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out the details at ring.com slash tim this offer is for US residents only this episode is brought to you by helix sleep last year I focused on dramatically improving a few things surprise surprise most notably the quality of my sleep which seems to affect just about everything this led me to revisit you name it my daily routine
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at helix sleep comm forward slash Tim that's helix sleep dot-com for slash Tim for 125 dollars off your mattress order take a look helix sleep comm forward slash Tim why hello boys and girls ladies and germs this is Tim Ferriss welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where it is my job to sit down with
world-class performers of all different types and this is going to be a different one to tease out the mental models favorite books and so on that you can test and apply in your own life this episode features the amazing Marcella otha Laura ot ' a lor a you might not recognize that name but you'll get her
bio after this intro and understand exactly why I so wanted to sit down with her this interview was recorded live at the psychedelic science summit here in Austin Texas which you can learn more about at psychedelic science org it was organized by maps all caps M ApS standing for the multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic studies and
featured presentations from founder of maps Rick Doblin mycologist Paul Stamets addiction expert dr. Carl Hart and many many more you can learn more about maps and their training for aspiring psychedelic therapists that is above-ground legal psychedelic therapist at maps org forward slash training also
we compiled extensive resources for this episode and to make them easily accessible links to everything further reading next possible steps etc you can go to tim dot blog slash therapist and it will take you straight to where you want to go so tim dog forward slash their epistle take you directly to the blog post for this
podcast episode and you can scroll down to the show notes for links to everything that we mentioned and everything you could possibly want so be sure to check that out tim dot blog forward slash therapist there were a few small glitches in my audio at the very beginning of the interview but my microphone was very quickly replaced so
thank you for your patience for the first few minutes it's intelligible and it improves after the first few minutes so all that said without further ado please enjoy this wide-ranging interview with Marcela da da da I'm so excited about this interview I know a lot of you are too Tim Ferriss and Marcella otah Laura who is a Maps
person Tim Ferriss is a supporter of maps and a psychedelic and the psychedelic research and shifting the beliefs about psychedelic medicine in our culture and for that we are very grateful he has been called a cross between Jack Welsh and a Buddhist monk by the New York Times he is one of past
company's most innovative businesspeople and an early-stage tech investor he is the author of five number one New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers including the 4-hour workweek The Observer and other media have named him the Oprah of audio due to the influence of his podcast the Tim Ferriss show which has exceeded 400
million downloads his latest book is tribe of mentors short life advice from the best in the world and he is one of the world's most popular podcasters we are so thrilled to have him Marcella is a psychotherapist and an installation artist her interest and focus on trauma has led her to understand the healing
process as an intimate reconnection with one's essence through love integrity acceptance and honoring of the human spirit in addition to working with trauma and PTSD she has dedicated her professional life to teaching and research she uses art as a vehicle for deepening the relationship to self others and the natural world Marcella
worked as a co therapist in maps very first government-regulated mdma-assisted psychotherapy study in Madrid Spain and she has served as the principal investigator for maps phase two mdma-assisted psychotherapy study in boulder colorado and currently in the MDMA healthy volunteer study and phase 3
site also in Colorado additionally she is a trainer and supervisor for therapists working on map studies for mdma-assisted psychotherapy I would say one of the things that I think of when I think of Marcela is if there was one person that I would want to put my future training in the hands of or my psyche or my soul in the hands of she
would certainly be maybe one of the top two people in the world so I have great respect for the work that she does on behalf of maps please welcome Tim and Marcela to the stage to discuss Marcela's work as a psychedelic therapist and maps therapist trainer thank you which good day everyone thank you for
coming this is the third participant Molly the dog not named after any particular molecules and this session we have lots of time for we have 90 minutes it is a good stretch we may not go that long we will see we're gonna surf the waves and I'm thrilled to be here after that intro please give me time to
disappoint it's all downhill after that bio I'm very good at writing them in third person and I really just want to jump in while you're gonna sit at sentry duty Aaron les thanks for this topic I think is a good idea and Marcella I think we could just start at the beginning if you could tell us a little bit about where
you're from where you grew up just to give us a little bit of context sure I grew up I was born and Columbia and I was raised there I came to the state's when I was 20 mm-hmm and when you were in your childhood or early teens you can pick what did you think you want it to be when you grew up or what you would be
this is kind of like a edgy story because what I wanted to be was a fire truck going to be a fire truck yeah I wanted to be a fire truck Wow that that's incredible I think we should dig into this so this was not an enhanced vision of what you wanted to be this was this was this was a decision you can't do as a little girl how did
you decide on fire truck what was the appeal of the fire truck shiny and red and they had ladders and hoses all true usually like dogs yeah the team and you could and it was just like you could you could literally block a road like you had that much power like you could just walk around and you know what
was interesting is that a lot of people when I told them that they would say do you mean a fire person I said no a fire truck and everybody thought it was either like oh poor thing you know like oh my god okay or like I hope somebody tells her or something like that but my mother worked at the mental health
hospital and I used to love going there and playing cards with all the inmates it was something that I really where I felt safe actually and so there was this man his nickname was force for Itoh which means a little match he was a para maniac and he asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up and I told them and he
was the first person ever who said wow do you mean like one of those red fire phosphor Ito got it yeah he totally got it why did you feel safe in that environment why do you feel comfortable in that environment in the hospital well and how old were you roughly when I decided to be a fire know when you when you were playing cards with us yeah I I
started maybe when I was around 12 and I it's kind of like what I asked for my birthday every year to go spend time there and play cards and talk to people and I think it was where I felt seen I think I was I came you know I grew up in a country where civil wars started when I was born practically and it wasn't
safe and I saw a lot of things happen because of the war on drugs and just a danger of the city where I grew up and my family of origin wasn't safe there was a lot of abuse and so it was like I could be with people who didn't care about that yeah there's a I suppose of purity in a way yeah good insulation yeah so the the
feeling scene I think will probably be a perhaps a theme that carries through the conversation but if we flash-forward where did interest in psychedelic therapy or exposure to that begin how did you end up finding your way to that subject or path so I I ran away from home when I was 17 and ended up in the
streets and I was homeless for a while which was probably one of the hardest experiences I ended up with like the wrong crowd after that and spent a year in a really abusive situation and then I decided to kind of like find a way to escape so so my escape was to come to the United States I had been here when I
was 12 and I loved it it was one of those experiences where you know like when you when you have all this expectations of a place and you think what's gonna look like this or is gonna be like this and it never quite matches well it matched and it was when reading Dick and Jane books you're too young for
it no I remember taking joy it was like Dick and Jane and spot yeah I just it made me want to come to the States they had like back doors where you didn't have to lock it and they had can't cookie jars and it was great and so it just matched the town that I ended up in where were you where in the u.s. in Boston Boston a little while
outside of Boston so I really wanted to come back and I came back it was really hard I was alone didn't have money didn't you know had this little scholarship to go to college and so I started I think part of it was that I thought if I left the traumas would go away like that I somehow would surpass it and if I could forget about it it
would be gone and so I think that was my my thinking and of course that doesn't happen and I lived six years with a lot very restricted life didn't really talk to people it was just really difficult and my world was pretty small and then I had never done any kind of drug ever I had not even smoked pot and I took him
DMA recreationally for the first time and what I did was it brought back everything and it was I wasn't ready for that I thought it was just going to be oh this is gonna be something great it's gonna feel good you're gonna feel good and it was the opposite it was really challenging and I was not in a safe
environment I wasn't with people who could really hold that who could understand that and it was more like fear oh no what is happening to this person and so I knew that like I knew that it wasn't safe so it made it worse and I ended up in the hospital and then a friend ended up in the hospital because you're the people around you
thought you're having a panic attack or self-administered yes so then a mutual friend of Rick's and I asked Rick if he would do MDMA with me and I think what it was who was that even though it was a really traumatic experience I also knew that there was something really powerful about the fact that I couldn't lie anymore so it's a dog it
had unlocked all of that yeah so so I did MDMA with Rick and a couple of other people and they held the container and it was like I saw myself for the first time the self that you had lost yeah what did what did Rick or other people involved and it doesn't have to be exact phrasing but say to you or do to make
you feel comfortable going back into that experience what was the lead-up as opposed to the session what did that look like it was about totally being okay with whatever came up like I couldn't do it wrong you know and I think you know you said that to me in the green room you're like you can't do this wrong and it was like so helpful
it's okay to be you right no it's okay to mean what you are and so I thought that and and it was like wow there is this person that has rights I felt like all my rights had been taken away so I had rights for the first time in my life like I had an inkling of it that I had rights and that I mattered and that
there was somebody in there that actually didn't have drama somewhere in there so you have this experience what happens in the days and weeks after that experience that's a good question I think I did it three times maybe two within the course of a month or two I was very fortunate because I was able to stay in Rick's
house so I it was sort of like a secluded place for me to be before I had to return to my life and I was able I read a lot I wrote a lot and I read and I tried to capture what had happened sort of like this idea of a lack of self-consciousness that had happened and I think up to that point my self-consciousness was all about fear
and not belonging and here was like how like there is this like lack of self-consciousness like it's it's okay it's okay if you cry it's okay if you laugh it's okay and I think that we provided that too like I could be alone I could dance around I could eat I couldn't not eat I could just be so it allowed me to just
begin a process of of understanding what was going on and I think some of what was going on was that I looked at that for the first time I could look at it I wasn't looking at trying to make sense of the trauma I was my symptoms were completely appropriate for what had happened in my life it wasn't crazy
it was completely appropriate and I you know I gave me freedom it gave me freedom to explore some other things and to things like well maybe I do have a say in how I live my life and and I started you know I started trying like little things of testing that while I was in those in those days afterwards so
I started this a day without learning like I wanted a whole day without learning anything could I do that and a day when I said no to everything so testing this ability to have some say about my life so that was what it was either like you know the days after that what did the space look like or journey as buzz from that personal
experience to wanting to be more involved as a facilitator or a therapist I think because of my own suffering and having had quite a bit of therapy before then I I did have therapy before that experience and it just didn't work that much it wasn't very helpful I had a diagnosis of schizophrenia that was like the first
diagnosis I had and I think it was you know that I realized that so many people could not understand trauma could not understand like the symptoms of trauma so I thought like wow like it actually saved my life you know I felt like it was just something that was giving me this opportunity and I was a teacher at
the time and I just thought like I really want to do this I want to do this for other people I want to be able to help other people Rick started Maps a couple of years after that so he and I he did our work the year before MDMA was criminalized in 1984 I was 25 26 and so I thought we're really far away from that like I I couldn't imagine
that it would ever happen that you could be that there was a potential of being a psychedelic psychotherapist but I was determined that I wanted to work towards that and it took me a few years I went to graduate school for art and taught some more and then went back to school so that I could become a psychotherapist
and be ready here you're paddling for the Waverly and you've done so much good work and helped so many people who are some of the influences outside or what are some of the influences outside of Rick who have shaped how you've approached becoming the therapist you are today mmm cloudy or Naranjo who died recently
he was definitely I was I've resonated a lot with the way he did the work and so he was one of my heroes and I I tend to look for books and writings not through psychotherapy so much I read those sometimes but they feel like work and so I think a lot of the inspiration comes from arhuaco Indians in the mountains of
Colombia the way that they approach life through psychedelics and their healing the way they heal so their stories are very powerful to me I lived very close to them for a year before I came to the States and I read a lot about artists so there's different artists that have written about how to be an artist and I
think what it is is that they're very genuine and they talk about themselves in a way of this is where I come from this is the struggles that I've had as an artist this is where I go and and so it's so important to do this work I think Agnes Martin is one of my favorite artists and she wrote extensively about how she came to her
work and she was very private an introvert I tend to be the same way so there was a lot of things that resonated with me about her and you know she had this idea that about perfection that was really beautiful like she said you know perfection doesn't exist in the world but the reason why we're so attached to
it is because we can imagine it and so those kinds of information are really great for when you work with somebody with trauma so I would say that that has influenced me the most and for those people who are here or listening who don't recognize Claudia's name there's a fantastic books either the healing journey or a healing journey
about much of his work which is very well written I mean the introduction alone is worth the price of admission with the book and on the I'd never thought of it quite this way before but as you're talking about art it it really made me think I've been taking art classes for the last few months right
and mostly drawing charcoal working with pastels different types of different types of tools with the ultimate goal of getting to at least as the next step painting and working with color but the point that was made to me over and over again by my teacher is in effect you're not learning to draw you learning to see
you have to learn to see at first and you need to draw what you see and not what you know because you might look at a chair and then look down at your paper and draw your concept of a chair but you've stopped seeing and I can see how that could apply to listening and hearing and really translate to a lot of
the work that you do and if we look at your beginnings there really wasn't an established path to become what you wanted to become or at least I would imagine that there were resources but very scattered and certainly scattered resources also exists today but things have have changed quite a lot and things are developing very quickly for people
who are listening and this has been a challenge for me to decipher as well because I have many in my audience many friends who come to me and ask the question of how to become a psychedelic therapist and I don't have a really straightforward answer for them and I know it's it's a sort of a process that
is is evolving but as it stands right now if someone listening is interested in becoming a psycho a just kind of a psychotherapist a psychedelic therapist of some type how would you suggest they think about it and I suppose there are at least two buckets you have people who are starting from scratch in the sense that
they don't have any of the credentials or academic qualifications that might help and then you have the folks who maybe are already on second base and just have to kind of round the corner but if someone were starting from scratch because we're looking forward we're recording this in late 2000 nineteen hopefully in the next few years
at least MDMA hopefully also psilocybin will have completed successful phase 3 trials and been reclassified meaning the legal status will have changed to enable some degree of prescription for people who want to start preparing for that where do they start what do they need to know I think the first part is do your work
do your own work really understand who you are how your experiences have shaped you how comfortable you feel with your own suffering I when I do trainings I tell people the only way to not be afraid of someone suffering is if you're not afraid of your own and to do that we have to know and have done our own work
so I would say that that would be a really important one because psychedelic work is not easy and we do experience a lot of trauma in the room that comes out in various ways and also to pay attention to therapies or modalities that honor the person as the expert of who they are because no matter what you know you can be poor and you can be
uneducated you're still the expert of your experiences and who you are so no matter who you are and and I say that just because so many people take away that those rights of people who are marginalized so to really be able to to study and be around and read about honoring the human being as they know more about their
healing than anybody does and can we respect that and approach that one of the principles for our training is that we believe in their capacity for self direction and for their own development and that we also believe that they have a healing intelligence that will show up and that we can work with that and we
can honor that so it's not like this hierarchical model is more like can we meet somebody at this level together and collaborate and create trust and and empower them to be able to understand and to know where their path is and to to really respect that path and to feel that our our own experience of ourselves
that there's room our reality makes room for the reality of another human being that there is room to accept that reality so I would say that you can start there so there's some therapies that are good you know humanistic therapies and client-centered therapies that you could study but also that there's a lot of work that you can do on
your own so it seems like we could almost separate the preparation and development into skill set on one hand which is sometimes then overlapping with qualifications it to be a legal psychedelic therapist so let's talk more about the skill set for a bit because I think that's what we're talking about
there are certain modalities and I had the the good fortune to sit through some trainings through maps I even though I am effectively auditing I'm not currently preparing to be a a psychotherapist but I really wanted to get a better understanding of the training that exists because one of the big questions for me is how do we
ensure a an acceptable level of quality as the number of therapists is scaled through different training approaches and it's time-sensitive right so I sat in and in the training and just to underscore a few things that you said the protocol seems to really take as a base assumption that there's a lot of
self directed healing that there's some type of inner healing intelligence and I remember sitting in the training and in this case it was with a Michael and a knee mid Hoffer and Michael said it's always challenging to do these trainings because we're showing you video clips of the interventions or when we interact
but the vast majority of the time we are doing nothing we're present paying attention but the the patient is doing their work and IRA but I took a lot of notes in the process of sitting through multiple days of of learning and I remember one thing that stuck out which was from the founder of ifs and I always
mispronounce is it internal family systems and I can't remember the gentleman's name but there's this abacus right what was this and it's a it seems to be a really valuable framework for some therapists and people can look into this on their own but he has yet an acronym wait for therapists to remember and it stands for why am i talking yeah
which I thought was just genius and are there any other modalities that you think are particularly helpful and translate well into the mdma-assisted psychotherapy of course not just the session there's the pre and the post but for instance would is how come--as is one that comes up when allah could you
could you describe that and if and your thoughts and I'm not her call me therapist but I think homie what I have seen people who have studied her Comey they are following they are tracking what is it that is coming from the participant what is it that they are meeting and how do I trust them to really give me the
information to be able to support them so I think a Comey is one of them internal family systems is too mostly because in you know I see it every single time that in especially in MDMA sessions that parts come out and it happens really naturally and I think you know we all have parts and people always say like oh like you know where does
that come from but we all have parts you know people always say like oh a part of me wants to go to that party and a part of me doesn't want to go that's a part and not necessarily that you need to study internal family systems but have knowledge of multiplicity of parts show up the inner healer is a part and when
do they show up and how do we how are we really present with that maybe the part that shows up is five years old and if it's five years old we don't want to talk to them like they're 40 you know we want to be able to be be sensitive to the fact that this is a five-year-old part what do I need to do to connect to
this part so I think parts work is really important familiarity with non-ordinary States you know I it's hard for me to think of being able to do this work without having had some experience yourself of a non-ordinary state to really it's because it's hard to explain right it's hard to explain what it's what it does
very difficult to explain are there are there certain tools that you've found helpful of course we could talk about the things that are gray or gray area or not so a gray area in terms of molecules that can help with this and just for people who are wondering on spelling hikami sha kom i if you want to look it up
are there any tools that you have found particularly helpful whether that's holotropic breathwork or other breathwork or other legal means to induce non-ordinary states of consciousness for people who recognize and agree that it would be important to have the first person experience yeah but before presuming to know how to handle someone
else and going through that experience yeah well I wanted to say a couple of things about that so we we do have a study currently called Mt 1 which Rick mentioned briefly this morning was that this morning yes he said he talked a little bit about Mt one so empty one is is a study designed to for the therapist
themselves to have the experience of MDMA so they it's a five day process they come for a preparatory session then they have a treatment session integrative session and a treatment session an integrative session and one of those two treatment sessions is a placebo and the other one is for MDMA and so the therapist get the experience
not only you know some of them have had and they may before and in in a different context sometimes even recreationally and this but this feels their friend because it's exactly the setting that they're gonna be in there's two therapists there's music the goes on that the whole day there's times for them to go inside and
times for them to connect and and relate and so it's if so many of them have said this has this has really solidified my training now I really do feel ready to go and do it so that's great and we have it the the other part of that mt2 which is what we want to continue when we do trainings with people to give them and
that's and it's in the fda right now it's like negotiations with the fda for that study so i think that is great and I hope we can you know we are able to continue that work but holotropic breathwork is one way to really get into a non ordinary state it's um in a way that is legal ketamine is another way you know like it
ketamine work does create that I think meditation does that sometimes certain yoga does that as well so it's like really being able to say what is it what does this actually feel like when my ego is not the most important part when I when I'm starting to connect to kind of like it I studied transpersonal so is this idea
of that we are in relationship to our-our non-ordinary states that it is beyond the ego and how can we go there so to have that experience I think it's really really important and participants are asked you know if they always I say have you done this you know and they there's just a sense of calm for them
when you say yes I have what are the as things stand right now legal checkbox or qualification checkbox checkbox is needed if one wants to be a psychedelic therapist a few years from now or five years from now and I don't know the answer to be perfectly honest as part of there is no so excited about having this conversation is that to
satisfy the demand safely and adeptly of that the reclassification of some of these compounds will bring there needs to be a quite a large funnel of people who are interested in understanding at least what the roadmap might might look like and what we'll talk about other may be a reality is that people should be
aware of before they sign up we'll get to that but first what does the training process look like is there an educational requirement do you have to have gone to college are there things you can do in two years what what does the path look like so some of that is in the negotiation right now at the FTA in terms of
are who are therapy pairs can be you know one thought is that any one of them needs to be a PhD which I'm totally opposed to because I don't have a PhD and so then I still want to be able to do this work and and I think it's really based on psychotherapy experience not necessarily if you're a PhD and MD or not
so hopefully that won't be the case right now we have a one clinician is licensed and the other one doesn't have to be licensed but they still need to have done at least three years of work in a mental health profession so it could be a nurse it could be an MD it could be a psychiatrist it could be a chaplain there was there was some some
question about chaplaincy early on and that could be another one and then psychotherapists and different clinicians but they don't have to be nice uns and so they just for clarity what type of license are we talking about so like having a license to be a psychotherapist to to be able to say that you're a
psychotherapist in different states have different requirements for that so so that's what we've done and what we hope to continue doing to do their own work to have experience with working with trauma with adults it's it's a really important one and then also if they're affiliated with an existing site then there's more probability because the
sites when people apply they apply as a site so there's at least two therapists or two clinicians who are going to sell and they you do need to have an MD to hold a Schedule one license and then a facility right a facility where you can actually do this safely set in setting is so important right so a place that
really feels comfortable that where they can be and everybody can feel safe and the participants can feel safe so um so those are some of the requirements that we have we've trained about 500 therapists so far and about 150 of them have gone through the whole certificate program our program is a five-part so
the first part Part A is online is an online course and then Part B is one week in in-person course which is the one that you did right I did the online as well so I did the part 1 and part 2 okay great and so a lot of people have done those you know like the people that have trained have done those two parts
and then a Part C is when they do they either have they do a training that they think would be really valuable to do this work somatic is something that I didn't mention somatic work is really important because trauma is definitely held in the body and MDMA is very somatic so sometimes people do those kinds of trainings and that fulfills
that Part C and another the way that we want to do it is through this M t1 or MT to that where the therapists can come and take MDMA and a safe place and the same way they're gonna do it and so where they maybe consider another person doing it as well with one of us and then so you get this really nice experience
right that is right hands-on and then the next part is within their sites they do role plays that are then that they can then let us know and they have to write about them and we we get we give them supervision based on what happened in the world place and the role plays are based on real-life experiences and
questions come up and things you know like oh I I didn't know how to do this or they just get more and more help because they're doing this kind of role play role playing and then we would also supervise their first participant at their work so one of our supervisors would be watching their videos and like really extensively as part of our training
we've done that where we looked at their videos and given them feedback and you know we're talking about like eight-hour session videos so so for people who are listening who do not have academic or medical credentials currently but they want to explore the first few steps of putting themselves into a position where
they can perhaps sit in the room with someone else who is licensed if you want to become a licensed psychotherapist you can figure that out on your own but let's assume that that is not in the cards for people who are listening but they want to be that second person or put themselves in a position where the
odds are increased that they'll be able to do that what what are some first steps that you might suggest to them aside from the experiential the first-hand experiences but the actual prerequisites for moving in that direction I'm not sure I I hope I understand your question correctly but in order for them to get to that place
of being able to really sit then they need to have had these things that I've mentioned you know they need to have some experience working with trauma and that they're working towards either licensure or that they're in the process they're registered or you know that they're in the process of it and if just we made it specific that was a terribly
worded question that I gave you had a very long one I was like a paragraph you can ask in Spanish brain vomit up what if I or any way I could I could I think it would be even four but we'll see we'll see how well my caffeine kicks in so porteño trucho the deagle aware that intensive we should do in english so
the now my brand's running off on this completely other tangent but I'll try to I'll try to reel in the Marlin here for a second back Tim thread Maps training yes so if someone were listening they're sitting in Chicago and if they have an undergrad degree but no advanced degree would you suggest they go to the Maps
website first to gain the experience that you're talking about what are some of the less intimidating experiences that people could test for a week or two or three are there any particular suggestions that you might have I see what you're saying you know they we don't have any of the scheduled trainings for next year yet
but we will by the end of this year so I would suggest a now and I'll put some at the end at the end of the session I'll have the website the websites up to apply for the newsletter and then to to get information and to keep getting updates about when the trainings are and what is required and what are the
changes that have happened but there's also a space where there's other people from different parts of the country and the world that really want to get a site together or are really interested in this world too and so we've had people that even though we don't know when it's going to get approved we don't know
those those things yet people still want the training and they want to connect with each other so they get together and they I've heard people like meeting once a month and then they go through the protocol and they go through the treatment manual and they start talking with each other and saying like what
would it take for me to do this and feel comfortable like I'm gonna do preliminary work until I can get into a training or until it becomes you know something I can do in the future so there's a lot of things to do in the meantime in community in connection with other people who are wanting the same thing and since we have those things
online you know we have protocols online we have our treatment manual online and so they can do a lot of work to begin with yeah you can effectively may simulate the first part of the training by become of course there are gonna be major gaps but by becoming very familiar with the treatment manual and so on master work
everybody here probably knows that URL but people listen am I not the conversation brings up some memories that I have of gathering some first-hand experience of my own by volunteering with zendo and I bring this up because Liana who's part of the team here at maps had mentioned to me that perhaps
one question people should ask themselves before asking do I want to be a psychedelic therapist is do I want to be a therapist and that psychedelics have this very sexy Sheen warm its puts a very nice paint job on that Corvette of a therapy job that you might not have taken otherwise but volunteering at
zendo and for people who don't know is and I know the the tagline has changed so forgive me if I screw this up but it's pure based harm reduction and in effect and what that means is people go through trainings at a place where it is likely that some attendees to say a festival or Burning Man will have what they would consider a bad trip and
you're then trained to hold space and sit with that person and I recommend this to anyone in part because it highlights just how unsexy it can be if that makes sense right because people think like yeah I'm gonna sit there and I'm gonna walk them through their trauma and like heal their soul and like it's
be gone I'm gonna be this awesome shop and it's gonna be great and then you're like no actually there's vomiting on your pants and you need to go get some napkins because they snot it all over your like back your hand and then they're asleep and you're just sitting there for six hours cuz they're asleep like yeah that's also the job
and I remember sitting there at zendo is kind of hilarious I was sitting there I did a lot of shifts I'd basically the only reason I went to these festivals was to do as many shifts as possible someone like me and I remember this guy next to me had he pulled out his like contraband laminated page that he had with all his
like secret techniques that he was going to use in his session like completely outside of the protocol and then his person was just like I don't wanna listen to your words and like when this guy was like my art my art doesn't bode very well for this guy so what are some other maybe just realities that people
should be aware of if they think they want to commit to doing this I'm so glad you mentioned sendou because I've from so many people I've heard people that we've trained I've heard this is where I got my best training because it's in this in the moment and you need to be present for that you don't know what
they took so it's even you know it the safety piece it's not the same as if you know like this is MDMA you took it an hour a half ago in this setting you know so it really amps that up and so I think it's the best training because then you're you're not rolling right like you're training with somebody right
there live and you're doing that work so sometimes people do get like wow this is really hard work and I always tell people if they get the message when they take a psychedelic that they should be a shaman it's a lie yeah and protip if if you meet anyone who's running around calling themselves a shaman probably also a fair indicator
that they're not anything near paying a shaman that's a whole separate diatribe so yeah don't find your shamans on Craigslist or Facebook recommendation number one I I think one of the also valuable things that I took from not just send oh but watching for instance a documentary called trip of compassion
which I recommend to everyone everyone consider becoming a psychedelic therapist or psychotherapist utilizing MDMA as in as an assisting molecule should watch trip of the compassion because it makes the case at least for me very strongly with lots of session footage that if you're not willing to sit for someone with what
we might consider the classic psychedelics LSD psilocybin etc of course I'm not recommending doing anything in a legal setting but if you're not willing to do that you probably shouldn't sit you shouldn't guide at a high level or facilitate an MDMA session in the sense that they can be very very very difficult like you're experienced
recreationally we're all this trauma was unlocked and to be good in that setting really requires proper training and a high degree of sensitivity and it can be really hard I mean you can have someone who let's say was abused by their father and suddenly they project that on to you as the male and the dyad and you need to
have hopefully some type of training or experience that enables you to handle that in a way that doesn't create more damage yeah yeah I I think you know I've I've heard it many times when people say like oh I want to become MDMA therapist and I worry about people practicing outside their their competency because
they think oh the medicine will carry it will carry the session and I've seen the harm caused by that many times I've had a lot of referrals into my own private practice where people had a really traumatic experience on a psychedelic because their sitter somebody who was sitting for them could not hold that
space and it just created more harm and so to really be aware of that that being in a non ordinary state being a vulnerable state you won you you're gonna pick up on that and want to know that you're with people that can hold that and that can and it can be there for you and I think that that movie is so great that we have that
expect that we have that access to to show what people can do yeah yeah also showcases some very gifted therapists yes some very gifted youth all and Karen and other people very very gifted therapists and it shows you how how tough it can be in a way I would even argue that say in my zendo experience
this guy can't came in fortunately in this one case we knew what he'd taken which was 400 micrograms of LSD for those who don't know is a healthy dose or maybe using different adjectives it's a dose capital D and he was losing his mind swinging at people so I ended up with him in the crisis tent for eight hours and it was fine and it was
actually in a way I think easier flailing and swinging and trying to hit you aside then MDMA because he was just on like a 45 second loop talking about Seinfeld and like Chia Pets who's like Seinfeld jib at problem level and then it was just like repeat every whatever 47 seconds and you're like all right this guy's just on rerun fine like sit
him down don't let him run into anything but with the MDMA experience there there really is a tradecraft that is is I don't think I'll I'll do justice by trying to emphasize how technical it can be which is one piece of the puzzle and then there's that sensitivity that you talked about and that awareness that
really comes from probably some degree of hardwiring but then spending time in that environment and if if the patient senses that you are uneasy which they will then it changes the entire dynamic what are what are other things besides people practicing outside of their competency right so if bunny slope
skiers who are like I can do a black diamond besides those people what other things concern you what are their worries do you have looking forward as things continue to become more popular and more people hope to become involved in some capacity yeah I think you know changing our model is our model it doesn't necessarily mean that
it's like the best model right and people do mean the maps of all right the Maps model and people might do something else and it might be fine you know I think one thing that concerns me is the cost so we're really looking into that and thinking about what is this gonna be that we can actually that this can be
cost-effective how are we going to treat marginalized people how are we going to not leave people behind what is it gonna take you know and and so I think there is room to change the model for that and how do we do it safely do we have some group sessions do we have some where it's practitioners who are mmm training
but they are like students and so maybe they don't cost as much if they're working under somebody who is trained and has more experience and what are some of the things that can be done without losing the integrity of the whole program and so I think you know that is a concern but it's also a concern if if somebody takes that and
changes it completely in a way that maybe it's not safe anymore you know so there's a concern about what what can happen there but for us I think the concern about how are we going to make this affordable and how are we going to continue training people that want to be ready and want one1 that kind of
knowledge in terms of like hands-on our training shows a lot of videos that are lie videos of what happens in sessions and sometimes it's very exciting and like you said you know that Michael was saying we're showing this parts where we're actually doing something there's times when people don't say anything for
eight hours for the entire session yeah and nonetheless just this is so important nonetheless if you look at say I suppose the Cape's 5 is the current yes rankings the assessment tool for symptoms of PTSD nonetheless you have somebody who goes from extreme symptoms unable to hold a job this isn't every person but two
asymptomatic even though there was no talking there is no right there's no sort of you know Raphael Michelangelo level like therapy magic happening there was a therapeutic effect in the session with the container with the prep yeah and didn't require talking in the same yeah I think insights when people go
inside and really are not they're both really important a lot of trauma caused by another person happened in relationship right there was we we relate to the world through relationship is the way we understand the world so healing also happens in relationship and happens through relating instead of an isolation so those pieces are really
important and it's also really important when they can go inside our our model we say it's inner directed it's what comes up for them that is here for a reason and for the purpose of healing and maybe it's something that they never told you before and you think it doesn't have anything to do with their trauma or they
think it doesn't have anything to do with the trauma but it does and so we treat it as though it does and that it is important for them to be with it and if they're inside they get these amazing insights you know they come out and say wow like I just realized this where I just thought about this and we noticed that when they go to the
bathroom and we call it the bathroom inside but it's really when they're not talking it's like the shower is the bathroom in the mirror but they're also like with themselves you know they're not talking and and they're getting powerful information that is about them that is like here we are like maybe we
knew this but now it's becoming clearer when you look back at your first ex number I don't know what number to pick but first few dozen experiences as a facilitator as a therapist what were your hardest sessions for you and why what made them difficult if you think back to let's say the first few years of your experience one of the very
first sessions that I did was in the study in Spain and that study was working with women from sexual assault so it was very close to mine my experience so I was like how do I work with this how do i how am i present how am i how do i not bring my things in how do i not dissociate how do I really honor that I am here for this person and
my stuff is not spilling out into them so that was a challenge you know and and I think hearing their stories was so amazing it's so like when people are in pain and our suffering they're so real there's nothing you know they're not thinking about whether hair looks like they're not they're not worried if snots
coming out of their nose and they're just so incredibly real in that moment and in that and in that experience so it's beautiful in that sense and it's also like so painful you know to hold the experiences of people that have suffered greatly and to really be able to to say I am here completely for you
this is your day and it's about you what does good preparation look like for a session like this or a session in the Maps protocol we could certainly talk about it within that context but in your mind what are the the hallmarks of the characteristics of good preparation for someone who has never used MDMA before
who's going into their first mdma-assisted psychotherapy session as a patient what is how do you work with them to prepare well okay what do we do to prepare them yeah that's what I should have asked yep so so we do three preparatory sessions and during those sessions is two for them to get to be more comfortable with the therapy team
and for them for us to also know like how do they how did they cope with their experience one of the things that they have been able to work at them here in relationship to the fact that they have all this drama how is it that they actually got here and what are their skills what are they using so to be
really curious about them their skills like coping mechanisms or coping mechanisms what are their stigmas that follow them that then creates this place of I see them as a certain person because they have this stigma attached to them and how do I take that away and really see this person in front of me
what is their vision even if they don't know what it is what do I imagine that their vision is so it's a really a time to get to know them fully as an individual as a person and then to answer their questions and to try to bring as much comfort as possible to explain everything that can be explained this is where you're going to lay down
you can bring a pillow you can bring your own stuff you know we're gonna is it okay if we light a candle we're gonna have flowers this is what we can do these are the options we listen to music you can say you don't want to hear the music it's it's up to you these are the things that you don't have a choice
about people with PTSD we're not giving choices choices were taken away so it's really important to give choice as much as we possibly can and there's some things that we don't have a choice about because this is research and so one of them is once they take it they can't leave the room for eight hours and how are we going to work
with that if you do want to leave the room because it's not about you hiding that but it's about us working with that how can we work together if you feel like you just want to run away or if you want to go outside and hug that tree and unfortunately we can't let you go outside and hug that tree just imagining
that and the summary table at the end of the researcher for like number of trees hugged on average three and a half standard deviation right makes makes it more complicated no I kept thinking like with a little chainsaw and cut part of the tree and bring it in but that's one solution so what would be an example of
what you might say to someone who goes I can't do this I got to get out of here I really need to be outside do you first remind them of the commitment that they made earlier and the rule they agreed to how do you handle a situation like that where someone just wants to escape they're like I don't like this I'm ready
for this to be over and go outside how do you really remind them of the commitment I mean at some point maybe you do need to say well you know we're not gonna be able to leave but we're really here with you in this process of you feeling what you're feeling your legs wanting to move and wanting to run
and where you know can I hold your hand can I sit beside you can we stay with this experience it will pass this experience will pass what can we do in the meantime what are some of their coping strategies if they really get to a place where they feel like oh I need to breathe can we breathe into that experience and just really be with it
and know that it is going to shift they're worried we're right here with you so it's about it's totally okay and it usually leads to a profound experience of wanting to have run away before right it's like a connection to this piece of it was then that I wanted to run away not so much now I'm gonna keep teasing on this
thread because you're so good at this and the specifics I think really helped to paint a picture of what a session might look like what do you do if someone or what might you do or say if someone gets very judgmental about themselves like oh I hate when I die god this is so stupid I always about and then becomes very judgmental
about themselves as a whole or apart I hate that part of myself who's da da da something they've really really shut down and judged what might you say to someone who's going through a period of expressing no one part of our model and the way that we train is to say it's not never to get rid of anything it's like
alchemy you don't you don't get rid of it you transmute it right that it gets transmitted and so it's not about getting rid of anything at all even that part of you that is judgmental so it's not like mmm at least like I wouldn't say no but you know you don't have to judge yourself or anything it's just like this is the part
that is here now this judgemental part and being really curious about that part and why is there like wow like this part is existing here right now how has it helped you survive how have you worked around it let's explore why it's here and what it's bringing up in your body and what it's making you feel in this
very moment this is why you're so much better at this so good you've done so much good work it's really it's a big deal it's a really big deal and it's so thrilled to have you on stage to have a chance to talk about this what separates in your mind if you look back at all the people you've worked with a good
psychedelic therapists let's focus on MDMA specifically versus a great psychotherapist like the good people versus the great because I feel like you can check a bunch of boxes and kind of get a passing grade get somebody out the door safely and then there's then there's really good and then there's a great therapist and and
I'm not sure I would even necessarily know how to describe what separates us to be because I don't have the canvas that you have meaning of such a you've such a perspective on this so if you think back on your experiences with different people there any any examples you could give of what makes someone in your mind great or stories that come to
mind anything well I think the most we can offer is ourselves so I think it's when we can enter I think what makes a psychedelic therapist grade is if we can enter into their frame of reference and in order to enter into somebody's frame of reference I have to leave my interpretations behind I have to leave
my own story behind I have to leave my own knowledge behind I have it right there and I understand that I can use it but not letting my knowledge blur my vision not not for it not to narrow what is really happening here so in order to really step into somebody's experience it's more than empathy it's empathy is
is part of it but it's really about I am not at all I have like like this disciplined ignorance of I'm stepping in and I'm fully here with you without any judgment and who are you in there and how do I begin to know that I can hold that and that it doesn't mean oh I know how you feel because I felt that it's
not that I can have my own feelings I think I know what this feels like because I've had it but it has nothing to do whether fit with what they're feeling and to put that aside and to know that that's my stuff and so I think in part is that and the other piece is that which maybe relates to that is if I don't spill over any of
my stuff like they they see me and I they get me but they don't have to take care of me and I can even cry and say I'm so moved by this and it's okay so I had like we had a participant that said to me he was a little bit worried that some of his the things that he would share would be too much for me and he said so are you
going to I what are you gonna do what are you gonna feel like what are you gonna think of me if I tell you these really awful things that happened and more and if I tell you these things about myself like what are you gonna do like are you going to be okay like are you gonna be able to just be okay and not be faced by that and I thought I
might have a really strong feeling about that it might be really challenging and really hard and I can take care of myself it's okay I can take care of myself but it might be really really hard we're gonna talk about post as well because I don't want to neglect that but to dig a little bit deeper on the e not making
the session about you right having all these narratives about your own experience spill over is there a place for sharing pieces of your own experience in a showing of vulnerability in the preparation or is it just like I am a doctor authority figure and you know need-to-know basis as far as background like is is there a value in
the perpetrator sessions of sharing what has brought you there in addition to hearing what brought them there is there a value in that or does that contaminate the process in some fashion in our face to study every time a participant came in you know we didn't have a lot of media at the time there
wasn't a lot of stories that have been written about MDMA maps was not necessarily known by a lot of people including some of the participants they had never even heard of maps they were just referred by somebody else and they would come into the room and they would go away your Marcella like they were
expecting me to be wearing like a white lab coat and and it was like it was really like interesting you know what they were expecting and I think self-disclosure is very valuable and it also needs to be done with a lot of care so that it doesn't become about you and when do you self disclose and why are you self disclosing you know are you
doing it in service of you because you're uncomfortable and you need to do something with this or am i doing it in service of my participant to normalize something and to share with them an experience that I'm having and so I I'm definitely not this kind of therapist I think I don't know which is better but
I'm just not it and I do self disclose a lot like my clients know you know that I'm married my kids my co therapist is my husband and I we talk about it sometimes and we say you know we're married and things come up in the session sometimes like oh I disagree with you and we talk we talk through it and they go like this is so great that
we're getting this experience of this reality you mean you and your you and your husband disagree in the session yeah all right how do you what what are the rules of engagement for that well I'm still his boss like you know what no elbows so I'm guessing got a box clean boxing yeah how do you what would be an
example of something you might disagree on this is really interesting to me so on so many levels this is like levels upon levels of interesting I don't remember the specifics but one time I said something to the participant I'm trying to think what it was do you remember no and I was going in a direction like I I didn't think I was
going in a direction but I was even though like that's what you would I checked myself with it's like I might what am I going in this direction like are they taking me in this direction and I thought the participant was taking me in this direction and he thought the participant was taking us in a different direction and he was able to say well I
see this a little bit differently I'm seeing this differently and actually the participant went like what and and then we had a conversation about it and he said his piece and I said well I don't I don't know like I don't know about that I wasn't convinced and we worked with it and we worked with her it wasn't like we
just got stuck on it but later on she was having an interview somebody was interviewing her and she talked about it and she said that was so great because it was like seeing these two people who clearly love each other and respect each other disagree and be okay and continue and still support each other and respect
each other is something that I never saw growing up so it's like so valuable for her if it was done in this way that was that was genuine yeah I can definitely see that what does the post look like and if if we just to tag to put some hours on it the three preparatory sessions are how long each 90 minutes 90
minutes all right so we got 90 90 and then how many posts or integration sessions are there three also 90 minutes each okay so someone else can add that all up but I just want to say one thing which is if you are not willing to put that type of prep and post into anyone you sit for you shouldn't be sitting for
anyone if it's like oh that's so much time what's busy at a look at mine if this is a school night but well if you have any excuses around it you shouldn't be sitting for anybody that's just my perspective that's true because that's that's that's a hurdle that I think you should at least be able to clear yeah before even considering
this and that's putting aside all of the homework and training and certification and so on and you're still on call like that night the evening of their sessions you're on call they're still gonna you still make phone calls after their session for seven days you they can call you and say I need an extra session or
I'm struggling and you need to be present and go there so it's a lot more than just the the scheduled one sometimes right that's the scheduled time yeah and I think it's worth pointing out also that if you are knowingly or unknowingly and it could be unknowingly working with someone who has a history of trauma and possibly
suicidal ideation you could end up in some very challenging situations and it is not always the case that people have say an mdma-assisted psychotherapy session and then it's just smooth sailing for the next week it's not right so could you talk to that because I think it's this is a an aspect of the experience that is is not
discussed as often as it should yeah and and I do think you know I really appreciate stories that are that go out that the media does about MDMA and one of the services is that a lot of times they hook on these little words I get healed me or it was you know I I got what I needed and I got cured and so so
then people think like it's really easy or that MDMA is like this magic pill that's gonna like really take this drama away which is not true and and a lot of times during training trainees will say wow like here's the integrative session after the treatment and and people are suffering and people are really struggling and they can feel a
lot of activation and they can even feel like even like sometimes their partners say to us what are you doing to my partner you know what are you doing she is in so much pain he's in so much pain and and it's if you think about trauma like no matter how much you heal from trauma if I think about my trauma is
gonna be painful it's not gonna be joyous and easy it's gonna be painful so bringing up the trauma really experiencing sometimes even getting I think part of the healing that happens with MDMA is people no longer questioning that it happened and that it happened as violently as it did and that they have sort of tried to
question that try to change the story and all of a sudden the story can be changed here's your story you know that's what happened to me that first time here's your story actually so so then how could you possibly like if you're going through all that it's it's not going to be that the next day you're
oh I'm fine and it's great it's that it is a process of holding of really integrating what is happening the session of getting to someplace where they can begin to hold that experience and be able to hold their feelings and be able to I mean healing is about I'm never it's not about I'm never going to
be triggered healing is I can get triggered and I can move through it and maybe it's going to take me less time and maybe I'm not going to dissociate and I can hold all of that experience and still having our space to live a beautiful life yeah [Music] where can people learn more about the resources that are available the options
that are available for exploring this work not necessarily deciding ahead of time that this is what they should do or will do but to to better educate themselves to understand what's involved to learn more yeah you know Maps has a good library I like reading a lot of the books there but also there's some great
articles that have been written that you can look through that you can see people's experiences have people have done beautiful work talking about their own experience and have really shared with others about their process I know a lot of our participants have done that and you know it's such an honor for them
to share of themselves and this really really want from this vulnerable places so I would say really read read about experiences that people have had read about researchers writing about it educate yourself as much as you possibly can about the the treatment that you want to do about being a psychedelic
therapist and even though you know we don't have that now I know CI is the californian Institute has a has a certificate program for research in psychedelics now and I'm sure that that's going to grow and I get a lot of emails of people asking me what do I do where I go and I explore it a little bit with them like what interests them maybe
I think transpersonal psychology is a great way into it but I also say take a lot of read articles find out where the people who wrote those articles are from if you really like those articles if you feel like oh it's like-minded people where are they are they some of them are professors at universities where oh I
can go and study with them instead of just going to Anna University where nobody is knowing about it but yet you want to be a psychedelic therapist so where there's other people who are already you don't have to invent it you're not alone there's plenty and there's a lot of support to learn and to really you know
there's a new generation coming on and I feel like they're a little bit in a hurry and I keep reminding me them like I've done this for 35 years I've waited 35 years you can wait it's okay you can wait one more year and it's inseam incident transpersonal psychology I'll just quote Stan Grof whose advice at one
point people are like what should we do next what should we do next this is recently and egos don't it up yes it's it's it's fine to move with purpose it's generally not a good idea and certainly not a good idea with these compounds to rush no it's not good that the movies not gonna it's it's not gonna end as a romantic comedy we're gonna end
really poorly if people rush yeah and maps people can find at maps org course is it up there maybe maybe Bryce can put it up yeah we'll also for those people who are listening to this in audio put all of the links and many additional resources on the website blog forward slash podcasts if you could have teamed up log
horses podcast search Marcella ma are CLA probably easier than the last name then it will pop right up and and I will gather resources that can act as starting points that's on the maps website links to studies for those who want to become more familiar with study design some of the results the tools
that are used for measurement and so on there are a lot of very easy ways to get started yeah org four slash training and even though we don't have the training set up yet for next year you can still apply we'll consider those applications we'll keep them on file and we consider those applications and like I said by the end
of this year we'll have the list for next year and with where there will be and our trainings are roughly around 54 54 55 trainees at a time and then people will start knowing a little bit better and in the meantime like gather your team you know like or we're really looking to the Maps website and see if
there's an existing team that is wanting more people and that you know you don't want to have five sites in your city you want to be able to consolidate and be able to say let's let's work together if we have a common ground and and what I'll work with you and the Maps team on afterwards is brainstorming options like
you mentioned possible chaplain a be having experiential options where people can do take the boat out on the harbor and like just do a couple of circles before they try to cross the Atlantic to make sure that they're okay with their sea legs and that it's actually something that when it's unsexy and when it's hard you still want to do it they
still want to do I like marriage I don't yes Molly yeah I got you yeah Molly Molly's still very attentive she's in it with us are there any books that have had an impact on your thinking in this space and I'm just gonna leave it very broad could be that a that could be art could be love don't let on home we
talked about that book a bit earlier which I personally found very very interesting which one I'm not healing journey yep and looks at some very very interesting compounds and not only the compounds with the the session content including the dead ends including challenges it's not just the highlight reel which I
really appreciate about that book are there any books that have really influenced your thinking or your trajectory as it relates to the work I have dyslexia so I'm really bad with names so I don't know if I'm gonna remember but I know um Bruce Tift he is in Boulder Colorado and he wrote a book called already free already free yes Bruce TIFF
TIFF and he combines Buddhism and psycho and psychotherapy and its really a wonderful combination of being able to to marry these two of being present you know how are we present with what's happening in the moment so I think he I think his book is is really really good and I'm trying to think in terms of I
mean I think you know I noticed every time that that we show we do trainings or we do workshops we always put up you know we always put a poetry that really speaks to what we're trying to say so like when we're time talking about the inner healer we put up poetry about that kind of speaks to that and I think poetry is so important because it really
does actually talk about some of these experiences about about doing being inner directed about your inner healer about your compassion about your love about where to come from that so I think it's it's doing the work I think Stan graphs work is amazing and his books are very powerful and so helpful right that
we can really refer to to some of his modality and what he's done in his trajectory of life I think is incredible and so people like that I'm trying to think do you have any favorite poets I do let's tell me more have you pass w pass he said he's a favorite parlor Neruda is a favorite i I really like isabel
allende I mean she's a writer what's her last name I genndy agenda uh-huh wala yes agenda hello uh-huh she's um she's incredible and she really is this you know powerful powerful woman who can who can really speak to honoring people's experience and and doing it through you know I'm a Colombian so I really do see things
through images and fantasy and and those fantasies can are actually true like my husband doesn't believe me but some of those things are true even though they sound like really fantastic they're actually true and and so not just reading about psychology that's I just think that's not my path I just think
there's so many other places science I can't remember who said it was so helpful for me in doing research because you know holding research and holding a person it's a real balance this is a research part this is the part that I need to do that I need to treat them all the same and this is the part that is an
individual right and it's this balance and I was having a really hard time with that I didn't know quite how to manage it and I read a scientific journal that said he said science is an organized kind of wonder and that makes so much sense to marry these two right so that's a great quote and it's it's also very
helpful for people who may be on the non-clinical path currently to to at least understand the vocabulary of a scientific study yeah it's really helpful and there's a book called bad science by Ben Goldacre which has a number of chapters that are really helpful for becoming scientifically literate in an unintimidating way and a
very practical way you can use it immediately in reading any newspaper any article that makes any claims related to health and then Peter Atia MD atti a Peter T MD is websites same Peter Tiye MD comm has a series of articles called I believe it's studying the studies which teaches you how to read studies and it's an
exceptional series of articles that you can find for free which helps you to realize if you may have through your own experience developed perhaps an anti what you might call Western scientific angle that science is not shouldn't be a set of dogma right as you said it's sort of an organized way to wonder and
scratch that itch yeah in a way that can then be replicated and tested so that you know what you know when you know it if that makes any sense yeah so you have a certainty of knowing which is very challenging in this space yeah there are so many possible variables yeah it really really matters that you pay attention to the details
and follow protocol but it can be incredibly challenging when you have the science of the art which in fact do not need to be at odds and then you can I mean it's important to read about science and the research about psychedelics but I think science about something else I've learned so much about science through people who have
done studies with certain animals or certain species or plants and they've done these studies and it's like so fascinating to really incorporate that and to really bring it it just brings some freshness into it that you can say oh that makes perfect sense I'm gonna utilize that to understand this
psychedelic research yeah and you know it's what's so fun about this conversation and we're out of time so we'll wrap up for me is is seeing them the micro and the macro and the macro and the micro in the sense that you're describing how you develop the skills that you have which was borrowing liberally and traveling these indirect
but highly relevant paths incorporating different techniques for different areas and in a sense in a given session you also have to be good at coming at things from different angles and looking at them from different perspectives so you see it in both and you're incredibly gifted and more than incredibly gifted
at what you do you're very well practiced and deliberate with what you do and through your own pain and suffering I've found a way to transmute as you said that into something really valuable and powerful for other people who are in pain and there are a lot of people I think that's pretty much everyone who is born a human and you're
putting a real positive dent in the world so thank you very much and I really appreciate you taking the time on stage with me and Molly I didn't throw up on you [Laughter] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] hey guys this is Tim again just a few more things before you take off number one this is five bullet Friday do you
want to get a short email for me and would you enjoy getting a short email for me every Friday if that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend and five bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week that could include
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