we are not far from the point in time in which your deceased mother heaven forbid your deceased child can be re-embodied that you could go back to their sixth birthday and do something new with them we start to get to some of the really tricky ethics here a metaverse where
people can feel as if they are actually interacting in the real world this 30-year-old term this Century old idea was actually starting to have the critical mass of Technologies required to make it real we don't Outlaw fire we train firemen I'm optimistic that that can start to make a difference otherwise
we know the outcome and that is that this education becomes not just more expensive but as such more restrictive to those who can never benefit from it well hello everyone it's Jim oan with yet another infinite Loops I cannot tell you how excited I am to have today's guest on today's guest is Matthew ball
whose work I admire and think is inspirational actually for those of us who think that there are huge changes going on because of all of the various Revolutions in technology Matthew is the author of the metaverse building the spatial internet with a full fully revised and updated version dropping on
July 23rd of this year Matthew welcome happy to be here thanks for having me I resonated so deeply with your work because we we have a a series that we're doing here at infinite Luke's called The Great reshuffle and while it didn't specifically focus on the metaverse the metaverse is a huge part of what we see
transforming uh the world and Society and business models and literally everything and and your work on the metaverse was something like I I've been dreaming of a metaverse I didn't call it that since I was like in my 20s I keep journals and I was going through them because we're creating a Sim JY uh which
will definitely not be a level five digital twin but it's really just for fun but if you wouldn't mind uh walk us through kind of what what what got you you to say oh my God I think really this is going to be the next big thing that is literally going to transform everything sure so that's a great place
to start and there's really three different segmented answers to that the first is to actually take a look at the taxonomy there are some listeners or lost listeners who are rolling their eyes in their head the metaverse we've heard that for three years now it's a buzzword arguably one of the biggest
fastest brightest burning buzzword of some time and in fact it had appeared twice before we saw it actually in the 90s when the term was coined we saw that Midway through the 2000s primarily around Second Life the Advent of Google Keyhole or now Google Earth and then it came when meta changed its name and
there are some who are exhausted who believe it hasn't come to fruition he what's important to recognize is that the term is in many ways if not always a distraction at this point when you go to the late 80s the early 90s nearly all of the terms that we use today to describe any sort of
simulacra environment comes from science fiction or small research Labs of that era and they reflect this rash of terminology of coinage as those at the Vanguard of Technology sought to find a way to describe what we might someday do if not someday soon and that reflected the advance of guies or graphical user
interfaces the advance of the internet and really the Forefront of 3D simulation in video games really started to take off 3D in '92 93 94 95 and so whether you're talking about artificial reality or virtual reality both of which come from the late 80s in science fiction or cyberspace The Matrix earlier
in the 80s the metaverse from 92 or spatial Computing the term that Apple recently took on comes from 9293 that was all based then on what people believed we were soon going to do and now 30 years later those terms are being repurposed read adopted becoming to some extent part of corporate
propaganda terminology brain distinction from one another and while there are small differences between what each of them mean they primarily reflect the individual philosophies perspectives and products of those companies which is to say spatial Computing Apple's term the metaverse chosen by in
Microsoft epic Facebook differently on the margin mostly talking about the same things expressed differently through culture so that's where I would start to say we're looking at these 30y old terms that have started to diverge primarily through propagation through private
entities but all of them are efforts to vaguely describe something that was starting to manifest the second point that I would make is those terms are not actually 30 years old well they are as terms but the ideas are a century old they spend early work in research Labs again science fiction many of the early
Investments of iers including Marvin Minsky in AI even Alan Turing who first sought to apply artificial intelligence Computing simulation into 3D again simil Acra worlds and we have been on this multi-decade and Century long advance to bring them to fruition and so for that very same reason we kind of see those
theories those ideologies disconnect from the way we see the world today because the world has changed since those early ideas came to frish so those are the first two points that I would make the third is really the acute and the interesting one which is the why now and in your question why for
me kind of like you I've been obsessed with fictional worlds virtual worlds of digital advancement for many decades but it was really my personal experience in 2018 and 2019 spending a lot of time inside of Roblox spending a lot of time learning the Unreal Engine playing fortnite that I had come to this
conclusion that this 30-year-old term this Century old idea was actually starting to have the critical mass of Technologies required to make it real real in the truest sense the word now of course since then it has become a very different scenario we suffered from scope Creep from duration creep you know
when Mark Zuckerberg renamed his company he was pretty clear saying he believed it was going to start emerging in 5 to 10 years but of course when the seventh largest company in the world the youngest out of the top 25 changes their name the expectation is not that it will
slowly emerge 5 to 10 years out we start to say where is it now where's the product where's the revenue where's the return the narrative very quickly shifted and to some extent I played a part in that to now and that was never exactly how it was going to happen the internet didn't happen that way mobile
didn't happen that way and you know a few years later we're seeing progress in some areas not progress in other areas but I would say that most of the underlying factors number of virtual worlds produced each year the number of people in them the amount of time spent in their cultural import more
importantly the broadening deployment of those Technologies out side of leisure into healthc care and Automotive construction continues to expand in 2020 for example the US performed its first ever live patient surgery using a mixed reality device we're at more than 600 cents of which 400 were completed in
last year and so I'm really focusing the ways in which those were starting to coales a few years ago and in the years to come do we start to see that combinatorial compounding effect that will EV eventually start to realize what people have imagined for decades yeah I
resonate with so many things that you've just said sometimes we are very guilty of uh becoming label thinkers and when a label gets slapped on something and then the various companies who are trying to grab that little piece of neural real estate will start their various propaganda and you know they all get
tossed into the big bucket label of metaverse and so I definitely uh agree with you on the idea that there's a great quote it it it is a mistake to Tred to understand new things too quickly we often uh don't understand them and and kill the baby in the Cradle so I I absolutely agree that this is a
directional movement and it's it's not some Quantum Leap that suddenly we're going to have ready player one uh but I also find it interesting to have those science fiction North Stars because that's that's how if if we can't create something if we can't imagine it and we first must imagine it and I was a
huge fan of all of those early uh kind of cyberpunk uh science fiction and and then actual as well and and then uh I'm also really involved in uh AI uh through uh the investment arm of OI Ventures and and you have a really interesting uh look at AI in the new version of your
book I wouldn't mind if or I would love it if you'd be willing to walk through the impact that the AI getting to the level it's at right now which was in many quarters unexpected at least the speed with which it has gotten there and how that plays into the overall concept of the metaverse so it's a great
question and I think there are a few different ways to unpack it often it is understood to be this arguably in contrast growth opportunity for Tech and I won't tell you that it's not diverting resources away from XR and VR and Virtual Worlds that's often the case I won't tell you that it isn't narratively changing
meta's future even though Mark Zuckerberg will be quite clear that their priority remains around the metaverse and he'll say something that I agree with which is these are not Divergent they're not perpendicular they're not a distraction but instead the advancements in AI are essential to
building a virtual parallel reality or indeed a version of the real world itself that uses AI to help run the real world as we experience it so let me bring that down there's kind of three different categories if we want to simplify it into how AI is going to help us produce the metaverse or synthetic
reality there's multiple different specific implementations of course or Myriad but there are three that we can use simply number one is that the hardware level anyone who has used a Vision Pro or a hmd that is a head-mounted display will easily and quickly enumerate the
challenges or their personal hesitations right it's too heavy it gets too hot it's not comfortable the graphics look crummy the battery life is frustrating the resolution is poor I'm nauseated most of those are indeed Hardware problems and we actually have a tremendous amount of science that
proves that for example when you watch a television most of us are watching a 1 to 2K display and it's running at 24 frames per second that's how we watch television if you've watched on YouTube or you saw The Hobbit movies it was at 60 frames per second we found that e well when you watch a game or you play
a video game we typically Aspire for 60 frames per second and that's because you have this connection between brain and Screen input output and the Delta the gap between those frame rates tends to drive disassociation now that's when you're 10 feet from your television screen and
using your thumbs as inputs when you move that screen to an inch from your face and that input is not your thumb but actual movement of your head that's triggering the vestibular sense right your inner ear the requirement is really really thin because all of a sudden your brain knows and feels change that isn't
being represented in the world around you and so we generally believe and see in Labs that you need between 120 and as much as 240 frames per second in order to fully avoid that nausea which by the way h to affect women twice as frequently as men and so just to diversify not to say just grow
penetration we need greater advances to reach half of the population or just over half now I also mentioned that a television is typically 1 to 2K well if you've ever noticed and you know Jim you and I can do it right now your computer monitor is probably 720 or 1K and if you bring your nose all the way up to the
screen you start to see the pixel you see those black borders and that's because resolution is a question of how many pixels are there horizontally it's not actually a question of how sharp does it look and that's a reflection of how close you are to the screen among some other variables right what's the
size between each pixel for example that varies quite a bit when you bring the screen all the way up to your face you need a much much higher resolution otherwise it looks like you're looking through a screen door quite truly and so we need We Believe between 8,000 pixels and 16,000
pixels so what does this mean well when you're watching a video game on a television screen you are looking at 60 frames per second running it and they're rendering in 1K or 2K if you want to up the resolution from 1K to 8K or 16k that's 8 to 16 times as many pixels the computer has to generate generate and then if you
want to say instead of generating them 60 times a second we want to do 120 or 240 times a second you're talking about a Forex additional increase and so this is where we start to talk I'm simplifying a whole bunch of other things right the more pixels the more work the more heat the more pixels
the more work the more battery you're using the more of all of these things the heavier the devices but just to simplify down to computation really really hard and so when you're taking a look at hmds I use this quote where Mark Zuckerberg says it's the most difficult technological problem of our time
because the number of different points of optimization are extraordinary then you said you want this device to look at the world around you you want it to preempt what you think you don't want to be wearing controllers on these glasses if you're to take them outside you're walking down the street this is a
longwinded way of saying to start to solve the literal Hardware problems that we face of nausea of rendering of size significant advancements in AI are going to be required and so we already actually start to see that now when you take a look at your phone and I promise it's a
long-winded answer but it's it's kind of important because it explains that answer of why people think these devices aren't getting better you know our iPhones have gotten much much thinner over the years and yet that we still have this bump for our lens and that's because we're pretty good at making
transistors smaller or putting computer power into the smaller SI or the same size of a computer chip but the only way to have better images is to let more light in and that's either from larger lenses or more time in the exposure and so we Face a very true physical reality there and yet even
though your lens hasn't gotten bigger sometimes we add two or three to your iPhone over the years the photos have gotten much better and the answer is AI none of your photos are really real there was this debate on Forbes as to whether or not they're going to use AI to upscale photos and they use this
picture of Sam ultman right they've got a blurry Sam ultman and then they've got a shark Sam ultman and they say the latter one we ran through an upscaler and I wonder how many people realize that when they go to see anyone right I take a picture of you right now Jim the photo that I'm looking at used AI a
neural network on my pixel or on your iPhone to upscale that image it's not just figuring out when you're smiling when your eyes are closed it's not just using its recognition of when humans look good it's taking a look at everything in the image and taking a bunch of images around it to better
understand context and then stitching that together all of these Technologies are now being used to actually produce experiences that are beyond the pure physics the device is capable of and so that first area is we are using AI to start to exceed what's possible there are some other areas where meta will
talk about you know the use of neural interfaces Mark very recently started talking about using new types of bands it's called electromyography that basically work like Luke Skywalker's hand was after it was cut off and it's reading electrical signals across your skeletal muscles to
then pick up and interpret not track what you're doing but to know what your brain says you should be doing and therefore generate it into Real Time by substituting and that's using not just AI but personal training you now can remove Hardware in the device that today is more cameras more space more heat
more cost more battery draw and so that's this first area is we start to talk about the use of AI to actually produce the devices that we think we want and dream of but are actually either perhaps never possible or certainly not possible on a short time or I'll pause there before we get to the
second two the example of the camera in your phone is one that I use often with people who uh are interested in AI but haven't really done a deep dive and many times they uh Express fears of AI and and one of the first things I say to them is have you taken a photo with your
smartphone today and most of people say yeah and I say you just use AI today and one of the things that amazed me was like the number of people who just did not comprehend that at all the fact that we are already using AI procedures AI models in a variety of things that are already very commonplace like our
smartphones the thing about AI that fascinates me is the uh what you you referenced it the you know one of my favorite uh uh physicists is David Deutsch and one of his quotes is um if it doesn't violate the laws of physics it's true and you've said something that I really uh find fascinating that
involves ai ai can and change uh the laws of physics in in a way that the real laws of physics can't it can't be modified or changed talk a little bit about that as you go on to your second and third points yeah I I mean look in some ways actually just just the examples that I provided are some of the
more primitive ones that we're using right in the in the interactive space we often talk about latency and latency is bound by the speed of light right the amount of the time that it takes for my device to send you data and to get it back or that to a remote data center or least of all a friend of mine in Japan
is bound by the speed of light not only is it Bound by the speed of light it is bound by the physical properties of the transmission medium that is sharing that and so we talk for example about Fiber Optic Cables I'll tell you the sad thing about fiber optic cable the silica glass
slows down the transmission speed by about a third 40% it doesn't slow down light of course but what it does is it has slight reflection that means that light going through the silica glass is bending ever so slightly so that it zigzagging thereby elongating the distance between two points resulting in
a 40% elongation of the transmission time that is not just a question of you and I you know several States apart it's not just about you and I talking to our colleagues in Asia it's a literal reality of every query that we make to a remote Data Center and it becomes super relevant when you come down to questions
like I'm wearing AR glasses and I've tilted my head just slightly and now my device needs to reprocess the world around me and have that aligned to the human sense of information and speed and be relevant and so you start to ask this literal question a device on your face cannot store enough information in
advance to understand everything it sees around you and that device cannot relay all of that information to a remote data center that process it IND processes it indiscriminately and then relays it back to you fast enough can't do it right so you have two problems can't do it
locally can't really do it remotely well the solution for AI there is to learn enough about you and to also be capable of understanding the context of what you're seeking to do the context of the environment around you to start to split the difference right to start pre- Ines information that is relevant to start
purging out and that's actually how humans work right we talk about low latent inhibition every time you look around your brain is choosing which information to discard and which information to retain and then which of that information should be consciously processed and not the only way to start
to get around that is by having AI start to split the difference right and frankly to start to not just predict the information you're going to want but to predict the behavior you're going to exhibit there's this great quote and actually I'll take it from Patrick's podcast I think I used this point in the
book where he talks about the F or Kevin cyrm and Daniel eek I love these two examples both were interviewed by Patrick and they both expressed and I don't think it was highlighted in the podcast because there were years apart art you know they did the same hack to have their apps seem more advanced than
they were and seem better than the competition was one was the second you started editing your photo in Instagram Instagram started uploading the photo and so the result was even though you were on a 3G network at the time it seemed like Instagram instantly uploaded your photo whereas all the competitors
asked you to wait 5 to 10 seconds and the answer was they didn't instantly did it they started it before you asked and then Spotify had a similar but different implementation where it takes about 200 milliseconds for someone to realize that they have pressed any button and the
button isn't responding and yet you don't store all of your songs locally and so what Spotify was doing was the second you pressed play on a Spotify track it showed the song start playing even though nothing was playing but your brain said look the song's playing and it's so brief a delay that you don't expect to hear anything
anyway and so there's those are these like Atomic versions of where you're saying we need these sophisticated systems to not just Stitch and pre- Stitch and predict and diagnose and discar but actually to say here's what Jim's going to start to do and let's assume what Behavior Jim's going to
exhibit once he engages in it and then that's how you start to solve around that problem I recall read reading about Netflix and uh the CEO saying that the the greatest thing that they wanted to optimized for was exactly that they were they they all they cared about was do I get uh connectivity from a basement on a
on an old older model cell phone right and because using exactly the same uh example that you gave the the it's it's a bit more human engine in right because both of the examples you just gave are human engineering and that's what he was trying to solve for the illusion if you
will that oh look I my God I can't believe I can watch something on Netflix with just one bar and I think that um all of that also plays into the idea of external Evolution within the human brain for example I'm sure you're familiar with the book The weirdest people in the world in which they they make the case
where highly literate people literally have different brain structures than people who are illiterate and they what happens is the portion of the brain that had been devoted to visual Acuity gets colonized by the ability to read and it literally changes the shape of the brain
right do you anticipate that we're going to see vastly more of this type of interactive evolution as as our models and tools get better the field of Neuroscience and certainly the interaction between digital exercises or digital training and the ways in which that shaping the brand for good and for ill is not an
area that I can speak to you know better than a field expert and so I wouldn't want to speculate too much what I will say is the following we do know that in a number of different fields that playing video games traditional or like what we would consider a fast twitch AAA video game
like Call of Duty is really good for precise muscle memory and capabilities and is actually an effective form of training maintenance for everything from surgery to in the field combat with the Arm Forces it keeps the brain actually highly trained in visual processing in memory management and
prioritization and in quick precise movements and responses now at the same time it's also very clear that you know what you would call passive interactivity which is to say your brain is very locked into a certain form of Engagement but very disassociated from others right uh your body's not moving you're not
circumstantially aware you're not using parts of your brain especially as a child for construction you know that that has delerious effects um I'll tell you was a apparent we are very anti- screen time for quite some time uh in fact like even now the two weeks that are most cherished to me each year or
when I go completely remote in the cabin we have 24K uh 28k dialup internet and that time just me unplugging now is extremely important to me as it is every day but especially for a general detox and so I'm very mindful of that especially for children as they're growing I think to
assume that there wouldn't be some long-term negative impact would be naive but I'm also optimistic about the ways in which separate from brain reprogramming and reorientation it can be positive and I thought the pandemic was like a really good version of that you know one thing that's interesting is in
the United States we have two super reliable measures of educational progress and that comes on two different dimensions it's math reading scores for ages 9 and 13 and I spent a while talking about this in the revised Edition because of course the pandemic data has come out since the first
edition came out and so we have those you know four total scores right 13 math and reading nine math and reading all four of them dropped after the pandemic three of those drops were the first ever drops measured and this is going back to the early' 70s and of of the one which I think was Boy math
13 it was one of two drops and it was 3x the largest ever recorded drop that is to say that we have pretty good evidence on multiple different factors whether that's the zoom fatigue score Zoom exhaustion score or education and general attention that this is not a particularly good medium
for learning right even for socializing this is not a great medium for human I will never tell you that using these interactive tools is likely to supplant in-person school but I will also say that that's not always an option and it's certainly not a resource that is equally distributed Global right uh our
children have the great luxury of learning in one of the most resource countries on Earth which are with a real system of pedagogy and a strong educational pipeline for teachers imperfect of course but most people don't it's also very costly it's also very resource intensive from
the individual person and we do have a lot of evidence that though among children for example screen time can be bad we also have a lot of evidence that as a substitute for Alternative forms of remote education whether that's a print textbook or a digital quiz or Zoom school or an ebook that there are
profound leaps and we see that in all measures one of which is body Lang language another is memory recall another version is through non-verbal forms of communication brow movements head knobs uh and others and some reestablishment of actual uh intimacy right you can make eye contact with your peer with the
teacher you can feel like you're present in a space it's no mistake that when you take a look at meta's version of the future with mixed reality and apples they both very prominently deploy medicine in their videos as well as both in school and out of school use of these
Technologies for education and these happen to be some of the areas in which we see Real Results uh at Young ages in particular we're investors in the synthesis school which has now just gone to uh fully to AI tutoring um and the reason we made the shift was the data uh the data was relatively unequivocal in
terms of the efficacy of the AI tutor being able to train on the unique student right so yeah in a way that is not impossible for humans but much more difficult for humans uh I mean simple things I'm sure you're familiar with neurol linguistic programming and and that some people are visual and so
communicating with them you're going to say can you see the big picture but others aren't right some people are auditory and so when you say can you see the big picture they literally can't but they can hear the ring of the bell and so the AI That's sort of like child's play for the AI to train on this the
individual student and and the results have been really pretty phenomenal uh but I also agree wholeheartedly in the idea that the in-person interaction uh whether or not you're uh you're having it augmented uh by technology or not I I agree with you I don't think that's going away I think
however that we'll be able to improve instruction uh in a in a huge huge manner with all of these new technologies coming online and and the point you made about um people who play games absolutely not lost on me there's the so-called Flyn effect and much of that idea where we saw IQs going up uh
over the last century came from these interactive type experiences where where at least that was his conclusion now they weren't the lion they weren't you know the sole reason but they were a reason I I wonder if the one of the things that I notice uh is people axiomatically being opposed
right like we've seen it now with AI um we've seen it what people don't quite understand unless they really do a deep dive is you have to have context around this and if you go back and study all Innovations what do you find you find that there is a not insignificant minority of people who just reflexively
are opposed to it do you see that as just part of the the cost of doing business as the metaverse emerges and and if you do what could we do to aurate some of those concerns and people are kind of having this knee-jerk reaction yeah so so this is a funny one and I can tell you you know I did a
pretty broad book tour when the book came out in 2002 2022 and one of the things that was actually very interesting and it probably reflects partly my naive is I didn't really tailor the examples to the audience to the extent in which I should have and by that I mean like when I went in the tech press when I went to the
conservative press the liberal press the more traditional publishing press the examples I used were typically the examples that I thought were strongest or had the most data and of course you you find out very quickly that's the wrong way to do it right there's a costic response it was partly
a response to that I'll tell you one way that I do this realistically is and this is a good example of what the left side I left identifyed and Canadian as you know really disliked because they thought it was a depressing way to look at Improvement in society through the avoidance of bad behaviors
we already exhibit whereas others take a look at it a little bit more substitution what I i' like to remind people is the current state of hupin society right people talk about Homo sapiens or homoeconomicus I like to actually recharacterize this we're actually a TV species especially in the
west the average person the average person in the United States and I know this sounds crazy is actually only awake for about 14 and a half hours per day most of us are actually asleep for seven and a half hours and that's predominantly skewed towards older and younger ages and of course the
population pyramids use that overall but of that 142 hours of which the average person in the workforce is working 30 35 hours the average person does nothing more than they watch television the average American watches five and a half hours a day of video when you get into
some of the older age groups seniors the average senior watches 7 and a half hours of Television PR 80% of that time is done alone nearly all of that time is done sedentary and so I understand the perspective that a world in which we are wearing these devices disassociating us from the physical world around you and
from the people around you and in fact arguably in some sense Society at large is not seen as desirable and I can understand the perspective that says whether that's 30 minutes a day or 2 hours a day that's not a desirable outcome and I'm a huge advocate for the outdoors I used to be a forest
firefighter I love the outdoors I've slept in tents and for hundreds of days and yet I do think that we need to recognize that most of what we do is BU ourselves it's a passive medium and I think that the substitution of some of that time into a more Lean Forward active engaged predominantly multi-participant medium
just when we're talking about VR or interactivity at Large is I think generally a good thing I also think that when we take a look at that older demographic which is skewing up there are a few people who hope to retire and spend seven and a half hours a day watching television that is a reflection
of physical limitations of the body and ailments it's of economic limitations and frankly in many instances it's a limitation of people and things to do more with and that substitution seems particularly positive I also think that when we take a look at a number of different use
cases you can see much broader societal benefits we talked about education earlier the irrespective of the ways in which that can supplement the existing forms of in-person and remote education I deeply believe that it can enrich the educational opportunities available to those who cannot to Day
Access what we in the west would consider a highquality educational experience watching posted videos from MIT professors is not particularly effective you talk about using AI agents to supplement classes we now have versions of Virtual Field Trips that exist that can be shepherded by those same Aon you
can go tour Paleolithic Earth the labs of Neils or and others with a personalized AI agent who can bring you through that experience individually you Jim and with others again not going to say that's better than MIT not going to say that's not better than a monu upbringing but for the billions of
people who can't access any of that ever their geography and income on the local school board I believe that that's great even in the most physically intensive Industries on Earth these Technologies a mixture of digital TN TNS and supior immersion Technologies are leading to remarkable
advances often in the very segments of the population where many believe that mixed reality and or AI will either obviate job classes or the need for their product I'll give you an example many of the earliest adopters of pure VR happened to be in the oil and gas and Industrials part of the economy I know
for fact that nine of the 10 largest oil and gas refiners by boed are deploying VR pretty extensively their primary implementation of those Technologies are for offshore oil platforms and rigs these are really and I talk about this example of my book these are really dangerous environments
I don't know if have you ever been on an oil rig no it's it's wild I've been on a few but the weirdest thing is especially at night they're so foreign it's like being in the movie Alien right like you're in Ripley it's like it's pure dark it's industrial and it's foreign you're in the high seas the sound is deafening
nothing about the light is natural The Sounds you hear are unnatural it's a disorienting environment it also happens to be one of the highest uh risk professions of Fatality and death in the United States and in particular if you're near the drill it's really high I think it's 35 to 50 per 100,000
and these devices are being used to improve training and onboarding familiarization before you set foot on the platform and that's actually important because that's actually an environment where it's pretty hard to acclimate before you set on foot and this really potent example that I received for bir
was that not only was it improving the onboarding time and reducing the workplace harm rate but they concluded that by dry running this with individuals they learned that the signage in this digital environment was misplaced you know in an emergency because you can track people's eyes in
this simulated emergency you start to see where did people look and you find out like well actually it turns out that in a lot of instances people did not see an important alert that they needed to and sometimes that's about placement sometimes that's about color sometimes that's about size sometimes that's about
the interaction of the environment you know you have some lights flashing and spinning that in many instances interact with a sign that is visible but not necessarily in a sensory overload interaction environment and so that's leading to Upstream changes in design and workplace safety and so usually when
I'm going through and as I mentioned earlier I'm getting better at tailoring to the audience I start to talk about the ways in which we actually have not really controversial exemplars of the lift that this can provide and like all Technologies the implementation is tricky right going to do things wrong I
think in general and AI is a great example of this we can certainly talk about the net societal benefits and the ways in which individuals can retrain to take advantage of them without properly considerating that there are swwa of the population that will never have the time
to retrain never practically get through it they get cast aside because they are marginally rounded into other benefits and in the case of Team depression and other social anxieties there's often a 20-year time Horizon until we properly understand the downsides of these accumulated
Technologies but I do think that we see enough examples of where these benefits are starting to occur know the first surgeon who performed live patient surgery using mixed reality headset said it was like using GPS to drive for the first time in the 90s and I love that example because you don't think about that as a
substitute we don't use GPS instead of driving we use GPS to complement driving and on top of that GPS is markedly better than it was in the 90s and GPS has actually become a platform for either for door dash for Tinder and much more and so I think if we're starting to see those primitive benefits now when
this technology is still so lackluster and I don't mean virtual reality I mean simulation digital twins AI complements at large I personally get inspired by what that can entail and that's where I focus my time on you know what will it be when and that is something that I am
absolutely passionate about as well the idea that uh as you brought up television is a passive uh activity it is one way it is not communal unless of course you're watching with friends and interacting with them as you're watching the show um and for example I would give a use case of AI wouldn't it
be great if some of the elders in Elder Care uh could have conversations with loved ones with a an AI friend and and the minute I say an AI friend you should see the looks on the people's faces and and I I get one of two reactions from those who react very negatively the the first is um that's
horrible their their actual children or their actual grandchildren should go and see them and you know so so they put up well this is the way it ought to be right okay I I I will stipulate okay right you're right that's the way it ought to be but that is not the way it is I have a 97-year-old mother-in-law
who lives with us now I have the privilege of having that happen right because I can economically take care of that there are so there are billions of people who can't and if you walk into a Elder Care Facility the reality of the situation is there are people older people literally sitting doing nothing
because they don't have enough TVs to go around they don't have the radio which I witnessed in one of these facilities like they were literally fighting over who got to listen to the radio and then say and you think that this other option which could be real relatively soon what
why is that bad at least they're interacting at least they're reminiscing at least they're being able to have have a conversation and and and I think that it's it's the element as you bring up on the oil RI uh rake we are frightened of uh very unusual or uh outof theordinary environments where we haven't found
ourselves in the past I I don't I don't think that that should cut off our thinking about what could be possible under certain scenarios right and uh you know to to the idea of digital twins I definitely believe that in at some point in the next 10 or 15 years maybe 20 at the most I will have a digital twin and
that digital twin will have they will have done my genome they're going to be able to do all sorts of things that I certainly am not going to let them do to me to my digital twin to see okay is is this particular medication efficacious for Jim's gen genome or not and and so I
I just I sometimes get frustrated with people who sort of forget that as you say people are watching seven and a half hours of TV to me that is an enormous waste of the person's time and mind and and it's not that I don't watch TV I watch very little but the idea that these Technologies allow for interactiv
however limited Now does not mean that they aren't going to be amazing and it does this mean that I'm hang glossing about it of course not there will be all sorts of new problems that these technologies will generate and we will address them as they present themselves and some we will address well and some
we will address poorly I'm not trying to be uh utopian in my thinking I just think that the ability to use these Technologies to at least solve or in some way ameliorate situations which I find very dire right now uh and you mentioned the educational system you're absolutely right there are billions of
children who do not have the resources available to them and so we did through stability AI uh a project where we gave AI tablets to children in Mala and Not only was the government pleased they were skeptical at first right but not only were they pleased they're like can
we get more of those tablets because literally these children it was going from like nothing to something thought yeah I mean look I love this topic I I think about education quite a bit because I think it's it's so profoundly important and at least in the United States we have so long struggled to come up with a
solution and by that I mean I think most people are surprised to understand that since the Advent of the internet there is not a single sector of the US economy that has shown greater cost increases there's not only no evidence of productivity improvements but while health care costs
are up about 800% since 1982 1983 when we typically give the birthday to the Internet it's just a chosen date it's up six seven 800% depending on the classification education is up 14 15 1600% and that is mostly because of cost disease yes but it is also a reflection
of the fact that all of the technologies that we have implemented into the school have not actually led to the most fundamental measures of improvement which is we don't teach faster than before right we haven't shaved a grade off of high school or college we don't uh use fewer resources in people in fact
the number of Educators per student that we believe is optimal has gone up and the cost of other resources in real estate and books has gone up as well and so that's why we see this cost increase and so the question becomes how can we actually solve for that and I'm a big believer that if we have better
technology that is more immersive we will start to remedy them I am cognizant of the fact that people giving interviewers not unlike me for 40 years have been saying exactly they've been saying well what if you could have Hollywood Squares home what if you could have a digital quiz what if all of the
libraries of MIT were available for you to learn at home and so I'm cognizant that the burden of proof here is very high and I can't yet prove it by but I do believe that many of the aspects that we have lost or been as yet unable to replicate with distance education are often the most important right that
is a personal connection to a teacher a professor a TA or some sort of facilitator and it is the sense of people with you with whom you learn it is the combined effect of both of those constituents knowing you and it is the fact that we know that the best way to learn is not to read it's not to hear
it's not to do a quiz it is to do and that is one of the things that fund mentally with Technologies we have not yet been able to do building a rot golden machine is much better than understanding the physics of how a rot Goldberg machine works a dissection is more powerful than looking at a
circulatory system or organ system in a book and we are starting to get to the point where you can not only do that not ebooks uh and not just do it like a '90s game but do it in more ly with your friends and I'm optimistic that that can start to make a difference otherwise we know the outcome and that is that this
education becomes not just more expensive but as such more restrictive to those who can never benefit from it and that helps no one now at the same point I kind of love the point that you're talking about which is a virtual friend and this is where we start to get to some of the really tricky ethics here
and this is actually where we start to get into this intersection of where the Advan is in Ai and the events is in simulation start to freak people out with good reason I'm of the digital era I have tens of thousands of emails that are online I have millions of different messages that I've sent spanning back
from IRC to Blackberry Messenger to WhatsApp and Signal iMessage one could do a pretty adequate job of training an llm to behave like me to write like me you can certain have someone you could probably find enough audio of me to make someone sound like me if you saw Mark
Zuckerberg interviewed by Lex Freedman a hyper realistic Avatar of Mark that looks and feels like apple has launched as part of its spatial photos what you can use your iPhone to reproduce your home your pet your environments we are not far from the point in time in which your deceased mother heaven forbid your
deceased child can be re-embodied that you could go back to their sixth birthday and do something new with them and it would be really real like people get creeped out about some get creeped out about the idea of her right the non-existent person honestly we are not that far from having
a the simile not a great one of a real person uh that you can experience not just in real world environments but in real world things that happened comb together from the hundreds of thousands of images you and your family have taken throughout your life together the ethics around that are going to become
challenging the emotional consequences of those are going to be pretty mixed and I think it's easy to say that the net will be negative the ability for any legal structure to intervene is negligible right it's private prop and I do think that's where we start to get into these you know really tricky
questions and even around the world not to take this too on towards is we're already encountering this with deep fakes is the policy around negative uses of that around pornography of revenge porn frankly of child pornography that we're starting to entertain of violence right like you
start to ask this question of what's appropriate simulation and you start to get into Worlds in which we know what I'm not going to get into examples but like the bad things that malcontents are the mentally unwell conceive of and that start to become a realistic opportunity or something that can perpetuate those
poor thoughts uh those are going to be real challenges not unlike the last 40 Years of the internet have produced similar versions of those and in some instances less right yeah and I think that it is far more subtle than a dichotomy a yes no that you know we can solve this we can't
solve listen it's going to be highly nuanced and we have absolutely we are going to have a brand new set of challenges and things that we have to uh think if you will you're you you are a fireman right we don't Outlaw fire we train firemen we have fire drills we have fire extinguishers we have all of
those things because the power that good old Prometheus brought to us is so overwhelmingly positive in the general sense that the external negative the externalities of that have to be dealt with and and I definitely think that we will face similar challenges on this front on the front of
the metaverse on the front of AI however I believe that we will be able to as these new challenges present themselves to us we will be able to solve the majority of them I'm not I'm not certain at all that we will I in fact I'm fairly certain that we will not solve all of them but as they evolve we
will get I hope better and better at coming up with Solutions and one of the things that animates me is the the discovery potential of um uh just sticking with education uh of a metaverse where people can feel as if they are actually interacting in the real world in in my old writing I I
called it base uh State reality um and that we were going to be moving further and further away from base State reality mostly for fun but also for educational purposes and a variety of other things uh you you you mentioned that the data on me and on you is sufficient that we can create a
reasonable fact symo thereof that's exactly the experiment we're doing with what we call Sim JY I I have written four books I kept journals since I was 18 I've been interviewed a ton and we're just dumping it all into the large language model and it's it's kind of fun uh to see how how close or how uh
distant that Sim JY is going to be and yet if you think of an educational use case wouldn't it be great to put all of the writings of filling your favorite philosopher uh into a large language model and then actually have kind of a cratic dialogue with wienstein or Kant
or whomever you want to boy I'd love to talk to Richard Fineman and he wrote a lot how cool would it be to be able to dump all of that in there and then I just have an app where I can ask him a series of questions so I I definitely think that uh you know the precautionary principle it it's it is wise to have a
precautionary principle I believe I believe it is very unwise to push the precautionary principle to a level where you want you you want to just be so careful that no real progress happens that leads in my opinion to stasis and stasis is death and and so I think that we need to be very mindful of all of
these that's why I love your work you you don't sugarcoat things and and you are uh very uh careful to uh look at both the advantages and the disadvantages that we might see but in silico digital twins of me doing all the testing there I I honestly believe that when when it gets to the level where we
can really make incredible discoveries we'll look back and think my God we used to test this stuff on animals or we used to actually have human trials well before we ever should have and so I always try to bring in the idea that yes of course there's lots of bumps in the road and it's a slow path and a
circuitous one and but I think directionally the the the area that we're going to um is phenomenal and what I mean like every day I I joke with my wife like how lucky are we that we are alive at this time and and you know I look at my grandchildren and of course I worry and of course I have all of those
normal um uh human emotions that a grandfather would have but for the most part I'm just excited for them you know you often talk about over indexing on the young that is something that I believe in passionately most of the people who work uh as my teammates and colleagues at oasi ventures are in their
20s or early 30s and uh I I just think it's phenomenal because uh they being much more digital native than me although I was the kind of uber geek who was one of the I have one of the earliest membership numbers on uh comput serve if you recall that um online uh Network well you don't mind I wouldn't
I'd like to change gears and and look at what this might do to Media because you also talk a lot about about that you've you've talked about there being kind of the waves of competition in media if you know if you look at aasy Ventures and our verticals you'll see that it's very media heavy with infinite films infinite
books infinite uh media that covers podcasts and things like that and uh I love the way you outline it with you know first it was access based then content based and then and then platform-based is going to probably be where the real fights happen because with the information overlo uh load I
personally believe and people get after me for this without defining it very clearly but I believe that good taste is really underpriced right now and good taste that leads to good curation leads to Great platforms and so I'd love to hear your thoughts uh about the evolution in in
the space the media space yeah so I'll give a quick summary of this thesis and I published it at Great length at what I called the streaming book which really isn't about streaming video it's about how streaming video and streaming and digital subscriptions at large encapsulate what we've observed over the
past decade you can find it at the streaming book.com and it basically says that we see three different stages of competition amongst any new modality or technology and that is the first is access-based competition in short a new technology emerges which fundamentally and profoundly improves the ways in
which consumers access media it's so profound in advance that it starts taking share from the old modality and there's relatively little intra modality competition this is Netflix and Hulu and Prime video early on it is ABC NBC CBS taking share from plays then it is the herbal early
cable networks taking share away from broadcast they are cannibalizing but out of the old thing because the new thing is so demonstrably better better in delivery and quality and packaging and business model and we saw that of course with Netflix and streaming at large to Kate but eventually those advances
commodify it's not that they're truly commodified just as Netflix is still technologically superior to the video services that we have from all of its competitors but the things that were previously really darn hard building a streaming app publishing it to every possible end point uh even hiring the
people who had experience du those things they go from being scarce and unproven to relatively straightforward in digital you now have dozens and dozens of middleware providers that will allow you to bolt together a Netflix like stack in 2015 for zero effectively and it used to be really
hard to get streaming television on a TV now you've got thousands of devices that will do it for you there's a $200 walm Marketplace when that commodification happens the nature of competition naturally returns to the point of access and that's content what I call content competition we saw that in the streaming
Wars in 2019 every single company that could have a streaming service comes out with a streaming service we see a surge of content investment surge of product we see rigorous competition among players not before but now right because all of them were trying to get the scarce customer in the new modality
having mostly harvested the old one and so in that environment the primary beneficiaries are talent and certainly consumers who have more options and lower prices than ever before but it's pretty hard to make a dollar because naturally content is only getting easier to make and the distribution Advantage
has gone by but eventually you have the inevitable outcome of too much content too easy distribution technically and consumers that have so much choice that margins get whittel away to nearly nothing and that's certainly what we've seen in stream then you hit this third
Stitch again which is shown throughout time which is what I call platform and the basis of competition that was previously accessed then it was content original content in streaming becomes about the economic Advantage your remote and that is the ability to extract more from your subscriber primarily through
attaching other things around it that they can do if you take a look at the Heyday of cable that would was bundling all your CH channels together NBC bought USA and USA took all of its 25 channels and they turned around to comcat or to AT&T and Verizon and Direct TV and they said take all of
them and a video distributor like Comcast goes to you Jim and they say you want TV well you're going to have to take home phone and then you're going to have to take Internet and then you're G to have to take smartphone that's where your competitive Advantage becomes and so we see this playing out at large
Netflix goes into games they go into interactive experiences Amazon of course was a prototype for this we see this with apple with their many different services with their apple one subscription with the integration now into the Vision Pro and the interaction between their many services your
question about taste is kind of parallel or perpendicular intersecting and that is to say that nowhere here does it ever crystallize that taste is really the key differentiator here but what we do know is that it is a form of remarkable operating leverage and that's because haste doesn't cost more per se just as
making spending more on something doesn't make it better but the returns from taste equate to efficiency of content production but the same eyeballs the same reach it leads to Greater catalog value which means that an asset that you hope to C capitalize a podcast episode a movie a
series of Television actually has enduring value over time whereas others operate like Opex they're watched once they're chewed they're forgotten and the recommendation algorithm naturally says never surface this again because there's too much other stuff Jim's never going to watch it and it leads
to nonlinear pricing power in the same way that Disney has great pricing power despite producing relatively little because if you're a parent you have no choice but to have Disney plus and so Disney plus if you can believe it in four years doubled their average price why because the pricing power is REM
remarkable HBO is perhaps the best example I'm often asked this question now let's not forget HBO does have a finite ceiling there are not as many Americans as HBO as Discovery is 18 before that time order before that hoped would be interested in HP but it is also true that 15 years after Netflix Amazon
eight years after Apple started doing original programming very few people in the industry or viewers would say that anyone has gotten anywhere near HBO's ability to produce content as good as reliably and in the volumes that it does and taste is a great way to reduce it but it is what I think about as process
and it is about team it is one of the companies that has the fewest develop or the fewest programs assigned to a development executive in the industry which means you Jim or signed to fewer than your peer at another streaming service they typically have you stick with it through the life of the show
there's relatively low turnover historically and so you have this great example of you're an expert in overseeing under the HBO sty you've seen things from Cradle to grave you've done it hand inand with several other colleagues and you've done that under a model that has operated for 30 to 40
years under that scheme that is to say they don't talk about the HBO way but there is an HBO taste there is an HBO process there is an HBO langa franka there is an HBO collegial trust Cadence ability to work to get that extends to Talent relationships and extends to Brands but it mostly extends
to how they develop and it's the same reason why when you pluck a great development executive out of HBO and put them into Amazon or apple or Netflix or Showtime they're still a great development executive but it's missing so much of the infrastructure I can be as great an interviewer as you I can get
the same guess but the entire system including what I need to survive on the next episode in contrast to your next episode it's all different and that produces a real intangible and shockingly durable advantage and I will tell you the great flip side of this and it's why I've long been a Netflix Bull
and I always thought that their International was underappreciated is any American knows what HBO is and what it stands for even if they can't clearly describe it and those advantages have been hard-earned over quite a bit of time in most parts of the world on the brand on the library side on the
production and the talent deals that's Netflix they have built that abroad and that started early in the 2010s it's now 15 years in that's a real durable thing the weird thing about being an American watching Netflix I think this is old hat now but you know we kind of experienced
the worst version of it we experienced the worst version of it and it's the most expensive version of it and it has the greatest competition and so that skews our perception of it but second you step outside of the country they've really got a you know different Advantage here but the HBO stuff is
remarkable and look it's the same reason why you know this is a longer example but you know to talk about taste and how complex it is you remember when memore came out in 2013 the artist y yep first artist I think that was 2013 he's the first artist since Lisa low in 1994 for to have a hit number one song on the
side few weeks later he does it again and has another number one and then a few weeks later he has a number four and everyone in the industry was like that's it uh it's open we're gonna have no more signed arts and then a little bit later you get Chance the Rapper not number one but like pretty
successful unsigned but then what happens you know it's been 11 years there hasn't been another like that Taylor Swift changed label she got a much better deal doubtly Drake released an album to get out of his deal but he resigned with universal Beyonce resigns but everyone still says this system
which has not seen its margins go down by the way in aggregate has actually proven the value that many technologists believed didn't exist they thought that they were just taxes burdens on the system yeah there was value in anr there was value in marketing there was value
in distri ution there was intangibles but it wasn't actually responsible for making the artist a hit and I'm not going to say they're more responsible than the artists themselves obviously there's some instances in which that is true but that Talent Development system of matching sounds with producers with
writers with systems with timing has actually proven itself that that taste exists and it's why we haven't seen true direct to Consumer artists on mass and why we're probably going to approach the same gap between Lisa Lobe and M lore between M lmore and the next artist to do so even
though the reach of all social and DC platforms has just grown more and more casaste is a really real really valuable thing it's just hard to put on the books yeah and the in intangibles uh are uh including taste uh more and more accounting for the market cap size of P public company uh you know
my firm that I sold a sh cset management was a quantitative investment firm and we were uh doing studies looking at the value of intangibles and it's just literally it's not quite exponential but it's close yeah and what you're seeing is exactly what you just described those Moes that are
some would say are invisible but are obviously there and I I I use the the term uh taste uh and the the ability for curation your extension of that and elaboration on that is exactly right those systems are amazingly antifragile because they actually do work right and and your example of mamore is really great because
every time someone like him and it's very seldom right when they come on the scenes everyone's like okay everything's going to be direct to Consumer and you know that that's the way it's going to go I I I'm betting the other way I am thinking you know the vast majority of authors for example they benefit from a
uh a publisher like the one we're creating with infinite books because of everything you just mentioned are we ever going to get the person who's the massive author who loves to do everything direct consumer no but we don't want them right that channel can be exploited very very well um but it's
much more in my opinion and of course I've been wrong many many times in the past so I could be wrong here but I think that that is a unique channel that can really the direct consumer that can only be exploited by very very few and it's not just artists it's in a whole variety of things from
from books to podcasts to movies and and whatnot well I I'm I'm getting the hook on my phone here from my producer and I I haven't even like touched half of what I wanted to chat with you about this has been absolutely phenomenal um be before they they really bring the hook and take
me away uh what what have you seen recently um that is like that made you go oh my god oh wow okay this is gon to be this is going to be huge and it can be in streaming it can be in the metaverse in any of the things in which you are uh a domain expert this is either going to sound evasive or boring
the the one that comes to mind I can't share right now but I'll offer you know a somewhat Side Story and he kind of gets to the earlier question on hardware and AI one of the things I find really neat about the challenges that we've encountered with v is it kind of gets your your question about mixed reality
augmented reality it gets to that challenge of like what we've discovered about humans when you go to 2014 2015 the consensus among all a big Tech was that AR glasses lightweight simulation glasses were going to be solved within the decade and probably sooner and they haven't been because the challenges
technically are harder they've been hasn't been solved because we' found that the human requirements are higher right I mentioned earlier that we're talking about 8 to 16k resolution with 100 to 240 FPS we didn't actually think that was going to be it and so all of a sudden you found out that the
specifications were Forex harder than higher than we anticipated and Forex harder higher is not forx harder it's 200 times harder but one of the things that we've encountered is called mergence accommodation conflict and I love this example I think it's the coolest virgins accommodation conflict relates to how our eyes work
and this is where we're engineering technology to solve for the ways in which our bodies have evolved for thousands of years we have binocular vision when you are looking five feet in front of you your eyes point in more strongly than when you look 200 meters behind they diverge instead of
converge or rather they're relative convergence red uh reduces they move out and when your vergence changes your eyes broadly accommodate in precision and the retina changes a little bit all of these things happen naturally when your sense of focus changes from 6 feet to 200 ft
now the problem that happens when you're in a VR environment is or mixed reality is everything's an inch and a half away from your eyes and therefore something that's six feet back and something that's 200 feet back is actually in equal Focus but your eyes are changing their vergence and then your brain is
changing the accommodation that comes from that in blurring and focusing and then it realizes very quickly that that accommodation conflicts with the Precision of the information that you're getting and so one of the reasons why we actually get nausea and fatigue is because your brain is having to
reconcile something that for thousands of years and your entire life has always worked essentially seamlessly now you might say well what happens when you're playing a video game well when you're playing a video game the screen is 8 to 10 feet away and therefore your brain is picking
up local cues depth from the real and if you're 8 to 10 feet away and then the thing on the screen is 8T away and then the thing behind it is 200 feet away the percentage difference in the relative shift from the six and 200 is much much more reduced so even when you have that accommodation conflict it adjusts just a
little bit on a percentage term whereas when it's right in front of your face it's like a 90% difference in the relative accommodation so then you start to answer this question well how do you solve for that and there are a whole bunch of different solutions that are coming into work and
I've seen them in a bunch of private Labs the problem is these devices are already hard they're heavy they're costly they use a lot of battery well we have all of these Solutions meta has released some of these publicly you know one is they actually put a motor in these devices and the screen moves back
upwards of an inch as your own eye is changing and what that's doing doing is a providing a little bit of relief but B it's actually giving your brain a little bit of the feedback that what it thought was happening was happening another thing that's being done is can the software using ai ai
that is understanding where your eye is likely looking and using software to then dimensionalize the environment and selectively blur it to give your eye the feedback that it thinks it should see but other wise doesn't see because the entire screen is in Focus so now you're looking at a tree 60t behind the tree is
now in Focus but everything around it is outof focus proportional to how it would be in the real world and then you get into some weirder stuff which is to say well one of the reasons why you need glasses to wear the Vision Pro or sorry you need prescription lenses to wear the
Vision Pro if you require corrective lenses and so you have to spend an extra $199 to get custom lenses for the Vision Pro and then everyone in your household needs their own custom lenses that you need to swap out that's burdensome because it's an extra $199 it's burdensome because it means more
infrastructure needs to go into the device to be able to swap out the lenses and it's burdensome because it makes the device thicker not just costlier to accommodate that the reason why you can't wear glasses in the visu Pro but you can in The Meta Quest is because Apple puts the
ey tracking cameras behind the lens and by putting the eye tracking cameras behind the lens they can see your eye and your pupil directly and therefore more accurately but if you wore glasses you would have two lenses in between your eye and the camera and that would result in extra artifacts and extra Reflections
that would cause conflict meta says as a result let's put the cameras up and indirect ly look at your eyes at the cost of accuracy and apple says let's put it in front at the benefit of accuracy but at the cost of uh new lenses where I'm going with this is there are a lot of advances that
say if your eyes see wrong you have double vision you have 2520 you have hyperopia myopia astigmatism why doesn't software correct for that right you can just negatively index for that same visual impairment so that you actually see the wrong image distorted with the exact physical properties proportional to the
image you're looking at right 100 feet is going to have less Distortion than 200 feet and so that's AI that has to solve it and it's actually the much smarter version of saying let's do a motor but of course now we get back to the earlier problem Jim you're saying like okay that makes sense but but hot
darn you have to simulate the entire world or understand the physical world and then by the way you have to render it 240 times per second precisely and that sff darn hard but again it gets back to the way that we started which is what's the intersection between these AI advances and this kind of device type
and the answer is it may be that we can never do it the hard way just with more Computing processors smaller Hardware bigger batter and the answer is actually we just need smarter AI that understands the limitations of gym and then dist starts the world to do it just like glasses so
cool I I one of the other short hands that I use often is that we are moving rapidly from mass production to mass customization and if you understand the implications of that uh as you've just eloquently outlined uh with uh with that story it can help you in in your if you are an entrepreneur it's G to certainly
help you decide how you're going to build things and which path you're going to pursue um and and the brute strength uh path I I think is now the one that is the lesser of the two roads um Matthew I am just delighted that you took all this time uh with me uh I can't wait uh well
I I have seen the new book but we are holding it very closely and uh it comes out for all of our listeners and viewers July 23rd uh is that is that correct and that will be available that will be available everywhere um well our last question on the show is is a a fun one from from our
perspective and that is we we're g to make you the emperor of the world uh you can't kill anyone you can't put anyone in a re-education camp but what you can do we're going to hand you a magical microphone and you can say two things into that microphone that is going to incept all eight billion people on the
planet whenever their next morning is they're going to wake up and they're going to think the two things that you've said that they are their own ideas and they're going to say I've just had two of the most brilliant ideas and un like all the other times I'm GNA actually act on both of these ideas
right now what are you going to incept into the world's population this is probably not the exact way in which you're asking the question but I would it would be to spend the morning fresh reassessing party and religious affiliation which one actually fits their instinctive moral and familial values
and why not fully of course that's not to say that anyone has the right or wrong religious affiliation or political leanings but I do think that there's enough evidence to show that once you know the party position your ability to even strictly do the mental math around correlation is forever taint and I mean
that in the strictest way possible that you cannot do basic math when your unconscious brain recognizes that answering the question correctly conflicts with your priors we often do the math wrong and so I think starting a fresh is you know in our Fantastical question where I where i'
get I love it uh and maybe that's why Orwell uh insisted that 2 plus two equals five right thank you so much for being with us uh where can where can our I I know you have a website you have H multiple locations where people can find you but if you want to we'll have them all on
the show notes uh any any particular place you'd Point uh new newcomers uh to First you can find me online My essays at Matthew b.co they're as lengthy and long-winded as I have been on this interview I know you say We R half the questions I interpret that to mean I took twice the time to answer each one
I'm at ball Matthew on Twitter and ball metaverse book.com will detail everything that's in this new edition 70% of it is new it's fun to discuss why it's new that'll be for a later time and you can see the testimonials award sales and everything terrific well this has been fantastic I wish you all the best
and uh hope there's another I hope there's an episode two because I find this absolutely fascinating and you as well I hope there's an episode two as well I certainly hope there's not another book update coming but we we'll see what the world has in store thanks Jim all right thank you aew byebye for