definitely you know you nearly lost your mind in quarantine I loved it yes of course you know the mullet era the big mustache yeah he went I mean he went pretty bad obviously it was crazy [Music] I've been rapping for a long time how long 20 uh four years crazy 25 years I mean this is the thing people had to get their head around pretty quick once you finally broke through that there was there were
miles on the road yeah I mean I started when I was yeah 14 14 years old so it's it's been a journey of a discovery and I think that my constant answer people are like what's the difference between you know McLemore and and Ben the person and my answer would always be like there is no difference right like I I hold myself to be you know as transparent as possible and there's an album called Ben by an artist
called McLemore right right right right exactly but I'm like I want to be myself in the music This is I think our journey through life is this process of finding out who we are what is our purpose why are we here and what are we going to do with this time and every album should reflect that yeah man for sure you can stand by it that way yeah it's a great body of work it's a really you know fi it's very Broad and it
starts in one area and it ends in a whole other place and I just feel like you know you had a lot of fun in a sort of UN restricted creative environment yes that it was like There Are No Boundaries to this there are no genres really I could do whatever I want Zayn that's how I've always made music yeah yeah that's it like isn't it funny though that we still look at you as like Macklemore the scrappy rapper from
Seattle who came out and kicked the doors in independently and it's like that was the identity everybody held onto around this time and that's the truth and that's part of it right but there's another side of it that is uh wants to make a 80s song in a British accent yeah there's another side of it that like wants to rap with you know over over Primo drums and you know there's and there's another side of me
that's like let's take a swing at Pop you know like I want to do all of those things those are all authentically me and I think that one of the things in our culture is we like to put people in boxes right like we were just talking about Playboy cardi in the other room and it's like we put Playboy cardi in a box we put this artist in a box we put Macklemore in a box or whoever it is and then the minute that they break out of that it's
like hold on yeah hold on that's not what you do it's a rough road I mean we're talking about play boycotte we were talking about how a whole lot of red was met with this level of I mean apathy would have been a compliment at the time from fans I mean it was outright like what the is this right and now it's like one of the most influential records of the last sort of five years and and all those same people
are just like oh it's Masterpiece it's just funny you know you break out of the box it's it's it's just a rough interim in it it can be a rough interim for the Arts well for anything we want to be able to like immediately identify what we see what we hear what we taste touch smell whatever and if we can't do that right away then it challenges our notion of perspective is that because we want to be more
efficient with our time so we don't want to have to spend time actually like dissecting and and and and yes yeah yes it is the scroll it is the 80d it is the do I like this or do I not I'm going to give it literally maybe one second yeah and I'm gonna keep going yeah yeah and that's part of our culture so my attempt with all of this is like I want to get back in the studio this is me going into the album I want to get
back in the studio again kill the expectations have fun you get to do this that's the Mantra you get to do this shout out my guy Bieber you get to do this and you don't have to do this you get to do this enjoy it like if you're gonna be here enjoy the studio make what you want to make your light man you're loud on your feet I love it I love to see it it wasn't always that way I've had you in the room I had you in
the room yeah you know uh when you make when you came back after after yeah Thrift Shop thrash and you and Ryan man it was like you you were like deer in the headlights yeah it was dark was it dark very challenging era yeah you got any perspective on that now thinking back what was kind of going on I couldn't have asked you then I couldn't have asked you then you would have told me everything was fine but you faced it
differently yeah absolutely I definitely would have lied to you um I uh and then probably told you the truth of air but that's right you know I am that era was tough man it was like it was all the criticism all the expectations all the accolades all the love all the everything at once and I spent my um you know entire entire life being an underground rapper all of a sudden that changed yeah and then by the
way everyone's questioning your credit like your credentials right it's like everyone forgets about that right no completely it's like you bought your ticket into the room it's like what the are you talking about completely and it was um you know there was a there was an ERA in in that period where it was like wait hold on like that but you guys remember what I've done you guys remember where I came from
and it was like no my little sister likes your music now like this is whack yeah yeah and um that's what you do about that either there's nothing you can do about no she has every right yeah absolutely and you realize and this is my first taste of it at the time this was a decade ago yeah you realize at the time you're like um no but hold on I wanna I wanna show you who I am yeah right I want to be understood yeah we all had that longing
as human beings to be understood where like I can look across the room and someone nods their head at me and they're like oh I I feel seen we just want to be seen yeah and um in that moment it was really intense because I was being seen for things that I wasn't things that I was things that had nothing to do with me whatever you're you're up for for judgment from the world and I didn't no one tells you how
to handle that you know my manager at the time like no one we're all just rolling with the punches like this is this is happening this is crazy and um and here we are at the top of the the world and I have no idea what the I am doing do you think back on it now that if he just had a bit of grasp on the word no it might have been easier yeah yeah I think they know that that word would have definitely helped in a
lot of sitting because I remember when we first met and by the way man I'm holding my hands up I was one of the people knocking on your door thousands of us yeah going oh man I mean I'm just gonna straight up say it like where was I three years before that I wasn't around I wasn't kicking Macklemore or Ryan's door down I was just like this guy's on fire right I'd love to get the story and talk to him
find out what's going on yeah obviously I try and approach it from a more personable and honest and authentic way which is why we connected and we remain so to this day but I was still part of that wave I think we all have to learn that you know in that moment we're dealing with real human beings with real emotions and and real senses of self-expectation and uh I don't think we were helping man I think we gassed
you so hard how could you possibly not go to the Grammys how could you possibly not do that interview or do that cover how could you not you don't know how to say no to that at that point you switch a whole lot trying to get there exactly that's exactly it and um you don't say no you just say yes you do the next show there's another bag to chase there's another uh there's another cover there's
whatever and you're just going and you're not stopping and um yeah and as that's happening as you're not sleeping as you know your mental health as you know as relapse is happening as I'm you know trying to hide that all of that's happening the rest of the world is talking about you yeah and um it was a dark period so well for my pot I just want to say for the rickleman that I'm you know I'm sorry that I would you know
that I was not more thoughtful in the beginning you know chasing the story like everybody else no no no I mean I I've always you know loved and appreciated you bro and and it's no one it's it's the system right like it's not any one person that's the gig that's the gig it's like like okay you work your entire life for this moment now you got the ball what are you gonna do do not go out of bounds do not call a timeout
there is no two minute warning you're just gonna go and um I'm just and that's what we did I'm just grateful you're still playing yeah and that's why I hear a song like Heroes and you know yeah man it's like for people like us who grew up listening to that it's like ah it's beautiful and the video is such a throwback black and white New York City stream video and having you and Primo on the street
corner just listening to your own music is such a it's just so reflective for me it feels like so warm and Brilliant and amazing it reminds me of those moments yeah and those Ruckus records days of just like yeah completely New York was the chorus yes absolutely and you know I love that era it was one of the first songs that I made in covet actually I just like I had this beat wrote a rap quickly damn near did it in
a one take maybe sitting on it just sitting on a permit and I was just saying maybe I was just sitting on it and um and I'm and I'm just and I had always come back to me like I really like this like I just bumped this I just keep coming back to this like I wanna I wanna hear it um over other records that we're like getting priority in terms of our internal conversations and yeah yeah um finally as we're like starting to
roll out songs from the album I'm like I want to give Heroes a moment you gotta I want to give Heroes I don't want it to get buried I I want to go out to you know Primo was down to do the video went out to New York and I felt Zane I literally I'm pulling into New York and I have this moment of like dude and I'm just like okay we got to do the video tomorrow and then I gotta go back home and then this and then that and I'm like
nope enjoy it stop and be in it be here yeah enjoy this yeah bro you are about to go see Primo in the studio and do a video they're doing like the apps with your classic hip-hop video how many times did you get in the Yellow Cab yes all of that now you get to go there Define your own trip with your own yes yep enjoy it can enjoy it and that's what I did and I ran around New York and I had a great
time you know why because the song itself kind of is a reset beautiful reset as well because what it says what it says is like okay we're old enough mature enough to understand we didn't really understand like I didn't really understand my hair couldn't do that I didn't really understand why selling drugs truly meant right I really understand how up I'd get with a 40 ounce on a corner and how much liquor that is yeah I didn't
understand any of that stuff completely but I was drawn to it nonetheless and I'm old enough now to acknowledge that I've learned what it truly means but equally that young kid isn't a bad dude no no not at all not at all how long have you been married now uh man seven seven years amazing yeah amazing amazing amazing yeah congratulations thank you and the kids are doing great yes the kids are great I mean my
daughter Sloan she's seven and a half she's um she wants to be a musician of course you know she she wants to be a designer and I mean yesterday I'm looking at her she has on like my beanie she's got on a bandana around her neck a Michael Jackson t-shirt which is maybe suspicious parenting but whatever and um and some ripped jeans and some like big boots oversized boots I'm like damn like
you're seven they're pulling it off and you look like you're in Paris right now during fashion that's what I'm saying it's like kids kids are just born into they have this like really now they have they have this incredible confidence yes to try things yeah I would have just over thought out of the frame because we have so much more media now to be inspired right there's so many different subgenres and genres that would have
never been there were underground movements that happened organically person to person yeah now it's like you know we're seeing it all in real time unfold on the internet like what subculture do you want to be a part of yeah and there's an openness to Identity now you can form it from many different areas like you said I mean I felt like if magazines in the 90s would have been like here are the five things you could
wear to school this year yes that's it you know and these two aren't cool you can see these three you belong here it's like all right dude think I mean look at hip-hop like look at how people the scope of hip-hop and how people are dressing now yeah and how diverse yeah the clothing you know from like what you know everyone's wearing I mean people are pushing the envelope people are like comfortable with who they are I think
more than they were 20 years ago I know you are I'm showing it your fashion Vibe is strong I mean obviously I'll follow you on the socials I have to keep up with what you're doing you know you definitely you know you nearly lost your mind in quarantine I loved it yes of course you know the mullet era the big mustache yeah he went I mean you went pretty bad obviously it was crazy I'm gonna ask you I haven't had a chance
towards too soon too soon but now I feel like the time is right to talk a little bit about some of the quarantine selections yeah what's going on man yeah quarantine um you're just trying some out you always want to try and I always want to I always want to try you know if you want to try the three for one yeah I mean covert hit and I was coming down here I was gonna wrap the album you know
it was in the last like you know we got maybe 20 left let's go finish it and I went down and we're about to get on the plane and you know the next day and it was like yo we might not get back from La if we go down there right now like it was like just about to pop off yeah um you know at the time I had uh you know a couple years clean I believe or two two something I forget what it was but um yeah it was I got really
I was alone I was you know that's the answer I was alone when you're in recovery a huge part of my recovery is my community of people is is going to meetings two 12-step meetings seeing people giving them a hug hearing their stories talking in the parking lot going out to get coffee like I am reminded of of the disease that I have when I hear their stories I see them there's a physicality to it there's an energy
exchange and it just helps me stay clean covet happens Zoom meetings take over um 12-step meetings on Zoom saved so many lives amazing shout out to kcb in Detroit um and I but but I started to like you know just kind of now I'm on Instagram listening to zoom now I'm like you know checking emails and typing is the zoom's on in the background no I'm not on the zoom now all of a sudden I'm not going to meetings and for me as an addict I
need to go to meetings I need 12-step meetings I need to wake up every day and be reminded that I had the disease of addiction it is untreated and what am I going to do today about about it and um I I lost that and how quickly after you lost it before you went back probably a couple months probably a couple months of just and it starts slowly right it's just like my my self-will starts starts coming back can
I ask you a tough question yeah I feel we've been in this a long time and you know we know each other well enough for me to ask I think it would help people to understand what the feeling is in that moment when you know that your sense of self-restraint is going to fail you and that that time that first tiny step you may take back what is the feeling that if you can remember that you've had you have
before you take a step backward mm-hmm it the most dangerous words to any addict or alcoholic it and um and you know right because it's it you know and I'm a Gemini too so I'm really with the with the Duality but on one side of my brain there is this disease of addiction that is telling me literally yeah it who cares dude just do it today just just for today tomorrow you'll go back you can't even do it on Wednesday
like just just today you're fine it's Monday you're fine and um the other part of you is like do it don't do it don't nope and then it's like who's gonna win the goal is to never get to that place where you're doing this so if I'm doing work if I'm being of service to others if I'm tapped into my community if I'm you know if I'm going to therapy and living a holistically a healthy life I don't get to this point
I'm not even close once I once like I'm like ah let's skip therapy uh I don't wanna you know I don't want to get that exercise eh you know what I'm gonna sleep in ah I'm gonna spend this money that I probably shouldn't on some jewelry whatever the it is I start taking these things my will back and eventually those things don't work then what comes the self-hatred I'm like damn I'm a piece of dude I didn't pick
up that phone call you know I tricked off that money um you know I ate that I I looked at that porn or whatever the it is and then all of a sudden it's just like damn this isn't working what's the point I it I I I've been in self-will it's not working I'm depressed it thank you for your honesty I think that's really I think it's a a really powerful observation because we have to better understand
what happens when we're in that situation as human beings because we don't get it yeah and I was thinking I was actually as I was getting ready to come here today I was thinking about it in the shower and I'm like you know we you know for someone that has an issue with food it's like oh why just don't go to McDonald's yeah just just it's that easy right just don't go no we have trained ourselves I I have when my
neurological Pathways had not fully formed yet I'm 14 years old and when I felt like I wanted to turn off that's what I went to yeah that was a trip so this is the thing right the trauma that inspires the decision to avoid becomes the road map and it happens at a time when you're forming your identity it's really formative and so what people have to understand is it's not as easy as today is different to yesterday you're
actually dealing with something that happened 10 years 34 years ago yes completely and it's it was a great question that you asked to get to this point in terms of what's that moment like no one's ever asked me that and I could almost tell you that anyone that's been clean and relapsed can pinpoint what that feels like it is such a distinct moment where you're there I I have a memory with a pill in my hand and
looking in the mirror it done and and that's because that was my learned behavior when I was 15 and I was like do I go to second period or do I smoke the blunt it I learned that I did that for years that was my that was my that was my mechanism that was my coping that was what I did of course as a grown ass man you strip away some things that create some structure you're right back there I'm right there it's so much
closer than people than you think isn't it that's the Mad thing it's right behind you oh my God it's every day yeah it's right behind you and I think it's an important acknowledgment because I think that you know we think that with the years that pass Us by so the road continues to grow long but actually it's it's hitched on a trailer man yeah I mean it's the disease it's the only disease that tells you you do not have
the disease it's the only one I was so low I remember it was after the Grammys and my wife and I my fiance at the time we went to India this is the Grammys that you yeah when you won yes what I won yeah and we went to India we left and um so it was all going on while you were in the another Hall of the continent I mean in India definitely did not know who I was we we finished the Grammys I went to India and I was
like I was I was just a normal person again for the first time did you know at the time when you were in India that that there was you know a contract there were two sides to that result that were going on the conversation yes yes very aware of the conversation yeah we didn't get out of America that quickly yeah um yeah and uh and I look back at I look back on that time period and um there was so much fear
and the reason why there was fear is because again I was living to escape I was back I was I had been on drugs um you know I remember a couple days before the Grammys um you know I started like trying to taper off because I knew that I was going to be like Dope Sick by the time that the Grammys hit and I didn't know that economology would pretty deep in the drugs before the Grammys that was what was going on I was relapsing yeah I
was relapsing on and off that entire I was an active addiction active addiction that year and um wow you know I remember like taking the last pill we were in we were in Mexico and um you know trying to time it out so I wouldn't be dope sick forget about it and I was so scared and it wasn't it wasn't like what was gonna happen I mean it was it was all of the things at once but the center of it is I
had lost my faith I was living in fear the opposite of of of faith is fear the opposite of hate is love I was in that place of just um I don't know how to do this I can't exist without drugs right now and I want to be understood and people don't understand me that sounds like torture that's that sounds like like living hell the minute that I got clean again after India or in India all of a sudden it was like ah there it
is there's there's my spirit I lost that dude I know it I know exactly who I am I know exactly what got me here I remember the magic that makes me who I am I I had forgotten it what happened but it was almost instantaneous and then the process opened back up and then but now we have to deal with you know think oh yeah but I mean now you've got the yeah you got some tools you've got some clarity some
sobriety you've got space around you to be able to translate that situation here's the thing if you if you'd gone straight back down that narrow hallway bro there's no way you know how to figure out a way out of that we probably wouldn't even have an album right now no not at all and I mean you know you fast forward and two men was a really difficult period and then Gemini and Gemini was a massive
success and I had um I had so much fun making art for the first time in a really long time I was so happy for you because I was just like now you finally getting away a 3.0 like a clean slate yeah Define who you are not who we all decide that you're going to be right and by the way you have to suffer in silence while we're deciding who you are because you don't want to tell people that you've relapsed so we have no idea what
you're struggling with we're just like oh it he's this guy right and you're like you have no idea who I am I'm over here dealing with something way off the chart completely up yeah man I was so happy to know we were going to get a chance to talk I'm so happy to put on this record and just to realize like you're really all you know having The Best Time Ever making music and then at the end of it you know you
really know how to finish a record bro you always end in a really impactful way yeah what was important to you about completing this project what do you want people to walk away from at the end of listening to it feeling I want people to know me I want people to know I want people to know who I am I think that that's and I want to bring joy like it's not I think you know there's like the internal ego of like what you know how do I it's
like I don't control any of that those two things are the same thing you know because I think people feel like you're this guy who's like doesn't quite know whether he should embrace his success or be embarrassed by it or fit in here or don't fit in there so those two things actually make total sense because for you to be the person who makes this album that is just like unabashedly joyous at times deep and transparent in
other different ways that is you completely completely that's that's absolutely me and um you know it's funny that you say that you know like whether to be you know to celebrate the success or you know worry about it or how am I going to be perceived yeah yeah all of that is um I think it's I think it's part of our process as musicians in the in the public I think that we all deal with
that to a certain extent there are kids who are teenagers dealing with that going to a house party on a Friday night yes yes and absolutely it's a human condition right the I find happiness meaning and fulfillment when I let all of that go and what I truly want is I want to be able to go play music live and have people come that's what I want simple right that's that it goes that's just such a simple so simple I want to play
music live around the world and I want people to come and I want to celebrate with those people that want to come and I don't care if they're if they're 500 people or 50 000 people that's what I want and that's what I've always wanted that's it I it it's gonna hit who it's gonna hit the ears that it resonates with are those that we're supposed to be there you know that's it you know I love as
well man is that I think I think one of the great realizations in the odds that I've noticed among certain people and it feels like you're there is that people is that when you get to that point you realize that actually no one can take it away from you that you can choose to go back yes whatever you want yes and then no one's gonna sit there and go ah time's up bro you had yeah time for somebody else you're like well that's
cool they can go do them I'm gonna keep doing me I'm going to keep doing me and that's what I've done that's what I will continue to do when I get lost that is my compass is what do I really want out of this why am I here and um if you're if you're not waking up happy to be here if you don't want to do this job do something else or something else that's okay but as of right now I'm still really enjoying it