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Questioners are like, who are these lemmings?
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Everybody is just going along without asking why?
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Like, who are you people?
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Like and the obligers are like, why is everybody telling me what to do?
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Why are they Why am I always the one saying yes?
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Why is you know, why am I the one struggling with boundaries?
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Why can't other people just act like civilized people and do their part?
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And I'm always the one picking up the flag.
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And then the rebels are like, why is everybody trying to tell me what to do?
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Just get out of my way and stop talking to me and I will do it.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose.
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I am so excited for you to be listening to the show right now.
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Thank you so much for tuning back in.
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It means the world to me that you come back every single week to listen, learn and grow.
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And I love inviting guests onto the show that I really believe are going to expand our minds, give us new insights and especially people who help us structure the craziness that's going on.
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Now, today's guest is going to do just that.
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I've been a long-term fan and follower of her work.
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Today's guest is Gretchen Rubin, the author of several books including the New York Times bestsellers Outer Order, In a Calm, Better Than Before, The Happiness Project, Happier at Home and The Four Tendencies, which we'll be diving into today.
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She has an enormous readership in print and online and her books have sold more than 3 and 1/2 million copies worldwide in more than 30 languages.
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She makes frequent TV appearances and is an incredible speaker that I've been following for a long time.
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She's also a CBS News contributor every Monday on CBS This Morning, the final before we go segment features her solutions and tips for living a happier, healthier, more productive life.
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On her weekly podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin, which I really recommend you check out, she discusses good habits and happiness with her sister Elizabeth Craft.
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Gretchen started her career in law and now has gone on to become an incredible writer.
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Today I'm excited to talk to her about learning about personality types, tendencies, and see how we can immediately and rapidly improve our life, our communication, and our relationships.
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Gretchen Rubin, everyone.
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Gretchen, thank you for doing this.
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Oh, I'm so happy to be talking to you.
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I'm a huge fan of your work and we're interested in so many of the same things.
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I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Thank you for having me.
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I know, I know, and I remember when this book came out, I was so excited to read it because I'm so fascinated by personality types, tendencies, how we think styles, and and how we're different.
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And the fact that I get to sit here with you today and dissect it is is a real treat and joy for me.
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But I wanted to start more on the personal side.
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I actually wanted to start off by asking you what the last adventure you went on with your two daughters, uh considering it's been such a uh insular time and obviously restrictive time.
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What's What's something you've done with your daughters recently? Oh my goodness.
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Well, I think our adventures have been very home home-bound adventures, but I decided I wanted to learn how to play poker.
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Um I wanted to do something with a beginning, middle, and an end, and so we were like, "We're going to learn to play poker."
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My husband knew how to play but the three my my two daughters and I did not know how to play.
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So I rallied them and that was kind of a that was an adventure and I realized like I've been misunderstanding the plots of so many movies and books because I had a complete misconception of how to how poker worked.
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Um and so that's been kind of a an adventure uh that we did under our own roof. Oh, I love that.
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What Tell me what your perception of poker was and how it differed from reality. Oh.
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Well, I thought it was like a long complex game where there's a lot of like, you know, trading cards back and forth.
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My One of my daughters said She said, "The thing that I don't like about poker is it doesn't feel like a game.
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It feels like the prelude to a different game."
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And I was like, I got I don't like I don't usually like games.
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I think that's what I like about it.
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It's kind of um it just sort of unrolls and and you deal with what you have and then you move on.
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Um so I thought it was very I think I thought it was more like bridge.
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Whatever my conception of bridge is, I also don't know how to play bridge.
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But I I I didn't realize like like sort of what it sort of an instant gratification game more than some some games.
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Yeah, what's that movie I'm thinking of now that you remind me of Molly's Game?
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Oh, there's so many poker movies. Yeah.
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And everybody gasped when they see a hand.
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I'm like, I have no idea what that means.
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But now I know, so I'm very excited.
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Yes, and my my family was very patient with me.
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Um because I was always like, "Wait, tell me why you What's a flush again?" You know. Yeah, I that's awesome.
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I didn't have the patience to learn how to play that properly, but for my it was my wife's birthday during quarantine about a week ago, maybe 10 days ago, and we did I I organized a mini She's my wife's a vegan recipe developer and chef.
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And so we did a mini food Olympics.
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All these games that were based on foods, catching foods, eating foods, playing with food, and it was it was a lot of fun.
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We did it digitally, but it was a lot of fun. That's a great idea. I love that. That's so whimsical. That's really fun.
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Yeah, it was It was very silly. Yeah, it was very silly.
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And now that I wanted to ask you was about this, you know, and I love this line that you say.
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It really really has stuck with me every time you said it.
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You said that I'd rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer.
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And and I think that's such a powerful message.
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And and and that that one line has so much depth to it.
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Tell us about that journey of becoming a lawyer to then realize that it wasn't your path.
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Because I think a lot of our listeners are either at that point on their path or getting to that point on their path.
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Some of them have already made the switchover, and hearing about your journey I think will help a lot of people because this isn't what you set out to do in the beginning. Right.
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Well, you know, I went to law school for the same reason a lot of people go to law school, because I was like, "It's a great education.
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I'm good at research and writing.
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It'll keep my options open, and I can It's always change my mind later."
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My father's a really happy lawyer.
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He didn't put any pressure on me, but he was definitely an example of someone who loved being a lawyer.
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So, I went for all the wrong reasons, which I call drift.
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So, drift is the decision you make by not deciding or by doing the kind of path of least resistance.
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You know, you you get married cuz your friends are getting married.
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You become a doctor cuz your parents are doctors, and you're going to science, or you take a job that somebody offers you that job.
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So, I just kind of drifted into law.
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And the fact is, I had a great experience at law.
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I was editor-in-chief of the law review at Yale, where I was.
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I was a clerk for Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor.
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Um but, while I was clerking for her, I got an idea for a book.
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And at the time, I didn't even know it was a book.
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I just was obsessed with an idea, and I was And this happens to me all the time in my life.
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I'll get really interested in something and do a lot of research and writing.
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But, this was um I was just doing so much research and so much writing, and finally, I thought, "Well, this is the way somebody would prepare to write a book."
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And then, I thought, "Well, maybe I could write a book about this."
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And then, I got went to the bookstore and bought a book that was called something like, "How to Write and Sell Your Nonfiction Book Proposal."
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And I just followed the directions.
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But, as you say, it was like it felt very risky, but I did say to myself, "I would rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer, and I have to give it a shot.
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I have to allow myself to either succeed or fail, because if I don't try, I think I'm going to be haunted by this." Um and so, I did. I love that.
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I love how how simple it is and how practical it is, because I know that so many people, if you're listening or watching right now, that's often what it takes.
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Like, you you get a feeling, and then you go into the research, and then you follow the steps.
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And of course, there's so much more hard work and sacrifice and everything all the all the other ingredients that are really important, but the methodology is is usually uh aligned.
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It's it's very similar to to wanting to break into a particular industry or whatever it may be.
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The methodology can be similar, but it's the hard work.
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Tell us a bit about that side, uh, Gretchen, around the sort of pain or sacrifice or some of the pressure that you felt because, you know, you were successful, you were doing well for yourself, you've obviously worked and there's so much sunk cost bias Yes.
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of the drift of like you worked so hard to get into this incredible institution and you get so much respect for it and people Yes.
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think you're great at it and then all of a sudden you're starting out with like basically zero.
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It's almost like, you know, starting from the bottom again in an industry which you have no reputation in, you have you have no qualification in.
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Tell us about what that feels like and and what was it that helped you kind of build your way up from there?
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Well, you're exactly right.
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Like I didn't have a clip, I hadn't worked on the college newspaper or my high, you know, I I not I hadn't published a short story.
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Uh, business law I had all these, you know, feathers in my cap, but, um, if anything I think, you know, lawyer turned writer sounds so boring.
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I was like I even hated to tell people that I was a lawyer cuz I thought that would make them, you know, run run screaming from my proposal.
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But, you know, I had something that at the time I didn't even think about, but then looking back and talking to other people who are similarly situated, I I realized how fortunate I was, which was how the people around me were so tolerant of me taking a risk and so encouraging.
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And I think sometimes the people around us out of the deepest love and the desire to protect us.
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They don't want to see us disappointed.
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They don't want to see us fail.
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They don't want to see our feelings get hurt.
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They don't want to see us frustrated. They want us to be safe.
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Um, but there is no path of safety.
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I mean, if anything, if the last 10 years have shown us anything, 15 years, you know, there is no safe profession.
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Um, and I was really lucky because my parents were like, "Great.
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You want to start all over from scratch after having just completed this long thing, which by the way we paid for.
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Fine, great, excellent, go for it.
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My husband was also switching from law to right from law to finance, and so he was also going through a big switch.
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So, we were doing that together.
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I remember there was a day when um I had decided that I was going to like try to get an agent, and he was going to try to get a job in finance, and we had moved to New York City.
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And the note came from the New York Bar Association.
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It was time for us to pay our bar fees, and these are not inconsequential fees.
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Like, you have to pay a lot to remember the bar.
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And I said to my husband, "Are we going to pay our bar fees?"
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And he said, "Are you kidding? No way."
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And I was like, "Okay, we are doing this. We are committed now."
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Now, now I find out you can always get readmitted to the bar if you just like do a few things.
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But at the time it felt like this massive step.
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So, I was very fortunate that the people around me were really encouraging.
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And my father said something to me that others I've repeated it because it was so meaningful to me, and people have said, "Oh, that sounds discouraging."
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But actually it was very encouraging.
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So, I said to my father, "Okay, I have this idea for a book. I'm going to write it."
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And he said, "Well, look, darling, you might not hit it out of the park the first time, but you'll get there."
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And people said, "But that's that's telling him he didn't think you could succeed."
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I was like, "No, it was him telling me if you don't fail the first time, that doesn't mean you're a failure.
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You don't have to succeed right away in order for this to have been the right decision."
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And that was very comforting to me because I was like, "This could take time."
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You know, and here my father's reminded me, "Sometimes things take time, but that doesn't mean that they're the wrong thing to do."
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Yeah, it's it's incredible, isn't it?
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You've you've just kind of hit a hit a point for me while I'm listening to you that it's it's amazing how how what how old were you when you became a qualified lawyer? Like 25, is it?
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Is it like Uh when I took the bar, I was probably like 26, 27. Right, okay.
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So, you took the bar at 26, 27, and if you think about it, you've been in education or in the educational system since like three or four years old. Yeah. Yeah.
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Which means to become a lawyer, and which is an incredible profession, it took 23 to 24 years.
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And and I think we almost forget that that it took X amount of time.
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I I went to Cass Business School where I studied management science with a focus on behavior science and I graduated at 21, 22.
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I was the oldest in my year and it's like people forget that that means I've spent 18 years to get this qualification, which means getting to something I didn't want took 18 to 24 years.
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But it's funny that we expect all of a sudden that when we do something we're passionate about that it has to happen on the first time.
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And and we forget that we spend 18 to 24 years trying to get good at something we didn't even love, yet we expect ourselves to be perfect at something the day we try it and not realizing that it may take sometimes another 10, 20, even 30 years in some cases.
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Yeah, and I think sometimes that's the way that people deal with the fear of it is by saying, "Well, if I if it's not an immediate success, then I know that I should give up."
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Because uh to struggle, to flail around, to make mistakes, to learn things the hard way um is tough and it's it can be no fun and so sometimes it feels good to be like, "Well, I tried it and so now I you know, I learned my lesson."
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instead of sort of staying in it and kind of allowing yourself to to feel that frustration.
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Um you know, it's funny because sometimes when people talk about a happy life, they talk about they talk about it as if a happy life would be a life when you feel 10 on the one to 10 scale 24/7.
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And that's not realistic and it's not even a good life.
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Um there's many reasons why we feel sad or we feel angry or we feel resentful or we feel outraged or we feel you know, insecure, we feel scared.
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And these are all really important emotions, we can learn a lot from them, and they can direct our behavior in really, really positive ways.
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But, it's not always so fun to feel those emotions.
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You know, envy is a really powerful, helpful emotion, but it is no fun to feel it.
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Um but, we can learn a lot from these negative emotions.
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Yeah, it's funny how we've created a viewpoint in our minds that we're almost broken if we have those emotions.
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Yeah, no, they're and they're extraordinarily important and useful.
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Yeah, and we we feel like we have to fix ourselves instead of feel that emotion.
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And and fixing can kind of lead to so much more pain because every time we fix something, there's another thing, and then there's another thing, and it can be a never-ending cycle.
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Tell us about how you discovered the four tendencies and first was where you were like, "Oh, this is you know, this is a really big idea that's going to help people."
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Well, I was sitting right where I'm sitting right now. I remember it.
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I mean, it hit me like a lightning bolt because it was something I had been struggling about with for months, months and months, maybe years.
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Um and uh and it was there were all these I had been writing a book called Better Than Before that was all about habit change, how we make or break our habits.
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And I'd been noticing patterns in what people said and how they behaved and certain challenges that they faced that I couldn't make sense of, but somehow I intuited that they were somehow connected, but I couldn't understand the pattern.
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It was just my my brain was melting trying to figure this out.
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And one of the most significant examples was when a friend said to me, "You know, I would be happy I know I would be happier if I exercised."
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And when I was in high school, I was on the track team, and I never missed track practice.
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So, why can't I go running on my own now?
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And I thought, "I've heard so many people say something like that. What's going on?"
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And you can think of a hundred different reasons maybe that could explain that.
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But, what's really going on?
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And then there were certain I would always say to people, "How do you feel about New Year's resolutions?"
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cuz that's sort of a good habits-related question to get people talking.
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And certain people would give me exactly the same answer.
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They say, "I would keep a habit and or start a resolution whenever it made sense to me.
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I would not wait for January 1st because January 1st is an arbitrary date.
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And they always said arbitrary.
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I was like, that's interesting because the arbitrariness never really bothered me.
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Then I was at a party and I was talking to a woman and who I now know what tendency she has but I was telling her I was writing a book about habits.
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She literally took a step back from me because she was so repelled by the idea of writing about She was like, why would you write about such a terrible subject?
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I was like, I love the idea of habits.
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To me they're energizing and freeing.
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I love the subject of habits.
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And so one day I was sitting there and I was just thinking and these were just running through my mind and I was trying to understand how are they connected?
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And I realized that the idea was expectations.
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How do people respond to expectations?
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And when I got to the word expectations, I quickly realized that there are two kinds of expectations.
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Outer expectations like uh meeting a deadline or meeting a request from a friend.
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And then there are inner expectations like my own desire to become a writer and write a book proposal.
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My own desire to keep a New Year's resolution.
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And I realized that when I looked at how people responded to outer and inner expectations, that's what made someone an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel.
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Now of course I didn't have those those those terms right away.
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It took me a long time to figure out the terms but I saw the pattern, you know, and it and it was like a pattern of nature where everything fit and every example I could think of fit in some way.
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So it felt like, you know, the periodic table of the elements where you're like, this just works.
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Like it's got that solidity that you get in nature and I was like and it was just the most exciting moment of my intellectual life, I have to say. I I love it.
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I I I really enjoyed that same feeling of how psychology helps us group and understand understand ourselves.
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I think there's such a need for it and as much as we understand that everyone is genuinely very unique and diverse and different, there are these kind of foundational principles and aspects that kind of keep us in certain groups with others.
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Tell us a bit about where did these tendencies come from?
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Like are they manufactured through school and family or are they things that we develop?
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Where Where does it Where do they actually come from?
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Well, I really do believe the four tendencies are hardwired.
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Like I'm a big believer in the genetic roots of personality generally and I think that you're an upholder, questioner, obliger, or rebel, you bring that into the world with you.
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Now, obviously your culture is going to affect it.
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Like if you're a questioner who's always questioning and you're in North Korea, you may be learn to keep your mouth shut.
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But if you're in Silicon Valley, that might be one of your greatest assets, greatest strength.
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Um and I think, you know, with time and experience, we all learn how to manage our tendency so that we we we at least we would hope that we would be able to gain from the strength of it and offset the weakness and the limitations of it cuz we sort of learn about ourselves and how to manage ourselves.
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So but I do think it's they it is something that you're born with.
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You're not one at 20 and one at 40.
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You're not one at work and one at home.
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These are consistent aspects of your of your nature. Yeah, absolutely.
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And And do you find that sometimes that I I agree with you, too.
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So I believe personality types are hardwired, too, and and the way we behave.
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Do you find though that sometimes almost that because one type of personality is demanding to us from work that often you find people jostling between two in terms of pretending and acting as opposed to being?
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You know, I think actually it's really hard to be inconsistent with your tendency.
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That it's pretty it's in it and that that will either either you'll steer yourself to a place where your tendency works for you or it's going to be a major source of conflict.
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Um and so maybe I should go through the tendencies so maybe kind of yeah.
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So there's there's a quiz if people want to take a quiz that like gives you an answer and spits out a report cuz some people get a kick out of that. If you just go to quiz. gretchenrubin.
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com, it's like 11 questions quiz. gretchenrubin.
19:12
com I'm going to go there now.
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I love quizzes and I love them. Yes. Uh like 2.
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8 million people have taken this quiz and it's free so you can get your little report.
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But the fact is most people know what they are just from the brief description that I'll give right now.
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They it's pretty these are very blatant.
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These are not subtle tendencies.
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You'll know what you are.
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You'll know the people at your workplace, people in your family, Game of Thrones characters, people in you know in Parks and Recreation, you know, TV shows, movies.
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It they're all around us. Anyway.
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So it looks at what how you respond to outer and inner expectations.
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So again outer is like a work deadline, inner is like a New Year's resolution.
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So upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations.
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They they want to do what others expect from them but their expectations for themselves are just as important.
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Um and so their motto is discipline is my freedom.
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They they want to execute and follow through.
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Then there are questioners.
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Questioners question all expectations.
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They'll do something if they think it makes sense.
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So they want justification, research, rationale, reasons.
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They resist anything arbitrary, inefficient, unjustified.
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Um so if something meets their own inner standard, they will do it no problem.
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If it fails their inner standard, they will push back.
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So their motto is I will comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers.
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Obligers readily meet outer expectations but they struggle to meet inner expectations.
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And so this is my friend on the track team.
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When she had a team and a coach expecting her to show up, she had no trouble showing up.
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But when she was just trying to go on her own, when it was her inner expectation, she struggled.
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And so the key thing for obligers to realize is if they want to meet an inner expectation, they have to create a system of outer expectation.
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If you want to read more, join a book group.
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If you want to exercise more, take a class, exercise with a friend who's going to be annoyed if you don't show up, you know, think of your duty to be a role model to somebody else.
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There's a million ways to create accountability once you realize that's what you need.
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So their Their is you can count on me And I'm counting on you to count on me.
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And then finally, rebels.
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Rebels resist all expectations outer and inner alike.
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They want to do what they want to do in their own way in their own time.
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They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do, but if you ask or tell them to do something, they are very likely to resist.
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And typically, they don't tell themselves what to do.
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Like they won't sign up for a 10:00 a. m.
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spin class on Saturday because they think, "I don't know what I want to do on Saturday."
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And just the idea that it's on my calendar is going to annoy me.
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Um so their motto is, "You can't make me." And neither can I.
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And obligers are the biggest tendency for both men and women.
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You either are an obligers or you have many obligers in your life.
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And rebel is the smallest tendency.
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It's conspicuous, but it's a small tendency. Okay, good to know.
21:50
Great great foundation setting for all of those areas.
21:53
So everyone upholders, questioners, obligers, or rebels.
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And Gretchen told me the quiz as well. quiz. gretchenrubin.
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com is where you can take that quiz.
22:04
So let's let's dive into all of them a bit more because I I want people to understand how they connect.
22:08
One of One of the big ones for me is what I find is how we we think everyone we we have two kind of we have the mirror belief where we think everyone thinks like us.
22:21
So we either perceive that, right?
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And then and then sometimes we run into the other extreme where it's like, "Well, no one thinks like me and I think differently to everyone." 100%.
22:29
I completely agree with you.
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You're either in one or the other.
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Either everyone is like me or no one is like me. Yes. Right.
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Which whereas with this framework, we start to understand that there are some people that think like me and there are some people that don't.
22:44
Tell us about how to communicate with each type in a way so that they understand because I feel like that's where we really see this come alive.
22:50
I know in my life where I've seen these tools become the most applicable is when I change the language and the way I speak to certain people because that's the language that they understand and resonate with.
23:04
Can you tell us a bit about those?
23:05
Yes, and I'll tell you where you can see this play out.
23:07
Not now because of the pandemic, but in general, if you go to the office kitchen and you look at the signage, you will see all the tendencies like in full blossom because everybody is coming to it from their own perspective and they don't understand why people disagree.
23:19
And you're exactly right.
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You can use the tendencies to really minimize conflict uh and procrastination and also just to show more compassion to yourself and more compassion to other people.
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So, I'll start with the obliger because that's the biggest tendency.
23:31
So, obligers need accountability and a lot of times other tendencies, like I'm an upholder is my tendency, will say things like, "Well, I don't want to be your babysitter.
23:39
Do it whenever it's right for you.
23:40
Like, I don't want to have to check on you."
23:42
But but but obligers do much better work when they do have accountability and when they do have deadlines and deliverables and check-ins.
23:51
On the other hand, rebels don't like that.
23:52
They don't like somebody looking over their shoulder.
23:54
They don't like somebody checking in.
23:55
They want to do what they want to do in their own way and if they feel like you're telling them what to do, even if you're praising them for what you're doing, they may start to resist.
24:03
And so, the kind of behavior that might be very effective and even necessary with an obliger could be counterproductive with a rebel.
24:10
Like, I I know a rebel who was working uh as a as a consultant.
24:15
He had a boss who said, "This is a really hard problem. I don't know what to do.
24:20
You've got the chops to deal with this.
24:22
Go away, figure it out in a month.
24:24
If you run into roadblocks, let me know.
24:25
Otherwise, come back to me with the solution."
24:26
And he's like, "That's how I do my best work."
24:27
But to an obliger, they'd be like, "What is happening?
24:31
Like, I have no like like I need a little more structure."
24:34
So, an obliger said to me, "When I when I try to apply for a new job, I say, 'I work best with a tough boss.
24:40
Are you a tough, demanding boss?
24:42
Because that's how I get my best work.'"
24:44
Uh questioners need reasons.
24:46
I When I talk to health care professionals, they know they know this kind of person very well.
24:50
Where they're like, "You're telling me to walk a mile before breakfast every day. Why a mile? Why before breakfast?
24:57
Why am I walking not running? What if I take a bike?
24:58
What if it's in the evening? I don't understand.
25:02
And it's like they will get on board, but they have to have their questions answered.
25:05
And if you say, because we've always done it this way, or because I'm the doctor and I say so, or because you said you would, or that's the law, they're like, I don't understand.
25:13
Like, this doesn't make any sense.
25:15
And therefore, it's illegitimate.
25:16
So, for the with questioners, you have to take the time to take them through.
25:21
And so, let's say you're in a work situation, you want to think about, well, how can I how can I give everybody what they need, but not burden everybody with what they need.
25:32
So, like, let's say you were going to implement a new software program.
25:33
You might say to a group, "Oh, you know, we're switching to a different software program.
25:38
I'm going to give you a 20-minute presentation about why we're doing this.
25:41
And then if you feel like you've heard enough, please feel free to return to your desk.
25:43
If you would like to stay here and ask me further questions about why we feel like this is the right decision, I'm happy to stay here until you really understand why we think this is the right course for our company."
25:53
Questioners get their questions answered.
25:55
Because, by the way, they often will just silently not go along with what people tell them to do.
26:00
And that can cause a lot of conflict and a lot of like, you know, inefficiency.
26:04
They need to have their questions answered.
26:05
But, you know, maybe the maybe the obliger's like, whatever, that's not my problem.
26:09
Like, I just tell me what you want me to do, and I I I got other stuff on my to-do list.
26:12
Um, so, when you know the tendencies, you can you can think cleverly about how to give people what they need, and not burden them with a lot of stuff they don't need.
26:22
Yeah, those are those are such great insights, whether it's workplace, whether it's family, you know, it's just we often wonder why people aren't, you know, motivated Yes. Yeah. Well, we are. Yes.
26:32
How do you how do you not get this? Like, Yes. you know.
26:37
And No, that's exactly what happens with the tendencies.
26:39
Everybody does what would work with their tendency.
26:40
So, questioners deluge people with with research and articles and and and data and get very tiresome.
26:47
People are like, too many had many questions, too much information.
26:52
Obligers see everybody's like, you keep saying this is important to you.
26:54
I don't understand why you're not doing it.
26:56
Like you keep saying you want to exercise.
26:59
Why can't you Why can't you keep your promise to yourself?
27:01
Rebels, people are like, why don't you ever do what I want you to do?
27:05
Um and then upholders, well, they get rigid.
27:07
They're like, oh, I'm sorry.
27:07
I have to go to bed at 10:00 p. m.
27:08
every night and I don't care if it's your anniversary party.
27:10
I got to go home cuz I'm going running at 8:00 a. m. You know what I mean?
27:14
So, when you understand that other people have a different perspective, a lot of times it makes you you're you might think, well, it's kind of annoying the way you are, but I'm not going to take it personally.
27:24
And I'm not going to feel like you're a jerk.
27:26
I just understand how you're bringing a different perspective to it. Yeah, for sure.
27:30
Are there are there any Then, in your perspective, what are the recommended occupations or jobs behind certain because I feel like uh often people may reflect and be like, oh, wait wait a minute.
27:42
I don't get to be this in my job or role or I'm not really playing this role.
27:45
Tell us a bit bit about Yeah, what are the Are there recommended jobs?
27:49
Does it mean you can't be a job?
27:51
How do you How do you almost create a pathway to success knowing your tendency?
27:56
Well, you know, there's so many qualities that make somebody good at a particular profession.
27:58
I think that just about any tendency could do just about any profession well.
28:02
Like I could imagine being a lawyer as an upholder, as a questioner, as an obliger, or rebel.
28:06
I think they would all do that really well.
28:07
But I also think that you're right that certain professions tend to value certain uh aspects of nature more highly and so people tend to do well.
28:16
Like I would say that question-asking professions may be scientist, journalist, might be particularly appealing to questioners cuz it just scratches that itch that they have.
28:25
It kind of gives them permission.
28:26
Um rebels, interestingly, often are entrepreneurs because they want to do things their own way.
28:30
They don't want to take advice for or or direction from anybody else.
28:33
Um they also often thrive in sales because with sales a lot of times it's like, listen, whatever you got to do to make that sale. Like, okay, fine.
28:40
You know, and so they have that freedom.
28:42
They often do better in in positions where every day is different.
28:47
Like I talked to somebody who was a restaurant manager.
28:48
So, that he was like, "I'm on the road all the time. Every day is different.
28:51
I'm always with different people.
28:52
Nobody really knows where I am.
28:54
They're not taking keeping track of me.
28:55
There was a lot of freedom and choice."
28:56
And that's really important to a rebel.
28:58
However, some rebels are very uh attracted to areas of high regulation, like the clergy, the military, the police, uh cuz they like to have something to resist.
29:06
They They need the energy of kind of pushing back.
29:10
Um upholders tend to thrive in places where it's pretty clear what does success look like, what are the rules.
29:16
They tend not to like things where there's a lot of uh emphasis on flexibility and like sudden shifts.
29:23
Like, "I'm working for a visionary leader who every day has a different plan."
29:25
It's like, as an upholder, I don't like working that way.
29:29
Um or where it's ambiguous uh what the rules are or what success looks like.
29:32
Uh they tend to make want to make a plan and execute it.
29:36
And questioners do not like to be in a place um where things are not justified.
29:40
Again, like a visionary leader where you're supposed to just like do what that person wants without justification can be very annoying.
29:46
And obligers really need that outer accountability.
29:48
Now, what's good is that usually the workplace is is kind of an easy place to get accountability cuz you automatically have deadlines and deliverables and a boss and a team and clients and students and all that.
29:59
So, often obligers will do very well at work and then they don't understand why they can't do equally well at home.
30:03
They don't understand, well, at work, I have all this accountability, this architecture that's keeping me in you know, going.
30:11
I need if I would create the same architecture for myself in my private life, I would also succeed with my private aims.
30:17
But I don't understand that I need to figure out how to create that kind of uh accountability um at home as well as in the office.
30:24
And so, for many obligers, that's like a huge light bulb to understand why can I keep my promises to other people, but I can't keep my promises to myself?
30:32
It's like that's just a thing that obligers experience.
30:36
Like, there's no shame in that.
30:38
There's no weakness in that.
30:38
You just fix it and then you're done. It's very simple.
30:41
It's not It's not easy, but it's straightforward. Right.
30:45
Yeah, let's talk about that actually.
30:46
How do you improve the natural weaknesses that come up in each uh and and which weaknesses do you focus on because often Yeah, let let's start there and then I'll follow up.
30:57
I don't want to get asked like three questions in one. Let's start there.
31:00
No, I know and I think you're exactly right.
31:01
This is the question because this is where we have the opportunity to to to grow.
31:03
It's like to see the weakness.
31:06
So like my my tendency as upholder and so I would say the weaknesses that you often see with upholders is rigidity.
31:10
Like we get it in our mind that something is supposed to happen a certain way and it's very hard to get off of that.
31:15
You know, it's like I remember I got invited to a wedding and they're like, "The bus is leaving for the church at 5:00."
31:20
And then the bride's mother was like, "No, we're it's actually leaving at 4:30."
31:23
And I was like, "Well, see that's not possible because I have a card."
31:26
And you know, it's like, "What?"
31:28
You know, that kind of rigidity.
31:30
And upholders can be kind of judgmental and cold because they're I'm like, "Hey Jay, we both have a report due on Friday and you want me to proofread your report, but like I got to proofread my own report.
31:40
I don't have time to help you."
31:41
To an to an upholder that seems right because I'm meeting my inner expectation, but to other people it can seem cold.
31:47
Like you need to like make an effort to extend yourself.
31:49
And and and upholders can be judgmental because things tend to come certain things come more easily to them than they do to other people.
31:58
Questioners need to learn how to ask questions in a constructive way.
32:00
They can seem disrespectful uh or like not team players.
32:05
If I'm a thin-skinned boss and you're asking me question after question, I start to think, "You don't trust my judgment.
32:10
You're questioning my authority.
32:12
You're not a team player.
32:12
I don't want to work for you."
32:14
So questioners need to learn how to ask questions in a way that don't make other people feel like they're on the stand, you know, or that they're being grilled.
32:21
Um or that there's cheekiness.
32:21
You know, a lot of times questioner children get in trouble because they're like, "Well, why should I do this dumb book report?"
32:28
It's like they're really are saying, "Why should I do a dumb book report?"
32:30
Um so they need to do that.
32:33
And also questioners can sometimes have analysis paralysis.
32:36
This is when their desire for perfect information makes it hard to move forward or to make a decision cuz sometimes in this world we have to we can't wait for perfect information, right?
32:45
You can what kind of email platform should I use?
32:49
I can research that for the next year.
32:50
You know, at a certain point they have to say it's more efficient to decide and learn and experiment than to keep than to keep researching.
32:57
For Obligers, their weakness is this it's not even a weakness, it's just a fact.
33:02
They need outer accountability and they have to get that outer accountability and so whether that's taking a class or teaching a class or thinking of your the your duty to your future self or your duty to be a role model or uh hiring a coach, you know, joining AA or Weight Watchers.
33:17
All these things are ways to create outer accountability.
33:20
Now, Obligers have an interesting phenomenon where they can fall into Obliger rebellion.
33:23
Yes, I was going to ask you about that.
33:26
I'm glad you brought it up.
33:27
So, they they meet meet meet and expectations and then suddenly they snap and they say this I will not do.
33:32
Um it happens when they feel like exploited or taken advantage of or unheard.
33:38
And sometimes it's small like I'm not going to answer your emails for 2 weeks and sometimes it's huge like I'm going to quit this job and walk out today.
33:44
Um and it's done to kind of blow up a situation that's become just kind of uh untenable for the Obliger.
33:50
But it can have very serious reputational consequences because to the other tendencies it doesn't make sense.
33:55
I'm like, Jay, I asked you if you wanted to be on this committee and you said it's okay.
34:01
So, I don't understand why you're so mad.
34:02
I don't understand that uh what you're already on seven committees and nobody else in this company is on more than two and that's not fair and so now you're rebelling because that's that's how Obliger rebellion gets started.
34:15
And then so for Rebels they can do whatever they want to do.
34:20
And so with the Rebel you just can't tell them what to do. Uh and that is hard.
34:23
Um it can be frustrating to live or work with somebody who isn't going to do what you tell them to do.
34:29
So, if you're dealing with a Rebel you either want to remind them of how it fits into their identity.
34:32
You're doing this cuz you're an athlete. You're an animal lover. You're a musician. You're a poet. You're a writer. This is who you are.
34:39
Or you'd give them information, consequences, choice.
34:41
Look, if you do your physical therapy, this happens.
34:43
If you don't do your physical therapy, that happens. Up to you.
34:48
Um that's what tends to work best with rebels because they want it and then sometimes off also they will work with a challenge.
34:53
Like I know a guy who quit smoking cuz his 18-year-old son, "No guy like you can never quit smoking." He's like, "Watch me." So he quit smoking. That's great. I love that one.
35:03
That's was I think when when I'm when I'm listening to all the descriptions, uh I definitely feel myself to be in the rebel category.
35:11
I definitely Interesting.
35:13
Yeah, I definitely find myself to and it's interesting that you brought out the both examples of the rebel category of the you you spoke about the army and the clergy, but then you also spoke about entrepreneur and it's interesting that obviously my life previously is living as a monk and and and now doing what I do today, it's it's I like how you're able to I think we look at tendencies as so singular. Yeah.
35:37
Like when you hear the word rebel, you wouldn't necessarily think of monk, but I often talk about how monk life was like the ultimate rebellion. Yes.
35:46
Because it was literally saying, "Well, this version of the world doesn't work.
35:50
Like this this path doesn't work.
35:50
I'm going to go find a completely extreme and different Yes.
35:55
uh a path to find Well, and I'll I'll tell you if you want to do some rebel monk reading, Thomas Merton, who was a very famous uh Carthusian monk who lived several decades ago, you read his journals because it is like diary of a rebel as a monk and it it is really fascinating and exactly that thing.
36:11
Like, "I'm going to do the extreme unexpected thing, the thing people think I can't do uh and I'm kind of going all the way."
36:18
And it's very fascinating how those how those Another thing and maybe this will resonate with other parts of your career, um I was talking to a guy who's a rebel who worked for I won't say the name of the company, but let's just say it's like a very big famous uh tech company that's well-known for being very controlling.
36:35
And I said, "How does a rebel like you work for a place like this?"
36:37
He's like, "Ah, they're working for me.
36:38
I'm going to start my own company. They're training me.
36:42
I'm getting paid to learn how to do all this stuff, and then I'm going to go off and I'm going to start my own company."
36:47
So, to him, they were all working for him. This is what he wanted. And I was like, right?
36:51
He's doing it in a rebel way, but it's allowing him to get wonderful experience at a really, really big, prestigious company.
36:59
And but he did it in a rebel way.
37:01
He found the rebel mindset that allowed him to do it.
37:03
That's what I love about what you're saying.
37:04
It's it's all about the mindset.
37:06
It's not what you're externally doing. Yes.
37:07
And and that the beauty of that is is that no matter where you are, if you go all in on the mindset that you naturally are, the tendency that you actually are, then you're guaranteed to find in that space what you want.
37:23
And so, what you just said to me resonates so strongly with me because I, after living as a monk, I obviously worked at Accenture for a company. Yes.
37:32
Accenture, big corporate organization.
37:34
That's what made me think of it. 500,000 people.
37:36
And the most amazing thing is that I was completely a rebel inside the company.
37:41
And so, it was that the mindset that you had I I never I don't think I have the I don't think I had the element of thinking people worked for me, but I definitely had that complete understanding of I'm here to learn. Yes. I'm growing.
37:53
Uh I'm I'm actually carving out a career path in the company that is so rare and unique that hasn't existed for 90% of people inside the company before.
38:03
And I'm going to go all in on that.
38:05
I don't believe I have to become the generalist.
38:07
I don't believe I have to become what they want me to become.
38:09
I believe I can create my own path.
38:11
But see, and your example is perfect for why we need all of the tendencies in a workplace because it's very when you're hiring, of course you you gravitate to people of your tendency cuz they think the way you think, they have the same responses that you have.
38:25
Everything seems very sensible.
38:27
But think of how your company would have lost out if they hadn't had your rebel entrepreneurial spirit and the way that you were able to see and be attracted to an opportunity that nobody else saw or wanted to pursue, right?
38:40
Maybe for whatever reason they're like, "Oh, why would I take that risk? Why would I do that?
38:43
Nobody's done that before."
38:45
Whereas for you, that's like catnip.
38:46
For other people that maybe was a turnoff, but they needed you there because they needed what you could bring.
38:51
And so I think when you're hiring or you're putting together a team, you need to be very careful.
38:55
Like I've had people say to me, "I only want to hire obligers.
38:58
Teach me how to screen for a bliger."
39:00
And I'm like, "Obligers are wonderful.
39:02
They're the rock of the world, but you don't want only obligers because you need the questioners to be like, 'What the heck are we doing this?'
39:08
You need the rebels to be like, 'Let's do something completely out of the box.'
39:11
You need to be upholders who are like, 'These We're going to We're going to execute.
39:14
We are going to surpass, and we have our eye on that excellent."
39:17
They all bring so much to it.
39:21
Um, and I think that your your your your history is a perfect example of why even somebody who's like, "And I like working with a rebel."
39:28
It's like, "Well, suck it up because you need that." Yeah, I know.
39:32
That's it's because all these examples you're giving me are making it more and more clear to me why I'm definitely a rebel and and it and it makes so much sense and it and it completely You know, it's it's it's almost like there's there's a beautiful verse that I quote in in my book think like a monk, but it comes from the Manu Smriti and it says that when you Yeah. Think like a monk.
39:55
Play I'll read it out loud if you can say it. Yeah.
39:57
When when you protect your purpose, your purpose protects you.
40:02
And and it's almost like and and when when we're using the word dharma or purpose in the monk context, it very much applies to a tendency or a personality type.
40:11
Uh, and and what I mean by that is it's almost like I feel like the work it world is constantly trying to get or at least maybe this is just a rebel experience.
40:22
So, you can tell me if it's just a rebel experience.
40:25
I feel like I've I've always felt like everyone is always trying to get me to not be a rebel.
40:29
Like I feel like I'm always being trying to be pulled and that maybe every person I talk feels that.
40:35
So, I'm not saying it's just me, but I've always felt that and and I've had people openly tell me that I had one executive who said to me, "Jay, you know, when you were at Accenture and you were dabbling in like social media and meditation and all that kind of stuff."
40:48
He was just like, "I was like, who's this kid?
40:49
He doesn't know what he's doing.
40:50
Like, he's going to ruin his career."
40:51
And and you know, he came up to me afterwards uh probably earlier on in my media career.
40:56
He was just like, "Jay, this is how I felt about you when I first saw you, but I'm it's really amazing that you proved me wrong and you found your own path."
41:02
And I was just thinking that I've always come across that resistance, which was like, "Really?
41:06
Do you really want to do that?"
41:08
Like, is that something that all uh tendencies experience or is that something specifically a rebel experience?
41:14
You know, I think that everybody feels that in their own way.
41:17
Um and it's So, I think questioners are like, "Who are these lemmings?
41:20
Everybody is just going along without asking why?
41:25
Like, who are you people?
41:25
Like, this makes no sense."
41:28
And the obligers are like, "Why is everybody telling me what to do?
41:32
Why are they Why am I always the one saying yes?
41:33
Why is you know, why am I the one struggling with boundaries?
41:39
Why Why can't other people just act like civilized people and do their part?
41:41
And I'm always the one picking up the slack."
41:44
And then the rebels are like, "Why is everybody trying to tell me what to do?
41:47
Just get out of my way and stop talking to me and I will do it."
41:49
Um and so, I think that uh and then upholders, of course, when you get upholders together, we're just like, "Why can't anybody else get their stuff done?
41:57
Like, we just are all you know And so, um I do feel like there is that aspect to it where you sort of feel like everybody's experiencing it, but people are experiencing kind of slightly different versions of it.
42:09
Um now, you're a rebel, but it's interesting cuz all the tendencies kind of tip in one direction or another because all the tendencies overlap.
42:17
So, there's rebels who tip to obliger, and there's rebels who tip to questioner.
42:20
So, rebels who tip to obliger tend to have more of a spirit of resistance.
42:24
They're like, you can't tell me what to do.
42:26
And even if it's something I want to do, if you tell me to do it now, I won't do it because I'm not going to let you think that you're telling what to do.
42:34
Then there are rebels who tip to questioner, and they're more like, I'm marching to the beat of my own drummer.
42:38
I don't care what you want me to do.
42:39
I'm going to do what I want you want to do.
42:40
Whether you want me to do it or not, I don't care.
42:42
I think you're a questioner a rebel who tips to questioner, which by the way is what Steve Jobs was, um, which is like I have my own path.
42:50
Doesn't really like, you know what?
42:53
I I I've got to do things my own way, but if you weigh in, it's not going to ignite the spirit of resistance to me one way or another.
43:01
Whereas rebels who tip to obliger really feel like if somebody tells them what to do, it's like they just have to resist and in a way that they become controlled in the negative.
43:12
Um, so then they have to manage that, I think a little bit.
43:14
I think you're I think you're a rebel who tips to questioner.
43:18
It's It's even more crazy because unless unless you really and and I don't I don't know if you do know this.
43:22
So, I am a like a huge Steve Jobs fan. Oh, well, there you go.
43:27
Probably cuz you're like, everything he says makes so much sense.
43:31
So, literally when you said that, I was just like, that's so funny because no one ever understands how I can be a Steve Jobs fan, and I'm fascinated by so much about him as a human, including his spiritual quest, too.
43:41
He He spent a lot of time with monks and spiritual traditions, and and and at the same time had had so many other complexities in his life, of course, like we all do.
43:51
But but yeah, I would agree with you on that definition.
43:55
I I've never felt the resistance.
43:55
I I was bringing up the resistance because I think it's such a important thing to protect your tendency in the sense of I feel like there's such a need for you to know truly what your tendency is so that you can go all in on that tendency with confidence because I think sometimes we we doubt our tendency. Yeah.
44:17
We we doubt like whether it's the right thing or we doubt whether it's a good thing.
44:22
Uh tell us about that that and like looking at it from a good or bad thing.
44:27
Sometimes we've been trained to believe that certain qualities we we actually have as a tendency are actually negative in the world but actually a positive thing for us.
44:38
Well, I think you're exactly right and it's it really saddens me when people say, "Well, I don't like my tendency.
44:41
I want to be this tendency. How do I change?"
44:43
And the thing is it's like they're all have strengths, they all have weaknesses, they all include people who are wildly successful and also people who are big losers.
44:50
And really when you look at the people who are the most successful, the happiest, the healthiest, they're really the people who have figured out how to harness the strengths of their tendencies the most effectively and then also how to offset the the limitations or the weaknesses of their of their tendencies most effectively.
45:06
Now, where you see this a lot is with Obligers because Obligers they they say, "Well, it's weak that I I I I rely on outer accountability.
45:12
I don't want to have to do that." Why is it weak?
45:16
It's a huge percentage of people need outer accountability.
45:18
Just put it in there and then you can get you can achieve your aim.
45:22
I don't I don't think that you need to transcend it or transform it.
45:26
It's just embrace it and like you say, go with it and then cuz you're going with the kind of the natural course of your of your stream, you're going to just your your little boat is going to float much faster.
45:37
Um and so and then so Obligers will often say that.
45:41
Now, sometimes Rebels say that because they can really get frustrated with themselves if they haven't figured out how to get themselves to do what they want.
45:48
So, if you're an entrepreneur but you can't get yourself to do the drudge work, well, that's going to that's going to slow you down.
45:52
Or maybe every time you decide that you're going to exercise every day then you immediately refuse to do it.
45:57
Um I know somebody who's like, "I decided I was going to give up carbohydrates and I went out the next day and bought a big loaf of sourdough bread because I'm not no one tells me what to do including me."
46:07
So, part of it is figuring out, "Okay, well, how do I do it?"
46:10
And I've heard from so many rebels who are like, "Everybody told me that there was something wrong with me, that I wasn't a real grown-up.
46:16
I couldn't get things done in the normal way.
46:17
And now that I know who I am, I I can embrace it and take pride in it and see the power of it."
46:24
Enormously powerful tendency.
46:24
Um and I can set things up in a way that will allow me to succeed in my own way.
46:31
And here's the thing about rebels, is a lot of times people make it worse.
46:32
I mean, I just I if you're the parent of a rebel or the spouse of a rebel or the boss of a rebel, you think, "Oh, I'll make a list.
46:40
I'll give helpful I'll make a star chart.
46:43
I'll give helpful hints and and reminders."
46:47
No, every time you do that, you ignite the spirit of resistance.
46:49
If you would just shut up and stay away, then the then the rebel would be like, "Oh, I do need to apply for a job or I do need to make my bed or I do want to get an A on the chem exam." And they will do it.
46:58
Um but people trying to be helpful um often do exactly the wrong thing.
47:05
And then again, then that creates the spiral of why can't I do the things that others tell me to do I want to do and maybe that I want to do for myself and yet there's something that keeps tripping me up in my own head.
47:16
Once you understand the pattern, it's very easy to say, "Oh, oh, you can't use a to-do list?
47:21
A lot of rebels don't like to use to-do lists.
47:25
This is a very common pattern." So, what do you do?
47:27
Here's these other things that rebels do to kind of get the place that other people use a to-do list for.
47:32
Or obligers, it's like people say, "I don't understand it.
47:34
I do really well on Weight Watchers and then I say to myself, why would I pay to go?
47:37
I know the whole routine. I don't need to do that.
47:41
I don't need the time and the money."
47:42
And then I gain all the weight back.
47:44
And it's like, "Oh, because I need the accountability."
47:46
So, maybe there's many ways to create that accountability.
47:49
Um once I realized that that's the key thing for me.
47:51
Uh so, now I have a lot more freedom uh to get where I want to go uh because I understand what I need.
47:58
And And there isn't a magic one-size-fits-all solution.
47:59
Like you say, we're all different and we need to take a different path, but we can all achieve our aim, even if we go different ways there.
48:07
Yeah, that's a great answer.
48:09
I I This is This is revelatory.
48:11
I feel like I'm getting a personal Four Tendencies masterclass. Oh, good. Yes.
48:16
And and I see And and I'm learning so much more about myself.
48:20
But And that's how I've always felt that I've become more confident about my tendency as life has gone on.
48:26
The more I've exercised it.
48:27
And and I feel like often, even if we are a tendency, we may not be exercising enough consciously enough where where we develop a confidence around it.
48:38
Um if that makes No, I think you're exactly right.
48:40
And I think probably it's because you've figured out how to succeed.
48:43
And so you have faith in yourself, cuz you're like, you know, I've I've figured things out in the past.
48:48
I'll probably figure this out.
48:50
I know what's worked for me in the past, so I can figure out like how to sort of replicate that.
48:54
Um I think what happens for some people is they've tried and and and they've gotten discouraged.
49:01
Um or they see other people around them using a certain method or a certain process or a certain curriculum and having great success.
49:07
And then they think, well, if my brother-in-law can do it, if my boss can do it, what's wrong with me?
49:13
Instead of saying, well, that's something that works for my brother-in-law.
49:16
But that doesn't that I maybe I'll try it.
49:17
It might be useful to think about if it worked for him, maybe it'll work for me.
49:21
I love a data point of one. Uh but maybe it's not.
49:23
And I think knowing your tendency makes You don't have to just throw spaghetti against the wall.
49:29
You can sort of be You can be targeted and say, this sounds like the kind of thing that would work for a questioner.
49:34
Uh cuz there's a lot of justification.
49:36
There's a lot of data here.
49:38
This is really like answering all my questions.
49:39
I feel like I can really get on board with this program.
49:41
Um like I don't eat carbs.
49:43
I'm like one of these really crazy low-carb eaters.
49:44
My father's a questioner, and he did so much research after I told him about it, and then he went into the low-carb world cuz he's like, "I'm completely convinced. I'm on board."
49:56
Whereas with me, I like Red Blood Book.
49:58
I'm like, "I'm doing this. That's all I need."
49:59
I don't Yeah, I just want just one authority.
50:01
Gary Taubes, that's all you know.
50:02
I read I read Why We Get Fat, and I'm like, "I'm changing everything overnight." I love that.
50:09
Yeah, and that's also what helps us have more compassion for other people. Exactly. Right?
50:12
Like I think that that's what's missing in the world right now in so many areas where we we kind of just don't realize that for some people it's going to take a year, and for some people it's going to take a day, and for some people it's going to take a book, and for some people it's going to take an overseas trip, or whatever it is.
50:29
Like it's just it's it helps you put so much compassion because you go, "Oh, I get it why I learned this quickly, and you learn it slowly, and you learned that quickly, and I learned it slowly."
50:39
Well, I had this exact experience with my husband.
50:42
So, my husband's a questioner, and I was filling out some boring form that we had to fill out as a couple, and that's why it's nice to be married to a polder cuz I know I'm the one that's just going to go ahead and get it done to get it off the list.
50:53
And he had changed jobs recently, so I didn't know his office address.
50:54
So, I called him and I said, "Hey Jamie, what's your office address?" And what did he say?
51:00
"Why do you want to know?"
51:02
And I would have said years ago before I came up with this, I would have been like, "Why can't you just answer a simple question?
51:07
Why does everything have to be long drawn out?
51:08
I'm the one doing all this work.
51:09
You're just slowing things down.
51:11
Are you jerking my chain?
51:13
Why are you so annoying?"
51:13
And now I'm like, he doesn't do anything unless he understands why.
51:16
That it's it's like he's like that with me.
51:19
He's like that with everybody.
51:20
I might be annoyed by it, but I don't have to be hurt by it.
51:22
It's no reflection on our relationship.
51:23
And I know what should I have said?
51:25
I should have said, "Hey Jamie, I'm filling out that boring bureaucratic form.
51:28
What's your work address?"
51:30
And he would have told me no problem.
51:31
He just needs to know why.
51:31
And so again, it's like I don't take it personally anymore cuz I know that's just that's just where he's coming from, and a lot of times I benefit from it.
51:39
It's great for me in many ways to have a questioner in my life.
51:41
I'll say to him, "I feel like I have to do this. Do I have to do this?"
51:45
And he'll be like, "Why would you do that?" I'm like, "You're right.
51:48
I'm not going to do that."
51:49
You know, it's very freeing for me to consult with him.
51:52
Yeah, I I love what you just said that you you said, "I'm allowed to be annoyed, but but I'm never hurt by it." Yeah.
51:59
And I think that that's true that you know, and eventually what you explained, you realize you're like, "Actually, I don't even need to be annoyed by it.
52:06
It can actually help me." Yes. Yeah.
52:10
It's a refreshing perspective because half the things we argue about, whether it's with our spouses or or girlfriends or people in the workplace, is usually just because we're speaking in different tendencies. Yeah.
52:22
It's usually not that much deeper than that.
52:24
And the problem is that we we take it to be hurt and emotional Yes.
52:31
disconnect, an emotional distance.
52:31
Tell me about Is there a recommended partner or friendship Mhm. type?
52:36
Like, are you meant Should you marry someone or should you Obviously, you taught us how we can adapt, but is there a recommended friend type or business partner or marriage?
52:48
Well, here's the most striking pattern.
52:49
If there is a And you can tell me if this is true for you.
52:52
When you have a rebel who's paired up either in romance or in a work life, like a founding team, if one person is a rebel, almost always the other person is an obliger.
53:02
Now, there are exceptions, and they usually It's funny, the exceptions themselves fall into very distinct categories.
53:08
But almost always if there's a rebel, they're paired up with an obliger because questioners and upholders tend not to work well with rebels, but obligers do work well with rebels.
53:19
And actually, obligers are the They're the kind of type O, appropriately.
53:22
They are the ones that team up the most easily with all other three tendencies. Um which is good.
53:28
They're the biggest tendency, and they they do the best with the other three.
53:31
Um upholders tend to do very well with questioners.
53:35
Um I'm an upholder married to a questioner, and that tends to be very consistent.
53:37
Again, they can work with obligers, they can work with rebels.
53:39
Um but rebels and upholders are kind of the two opposite.
53:43
They're the most extreme personality types.
53:46
They tend not to work well together because just what they value is so different.
53:49
So like I maybe as a rebel you experience this, there's a lot of value on spontaneity.
53:52
There's a lot of value, let's let's keep things open.
53:56
Let's let things play out. Let's see how we feel.
53:58
As an As an upholder I put no value on spontaneity.
54:00
I would have a plan for everything.
54:02
I just like to live that way.
54:04
Well, that's hard for us to work together because I'm trying to plan out six months and you're trying to keep the our days open.
54:09
Um, or you might like have a vision and be like, let's rethink the priorities of this company.
54:16
And I'm like, but I've made, you know, I've have such an extensive execution plan.
54:20
It's distressing to me to like throw it all away, whereas you find that like very liberating and freeing and creative.
54:26
Um, I find it creative to dig deep and execute over the long term.
54:30
So it's not that they can't, but it's often that they like to work in such different ways that they end up just um, not not enjoying working with each other as much.
54:40
Um, in a big team you could you could have it, but if it's just like a pair, it can be hard. Yeah, that's it.
54:47
Yeah, that's that's a really that's that's really good to know, I think for people because, you know, obviously me and Gretchen are not sitting here saying don't marry someone who's not Right.
54:58
No, no, and there are many, many exceptions, obviously.
55:01
or break up with someone if they're not the right We're not saying that at all, but you've got to know what you're working with.
55:08
Whether you're dating or already married, you've got to know what to adapt to the the great example that you gave Gretchen about you and your husband having a conversation, you know, it's it's it can be so beneficial actually.
55:19
And if we don't just look at that difference as emotional, and I think sometimes we would take it too personally, too emotionally, and don't realize that it's it's a tendency.
55:27
Well, like I collaborate with a lot of rebels, and believe me, whenever I write an email, it's like, if this works for you, if this sounds fun, whenever it's convenient for you, something that you could do if you thought it would help you is this.
55:41
Because I know I don't I want them to be like, this sounds fun. This works for me.
55:45
This gets me what I want.
55:47
I will do it in my own way.
55:47
I don't want to accidentally push their buttons by like, could you please do this by Friday?
55:52
Because they're going to be like, uh yeah, I don't want to do it by Friday.
55:56
Cuz like I don't want to get in their way or my way.
55:57
So it's everything is the same.
56:00
I just be I just am careful to frame it in the way that will be sweet to their ears.
56:06
It's it's totally easy to do once I know that that's the way to communicate more effectively.
56:11
And that's true of everybody in our lives.
56:12
How does it work in the conflict in relationships?
56:14
So if there's a conflict in a relationship, do you some of these tendency in all the tendencies, do we tend to uh close off or open up?
56:25
Is it different for How does it work for the different tendencies?
56:29
Well, one point of conflict that comes up sometimes with Obligers is the other tendencies will say, "Why do you keep talking about this and you don't follow through?"
56:39
And they get very kind of exasperated.
56:40
"You keep saying you want to exercise.
56:42
You say you want to switch careers.
56:44
You say you want to write a novel in your free time." "Do it, don't do it. I don't care.
56:48
But I don't I'm I don't like seeing you just keep talking about it."
56:53
And so they get frustrated and they don't understand.
56:56
Now sometimes often sweethearts don't make good accountability partners and it's also very burdensome to be an accountability partner.
57:01
That's why many people hire coaches and you know, people like they you know, you hire somebody to do it so they're trained at it and they they're really good at it.
57:09
Um but if you understand that's what's necessary, a lot of times again that emotion drains out of it and you're like, "Well, let's get you what you need."
57:15
Instead of like, "Why am I get I'm getting frustrated with you?"
57:18
Or feeling like, you know, you're you're somehow like not keeping your promises to yourself.
57:23
Um with Questioners, um the conflict often comes from them feeling like people are asking to do things that are arbitrary. So here's an example.
57:31
Like somebody's like, if I said to my husband, like, we don't have a suburban house, but like something a friend of mine was just saying, she said to her husband, "Let's clean out the basement this weekend."
57:39
And he's like, "We never use the basement.
57:40
Why would we clean it out?"
57:42
It's like, that just doesn't make any sense to him.
57:43
But if she said something like And then she gets irritated cuz he'll never do it, you know, blah blah blah blah blah.
57:47
But if she said, "Oh, we're having company come in 2 weeks, and their kids need someplace to sleep.
57:52
If we clean out the basement, they can have a whole room to themselves.
57:56
Let's do it by, you know, by the time they come."
57:58
It's like, I see why I'm being asked to do this, and I see the timeline, and this makes sense to me.
58:03
You're going to have a lot less conflict if you present the reasons.
58:05
Um and then with the rebel again, it's like, a lot of times it's cuz I'm trying to tell you what to do.
58:10
And I mean, I we on the happier podcast, we had two people call in with questions like in the same 2 weeks where they had sweethearts who needed to look for jobs.
58:18
One guy had been laid off, and one guy was moving to a new city to be with his girlfriend.
58:25
And these One was a question, one was advice, and they're like, "What do I do to help my boyfriend look for a job?" And it's like, nothing.
58:29
These guys know they need a job.
58:32
Like, if you make a list and remind them, make a list of phone numbers, circle things in the newspaper, you're going to ignite that spirit of resistance.
58:39
Let them do it in their own way. They got this.
58:42
Just be Just let them do it in their own way.
58:45
That might not be your way.
58:49
You know, this is like when someone decides to clean out the basement at 2:00 in the morning cuz that's what they feel like. Don't get in their way.
58:53
Let them do it when they want to. Spontaneity. When they feel like it. Their choice. Their freedom.
58:59
Um but once you recognize that and what a high value it is, you can let the rebel do it. I love that. That's amazing. I actually love that.
59:07
Yeah, no, it's I I I really believe everyone needs to at some point dive deep into this uh work in their life, you know, because it's just it can solve so many issues in so many areas of our life simply by deeply understanding people and wanting to communicate with them in a way that actually and that is compassion. That is empathy.
59:29
That is a real connection. It's not a technique.
59:33
It's not a manipulation strategy. It's not a tool.
59:34
It's It's not to take advantage of someone.
59:36
It's to deeply speak to someone's wiring in their heart uh without without making it so difficult to understand someone.
59:44
So I hear this a lot from doctors, and nurses, physical therapists, occupational therapists, people like that where they do want to connect with their patients.
59:53
They They want so much to be helpful, to be of service, to help help people get out of pain, and get towards good health.
1:00:01
And they're very frustrated because they know that in many cases they are not successfully communicating and reaching those patients.
1:00:06
And so they're very excited to have a tool where you as you say, it's not about manipulation.
1:00:10
It's not about tricking somebody.
1:00:12
It's about speaking in a way that it's going to strike a chord with them in a way that's going to allow their actions to follow their thoughts.
1:00:20
You write about this all the time.
1:00:23
How do we put our our values and ideas into the world?
1:00:25
That's not always as easy as it sounds.
1:00:30
Um and so this is a way to kind of make that match uh more effective.
1:00:32
This understanding has made the biggest impact on where I am today and how I feel because in in the in the monk teaching it's called Dharma and the psycho nature is called Dharma and that's that's what I study.
1:00:48
And and when you look at the four tendencies, it's so brilliantly explained and I love the detail you go into of really helping someone understand which one they are.
1:00:54
So, anyone who's listening and watching, I highly recommend uh The Four Tendencies is a great way of getting some real self-awareness.
1:01:02
Take the quiz uh and and really dive into the people that you spend the most time with in your life at work, at home, at least start by knowing theirs.
1:01:11
You don't need to walk around with a four tendency radar like Gretchen would know anyone she meets in 2 seconds and will know what they are.
1:01:18
And you know, you You not be at that stage and you may not want to, but it's really important that you understand your your family and your work environment.
1:01:25
Like if you know those two environments and you know their tendencies, it's going to make a world of difference.
1:01:30
I know that we've been using these tools in our recruitment as well.
1:01:34
So I use a lot of these tools in recruiting people onto my teams because I want to build like Gretchen said a a complete holistic team where we have different people allowing us and I when I'm speaking at companies and if we ever use tools like this, we're always looking at like you want a company that ideally has a a equal split rather than be too far off in one or another.
1:01:53
So Gretchen, this is amazing.
1:01:55
I want to ask you your final five.
1:01:57
These are usually questions that are answered in one word or one sentence.
1:02:00
I'm asking you some really questions I'm curious about so you may go slightly over.
1:02:06
The final five are meant to be concise, but I give you permission in advance to not I'm asking stuff I'm really curious about.
1:02:14
Okay, so these are all picked up from things you've said.
1:02:17
I love this piece of advice and I'm intrigued by it.
1:02:19
You said it's better to have frequent, boring, mundane communication than to save it up.
1:02:26
I before I understood what you meant by that, it took me a while to wrap my head around it, but I love your explanation. So can you explain why?
1:02:36
When we talk to people often we have a lot to say and when we don't want to talk to them very often, we're sort of like, "I'm fine. How are you?" I am also fine.
1:02:42
And so like these little mundane details of our lives help us stay connected and and and kind of keep our our relationships more alive. Love it. Great answer.
1:02:51
So anyone who's wondering whether you should talk to someone regularly or not as regularly, regularly will be better. Second question.
1:02:59
I absolutely love the saying that you said, "The days are long, but the years are short." Expand on that for us.
1:03:07
I think of everything that I've ever written in my whole life.
1:03:09
Like I did a little video about a story called The Days Are Long But The Years Are Short and it just really resonates with people.
1:03:15
You know, sometimes getting from morning to night, it feels like an eternity, but then you're like, where did May go? Where did 2019 go?
1:03:23
Um, especially I think for the parents of young children, the days can seem very long, but the years seem very short. I love that.
1:03:29
Yeah, it's such a beautiful reminder for us as well and uh it has it has so much meaning to it. I love it.
1:03:35
Okay, question number three.
1:03:36
What are some of the common small challenges you've heard uh people made in their lives that significantly boosted their overall happiness and I love the one minute rule that you speak about.
1:03:45
Oh yeah, the one minute rule is that anything you can do in less than a minute you do without delay.
1:03:50
So, if you can hang up a coat or put a dish in the dishwasher or file something, you do it and that gets rid of kind of the scum on the clutter of life.
1:03:58
Another uh a quick uh lift if you need it is to jump up and down, do jumping jacks, run down the stairs, jump over a puddle.
1:04:04
It's quick, it's lively, uh it's kind of childlike.
1:04:07
Uh and another one of the easiest, quickest ways to intervene in your mood is to listen to one of your favorite upbeat songs.
1:04:15
Um it just it's one of the quickest ways to give yourself a boost. I love it. Okay, awesome. Question number four.
1:04:21
I know you love children's books. Yes.
1:04:23
I've heard that reading them before bed is a great way to unwind.
1:04:27
Uh I've actually been reading my friends have a six-month-old and I go over once a week or something and I read a bedtime story one of his books and we sit there and we lie on our backs on the floor and I read it and he loves like he's six months old and he goes yeah.
1:04:42
He loves like grabbing the book and and and it's really beau- I mean, children's books are just written so beautifully and I you know, I don't have a child yet, but I've definitely connected with them.
1:04:51
So, I I resonate with you.
1:04:51
Tell us some of the best children's books you recommend.
1:04:55
I love The Lonely Doll, I love The Seven Silly Eaters, Goodnight Moon, of course, Crazy Strange, Where the Wild Things Are. Oh yeah. Yeah, Mr.
1:05:02
Rabbit and the and the gift.
1:05:06
Um That's quite a lot already.
1:05:08
Yeah, uh those are picture books and then for chapter books, if you haven't read children's literature lately, you are missing out because there's so many great books.
1:05:16
You should read His Dark Materials, the trilogy and subsequent books by Philip Pullman, uh Kristin Cashore's uh Graceling trilogy, um you know, The Hunger Games is amazing by uh Suzanne Collins.
1:05:30
Uh I really I can't even like my mind is staggering because I love children's literature so much.
1:05:37
There's so much great stuff right now.
1:05:38
Uh Jason Reynolds is a fantastic writer who's writing today, won every kind of award.
1:05:42
Jacqueline Woodson, um anyway, there's so many great writers. Amazing. I love it.
1:05:47
And fifth and final question.
1:05:49
I've heard you say people know they don't want what they have, but they don't know what they want. Have you heard it?
1:05:56
Do you Do you remember saying this? Yes.
1:05:58
And I mean, it's hard I mean, I think you raised this at the beginning of the conversation, which is sometimes we don't know ourselves, you know?
1:06:04
We think we we know ourselves, but we we know what other people expect from us or we know what we wish we expected from ourselves.
1:06:12
And so sometimes you we or you know what you you don't want, but you don't know what you do want.
1:06:17
Like and back to my my career transition, I feel really lucky because I wanted to write a book so desperately.
1:06:22
It was like the Death Star pulling me in in its tractor beam.
1:06:26
Like it was very clear to me what I wanted.
1:06:27
There was a lot of times when people are making a career shift, they know what they don't want, but they haven't figured out what they do want.
1:06:33
And that's when you have to like read What Color Is Your Parachute?
1:06:36
and like do all that soul searching.
1:06:36
And that's painful and hard um because people know what they don't want, but they don't know what they do want. Absolutely. Thank you, Gretchen.
1:06:45
And that's your final five.
1:06:45
Thank you for being on purpose.
1:06:47
Everyone who's been listening, go and grab a copy of The Four Tendencies if you enjoyed this conversation.
1:06:52
Uh keep listening to On Purpose and make sure you tag me and Gretchen on Instagram with your biggest insights, anything that she shared or said that really resonated or connected with you, please do tag us.
1:07:02
I love seeing uh Uh, are the messages that you're really getting from these podcasts?
1:07:07
And I'm sure she'll be happy to see them as well.
1:07:09
And keep coming back to On Purpose. Thank you so much.
1:07:12
Gretchen, thank you for coming. This was Thank you.
1:07:14
It was so fun to talk to you. I so appreciate it.
1:07:15
Hey everyone, my name's Jay Shetty and welcome to my YouTube channel.
1:07:20
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1:07:27
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