piece of meat and and an object and you know, I think especially during those times when I start going there you know, when I when when I'm in dark times and start going there, it just it it it's just downward spirals.
it's just downward spirals. So, that's why you know, I I I alluded earlier to talking about you know, how much my my my and my wife's communication has really just grown through quarantine because I would say I had a similar incident, you know, like I had in 2018
where you know, it was very scary and and you know, I know Nicole was doing you know, everything she could to help and you know, we were almost forced to grow and to change as a couple because of the current situation and and um the situation at the time. It was
It was difficult, but honestly like I I that's the coolest thing for me that that that I am so excited about with having depression or with having anxiety.
You know, because it it it it honestly makes me who I am and and you know, it's I I understand it's never going to be fixable and and it's a part of me for the rest of my life. But you know, what?
I think it's it's something that I want to learn more about and something I'm excited to wake up every day and have that chance to learn more about.
So, um you know, like that's why I'm so you know, I've spoken about my wife and I just just communicating so much more.
It's it's crazy to to even think that that was possible.
Um but just going over leaps and bounds, you know, it's just learning more and more about how we both work and and things we need to be careful of so we don't trigger one another.
It's been a uh almost a blessing in disguise for us.
If I could just jump back to one thing that you said Whatever you did please always.
And if I'm if I'm misquoting please please correct me but for those who aren't familiar could you describe what made 2018 scary? What was the experience?
Uh I mean in 2018 I actually took a pair of golf shoes and I hit myself in the head with them.
Uh that was that was one of the very last times that I tried to inflict pain on myself.
And and I knew at that point like that was like that right there I I've never done something like that.
I've never even thought about doing something like that and the fact that I did that right there was was was a message for me.
It was a you know it was a red flag.
So you know coming back to the house and and you know I had a kind of a meltdown but you know with Grant talking to Grant talking to you know my wife you know like that was that was just a learning experience.
Like there like for me like I basically am you know a pot of water like at at at the at the very last second I'm ready to blow and when I blow it's pretty bad and it gets pretty ugly.
I would say throughout my career I'm great at compartmentalizing.
I I would say I could probably win a few more gold medals at that but that's not something to be proud of.
So you know so so I think like you know that's that's one thing that I've learned you know to just just to really talk about you know I've learned more about my emotions and and if I have something I don't like I talk about it or I ask questions about it.
You know so I think you know with the experiences that I've gone through and the struggles that I've gone through I feel like I have almost let my guard down in a way you know if that kind of makes sense you know like like drop my shoulders like taking a deep breath and and you know just tried to relax you know cuz I think throughout my whole entire life I've been trying to shave hundreds of a second off my time right?
And and now it for for everyday life I'm I'm trying to slow it down.
So it's it's crazy now for me to look at life.
So it's it's yeah the the last four years have been interesting but but that in 2018, you know, that that to this day was one of the scariest times of my life.
That and 2014 after my second DUI.
We talked about sleeping earlier and I have opened up more and more about this story just because it it's it's a part of me.
So, basically throughout a whole entire life throughout my entire life I I most of my swimming career I we were prescribed Ambien for traveling for trips, you know, the try to acclimate to times and and that night after my DUI I was happy that I only had two Ambien left.
That was a sleep aid that I had and and and who knows what would have happened if I had more.
You know, I think those two moments for me are are the two scariest moments of my life and and you know, recently, you know, I'd say within the last handful of weeks like I've I've had a couple real scary breakdowns where you know, I almost really start shaking because I I I just don't know what to do.
I'm I I yeah, I I don't know how to control anything and um I I yeah, that's about it. Mhm.
Thank you for sharing, Michael.
No, it's no, it's but it's yeah, for but it's like, you know, like like honestly for for me, yes, it is uh it's it's wild to think about it's wild to talk about, but you know, it's it's it's what makes me me and and you know, hell, if I can learn from just understanding why I why I am certain ways or why I react certain ways, then I feel like I'm setting myself up to be a better person and and and at the end of the day, that's all I want.
I I I want to learn more.
You know, you've heard us talk about stats, numbers.
Like I want to know stats. I want to know numbers. I want to know why.
Like I just have I don't know why why why to every single question that you can possibly think about.
So, you know, like I I just I always know there's so many other options out there and and you know, if I come to a dead end, I can reach out to one of those options or or you know, I can backtrack a few steps and and take a different route.
And so, yeah, you know, I I I think really trying to simplify life and trying to slow things down for me is probably those are the two things that that I would say I focus on on a daily daily basis.
Yeah, just to just to give myself a chance. Mhm. Yeah.
And uh Grant, I'm going to come back to you in in just a minute because I I want to sort of do a similar expedition into some of the dark chapters to hear your stories.
Before we get to that, I am looking at just a paragraph from an ESPN article that includes you, Michael, and I want to read a small portion of it and ask a question. So, here's the portion.
It says, "In treatment, Phelps earned the nickname Preacher Mike because each day began with a chapter of The Purpose Driven Life, a book given to him by former Baltimore Ravens linebacker and good friend Ray Lewis."
I don't know if you would still recommend this book or how you feel about it, but are there any books or resources that you have found particularly helpful in your journey in experiencing these things?
Um so, I have a a very close friend of mine who, you know, I I feel very comfortable opening opening up to and asking a lot of questions about um I think you know you you know who I'm talking about, Hackie.
Uh he he passes me a bunch of different books and and some of the ones recently, I guess, like I I I was never somebody who liked to read books and and when Ray gave me that book, I wasn't I wasn't spiritual in any way.
Like I I had, you know, I wasn't religious, but, you know, I think through my journey I I I 100% am spiritual.
Without question, there is a power that's greater than me.
I don't know what it is, you know, but but through my journey, I feel like I have learned so much from the books that I have received.
The Purpose Driven Life is one amazing one.
The Power of Now is an amazing one.
Um Ego is the Enemy is one that I go back to a lot.
Um Um, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a [ __ ] is a great one.
Um, I I loved uh It Takes What It Takes.
I thought that was a great one.
Just little thing like little books like that where where I can, you know, for me when whenever I'm listening like I I tend to do Audibles and and you know, when I'm listening to it I really just It's what we all we're all supposed to do, but I I love just taking little small pieces that that are similar to things that I did in my career.
You know, like for me to be as efficient as I was in swimming I I had to learn the absolute bottom line of every single stroke, right?
Like I had to be as efficient as I could with my body that I was given.
So, it's like I've almost done that in ways.
It's opened my mind in some really interesting new thoughts.
It's given me, you know, new journeys to to travel down, you know, roads to go down.
But, yeah, I mean I I would say I I cycle through a lot of those depending on uh as you heard before the the dark moods that I'm in.
I went back to The Subtle Art of Not Giving a [ __ ] just because I I felt like I was just attacking myself too much and and uh I I just needed to get a handle of of a few things and and do what I'm teaching my kids.
You know, take a lion breath.
Take a deep breath every once in a while and relax.
You know, it's not it's not you know, it's not about racing the clock in every single thing that you do in your life.
Um, so that's one one big big key thing for me is just trying to be as simple as in in every form of life as I possibly can and and it's honestly it's it's looking at my kids and that's the greatest example.
You know, I mean we were talking about it earlier.
My my two oldest boys were playing with a metal trash can the other day.
You know, one of the trash cans where you step on it the lid pops up.
One of them is bang One is banging on the top like it's a drum.
The other one is stomping on the lid and I was like, "Boomer, what are you guys doing?"
And without missing a beat, he looks over and said, "Dad, I've never seen one of these things before."
And like I I couldn't do anything but start laughing.
So, I was like, "All right, yeah, whatever. Like, go ahead."
Like, meanwhile, there's a hundred different noises going on.
Um and like my I mean, I was going crazy, but I I I just I laughed out loud.
Like, I I damn near fell on the ground laughing.
I was like, that's what kids are.
Like, they they are the best example of really living in the moment.
And it's it's, you know, for me, I feel like having having the time that I have around around my kids during this quarantine, like I I I feel like I I've I have a few things that I can kind of log into the memory bank and go back to when Boomer's pressing that red button that I hate to be pressed inside of me and he's trying to get my nerves and and go crazy on me.
So, but kids are kids and and honestly, I I've seen the and what one of the coolest things is they want to be us so bad and honestly, they they just love us and and, you know, it's it's uh you know, for me, I told you I told you we'd get tears.
Um Uh for for me, honestly, it's taken some of the dark times that I've been through.
Um you know, just you know, just literally being crying and and having your kids come up and give you a hug.
You know, like those things, like that right there, um you know, it's the greatest thing in on the planet.
So, yeah, like they're I mean, it's just been it's it's been a treat and and uh yeah, as a dad, it's it's the greatest feeling in the world. Thank you, Michael.
Uh Grant, we're going to go back into the depths here a bit.
I was going to say, if you want to keep if you want to keep going, you can. It doesn't matter to me.
I was going to say I just need a second to wipe the tears off, then I'm good.
Uh I've already been through a whole heap of emotions just listening to that.
Just going back to, you know, 2018 and and that day when, you know, Michael is, you know, not Michael or or was Michael, you know, just the the the other side of success, you know.
So, I don't know, I just um you know, it was tough to to listen to that.
I actually had water in my eyes just listening to it cuz it was um you know, seeing one of your your best mates um that you've known for so long and been through everything together um just go through that. It it was it was brutal.
It was really really tough. Sounds brutal. Mhm.
What if What if your personal experience?
What did the dark times look like for you?
Are there any particular instances that come to mind in terms of knowing when you needed help or hitting rock bottom?
The first thing I'll say um at the outset, it's it's really funny.
As as an athlete, you you were told from day one.
I mean, I started swimming when I was four and and being competitive when I was five.
Like so, everything throughout my childhood and throughout my sporting career was, "Hey, if there's an obstacle, go through it, overcome it, beat it.
You're injured, you're sick, whatever.
Just turn into a gladiator and just keep going forward. That is your job."
So, and it was almost like adversity was your friend.
And and you used to I I I call the expression now with mental health, it's like I got used to iron fisting my way through difficult periods in life. And that's not right.
That's great as an athlete.
That's a great attribute to have to push through pain and overcome those challenges to get the outcome.
But but in life, that actually doesn't work and I found that out the hard way and I I realized how real mental health was.
So, I think you know, for for me, I I I remember I've you know, been through the ups and downs and I really never recognized that about myself because I just kind of thought, "Okay, just put your boots back on and keep going."
But you know, a few years ago when you know, I went through a a really public divorce here in Australia and everything that followed from that and innuendo and speculation and and you know, people questioning your value set um just undid me.
And I I and I just didn't realize how much it undid me and how much it took me down and uh you know, I got to a point where, you know, early 2017, you know, just kind of one more thing.
It's one more thing where I was sitting in a in a hotel room completely isolated, two security guards on that floor, so no one would come near my room, you know, sitting on the front page of the newspaper and the news, just what what's going on with me and and then I I I think the four days that I had there and I was texting Michael at the time.
I literally had over a thousand messages in my phone on WhatsApp, on and on my SMS within about a three-hour time frame.
And I think I I got back to three people and Michael was one of them.
And Allison Schmidt who you know, lived with Michael, too.
Uh were the only people that I got I got back to and I think I used words like I'm just scared.
And everyone thinks you're invincible for for what you've done, but you know, like everybody else, you just have those vulnerabilities and when it's so public, it just exaggerates the situation and amplifies it and creates another layer of complexity that you have to deal I just made a commitment to myself, I think at the end of that, that I'm never going to allow myself to get to this spot again.
Like anytime that I I feel like you know, you're getting pushed to that edge or things are going wrong, I'm just going to adopt the strategies that I now know instead of denial.
Cuz I would always put myself in denial.
I wouldn't let myself be vulnerable.
And even my my fiance Charlene now, like if I start talking about the way I'm feeling in in isolation or going through a stressful period and and she goes, "Oh, she she is so proud of me."
She goes, "Oh, I just love it when you're vulnerable."
And I said, "Oh, I feel like a bit of a [ __ ] to be honest, but yeah, cool."
And so it's like, you know, and then I'm like, "Wow, I feel better afterwards."
You know, that that open and honest transparency and my relationship is better as well.
So, it's like, well, doing doing this vulnerability thing which was the number one thing that I found I had to tap into going through those stages in life and phases.
Um whenever they embark upon upon you.
And they they come across at the weirdest times, too.
Like even when things are great and going well, sometimes that's it can be a low point um after that they have to deal with that.
So, yeah, I mean I I made that decision back in 2017.
I basically lived with Michael most of that year.
Um and and he was he was my biggest supporter.
Um and you know, when I went and did, you know, therapy and got some help, he was the guy who, you know, drove me there and dropped me off and we had talks till 2:00 or 3:00 a. m.
sometimes, you know, later in the in the morning and he'd come in and wake me up in the morning with the dogs and Boomer crawling on the bed all over me, which I really appreciated, but you know, it's it's those sorts of times where, you know, we'll just always be there for each other, but people see us
as these people who have achieved great things and won multiple Olympic gold medals and and world records and all that sort of stuff, but yeah, just cuz you're good at something doesn't mean that you don't, you know, fall into the same fate as everybody else when it comes to to mental health or or just being a human. And um yeah, I had to learn those
And um yeah, I had to learn those things definitely the hard way.
You were mentioning the the vulnerability with uh your significant other.
I was just having a conversation last week with a coach who you could really consider on some level a therapist, and he said to me, "Cander is the ultimate aphrodisiac."
And uh seems it seems to have a lot of benefits, not just singular benefits, and you mentioned strategies.
I'd love to hear what other rules or strategies you have found or developed for yourself, so that when you when you sense yourself edging towards the brink, you're better able to reel yourself away from it.
I think um just doing everything proactively.
I I exercise like Michael, you know, six six days a a I I try and make myself have a recovery day, um which is hard when you've got personalities like ours.
Um we don't we we know the importance of recovery, but we just like to keep going and going and going. Uh so that's one thing.
The other thing that I do, it's funny I went to stop, you know, sort of drinking um for a year.
And then I got to a year and I was kind of like, "You know what?
I don't even feel like drinking anymore."
Kind of um and it's not like I was ever a person who drank every day by any means.
It would be far and few between, but I could go go hard if we were, you know, have a have a night with the boys or or something like that. Or use it to escape.
So, you know, I I stopped drinking. So, full stop.
Like I got to a year and I was like, "You know what?
I don't I don't even feel like that anymore.
It's not something in my life that I value or I like or it brings value to it to me." So, um I don't do that.
I also make sure that I I get enough sleep.
Um that's really important uh for me.
That's uh I eat very healthy.
Um you know, diet has been a big part and just that that whole sort of health regime that I have to follow just to make sure that I'm in a in a good space.
So, and and the one thing that I still find difficult that I do and you know, we just touched on it is I talk about it.
I talk about where I'm at, how I'm feeling, why I'm feeling like that instead of bottling it up.
Um Michael and I we're we're the kings of compartmentalizing things and actually just locking them away.
I'll I'll deal with that box when I need to deal with that box, but unfortunately that box is growing and being fueled.
And when it goes goes, then it's not good. It's not good at all.
And and Michael and I know this best.
So, I I try and jump into that box and I and I try and work through it. Try and get it out.
And and and so I I think for me it's it's all that sort of proactive stuff that I'm doing that and and I feel more settled in my my life now than I ever have. And you know what?
And and I know this with Nicole cuz I know, you know, Michael's wife extremely well and and the the wonderful human being that she is.
Um just how good she is for Michael in that situation and how much he cares and loves him.
Like it's actually beautiful to watch.
It makes me, you know, I I cuz I've been through this stuff with her, you know, like and and you know, we've spoken about how we would we're there for Michael and you know, Charlene's the same for me.
Like, I I just that partnership of someone who gets you, like she gets me.
She gets my my drive and ambition and and yet that that other mental, you know, sort of fault that you whatever you want to call it, vulnerability, those things that that are imperfect.
She gets that and she likes it and works with me on it.
And and I so I think uh I haven't necessarily had the right partnerships in in in life as well.
So, I think, Tim, that's a really important part of who you're surrounding yourself by, but that that significant other can make and break in many respects, too, because they've got to connect with a unique personality, which I I know Michael and I certainly um share uniqueness like that.
So, you know, they're they're kind of the the the things that really matter.
And I look, it's been a journey to to get to know all those things cuz I've I've made so many mistakes along the way, but I just know what makes me feel like more of me now and and feels like a purpose and and the things that, you know, help support and and maintain that.
Grant, do you see a someone like a therapist on a regular basis or are they used only in cases of emergency or beginning to redline?
I do if I've gone through, you know, a hard sort of period.
I I won't say on a consistent sort of week-to-week, month-to-month basis.
Um but if I am going through a stressful period, I've definitely got that support network there.
And and I'll jump online, um have a talk, get it out.
Um cuz sometimes it's it's and I've learned this, too.
I didn't have really use a sports psychologist too much when I was swimming cuz I always thought, you know, I was invincible.
So, and that was a weakness if I had to tap into that.
Um little did I know that would have really helped me and I'm I might have had a a better trophy cabinet than what than what I've got if I if I recognized that at the time, but now sometimes family members, I know I spoke about significant other then, but I know family members sometimes aren't necessarily the ones you should be tapping into cuz emotion is just too close.
So, having someone a little bit more objective, has the skill set, has the understanding, someone you can have a different type of conversation with is really important.
So, definitely got that network in there.
Tap into it when, you know, that that the flags kind of come up. What are the flags?
Like when do you know it's time to take yourself in for a 60,000 mile checkup with a professional?
What are What are some of the signs that that you notice?
I mean, we spoke about anger before.
Michael, you know, was was talking about that in the way he's able to channel it.
And look, there's a negative connotation with anger cuz it's not always a bad thing.
Sometimes anger can push you to get more out of yourself to deliver an outcome that is amazing, you know?
So, but sometimes it can when you're kind of you're edgy, you're irritable, you're, you know, you're not sleeping well, you know, the things just aren't escaping the mind.
I think all those kind of you know, little red flags that sort of start to add up and compound and and you're just not removing that that stress, that weight.
They're kind of the things that you start to to recognize and go, "Hey, I'm going through a bit of, you know, this this is not just a one-off right now. This is not a two-off.
This is kind of been a little bit more sustained than what I would like and and I think I have a much greater ability to check in with that now than what I've ever had where before it'd be like that little box that I said it goes into or just let's just stuff it back in there with the others and I don't let that happen anymore.
So, yeah, it's just it's it's mood more than anything else.
And if it's a sustained poor mood, then yeah, that's that's the thing that I go, "Okay, we've got to do something about this."
So, you know, I I I I in a situation where I've got twins from a previous marriage and and and I miss them like crazy when they're not here.
And and the impact that that had on me for so many years that I failed to even really talk about has been a big thing that I just highlight now and I'll just go to Shirlene and I'm just like I'm really, you know, missing Jagger or Charlie's or, you know, and I'll just start to talk about it.
And then all of a sudden, you know, you kind of get on the other side of that.
So, they're they're kind of the things that I recognize now that that aren't as big a blind spots as they were previously.
And when you talk to a professional, if you do, what does the format look like?
Is it more about really just getting it off your chest and talking to someone or is there a particular type of guidance or a format that is helpful to you?
Uh I I have a guy who I I tap into and um he's almost got um a comical element to the way he's styled which I really connect to.
So, I I love that because he's extremely intelligent, very very bright.
And look, I'll write down the things that I'm feeling and that that I I feel like I've got to really check in with and and get through and ask questions about. So, I'll do that.
So, that's the structure I come in with.
He'll then just pull out stuff on all of that that just makes it um takes the emotion out of it almost.
It almost goes it's more pragmatic.
He goes, you know, this is why that would happen.
This is why you feel like that. You know what?
You kind of catastrophizing that.
That's not as big as you seem like and then he'll make, you know, comparisons and perspectives uh around other people or other situations and it kind of gives you a different view and it's like he just comes in and provides these additional lenses that I didn't have that he's just given me.
And I kind of cover off all the topics like that and then and we have a laugh through it all, too, once you kind of get on the other side of each of those areas and and so I find that that style um has really worked with me.
It's a good question, Tim.
No one's ever actually asked me that before.
Uh well, I think you know, if I can get one novel question in, I'll be quite pleased with that.
You guys have been interviewed 500 million times, so I'm I'm glad to to to give myself a pat my bald head for that one.
I and I'll I'll I'll follow it up uh because you you mentioned something that I find very interesting and that is sending something in written form to this therapist beforehand.
Is it a stream of consciousness?
I'm feeling this because of this and that there Is it just like one gigantic paragraph or page or is it something else?
That just seems like such a time saver to provide that context to someone in advance so they can actually put some some thought into how they might respond to you.
I think you I mean, you probably got the sense through the chat.
You know, Michael and I were very analytical.
We think through everything and every situation and every outcome.
That's the reason we we know, you know, every time with respect to our events and, you know, the timeline and history of our sport so well and and I think if I'm going to approach something, I might as well do it properly and get the absolute most I can out of it.
So, I it's just dot points.
Um dot points and specific areas.
Like things that have been on my mind.
A dot points dot points are bullet points, I guess, in In Aussie terms. In in Aussie terms, yes.
So, Yeah, yeah, that's right.
I can I can translate for all of that stuff. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Thank you. I got you. I'm fluent. It's good.
When I go over and and stay with Michael, um we'll we'll go out and and I'll say something and he'll repeat it for me and I was like, "Yeah, what what he said."
because no one everyone sort of looks at me like I've got two heads.
But Michael Michael is the ultimate at deciphering Aussie slang. He He knows it all.
Um yeah, so so bullet points is is exactly what I jot down. Bullet points. Yeah, dot points. Yeah.
So, yeah, and so for me that that works.
That they kind of just I cover the areas, the topics that have been on my mind or the situation.
No Normally, it's more of a situation for me.
Day-to-day, I'm I'm pretty good.
It's It's more if I've come across something that's sustained stress or I I can't work through myself.
And look, to to be honest, that seems to be happening a little bit less in my life, but to say in saying that, I know it could intensify at any point in time and I and I recognize that you've got to always stay on top of those things.
And and it's been great for the work that I do now and and and the life that I have and the dad that I am.
I think I've just improved across so many different areas and and it's probably where I refer back to sport.
I'm like, "Damn, I wish I used that sports psychologist a lot more and tapped into that."
I didn't even recognize vulnerability for for a split second throughout basically my entire career.
And I feel like that was a bit of a disaster now.
And it actually probably would have set me up better for for post-sport career as well.
Well, it seems like a lot of superpowers have on the other side of the coin super weaknesses almost by definition, right?
Because if you have a if you have a hyper focus on anything in life, by definition, you have to neglect other things.
You cannot You only have so much attention to slice and dice, right?
Uh and if you're using compartmentalization as one of the tools for optimizing as a competitor, which every competitor I've interviewed on this podcast seems to be very good at, then uh there's sort of a price associated with that when it's uh when it's applied more broadly speaking.
Michael, do you do you meet with therapists or professionals on a on a regular basis? I'm online all the time.
I mean, with everything with traveling as much as I do, uh I spend a lot of time on Talkspace.
I I've worked with Talkspace um for a few years now and and honestly, for as much time as we're on our smartphones, it's it's just kind of a no-brainer.
Uh but but also besides that, like like to Hack's point, I'll be the first one to admit I still compartmentalize a little bit, but I'll say I I I don't think I would make the podium anymore if I was competing in it.
competing in it. So, I I think I've definitely improved, but my big thing is just I I I I pile things up sometimes and and you know, like I can't agree with what Hackie said uh and and what you were saying as well to me like when we did that in our career like like I was almost selfish in in a way where I
everything I was doing in my life is based around something every single decision I made and now at the family it's it's not that way my life is different so I have to take a step back and almost reassess everything that's how I was saying like you know really simplifying everything to the the
smallest form because that's that's what Grant and I you know did during our career and honestly like I was sitting here taking you know notes listening to you know kind of what Grant was Grant does when he's you know kind of feels himself you know spinning I literally was like oh my gosh that's exactly what I had to do if I wanted to learn
underwater dolphin kick or you know like I had to break it down to the simplest form so you know that like that's really what I have to do more and and you know give myself you know a little bit more credit from time to time where where I'm I'm as hard on myself as I am. You are the toughest person on yourself
You are the toughest person on yourself that I know.
that I know. Like Brutal bro like bro I'm I'm sitting here looking at like I mean I can't even I got some of these names that I have on my desk I'm not I'm not going to repeat but I mean Hackie like you know like I I also like I to to Hackie's point like I I love writing stuff down writing stuff
down to see you know like especially with dates you know cuz times for me are so important so if I know I'm going through a dark phase like what was I writing like why was I thinking these things so you know like here like I've felt alone or I felt dark lately um so those are the things that I have written
on my calendar so like I if I sit down I see that I'm like why was I feeling dark like I have so much to be you know happy for I have so much to be proud of like there's so many amazing things going on in this world with me with my life with everything like why am I dark why am I afraid why do I feel worthless almost so
you know like I I feel like writing stuff down really helps and you know like that's why like for for listeners out there in particular like if you guys find ways to simplify things because we we live in a over a crazy crazy moving fat crazy fast-moving world where, you know, there there's always things trying to get our attention. So, if we can
So, if we can simplify things and focus on what's important to us, you know, I think it just it it makes our life easier, right?
Like, there's there's less stress to worry about.
So, and then and you hear Hacky like Hacky talk like communicating.
[ __ ] I made the joke that I learned how to communicate at the age of 30.
Yeah, it's it's it's laugh about it because I like I was really good at compartmentalizing, but like that's not good.
So, you know, like that that's that's why I like I I talked so much about this this quarantine and and, you know, how much it's forced us to become vulnerable in a way because there's so much unknown.
So, it's like if we want to give ourselves a chance, then we have to do something different.
So, you know, if it's opening up and talking about something that is scary, try it.
You know, cuz like I I'll say like all this stuff that that, you know, I've I've talked about, you know, throughout that that happened throughout my career.
I mean, should I carry that thing along like all that stuff along for 10 years?
So, you know, like having that out and and open not it one makes it so much easier to talk about, but two, it like there's there's so much less weight on my shoulders.
I feel I feel normal, you know, like like talking about this stuff that I know there's so many other people that go through the same thing or in similar different ways.
Like I like I I I I I don't know.
Like I just I feel so much better.
Like my shoulders drop and and that's just something that I will always say and and try to push.
There's a weight There's a weight to secrets or keeping things inside or there can be.
And it makes me also want to mention that there is a a new documentary HBO documentary out called The Weight of Gold in which you're featured very heavily. Why be part of that?
Uh and I think we've probably mentioned a lot of the reasons why, but and and maybe a better question cuz that's kind of a lazy question and I should know better.
Better question is how does it feel having done that?
Uh and maybe you could maybe you could describe It feels Yeah, yeah, yeah, please please please say more and and just for those who don't have any context, The Weight of Gold is an HBO sports documentary, very very well shot, exploring the mental health challenges that Olympic athletes often face.
Just wanted to provide that since I didn't explain it, but could you could you expand say more about Sure, sure, sure, sure.
what it felt like to do that?
As you've heard or as people have seen or read, I I I struggled, you know, throughout my whole career.
So, you know, in 2016 where I I was probably, you know, more aware of just life in general and everything that was going on more than I ever have in my life.
So, you know, at that point, I I saw that there were other athletes that were going through similar things like I was, you know, going through opening ceremonies and seeing athletes, you know, almost body language.
Like I I I feel like that's something that I've learned to read really well over over, you know, throughout my life, but I started like reading people, but I also started hearing things that people were saying, you know, seeing things that people were posting or this or that and I was like, oh, like literally I said, oh, [ __ ] This is a lot bigger than I thought.
You know, because I I I always knew it was, you know, mental health in general was something that was very big, but I almost like it it I felt like it smacked me in the face at the 2016 Olympics and and, you know, losing way too many of our family members in the Olympic world uh over the last 5 years.
Like I I I want to cry every time I think about it.
So, And by lose it, you mean to suicide? Committing suicide, yes.
So, for me to to be able to do this documentary with the athletes that we had who were so vulnerable.
vulnerable. I honestly I can't thank them enough for opening up and and you know, being them being their authentic self and and filling I guess sharing some stories about you know, what we experienced and what we go through but you know, as we stated earlier this is
something you know, there's a massive stigma around mental health and this is something that that you know, a journey that I've started on and and I'm breaking the wall down as fast as I can and and you know, the more that people stand up and talk about their stories and their struggles. We're going to
We're going to break it down piece by piece and and you know, doing this documentary.
I feel is an awesome first step and and you know, just kind of a raw look at at some of the things that go through our heads and and that we experience and we're not this this statue.
You know, we we are human being and it was something yeah, like I said I can't say enough.
I'm super proud of that it just shows just I mean I like I'm I'm I was a kid in a candy store working on it.
This is something that's it's you know, it's like my baby.
So you know, I've I've you know, I I guess really since I opened up in 2014 about my struggles with depression and and anxiety, you know, I I I you know, really kind of took it by the horns so to say and and you know, this is my mission.
Like I'm going to do everything I can one to learn as much as I can about mental health but also you know, try to help as many people as I can break this wall down.
The suicide number is continuing to climb and it frustrates the hell out of me.
I mean I I I I read a story last night going to bed of two brothers that that are on a show over in London and honestly I I I just I my heart hurts because I feel some of the pain that they go through and I mean I think the biggest thing I I I want people to know that there is help on the other side.
You know, I've I've been and I've seen a lot of really dark places throughout my life but you know, I I I also know that I'm not alone.
So, when I look at that word on my on my desk, like that I wrote down, like I am not alone.
But, that's that's part of my darkness.
And and, you know, I think just always always knowing that that that there is somebody out there.
That that's what we all have to realize.
No matter what we're going through, somebody is there to hold your hand, to give you a hug, to you know, what whatever it is that you need.
Because we we we are not alone in life.
And and honestly, we can't do anything in life by ourselves.
Like, it's really hard if you think about it.
You know, and and if if we can include other people that that love us and and want to be around us, then it make it makes life 10 times better.
That was one thing that I had to learn the hard way with compartmentalizing throughout my career is is I I couldn't do it by myself. It was impossible.
I couldn't handle the the stress, the of the emotions and the feelings, all that stuff that was building up inside of me while I'm trying to perform at the absolute best.
Like, it it's it's it's impossible. It's unhealthy.
So, uh you know, I think that's that's the biggest thing, you know, really being able to do it and put it together.
And you know, I was I was honestly frustrated with how long I'm I'm somebody that wants stuff done fast.
So, you know, I never realized how long the process I know I hear it, right?
So, I I never really realized how long the process of making a piece like that takes.
And and to be honest, I'm I'm extremely thankful that that it it it came out and we were able to launch it during COVID.
Because it's it's the single You know, that was the one thing that I was deathly afraid of when when everything started happening was the the impact on everyone's mental health that this was going to take.
And and we've seen suicide numbers increase.
So, you know, I I I can't stress enough how important it is to, you know, you have something going on inside of you that's not normal, say something to somebody, write it down, something. Don't hold on to it.
You You I think life is life is definitely too damn short and you know, as as as I said earlier, I want to slow down time as much as I can and and be able to enjoy everything that that that life has to offer. Totally.
And one way of slowing down time is sharing time with others and and it's and it strikes me that of course, on one level, I respect both of you tremendously as just icons of competition, as as champions of achievement.
But what impresses me even more than that is the model of male friendship and brotherhood mutual support that you guys have demonstrated.
have demonstrated. Uh certainly privately, but also publicly and I'm just so happy to have both of you on this call because that seems so foundational to your success as uh not athletes necessarily, although that could be part of it, but as as humans, as having that deep bond
and mutual support and like you said, Michael, even if you are out there and feel alone, which is very easy during COVID and it's easy all the time in modern industrialized cultures because we are very much uh compartmentalized physically and separated from a lot of interaction and cohabitation and so on. There are tools like Talkspace. There
There are tools like Talkspace.
There are professionals who are available and just reaching out to someone can release so much pressure Mhm. In the system. And there are options.
So, I feel like the weight of gold as a doc coming out now is is great timing during very bad times for for millions of people.
So, I couldn't agree more.
And Grant, I realized I did not come back and ask you one of the questions that I'd asked Michael, which was related to books or resources that you've found helpful.
My audience is is always interested in books, certainly any resources or tools, but are there any books that come to mind for you that were either particularly helpful with respect to challenging times or books overall that you've recommended or gifted the most to other people?
Oh, I think I gave this a lot to Michael, so that was that was one one gift. I was in Which was that?
Uh the subtle art of not giving a [ __ ] So Oh, yes. Yeah, Mark Manson. Yeah, yeah. So that that one.
I I put it I just reread that probably a couple of months ago.
That that book always just takes me back one or two steps and renews my perspective on situations because, you know, I'm I'm I'm a hyper-focused individual.
When I get onto goals and tasks and things that I want to deliver, like I sometimes get the blinkers on in such an intense way that I I can lose perspective on things around me.
So I'm really a lot more aware and conscious of that now and I and I make sure I've got things like that.
His follow-up book was great. I really enjoyed that.
I actually read that and bought it for a mutual friend of ours, Tim Matt Target over over for his birthday last year in December. So Yeah.
So I I I enjoy his reading.
I I read a lot of journals.
I even read a lot of Harvard Business Review articles.
Um there's one I like in particular and it's really funny, this will sound a little bit counterintuitive around mental health, but it's about mental toughness.
And there's, you know, they've got their sort of mini books that you can you can read all the journals that they've had around that particular subject matter and I love that because it resonates with me, you know, 100%.
So I find I actually need to not just read things that give me renewed perspective, but actually things that make me feel more like me.
And that's one of the things that the the psychologist that I've um dealt with cuz, you know, we always talk about purpose and meaning and and all this sort of stuff and and he had this really interesting thing that he said to me because, you know, people have this high expectation of you once you've achieved certain things in life and and you have a greater expectation of yourself more than anybody else.
And he just said to me, goes, "Just do more things that make you feel like you."
And that has always stuck with me because it's like, "Okay, what do I value?
What what what I truly value?" And it's funny.
I That upon the basis of that saying or that statement, I I really got back to my own core values.
And then I did things that sort of checked into to those values.
Um And and it's funny because I always had people tell me, "Oh, Grant, just just slow down.
Just, you know, en- enjoy it. Just relax.
Don't You know, don't try and do everything to to the top level every single time."
I hate I hate when people say that [ __ ] God, it pisses me off so much. I I I tried that. And you know what?
I realized that's not me.
Like, doing things mediocre is not me. I I can't stand that. And it was funny.
All the things that disconnected with my value set re- destabilized me.
And so I focus on reading things, reading journals, doing things that connect more with me.
And those things like mental tough toughness, reading about Navy SEALs, reading about different training strategies.
That sort of stuff I I really love.
And I find that an escape for my personality.
So that's that's quite interesting.
And and then I I I love commerce and love business.
So I I read a lot of different business books and and articles.
So they're kind of the things that that I just enjoy.
So yeah, it's it's always just reconnecting with purpose for me that actually slows my mind down, gives me perspective.
And then yeah, the books that I just referred to cer- have helped me round out that view even more so.
Do you have any favorite since you mentioned it?
I know this this might seem off topic, but it's not since this is about your lives and not just one one facet.
Any particular favorite business books and I'll just mention for folks also Harvard Business Review has a book which is HBR's 10 must reads on mental toughness and features Martin Seligman, Tony Schwartz, Warren Bennis and others and that's a that's $24 or $25.
You can find that online and I'll link to that in the show notes.
Are there any business books that's that are real standouts for you?
There's one I'm reading at the moment that I'm really enjoying which is Phil Knight, Shoe Dog.
I've got to read this book.
It's it's I've got to read it.
It's been recommended to me a hundred times.
Yeah, so so I'm I'm in the middle of that and I've got to say that's that's definitely one that springs to mind.
That's definitely definitely top of the list.
Other ones that stand out I mean probably that one for now.
The other ones that I enjoy reading I enjoy just general sort of leadership.
So I read a lot of stuff that relates to that in business and knowing and understanding what the fundamentals are.
I've probably got if I walked into my bedroom seven or eight books that I want to read that I haven't at the moment.
I always enjoy reading things around Warren Buffett.
I've read a lot of books that that relate to him just on his mindset and his approach towards things because the one thing that I've really found in in high performance, you don't actually have to read always on your specific subject matter.
Because and when it comes to business I always find I read articles mostly like strategy articles or you know, growth initiatives or you know, what was the change in Boeing when you know, Airbus when Airbus said okay, we're going to do the A380, but you know, what if if we get this wrong, it's actually going to send us bankrupt.
You know, what was the inflection point where business became great And I enjoyed Jim Collins like his books good to great are really interesting just to learn about You know, I I find any sort of success story is the same.
story is the same. It is just a daily grind of mundane things that you just have to keep getting right and improve by point one of a percent and then do it again the next day then do it again the next day then eventually
you know, momentum and the flywheel as it's referred to in that book is kind of click into place and and and then all of a sudden many years later you've got this outstanding result that people think is overnight success that took you 15 years to get there. So
So that's the way I find most things work.
And so I love reading around the principles of you know, high performance and success in any single field whether it's a Navy SEAL whether it's business whether it's sport whether it's you know, in in music, you know, the school of Juilliard like what whatever it might be those principles are the same and I'm always trying to to identify those cuz I got to be honest I love it.
Like I'm passionate about it.
I'm passionate about learning about it talking about it reading about it.
So yeah, they're they're probably always the the things that I try and tap into and and again it comes back to that that saying that I said before just do things that make you feel more like you.
That's that's not everyone's cup of tea.
Winning Olympic gold medals is not everybody's cup of tea because sacrifice you have to make for that for most people is probably not often worth it.
But for the two guys you've got on this call we'll do anything to to get those things and sort of have the same approach to to everything else that I try and achieve or want to achieve.
I love that expression doing more things that make you feel like you.
I've never heard anything or never heard the message worded quite that way but it's very succinct and very deep if you if you spend some time on it.
Thank you for sharing that.
Michael are there any other books or resources that that you would like to mention just to give you another dip at the well?
I was sitting here looking at my like the little bookshelf that we have behind the we have a scatter in here but I was sitting here looking at these books and I there's there's two of them that popped into my head that one I've gone back to.
So for trying to slow things down I I tried to mix in more of a daily reading.
So Mark Nepo has a good one the book of awakening and then the daily stoic.
I mean I feel like some of those things you know I like you know you can really just like almost just take a step back right?
Take a deep breath, let it you know read a quote, read you know a single page, whatever it is, let it marinate and and you know just for me it's just something that's so easy to do but something that's so awesome to do to start your day.
You know I just feel like it it just gives you some kind of purpose of what you're doing and and you know when when life is too fast again it gives you that second to take that step back. Yeah.
Daily stoic and ego is the enemy.
You got a whole lot of Ryan Holiday on your bookshelf.
It's yeah so he honestly it's it's it's funny cuz it's so I I I just got the daily stoic from my coach or my my old coach sorry Bob Bowman and I've gotten a few of the other books as I was saying earlier from you know Seth Hacky right? Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.
Yeah so he he's he's like he's one of like my favorite human beings on this planet to have a communication or a conversation with excuse me but some of the books that he's given me really have like like he he he I feel like he has a really good understanding about me as a person and how I work and
and he's a very very smart human being so I feel like some of the things that he's given me to read are are again back to my point just simple ways for me to understand something that I might be too hard on myself with or you know I might be too hyper focused on one thing right? So you know almost giving me that bigger
So you know almost giving me that bigger picture.
You know trying to be that lake instead of being that glass of water.
So yeah I I like a a of a lot of the books that I have that I'll rifle through time and time again.
I think have been super helpful just to Yeah, I mean I I I think more more than anything just give me a chance.
Like I I I feel, you know, for me like a a lot of my life was focused on swimming and and that really was it.
Like I you know, I hacky hacky knows being an Olympian your whole life is focused on one thing.
Nothing else matters in life but that.
I'm honestly really learning how to live on dry land so to say.
You know, I I kind of made the joke throughout the last last few years I feel like I've taken more strokes in the swimming pool than I've taken steps on land.
So it's it's it's it makes it challenging when you have a freight train trying to come down the middle of the tree the the street with no tracks on it.
So it's it's been difficult at times slowing me down but but I feel like some of those simple, you know, kind of different approaches to looking at things for me just have benefited so much just because I I I can't expect to fill up everybody's cups if my cup isn't filled up, right?
Like I have, you know, I have three boys and and an amazing wife and and a household here that I'm I'm in charge of my roles, right?
So if if I'm not taking care of myself and you know, filling my glass up by taking the time that I need for me, I have no shot in being able to be a good husband, a good friend, a good dad.
So you know, I I I just want I want to have a chance and and I feel like that's what I did in my career, my preparation.
It was the process like I it was the whole process of it all that that I learned but you know, the preparation was was, you know, so key.
So it's it's Yeah, just trying to slow things down. I don't know.
I don't know if any of that makes sense but yeah, it's it's something that Yeah, it's been it's been enjoyable but but as you can imagine something that's been extremely challenging at times.
You know, as you hear Grant and I talk about, we want to go fast and we we want to get to point A to point B as fast as we can, the fastest way, but also the most effective way. So, how can we do it? What can we do? You know what I mean?
So, it's like We can we can bubble. My mind's gone. Yeah. It's It's totally.
Sometimes you want to be the lake, and other times you want to take a jet ski at 100 miles an hour across the lake, and uh some days it's hard to decide which one you want to do. Right. Right. Oh, man.
Well, this this has been such a fun conversation for me.
And I I just have uh one more question, and it's it's sometimes a difficult question.
So, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but we'll I'll give it a shot.
And that is Actually, before I get there, I have to say I've also found Stoicism very, very helpful, and it's it's such a small world because I actually published the audiobook versions of both Ego Is the Enemy and The Daily Stoic, believe it or not.
I've I've listened I've listened to your voice a lot. I've I've heard a lot.
I think you you've done piece You've done some stuff with uh Trevor Moawad as well. I believe. Uh I I I may have.
Yeah, it's it's uh know if I'm right or wrong.
I might be wrong, so It's just such a such a such a small world.
So, so let me ask a question that sometimes doesn't work cuz it is it is sometimes a hard question.
I'll ask it of of both of you, and the question is this.
If you could put anything on a billboard, this is metaphorically speaking, right?
It could be an image, a quote, a question, a word, anything non-commercial on a billboard to get something in front of billions of people, what would it be?
And uh if if either of you want to take a stab at it, feel free to jump.
I'll give you off you want, Hackie. Yeah, yeah. want to go, go ahead.
Go right ahead, but um you go first, bud.
Uh, I mean, I I I would just say it's okay to not be okay.
You know, I think that's something that that for me, um, you know, even in my darkest, scariest moments, like, that's that's the one thing that Nicole always says to me.
Um, you know, and she'll throw her arms around me or ask if she can give me a hug sometimes.
You know, if I am just like if I really want to be alone, like that's the one thing, like she'll she'll ask me cuz sometimes I just need that moment by myself.
She'll ask to give me a hug.
My wife will ask me to give me a hug.
So, you know, like it's it's she like we've just been able to, I mean, again, I can't say it enough, grow so much.
So, you know, I I I would say again to everybody out there, like it's okay to not be okay and and you're not alone.
Like those those two things I think can just go together.
Just, I mean, with everything we've talked about on this call.
Uh, it's just I mean, it's it's in in in a difficult time, it's yeah, it's something to just simplify it.
Take a step back, deep breath, and relax. Those are great. Those are great, Grant. Any thoughts?
Yeah, the first thing that that popped into my head, and I often think that's always the right and best answer, was if you want to put something on a billboard, um, I just be you. Be you. Be you.
It's two words, very simple, because the more you do the things that, uh, you know, make you feel like yourself or it brings out your personality, brings out who you are, makes you feel good about yourself, and you don't have to be something that's false or superficial or create an image for anybody else or anything else.
And and I think once you get back to that simplification and to to Michael's point, I think, um, you know, often you feel best about yourself.
Often you find the things that you enjoy doing more often.
Often enough, you're living a life that just makes you feel good about yourself.
And, um, and and, you know, connect better with the people around you.
So, I think, um, just be you and feel comfort comfortable in that. Excellent. Yeah. That feels so good, man.
Like I honestly, that's like I I I can just hearing you say that through through the last, you know, hour that we that you've mentioned it to me like it's brought up so many things that that would help me just like simplify life and it just totally makes sense.
You know, like there are times like I I I I I I I I I I I I I can say like I I mean I I I I play golf with or I've had the chance to play golf with a lot of professional golfers and and, you know, I recently got to play with you know, I got to know Jon Rahm a little bit.
So, the first time playing with him I'm like [ __ ] like I want to try to play as good as I can like I want to be on my, you know, A game yada yada yada and I'm like, well, that's not me because I don't have the time and the preparation to perform how I expect to perform.
So, I I can't expect to be somebody else. I have to be me.
That's something that that, you know, I I struggled a lot with and at times still do, you know, with that like where where I feel like sometimes I am just a swimmer and because I feel like that's what the story has been, right?
You know, every single headline is about swimming swimming swimming and and, you know, finally now like that like that's why I've really I'm I'm so happy with everything we're doing with mental health, but you know, like that's that's one thing that I really just saw myself as and and not a human being.
So, you know, if I I want to say thank you because I like that that quote right there just be you.
Um, you know, I think can simplify a thousand things for me.
I I don't know how I've never heard you even say that, but thanks.
I appreciate you bringing that up today.
I had a brain fart like you before and it just popped into my head. I just went with it.
Well, this is this has been really fun to have both of you on and for everybody listening we'll we'll link to everything in the show notes as usual at tim.
blog/podcast so you won't miss anything.
The documentary that was mentioned is The Weight of Gold.
That is an HBO documentary.
Grant, people can find you on Instagram @grant__hackett h a c k e t t two underscores.
And then my people can find you on Twitter at Michael Phelps, Facebook Michael Phelps, Instagram at m_phelps00.
Is there anything else that you gentlemen would would like to mention?
Anything else that you'd like to add as a closing comment or or anything at all?
Um I I got to say I I I just I'm so proud of Michael as as a friend, you know, he knows that I love him like a brother and you know, but um people have seen him as a product, right?
Because the guy's so successful and so amazing and he and achieved things that no one else ever has in the history of sport.
And um but to hear how open and honest and transparent and forthright he is around mental health, cuz I know he wants to help other people, to to me is just an outstanding characteristic and um you can never underestimate the strength, but Michael always has that strength um to to do that sort of stuff.
So, yeah, man, that was it was awesome to hear you today.
It was it was emotional for me sitting on the other side cuz I've been there.
I've been right there with you sitting in the closet talking.
Launching my phone, right?
But no, I think um yeah, no, that's that's just been awesome and I I've really enjoyed that today and um look, I'm sure that that will help a lot of people and and I know that's exactly what you like to do. Uh thanks honestly. I likewise, bro.
I mean, we've both been through our our fair share of ups and downs publicly and privately and and um you know, as you know, my my circle is super tight and and I love you like a brother and and honestly this it's it's awesome to see uh the journey that you've been on and and honestly just welcoming in a new baby.
Geez, dude, it's it's so cool, so special, awesome to watch. I miss you like hell.
As As As selfish as it is, I wish you lived next door. We need our compound. I know.
We'll still do We'll still do that.
Um but Tim, honestly, this is It's been great, you know, for for me, you know, even though with with the relationship and and as close as I am with Hacky, I've been able to learn even more about him today and and you know, I'm excited that we somebody finally put this together, the two of us to to be able to just chat for for 2 hours.
Um honestly, it was a treat.
Um and and you know, we've listened to a lot of you over the years.
I look forward to listening to a lot more.
Um if it's okay, I'd love to grab your email from team and and stay in touch.
And honestly, if you have any books or anything, I I I truly Yeah, it's something that that As I said, I I think I think I've read more books in the last 5 years or listened to more books in the last 5 years than I have in the previous 30.
Uh Um you know, so I think I It's It's It's funny how life works and and how open I am or how much more open I am now and and you know, that wall is down a little bit more.
Um so yeah, anything that you know, I'm always uh eager to learn and and um Yeah, it's it's just been a fun process.
So I I I can't thank you enough for for having us on today.
This was This was a a true treat.
Yeah, total blast for me.
A an experiment, certainly, especially scattered across the world as we are. And it worked out.
I'm so happy that we were able to come together.
And thanks for the kind words, also.
Uh I you know, the book The book that I would recommend more than any others not one of mine.
It's actually a book called Awareness by Anthony De Mello. It's a short book. D E M E L L O. Anthony De Mello.
And I will definitely I'll share my email and cell with both of you guys and you can feel free to reach out anytime certainly and hopefully we'll we'll meet in person sometime.
And it has been such a treat.
So so thank you both very much and I wish you both a wonderful weekend. You too.
Thank you so much for having us Tim.
Hey guys, this is Tim again just a few more things before you take off.
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