0:00
if I would see this guitar in a film, like I was like that that that's a nice guitar.
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0:04
That's that I want to have that one.
0:10
I'm so glad the rest of the world now knows what I knew for a couple of days before the word got out there that you've, you know, worked on with your friends, your family. Yeah.
0:18
uh a body of work, a movie, uh a musical experience, you know, a story that is just so out of the box creative.
0:27
It's so interesting and you've taken on so much, man.
0:32
Sincere congratulations on the successes and is so deserved.
0:34
It's so good to see you, my friend. How are you? Thank you, man.
0:37
Yeah, it's great to see you. Great to be here.
0:38
So happy you enjoyed the film and you got to see it early, so yeah.
0:42
And I got to see it on on the big screen, the biggest screen.
0:46
Yeah, you saw it on 7 70 mm, I imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
0:48
Isn't that a crazy experience?
0:50
Very immersive and um overwhelming at times and uh I think all the areas that you wanted us to be overwhelmed with imagery and symbolism and feeling it it was really like at times it was very an emotional experience you know it is it is an experience you probably can't get anywhere else you know that in that format and then with the sound you know we spend so much time on the sound design and really making it immersive.
1:14
Yeah, we're going to get to all that amongst other things and talk a little about life and just stretch out and have a great chat, man.
1:18
I've been looking forward to this.
1:20
And um yeah, so let's stay where we are. Let's stay with sinners.
1:23
And look, you you know, you've set the the bar high for yourself.
1:24
Ryan has set the bar high for himself.
1:26
Um Serena, of course, you know, your partner in life and in business and creative.
1:31
You know, you always strive for for great great things, but I really feel like you knew what you were undertaking and were fully committed.
1:40
But at what point did you realize that this was probably going to be the most ambitious thing that you'd actually worked on just purely musically, let alone as a story?
1:45
I know anytime working with Ryan, it's it's it's it's going to be magic.
1:50
You know, I know from from the time first time I met him USC Yeah.
1:53
USC back in, you know, 15 years ago.
1:55
Um that this is a very special person and and everything he do does is is so has such a depth to it.
2:05
Can I be annoying and just stop you right there and we can zero in on that because it's just I don't want to let that moment pass.
2:09
How do you know when you meet someone for the first time that they're your person?
2:15
Um well, it's it's it's um it's it's a some kind of uh connection.
2:19
um where where you have where you just where you're just excited to see that person over and over again and where you feel like every time you're meeting and talking like you're all you're growing, you're getting deeper. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:41
Um, and and also what's funny is like with with Ryan, it's like when we started hanging out and he was like, "Yeah, the first movie I was going to do, I'm going to do a boxing movie and and and then he does it, you know, and and and so I but I was I I have to admit that I was a little surprised when he was when I realized he's making a music movie, you know, and a movie about guitar player."
3:04
M uh he started to FaceTime me when he was writing the script and asking for some guitar lessons because he was learning how to play it.
3:10
And and you're like, "Sure, man.
3:13
I know a guy called Bob down the road.
3:14
He's 50 bucks an hour calling me for that's where our friendship ends." And you, Dude, come on.
3:20
You know how much I charge an hour for this?
3:25
No, but but it was, you know, it's it's it's it's anytime you you have the ability to to work or connect with your friends, right?
3:33
That's that's what's special because now, you know, as as we get older, you know, you your time is so limited.
3:39
So, like you really you just really want to spend the time with people that you love. So, yeah. Yeah.
3:42
I was kind of I knew that these type of movies, music films is are so rare.
3:51
Well, they're hard as well.
3:51
and hard they're hard really hard to make.
3:53
I mean, you can probably count on your one hand how many music movies you've seen that actually meant something to you. Right. It's true.
4:00
And you know, music biopic's so challenging and I respect everyone who's ever taken one on and some of the roles have been have been carried up like within an inch of perfection and I still don't leave getting a sense that I've learned anything new or that as a as a music fan, you know, I I can't I I can't I can't go there all the way all the time. Does that make sense? Yeah.
4:20
I mean, I feel like I feel like as a musician watching a movie and knowing so much about music, you're always going to look at that to hone in on small little details like is that guy really playing?
4:30
Is that you know, do that do they know what they're doing about music?
4:32
But also so much what we love about music live is not performative. Yeah. It's feeling. Yeah.
4:39
And when you put something on a screen, it's by its very nature becomes more of a performative experience, which makes it harder to bring the feeling Yeah. with you. Yeah.
4:46
And that's what Ryan did so genius with this film how he wrote that into the story, right?
4:53
It's not it's not a performance.
4:55
It's this this all every every music scene we see it's it's it's because of the story with the character and how to propel the the the story of the film.
5:05
So So it's it nothing feels like it's oh that's just there for them to perform like it's all just it feels so natural. Yeah.
5:12
It's at times it feels like it could be it could be a dark musical.
5:15
At times it it it feels far more of a cinematic experience and less of a of a music experience.
5:22
There are times when I could just close my eyes and I'm just very much in in the music world. Yeah.
5:26
The music's very authentic um naturally.
5:27
Uh but not an easy challenge, you know, to move into a period like that uh where a majority of the people who could ever tell you how it how it really was or play how it really was are no longer with us. Mh.
5:38
Um to some degree, you know, you're leaning into your learnings. Mhm. Your abilities.
5:45
How did you get to the authenticity place of it?
5:47
Because you could replay anything, Lic.
5:49
How did you know it felt real to you, real to the time?
5:53
One of the first things that that we did um was to we went to Memphis, me and Ryan, and actually invited my dad who's a blues fanatic and guitar player.
6:05
We all went to Memphis and we did the what people call the blues trail trail.
6:09
He's laughing at you, by the way.
6:09
He's like, "Yeah, yeah, you're not a Metallica Metallica show now, mate, are you? You done?
6:14
I told you you'd make it here.
6:16
That mean that that's been his dream since he was a kid to go on that on that blues trail.
6:20
Um, so we went we went down to the places where the Ryan wrote the story, the Clarksdale.
6:26
um you know and and we we spent some and then we went back to Memphis and uh we had this amazing um musician and producer Lawrence Bumitchell who owns uh Royal Studios in in Memphis and we set up sessions where you know real musicians could come um um and play and talk to us about their experience and and talk to us about the blues.
6:49
Um, Bobby Rush, Cedric Burnside. Incredible.
6:54
Um, and real curiosity wonderland, right? I mean, yeah.
6:57
And and so, you know, the whole time you you have to think about like, okay, what what are we trying to what are we trying to do here?
7:06
You know, and obviously talking to Ryan all the time.
7:09
One of the first things that he said was like how this music from the 30s, the way we listen to it now is on we only have those terrible records with with hisses and noises and it's it's like pitched up a little bit, you know?
7:23
That's not at all how it sounded or felt like at the time, right? Right.
7:28
It's like you looking at a or me looking at a photo of your grandfather's and it's like black and white.
7:32
You're like, "Oh, the world was black and white at the time." Right.
7:34
So, how can we put the audience today in in in that experience and try to communicate that feeling of what it could have been? Genius.
7:43
I mean, just a beautiful twist on it.
7:44
Something so I'm not trying to belittle it.
7:45
I mean, this is a highest compliment.
7:48
So simple and effective way of looking at at it. Um because you're right.
7:51
soon as you you listen to those songs. Well, this is old. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not. It's timeless.
7:59
And if you just record it in a way that feels like now, those songs would that's how they would sound. It's it's timeless.
8:04
And also it was dangerous.
8:06
You know, the the guy, you know, when we're hearing these songs from the 30s, we think about like old men singing these songs.
8:12
But like at the time they were 18, 19, this music was dangerous.
8:17
The music of the devil, you know, and um how can we Yeah.
8:20
How can we portray that feeling in the film?
8:23
And and I think one of the most challenging thing was that that listening to, you know, Tommy Johnson, Robert Johnson, um uh the music they're playing is it's so complex and difficult.
8:40
In the 30s, you know, blues musicians, they were buskers.
8:45
They played was a one-man band.
8:48
you know, you you played on a corner and you you had your hat and you played music and you had people putting money in it and it was no reason to have more people split the money, right?
8:57
So, so it wasn't until uh you know uh Muddy Waters went up to Chicago and then brought and Howling Wolf and and then they brought some musicians from the Delta with them and started putting the band to play bigger venues.
9:14
Uh, and that's that's the combination with um Hill Country Blues musicians and Delta musicians combining that type of drum playing and that type of guitar playing.
9:29
That's how like the modern style band came together. I know that. Yeah. Wow.
9:33
So, it all traces back to that moment. Yeah. Because guess what?
9:34
There really is no commerce in one person playing music on the street.
9:38
It's it's a it's a bespoke business model. Yeah.
9:39
But as soon as you bring a band together, you bring promoters together, you have the foundings of an industry. Mhm. For better or for worse. Yeah. For better or for worse. Yeah.
9:51
I want to talk about the making of the film as well as the music and I'm trying to figure out when the right time.
9:55
I think there's no right time because you you know, you're an executive producer on the film and and obviously everybody knows that you're going to bring an enormous amount to anything creatively from a music point of view and an arrangement scoring point of view.
10:06
Um, but I feel I feel like, you know, this was a group effort to make the film as well.
10:11
Ryan directed it, but I feel like it was really So, how was that experience deepening your relationship professionally and and personally into and to having more of a stake in this and not just like being a, you know, scorer for high?
10:22
Yeah, this was a completely different experience for me.
10:27
Um, and also getting to work with with Serena together on this music and there was just so an enormous amount of things to cover.
10:36
Like I I never worked in this aspect before where you have onset screen, you know, like a musical, have to go move out to New Orleans for four months, have the actors come into the studio, learn learn the songs, rehearse the songs, write the songs, and everything had to happen in a very short amount of time. You know, we How short?
10:56
Um, I think I read the script in January and then we were shooting in April, you know. Yeah. That's like 3 4 months.
11:02
You got to get the cast to be that that real. Yeah.
11:08
It's not just a case of learning them.
11:09
No, I think I think I think I got to believe Miles that he is a mo he is a modern day reinterpretation of Robert Johnson.
11:15
He got cast I think he got cast in January and then he had three months to learn how to play the guitar. Okay, I got to ask.
11:22
Had he did he know how to play I'm so lost for words.
11:24
Did he know how to play guitar?
11:26
He I think he could play like chords, you know, he like A C D.
11:31
But you can we could obviously tell I could obvious tape that he's an incredible musician.
11:37
You know, he's an incredible and he's also a very serious person and like so and the way the way he played those chords and guitars on his audition tape and the way he talked like I know that, you know, he's he's he's he's he takes himself and the craft and music very seriously with the greatest of respect. You know, time is time. Yeah.
11:54
You can take yourself as seriously as you want, but if you're losing the the battle against time, then it's stressful.
11:59
That's where stress comes in.
12:00
There must have been moments in that 3 or 4 months when you have to get ready for shooting.
12:03
You have a responsibility to get the cast ready to get Miles ready.
12:06
You must have There must have been real out of your depth moments. It must.
12:09
Yeah, because also we also on the script like there's original songs in the script and we don't have we don't have the original songs.
12:16
We don't know what they're going to sound like.
12:18
And so finding the right people to write the songs with.
12:21
Um, you know, we found a great guitar teacher in in Philly for for Miland Bolan.
12:28
um amazing guitar teacher Miles went there twice or three times a week for 3 months learn to play and it's also not just you know the guitar that he's playing in the film the which is playing live it's not just noodling it's it is you know it's a slide guitar he's he's doing the melody and accompaniment you
12:45
know and he's supposed to be singing and he's supposed to be at that moment in time the greatest living guitar player who ever lived otherwise why the is the world coming to an end around him and he does it with so much confidence And and it's yeah I mean that scene so that scene when you see him playing with Michael B. Jordan when when Sammy and
13:02
Jordan when when Sammy and Stack are in the car for the first time that's genuine reaction from from Stack from Miles. That's brilliant.
13:09
Him hearing him sing for the first time like he's that's brilliant.
13:12
That's real and you feel that that translates to the audience too. And Ryan designed that.
13:18
Ryan knew that that that Michael B.
13:20
Jordan would be hearing Miles play for the first time in the car. You think?
13:21
Uh to best of your knowledge. I I I think so. Yeah.
13:25
Sounds like the way you're describing Ryan sounds like he's got all the chess moves.
13:28
I mean, that's that's Yeah.
13:30
When you read when you when you start seeing the movie over and over again and find all these like story lines and find all the meanings of scenes and and there's endless, right?
13:39
Everything is has a has a purpose. Yes, everything does.
13:41
And and it's an enormous amount of detail. You're right.
13:44
It's a multiple watch film.
13:44
Uh which holds you in goodstead. Um Yeah.
13:48
And I loved all the little kind of nods.
13:50
I love the devil went down to Georgia a bit. Okay. All right.
13:52
The bad guys play the fiddle. That makes sense. You know what I mean?
13:55
It's just there's little things there where it's just like even the sound like the fiddle can sound like that that that that type of string can sound eerie and aggressive and at times it can be played badly as you know unlistenable. Yeah.
14:09
So it it it does have a violence attached to it. Yeah.
14:13
And and and also like history-wise like like you know going back in time like this black string bands like it was it was it was black musicians playing violin, playing banjo, playing guitar, the you know so much of what we know of music today has been shaped by the music industry, right?
14:32
So, you know, going back in time, the first two record labels was was one was called Race Records, which was where the black artists were recording.
14:41
The other one was Hillbilly Records for the white artist.
14:45
And the first one was called what? Race Records. Race. Yeah. Race and Hillbilly. Unbelievable.
14:50
Um, and you know, so already from the beginning, it was already divided in in the sense where Yeah. the hill literally. Yeah.
15:00
Um, and it wasn't until, you know, the white audience didn't didn't buy the race records, you know, and it wasn't until those records came over to England, Rolling Stones, Beatles started buying these records from these black blues musicians and they've been all they these musicians already been playing for lots of years and and so um people um these blues musicians started getting famous in Europe first before and eventually then in America. Mhm. God, man.
15:34
So many things I didn't know.
15:37
And yet I've been living my life in serving.
15:39
But but also when when when these white musicians started playing the blues, it wasn't called blues anymore then, right?
15:45
The labels like, "Oh, this is something else, you know." Yeah. Yeah. It's rock music. Yeah.
15:50
Because again, we're now we're in an infrastructure where it could be capitalized upon, commercialized, right, which requires a language. Yeah. It's all about language. Yeah. Right. Right.
16:00
And what I love about this film is that um it it has a very unique language between the characters.
16:06
It's there's clear division between what's going on on either side of the table in terms of who's trying to achieve what.
16:10
Um but it it it it really it really kind of pulls you apart in terms of who you're rooting for sometimes, right? It does. Yeah.
16:17
you you automatically think, oh, the vampires, you know, it's the bad guys, you know, and and and they are in a way, but but also like after after seeing it several times, like people are like, okay, actually, you know, these guy Reik is actually thousands of years old and and he is Irish and Irish was colonized by the British, you know, so he's in his mind, he's trying to save them from what he went through, you know.
16:41
Let's talk a little bit as as much as you can about um how this experience was for Ryan being such a good friend of yours and as someone who obviously helmed the entire project from a sort of like ideological point of view from idea to conception to deliverable.
16:55
Um he's taken on big projects in the past, but but you know he went to Clarksville to write this, right?
17:02
We Yeah, he wrote it and then we went and Yeah.
17:05
And then we went there, but he he had an uncle from from me from from Mississippi.
17:08
Um but yeah, like this undertaking, this huge obviously undertaking for him.
17:15
Um and also the movie that's probably the closest to his heart out of anything he's done. Yeah.
17:22
And um and just doing it under a very crunched timeline.
17:25
Um why does everything have to be so crunched?
17:27
Can we talk about timing for a second?
17:29
Like I'm fascinated with the idea of time. Yeah.
17:33
If you have a great idea and you have the right people to execute upon it and you know you're committed to it, how does it get to a place where time starts to have an impact?
17:43
Well, I think it a big thing about that is that Ryan has such a great creative platform, incredible collaborators who are also and he I think he knew that okay, if I don't do this now, these guys are going to go off and make other things like I he could sense that this is in the time that I have to do this now for for me to be able to work with building a house.
18:05
If I don't keep going, I'm I'm going to lose the contractors. Wow, that's crazy.
18:12
And it was it was it was Yeah.
18:14
like being there in New Orleans, you know.
18:17
Um I I had I had Serena and I we got we got a big studio uh called Esplanade.
18:25
It was like in a big church.
18:26
So we were there every day working with the actors.
18:29
They would come out from set like Miles would be shooting a 12-h hour day, coming to the studio, rehearsing, learning the songs, singing the songs, recording the songs, go back to set, you know, every everyone was just giving it all.
18:41
And and after after we've been in the studio for 12 hours, we would go to to set.
18:45
We did we did one month of night shoots from like 7:00 p. m. to 7:00 a. m. So like brutal.
18:52
After 10our day in studio, we would go to to 10 hours in the swamp when they're shooting. Oh my god. Walk to Del.
18:57
You're becoming the vampire. So yes. Yeah.
19:02
Um but also you know being able to you know having having your your partner there is like being able to collaborate like that.
19:09
It was it was key to everything. It's the dream.
19:10
How how surreal did it get after a month of night shoes.
19:13
My friend does that sometimes in his job and he says that sometimes the world does just feel like it's upside down.
19:18
I I you know fortunately for me for that one month of night shoes I'm probably on set maybe one or one or two days a week.
19:27
I don't know how how Ryan does it.
19:27
You know, Ryan's there 12 hours making a thousand decisions in the heat with the bugs, locusts of swarms of bugs, alligators, and snakes.
19:36
And then you saw all this. This is all around you. Yeah. Yeah.
19:40
We were driving out to the swamp.
19:42
We were driving in in L in Louisiana.
19:44
Like I had never done that before, but like you on the freeway on the sidest of the freeway, you see like cadaavvers of alligators, like half alligators.
19:50
It feels like a different planet.
19:52
Um, so that was a new experience for me.
19:54
And then when Ryan was not shooting, he was like, you know, prepping for the next day.
19:58
Like I don't know how that man slept, you know. I don't think he did.
20:01
What a beautiful partnership you've been able to forge with him. Incredible.
20:02
And to and not just him also.
20:04
I mean, you know, some amazing collaborators over the course of your career to date.
20:11
Um, so how do you balance that?
20:11
You have a certain way of working with Ryan that I'm sure comes very naturally.
20:17
Um, you know, you've done some incredible work with Christopher Nolan.
20:21
Um, how do you get to a place where the collaboration is balanced for you no matter who you're with?
20:29
How what is the art to great collaboration?
20:31
That is a great question.
20:35
Um, I mean, I think when we started the interview, you know, we're talking about friendships and we're talking about how, you know, you have a a connection, right?
20:42
And then and and then also the the and also the limits of time that we have that we want to spend them who we want to spend them with people that you feel like you can grow with and what you feel like you have you can push and pull and there's there's there is I think with with my collaborators you know if it's if it's if it's Ryan or or or Chris Christopher or or um or or Donald you know who I work for a long time now.
21:12
like it's it's it's always, you know, we're we're all you feel like you're on a journey together and and there's just things within your lives, your private life and your life, like things are just kind of lining up and um and yeah, I I I I don't know actually I I I actually don't really know why how how um how things are how they become, but but I I feel I just feel just very lucky to be able to just work on on um music and and things.
21:50
I mean I I kind of only do music.
21:50
I don't really do anything else.
21:53
I guess different things of music, different kinds of music and different aspects of music, but but I don't really I I need to find something else. Do you saying? Yeah.
22:04
Sometimes sometimes I feel the same way. It's so funny.
22:06
I even said this on the show live show this morning.
22:09
Everyone was like, "Ah, it's really amazing how you can just have this different interviews with different people and you know, and I was like, "This is all I have, guys.
22:13
This is all I do outside of family. That's it."
22:16
I mean, maybe we just need to sign up for like a sailing boat class or something, you know, something.
22:21
I'll be the first overboard.
22:23
You know, it um can we'll come back to sinners in a second.
22:28
second. Um I I talked about some of the people you work with and I I've never had a chance to talk to you about um the difference between and obviously it's going to be fundamental differences because different people but what are some key differences when you're working with say Christopher Nolan versus Orion
22:40
and and what is that experience like very different types of of of work and and I I asked that because people are highly obsessed not even cinnaphiles highly obsessed with Christopher Nolan as a director and his mind and what has been your experience of working with Christopher from a sort of scoring and creative collaboration point of view? I
22:57
I think what with both of them like what's what's just so amazing is that obviously they're incredible directors but also writers. Yeah.
23:05
you know, so so that's so that that allows me to get started in the process at a very very early stage when they're having an idea when they're when they finish a script and they have, you know, I can I can come in there, I can read it, we can talk about it and I love what I love to do is just write music based off of our conversations and of off the script.
23:28
So So because then I don't have any then I can just write music, right?
23:33
I can I can I can create the images and and and in my in my mind.
23:39
I'm not tied to, you know, a screen. Yeah.
23:41
Do not for hire necessarily.
23:41
It's not like, oh, we've done everything else.
23:44
Let's get the music cat in.
23:44
Let's figure that part out. Yeah.
23:46
It's like, you're right there.
23:48
But I've been but I I definitely have worked on a lot of movies where and and shows, you know, I've been I've been doing this for for quite some time now.
23:55
And then and you know, there's that movie with with the Jack Black when he's sitting and riding in front of the TV screen.
24:02
You do you know which one I'm talking about?
24:04
Is that the one with that? He's a film composer. A holiday.
24:06
I I like it's it's I'm I'm I feel very I feel it feels really nice to be able to write music.
24:13
Um just just based of a of a script and based of ideas and thoughts and and and and I think what's really important with these with Chris and Ryan is like they really with when you have time that's when you can really experiment. Yeah.
24:28
You know, and and they have time.
24:28
So they're not like, "Hey, this is a great idea, but I don't have time for you to go off into some journey and come back and let's let's do it." No. Yeah.
24:34
We're working together on this and and you know, I'm starting to write music.
24:39
Chris is listening to it. We talk about it.
24:44
It's it's it's it's very, you know, and we always we do it in person, play it, music, listen.
24:48
So it's a very um and over and over and again listen to the song, listen to the music and and and talk about specific instruments, talk about you know um ideas and and so it's it's it's just extremely collaborative.
25:02
You know, first of all, as an observation, what a beautiful beautiful level of trust you're able to achieve and what a great amount of positive energy that must give your confidence that you know you're on the right path, the fact that you're able to to get there.
25:18
But I think about a film like Oppenheimer which was I mean this is the highest form of compliment.
25:24
I I I've only watched it once and at one and and I will watch it again but I need time because it was so affecting. It was so so beautiful.
25:30
But I'm not going to watch it like 10 times in a row. Right.
25:35
Um so I got to ask you what that was like to work on because every score is different.
25:39
Every immersive collaboration is different.
25:43
And that film, at least from a from the from the movie theater, from the seat in the movie theater, yeah, felt like everybody was, not just Christopher, was wearing the responsibility of telling that story.
25:53
It's funny because you're you're you're you're working on something so intense for a long period of time and then you move on to the next and and and all know when we start talking about this again like all these memories are coming back and and it was so um it's it's it's it was such a big movie and big undertaking and so much music and and I'm not really thinking about it what I'm I'm like I'm like okay I need to depict what they're doing.
26:22
I'm not I'm not thinking about that in my mind.
26:24
I think in in the back of my head, yeah, I think it's like, okay, well, the music needed to channel, what progression sounds like.
26:32
And and and I think visually, um, I was able to see a lot of the material early on when they were doing these experiments with Adams like swirling and and and just seeing seeing those kind of experiments made me um really inspired.
26:50
Um and um and uh and then and then you go into deep black hole and which Mhm. is a fun place to be.
27:04
Then that's I guess that's why I'm in this, you know, to to get those moments when you feel like there's no time, there's no sense of time, you're not I love the way you just described that like the idea of just going into your black hole and realizing that all the only focus you need is just on in the present moment really, right? Yeah.
27:22
And that's that's those moments that I live for in music, right?
27:25
And um and on every at least if I have one of those on every project that I work on, then I feel like I'm doing the right thing. Yeah.
27:36
That's why trust is so important.
27:39
You know, people trusting me, the the director, the writer, trusting me that that and allowing me to go there and and and being excited.
27:49
what comes back from there and and also you know these movies are not small movies.
27:56
There's there's a lot of people involved but but so but but but the my collaborators they you know they have they have um just such a clear vision and and and people um so you feel protected. Yeah, I feel protected.
28:17
I feel the trust in me you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
28:18
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing.
28:20
Do you get emotional when you see it back on the screen for the first time and the score is sitting there and and you're with other people, right?
28:26
Like I get emotional when I hear music with other people sometimes more than I do on my own, you know? Yeah.
28:31
Even even just having a playback and I'm playing my music and and you know, if we're in the same room, it's a completely different feeling, right?
28:38
If I'm playing my music for Christopher Ryan and I'm I'm sitting there in the same room like I can I can immediately tell what they're what if they like it or not, you know, even even if you're not talking. Yeah. Yeah.
28:50
So, Sims has been enormously successful and continues to be.
28:55
I mean, it is one of the biggest films in recent memory and um rightfully so.
28:58
Such a great great result for an interesting story to reach people and capture people's attention and hold it.
29:03
Yeah, we're constantly told all the time that, you know, um the capacity for stories to be interesting and reach a wider audience is becoming minimized by uh our attention to detail or our attention deficit syndrome, I should say.
29:15
Um, so this must be rewarding for you.
29:18
But how does it sort of affect your decision-m if at all when you know for someone who came out of local college, local environment, a creative home, went to USC, very specific studies, you weren't put on the road to stardom.
29:35
It wasn't like, you know what I mean?
29:36
Like it was art first and yet you're playing in a big business now with big success.
29:45
Does it sort of translate for you at all?
29:48
Do you consciously try to reject that information? Do you embrace it?
29:50
How do you deal with the growth?
29:53
Anything I do, I really need to have good time doing.
29:59
I want to have fun when I'm doing it.
30:01
If I'm writing music for a film or for a song or like I want to feel like I'm enjoying this.
30:07
Um, and there's been a few times where it's like, okay, if I'm not if I if I if I'm not feeling good right now, if I don't like what I'm doing, I just need to kind of step away and just stop doing it because then it's like then it's like a job, you know?
30:19
Um, and of of course I know that what I'm doing is is is a job, but but I don't I don't really feel like it's it's it's it is um a job because I I love it so much. Yeah. Yeah. Um and Yeah. And it's it is a dream.
30:37
And I I also, you know, I also feel like I I do want to as much as I can, I do want to inspire um you know, with with Sen for example, like there's it's probably my most personal score out of everything because I'm like the movie is about a guitar player. I'm a guitar player.
30:57
player. I'm a guitar player. like I I I wrote the whole score on the guitar and I I feel like want to have you know maybe somewhere there's someone like me when I was 7 years old or 9 or 10 years old and watching this film and like okay I want to play this you know that I want
31:16
that and that kid is going to pick up the guitar and try to play this song you know and and and you're right it's more tactile it's it with the greatest of respect it's harder to do when it's requires a 60 piece orchestra it's like I want to be the violinist in that orchestra. Right. Right.
31:29
Somebody's going to think that. But you you're right.
31:31
You you narrow the field a little bit from when a kid has only so much they can draw inspiration from.
31:37
Well, that looks like fun. Yeah.
31:37
Picking that instrument up and playing that looks like fun.
31:44
Like you have one to your I brought to your left.
31:46
Can Can we take a look at it? Yeah, of course.
31:47
I brought the This is the the Preacher Boy guitar.
31:49
This is the one he actually played.
31:51
Yeah, that's the one he's wearing in the film. So Oh, yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow.
31:55
Was it beat up when you got it or was it beat up now? No, no.
31:58
This is actually a 1932 Doro guitar from 1932.
32:01
I would normally under any of the circumstances ask to play that, but it should stay with the owner.
32:05
But, uh, I feel like that's got that's got real spirit in it. So, what was it?
32:09
Okay, let's talk about instruments. Yeah.
32:10
When you picked that up and played that for the first time, what did you feel?
32:13
Um, it was at the Norman's rare guitar shop in I think it's Tana. Dangerous. Dangerous place.
32:20
Dangerous place for guitar heads.
32:22
Um, and uh, well, I knew we like Ryan wanted to have a resonator guitar and this is this is the resonator and that's the amp, right? Yeah, exactly. That's the amp.
32:29
You know, at the at the time you didn't have really amplifiers.
32:32
They had this to kind of push the guitar out and just happens to look rad as well, by the way. It happens to look rad.
32:38
And it happens to be great weapon to hit vampires in the head with made from the right materials. Yeah, it's beautiful.
32:46
You couldn't ask for a better instrument.
32:47
So, you picked it up at Normans and and how did it speak to you? What did it say?
32:50
I just I just I was like I just it just looked so badass. Yeah.
32:54
And and if if I could if I would see this guitar in a film like I was like that that that that's a nice guitar.
33:01
That's that I want to have that one.
33:03
I just love all with the chips and all the wear.
33:04
I have an early 1940s Martin just a small mini Martin. It was really beautiful.
33:08
I picked it up and it music just played. Yeah.
33:10
And it it always reminds me and I love your take on this about the spirit of the instrument. Yeah.
33:15
Because to me everything is moving particles and energy, right?
33:18
And so the instrument to me is carrying stories and all kinds of things going on.
33:21
Do you think about that when you hold that in your hand?
33:22
I think about that a lot when I'm writing music. Yeah.
33:26
Especially when I'm writing the music on instruments, which is which is something that the last five years, six, seven years.
33:34
Like I' I've really been trying to write my scores and my music playing the instrument and playing a real thing because this speaks back to you as opposed to notation by memory or by skill.
33:47
No, as as as as as instead of sitting by a computer. Got it. Right. And a computer keyboard. Yeah.
33:53
And you know, something that kind of looks like your mixer board and and writing the faders and playing like this on on on something that is just taking your your information composition by grid. Yeah. Yeah.
34:05
Without without giving any sort of resonance, any kind of wave or any like this gives back to it's talking back to you. So, and that's it. It talks back to you.
34:14
It's a conversation you're having.
34:16
Same with with a real piano or or if you or if you actually play a real drum like it's it's it's it's giving you a wave um form back to you, you know.
34:26
Did Norman tell you where that what the origin of that guitar was?
34:29
At least where it came from.
34:31
Uh they No, they didn't actually know the thing.
34:34
The thing it belongs to the devil.
34:38
Don't bring Don't you bring the devil into this house, Larson.
34:39
It's going to come down soon back home with you. Um yeah, I love it, man.
34:43
And I I I I love the stories that instruments if they could talk could tell.
34:47
Like how many living rooms has that sat in?
34:48
How many cars has that written in?
34:49
How many times has that been snatched out of someone's house as a form of revenge over a disagreement or you know what I mean? Absolutely.
34:56
And and yeah, I mean Serena has a violin from I think like 1700s, you know, and that that's been that's a tool that survived I don't know what 300 years of, you know, being on horseback and being Isn't that crazy?
35:09
It's also a mortgage for a house. Those violins are crazy.
35:13
You can find some crazy stuff.
35:15
Holy You start going down that rabbit hole.
35:16
That's a whole other thing. Yeah.
35:19
I mean, I've spoken I met a musician once who um told me he had a $2 million cello. Yeah. You're unsurprised.
35:26
Everyone else watching this is very surprised. This was not $2 million. No, but you know what?
35:32
It's made $85 million in it first weekend. So, hey, there it is. Drop the bomb. Nice. Yeah.
35:40
How did you celebrate the box office? Let's have some fun.
35:42
How did you celebrate when you started getting the numbers in?
35:44
I mean, we've seen lots of retellings of these stories and people make movies about making movies.
35:49
There's always a scene where it's like the box office numbers are in. What's going down?
35:52
It's happening in the studio on Apple TV Plus right now.
35:53
So, what is the what was it?
35:55
What we where were you when you started getting the information? I was in Italy.
35:58
Um Serena and I and and actually the kids right after the the London premiere, we actually just went straight to Italy. Smart run. Yeah.
36:11
um and spend some time as sleep actually because it's I I find it like you you you know you work on something for a very long time and it's so intense and I I do feel like sometimes if you if you stick around in LA or whatever you
36:26
finish the project and if you stick around with your normal life you kind of get into like a depressed thing right I mean at least for me like you're like okay I finished this I guess I'll go to the studio today and like not think about the movie anymore. Dude, you are
36:37
Dude, you are speaking my language.
36:40
I am the I suffer from circus leaves town syndrome like you wouldn't believe. Yeah.
36:43
I got I I need to like start making new memories straight away. So you have Yeah.
36:47
So that's you go away, you do your little a couple weeks of vacation and really just think about something else.
36:54
But but so you so we were there actually in Italy and we actually saw the movie is called Piccador in Italian and Spanish I think.
37:02
But but we saw it in Italy and it was dubbed and it was only me and Serena and and one other person in theater.
37:07
Um we saw it with the dubbed version.
37:09
But you're like, "Oh man, this ain't happening."
37:11
I mean, we need good news from back home real fast cuz right now I'm looking at the box office. This is bad. This is bad, guys.
37:16
Yeah, I was I was I was worried for a little bit.
37:18
was I was worried for a little bit. But but then I open up my phone and I was like, "Oh, this is, you know, uh it was just so so nice to see not just I mean not obviously the box office is incredible, but it's like seeing the sheer response of people that are like inspired people that like feel inspired
37:35
to create like there's people like sending me videos like them playing the if it's this song from the film or if it's maybe they're playing something slide guitar like oh I want to try to play blues guitar now or people like drawing or painting like It feels like it's just made people inspired in general. I think that's that's that's
37:52
I think that's that's that's really cool.
37:53
It is a remarkable thing you've undertaken here, all of you as a team.
37:56
And and just to zero in on the music for a second.
37:58
Um you know, for you, um you know, I I guess I want to know how you know it's good enough because you're a guitar player and you could pick up a guitar in your living room in front of your friends and knock out a blues lick and be like good enough. Yeah.
38:12
But when it's got to represent like like we're talking about the 1930s in a time when America is is like the rest of history forever, I'm sure. Yeah. I'm sad to say.
38:21
Um fighting its demons and music is the central core value proposition of the story.
38:27
How do you know okay that riff is good enough to hang a hook on it?
38:34
I think it's it's it's Yeah, it's great great question.
38:40
Um, I I think what's also really important about knowing that is this good enough is also like there's also a lot of things that I'm not going to play.
38:51
You know, I I I can play a a blues guitar riff like but I'm not going to I'm not, you know, I'm not going to there there's there's a few score cues that that has some guitar solos, beautiful blues guitar solos.
39:03
Like I'm not going to sit down and and play those, you know.
39:06
I there's people that can do it thousand times better than me that that that has it in their in their soul, you know, and and so for those blues solos and in the score like I worked I had uh Kingfish, incredible blues guitarist and Eric Gails playing, you know, ripping guitar solo when during the whole shootout.
39:25
That's that's that's during the whole shootout. Um that's a crazy scene. That's a crazy scene. Yeah. How crazy is that?
39:30
Like there's I'm playing like this this kind of 118 guitar riff and then you have Eric Gails like blasting like finger bullets soloing over there.
39:37
That's what I mean is like with the devil went down to Georgia instead of killing each other with fiddle riffs.
39:41
I feel like the the electric guitar is literally mass murdering people. I know.
39:46
I And and that's it's when Ryan was like why don't you just like why don't we have just a guitar ripping through this or you know we have that idea.
39:53
I was like, "Okay, this this would feel like something you would kind of just make a joke about when you're kids, you know?"
39:57
And that's kind of how we make this film.
39:58
Like we're like we we're still we met when we were kids.
40:00
We're still we still have that kind of mentality that that you know that me scoring his first student film in in my little bedroom in at USC is like we're still the same people, you know. Um I love that.
40:14
And then there's there's another scene where where um Stack and Mary are are talking in the juke joint and like he's kind of there's it's a very emotional moment.
40:23
He says something that makes her cry and and you hear this beautiful like soloing blues clean blues guitar in the background and that's King Fish playing.
40:35
So I think that that finding the right people to to do that and expressing those kind of emotions with with blues music and and real musicians was very important.
40:44
And then and then the other other thing I would say is this for the original songs you know finding the right people to write the original songs with. Yeah.
40:52
Because like I said like this these Robert Johnson's these songs from the 20s and 30s are extremely difficult to play and to sing and and and how how do we make songs like that today?
41:02
So working with musicians that are incredible instrumentalists like Rafel Sadi, you know, um, and Super Freak, Unique, Britney Howard, you know, and and these are musicians that incredible artists that can also play and and we were able to write those songs that that the movie needs.
41:20
I love that you work with Jerry Control as well as a massive Allison Chains fan. Yeah. No. Yeah. Jerry Contrell. Uh, we did Yeah.
41:29
For the soundtrack, we did some songs from the score.
41:30
I was able to work with Jerry Contrell.
41:32
Was that I mean, these are moments for you.
41:34
Okay, let's talk about you as a music fan. Yeah.
41:35
You know, you've got very broad taste.
41:38
You know, you it's it's it's shown in your work and I I I know that you know, you you grew up and your you formed your identity through heavy metal music.
41:48
Basically, that was like this is mine. Yeah.
41:50
I'll meet you back in on the on the blues trail 30 years time.
41:56
Um, so how much of this is kind of fantasy football for you a little bit as well where where you go, okay, it's got to be right for the soundtrack, it's got to be right for the song, but I'm a massive Allison Chains fan.
42:06
Like, I would love to work with Jerry Kra one day.
42:09
Like, does that does that play a role? Absolutely.
42:11
I think I'm I'm I'm I feel very fortunate to be working on projects that that where I can call someone like Jerry Contrell, I can call like James Blake, I can call you Don Toiver, you know, Ryan is a massive music head, you know, he knows he knows all Bay Area man.
42:28
I mean that's a big part of Yeah.
42:30
He was he was a massive Alison James fan. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, that's cool.
42:35
He was listening to them when I was writing the script, you know. Wow.
42:38
So that that was playing a part.
42:41
That's I I did read that that kind of like 90s grunge music was kind of a big part of that.
42:44
Did he explain to you why where he drew the connection between the two?
42:48
What drew him to that musical landscape in order to cover this one?
42:51
He was I think when he was working on what kind of forever one of his favorite he was listening to a lot of Young Dolph. Yeah.
43:01
and he got he got shot and killed and um uh another producer on Wakana forever.
43:11
forever. They were they were working late one night and Ryan was like I'm I'm so depressed like what kind of what is there any other kind of music where you know where the musicians artists are singing about the things that eventually will kills them you know
43:27
and and the other producer was yeah grunge music it's the same same thing and and then I think Ram's like yeah I mean I think it's like grunge music is is basically blues music sung by white people you What an observation for someone to make. We talk about manifestation in so
43:45
We talk about manifestation in so many positive lights.
43:48
And I've used it when talking about rap music to my friends and on the air where I've said, you know, you want to know in my opinion why rap music became the fastest selling, most successful genre of music in a record amount of time because people were talking about things they didn't have and then they attracted them. Yeah. It came to them. It's like, I have this. Yeah.
44:07
Well, now I actually do have it.
44:10
But equally in in music when you when you go to the dark places sometimes it can also happen too. Yep.
44:18
It's crazy that he would um even ask that question just to try to kind of better understand cuz we've lost so many greats.
44:24
I mean I think about like who's who's left from the ' 90s. It's just nuts. It is. It is. It is.
44:27
Um it is it is it is very sad. Yeah. Very sad.
44:34
Um the music is so phenomenal.
44:34
I I and the beautiful thing about watching this film is that you'll go and listen to the soundtrack and appreciate the music, but you'll carry the images with you in your head.
44:41
And I love that about it.
44:41
I love that the movie plays in your head regardless of whether you're watching it on the screen, which is really is a beautiful example of the symbiosis the two of you have. Yeah.
44:51
Um let's spend the last few minutes just talking about music. Yeah.
44:55
and away from movies for a second and just talk about like where the studio sits for you.
44:59
Not where you're scoring and working with Serena and working on big projects for big screens, but you know the the other fun side of it. What what what's that?
45:11
Making albums and collaborating, writing songs. I mean, yeah.
45:13
You know, does that is that of any interest to you?
45:16
Do you still have a desire to collaborate with artists?
45:19
Yeah, I mean I mean I definitely feel like on this on on on Sinners you know we really got got to do that.
45:25
I got to combine the two elements that I really love and and and put it up front and center in the film in a way where it's yeah this is song you know and you did that on Wakanda too but I mean I don't feel like you've made aside from from Donald you haven't I mean dude you made him first EP you were a producer producer before you even doing scores and stuff right or around the same time.
45:47
Yeah, around the same time. Um, yeah.
45:49
No, I I I do I do I do love making songs.
45:52
I do like working with artists.
45:54
Uh, you know, and and for me that's that's always been really um important for me for my own musical journey, for my own growth to sit with another not just I mean, no disrespect to directors.
46:08
I already know where you're going with this.
46:09
They're artists, but like but obviously to sit with with, you know, with another musician artist, work with them, have their get their vision out on on the paper or on the instrument and sit and create something is is amazing.
46:23
And and I think I think one of the one of the things now is just that, you know, when when I work on a film like it's I can, you know, if I'm and if I know if I'm working with a writer, director, like, okay, well, I'm going to get started here.
46:36
It's going to take a year, you know, we're one and a half year and you'll be done then and then I have another movie coming.
46:40
So, um, no, too many good problems, but Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Busy, busy.
46:45
And And also, you know, it's like Yeah.
46:49
No, that makes total sense, but also working with on songs now.
46:50
It's like it's it's I feel like it's so I mean, I wasn't around in the 90s, so I don't know how it knew I don't know how it was, but it's it's definitely like a very spur of the moment, right?
47:00
like this artist is in town or this, you know, he's she or he is doing or or they are doing a one day here, two days here.
47:08
It's like, you know, it's very rare that you're like, okay, four months from now, we're going to go make an album for 3 months, but you needed to be like that.
47:17
You can't be available on the spot kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
47:20
And I think it happens, but maybe not that often, but Well, I think you could I think if if if you wanted to you could make an album and say, "I'm available in 5 months time."
47:28
And there's a pretty good shot someone if they wanted you bad enough would stick around.
47:32
But to your point, you're in something for 2 years of you can't just like say I'll do it in two goes.
47:36
Can we put the movie on ice? Yeah. How did you feel?
47:39
Um I spoke briefly to Donald when he kind of came to the conclusion of of that that the childish Gambino era would had kind of run its course and you know a healthy positive retirement is a great thing.
47:50
So you know and he was very philosophical with me about it.
47:52
Um, how did you feel about it?
47:55
Because to some degree it must have must have been, you know, it must have struck an emotional core with you because it's been a big part of your life.
48:00
I mean, the two of you have been partners at this from Dot and achieved great creative strides together.
48:06
Yeah, it's it's been a huge part of of of my life.
48:09
I mean Donald and and Child's Campino and and being on that journey and touring and playing and putting together like all you know we have so many just family friends you know we are a family and and so it was definitely [Music] um you know it was definitely it was definitely a I I think I'm not sure if I'm not sure actually I still kind of wrap my head around it but um Mhm.
48:35
But it wasn't sad in a way like it was I wasn't sad like I feel like because I know that it's not like he's going to stop making music. Yeah.
48:44
No, I know he's not dead.
48:46
But but it is kind of interesting because we do become attached to these identities. Yeah.
48:49
They get presented to us and then then we apply them to our lives and so yeah he's has every right to do whatever he wants to do.
48:57
But it is kind of when you make a statement like that it's like okay that side of things is like I mean sometimes I go back and yeah listen to you know listen to a lot of we've done so much you know and then lot and yeah I'm very very proud of it. Yeah. It's incredible.
49:12
I think about Red Bone in that era and you know your mama you know we played your mama six times in a row in this show when it first came. You did? Yeah.
49:18
Play for 35 minutes uh and non-stop at the top of the show cuz we had the first play and so I was like we're just going to keep going and keep going and keep going and keep going. It sounds so good.
49:26
And I think about that era and what you guys both achieved at that point and we were used to like creative shape-shifting and this idea of no two projects being the same.
49:33
But that just felt to me in many respects it kind of I can trace a little bit of that to this because it felt like you went to a time and a place you timeraveled and were able to capture the origin and the feeling of a sound and modernize it if that makes sense. Yeah.
49:46
And also I think that you know that project I think was also just so connected to his dad you know and and and I think for and with this project this is also very connected to my dad. Yeah.
49:59
Um and you know you you can hear when when something really means something.
50:05
How'd your dad feel when he saw the film? He seen it three times.
50:09
He had he had to he had to see the it twice in Swedish to really understand with subtitles. that it doesn't matter.
50:17
Like he he he he understands it without understanding exactly what they're saying because like he he when he heard the blues for the first time when he was 14, 1964, you know, he didn't really understand the lyrics that but that music changed his life.
50:32
Um I had a great time talking with you, man.
50:35
I mean, you know, it's like I you know, I love you.
50:38
I love seeing I love seeing you around.
50:40
So, you know, this was um always on the cards and I'm glad we got to talk about on this film. Me, too.
50:43
I mean, yeah, it's it's always so great every time.
50:48
It's not often enough, but I get to see and talk a little about about talk a lot about music and a lot about everything else, just life.
50:54
Um, because there's, you know, like you said, like we only have music.
50:58
So, good to see you, man. Yeah, good to see you.