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You probably are drawing on your subconscious or your inner voice more than you are sitting at a table with a pen and a pad trying to figure it out.
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0:06
I'm never sitting at a table ever.
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I'm never sat at a table. What?
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This This is more of a workbench. A creative slab of wood.
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Yeah, this is like kind of too too big to be a table. Are you a table person?
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[Music] you left the last words of the album to be the last song title.
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It all was beautifully um pulled together in a really lovely and thoughtful way.
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So, let's just talk about the song.
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Where were you and where did it come from? I started writing it.
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I was in New York in a hotel room and um I was feeling these things.
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I was realizing finally like, wait, I'm not the person I want to be if I love someone and I'm not telling them.
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And I think a lot of people are like, should I say something? Should I not?
1:03
So many friends of mine setting an indecision. Yeah.
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I I think that if it's real love, it can it should be said.
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You know, there might be disappointment that someone doesn't want a relationship or um there might not be the romance or fantasy that you wish there was, but real love is a good thing no matter what happens.
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And kind of like since writing that, whenever people come to me for advice about that, I'm just like, "Say it. Be brave. Just say it." Yeah.
1:29
I mean, that's a huge realization to have because you're right, we sit in our we justify our indecision in all kinds of different ways and ultimately lose time and space and the opportunity to change our own lives.
1:41
Um, you know, this album to me feels like a life changer for you.
1:46
It feels like it's sort of come along after what all of us to put us in the same group would have considered was the life-changing album, but actually that's that's you and your friends and circumstances changed, but this feels like a life-changing experience.
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Yeah, it's definitely the record that has taught me the most.
2:02
It's definitely the most like current.
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Like while writing it, I was realizing these things. Oh wow.
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Are you out running them, catching up to them, or hoping that you can stay in them? Whoa. Um, right.
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Cuz you're not reflecting.
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So, it's all it's got to be some of the other things cuz reflection is like, well, I've already experienced it, so I've got to make sense of it.
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This is like, let me get it while I've got it or let me manifest it while it's while it's within arms reach.
2:25
It's all a whole different experience, isn't it?
2:26
I guess a lot of the time I I felt I was like in a mystery and so I would start writing from like what is this and then by the end of the song I'd be like oh it's that that's unexpected and so when you listen back to it as in some form perhaps it's just yours at that moment or is in the studio and it's taking some form or shape I guess it's the closest thing to understanding what you're feeling without actually knowing you're feeling it. Say that brother. Yeah. Yeah.
2:58
So like you finish the song, you listen back to it, you're kind of surprising yourself just in a way like we we had before and then comes the decision like do I finish it? Do I release it?
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Is it too close to the bone?
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Are there songs that have been too close to the bone for you to share at this point in your life? Yeah, for sure.
3:13
This even this felt really close to the bone, but then I'm like um it's what I have to give.
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Like if I were to like throw all of these out and write a bunch of fiction, that would be fine.
3:27
I could see enjoying writing fiction.
3:29
But um I don't know to not be sharing this would actually feel dishonest. Mhm.
3:34
And it's not like I need people to understand me and I can't even really make people understand me even when I'm trying.
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But um this is how I understand myself and so it's just what I have.
3:48
H forever is a feeling is the name of the album.
3:51
Uh Leakus the Leakus is here with us uh having a conversation. What's in the cup? Throat coat always. Okay. The quote though.
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What a desolate place would be a world without a flower.
4:10
You you'd never write that though. It's way too base.
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I don't think I would write too.
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That sits beautifully on a tea bag. Yeah.
4:15
Perfect for that much space.
4:19
So, how hard are you on your own writing?
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Are there times when you write something because you feel it in the moment and you're like, you know what?
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I'm going to I am going to overthink that.
4:27
I'm not sure that sits well with me.
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I'm not hard on my writing at all.
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I just know when something's done or not.
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So, if I don't like it, it's not done. It's not like it's bad.
4:36
How long do you like it for before you can't listen to it ever again?
4:40
I have to listen to it because I play it at the shows.
4:42
But that's different cuz that's that's that's a communal experience.
4:45
We get to share the songs.
4:47
I mean like listen to the music that you've made, you know, cuz that's pretty common. You know, you know this.
4:51
Most people can't listen to their own records when they're finished. Yeah.
4:53
I I don't listen to my records like for fun.
4:56
Um in fact, even when I'm making a record, I don't listen to it unless I'm showing it to someone. Interesting.
5:02
Um because if I listen to it too much, I will it'll just like the tracks of it will get too ingrained in my brain and I won't feel flexible in changing things. Wow.
5:11
So you you leave it with coll with with collaborators whether they're engineers, mixers or whatever and you just kind of move on to the next thing and then you and then you figure out how it's going to sit together and so you try to stay as removed as possible.
5:21
Oh, I don't I don't leave the room at all.
5:23
I'm hands- on every part of making it, but when it's when I'm out of the studio and like getting perspective, I'm not like I'll listen to it a little bit maybe like if I'm trying to figure out a transition between songs or like figure out if I really mean the lyrics.
5:38
But overall, I just I don't want to get tired of it.
5:43
I think I just want to enjoy the process as much as I can before I let it go. That's nice.
5:47
You know, I guess I listen to my voice memos a lot before going to the studio.
5:53
So, that's your version of that maybe.
5:54
Yeah, cuz usually I'll write like out loud to myself on a walk and I'll get home and make a little voice memo and then that Yeah, I have to I have to like enjoy that.
6:08
So, needless to say, you probably are drawing on your subconscious or your inner voice more than you are sitting at a table with a pen and a pad trying to figure it out.
6:17
I'm never sitting at a table ever.
6:17
I'm never sat at a table. What?
6:24
This is more of a workbench. A creative slab of wood.
6:27
Yeah, this is like kind of too too big to be a table. Are you a table person? Like genuine question.
6:37
Like at dinner, would you prefer to be sitting around or would you do how are you in formal situations? In formal situations? Yeah.
6:43
Um, in my I like to kind of eat everywhere but a table sometimes. I'm figuring this out. You're feeling bad. Yeah.
6:52
Unless people are over and like to set the table and have a whole light some candles like a whole thing.
6:57
What do you do with music at a dinner party?
6:59
Almost every dinner party start with D'Angelo Black Messiah front to back and then by the end by the end of it someone has said, "Oh, you know what we should listen to?"
7:10
And then someone else is the ax. Yeah.
7:11
And then honestly if we don't figure out something else, we'll restart that.
7:14
But that's the starting point. Richmond, Virginia. Yeah.
7:19
Well, not just him and you.
7:22
And I mean the Virginia something special.
7:24
Someone in the water as they say. Mhm. Pretty amazing.
7:25
Flesh-eating bacteria actually. Yeah. in the James Trevor.
7:30
So, you're all creative X-Men is what you're saying to some degree.
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You've been transformed to some kind of mutant variety of artistic spirit.
7:34
So, let's get back to the circumstances changing and and the the decision.
7:39
It's not even a decision.
7:41
I'd imagine it's just a it's a compulsion or a feeling to want to make something new.
7:44
Um but to come off what you've been through before, which it just looked like a riot.
7:49
I mean, this is so much fun to actually have a conversation with you cuz I'm just a blubbering idiot when the three of you come into the room. You know this.
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know this. I'm just like I was like last time I was here I had you had your friends I had my backup you had your crew you know and it was really fun and it was fun to see that on stage at all the shows and it was fun to see you come out at award shows and do the SNLs and all that stuff and it just looked like
8:08
it was I know how much hard work it is we all do you really committed but when you look back on it now and the work evaporates a little bit cuz work is work just fun it was a lot of fun it was fun in the moment it's fun looking back it was a lot of work in the moment it's a lot of work looking back I don't Oh, it's not separate from life. And I I
8:25
And I I feel like I've really enjoyed like I was looking forward to coming to talk to you cuz I'm like, "Oh yeah, I know that guy."
8:33
I've talked to a few like radio stations or other people that I met through that that I guess I'm kind of like building trust with.
8:41
I I feel more comfortable like entering spaces with them.
8:46
Whenever I return to those spaces, I have an automatic kind of like warmth for.
8:51
It's a nice way to introduce yourself to people you don't know under strange circumstances when you have friends next to you, right?
8:56
And you can kind of roll.
8:57
And I think music and art to this to this point is is increasingly sing an an increasingly singular experience.
9:05
I think even a lot of people making music on their own.
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Technology allows us to find out what we want to find.
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D I'm not saying the group mentality and collaboration doesn't exist, but it just feels like there's more opportunity to sit on your own than there was when you were kind of like, well, I need a bass player. I need a drum.
9:19
I need someone I can bounce these songs off, right, from being in the band and coming back to just yourself.
9:24
If that's kind of what inspired you to want to be more open and collaborative on this record cuz you like it, cuz you just wanted that.
9:31
Yeah, I like being like this is as far as I can think and then someone else picking up the ball and being like, well, here's three more avenues you didn't think of.
9:39
And that's I had like so many different producers on it because really it was like I knew generally how it would need to feel by the end of it, but I didn't always know how to get there.
9:53
I feel like I can get it like 85%.
9:55
And then the 15 I need help and I need different perspectives and I need to try a lot of different things and um yeah like I think I was in like five different studios and it was like over a year and a over a year recording it.
10:12
That is that's an perfect way to approach making a record, right?
10:14
Is to not feel like you've limited time, limited space, just limit any limitations at all.
10:22
And and you hear it like it sounds to me like you were searching the feeling you got it.
10:25
How did you know you had it?
10:27
When when did you know that it was done?
10:28
It is kind of hard to know cuz you could tinker forever. Execution.
10:31
I have friends that have been working on the same record for like seven years and I'm like I think you like working on this more than releasing it, which is cool. Yeah. And respect.
10:40
I can relate to that, too. Yeah. Yeah.
10:43
There's some I have songs again.
10:46
It's like if I don't It's not like whether the writing's good or bad. It's either done or not.
10:49
And I have writing that I've been like working on for 12 years or something. Not actively.
10:58
It's just you kind of have to wait until things come together.
11:00
But um what was the question? I don't know. Yeah.
11:07
I think it was something to do with how do you know that?
11:08
How did you know that Forever is a Feeling is complete? Yeah.
11:12
Um how did you know that you had this song that was going to finish it and okay, I got to let it go now? Like this is it.
11:16
Well, each song has to succeed for me on a mysterious metric.
11:20
I just have to listen to it and be like, I could do this or that, but it wouldn't actually change the effect.
11:26
And it's not done until By the you mean feeling. Yeah.
11:31
And it's kind of random what works.
11:34
Like the last thing we recorded was Harp and that finished Forevers of Feeling and Come Out and Modiglani just in one fell swoop.
11:41
Those songs were like it's not quite there.
11:46
And then Luna Lee came and tracked a bunch of cool harp and I was like, "Yeah, that that was it."
11:50
I think the mystery can be frustrating for people, but just like take your time.
11:56
Being being in the mystery doesn't mean that you're like incapable.
12:01
It's just like just keep messing around.
12:03
Is that a sort of a space you try to get into in your life, even outside of creativity, which is like being okay being in the gray, in the ambiguous and the mystery of things? Yeah. Nuance abounds. Damn it.
12:14
I was going to be That was a begrudged explosion.
12:17
I even went to the restroom before we started this and I was like, I've got to figure out how to get nuance abounds in this interview and you just did it. Leakus, you beast. hell.
12:29
I mean, with the greatest of respect, love, and admiration. Kind of you.
12:34
You know, I was so ready to do that. I guess I was.
12:39
You're so proud of yourself as well.
12:40
We're both like no bounds. I'm so mad.
12:45
I'm just I'm more angry at the fact that I made a conscious decision after you said that when you were in the green room to try to figure out how I was going to get it in than I am that you got it in before me.
12:53
I think this is not making sense probably to anyone.
12:56
But we were in the green room.
12:59
Dus said something like nuance abounds.
13:01
And then we were all just obsessed with those two words sitting together cuz they just feel really weird. Nuance abounds. Nuance abounds. What is it? What is nuance abounds?
13:08
And then you know neither of us said it but we both had an unspoken decision.
13:11
And I suppose you were going to factor it in.
13:13
I didn't really decide that.
13:15
You just kind of led me led me to nuance of bounds.
13:18
Well, now I'm real mad cuz I did.
13:20
I went to the restroom was like, I'm going to get that in.
13:23
You looked in the mirror.
13:23
You were like, nuance of bounds. Nuance. She's smart.
13:26
For once in my life, I'm going to be smarter than Leakus.
13:27
You say nuance abounds three times in the mirror. Nuance appears. Nuance abounds. Yeah. Okay.
13:36
We've really lost everybody now. Yeah.
13:38
So, if you've always been a fan of nuance of bounds, see, I was 2 minutes too late. Um, when Okay.
13:44
What kind of kid were you?
13:46
What kind of kid were you?
13:46
I really love to be at the base of a tree.
13:48
I really love to be in a tree.
13:51
I'd love to get all of my stuff and find like a hollowed out something.
13:56
Or like, you know, in a big bush like as a kid, you could get under it and it's kind of looks like a rainforest like Yeah.
14:02
Or um like if someone had a closet under the stairs or like my parents' bed was at a diagonal to the corner so it made this corner you had a space space that was private.
14:17
Going into a tiny place with all of my things was like my favorite thing to do which I still kind of do. Yeah.
14:23
I love my like I don't know my house is kind of small and full of my books and yeah it's very cozy. It's your spot. Yeah.
14:31
I think I'm kind of a similar guy.
14:33
I'm trying to hang out with a tree. Yeah.
14:35
And think my little thoughts.
14:38
Somehow you find yourself in a job that requires you to be in big rooms and sometimes in uncomfortable situations probably.
14:43
And so that but that's just maturity, right?
14:47
Like you can't stay in your private universe forever.
14:49
You've got to figure out how to be in both.
14:50
Have you figured out how to take it with you?
14:52
Like when you're in rooms of people and it's lots of people really happy to see you and really celebrating you or whatever, is there a part of you that is in your private space still?
15:01
Yeah, I think it's I I have to believe that people are with me in good faith.
15:10
Um, especially at shows like they bought a ticket, they want to be there, they want to have a good time, and they appreciate what I do, and I appreciate them being there.
15:20
So, I can just kind of ruminate on like the positive aspects of that. Um, yeah. Yeah.
15:26
And then in my personal life, just like keeping it lowkey, keeping it lowkey. Keeping it lowkey.
15:34
And yet people are love you and they love your music and that draws them.
15:38
Look, you called it, man.
15:38
We spoke about it like bite the hand was like this is the playbook. Understand? Yeah. Understand?
15:45
I'm very aware of how this can go. Yeah. Right. It's true. It can get weird.
15:50
It was a very self-aware moment for any artist at at a point.
15:52
you already were releasing great songs, but the point of something you knew was going to be fascinating to all three of your various fan bases to establish a point of view that was like, look, let's not let's try to keep the weird as low as we possibly can. Mhm.
16:05
I just like I'm I'm remembering that you're a person when I'm seeing you do the same for me. Yeah.
16:14
I And I think actually a lot of artists aren't or can't.
16:16
It's kind of nerve-wracking.
16:18
I make a lot of eye contact in my shows because I have to remember like I go to shows and I stand there and I'm a person and I'm not a you just have to like fight especially when there's like this exchange involved like people buying tickets thinking they're entitled to something like you you have to mentally block against commodifying yourself or other people.
16:40
Um I think this is like outside of music too.
16:43
I think this is maybe like no matter what your job is.
16:47
It's just kind of in the air.
16:49
It's the capitalism of it all.
16:51
We're all commodifying ourselves.
16:51
You have to like really just stay centered on the fact that everybody is their own.
16:59
Otherwise, it gets really performative. Mhm.
17:01
Not just in the performance industry. Yeah.
17:03
It like socializing is by its very nature quite a performative thing. Yep.
17:07
And a word that keeps coming up with other friends of mine and people I interview in in the in the arts right now is this kind of search for balance.
17:16
This balance between kind of like uh the identity that we all get to know and appreciate and and in a very sort of like above board way kind of fall in love with because of the music, right?
17:28
And then who the person actually is behind that.
17:30
and and and it seems to me like like the time is up almost for the kind of rockstar era of like what you see is what you get. I'm the same person. Love me, love my music. It's like no, no, no.
17:41
We would like to actually do both. Mhm.
17:42
Does that resonate with you?
17:45
This idea of meaning so much to people when you play your shows and putting music out, but also saying, I don't there's going to be limitations to this.
17:52
There's only so much you can control is one thought I just had.
17:55
And then the other thought was balance implicates that it's two things but it's not like your life is one thing.
18:05
When people talk about work life balance I feel like maybe there's some flaw in that because your work is your life too.
18:16
So and I think sometimes people like work life balance they're trying to figure out okay how much rest do I actually need in order to be more productive or to be okay with the work that I'm doing.
18:25
And it's like there might not be an amount of rest.
18:27
It might not be a math problem.
18:29
It's like the balance is kind of you with yourself.
18:35
But that's always to me I think where the stickiness has been at least presented is the stickiness is is coming from this place of like, hey, don't get it twisted.
18:41
The songs are the songs and I am who I am.
18:43
that you're potentially suggesting from what I'm getting from you is that actually if you keep it simple and then you're just able to kind of like create some normal human boundaries, then there's less sort of uh mystery and fascination over you because it's like, well, the songs are me and I'm the songs and it's the same thing. Yeah. Yes.
19:01
I love that people love my music. Yeah. That's awesome.
19:05
Like I'm not being like don't care. Yeah. Yeah. Like I care.
19:11
I would not be doing all of this if I didn't want people to hear it and maybe have a nice time and something they can take away.
19:17
Like, uh, it just is like, yeah, check your behavior. Check your behavior.
19:24
Like, and also like I was just thinking like this is my fourth record and this is the first record maybe maybe a little bit the past two with Boy Genius and Home Video, but people are asking me about fame a lot and I'm wondering if it's because they can tell I'm just some guy reporting from the field like somehow I'm in all of these places where they're like you're undercover.
19:48
I feel kind of undercover.
19:51
I'm like how did I get here? Yeah.
19:53
So yeah, it's been funny just like uh this whole conver I'm very interested in I guess notoriety like you said with the bite the hand thing or wanting to to have you know some distance and how to maintain mutual respect. It's a tra it's a trade. Yeah. Yeah.
20:09
And also I think part of it is because you and the boys made getting famous look really fun and and and a lot of people don't a lot of people go oh god you know and you guys were like well we're having a good time.
20:21
And we've got each other.
20:23
We've got each other's backs. Lean in.
20:24
Have a good time with it. Yeah.
20:27
And two of us will back the other one if the other one's struggling and we'll figure it out. Oh, yeah.
20:30
This whole interview I would have been looking over here for some eye contact.
20:36
I would have been looking over here for some eye contact. That was really nice. I am missing that. Yeah, bet.
20:39
Um, but yeah, luckily they're not the only ones making eye contact with you.
20:44
Like you guys over there.
20:47
Like we definitely we try to create that environment.
20:50
I mean, yeah, that's why I was saying I was looking forward to coming here cuz it's like that.
20:54
But, uh, yeah, that you can do that at any time. Yeah.
20:57
I think the the parasocial nature of things, it's like I understand why that happens because it's almost like it happens more when you realize they're a real person.
21:08
Let's talk about the album.
21:09
Let's talk about this music that you've made.
21:11
Um, and let's just go through some of the songs and figure out kind of what they mean to you now you've done and what you learned from them.
21:16
Starting with um with Big Deal.
21:18
To me, what I love about that song is how it's it's it's a beautifully restrained bombastic start.
21:23
It's like you usher us in with weight, but it's not like sonic sound. Boom.
21:28
Wait, this is the first cuz, you know, I love um I love the prelude, but it it's just this it's like this beautiful scene set for where you are in your life.
21:37
Did you always know that was going to be the this first song on the track list? I thought so. Why?
21:42
thought so. Why? cuz it even just thematically I mean for me the lyrics are kind of the whole point of the thing and it starts with this like oh there's feelings on the table we're not going to do anything about that you're a big deal though love you like can't believe you
21:58
know but the restraint is he the arm is firmly out and then through the course of the record it's like being like wait maybe I can't live with myself if I am not honest about how I feel maybe it would be a colossal loss in my life if you were not near and dear to me. Did it surprise you that you
22:16
Did it surprise you that you came to that conclusion given how easy it is as human beings for us to ignore that feeling? Um, yeah. I I was surprised.
22:24
I think I'm I'm like very much like not trying to hurt anybody, which translates to never even getting in touch with my own desires, right? Um, and yeah.
22:34
So, I'd rather make the people happy around me that I care about than like that makes me happy enough.
22:43
So, who cares what would make me happy independently?
22:47
But I'm kind of getting over that, you know, that's a really powerful realization um to come to.
22:52
And um we can talk about the feelings.
22:56
So, how does that feeling overshadow all the others when you know that it's just it's how do you know it's love?
23:02
How do you know it's love?
23:06
I don't even really know what you're asking by that, you know, like or what anyone would mean by that.
23:09
Is it love or is it not love?
23:13
Like what is the underlying question?
23:14
Cuz you are we're we're bound by love.
23:18
So either you're acting on that or you're not.
23:25
I feel like you're talking about romantic love or something.
23:27
I'm talking about the realization that it's like it can't sit as a unresolved feeling anymore and therefore the because the nature of that song is to is to find the courage to to explore it.
23:41
I guess for me uh I I've failed at my usual business of being like I can control how I feel and my actions and whatever.
23:50
Um, and I, you know, I can control my actions, but yeah, you can't control how you feel.
23:57
And, um, I guess like my feelings were so persistent that I was like, my life is going to be unbearable if I don't live into this. Yeah.
24:10
Like truly, I was like to a detrimental level.
24:15
just like I think I'll hate myself if I am not honest about this if I don't make changes and make way and see about this.
24:28
There's all kinds of people that all these songs can be about and now they belong to us.
24:31
They about all of us and all of our relationships and all the people that we care about and that's the beauty of the sharing of music and stuff like that.
24:37
Um but there is some like pretty brutal observations in here.
24:40
There's some pretty brutal imagery.
24:40
The idea of being in a pinstripe suit being sincerely happy.
24:43
There's nothing sincere about that statement and I took it on it at all.
24:46
Even though it probably meant it, it's like my initial feeling as a listener and a fan of that is like how can you be sincere about something that you're genuinely struggling to even comprehend?
24:56
I beautiful use of the word though. I love that. I love that. Thanks.
25:00
You know, at the time I was delusional.
25:03
So I was like for real sincerely I'll be happy. I'm good. Don't worry about me.
25:09
And then that's part of why I'm like, "Okay, I figured out how I felt through this record because I started there and I thought that was true and then I realized that it wasn't and that I was going to be heartbroken."
25:21
Isn't it tough when you realize you're a liar? It's so harsh. Well, lying. Yeah. Yeah. To yourself.
25:26
if I mean to yourself and to others, but primarily like I try not to like I go to great lengths to try and be honest and yet there are these like uncovered things that like my intentions can be good.
25:39
And they're skirting around the truth or something less and less hopefully.
25:45
Um it's funny you bring this up.
25:49
I've I had this happen on a song from the last record, Christine, where it was about like wanting to object at my friend's wedding um because I didn't think she would actually be happy and everyone was like, "Oh my god, she's in love with this person."
26:01
And I was like, "No, you and that one person."
26:06
Um and then years after it came out, we uh confessed feelings for each other and out of here. Yeah.
26:15
She and I dated for a while. And yeah, I like that. So, it's interesting.
26:23
You know, it's again, you can't rely on people understanding you or you can't rely on everybody being reached.
26:28
But there I think that my fans sometimes get it more than I do.
26:34
Do you know what I'm saying?
26:36
Like you being like, I don't believe that at all.
26:38
Or like people being like, you're in love with this person.
26:42
me being like, well, I just spoke to someone earlier today who self-reerenced and was mortified that he self-referenced one of his own songs, but self-reerence one of his own songs in relation to how it related to his life years later.
26:53
And it made me wonder like whether or not that actually does happen.
26:56
And I didn't do a follow-up with him on that, but I but I did think actually as the conversation moved forward, I was like, "Oh man, I'd love to ask Lucy that like whether or not you ever sort of find yourself actually referencing life before you get to even live it." Oh my gosh. through lyrics. Yeah.
27:13
And I think that's an instinctual thing.
27:16
Like I don't uh I think some people can predict the future in that they can instinctually just tell where the rudder is pointed to.
27:27
Um and then also if you think that that's what's going to happen, you kind of orient that way and then you make it the world kind of opens up in that direction. Yeah.
27:37
It's almost like your inner voice is is just take is has has control of the wheel for a second, you know, and it's like, listen, you may not be listening, but we're going to find a way for you to figure this out cuz Yep. if you're open to it. Annoying. So annoying.
27:50
So why can't it just be simple?
27:53
Why can't I just rip bongs and drink beers and just pretend like none of it matters?
27:56
Well, you can, but then none of it matters. Really empty. Yeah, it's pretty empty. Mhm.
28:01
One of my favorite songs on this album is uh the title track is Forever is a Feeling.
28:05
And so I wanted to focus in on that song and and obviously you feel the same way because it's the title of the album and so you gave it special prize.
28:11
So um it's just a beautiful phrase um and also a great name for an emo band back in the early 2000s. Wow. Respect. What's up?
28:22
We're forever is a feeling. Let's do this. Wow.
28:24
That just sent me somewhere.
28:27
I that sent me to Strange Matter in Richmond, Virginia. RIP.
28:29
This uh this this wonderful song.
28:32
Where were you when you wrote that?
28:35
So, I wrote the phrase forever is a feeling first. Um, just in my note.
28:40
I kind of whenever I have a little thought like that that feels interesting, I'll put it in like this long note. I have one per year. Oh, wow. So, you do it annually. Mhm.
28:47
It's called various bits 2025.
28:49
Is it tactile or digital?
28:53
Uh, I have I try to do paper, but the digital one is, you know, like if we were talk sometimes I'll have a thought in the middle of talking and I'll be like, "God, I hope that stays."
29:03
and then I'll go back to the green room and type a little bit.
29:05
Have you had a thought during this conversation? Um, actually kind of. Oh, yeah.
29:09
It's completely irrelevant.
29:11
This is I also I think I write like this a lot. Yeah.
29:14
Where it's like if I'm focused on one thing, things kind of like boil and percolate on another level. I am here though.
29:22
So, you wrote the you wrote the phrase down.
29:23
Wrote the phrase down and then I kept being like feeling lazy. Not going to touch that.
29:30
you know that that'll be a good song one day.
29:32
And then it came around to naming the record and I was like, I like this as a name.
29:36
So I named the record before I wrote the song.
29:38
And then I was like, I always meant to write this song.
29:42
I think I'm just like not putting in the leg work.
29:45
And so I did sit down, scrolled through, sat down and went through the notes. Went through the notes.
29:50
So writing editing I can sit down and do, but the writing kind of has to come whenever.
29:56
This doesn't apply to writing for other people, which I really enjoy doing, and want to do more of because that feels like an amazing puzzle. So, it's different.
30:04
I can sit down and I write very like I'll be like, "Okay, here's four verse options."
30:10
And then, well, it makes total sense because if you're writing for yourself, really, you're waiting for that inner voice to speak to you, whereas you're writing for somebody else.
30:16
It's like that inner voice may not apply to this person's life.
30:17
I just like listen to their whole discoraphy and I try to internalize what matters to them.
30:23
And then that kind of like gives a framework from where to start from and also talking to people.
30:27
Anyways, different kind of completely different skill set.
30:33
But I saw these bits that I wished had gotten together like the idea in the first verse of someone driving you and you knowing the shortcut and them knowing the scenic route and you not saying anything so that you can spend more time together in the car. Like that was one idea.
30:47
It's almost like the big screen like the big major studio version of the uh Leonard Cohen's indie film. Oh yeah, a little bit.
30:58
It is like like you sort of like did the short film and everyone loved it and so it's like okay let me make a big a big like write a big script about that.
31:04
We'll do Yeah, we'll do the whole script.
31:05
Um yeah and also like that is a very being in cars is so rife for intimacy. You're stuck there.
31:13
You're between your lives.
31:15
You just have to be you're usually showing each other music or I feel like I've had some of the most important conversations of my life in the car.
31:25
Well, you're also concentrating on something simultaneously which takes the anxiety away from being super focused on you. Mhm.
31:30
And so it's like you can't make eye contact.
31:32
You can't make eye contact.
31:33
It's way more comfortable to talk about deep when you're looking where you're going or looking out the window than it is sitting at a table. Yeah. Do you like road trips? Do you like to drive? I don't drive.
31:45
You don't have a license. I had one. And who had a license?
31:54
To lit up a like I literally know how.
31:57
And I had like a scary uh like I can tell you driving home from recording No Burden actually like before really anything happened like my first record.
32:09
I was three hours into driving from V from Tennessee to Virginia and someone tried to merge into me without a blinker and I slammed on the brake so hard I lost control of the car on a four-lane highway where one side was a cliff face
32:22
and the other side uh there was a metal barrier and then there was a bridge and I went in three circles all the way around took my hands off the wheel like Jesus take the wheel style and said to the person in the car I'm sorry and they said it's Okay. And like time slowed
32:38
And like time slowed down and then as if I parallel parked between in a spot as big as the car between the metal rail and the bridge.
32:49
My car just whooped and like we weren't hit at all, but like all these other cars had to like swerve and get out of the way.
32:57
It was like really dramatic looking.
32:58
Like 18-wheelers were trying to dodge us. No one got hurt.
33:04
Everyone pulled over and like, "Are you okay? We saw that guy. Crazy."
33:07
I just I know you're supposed to get back in the saddle.
33:09
I just didn't I don't blame you. Yeah.
33:11
Not to be too sort of hyperfocused on that experience, but how did it affect your life beyond the driving in terms of like, hey man, look, some there are things out there I just can't control and things I don't understand.
33:20
How did my car end up here and how did me relinquishing control ultimately end up in the best possible scenario from a potential tragedy?
33:29
Well, this is funny to say.
33:29
I called like the person I was with at the time and um I was like, "Oh my god, I almost died."
33:35
And they were like, "What?"
33:35
and like some girl was like laughing in the background and like they were cheating on me and so I was like wow I need to go home and think about this you know like wow yeah so that's an immediate wow thing um that ain't lost on me or anybody that's that's an that's an intense wakeup call absolutely so there's that um I yeah I think I just stay aware that I'm not in control of much and that Um, life is just a collection of close calls.
34:08
Uh, I feel like whether you're paying attention or not, there's at least a thousand a day.
34:16
And that was just a really obvious one.
34:18
Do you feel looked down upon in a good way?
34:19
Do you feel that there's a spirituality attached to your life?
34:26
I thought you meant like looked down upon like um, right now in the studio, do you feel looked down upon?
34:32
Look down upon like you're not a good driver or just so granular.
34:36
I was so moving forward into the wide macro and you were like, "Wait, I wasn't even the one who cut me off."
34:43
Like, what are you talking about?
34:43
Um, do you put much emphasis into the spiritual experience before outside of this physical experience?
34:50
It was emphasized in my youth so much that I'll always have a shadow of it everywhere.
34:58
Honestly, I'm I'm coming all back around and thinking there's something kind of delightful about that.
35:01
So it was it was a pretty heavy religious influence on your life when you were younger. Absolutely. Yeah.
35:06
I grew up in a um Baptist church in Virginia. Yeah.
35:08
Went non-denominational at a time, which I thought was like progressive and cool, but they actually do that.
35:14
I found out because if you stay within a denomination, you have to switch out the pastor.
35:19
So I think it might have been so that our pastor could keep his job. Oh wow. Okay.
35:23
I don't know for sure, but that's practical. He was also very smart. Yeah. Yeah.
35:28
Um I like learned a lot about Aramaic and stuff like kind of like nerdy parts of like Christianity.
35:34
But So you stay you stayed interested in the concept of religion but just you just didn't want to be beholden to one particular ideology at that time in your life. Yeah.
35:42
I think I'm I think about these things all the time.
35:44
I mean it comes up on the record like I just did all these shows in churches and museums and stuff.
35:50
Especially the church shows felt cool because I'm like singing the songs and being like, "Oh, there I am talking about God again in here. Are we good? Are we good?"
36:02
You know, I think at their best they are a refuge and they're a reminder of um like all that is worth reverence. Yeah. And stillness.
36:13
You can't help but talk in song, huh?
36:15
It's a reminder of all that is worth reverence. Oh my god. That's another emo bet. What's up?
36:22
We're all That's worth reference. Let's do this Yeah. Um, it's true. I Yeah, I'm sorry.
36:26
I think it's just kind of like that when you come see when you say you're coming back to it and you're sort of starting to think about it again and re and and and kind of some of that's probably like life lived and maturity and acceptance of like the the we live lots of lives.
36:43
It's nice when sometimes they meet up and understand each other rather than just get rejected for growth. You know what I mean?
36:49
I think it it is uh more than like growth in one direction.
36:55
Having an understanding that loops back around is is really humbling.
36:56
I think that's maybe what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And like I don't know.
37:00
I never had like a mom and dad, I don't believe in God like type of moment.
37:05
Like I'm confessing that I don't get that.
37:09
Like I think I thought about God so much it it kind of sublimated and I just started to feel like uh hubris and like if I think I can speak on this as one little guy. Yeah.
37:26
This is way bigger than me. Yeah.
37:26
I need to tell you my position. Yeah.
37:28
I still think about it a lot.
37:30
But um and then yeah, it just like shades and eras of anger at the way people use religion to hurt each other and um the way like religion is wrapped up into our political climate and um that's the sadness of it. Yeah.
37:47
Cuz I think that by by its very intention, it's here to create purpose on an otherwise fairly meandering type of experience.
37:54
Like what does this mean?
37:57
Sometimes I watch those programs, right, that are like set in the 1800s and 1900s and I'm like, "Holy that was just brutal."
38:06
Like you go outside, you're either going to get killed by somebody or mowled by a wild animal or the winter's going to get you or you get gang green or you stub your toe and die from sepsis or it's just like everything is death. Do you know what I mean?
38:19
And so when religion sort of comes into play, if you think about those times, it's like, "Yeah, God." Yeah. Yeah.
38:23
What I got to what I got to do to get through this life, right?
38:27
Also, like a lot of early We're really going all over the place, huh? But I say that Yeah. It's It's great.
38:33
It's like how I like to talk to people.
38:35
But um early like in in the Bible there all the stuff that is like don't what we translate as like being against gayness is next to like and a woman with child shouldn't drink the juice of a grape.
38:51
Y it's like it's just observing like if this happens something bad medically happens and that was trying to protect kids from fetal alcohol syndrome. Yeah.
39:05
But it was just written in a language which is like this kind of hugely revered script and it's like wait isn't that just a PSA to some degree. Exactly.
39:13
There's just some organization of how do we treat each other?
39:15
Let's notice cuz also like a plague of locust and you don't know why somebody did something wrong and God sent this, you know, or like, oh, this child is cursed because the mother did this and God didn't like it.
39:30
It's like, no, there's just a scientific reason for that. Yeah. I don't know.
39:35
I think people got to lighten up on some of those things. Yeah, for sure.
39:39
Um, so you're going to go out on the road, which is great, and that's really exciting for all of us to get to see you perform these songs.
39:45
And, um, you know, I'd imagine that it's kind of nice to be able to have taken a break from being just Leakus and making albums after album and cycle after cycle and even just have some space to know how these songs now live with these songs and like I guess some of the old ones just kind of changed shape for you a little bit, right?
40:03
Coming back and reacquainting yourself even just being like, "Oh yeah, that I can't wait to play that."
40:08
I added a band member, Phoenix Rosie Manis, who played all the violins on the record. Amazing. Um, she's so great.
40:14
And now that we have violin, I'm like, what can we do from the back catalog that like could benefit from a violin?
40:20
And um, so that's been fun.
40:23
I'm actually going next week to start.
40:25
We've had some band practices and it's felt so good.
40:27
And um, yeah, I was thinking about how it's so good that the shows exist.
40:32
like people that do movies and stuff, you're creative for a couple of weeks and then your whole life is promo. Mhm. All of it. Mhm. It sounds miserable.
40:44
Like at least in music, you get to perform and you get to like have one ofone like set in time creative experiences.
40:54
Like it it makes me very grateful.
40:56
It's deeper than that, too, because a lot of the time I've got friends who are actors, a lot of the time that they'll go out to do the promo and they haven't they only just saw the film.
41:03
So, it's not even their creative, they're promoting it.
41:05
They're playing an integral role in in selling tickets and getting streams, but they're like, "Shit, I got to go out there and they don't know."
41:12
And sometimes they don't like it. Yeah.
41:15
But they got to promote it. Yep.
41:16
And that's t that is tough.
41:16
At least with music, you don't have to put it out if you don't like it. That's right.
41:22
It remains to this day the only remaining pure form of mass communication that isn't controlled to some degree by somebody else.
41:30
If you think about it like social media is gone. Yeah. It's gone. It's gone.
41:34
It's owned and it's controlled.
41:38
The media, I hate to say it, but for the most part, with a few exceptions, holding on for dear life, kind of gone. Yeah.
41:45
Whereas music remains this way to communicate with each other in a very direct frequency. Mhm.
41:51
That's why I think that's why that's why I think it's under attack a lot.
41:54
I'm pretty conspiratorial about that.
41:56
I think it's not just like, "Oh, who cares about the arts?"
41:57
I think it's, "Oh, no, we really care about the arts.
42:00
That's why we need to control the arts." Yeah.
42:01
I also think like shows are so important, just like physically showing up together.
42:07
And um there's something maybe like not even something ineffable about just being in the same place with people wanting to do the same thing for a positive reason and you don't even know what they believe. That's the other thing. You have no idea.
42:21
You could be completely at odds ideologically, politically with the person next to you.
42:25
Chances are you're going to bring a pretty like-minded group of people together, but it's not going to shock you to know that there are some Lucy Dus fans that don't believe everything you believe.
42:33
Certainly politically, they just like the music.
42:35
And so, you're just going to have to stand in a room with them and suck it up cuz you don't know, right? You just don't know. Yeah.
42:39
And that's like, I guess not the point of the time.
42:43
But also it's like if you can come to care about people first then the conversations around disagreeing can actually maybe move people in the more heartful direction which I think is always towards a more accepting or progressive tilt future. Future. Yeah.
43:06
Cuz words are great but we just keep wasting them. Mhm.
43:08
I don't think there's a replacement for who we are to each other physically.
43:14
I think that um was good. It was good.
43:20
I mean, like obviously we're making something that's going to exist online.
43:24
Online is a good place to gather information and figure out who to talk to and like kind of muse, but ultimately like all of all of the ideas are for you and your life and the people around you.
43:38
And I think it's like it would be like the government's dream for everyone to be satisfied with community being something that is on your phone cuz you stay at home and you don't organize.
43:49
It's so easy controllable. Yes. Yeah.
43:51
So I think going out going to places and just again trying to take people in good faith um or meeting on grounds of good faith is really important.
44:07
It's probably the only place where nuance abounds. [Music]