0:00
I wanted to ask you like what's your favorite love story ever?
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0:02
Uh or is is there one that you have whether it's a real life one, a client, a a personal experience, a book is you know what's your favorite story of love?
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That is a really tricky question.
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There's a there's a movie I saw recently.
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Uh it's a Japanese movie called Weathering With You. I've not seen that. It's an animated movie.
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this guy he he he created what was at one time the biggest uh grossing anime of all time.
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But this movie Weathering with You is about a young guy and a girl who are you know in this kind of this young love there's this kind of mythical story where she it's constantly raining in Tokyo and she has the power to make the rain go away.
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They call her a sunshine girl, but and everyone she's so prized because she's the sunshine girl.
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And so she's constantly called upon by people who are running events or fireworks displays or whatever to come along and make it stop raining only and I spoiler alert for anyone who's not seen weathering with you by the way, come back in 3 minutes.
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[laughter] Um but there's uh every time she does it, she she start a piece of herself starts to disappear.
1:21
M and it gets to the point where she completely floats up into the sky and no longer has a presence here on Earth because she's given so much as the Sunshine Girl. Wow.
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And there's a moment where he goes to save her from up in the clouds because he realizes she can't, you know, even if she comes back down to earth and never does another thing as a sunshine girl and all it does is rain all day, he still chooses her. Wow.
1:52
And the for me at least, I'm not saying the director meant this, but it's so beautiful because it felt to me like a story of a of a person who was accepting that even if being with you means that it's that it's raining. Yeah. I still choose you.
2:09
I don't just choose you when the sun is shining. Mhm.
2:14
And that there's something stunningly beautiful to me about that because that's a it's a much more grownup kind of love than the one that we tend to look for in our 20s. Yeah.
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Or as teenagers and some of us for the rest of our lives where you know we love someone as long as the sun is shining.
2:29
But when when the chips are down and when things are tough they start reassessing everything.
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That was a beautiful answer. [laughter] I love that. That was wonderful.
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I mean like I love movies too.
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So, when you said a movie and I've not seen that movie, so that sounds amazing. I love that. What a great love story.
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And uh yeah, now now I don't know.
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Should I still watch the movie?
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I really enjoy and there's another movie he did prior to that called Your Name. Okay.
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And um and there there there's something very beautiful about his movies.
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Yeah, I would check them out. Yeah. Okay, I'll take a look. Yeah. No, I love that.
3:01
And and it's so interesting with what you referred to there, this idea of the view we have of love and relationships in our teens, in our 20s, or like you said, for some people their whole life.
3:12
How do you think your view of love has changed while helping people create, find, keep love?
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I mean, you know, you've been on this amazing journey.
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You've been doing this for what, a decade now? 15 years. 15 years, right? Okay.
3:24
So, you've been doing this for 15 years.
3:25
How has your view of love changed over the last 15 years of actually working with people and speaking on stages, being interviewed in all these places?
3:36
I suppose getting older myself, and I realize I'm still relatively speaking a young man, but getting older myself, it's become much more apparent to me the importance of re-evaluating what is actually important in a partner.
3:53
And we tend to our younger selves, we we do have this list of things that we think we want that seem important. Might be charisma.
4:06
It might be the fact that, you know, someone uh is super sexy because they can speak three languages or that, you know, they've achieved a certain status in their life or an award or whatever.
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They're they can play the guitar.
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And we we rate these things as these things and we you know when we think of losing someone, we look at all of those things and go, I couldn't lose them.
4:30
You know, they're they're funny and they're charismatic and and they're super fun to be around and they're sexy and they can play the guitar and they can, you know, speak three languages and and it still is a kind of Instagram profile version of a person.
4:44
M and someone recently said to me like, "I'm in a relationship with a guy and you know he plays the guitar and I find that really sexy and he's really good-looking and and I'm like it he doesn't need in order to be in a relationship with you, he doesn't need to be great at music.
5:02
He needs to be great at a relationship." Yeah.
5:08
And if you want to hear someone play guitar really well, go to a John Mayer concert like cheering away. Yeah.
5:13
Like you don't need that every day in your relationship, [laughter] right?
5:17
What's important in a relationship is someone who is really competent in a relationship and has those skills.
5:24
And those skills are hard one.
5:26
It's one of the reasons that relationships with big age gaps don't work.
5:35
It's not because there is necessarily a chasm in the way these two people feel.
5:43
It's that there is a huge chasm when it comes to their relationship competence and their experience.
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And that really does matter.
5:54
And if you're with someone who has an in a far uh lower level of relationship experience, then they either have to learn through you, which is going to be a painful process.
6:06
They're going to make a lot of mistakes.
6:07
they're going to hurt you a lot in the process that you're gonna feel like you're gonna have to be careful of avoiding the role of teacher constantly in the relationship and try and be equals in a situation that's inherently kind of unequal.
6:19
Um and and you're going to have to hope that they do learn those skills.
6:25
You're making quite a big bet on the idea that one day they will have that skill set.
6:30
Some people take most of their lives to get it and some people never learn it because they're not the kind of people that want to grow and be self-aware and do the work.
6:38
And so I I have come to really believe that my my view of love has changed to the extent that I think firstly the idea of you know is it about meeting the right person or is it about it being the right time and I've started to weight my opinion far more towards time. Wow.
7:03
that when you have decided it's the right time for you to really meet someone, you go into love with a completely different intentionality.
7:15
Love isn't happening to you.
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It's not this wave that's washing over you, which is super easy.
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When a wave's washing over you, you just stand there and just bask in the goodness of how wonderful it feels to to feel that sort of drug.
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But that's not the same thing as as intentionally.
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There's a difference between winning the lottery and starting a business.
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You know, when you start a business, there's a method.
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There's a a practical there's a pragmatism to it.
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The things you need to do in order to build this thing.
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And I think that that to me it's I don't think I've developed a less romantic view.
7:52
I I actually if anything have more and more and more come to see a person who's in a place where they're willing to actually do the work of a relationship as romantic. Yeah.
8:05
And I think people consistently get burned when they're not factoring into the equation of how right someone is, whether this person is demonstrating a that they are also at a time in their life where they're looking for the same thing and b that they have genuine great relationship skills.
8:27
Like you know, we're all going to argue at some point, but how do we argue? Yeah. Right.
8:33
That's that's just one area, but it's a huge thing. Mhm.
8:37
So that that to me would probably be the biggest shift.
8:39
I I believe in timing more these days and I believe that we inc we undervalue to an incredible extent genuine relationship skills and we overvalue just kind of mindless attraction. Yeah. Yeah. I love that answer, man.
8:56
That's so that's so fascinating to compare person versus time. And I Yeah.
9:00
I often say to my friends like the most romantic thing in the world is someone who's trying to build relationship competence.
9:07
Like that that is the most romantic expression that someone can have.
9:11
I love the way you talk about relationship skills and we're talking about relationship competence.
9:16
I find that actually and and I can say this for my relationships too before I met my wife and with now uh relationship competence always felt like both people didn't have it.
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I don't think I was in many relation where I had it and the person didn't.
9:29
I actually think for many years it was just we both like me and the other person we both had zero relationship competence.
9:34
How do you think people build relationship competence?
9:38
Because it almost feels like and you're right and you know I know we both agree on this that you just expect to know how to be in a relationship and you kind of just you're almost expected to know that oh yeah you start dating and then you know what to do next and none of us know what to do next or now.
9:51
Tell us about how you go about building relationship competence and what are the skills that you kind of break it down into for people to think about that.
10:00
Well, firstly, I had very much the same experience as you.
10:03
[laughter] I always thought I was such a great guy in relationships.
10:06
I really did like [laughter] I always thought I was so, you know, the line I always used to say about myself is, you know, I yeah, maybe I wasn't ready or maybe I wasn't in a place where I wanted the same thing, but I was a great partner while I was in it. It wasn't true.
10:23
No, I was I was uh what's the word? I was a gentleman. I was respectful.
10:32
I in many way I've always been kind.
10:35
That's always been a throughine of my life.
10:37
But you can be kind and dumb. Yeah.
10:39
[laughter] And you can hurt a lot of people when you're kind and dumb, you know.
10:43
And so I I look back on myself and it sometimes it takes someone who's better than you at a certain part of a relationship.
10:51
Maybe not the whole thing, but they come along and and you notice that they, you know, going back to that example, argue differently than you do.
11:02
You went into fight mode and they they went into compassion mode and said, "Look, babe.
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I know you I know you feel like this, but here's like the way you're reacting right now.
11:14
Here's how it's making me feel." Mhm.
11:17
And you go, "Oh, that was different. What was that?"
11:19
It's like you learned a new move. What was that move?
11:22
I haven't seen that one before.
11:24
I'm usually I've been in relationships where I say this and then you give me the silent treatment and then I have just I I feel justified in then being mean because you're going silent and now we amp it up and and now all of a sudden you you you come across someone who takes you off road and and that's a scary moment and when someone takes you off road you have two choices.
11:48
You can either you can either be afraid of that.
11:51
I know there's something uncomfortable about it cuz you're not used to it.
11:55
Even kindness can be uncomfortable if you're not used to it. Absolutely. Right.
12:00
But when someone takes you off road that that really is an opportunity to watch what someone else is doing.
12:05
I think the same is true in business, right?
12:08
It's you you see someone else who just did a different thing like in your industry.
12:14
Someone did someone took a a turn that everyone else didn't.
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And you can either be the person who says, "What are they what are they? What's that? Why are they doing that? That's stupid."
12:22
Or they think that's going to work.
12:25
Like or you can go, "Oh, that's interesting.
12:27
No one else is doing that. Why are they doing that?
12:30
That's let me let me check that out."
12:31
Like you could be curious about it.
12:34
Especially if you think, "Oh, there's something to that what they're doing." Yes.
12:38
And so I think that the exploring areas where someone isn't doing the same thing as you and it takes you into a different experience that's not bad.
12:48
It's like it almost feels like oh this is uncomfortable but maybe it's showing me something I'm not very good at.
12:54
You know maybe they just maybe they went out with their friends and I picked a fight cuz I'm jealous about something that I think is I I've got this portrayal of what's going on or whatever.
13:06
I went out with my friends and they said, "Hey, have a have have the best night, babe." Yeah.
13:10
And I'm like, "Oh, that's weird."
13:12
Everyone I've been with so far as when I go out with my friends, they get super jealous. Yeah.
13:17
And that always makes me feel like I've got something to resist. Yes.
13:20
But now I just went out and they said, "Have the best night.
13:21
By the way, you look gorgeous." And I'm like, "Uh, okay. What's that? Well, that's a new move.
13:27
Which is what's that one?"
13:29
You know, and you learn something and that you pay attention cuz you go, "That was really interesting.
13:34
That made me my god that made me that made me when I was out think about them half the time, you know, and think what a sexy confident person they are.
13:44
Yeah, that's I want to make her feel that when she next goes out. Yeah.
13:49
And that apparently that that's how you do that. Oh, that's interesting. And you learn from it.
13:53
So, I think that there's a learning that we get from relationships.
13:56
But in order to do that, you actually have to be in a space of of of being willing to put eyes on yourself. Yeah.
14:04
And in a constant student mindset, which most of us are not.
14:07
You know, we do go into relationships, a lot of us, thinking we know it all.
14:10
We learned it all from our last relationship.
14:13
We But there's there is just it's a cliche, but they're just there's always another level.
14:18
There are so many levels to life.
14:20
And it fascinates me because I I'm always thinking that.
14:25
I'm just thinking, my god, there are so many people that are so good at so many different things.
14:30
Like not I'm not saying everyone's better than us.
14:33
They might be good at this one piece of the puzzle, but you watch how they do it and you go that's really interesting.
14:38
There's something to learn from that.
14:40
But if we're constantly trying to defend our own position and trying to feel like what we do is the right way, we'll never we'll never learn that. Yeah. Yeah.
14:50
And I do I'm a believer in I'm a believer in therapy or anything that gets you to be to to look at yourself in a in a constructive way and and someone in front of you who's not going to give you the answers that you want. Mhm.
15:08
You know, I remember a long time ago um me saying to a friend like I'm in I was in this relationship and I was like, you know, this person wants to speak a lot and I've you know, I've got this and I've got this and I've got this.
15:23
And I was expecting him to be like, well, she sounds like a lot of work.
15:29
Like, she sounds really difficult, man. That's Yeah. Like, tell me about it.
15:31
And instead, he went kind of with her on this one. Yeah.
15:36
Like actually it's super important that you he he was like [laughter] he actually said to me something funny.
15:42
He goes you he goes I go to the gym onetenth of the time you do [laughter] but I have a body like a bag of milk.
15:53
He said so you get what you pay for.
15:55
You know and in your relationship you get what you pay for.
15:56
You know if you want it to be great invest in it.
15:58
And and that's that friend or that mentor or that therapist.
16:05
Don't ever see them again.
16:06
[laughter] Fire them immediately.
16:11
They're worth their weight in gold because we surround ourselves with, you know, people, you know, men surround themselves with the boys club. Oh, man.
16:19
She sounds diff Oh, you know, that's so high maintenance, blah, blah, blah.
16:23
And women surround themselves with with their friends who sit around and say, I can't believe he did.
16:27
I can't believe he said that to you. I can't.
16:31
And half of them sometimes are sitting there going, "You kind of seem like the unreasonable one here." But they don't tell her. Yeah.
16:38
And then she gets further ingrained in this way of thinking.
16:40
In fact, they even may amp her up. Yeah.
16:44
And send her back into a relationship charged now and and even more defiant.
16:50
And now, you know, you get even more conflict.
16:52
So that those to me are some of the key ways to learn and and just to be open.
16:57
Always always always always be be open. Yeah, I love that. I I love that. I think it's so true.
17:02
And I love what you said about how like it's not like you're going to meet the mentor in your partner or the coach or the guru, but like they may be just better at one thing, but maybe great at just one area of a relationship and that's what you're kind of mining and picking from them.
17:14
I I when I look back at what you're saying in my relationship, I'm trying to reflect it in my teens, I realized I had a serious issue with I just loved being loved. Mhm. And so I was kind.
17:25
I I I identify with so much of what you said. I was always kind.
17:30
I was always a gentleman.
17:30
I was always like generous.
17:32
But I realized that in my teens, I would go above and beyond to want someone to fall in love with me. And that's all I wanted.
17:39
All I actually wanted was for someone to fall in love with me.
17:44
And it didn't actually matter who it was sometimes.
17:45
Like it wasn't even that I really liked them or knew them or understood them.
17:50
I just wanted that feeling of this person loves me.
17:54
And of what would often happen is they would fall in love with me because I would be the perfect guy by giving them gifts and remembering this and whatever it was.
18:00
And and then I would feel like they're not giving me anything back.
18:04
Now I feel like the one I'm the one who's doing all the loving and there's no love back which I've only created myself because of my crazy cycle.
18:11
Totally relate to all of that. And I was that guy too.
18:13
And those guys will often look at guys who are kind of the text book the textbook jerk. Yeah. And be like, "What? He's awful." Yes.
18:27
Like, you know, he slept with her and he completely ghosted her and he never called her again or he disrespect whatever. He's you.
18:34
It's easy to point to that guy. Yeah.
18:36
And be like, "What a piece of crap that guy is."
18:39
But we're more dangerous. [laughter] Yeah.
18:44
I would then break up with them because I didn't feel loved and then I'd feel like I was the victim and that I'd been the one not treated well.
18:51
And then my wife broke me because I tried to I I I did the same thing with her.
18:54
I was always like, but she wasn't impressed by any of the ways I tried to love her apart from being me.
19:00
And that was when it all kind of like unraveled and I was like, "Oh, I finally found someone who actually didn't want all the stuff I was trying to do to get her to love me."
19:08
And so my wife was the kind of person who broke through that barrier because she just didn't care about the stuff or the memory or the gifting or the extravagant.
19:21
Like she hated all that stuff.
19:23
And so all of a sudden my technique wasn't not tech, it wasn't even a technique.
19:26
It was genuine in my delusion, but it wasn't working anymore, right?
19:32
And that's when I had to really look at it because I really loved my wife and I was like, "Oh, I actually have to really look at this."
19:35
And so she was the one who broke that and taught me that idea. That's beautiful. Yeah.
19:41
So it took someone who valued something completely different than the thing that the weapon you were used to using. Right. Exactly.
19:51
The move the move that I She like took away all of your special moves. Yeah. All the power was gone.
19:55
You have to fight this fight now with none of these special moves.
19:58
And then you're all of a sudden, like you say, it's like being stripped bare.
20:02
Now I get a chance to truly be loved for who I am, not the performance that I'm doing in the beginning, which as you say, it's not that it's not genuine. Yeah.
20:14
It wasn't like I was manipul it wasn't manipulative.
20:17
It's genuinely about getting something for oursel as opposed to genuinely about discovering somebody else or building something or whatever.
20:27
and and and I did the same thing.
20:30
And it's it's one of the great, you know, I deal with my god, in my company, I we're dealing with, I mean, millions of women a month worldwide, but tens of thousands in terms of real coaching.
20:43
And the one of the biggest problems is people falling for people really quickly. Yes.
20:53
Falling in love too fast.
20:53
where it's because they went on a couple of great dates with the guy and they can look at the date and go, he was amazing and you you should have seen what he did and how he was on the date and all of that.
21:06
And the thing I have to always break down is that may not have been about you. Mhm.
21:14
It is about something he wanted you to feel by the end of the date. Mhm.
21:19
And not that, you know, you I I'm a I kind of loathe this culture we have right now where everyone's a narcissist.
21:29
Like we call we're so quick to like label he's a narcissist, she's a narcissist.
21:33
Like I'm like not every like we all have a narcissistic streak. Absolutely.
21:38
And we all exhibit narcissistic behaviors at time.
21:40
That doesn't mean we're a diagnosable narcissist, but a narcissistic streak we all have early in dating and to differing degrees is the desire to impress. Yes. Rather than connect. Mhm.
21:57
And so we go on a date with someone and you know at the height of it if someone's really on the extreme end they will give the greatest date of someone's life. Yeah.
22:05
that person goes away and they're like, "This guy is amazing."
22:07
Or this person and they they may have put on an amazing date, but you you know nothing yet.
22:17
And what's cool about your wife say, you know, going going through that process with you is, you know, I can imagine for her, it's almost like, well, I want to see how you are in week four. Yeah.
22:28
Or I want to see how you are in month three. Yeah.
22:31
And until you've been there, you really don't know how great of a partner somebody is going to be. Yeah.
22:38
And that that's what I mean by, you know, when you ask me about what I've really learned about love and and I talked about valuing the wrong things.
22:45
That's one of the big ways that it shows up.
22:47
If you are getting [snorts] crazy nervous on a date, Mhm.
22:52
you're already that's already a reflection of the fact that you valued the wrong things because you're valuing this person's looks or their status or what you perceive them to be.
23:04
But you can't you're not valuing them in a relationship or in relation to you, which is defined by how much they give, how they connect with you, how they relate to you, how they see you. Yeah.
23:18
All of that stuff is complet. Yeah.
23:23
So, how can you be nervous if you're valuing the right things?
23:24
You can only be nervous if you're valuing the wrong things. Mhm.
23:29
If that to me is the key to eliminating early nerves in early dating is that there is I almost feel a little fatalistic about it, which is funny coming from someone who gives advice in this area for a living because you know I I do believe that we can influence situations with what we do.
23:47
But we do have to have a bit of a dose of fatalism that the thing that didn't pan out wasn't the thing. Mhm.
23:57
The person who's still great in week eight is showing you the right things.
24:02
But if they suddenly ghost you in week nine, then it doesn't mean they would have been great in week 16. Yeah. Yeah.
24:10
They're like, "Oh, but they were the one and I just I don't know what I need closure." You have closure. Mhm. That action was closure.
24:15
What they showed you is they had eight good weeks in them. Yeah.
24:20
[laughter] That's interesting. Yeah. That's interesting.
24:23
It's it's and it's the same as you'd say it in sport.
24:25
Like if you if you I'm just I was just thinking about sport while you were saying that.
24:29
It's the idea of like a player may have one good season in him or her. Mhm.
24:35
And then that player may have had 10 good seasons in him or her.
24:37
And sometimes we have these players where we're like, "Oh, she's going to be the next or he's going to be the next."
24:41
And then all of a sudden they don't give you that season.
24:45
And in sports we get closure by just going, "All right, they had potential but they didn't make it."
24:50
But you're right, in love and life, it's a lot hard to have that mentality of like, they gave me eight good weeks, but they didn't make it.
24:57
Well, you and you sit there and you obsess over someone who just left you going, you obsess over what they could have been. Yeah, that's what it is.
25:07
They could have, you know, this was so promising.
25:09
They were everything that I was looking for. This could have been.
25:14
And anytime you you someone breaks up with us, you know, the heartbreak is the loss of the life we thought we were going to have with someone, this is this is what it could have been.
25:25
This is what it should have been. Yeah.
25:29
And my answer to that is it would have been. Mhm.
25:32
If it should have been and could have been. Yeah. Then it would have been.
25:35
You're literally you're grieving over something that was not it by definition it wasn't meant to happen cuz it didn't happen. Yes. Yeah. It didn't happen.
25:51
So this idea that it it was supposed to or it should have is is myth. It's a fantasy. It's science fiction. Yeah.
26:00
But I feel like in relationships, we have this fantasy mind that's already written the script and the book and the trilogy before the second date is over.
26:13
And so it's almost like relationship seems to be like the one area of our life where we write decades into the future and we can't help ourselves because we almost think that that and and it's almost like you're living what you're saying is you're living off the fantasy, not even of the reality that's right in front of you.
26:28
And so even when you're on a date with them, you're not even there because you're in your fantasy land of what you think it is.
26:36
And that's where in in so many ways, everything that you are, you know, your expertise in mindfulness and everything you've learned there is so important in dating because in dating you have to be on the date you're on.
26:55
Mindful dating is be on the date you're on. Don't be on date two. But really, you're not. You're on date 32. Yeah.
27:04
Don't Your mind has to be on date two with your body. Yes.
27:08
And when people don't do that, that's where they start they start constructing a fantasy of where this relationship is going, a fantasy of who this person is.
27:20
They know 5% of someone and they've built the other 95% out of out of uh uh extrapolation. Yeah.
27:26
Oh, he was really sweet in that moment, you know.
27:28
I bet he's good with kids. I bet he's this. I bet he's that.
27:31
I bet he's, you know, I bet he's an amazing family man.
27:33
I bet, you know, and and and we've all had the experience of meeting someone who is incredibly charming, fun to be around, you know, and you went away from like as men, we sometimes go out and we meet another man and it's like we've been a date on a date with that man and you come home and you go, he was so great.
27:50
You know, I was like, I loved him to bits.
27:52
He was and he really charmed you and then 6 months later the that person has really lost their shine cuz they're flaky.
28:00
You realize they don't actually show up when when you need them to.
28:06
You realize that it's they they kind of, you know, it's that in the talented Mr.
28:11
Ripley, there's that great line.
28:13
Oh, that's a great movie. Great movie.
28:14
There's a great line where Matt Damon is like, you know, he's become the new chosen best friend of of um Jude Lord's character.
28:22
His name Jude Lord's character's name is Dicki.
28:24
And Matt Matt Damon is is feeling suddenly shut out.
28:26
suddenly shut out. like out of nowhere he feels shut out when five minutes ago he was like this guy's my best friend and he loves me and he's so and he says to Matt Damon's girlfriend at the time he he's expressing how he feels that it you know or no he's not even expressing
28:42
she sees the look on his face that he's sad that he no longer has this like friendship that feels real to him and she says the thing about Dicki is when when he puts his attention on you it's like the sun is shining on you And then the attention moves on and it's very cold. Yeah. Yeah.
29:01
And and that's the experience of a lot of those people.
29:03
But when you're taking the 5% of the sun shining on you and you use it to build the 95% that you cannot possibly know, you can't know who this person is when your brother gets sick and you need to travel to the hospital to be with that person and you need support in that moment.
29:19
You can't know how that person is when you're having an anxious moment and you need someone to show love and compassion towards you and this anxiety that you can't seem to control and what you really need is a loving teammate to be there with you and not to judge you.
29:33
You can't know what this person is like in year three of a relationship when the you know you need to make a shift in your sex life because it feels like that part has become stayed but you need to work together to figure it out.
29:46
You don't know what that person is like in those stages.
29:48
So, so thinking that you have all the answers because you've been on even 10 or 15 dates with this person and had a wonderful time is a is a fallacy, a fantasy.
30:00
There's a great um the the the relationship itself is about every stage of it and the effort that's put in.
30:06
And there's a there's a story from Bukowski where he he slept with a prostitute.
30:14
Every romantic story begins with [laughter] begins this way.
30:17
He slept with a prostitute and she um he woke up to her having stolen his poetry and he was so upset, so mad. Terrible. Yeah.
30:28
And um he wrote about it and he wrote a piece that was all about how you could take anything. Take my money.
30:34
Take the other stuff in the in the apartment.
30:39
Take it all, but please not my anything but my poetry.
30:43
And the the whole piece finishes with the line and then God said crossing his legs I see where I have created a great many poets but not so very much poetry. Wow.
30:56
And the the idea is that you know the person who has potential in a relationship is the poet. The poet. Everyone's a poet.
31:09
Not many people writing poetry. Yeah.
31:11
Writing is the more difficult part.
31:11
A lot of people who are great on a date, very romantic, very charming, they're a poet on a date.
31:19
The poetry is the relationship.
31:21
And and you shouldn't, you know, Bukowski was upset because his poetry was taken, the thing he'd worked on.
31:29
And that's how it should be in a relationship is don't don't get upset because you lost a poet.
31:34
Poets are are a dime a dozen. Poetry is rare. Mhm.
31:42
[clears throat] People who are willing to write the poetry of a relationship.
31:43
People who are willing to stick it with you for a year, two years, 5 years, 10 years.
31:49
That's really rare and and we need to start valuing the poetry far more than we value the poet. Yeah, I love that.
31:55
What a what a beautiful analogy.
31:56
Let's let's talk a bit about that poetry because I feel like what's amazing is we convince ourselves more of the fiction when you are lusting after that person's looks, fame, prestige, whatever, whatever they have that you're attracted to.
32:11
It's almost like then even if they do a million bad things like you said about the guy playing the guitar or whatever it is, it's like you're like, "Oh, but he's so or she's so whatever."
32:20
But tell us a bit about what to look out for.
32:23
So when people are out there and I know what I love about what you do is that and I love this conversation by the way so far because it's it's it's philosophical and it's real, but you're great at getting practical, too.
32:34
And I see that in all the work you put out.
32:37
What's some of the practical things that people can look out for?
32:39
I know so many friends who are in early relationships or just started to date someone or finally met someone.
32:46
What can they look for in those moments?
32:49
Or is it looking for anything?
32:51
Maybe that's even the wrong place to start.
32:53
I think it's so we have a duty early on to bring our best to the table in as much as we can.
33:00
We're all going to make mistakes.
33:00
We're all going to have anxious moments or jealous moments or moments where we let our insecurity get the better of us.
33:10
Moments where we let our anger get the better of us.
33:12
Everyone's going to have these moments, but we want to try and put our best foot forward.
33:20
But I always think that we learn a lot in the moments where you have your first fight or you reveal something about yourself and you see how they react to it.
33:33
You know, do they react with compassion or is there immediate judgment?
33:43
And and and I don't mean a moment where you kind of try and perform. Yeah.
33:48
I mean, a moment where you genuinely are brave enough to let someone in and be seen. Yes.
33:55
Does this person, do they see you? Do they acknowledge you?
33:59
And do they show compassion and curiosity about why you are that way and what's happened in your life to get you there?
34:08
Do they really are they looking to figure you out and who you are?
34:10
Is a wonderful wonderful sign because a lot of people are just in a relationship and they're sleepwalking. Yeah.
34:16
They're just they're they're enjoying it.
34:18
They're enjoying the fruits of the relationship, but you don't get the impression someone's really trying to get to know you.
34:24
You don't feel seen by that person.
34:27
The person who's actually asking questions of you, the person who's looking to understand the good and the bad in you. Mhm.
34:35
And who elevates the good and soothes the bad. Mhm.
34:40
That's something very beautiful to look out for.
34:43
to look out for. the person who can come back and say sorry as of course and I apply the same standard to to both sides but the person who can who can come back and say sorry you know again we we all when I'm when with one of my staff in my company when I say you know
35:02
when I give them a difficult piece of feedback I don't expect them to smile in that moment I don't expect them to like take you know in that I I would hope that they don't react in a really negative or toxic way, but I don't expect them to have an easy time with that. But if that person can go away over the
35:19
But if that person can go away over the next few hours or days and then come back and say, you know, I really thought about what you said and I'm going to work on that.
35:25
That's something to look for cuz you can really like that person.
35:30
If you're both that kind of person, you can work with that person. Yeah.
35:35
That's someone you can genuinely have a relationship with because it's not a relationship that's based on perfection or never having an argument, but it is based on two people who are humble enough to genuinely own their mistakes or to own the areas where they want to get better.
35:51
Um, I'm I'm always looking at the ways people argue and whether they whether they're trying to do damage in an argument or whether they're trying to rebuild in an argument.
36:06
And if you're with someone that every time you come out of an argument, you feel like they lacerated you and there's that you're you you come out of an argument bleeding every time, you know, and you're like, why did they have to say that? incredibly nasty thing.
36:21
And it's one thing if they come back 10 an hour later and say or even a day later and say, "I truly regret having said that to you and I will do better." Mhm.
36:33
But if they won't even acknowledge that that was a really toxic way to have an argument and that was a really nasty thing to say, then that's a problem because this is a relationship that's not going to soo you.
36:45
It's going to create more and more wounds.
36:47
So that I would say is an important thing and and two people genuinely genuinely at the core of it operating as a team.
36:59
What do you what do you need and can I tell you you know you're working really hard right now?
37:03
Can I understand what your goal is in doing this and seek to understand that and where that's coming from for you and why that's important.
37:15
But can I also voice to you that I'm not feeling very loved right now and that I'm I you know maybe it is just my insecurity or maybe that you know but I or maybe I don't have some enough as many things going on in my life right now as you do in yours but I know one of the effects is it's creating some anxiety for me and it's making me feel like you don't love me as much as I love you. You know it.
37:38
You want an environment where you can have that real conversation and it it then to me a relationship is no longer about right and wrong.
37:48
It's about the conversation. Mhm.
37:53
Can the conversation be had? Mhm.
37:56
That to me is one of the greatest signs of a relationship you should hang on to. Yeah.
38:02
Is can the relationship be had? Mhm.
38:04
And [clears throat] can it be had in a beautiful and and productive and loving way? Yeah.
38:10
Because that's all, you know, uh um David Brooks said, "Marriage is a 50-year conversation." Mhm. Right.
38:16
Is that conversation, does it feel good? Yeah.
38:21
Doesn't always feel comfortable, but does it feel like this is a conversation that is making me better? Yeah.
38:26
Or is it a conversation that's always making me worse? Yeah. I love that.
38:29
And and and I think it's it's such a vicious cycle though sometimes because I find that you get into an argument like you said which I think the first argument is such a great uh like it's such a great marker to put down as let's let's reflect on this.
38:44
I think that's such a great way of putting it that you said and if you look at that often what happens is the person reacts badly. It's natural.
38:50
you react badly to and then you're waiting for that person to make up and that person's waiting for you to make up and then maybe you go ahead and put the first hand in but then now they deal with the second bad and now you're waiting again and I feel like we get lost in this like waiting game and I kind of got to a point where I was just like I want to make sure that I am leading this conversation.
39:13
So a conversation that me and my wife always have is I'll always check in with her and be like is this relationship going in the direction you want it to go in?
39:19
like is this going in the direction?
39:21
Is this relationship what you want it to be?
39:23
And if it's not, what do you want it to be?
39:26
And what are you willing to do to get there?
39:28
Because and I'll always be like, well, this is not how I want the relationship to be and this is what I want it to be.
39:32
And I find like that conversation for me is really healthy. And I'm always happy.
39:38
One thing that I've got to right now, and I think my wife has this in different parts of our relationship, I'm always happy to take the responsibility for the quality of the relationship because I'm in it in the same way as I am with my company.
39:49
I'm for this podcast, the same as I'm for [snorts] it's easy to sit there and go, "Well, what are you bringing to the table?"
39:58
And and I realized at one point where I was like, "If I care about stuff, I've got to be okay with grabbing onto the reinss."
40:04
And the funny thing is I started to realize that that actually there plenty of times when my wife does that.
40:10
She just does it in different areas that I don't notice.
40:11
And so it can feel like I'm carrying the burden, but actually that's not true.
40:16
I'm I'm taking responsibility where I thrive and actually she's taking responsib responsibility where she thrives and I don't even notice that.
40:24
And that's when I started to feel healthier rather than like I was like well where you show up like what are you doing?
40:30
And uh I remember when I was a monk the the teachers would always tell us that you know you may sit in a class with a non-carismatic teacher.
40:42
So they were like some of the monks are not going to be the most charismatic, the most attentive, the most like dynamic teachers of the the the text and the spiritual scriptures.
40:54
And they were like, but if you're a student that's 10 out of 10, even if the speakers are one out of 10 in presentation, you're going to get lots.
41:02
But if you're a one out of 10 and the speaker is 10 out of 10, then they're lifting you up.
41:05
But by the way, if you're at a one out of 10 and they're at a one out of 10, that's all you're going to get.
41:10
And it's kind of like what your friend said about the bag of milk, you know, the the idea of like taking your own responsibility for if you want to be in a relationship.
41:20
I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
41:21
Yeah, but that speaks again. You're so right, Jay.
41:24
And it's be truly beautiful that you have that in your relationship.
41:27
And it's and it's also brave cuz talking those conversations are not easy.
41:32
They and people can say things in those relationship in those conversations that can scare us.
41:37
They could say, "Well, I'm not happy cuz I want it to go in this direction."
41:41
Yeah, I've heard that, too. Yeah.
41:42
Like, you know, or I didn't realize you were unhappy in that way, or I didn't realize you felt like that.
41:46
Though, it takes a lot of bravery to have conversations like that.
41:50
And I commend you for that.
41:51
And I and I think that's one of the things a lot of people aren't willing to do is step bravely into an area where they could be criticized. Mhm.
42:00
Um, but I I think it is one of the most important aspects of a relationship is being able to do exactly that.
42:09
So, no, I think it's I think it's a a stunning thing.
42:14
Well, it's uncomfortable like you're saying, it's not and and I'm not sharing like we've perfected it. We've got it right.
42:18
I'm just saying that that's what we've had to do in order to like, you know, we're only at year five, year eight in our relationship, year five in marriage, but it's like that's what we've just I've had to find these what you're saying like the 50-year conversation and and the idea you're saying of having these like I'm just I've noticed that without these things, you could go years without changing anything.
42:40
But speaking of what you said with the the idea of the monks, that to me goes back to the, you know, what I was saying about timing being important.
42:51
I do believe when you go into a relationship with genuine purpose and even when you go into dating with genuine purpose, you you know, you go on a dating app because a lot of people out there listening to this won't be in relationship.
43:03
They'll be right now in the crapshoot of dating apps trying to figure out how to navigate.
43:10
When we're intentional, we bring a different energy to the things we do.
43:16
We bring a different energy to a person.
43:19
And in a relation, in early dating, I think that when you're really intentional and when you really are like, I'm looking for a real connection here, you don't actually judge people as quickly. Yeah.
43:30
you don't dispose of people as quickly where you just go wrong wrong wrong.
43:36
You you start actually looking for what could be right.
43:38
You start and I'm not saying ignoring abusive and toxic behavior.
43:41
I'm just saying those superficial things.
43:43
We just, you know, decide no, they don't meet this checklist, they don't meet this one, whatever.
43:50
We lose that because what we're looking for is is deeper and we start genuinely seeking to like we're on a date and we start going let me really find out who this person is. Yeah.
44:00
Like let me really see them and let me not be judgmental of them so quickly and and look to understand them.
44:05
And the the reward for that is that this person now actually feels seen by you.
44:12
Yeah, that's great advice.
44:13
And they now give you a different energy than they may have given on the last 10 dates. Yeah.
44:17
you suddenly they blossom on the date differently because of the energy in front of them.
44:23
There's a Mitch Albam wrote a line about you know if the culture isn't serving you then you have to be brave enough to create your own culture. Mhm.
44:33
And in dating for so many people I you know I get all the complaints about dating these days.
44:38
You know it's superficial.
44:40
It's no one everyone's flaky.
44:42
No one goes on real dates. No one's trying.
44:44
No one's really committing.
44:46
No one wants a real relationship.
44:47
It's like, okay, so what you're describing to me is what you perceive to be a culture that's not working for you. Yeah.
44:54
But if that culture isn't serving you, then create your own culture that surrounds you. Mhm.
45:03
And and your culture can be powerful not for the world necessarily because in for that there needs to be a combined cultural shift. Yeah.
45:10
But in your micro life, in your micro problems and and opportunities, the culture you create will have an impact on the people around you. Yeah.
45:23
And it the same way, you know, I said if you go into a room at a party and you say, I hope this part is good.
45:31
Well, now you're a victim to what however this party is. Yeah.
45:33
You know, if everyone seems kind of closed off and mean and you know, there's clicky and it's like, "Oh god."
45:40
Then you go home and you say, "Oh my god, that party was so, you know, it was one of those horrible parties."
45:46
But if you go in and you say, "I'm going to at the very least be responsible for a part of this party.
45:54
Yes, I'm going to go in and I'm going to give the love and the energy and the and the and the compassion and the authenticity that I would love for people in this room to join me in giving. Some will, some won't.
46:05
And by the way, that's also good because it will help you find your crowd, right?
46:08
So you you find your crowd by being the thing you want to be, not by hoping that your crowd elicits it from you completely.
46:16
You found your crowd online by going out and being an energy that you wanted to be first and then that crowd noticed you. It's like a lighthouse.
46:23
All the ships start knowing where to come home because they see the, you know, they see the lighthouse.
46:29
That that for me is that's one of the most beautiful things about giving energy early on.
46:35
I see dating, you know, not just relationships, but I see people in dating these days, it's the game is who can try less, who can be cooler, who can be more indifferent, and and that's honestly not the way to do it.
46:47
That's certainly the way to attract someone of a lower frequency. I love that. Yeah. Right.
46:53
You can certainly attract someone who wants the game, who wants the who's got the demons that make them chase someone who's not into them, you know, and there are plenty of people with those demons.
47:03
But you don't want to be in a relationship with a person like that.
47:06
Cuz for sure, a person like that, the moment you stop playing hard to get and you turn around to meet them, they're not going to be interested in you anymore cuz their demons will tell them, "This person likes us now.
47:17
[laughter] They're not they this person's no longer called to us.
47:20
Yeah, they were only called to us as long as they didn't like us.
47:23
So, you can't so messed up.
47:25
Yeah, but it's, you know, it's that uh that crouch marks thing.
47:28
I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member.
47:32
That describes dating insecurity amongst people like that is I want to that person doesn't want me. They must be a catch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
47:40
And and so what we have to do is give when we give a little more energy in dating and say, you know what, this person who I've known for five minutes, maybe I'm not feeling much energy here, but I'm just going to give some energy. Mhm.
47:58
I'm going to give an amount of energy I'm willing to lose. [laughter] Right?
48:02
That's an a key way of looking at it.
48:04
What you don't do is you keep trying with someone who's not giving you equal energy back.
48:06
That that then becomes masochistic, right?
48:09
But giving an amount of energy you're willing to lose.
48:11
I always think about that in every interaction. That's so true. Yeah.
48:15
Give an amount you don't mind losing. Yeah.
48:17
It's like going into the casino and playing like roulette.
48:18
It's like, all right, I'm in Vegas.
48:20
I'll give like a hundred bucks and then I'm not spending anything else here in these casinos. That's it.
48:27
You know, for me, it's normally like 10 bucks cuz I just I am not a gambler.
48:30
But you just decide what am I happy to lose?
48:32
And it's the same with energy.
48:35
It's, you know, I'm dating right now.
48:37
I want to find someone amazing, someone beautiful.
48:39
I'm going to give to everyone I interact with an amount of energy I don't mind losing.
48:47
And some people I'm gonna I'm going to bring out the people who who now are willing to give it back cuz all of a sudden they they might be jolted out of their little coma that they've been in because they're disillusioned with dating and they feel like no one's trying.
49:00
And so they went into their shell, but they now they see you with a different level of warmth and playfulness and and and just positivity and they go, "Huh, who is this?
49:09
This makes me feel good."
49:11
And then they come out a little bit and all of a sudden you see who they are.
49:14
You wake them up a little bit and then there's a bunch of people you won't.
49:17
And that's okay cuz you were willing to lose that much energy. Yeah.
49:21
But what people do instead, they do a far more dangerous thing of being afraid of the rejection from people that they approach or talk to in the first 5 minutes.
49:31
God forbid I get rejected in the first 5 minutes, but then they'll meet someone where they have a bit of connection and chemistry, but who isn't trying, who isn't giving them equal energy, and they'll keep pouring energy into that person month after month after month when they're not getting the same in return. Yeah.
49:51
And they think that's safer than going out there and getting rejected by a new person. Yeah.
49:57
But actually being rejected by someone who doesn't even know you who who on an app, how much can someone really reject you anyway?
50:05
And we all know our experience.
50:08
We've all chosen people in life who on an app we might have swiped right past. Absolutely. Right.
50:13
So we know from our own personal experience that if we get rejected on an app, it doesn't even mean that person wouldn't like us in real life. Totally. Yeah.
50:19
But we're so afraid of that rejection.
50:22
That's mortal fear is that rejection.
50:24
And yet continuing to waste months or years on someone who's who's giving us unequal energy is something people happily do.
50:33
They spend that time like it's nothing and that's the really because it feels safe because it feels like there's something at least there's some connection. There's some comfort.
50:44
Well, there's a couple of things.
50:45
It's firstly it's comfortable, right? It's it's what I know.
50:47
doesn't mean I'm happiness and comfort are very different things. It's not happy. I'm not happy.
50:52
I'm not getting my needs met, but it's comfortable. Yeah. Right.
50:55
So, I'll stay in it for that reason.
50:58
It's the fear of I'll never find anyone again, which is a fallacy cuz you found this person.
51:03
You did it already, you know?
51:06
And by the way, this person's not so unique that they're the only person in the world that's going to find you attractive. Yeah. Right.
51:11
Like they're attracted to you cuz you're attractive. Yeah.
51:13
But that's the crazy thing, right?
51:14
We have this massive paradox between there's now unlimited choice more than ever.
51:20
You feel like you have way more choice than you had before, but then we have limitless fear to go with that that we may not find anyone ever again.
51:29
Like it's that weird thing, right?
51:29
Like it's the idea of like I I don't So I've never had to online date or app date.
51:33
I became a monk when I was 21 and then my wife's been the only person I've been with since I left.
51:39
So I the last big which is a really impressive age to become a monk by the way.
51:43
I feel like that's uniquely impressive is becoming a monk at 20.
51:48
Well I started at 14 so I had seven years of of being a single of runway to get there becoming a monk at 80. Yeah I'll take that. Yeah.
51:58
No I I think I did it because of having to having to figure out some of this stuff.
52:02
But but I the last time I went on a date was apart from my wife was about what like god know like 12 13 years ago.
52:10
So I never had to date from an app.
52:12
The closest thing we had was High Five.
52:13
Do you remember High Five? No.
52:15
High five was like an early Facebook where it'd show you 200 to 300 friends in your network. Got it.
52:20
And it was Facebook but it was most people most guys in their teens used it for dating.
52:25
But the idea of you you feel there's so much choice now like you're just always like you said you're just swiping away you're looking at profiles everything but at the same time you feel like you'll never find someone again.
52:40
What where's what's happening there?
52:41
What are you seeing there when you're speaking to people?
52:43
I think there's a it's a combination of things.
52:44
It's people aren't experiencing for for a lot of people they're not experiencing what they see as an endless ocean of choice.
52:51
What they're experiencing is an endless ocean of disappointment of constantly talking to people with it not going anywhere being ghosted talking to someone and they that person never actually takes them up on going on a date.
53:05
So it's like we're living a computer game version of dating but I'm not actually meeting up in real life or you know meeting someone seems to be going well for a few dates and all of a sudden they disappear and you know they're or they're not interested anymore. it fizzles out.
53:19
And so it's it's a lot of disappointment.
53:22
But but the ironic thing about that is that on the flip side, people experience that choice in a negative way.
53:29
So what they feel is the person I could be going I'm going on a date with has endless choice. Wow.
53:36
And and that brings out all of my insecurity because I feel like I'm never how can I possibly compete with what Bo Burnham says is everything all the time. Yeah.
53:50
I can't compete with that.
53:50
I can't compete with you having access to everyone in a 10 mile radius or more if you choose to have more.
54:00
That's something I I How do I possibly live up to that?
54:05
And that to me is at the root of so many people's lack of confidence, even their lack of authenticity when they go on a date because they're trying to be they stop trying to connect and they start trying to be something they think the other person wants them to be.
54:20
And now it's a departure from themselves.
54:24
Now to me the lesson here is the same as you know I one of the things I really enjoy about working with people in their love lives is that there is it's so transferable and universal to other domains.
54:36
So if you look at this this problem of we're afraid you know we can't live up to the choice that somebody else has.
54:43
That's actually true in business too.
54:46
It's true in content creation right?
54:48
Like I I've had it in the last couple of years.
54:51
I've had moments where I look at just how many creators there now are and just how much video content is pumped online every day that I I feel like I've overeaten and want to be sick. Yeah.
55:09
And I'm like it can get to a point where even though because in one sense being good at something creates confidence, right?
55:17
If you feel like you're a good partner and you're attractive and you have good qualities and so on, then you feel like a version of competence.
55:26
And the same is true in content creation.
55:27
I've been doing what I do for 15 years.
55:28
I feel very competent when it comes to speaking into a microphone, going on TV, going on stage, making videos, and yet there's still moments where I've had just this little feeling of like, do I need like does the does the world need another voice? Yeah.
55:46
Everyone is speaking all the time.
55:50
And I mean, this is a side note rant, but like I, you know, it's so funny.
55:52
I was watching there was like some thumbnails for mo for a major podcast and and this is no slant on it because I I understand what happens with this, but it was so funny because I was like there was one thumbnail that was like, you know, be kind to yourself and then the next one was um achieve through suffering.
56:13
[laughter] There's like another one that's like push past your limits and and and ignore the realistic and there's another one that's like motivation is BS and it was all the same podcast but it's like every next thumbnail is like a piece of wisdom that contradicts in some way the last piece but that I think is just I think we're all force-feeding ourselves content at the moment at a rate that's just untenable.
56:38
But when you're a creator in an environment like that, you can get to a point where you're like, "Does the world need me?" Yeah. Yeah.
56:45
Like, if I just stop talking, does it matter?
56:47
Everyone else is saying it anyway in a thousand different ways.
56:49
And what I tell myself is there is someone that uniquely vibes with my personality and the way I deliver the message.
57:06
deliver the message. I need I it's not about me worrying how do I grab that person's audience or [clears throat] how can I appeal to everybody it's just about me saying you know what William Zinser there's a wonderful book for life and writing someone once said to me every book on writing is a book on life but there's a William Zinser wrote one
57:28
of the seminal books on writing which I forget [snorts] I think it's on how to great writing or something if you look up William Zinsa people will find it But um he says you know when you go to he said you may be a aspiring travel writer who when you think about going to Tokyo to write about Tokyo you think but thousands of travel writers have been to Tokyo and written about Tokyo. What do I
57:53
What do I possibly have to add?
58:00
And he says but the world hasn't heard what your lens on Tokyo is.
58:03
M the world hasn't heard your take on Tokyo and that might contain some idea or way of looking at things that other people haven't actually done or that you may say the same thing but you may say it fresh. Yeah.
58:23
And and so I tell myself that when I'm creating content that it's not about appealing to everyone.
58:28
really is about saying I my take on this is interesting for its own sake to the people that vibe with me.
58:37
The same is true in dating. Mhm.
58:40
That I see that you there is a specific audience for you and it doesn't have to be 99. 999% of people. Yeah.
58:50
If you're looking for a serious relationship, it just has to be one. Yeah. Those are amazing odds. That's a great analogy. I love that.
58:58
that may that it resonates.
58:58
You're so right on both levels and and you're spot on.
59:03
It's it's weird that in dating too, we want to be attractive to everyone.
59:08
We want everyone to feel just as a content creator.
59:09
You want everyone to feel a certain way about you.
59:10
And so I think that's such a great way of looking at it.
59:14
And yeah, I love the idea the the writer you mentioned around the voice on Tokyo.
59:18
Yeah, I always feel that.
59:18
I'm like, we need more faces and more voices and because there are just so many people that you can connect to that I can't connect to and vice versa with everyone else.
59:28
And I see that all the time that whatever and whatever field you're in too, right?
59:33
Like I always say like there's enough space for the best athletes, the best actors.
59:37
It's like there's so many actors, there's so many actresses, but there's always a new person that kind of makes it in and wins the upcoming actor award actress award because you kind of want to discover and you also want the idea of discovery and and I think people almost make it like I think we've always made it about like, oh, who's your top three? Who's your top five?
59:57
And the people that actually are watching and listening, they don't see it in a hierarchy.
1:00:01
They just are like, oh, I listen to this group of people.
1:00:05
That's usually how people think about it.
1:00:07
I feel like even if someone asked me like who are your favorite authors, I don't I don't have a categoric like number one author.
1:00:13
There's a group of authors that I love reading from and I feel like that's how people and in relationships obviously like you're saying it's it's a much smaller pool, but you having that intention is going to be much more clear.
1:00:25
But tell me about your take on changing people.
1:00:27
Uh I I I wonder how much you get people saying, "I'm with someone. I met someone. They have potential.
1:00:33
I think I can change them."
1:00:35
There's a quote from I think it's Jacob M.
1:00:37
Broad where he says, "Consider how hard it is to change yourself and you'll understand how foolish it is to think you can change somebody else."
1:00:45
And that people should really let that sink in. Yeah.
1:00:52
Because at in the beginning of January, 60 70 80% of the world decides they want to get fit and healthy. Yeah.
1:01:04
How what percentage of those people get fit and healthy? Yeah.
1:01:08
Those are people who want to change.
1:01:11
They didn't make that resolution for nothing.
1:01:12
They made it because they want that. Yeah.
1:01:16
It's not someone saying to them, "You should really lose weight."
1:01:17
And them going, "I'm fine."
1:01:18
That's someone saying to themselves, "I should really lose weight."
1:01:23
And they still can't do it.
1:01:26
Now [clears throat] consider being in a relationship with someone who's not even admitting that they need to change and thinking that they're going to change.
1:01:42
It's it would it would be on your heart of behalf and I'm not saying it would be wrong to trust someone when they say this, but it's still speculative if you or I in a relationship and you say, "Matt, I'm going to change."
1:01:57
That's still speculative for me. [laughter] You might. It might be too hard. Yeah.
1:02:03
But it might be worth me staying if we have a lot of love between us and you're saying I'm going to change because I say you know what that's if if you're really committed to this then then game on let's do this. Yeah.
1:02:19
But in order for that to happen you have to first acknowledge there's something to be changed and then show desire to change it and frankly to have any real credibility show a plan for changing it. Yeah.
1:02:31
when two people are in a relationship or two people break up and a woman comes to me and says, you know, um, two weeks later he came back and he said he'll never, you know, he he wants me back and whatever and he's not going to hurt me again.
1:02:46
I always say an important question to ask is why would it be different this time?
1:02:53
Not from an emotion, not from a like charged place, but a real curiosity.
1:02:54
I get that you're telling me, yeah, has that person even thought about that part, right?
1:03:01
like 2 weeks later, which is a suspect time anyway, right?
1:03:03
Because this is like you're very much in the panic stage of I'll say anything to get you back right now. That's not considered.
1:03:12
But fine, this is where we are.
1:03:14
We're two weeks out from our breakup.
1:03:16
You're telling me you want me back and you'll never hurt me again.
1:03:20
I get you want me back, but what is it that's that's different this time?
1:03:28
That's what I need to understand to feel safe. Mhm.
1:03:31
to go down this road with you again.
1:03:34
M and and so I think people can and do change otherwise you and me would be out of a job. Mhm.
1:03:42
But change if you are not the author of your own change then the idea that your partner is somehow going to will you Yeah. to change.
1:03:54
You know, it's like telling your partner, "I want you to do therapy." Yeah. Them going, "Okay." Yeah. Exactly. I'll go.
1:04:05
And that's the reason most people do go, right?
1:04:08
I find at least from from people that I speak to or work with, like you hear that so often that the number one reason people do go to therapy is because their partner kind of forced them into it and they kind of agreed to it.
1:04:16
And that's and that's a problem because you're hoping that they will see the value in it once they get there and they might but it's you someone needs to have some skin in the game. Yeah.
1:04:30
And and so I just think that here's what I will say because there are so many people in relationships or in situationships, if you want to call them that, that are convincing themselves, they're conning themselves that somebody else is one day going to be different.
1:04:52
And at that point, you have to say to yourself, on what basis have you decided this?
1:05:01
What is it that this idea that they are that some grand change is imminent? What is that based on? Yeah.
1:05:09
Is it based on them having said to you, "Hey, I know that in these last few months or or years or whatever, this has been a big problem in this relationship, and I know that's because of me." Mhm.
1:05:23
And this is something I am committed to changing. Yeah. Have they said that?
1:05:27
[laughter] Cuz if they haven't Yeah.
1:05:31
I have to ask where is the logic here underpinning your argument that they're one day going to change. Yeah.
1:05:40
Oh, this isn't about them that they're going to change or that they've even expressed a desire or a willingness or a commitment to change.
1:05:46
This is about your demons calling the shots. Yeah.
1:05:52
This is about your fear of losing someone because maybe they don't want to change.
1:06:00
But what what's really happening is you don't want to lose someone.
1:06:03
You don't want to be on your own again.
1:06:05
You don't want to take the risk that there's something else out there where you can get your needs met on a higher level.
1:06:14
And then it becomes about exploring yourself and and saying, "Well, this person's been this way for years and I've complained about it for years."
1:06:24
So, is is this still about them?
1:06:24
Can I really keep saying this is about them? That's so powerful, man.
1:06:30
That that that really like hit a chord.
1:06:32
And I hope that everyone who's listening and watching, you know, that drops and sinks in for them as well because what you just said there, I think that's the dilemma that most people are in. Do I stay or do I go? Yeah.
1:06:45
And you've just answered like, you know, that's how you know like that's it's clear.
1:06:49
You know, I I sometimes look at videos of of myself from years ago and I cringe cuz I [laughter] I I'm like I you know, it's not what I'm saying might be factually right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:07:02
But the way I'm saying it, I I was once um It's like looking at old hairstyles.
1:07:06
It's the same [laughter] thing.
1:07:06
It's like looking at oldfashioned sense, old I thought that looked good. Yeah. Yeah.
1:07:11
I thought that Yeah, I was in Beverly Hills when I first got to LA.
1:07:14
I was about 25 and and I was making a video in front of the Beverly Hills sign.
1:07:19
I was like, I'm going to get the Beverly Hills sign in the background.
1:07:22
And and and it was a video about getting over heartbreak, right?
1:07:27
And I think it was like the three tips for getting over heartbreak, right?
1:07:31
Which, by the way, as soon as you say three tips for getting over heartbreak, you already don't understand [laughter] because anyone who's deep in heartbreak is not coming to you going, "What are your tips?" Yeah.
1:07:44
[laughter] They're going, "Save me from this existential doom." Yeah.
1:07:53
I am in where life doesn't feel worth living right now, you know.
1:07:56
And I was making this video and at the end of the video a guy came over.
1:08:01
It's like a three four minute video because of course you can sum up how to get over deep deep [laughter] loss in 3 minutes.
1:08:07
He came over and uh he said to me, "You've never been heartbroken, have you?"
1:08:15
Someone was just watching just he listened to the whole I didn't know he was listening, but he was like in earshot the whole time and he was like, "You've never been heartbroken, have you?"
1:08:23
Now 25year-old know it all me.
1:08:23
I was like in my head because out loud I went, "No, I have." And yeah, I I have. Yeah.
1:08:32
And and I like sort of shuffled on in my head.
1:08:35
I went, "Who do you think you are?
1:08:37
Of course, I've like what does this guy know?"
1:08:40
Like, "Oh, you know much more than me or what?" He was right.
1:08:45
I had never been truly I'd had time.
1:08:45
I'd had things that like hurt me. Yeah. Sure.
1:08:52
I'd never been like crushed. Yeah.
1:08:56
And having had that experience in my life now the video I make is very different.
1:09:04
[laughter] How I talk about that is extremely different. Yeah.
1:09:09
And the reason I say that is because I am aware that these things we're talking about here, it's very easy from a distance to say to people, this person hasn't changed in a long time.
1:09:25
What makes you think they're going to change now?
1:09:26
And why are you still there? Yeah.
1:09:29
And the why you're still there is because this stuff is so hard. Change is so hard.
1:09:37
leaving a situation so hard.
1:09:41
It's doing changing anything is hard.
1:09:45
Like this is one of the things that I sort of one of my gripes I suppose sometimes with some of the self-development rhetoric is that it makes things sound so much easier than they are and it sort of it it trivializes what are really difficult things.
1:10:02
M you know most people if they could just turn off their depression or their anxiety if there was just a switch where they could go they would do it. Yeah.
1:10:13
And and it's a terrible thing to feel.
1:10:16
So the fact that they are feeling it must mean it's very difficult for them to not feel that. Yeah.
1:10:24
And the same is true of a relationship.
1:10:26
If someone has stayed in an unhappy situation for a long time, that must mean it is incredibly difficult for them internally to make peace with the idea of leaving.
1:10:40
And and what's happening, of course, is in this moment where it's evident to all of their friends and family that they should leave and that they should never look back, their abandonment issue that's been around their whole life is screaming at them. Yeah.
1:10:59
Screaming using any tactic it can to get them to stay.
1:11:04
And when they were in the relationship, the way the tactic it used maybe was to go into people pleaser mode.
1:11:12
And even though this person is not treating me right, I'm going to do anything I can to make them happy.
1:11:15
Make every compromise, make every sacrifice, bend over backwards, subjugate my own needs to try and serve you all all in order so that I can keep you. Yeah.
1:11:29
And then at a point where you get so unhappy and you say, "Oh my god, this person's terrible.
1:11:34
I've had to lose myself in this relationship to make them happy. I'm going to leave.
1:11:38
Just at the point of leaving, just as your friends are like, "Thank the Lord, they did it. They left."
1:11:49
You go home that night and that abandonment demon realizes a different tactic has to be played.
1:11:56
So, it says, "Maybe they weren't so bad.
1:12:03
Maybe like we're asking for too much.
1:12:07
Maybe like, you know, they did have really great qualities, didn't they?
1:12:09
I mean, they were they were loyal and [clears throat] they they're a lovely person a lot of the time and they're this and they're that and that that voice starts using a different tactic with you because the only thing that voice wants is don't be abandoned. Yeah.
1:12:27
And it'll do anything in its power to reach that goal.
1:12:29
It will ruin your life to achieve that goal because it only has one goal.
1:12:34
And the goal is don't is not make you happy.
1:12:36
The goal is make sure you're not abandoned. Yeah.
1:12:41
And and so this stuff is so difficult and it's why people should that in those moments if anyone is listening to this and and if you're listening to this and you're in an unhappy situation, I get it.
1:12:55
I get how hard it is and taking the time to really say one of the things that can help is to say this this demon would come out with another person too.
1:13:11
So it's not really about this person to that extent at least I can depersonalize this and go it's not really about losing this person it's just about losing a person. Yeah.
1:13:21
and and I'll have I can carry this demon with me to the next one and the next one and the next one.
1:13:27
So, but I I I think people people should be compassionate to themselves, but if they're struggling to end something difficult, but extend that compassion to your future self. Yeah.
1:13:45
Because extend truly extending your compassion to your future self is doing something that gives him or her a shot at a happy and a peaceful life.
1:13:54
And if you know that the all the evidence has told you you can it it does not reside here then compassion towards your future self is leaving even if for your present self it's deeply painful. That's so powerful man. That's that's amazing.
1:14:10
amazing. I'm so glad that you brought it to that and your reference to just how people could switch it off that I remember when I read that statistic the first time that we have 60 to 80,000 thoughts per day but 80% of them are repeated and that's that was the one that really hit me and I was like yeah that's what's happening like if
1:14:29
someone's saying that to themselves what you just said about abandonment the idea of if someone keeps repeating to themselves without even knowing subconsciously don't be abandoned don't be abandoned don't be abandoned don't be abandoned and that's just repeating over and over again when you hear the advice of like, "Oh yeah, you should be able to leave or walk away." Of course, it's
1:14:44
Of course, it's hard because that's one thought amongst 60,000 thoughts or whatever it is.
1:14:48
And so it's it's it's a complete rewiring that needs to take place.
1:14:55
And it's not just about cutting the wire, right?
1:14:56
Like we're so we're just, oh yeah, I'm just going to cut that thought out.
1:14:59
And it doesn't work like that.
1:15:01
It's completely shifting it around.
1:15:02
And so I love what you just said that, you know, I'm so glad that you took this conversation there because without that actually it's not even possible to rewire because you're just trying to cut a wire that can't be cut, it's not possible to cut it.
1:15:17
And even if you cut it in the form of ending this relationship, the issue is still there and you'll latch on to the first person you find on the way out. Exactly. Exactly.
1:15:24
Matthew, we've talked about so many things today.
1:15:26
Uh I want to ask you, is there anything that I haven't asked you to share before we dive into the final five?
1:15:31
Is there something that's in your heart, in your mind that's intuitively there for you that you feel like you need to share with everyone today before we dive into the final five?
1:15:40
I suppose um if I may, there's a there's I've I've been working on something recently that I know these subjects can, as you said, seem very abstract.
1:15:52
Even when you talk about when we talk about confidence, it's a very hard thing to latch on to and figure out, well, okay, I want to be more confident.
1:16:01
I want to be confident enough to leave or I'm single, but I want to be confident enough to approach that person or to it.
1:16:08
It's a very hard thing to grab on to.
1:16:10
What does it mean to be more confident? How do I actually do it?
1:16:12
I put together something that I said if in 30 days I wanted to if I had a gun to my head and it was you have to improve someone's confidence in 30 days what would you do?
1:16:28
I said well maybe I'd create five challenges that were specifically engineered around the psychology of confidence.
1:16:37
And my theory with this is if you can give yourself a genuine me not like you know completely transform everything about your confidence in 30 days cuz we all know that's that's BS.
1:16:48
No one's the world is full of these kind of hyperbolic promises.
1:16:54
But if people can I I believe that when you can create like a crack in the doorway and that shows you what's possible that momentum leads to something bigger and bigger and bigger.
1:17:07
I don't think someone starts by saying I know I can be a millionaire.
1:17:09
I think someone starts by saying I made two grand this month.
1:17:14
I bet I could make two and a half next month and then making two and a half and go I think I see a way to four.
1:17:20
You know that to me is how belief is built. It's incremental. Mhm.
1:17:24
And so I said, if I can get people a 30-day significant incremental shift in their confidence, then whatever goals they have this year, that will give the moment the momentum to charge into those goals differently. Yeah.
1:17:38
Um, so I put together a place where I've got there's an initial kickoff call that I'm doing with everybody where I'm going to take them through those five I love that challenges.
1:17:47
We're going to do them, go through them together as a blueprint for 30 days.
1:17:51
And then the timer of the 30 days is going to start.
1:17:52
And everyone's goal as a community is to do those five challenges over those 30 days. And that's awesome.
1:17:59
Literally engineered them based on the psychology of what I've learned about confidence over 15 years.
1:18:03
Um, if I may, I would say I'd love that.
1:18:08
Where can people sign up?
1:18:09
Yeah, it if you go to mhchchallenge.
1:18:09
com, that's my initials, mhchallenge. com.
1:18:18
there's a place where people can sign up and they can join that challenge.
1:18:19
But we already ran it once and it was the the results have been really beautiful because everyone's writing in and saying, "I just ticked off this challenge. I just did this. I just did this."
1:18:31
So, it's been a very unifying thing for people and we're about to do we're running it again now.
1:18:36
So, people can come and join at mhch challenge. com. I love it.
1:18:39
Everyone who's listening and watching, make sure you don't sign up at mhchallenge. com.
1:18:41
I don't want you to miss out on that.
1:18:43
Sounds that sounds awesome.
1:18:45
And it's so much more fun doing it with other people and taking it through these five challenges.
1:18:49
And and we know our life changes by by those practical things. Thousand%. Thousand%.
1:18:54
Like I've I've never changed without being I've always said to everyone's three things.
1:19:00
Coaching, consistency, and community.
1:19:03
Like those are the three things.
1:19:04
If you want to change any area of your life, if you don't have coaching, you don't have consistency, and you don't have community, you're not going to change it.
1:19:10
And so that's exactly what this is. So mhch challenge.
1:19:13
com is the place to sign up everyone.
1:19:15
And uh uh Matthew, I've got the final five for you.
1:19:17
So these have to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum. A sentence.
1:19:21
I don't know what the official definition is, but I make it seven to 10 words.
1:19:26
So one word or one sentence for one word or one sentence for each of these. Okay.
1:19:29
So Matthew Hassi, these are your final five.
1:19:31
The first question is, what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received?
1:19:39
Find someone who loves you more than you love them. Ah, yeah. Okay. Great. Good. Good answer. All right. Question number two.
1:19:47
What's the best relationship advice you've ever heard, received, or given?
1:19:53
Make a list of the things that are truly important for you to find in a partner and then be that list. Love that. Great advice. All right. Question number three.
1:20:06
Uh, one word to one sentence again define love for you.
1:20:12
Generous interpretation of other people's behavior.
1:20:15
[laughter] That's a great definition.
1:20:18
I was not expecting that. That's awesome.
1:20:20
That is a great definition.
1:20:22
All right, question number four.
1:20:24
Uh, what is how would you describe your current purpose in life?
1:20:30
to make people feel less alone in their suffering. That's beautiful. I love that, man.
1:20:39
That's that's really special.
1:20:39
All right, question number five.
1:20:40
If you could create one law in the world that everyone had to follow, what would it be?
1:20:47
I don't think I can beat the golden rule.
1:20:50
I the the confusion, you know, uh you know, do to other people or treat other people how you would want to be treated.
1:21:01
I I don't think I can beious on that. [laughter] I love it. I love it.
1:21:05
Matthew, I see everyone, please, please, please go follow Matthew on all social media platforms, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook.
1:21:14
Uh go and check out the mhch challenge. com.
1:21:16
Don't forget that you're getting uh five challenges in confidence with Matthew for that as well.
1:21:21
So, make sure you go and check out mhchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchallenge.
1:21:23
com and please tag me on me and Matthew on Instagram, on Twitter, on any platform that you use with your biggest takeaways from this episode. We want to see them.
1:21:33
You know that I love sharing those insights and leave a review as well with your big takeaway from Matthew's episode.
1:21:39
Matthew, thank you so much for doing this.
1:21:41
I hope this is the first of many that we get to do this for. I do too. Yeah.
1:21:46
And can I say it's been it's been an unbelievable pleasure to do this and you are you're incredible at what you do and the the way you bring yourself even to an interview like this is people don't realize the level of pro in the way you interview the way you listen the way you
1:22:06
like I sat here learning about listening from watching you listen and that it's exactly what we talked about in a relationship right you see something in somebody else that's that they're doing really well and you go, "Wow, I want to I want to be as good a listener as Jay is right now." Um, and and to watch you,
1:22:20
Um, and and to watch you, you know, we have mutual friends, but to watch what you have done over the last few years is a is a truly extraordinary thing to to behold.
1:22:33
I know what kind of resourcefulness and initiative and proactiveness it must have taken for you to build this thing that you've built which is just extraordinary and um you know I I don't I'm sure you hear it many many times a day but it is you know from one creator to another I look at it and it is it's something very special what you've done so congratulations Well, thank you, man. I appreciate that. That's very kind.
1:23:06
I really that means a lot to me and I felt how genuine that was.
1:23:10
And uh well, I the way reason why I was listening so well is because you were speaking so well.
1:23:14
So, I was like, "This is easy to listen to."
1:23:15
I was just sitting there going, "This is great."
1:23:19
Like I'm like, "This people are going to love this and this can make sense."
1:23:20
And so, it was easy to listen to you.
1:23:22
Uh and and I think that's part of a relationship.
1:23:26
You want to you want to sit down with someone that that makes it easy to enjoy the conversation.
1:23:31
You enjoy the conversation that you're with. So, no.
1:23:32
and and the feelings mutual, man.
1:23:34
Like I remember, you know, I've been watching you for years and years and years and to see what you've created and the evolution of your work and just also just what I what I really appreciate is the dedication to what you do and who you help and how you help them.
1:23:48
I think it's so, you know, I think we live in a world where it's so easy to like, you know, now I'm a crypto influencer and now I'm a, you know, an NFT influencer, whatever it is.
1:23:57
And it's like to dedicate your life to to something that is big enough to be dedicated to, but to to just be see you so focused and even in today's conversation, I can see that, you know, it's like you can tell when someone's really well read in an area and has really thought about it from like pop culture to history to, you know, that I I love that.
1:24:17
I love meeting someone who's immersed in their in their space and you you demonstrate that beautifully. So, thank you. I'll remember that. Thank you for that. Yeah.
1:24:25
Thank you for dedicating your life to and especially, you know, helping people suffer less in their relationships, which can be such a great source of suffering. So, thank you, man. Appreciate you, man.
1:24:35
If you want even more videos just like this one, make sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here.
1:24:39
I'm also [music] excited to let you know that you can now get my book, Think Like a Monk, from think like a monkbook. com.
1:24:49
Check below in the description to make sure you order