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Do you have Do you have an instrument in your life, Nick?
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Um Do you have like would you save like in a in a in a house fire like do you go Is there a guitar Is there something like you know Yeah. [clears throat] >> one. >> Yeah.
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>> Uh it's a Squier Telecaster.
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It was my brother's electric guitar.
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He bought it at like whatever the local shop was in like '98.
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That was his uh first like electric guitar.
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And when I was in middle school, he kind of got into like partying and was like music is you know age out of playing guitar and get into like drugs and booze and sex and >> Yeah.
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>> He gave me that guitar.
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Or he just left it around, right?
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And so then I I imprinted on it.
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I mean I remember like printing out You remember the like um label maker?
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We were like label making like quotes from like our favorite movie like Kung Pow!
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Enter the Fist or like Austin Powers and like putting label makers of those quotes.
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I had Kung Pow had a I rock and roll all day, sweet Suzy on a label make on the guitar.
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Um and then eventually in high school he was like, "Hey, we should put some better pickups in this. It sounds like shit."
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And so then he we took the one of the single coils out and put like a um like a humbucker in it.
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And then in college I played bass in my college band so I I kind of ignored it.
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But then when I moved to Alaska and started making Medium Build I started playing this shitty red Telecaster and I scraped all the stickers off.
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And it sounds like garbage, but it's on all of my original Medium Build recordings.
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I played it live for years. The action is not great.
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It sounds bad even with the like pickups added.
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Like you could take it to a the shop and like completely detail it and it would still sound like >> How does it feel in the hand? >> Terrible.
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>> [laughter] >> But in the heart.
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>> You just didn't get the You just didn't get that memo, did you? I was sizing that up. Here we Here we go. Here comes the punch.
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But how does it feel in the hand?
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You're like, yeah, no >> No. No.
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It's like That's the thing.
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It's like when I play it, I feel like me. >> There you go.
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>> When I have it, it it feels like it brings out like I remember getting better at guitar on like the hours I've logged with it.
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No one would choose to record it.
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I've I I think I brought it on tour last year just to be like because it was the first time we ever had a guitar tech and I could.
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I was like, yeah, have that ready.
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And then like one night I was like, give me that.
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And I like tried to play it at one point and I was like, this sounds terrible.
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Give me back my regular guitar. >> You switched it out.
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>> Yeah, but just having it near me felt It's like a little a token. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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How when you when you think about the journey being on as an artist, as a creative person, >> [sighs] >> how important were those early days when it was you and your brother and and older brother?
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And he was sharing records with you and you were defining your taste and you know, how how much of a a chapter in your life does that does that time in your life play in terms of what we hear today?
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>> Well, it's funny cuz I don't think that the inputs show up.
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Like you know, I I think it's so funny like con- YouTube comment sections are riddled with guys being like, "Oh, this you must love X." Like, "Oh, you're sad.
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You must be a huge Bright Eyes fan." or like, "Nice guitar.
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Like what do you blah blah blah, you know?"
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And then I when I was in ninth grade, my brother gave me Pet Sounds and System of a Down.
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>> [clears throat] >> Yes.
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That's what we got in on.
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We were listening to I mean, Mars Volta and the Beatles.
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So I'm like, whoa, harmony and chords and singing is beautiful.
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They also like rock and metal and and counting time signatures and and all like I mean >> A total disregard really for anything conventional in the form of arrangement whatsoever.
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That's what System as an example.
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Like I remember when one of our two boys got went through a very very big System phase at around 11. >> Mhm. >> Maybe.
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His imagination was really peaking into music. >> Yeah.
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>> And he was doing the same thing just sitting in the back listening to System of a Down and I was like, "Fuck, they are just subverting the out of you in the best possible way.
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They're teaching about the world.
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They're teaching you about breaking the rules."
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My middle schooler got into System of a Down I'd be like "Great." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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>> know what I did right or wrong, but go ahead. >> Yeah.
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No, it's a It's a beautiful thing.
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And and it just teaches you that um it's yours to break. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right.
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>> My brother liked ugly stuff. Like he's a proggy guy. >> Mhm.
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>> You know, now he's in his 40s and he's seen Fish like 50 times. >> He's a Fish guy. >> Yeah. >> Love that. >> Yeah. >> For him. >> For yeah. Love that for him. Exactly.
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He's only made me go to like two of them.
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Uh but they were like you know, that's like 15 hours of your life.
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>> What is the like can we talk about the jam band thing?
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>> I I am you very qualified to talk about some jam band >> Can we talk about the jam band thing just for a second before we get back to this beautiful album and you and Zero went on the subject of Lodge.
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>> [groaning] >> I just I can't I can't I just can't. And I tried.
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When when I realized I could listen to anything on a streaming service and I was like, "Today I'm just going to listen to the Grateful Dead."
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And at the end of it I was like, "I never want to hear that again."
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>> And some jam folk will say that's not jam, right? >> They will.
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>> There's a really there's a gospel to it.
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I think what happened was in the '80s recording got so easy, right? Digital technology. You could record long.
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You could have really You could really capture a bunch of stuff. >> Yeah.
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>> So, the Dead come out of this tradition of like letting the songs ramble.
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And then in the '80s and '90s, you have like drugs get cheaper, recording gets cheaper.
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>> CDs, more time, more this, manufactured distribution.
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>> people are like, "What if we just did whatever?" >> Yeah. >> Right?
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And then it's also like there's the jazz fusion of it.
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So, there's people coming from out of like Jaco and like Weather Report and like white people who have listened to a bunch of jazz, but then they're like, "How do I keep it white?"
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>> [laughter] >> You know?
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And and then and then you have like where I grew up in in it outside of Atlanta, it was like frat bro jam.
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So, it was like Perpetual Groove and String Cheese Incident and moe. and Government Mule.
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And it was the You would go to this theater and you would smoke spliff.
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And and then just dudes would be ripping like 10-minute Allman Brothers type solos. >> Yeah, yeah.
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>> So, it it's like Southern rock meets jam.
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And then in the Northeast, you have Phish coming out of the Vermont thing and they're like, "We are proggy.
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We love We love Peter Gabriel, but we also love the Dead and we also love Steely Dan and we also love doing drugs and jamming for 4 hours."
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And so, there's And then you have, you know, San Francisco where the Dead comes out of and there's like actual like feeling in it.
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And so, there's like heady and then there's feeling and then there's like party, man.
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That's where I grew up was in like, "Hey, bro. Here's a beer. Here's a cigarette. Here's your joint.
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And we going to jam all night."
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[laughter] And I I don't know what it did for me, but it felt more fun than Dave Matthews.
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>> [laughter] >> Because now in my high school, Dave Matthews was God.
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Like all the all the white bros with their little shorts and their little Chacos and their red cups and their backward visors and It was like Dave or John Mayer.
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And I was like, well, at least I'm going to go if I can be in like the Mars Volta like proggy world, then at least the jam kids are weird.
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>> Mars Volta are a jam band.
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I mean I may I may never recover from that statement for certain people, [laughter] but technically they are a jam band. >> It has that feeling.
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When you're changing times it's like the math prog thing.
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I I I never got into like King Crimson like I like or Yes.
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Like I I tried to >> Yeah.
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>> But then you're like but then there's like metal prog like Killswitch Engage. >> Yeah, yeah.
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>> And I mean >> Oh, dear. >> August Burns Red. Like >> I mean Tool. I mean Tool. >> Tool.
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Tool was the huge Exactly.
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Well, I came up with Incubus. >> Yeah.
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>> And then you're like, well, Incubus is sounds like pedestrian compared to Tool and then as you get into further proggy metal Anyway, I was in orchestra.
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I played the bass in orchestra.
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So, you're getting into people who are like getting high on the fact that they know what a B natural is and then how they count time signatures and then they start getting all >> But Incubus were that.
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But the problem with not a problem, the good thing about Incubus, but also the challenge they had if they ever wanted to go full jam was that was Boyd.
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It's like you can't be just looks impeccable.
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It's like you can't like be a you're a jam band when you got Brandon Boyd peak era like Bob Uh, Bob level Brandon Boyd.
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>> Yeah, the little top >> tucked curtain Bob with the big earrings doing that thing where he's like, "I dig my toes into the sand."
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It's like, dude, that's about as hippy as it gets, but bro, it's Brandon Boyd.
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>> Yeah, well, then on that well, on those first couple records when they would go into those big jammy or trippy moments he'd JUST BE LIKE >> [screaming] >> WELL, IT'S LIKE IT'S SO 70S proggy >> but but Eisen thing is the jazz guy.
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He's the one who's got >> It's like, Mike, man. >> Mike's unreal.
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>> He taught me chords in a way where I remember watching live at Red Rocks and just being like I know, I know, I know, I know.
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Voicings of chords that are like that, you know?
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>> I Well, people like me can't do that.
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>> What, with kiwi hands?
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>> Look at these little hands.
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Look at these little hands, right?
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Look at these like, yeah.
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Look at these little things.
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Like, I play the seven down the bottom, that's all I play, right?
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Sometimes a little half or a minor, that's about it.
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>> Well, my my brother was a fascinated with all that cool guy stuff, but he couldn't play it.
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He was really not a technical player.
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He had a basic understanding of bass and guitar, and so he sort of put it in my hand and was like, "Do this."
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>> you his Were you his pet project in a way? >> Oh my god. Yeah.
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Like that I was That's He would tell you exactly that.
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Like, he I was his first thing.
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Cuz my parents sort of checked out, and he was old enough where they could leave me with him.
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And by checked out, I mean, they were working and grieving their own life, not going how they thought.
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So, like, they were like, "Here you go."
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And so, he we just had so much uninterrupted time. >> Time.
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>> And what's the age difference? >> Six and a half years.
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>> Yeah, long enough for you to love and respect his opinion and for him to be able to treat you like the kid you are. Yeah.
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Cuz the thing is, if it's closer than that, it gets tough because they sort of treat you like they like you're the same even though you're not.
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A two-year difference is a little bit different at a certain point in your life.
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Difference between 14 and 12 is gigantic, right?
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But often 14-year-old is like, "Just come ALONG FOR THE RIDE, YOU KNOW?" >> YEAH.
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>> But the six-year difference is very different.
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That's like, "You know what?
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I see you as being impressionable and someone who's going to absorb information.
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Let me give you Mars Volta." >> He parented me. >> Yeah.
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>> Like, he he was like, "Do this. Don't do this.
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Hey, when you start dating, don't do this. >> Yeah, yeah.
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>> Hey, like, this is what's cool.
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This is what my friends are laughing at.
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You know, and I also just watched I completely watched his entire life.
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Even when he didn't know.
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Like, I was sitting in behind him and like, "How do you do that?" >> It's so interesting.
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You really run the gamut of emotions in your songwriting and sometimes your saddest sounding songs sometimes have this beautiful uplifting sentiment at the end and sometimes you have these songs that make you want to dance into the early hours of the night, but it can be really really wide open and self-aware I'm a being an example of that.
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Yes, you know, you push through to the other side of it, but boy, you're tearing yourself apart to do it.
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So, this whole idea of like finding humor in sadness and finding sadness in the in the in the joy and all this paradox of life.
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Was that in you as a kid?
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Was that who you think you are?
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What's the nature nurture ratio for you, do you think? >> I came out joyful.
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Like I was the I was not a hard baby.
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I think there's my chemical wiring is fairly up.
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Um Mom and dad went through really like my mom lost her dad right after I was born and then my dad lost his business and filed for bankruptcy. So, >> It's a lot.
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>> They were just kind of wrecked.
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And so I grew up in this space where and my my brother kind of had to like body a lot of that grief and a lot of the things changing.
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My parents went from not having money to having money and then not having money and it was this really violent upheaval.
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I never I didn't live through it.
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I mean, I was a child, so I don't or like a toddler.
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He got to really body it.
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So, I think I was walking It's almost like I was kind of like that idiot.
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I was like a Bill Murray character.
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I was just like, "What's wrong here?"
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Like I'm the only person that can't smell the in the room my whole life.
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>> Well, you're probably also at that point and I don't want to assume anything, but I I've been through a similar situation in my life.
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You become this beacon of joy in an otherwise pretty shitty situation. >> Yeah.
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And they all I mean, you know, not to >> It's a lot for a kid to wear.
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>> Yeah, but again, you don't really know.
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But that you're that they are that you're their little totem of of you're the a thing that they're like, "That's you know, they're looking to me for sunshine.
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>> Yeah, but guess what you do. You assume the role. >> Oh, baby, don't I?
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And I've been performing Someone was like, have you ever acted?
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I was like every day since I was aware.
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>> [laughter] >> Since I was 4 years old.
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>> is aren't you right now?
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Aren't we all all the time? >> [laughter] >> Right?
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Like camera no camera, this is what it is. >> Yeah.
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And it's the same way my mom literally called me this morning being like, yo, your dad and I are trying to blah blah blah find get a Should we get a hotel at this place? I'm like, I got it.
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I'm just going to I don't you I don't even trust you to do the research, but then I'm like, why?
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Why do I immediately take her problems and put them on as mine?
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>> Can I tell you why I did it?
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Cuz it's how I defined being loved. >> Yeah.
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And it was it was the earliest delivery of the goods.
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>> Yeah, that was my job.
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>> Make mom and dad laugh. >> That's your job.
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money in the dopamine bank. >> 100%. It's selfish actually.
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And and but it was years later I realized, you know, that it's actually it's a pathway to self-fulfillment.
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[snorts] The more you do for other people, you have to be really careful about your intentions when you realize that because why am I doing Am I doing it for me? Am I doing it for them?
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Am I really doing it for them?
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>> Performative good guy >> Holy man. Cuz you know what?
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Cuz then I feel good about myself.
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>> Yeah, and everyone here knows I'm such a good guy.
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I'm such a good guy and I check on people and you do these habits and then you can I mean, it's like I like jogging, right?
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But sometimes I'm jogging for the wrong reason. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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>> It's like, are you jogging for can to connect or are you jogging cuz you don't want to be at home or because you have an eating disorder?
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It's like >> Short shorts or long shorts with the jog? I'm just interested. >> Short shorts.
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But you see me on the cover there?
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I just got done with a little a little jog. >> that.
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See with the headband, the whole thing, the whole scenario. >> Sometimes. >> Yeah. >> The whole scenario.
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>> You were still wrestling when I met you.
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Trying to figure out how much of this you liked, didn't like.
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I wasn't 100% sure where we were going to get. be truth being truthful.
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I wasn't 100% sure we'd get 20 medium build albums.
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Now, I'm fairly confident we're going to get 20 medium build albums.
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So, what changed between the last one and this one?
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>> Um when we met, I got all the dreams, right?
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I was I toiled in obscurity for a decade doing my little punk and DIY thing and then, you know, I I caught the car.
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I got lucky, you know, I I met my manager and we link and build. Link and build, bro. We connected. We dot connected. We networked. I got I got lucky.
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I I mean, I put in a lot of work, but I got really lucky. And that's how we met.
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And I was riding that wave of like I may never get this again.
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And it was I was so afraid.
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Every I was so afraid that it was going to >> Of what?
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>> I'm going to get found out that I'm phony. I'm not good.
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I'm going to go to the Apple Music party.
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I'm going to meet Remi and Dive and Ash and Phineas and and everyone's going to be like, "Oh, that guy's a poor idiot and he's a clown and he's dumb and he doesn't know how to record vocals and and he's and he's bad and he can't and he can't sell any tickets and I just whatever."
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I was just like Or I'm really great, but I know how lucky I am and I'm going to lose it.
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And then I'm going to have to go back to bartending and I'm going to go back to Anchorage with my little the little ant meme with the little the hobo stick, you know, the little bandana full of all my stuff and I'm going to wander back into Anchorage.
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I was going to be like, "Ha ha, we knew you'd be back, you little bitch." And so so much fear.
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And the way I dealt with fear is by excessively exercising or excessively drinking.
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So, that's what when I met you, I was like regularly getting so up on stage Um and in my daily life.
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And so, what has changed is I started ruining shows, and I quit.
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I quit drinking, I stopped touring, I took like an like almost a 10-month break.
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I >> you tell yourself, or did someone have a word? >> Oh, god.
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Well, it happened in so many phases, you know?
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It was like It was the initial like, you know, your your your team being like, "Hey, bro, like maybe not that entire pour before the show."
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And then there's like the you know, long rant on stage that goes a little longer than it should have.
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And like there's the the homie sending the DM like, "Yo, bro, you good?"
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And then there's the actual panic attack on stage, which happened in Birmingham, UK, of all places.
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And uh >> Woah, woah, I didn't know that. >> Oh, ruined a show.
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Luckily, I mean, not luckily, but uh no one was there.
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Like, you know, no one Nobody from your team pulls up to the Birmingham show.
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Like, so there was no management, there was no label there.
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We barely sold any tickets to it.
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That was also part of the freak out, but I I ruined a show.
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Like, I tanked it, had a full-blown like woke up like kind of like came to in the middle of like a blackout like panic like rant like on some like on some like I'm trapped in this.
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Like, I really felt when you don't think you belong at the party, you It's like if I think you hate me, I'm not going to be like, "You hate me."
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I'm going to be like, "I hate me."
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It's like it's that that like 8 Mile Like, I'm going to make fun of me before you can make fun of me, right?
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I've lived my entire life like that.
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In this like I don't belong, but I know you're going to reject me, so you.
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>> Yeah, let me do it first.
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>> And it's so it's like it's kind of I inherited it from my dad.
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He grew up super poor, and so his whole life has been him trying to prove that he's not an idiot, right?
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I went to college, I studied liter- like literature, like I listened to Billy Joel, like I'm not some redneck.
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Like, his entire ethos is like, I can get money. I can I'm productive.
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Like I take care of my wife and my family.
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Like I'm I'm allowed to be here.
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But because of all of his intensity around that, I sponged like maybe I'm not allowed to be here.
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So I'm going to be so funny, so nice, so easy, so invisible, so chameleon. I'm whatever you want.
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I'm I'm going to do research on you.
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I'm going to I'm going to love on you.
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I'm going to charm the pants off everyone I'm with so that I I'm allowed to be here.
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So once I got the record deal and the first tour and it started like feeling normal, like there's the initial like holy I'm so lucky and I'm so grateful and there's the aw shucks like thank you so much. Thank you so much.
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I can't believe you guys are like my god.
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And then I kind of got used to the love.
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And so then we show up in Birmingham, no one's there and I'm like, why isn't this show sold out? I'm great. >> Yeah.
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Zane Lowe compared me to Bob Dylan. >> Yeah.
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>> Like why the isn't this show sold out?
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I'm going to drink an entire bottle of Fernet about it.
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And I'm going to put on a pink wig and like not sing very well.
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I'm going to just the show up.
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I'm going to like put on wings and pretend I'm Elton John.
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Oh wait, I'm not Elton John.
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I'm a blackout American on stage and I don't remember my lyrics and then I like turn on the crowd, get mad at them, be like, why the are you And then yeah, then someone pulls you aside and is like, hey, how do we >> the '90s, bro. >> No, right. We got we got receipts.
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These people have phones, bro.
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And this is >> The thing is in the '90s when that when that behavior was happening in the '90s and everyone was doing that and people were going out on stage and they were kind of self-sabotaging for entertainment value but doing it in colorful costumes and having fun and like, you know, you. NO, YOU.
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And it was it was very punk and it felt very alive and electrifying and everyone bought tickets for that and only later did we realize that it was actually coming from the same place that you were doing it from.
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That it was coming from a fear of impostor syndrome and this sense of not being at the party that they really signed up for.
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And those guys are lonely. And you know what?
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Those guys end up getting becoming really toxic or abusive. Right?
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You think about those guys that came up in that If you don't heal that, it just cancer It just grows and manifests into this nasty nasty >> go home and we go, "That was rad. Did you see that?
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Dude, he was in like a pink wig, and he like kind of lost his It's so punk. I loved it."
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And you have to go to work the next day, and the worst thing that can happen from that as well is the word spreads, and all of a sudden everybody wants pink wig guy.
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And then you're in this like, "Oh I didn't sign up for that."
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So, you get back from Birmingham, you get back from this this place, and what was the moment of clarity?
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And did you just And did you automatically realize that you wanted to keep making music, or did you question that, too?
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>> Oh, I I was ready to end the entire thing.
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I was like, "I either have to quit doing music, like I I I put I made a list.
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It's like, living Okay, what what hurts?
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Living, making music, or like being Nick?" All of it was hurting.
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It's like, "Okay, so maybe Okay, it's not really in the cards to kill myself.
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Like I I mean, you know, like I shouldn't.
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I know that my mom would be really bummed, and that's probably like not the ethical move.
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So, then I have to look at the other things, like being Nick, being Medium Build.
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It's like, "Okay, which part sucks?"
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And I was like, "Well, being Medium Build kind of sucks right now, but also like Nick's not really helping."
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Well, what's wrong with Nick?
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Well, he's lonely, obsessed with uh getting, you know, drunk and doing drugs and having sex with a stranger.
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Like he's he's he's like literally trying to plug into anything but being himself okay.
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So, and touring was starting to like really wear on me, having fans.
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Like even my like >> Well, cuz nothing's going to get you further away from Nick than being away from Nick. Right.
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Like being in a different town every night where everyone is just like, "Nick's here."
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And you're like, "Yeah, sure. Nick's here for now." >> Right.
23:11
But it's also like, "Who is that?" "Who's this?"
23:13
You You like You want Medium.
23:15
Like I don't even know who that guy is.
23:17
Like is he short shorts or is he pink wig? I don't I don't know.
23:21
And so I wrote a note, was like, "I need to step away from touring.
23:27
I need help getting sober.
23:30
I need to change my entire approach to everything."
23:32
And it was really I don't know.
23:35
It did It's not It's not risky to send that note, but I do remember being like, "I'm going to get in trouble.
23:40
I'm going to get in trouble like saying I need a break.
23:42
Like I'm going to decline tours, which is going to I'm going to up people's money.
23:49
I'm going to up all this shit."
23:49
But I've seen I've seen people ahead of me burn out, cancel the tour halfway through, and that's more dramatic.
23:56
And I knew that it was not going to go well.
24:00
We've all seen the VH1 Behind the Music, you know, we've seen every rock you doc.
24:05
And so I was like, "I'm off. I'm done." And so I hit the button.
24:10
And indeed it was not It obviously there's like the initial pink cloud of like sobriety.
24:14
And I got on bipolar meds and I quit touring.
24:16
We made the album like 3 months into it. >> Interesting.
24:20
>> But then we had to go back out and finish our contractual obligated tours.
24:25
>> Cuz you're a grown-up. >> Yeah. And so >> the job. >> Right.
24:27
So I had 3 months of like sitting at home getting dry.
24:29
And then we had another 3 months of tour.
24:31
And in that next 3 months of tour, I fell off again.
24:36
Like because I didn't know how to do that job sober.
24:38
I didn't know how to Someone says it's the routine of It's like It's your celebration.
24:44
Like it Whatever it is, like booze was how I came down from being Medium Build or how I celebrated, how I treated myself to good job, you did a tour.
24:55
And so it fell off again.
24:55
And I started back I was like I had all this clarity last summer, all this health, all this connection to self.
25:02
I was like doing my amends.
25:04
I was going to people being like, "I'm so sorry for up your life.
25:07
Like I'm trying to get better."
25:09
And then there I was like 6 months in being like, "Ah, it. Let's do it again."
25:12
And I had And then it ended and then the past 9 months we have not played a show.
25:19
I've been at home resting, recovering, writing, reading, learning, going to meetings, like reconnecting with friends, like really trying to do life.
25:30
So all that That's the longest way to tell you like the guy that's sitting in front of you right now is here because I genuinely want to be and I'm really not afraid.
25:40
I'm not afraid of it going away.
25:40
I think this album slaps, but I also know that I'm going to make like five more >> 20 albums. >> 20. >> 20 plus. >> 20 plus.
25:48
But also it's like, dude, if I want to move to France to become an organic farmer with my brother, I don't have fear of that.
25:54
Like I don't I can get bullied Like let's say I I decide to call it.
26:01
I'm not afraid of getting bullied by some fans.
26:03
They'd be like, "Why don't you do music anymore? You used to be my guy." Like, "Whatever. Bring it."
26:08
Like I want [snorts] to I want to live long. >> There you go.
26:12
>> I'm trying to outlive you know, like I'm trying to I I don't I used to want to leave.
26:18
>> Well, there's a song in that you performed earlier today, which will be available by the time this goes up online for people to watch, which is beautiful.
26:26
If you approve it and you share it cuz it was beautiful.
26:27
Quote, "Thank you, Kurt."
26:29
Uh which finishes the record.
26:32
Um I'm obsessed with tracking trackless thing in the I'm just obsessed with the narrative of bodies of work, you know?
26:37
There's some just a collection of songs.
26:38
Some people just do that and don't think about that, but I I I definitely do and a lot a lot of my friends really do.
26:43
Um The last line that you say before you go back to the gratitude statement is I don't need anything. I love myself. I am home. I don't need anything.
26:54
That's the end of the cycle that's made this record possible. The song is amazing.
26:58
It's a It's a tribute to someone who helped you reach to or something or somewhere.
27:01
You tell us what you want to tell us.
27:03
They helped you get to a place where self-love was a reality.
27:06
The line, the tree that's grown out of my chest is holding me.
27:10
I kiss my shoulder like the blind he stone. I love myself. Great writing. >> Thanks.
27:19
Yeah, that was um That was someone who loved me through, you know, the bad and the good.
27:27
And um During the time I was writing this, we weren't I was they had put me out of their life.
27:35
You know, I lost my place in their life.
27:37
And um And I spent months trying to get back in their life, you know?
27:42
And I They, rightfully so, were like, "Hey, like when we met, like you were a mess.
27:51
And And I think that the stability that they had in their life was really attractive to me.
27:59
And I think I I I leeched it.
28:02
And so here I was, you know, face down on the ground with nobody, nothing.
28:08
And I was just thinking about how much their love had uh kept me fed.
28:14
And and for the first time it felt like you know, I think the the the theme in the first two verses is like, "If I don't need you, I don't need anything." Right?
28:22
"I need you more than I need anything."
28:24
And the last verse is like, "I'm finally getting giving that love I learned from you to me." Yeah.
28:30
And >> [laughter] >> this is so lame.
28:33
I remember last year, May, I was I had this acoustic tour and I My buddy put me on this app. It's called ChatGPT.
28:41
I don't know if anyone's heard of it, but it's it's it's going around and and people were like, "Oh, you can I like to unhear that if possible.
28:48
[laughter] Can we go back?
28:49
I really want to unknow that app." Yeah, me too.
28:51
And I had never I had never used it and they were like my buddy was like, "Yeah, like I told I gave it it's it's my trainer.
28:58
It's giving me workout prompts."
29:00
And this is how wrecked I was, bro.
29:02
I was asking it for like therapy advice.
29:08
>> [snorts] >> And I was like, "How do you be okay with yourself?"
29:10
Which again, so like I can't this is If anyone clips this, go to hell.
29:18
But I asked ChatGPT for advice on how to love myself.
29:23
>> [laughter] >> And it said, "You might want to try like hugging yourself."
29:26
And I thought that was so funny.
29:29
And so I was in this hotel in like Richmond, Virginia like doing like an hour of yoga and then just hugging myself and crying.
29:40
And then I was like, "What if I kissed myself?"
29:42
And I remember literally like like trying to literally love myself in a way that like you would want someone to love you.
29:52
And I and I just thought how insane that I'm sitting in here like 3 months sober kissing my own shoulder trying to fill this hole that this person had left.
30:00
And then realizing it wasn't their hole, it's my And yeah, this is my this is one of the my favorite songs.
30:13
Because it like love songs a lot of the love songs I've written historically in my catalog are very toxic. They're codependent.
30:21
One of my I get DMs all the time of people being like, "Our song is triple marathon."
30:25
I'm like, "You should check the recipe [laughter] on that cuz that song is unhealthy.
30:28
It is about do you know how much I need you?"
30:33
>> I know, but we're simple creatures and we think that we you know walking down the aisle to every breath you take is normal.
30:40
>> [laughter] >> Come on. >> And it's not. No. >> It's not. >> RIP Biggie.
30:45
Um >> [laughter] >> Yeah.
30:47
>> Yeah, so this feels like true love to me and I don't think I've ever really written a true love song.
30:54
But this feels like I love you, I need you.
30:57
Actually, I don't need you. Thank you for loving me. Peace. >> I got a question.
31:02
Have you played it to the person that it's about? >> Yeah. >> Did they respond? Did they accept it? >> Yeah. >> Beautiful. >> Yeah. >> Music, man.
31:12
And so they're back in your life? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Music, man.
31:17
How can you not believe in [snorts] magic?
31:20
It's It's one of those things I feel like and I I feel this when I hear your songs.
31:25
I always get And this is the same for anyone who's writing songs or searching for music or searching for art, right?
31:29
This infinite magic and math that's sitting there in whatever unique equation and waiting for you to show up for work.
31:35
You know, be open enough to accept and receive, but I really feel like these songs wait for you.
31:41
You know, what's your relationship like with your songs?
31:43
Sorry if that's a bit abstract, but you know, how do you feel about them when they show up for you?
31:50
Because I [clears throat] you can take ownership of them, but can you? I don't know if you can.
31:58
>> No, I I I I often think about it as the person um sometimes when I'm stoned I'll hear a song not of mine, but I You know, there's a certain place when you get just the right amount of high where music like feels like the best literally the best thing you've ever There there is that is God.
32:19
Like you are touching God.
32:20
Every once in a while some You know, you know it when you're hearing like some '90s pop radio and you're like, "That's genius."
32:26
You're like, "Whoa, I'm in the flow."
32:28
And when I get there, what I challenge myself to do is go listen to myself. Every once in a while.
32:35
So it'll be like once I'll be having this really good stoned night and I'll like you hear like a Sugar Ray song and you're like crying. You're like >> yeah.
32:43
>> I should try to go be generous with me.
32:45
And so I'll go listen to like an old record of mine. Like Mean Machine. >> dude. Come on.
32:51
>> Don't you dare mess with my MEAN MACHINE.
32:54
>> [laughter] >> IT'S LIGHT GREEN AND WATER OF GREEN. THIS I LOVE THAT SONG.
33:00
DUDE, WHEN when Crazy Town Butterfly when Butterfly >> Too far.
33:05
>> But then >> Every morning there's a halo hanging from massive.
33:13
How can I mean >> [sighs] >> Just wind the windows down and just enjoy life when that song is on.
33:19
>> And that's what I'm saying.
33:19
When I'm enjoying life where that feels genius, I want I'm so mean to myself and so critical voice that I when I find a softness in my my cerebellum or whatever >> Oh, it's healing an opportunity to heal.
33:35
>> I want to go look at myself in the mirror.
33:36
For how many times you've been mean to yourself in the mirror?
33:38
And one day you're feeling nice and you're like GO DO THE THING NOW. GO DO THE THING NOW.
33:43
So I'll go listen to like maybe some I've made that I haven't put out yet.
33:46
Or I'll go listen to ancient And you're asking about relationship to song.
33:49
I don't think damn that song's genius or that song's great.
33:54
I think I'm so glad Nick showed up and and wrote that that day. >> There it is. >> So I think about him. You know? I'm like wow.
34:01
That guy was like such an idiot.
34:04
Like that guy worked a a 12-hour shift at a barbecue restaurant that day and still got that out? What a king.
34:10
I'm so proud and honored. I'm proud of him.
34:14
I'm like, you know, golf clap.
34:17
>> When you hear in that particular moment hopefully with increasing regularity when you hear a song like in my god, you know, and you know that like I always think that there must be a moment in your life at least once where you sit down and listen to that, or you're on stage and you're playing it and you're like, "Thank God it was waiting for me." >> Mhm. >> You know? >> Yeah.
34:40
>> Thank God that those chords and that sentiment and those ideas and that emotion was that I was feeling.
34:43
I was able to tap into that because that exists forever now.
34:48
That that is that is immortality.
34:49
I mean, that is that is that is it is immortality.
34:52
I mean, it's like those songs live long after we're gone.
34:56
>> Well, specifically about In My Gut, I wrote that with Annika Bennett, who's a fantastic artist, and like she made the track. She wrote those chords. That little sick riff.
35:10
I showed up at her house, she had that track made, and then we talked for an hour about our dads, and then I was like, "Can I like maybe like interpret some stuff you said about your childhood?"
35:18
And then I just I wrote the lyrics on there, but we kind of And I think that the way you're talking about like how thank thank God that the muse gave me these chords, it's like, "Thank God that the muse gave me these friends." >> Yeah, yeah.
35:31
>> Thank God the muse gave me this whatever.
35:33
Like, I I life is not a it's not a bootstrap.
35:37
I didn't Nothing I have I did alone.
35:41
Like, in showing up on the, you know, whatever I I always say it showing up on the mat cuz it's like that's I love yoga, but like showing up at the piano, showing up at the guitar, showing up at the code right, showing up at lunch with your homie, showing up on your phone, like answering that text, being connected, like plugging into whatever is outside of you.
35:58
You can call it God or the universe, or you can just call it whatever like that is the the big chore, and then life rewards energy.
36:05
Energy begets energy, you know?
36:09
Like, and so like, Annika had the sauce that day. >> Mhm.
36:15
>> I just showed up and was like, "Whoa, that that's sick.
36:16
Can we Can we dance and paint on that?" You know?
36:19
And then other things come, and I don't know, man.
36:23
I I want to be I would would to sit here and just be like I'm a genius, but like it's it's a lot of like luck.
36:31
>> No, what you are is you're available. >> Yes.
36:33
And and and I think I think that greatness comes when you make yourself available.
36:37
And it just sounds like you weren't making yourself available for a while. And now you are.
36:42
And that and that's like I think that's that's when we get out of our 20 cuz you're like, "Hey, I'm I'm open." >> Yeah. >> I'm available now.
36:50
>> Oh, >> people, for songs, for inspiration, for for moments, memories.
36:55
>> I don't want to be this but like the industry doesn't always reward availability. You know?
37:01
>> You know you're right.
37:02
>> It's hard to commercialize um you know, if you if if it were if it if it's weather, right?
37:07
If it's if it's like if it literally is rain and wind and like if if God and inspiration and availability to the muses is an unpredictable market, we don't want an unpredictable market.
37:22
We want things that are predictable.
37:22
We want safe bets, right?
37:26
>> and also, you know, I I I've got a quarter.
37:28
I got to put you on the grid.
37:30
You know, I've got to figure this out. >> Yeah.
37:31
Cuz people cuz then understandably we've got to figure all this out.
37:33
We've got to we've got to make all these things work and la la la.
37:34
I mean, there's a feeling a sense of freedom in the way that you move.
37:39
I think that should be, you know, to some degree and to you know, honor your team that they obviously give you the space to be able to go and grow and live some life and come back and you know, it's you have revealed this experience that you been through.
37:56
And credit to everybody you work with and you to yourself in the way you move, I we would never have known.
38:03
You know, you were to me you were off making another record and just doing the thing, you know?
38:05
And so I guess my I guess my point is is it's like I don't don't you feel like you don't have to worry so much about the grid anymore? Like it's >> Yeah. Bro.
38:17
Because I if I had This sounds dramatic. Whatever.
38:24
You You That's how what you do to artists.
38:26
You get us all talking crazy.
38:29
Um >> You opened the door.
38:29
I'm just in there with you, man. >> in my head >> Mhm.
38:34
>> I died on that stage in Birmingham.
38:38
I died in that hotel room in Adelaide when I wrote that letter. >> Mhm.
38:43
>> I Like the Nick the guy that was like trying to tight grip it, like >> Mhm. >> he died.
38:49
And now I'm I'm in this like second life.
38:54
And I'm not worried about the business.
38:55
I'm not worried about the streams.
38:57
And And I I Obviously, I look at it, and I hope it goes well because I want to, you know, have my parents die comfortably, but >> is.
39:07
>> I can't worry I I do have an amazing team.
39:11
I go be crazy and connect and find, you know, plug my soul into the the the the matrix and hope some comes out.
39:19
And then I have people that help me organize it.
39:20
But I can't worry about the packaging, the organizing, and the distribution, and the commoditizing because I want to stay plugged into God.
39:29
I want to stay plugged into my family.
39:32
Like I want to watch my brother's kids grow up.
39:34
I cannot be You know, and I already check myself.
39:37
Like my uncle or my my little nephew came and stayed with me for a couple weeks last month.
39:43
And like anytime he catches me on my phone Yeah.
39:47
And he's like, "Yo, what's up?"
39:47
I don't want to be that little on my phone.
39:51
Like God, I am not I Like I've lived this long to be to learn how to be 10 years old again.
39:58
>> Yeah, cuz your curiosity's peaking now. You can tell. It's in your eyes, man.
40:03
It's like you can see it. I mean, it's it's clear.
40:05
And on stage you it's clear that you are just like, like I said, very available. >> Hey. Come on. And And I Yeah. Thank you.
40:16
I It it's it's I I like almost want to you it's you it's such a temptation to preach from that place. >> I totally.
40:29
>> To to lead >> Like come follow me.
40:32
>> Follow me and I'll show you how to not give a It's like, no, there's I have I have nothing. It is it is nothing.
40:38
My hands the grip I have on this whole thing is loose.
40:44
You know, you can notice that, but like I the only way to keep your grip loose is to keep your grip damn ass loose. So, what is of value? I'm breathing.
40:57
I'm had an hour-long conversation with my brother yesterday. That felt good.
41:01
We hadn't talked in a while.
41:03
Starting to wonder if we were still friends type And then you you catch each other and you're like, how are you? How are you? Great. I love you.
41:10
>> Yeah, yeah, you got to get through the real quick. >> Yeah.
41:13
>> And you got to force you got to hold man, one of the things you have to do as well, especially with the people that love you unconditionally, so you have to hold each other accountable to your own relationships.
41:20
It's very easy to slot into the comfort zone of of which could becomes uncomfortable over time. >> Yeah.
41:26
>> You know, it's like, oh, I don't have to check in.
41:27
I don't have to do any of that. It's all good. We'll figure it out.
41:29
And then that can lead to a place of of unknowing.
41:32
And I I think the thing that you really really we really have to like do this with our family is we have to like hold each other accountable for our relationships and not assume anything. >> Yeah.
41:44
>> Like I'm pretty big on that as well. >> Yeah.
41:47
Oh, but it's so easy just to autopilot and never go deeper than a just one scoop, you know?
41:55
>> But you know what teaches you that lesson is when you care about someone and then you run out of time.
42:00
That really teaches you that lesson very fast.
42:03
And if you're lucky, you're listening and you learn it.
42:04
And you don't want that to happen again, right?
42:07
I mean, I've had that with someone very close to me where I'm like, man, you know, I'm counting the times I didn't pick up the phone.
42:14
>> Dude, death is the ultimate teacher. >> They're still here. That's even harder.
42:18
>> Oh, >> You don't need this from me. You're in it.
42:21
You just got to You just got to be in the moment as much as you can.
42:22
And it's a full lifelong discipline.
42:27
You just You remind yourself all the time.
42:29
>> Oh, it's the It's the most depressing and debilitating part of being alive is what Like having clarity and then a week later being like, "Where the did all that clarity go?" >> I know. I know.
42:43
>> Like I knew that person was bad news and a week later you're like, "I should text him." >> I know.
42:48
>> [laughter] >> It's like, "No." >> I know. I know.
42:51
>> Like I will have the like the you know, like Kundalini out the ass, like absolute [clears throat] aware like connection to God.
43:00
And then like 2 days later I'm like, "I should really lay in bed."
43:03
>> It's going to happen like that for the rest of our lives, too.
43:04
Whatever whatever capacity, man, we chip away at it.
43:08
These This I hope they help you.
43:10
These songs really help us. They really do.
43:12
And I And I share that I say that to all artists brave enough to release their music. I hope they help you.
43:20
You know, I I I'm going to guess they do. >> Yeah.
43:22
>> But uh they really are a gift for us, man, for sure.
43:25
>> I'm excited to play for our fans again.
43:28
We haven't headlined in 2 years since the last record.
43:31
>> You got big songs, too, man.
43:31
Productive, I mean >> [laughter] >> I can't believe people bought into that.
43:37
>> you can Oh, yeah, dude. That's a banger.
43:39
That was also on my short list of songs you had to play today. I love that one. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I'm just being honest.
43:48
And it is it is helpful for me to write them, but I um I'm really excited to play them. >> Mhm.
43:55
>> And uh and then I'm excited to not do music.
43:57
I think after this album cycle, I'm going to not do music for a minute and see what that feels like. >> Yeah, yeah.
44:02
>> Like I I really am excited to be curious. >> Yeah. >> Like you said. >> Yeah.
44:07
>> Like What if I I mean I want to learn to paint or I want to start taking pictures.
44:11
I want to make a I want to make a god damn movie. >> Yeah.
44:14
>> I want to I I want to build build something.
44:17
>> Do you know Michael Stipes said something really inspiring to me once he many many years ago.
44:20
I said to him, "How did you write lyrics on this album?"
44:21
He said, "Well, on this particular album I just packed a travel backpack and I went to the airport and I just looked up at the departure boards and I just saw what planes were leaving in a couple of hours and then I went to kiosk and I said, "Can I get a ticket to Do you have any availability to the one going to Phuket?"
44:44
And they're like, "Yeah, we've got a seat."
44:45
He's like, "Oh, I'll just buy that. I'll buy it. I'll just go to Phuket."
44:49
And then I mean it wasn't Phuket but whatever. >> Yeah.
44:51
>> And then he'd land and he'd spend a few days and he'd sit around and he'd just write lyrics.
44:55
Look at people and go for walks and meet strangers and have a life.
44:59
And then he go, "All right, I'm done with this."
45:01
And go to the airport and go, "Have you got Is there anyone Has any tickets left to Perth?"
45:09
>> [laughter] >> And they go, "Yeah, yeah, buy tickets to Perth."
45:10
And he just flies somewhere else.
45:12
And now obviously that's somebody with means but you can do it in your own way without it being, you know, comfortable seats on a plane to Perth.
45:21
>> One of my favorite songs on the record came from me being early to a a doctor's appointment and sitting in the like in the park next to the office. >> Yeah.
45:30
>> And I watched a woman doing tai chi in the park and was like, "Damn, it'd be sick if I had wisdom and zen like that."
45:38
>> Such a paradox too to watch somebody going through this beautiful symbiotic healing harmony experience while you're sitting in a doctor's office which by its very nature regardless of the appointment is an anxiety inducing ex >> Oh my god.
45:51
Yeah, and I I was actually like I was way too early so that's what led to the time of me being >> was it?
45:57
>> It's called Bird Woman.
45:58
>> Yeah, I love that song.
45:58
>> So I'm like watching this woman do tai chi.
46:00
That song's >> I wish that I was her, but I'm I'm hearing this mockingbird doing all its calls and I'm realizing I'm that little I'm the show-off >> Yeah.
46:09
>> trying to attract mates, trying to to show everyone how good I am.
46:12
And I hear I'm watching this like >> Is that where the tension comes from?
46:16
Cuz that song does not say tai chi to me sonically.
46:18
>> No, no, it's not That's the whole point.
46:20
It's like There's a woman in the park, you know, facing east, moving slow, bringing her fists into her gut like she's pulling a boat in and there's a mockingbird singing every song he's ever known. >> That's what you do.
46:29
>> a show-off no doubt just trying to get laid. >> That's what you do.
46:31
>> I want to be the how I want to be the woman, but I'm really the bird.
46:35
As much as I I'm just telling you all this about my sobriety and my healing and my blah blah blah, I'm a insecure weird chip on his shoulder anxious little >> We all are. Sorry.
46:48
We all are in our own way. That's what we are.
46:52
That's why we're so weird.
46:54
I went to a doctor's office once and a friend of mine called me.
46:57
He's a singer in a very successful band and he called me and I was like, "I can't talk.
47:01
I'm at a doctor's office." He said, "What's wrong? You dying?"
47:03
And I after I hung up I thought that's bold cuz maybe maybe I am.
47:08
>> [laughter] >> That's a bold thing to ask somebody in a doctor's office even as a joke. I was like, "Brave."
47:14
>> And you And like low-key, yeah, bro. We all are.