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We all have a place of knowing inside of us.
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And we sometimes it's almost like we get lost and we can't find it because we're so concerned about how people are going to feel about the way we feel.
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So you really got to work through your stuff so that you can meet the person that you're going to have true authentic chemistry with and not this kind of like chaotic chemistry with.
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I'm really excited and grateful for today's guest.
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I think this is going to be a conversation that I know a lot of you have been looking forward to and I know it's going to be a conversation that's going to help you with wherever you are in life right now.
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So please please please welcome to the show the one and only Lori Gottlieb.
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Now Lori Gottlieb is a psychotherapist, a New York Times best-selling author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone which is being adapted as a television series with Eva Longoria.
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In addition to her clinical practice, she writes the Atlantic's weekly Dear Therapist advice column and contributes regularly to the New York Times and many other publications.
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She's a member of the advisory council for Bring Change to Mind.
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Lori is a sought-after expert in media such as the Today show, Good Morning America, and NPR's Fresh Air.
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Her new Dear Therapist podcast produced by Katie Couric and co-hosted with Guy Winch helps listeners to see themselves more clearly and debuts this spring.
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Make sure you check it out and subscribe in advance.
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I'm excited to learn more about therapy, human relationships, and more.
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Welcome to the show Lori and her new book Maybe You Should Talk to Someone.
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We will put the link to the book into all the captions and comments so make sure you go and grab a copy.
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Lori, thank you for being here.
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Well, thank you for having me.
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Now, this is a real treat and as we were preparing I I ran into how many mutual friends we have or mutual people that we've crossed paths with.
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So, I've interviewed Guy Oh, wow.
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uh uh a many, feels like many lifetimes ago, but when I was at HuffPost with Arianna Huffington.
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And at the same time, Eva Longoria is a really close friend.
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So, it's just uh I feel like and and then you know Jim and Amon. Yes. So, yes.
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all comes together, it's always uh small world. Absolutely. Absolutely.
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But, um tell I want to start somewhere where I'm not sure, maybe you get asked it a lot or not, but I'd love to start with tell me about your latest adventure with your son.
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Uh My latest adventure with my son.
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Well, there are a lot of adventures because he's 14.
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And uh he uh you know, he's a really interesting person at this age.
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I think that when kids are younger, um you have you have more of a There's more of a hierarchy Mhm. in the family.
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Um and I think all of a sudden they start thinking in all of these complex ways, and they make you they hold up a mirror to you and make you ask questions about yourself and the world in a different way.
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So, I would say our adventures are conversations. Nice.
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And and it does Does what you know about the human mind and connection and relationships, where does it help and where does it hinder in the parenting process?
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That's such a great question.
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You know, I think what it does is it gives me an awareness of the importance of letting kids letting people access their feelings.
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So, so many times as parents we get uncomfortable with a feeling that our kids are having, and we try to talk them out of their feelings.
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So, you know, a kid says, "I'm angry about that." And we say, "Really? You're so sensitive."
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Or we say, you know, or or they say, "I'm sad."
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And we say, "Oh, you know, well, here's a balloon.
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You know, let's go to Disneyland." Right?
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We try We try to like sort of talk them out of it, or "I'm scared."
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And we say, "Oh, don't be scared.
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There's nothing to be scared about. Be brave."
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Um and I think what happens is then people don't know how to access their feelings cuz they were always talked out of them.
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So, I think the the benefit, you know, the upside of being the child of a therapist is that nothing gets swept under the rug.
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You know, the downside is that he'll be totally screwed up anyway because you know, that's life.
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Yeah, and what are what are the lasting effects of that?
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I I what you're saying is spot-on, like we're always trying to negate or neglect feelings and emotions that people share with us.
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What are the long-lasting effects of that?
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Well, I think in adulthood. Right.
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I think what happens is that people try to get rid of their feelings.
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They don't realize that feelings are positive, that our feelings are a compass, that they tell us they give us information.
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If you're sad, why are you sad? What needs to change?
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If you're anxious, what is that telling you about what's not working in your life?
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Even envy, people are so afraid of envy, and I always say to people, follow your envy, it tells you what you want.
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So, instead of sitting there and looking at what everybody else has, say, what do I want?
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How can this help me to take the the small step that I need to take to do something different so I can have what I want.
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So, what happens is people will minimize their feelings.
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Um you know, well, I have a roof over my head and food on the table, so I shouldn't be sad, I shouldn't be anxious, I shouldn't feel the way that I feel.
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Um people will um try to numb out their feelings.
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So many people feel like um you know, numbness is is a way of you know, like kind of managing their feelings.
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But, I feel like numbness isn't nothingness.
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Numbness is um it's not hap- it's not not having feelings, it's being overwhelmed by too many feelings.
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And your feelings don't go away just because you push them down.
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And that's the problem because our feelings will come out in behaviors, in a short-temperedness, in anxiety, in too much food or wine or time on the internet.
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A colleague of mine calls the internet, she said, it's the most effective short-term non-prescription painkiller out there. True. True.
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And and like every non-prescription painkiller also has a lot of side effects. Well, yeah. Yeah. Terrible ones.
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The problem is that if you don't know what you feel, you you don't know what your story is, right?
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And I think that our stories are are this way of making sense of our lives.
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And so, what happens is I as a therapist see people come in and they tell me their story.
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And the the thing is their story, there's so many problems with the story.
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They're They're We're all unreliable narrators, right?
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We're telling a story in a particular way.
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But I think if we don't know what we feel, we only see a very narrow part of the story and it limits us. Yeah, so true. So true.
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And And I feel half the challenge is also that we've just become so disconnected with knowing how we feel about anything.
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So, I mean, one of the things that really helps me is I'm always thinking like after eating a meal, Mhm.
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I know whether I like that cuisine or not.
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Like it's very clear to me.
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After I watch a movie, I know whether I like the movie or not.
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So, I often try and apply that same sense check with myself after I meet a person, after I go to a place, after I interact with an energy. Is that a good habit?
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Is that a habit that you recommend?
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Is that What are the easiest ways to getting closer to our feelings and actually understand how we feel about something or someone?
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Well, I think the first thing is to is to notice when you get afraid of a feeling.
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I think it's almost like our fear of our feelings is scarier than the feelings themselves. Mhm.
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So, um you know, what happened is somebody might feel something that they feel like somebody else might not like.
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Um and so, they say, "Oh, I'm going to adjust my feeling to please others, to make sure that it's how I'm supposed to feel about this."
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And then they lose their sense of of their place of knowing.
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We all have a place of knowing inside of us.
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And we sometimes it's almost like we get lost and we can't find it because we're so concerned about how people are going to feel about the way we feel. Mhm. Absolutely. Yeah.
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And And And I find like a big part of that is also a survival mechanism, right?
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Like it's a feeling of like community or feeling of tribe where we want to feel almost artificial connection because that feels safer than feeling uncertain disconnection. Right.
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It's It's for survival we have to connect. We have to belong. You can't be alone.
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You will You will get eaten by, you know, wherever you are.
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So, you have to have the tribe around you.
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But, the problem is that it's not an authentic way of having the tribe around you when you're pretending to be something that you're not.
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So, so many people in therapy for instance, they they they come in and they have a mask on.
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Um and they're so afraid of, you know, they want to entertain me.
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They want to be liked by me.
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They're afraid that they're boring.
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And I always say that if you show me the truth of who you are, I will be fascinated by you.
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Um no matter what that truth is.
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But, if you're like, "Look over here. Look over here. Look over here."
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I'm going to be so bored.
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I'm sitting there going, "What is this person trying to tell me?
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What is the significance of what they're saying?"
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And they're what they're really doing is trying to keep me out. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah, and it's almost like being like a magician who's is scared away of giving their tricks and you're trying to keep everyone entertained, but then you never see that person beyond that mask. Right. Right.
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tell tell me about a time when you've given someone some advice where you actually realized that you didn't feel it was the best advice.
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Like how does a therapist process that?
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Because I feel like in any profession, whether I'm I'm a coach and you know, you're a therapist, like when you're giving advice, it's almost like there are times when you're so certain about a belief, you're so certain about value, and then I've looked back at stuff I've said and just been like, "I was so wrong." Have you ever felt that?
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How do you reconcile that for you and the person you've been working with?
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I think it's really important for me to remember that I might know what I would do in a certain situation, but that might not be the best choice for them because I'm not living their life.
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So, I have this word taped up in my office.
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It's ultracrepidarianism.
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And it means the habit of giving advice or opinions outside of one's knowledge or competence. I love it.
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And and and I think that that applies to our friendships and our romantic relationship, everything.
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Because you can't know what another person should do.
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You can help them come to a place of knowing for themselves what they should do.
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So, I'm always working to help people to figure out to get to that place of what should I do and not ask the outside world.
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And not, you know, we crowdsource on the internet.
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We do that like we ask the internet.
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People will type in these questions like, you know, "Husband is cheating. What should I do?"
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And they crowdsource that.
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And it will be different for each person.
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Yeah, I always feel that we have this extreme of like when we're going through something we'd ask everyone Yes. every opinion. Yes.
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Or we do the opposite where we ask no one for nothing.
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Like you don't even ask the experts or a therapist or someone who can actually help you get closer to the answer.
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And and the reason we don't ask is because of shame. Mhm.
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I think so many times we keep these secrets from ourselves, from other people because we feel we have so much shame around the fact that we're even struggling with something. Mhm.
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Um you know, so many people keep secrets from me as a therapist.
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And uh Carl Jung called secrets psychic poison.
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And I think that's what they are.
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It's like when we keep something and there's a difference between, of course, privacy, which we all need to have, and secrecy. Secrecy is about shame.
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Privacy is like a healthy boundary. Wow, that's fascinating. Yeah.
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Secrecy is I can't tell this to anybody.
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I get this I get this so much.
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I see a difference too between the way men and women keep things to themselves, right?
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So, so many men will come in and they'll say, "I've never told anyone this before."
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And then what they tell me feels like, really? That? That is your big secret?
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And I feel so much compassion for them because I feel like it's so sad that in our culture we tell men, "You cannot be vulnerable.
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You cannot share this Um because you will appear weak or you know, whatever it is. It's not okay.
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Women will also come in and they'll say I've never told anyone this before, but then they'll say except for my mother, my sister and my best friend.
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So they're told maybe one to three people, but for them it feels like it's a secret and they haven't told anyone.
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So I feel like you know, what is the shame about?
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Why is it so hard when the reality is that we're all going through similar things and we if we don't talk about it, we don't know that. Absolutely.
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Yeah, and and I think that's the saddest thing about all of that is we feel like everyone's got it figured out apart from us, right?
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It's It's not only that we feel shame.
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It's like we feel like yeah, like oh, she's got it all figured out.
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He's got it figured out and that person in my company has got it figured whatever it is, but I'm the only one. Right.
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And then what happens is we have this voice in our head that is so self-critical, so unkind because we don't get the feedback of oh, this is normal and everybody's going through it.
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And so we walk around I had this this one therapy patient write down everything that she said to herself over the course of a few days and come back and read it to me.
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And she comes back and she has this sheet of paper and she says, I can't read this. I'm such a bully.
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And they were things like, you know, are you going to eat that with those thighs or you made a mistake, you're so stupid.
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Or you know, oh, look at all those couples. I'll never find anyone. Yeah.
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And we don't realize that that that's what's playing in our heads because we don't reality check with other people that they're also struggling with some of the same things. Yeah.
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And the thing is self-flagellation never enhances our growth.
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So people think I'm going to be tough on myself and I'm going to hold myself accountable and then I'm going to grow and change. Uh-uh.
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Self-compassion is how you grow and change and that doesn't mean not holding yourself responsible for things.
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What it means is that you can be uh accountable and you can also be compassionate and that combination is going to help you grow and change. Yeah, absolutely.
13:29
And by the way, if anyone I'm just going to throw out there if me or Lori look like we're sweating, it's because we are sitting in a sauna.
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Like we are in a sauna right now. With no AC.
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With no AC just for the benefit of this audio for each and every single one of you.
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So in case you see us sweat, it is the the depth of the conversation, yes, but it is also the fact that it is a sauna.
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And it's only going to get worse. There will be water. Just fair warning.
13:55
But Lori, tell me about what first took you into wanting to be a therapist because I feel like today therapy is and and I mean of course I'm only looking at it in the generation that I'm in, but I'm seeing therapy being a very growing need in the world.
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I'm seeing it as an industry that I believe we need more qualified people to serve people and and to help people and support people.
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We're seeing the rise of mental health.
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When you decided to be a therapist, what was your calling to that and where did you see its role at that time versus how you've seen it evolve?
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So it's interesting because I came to the therapy profession very late in life.
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Um I never imagined that I would be a therapist.
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Um I started off when I graduated from college, I was working doing film development and then I moved over to NBC and I was doing um primetime series development and this was a long time ago.
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This was this was the year that ER and Friends premiered.
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So this is you know, 1994. Yeah, great shows. Um great shows.
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Um but when I was working on ER, it was interesting because I loved what I loved about working in TV and film too was telling these rich human stories.
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Um and I felt like ER did that so well.
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I mean nobody goes into an emergency room because they they expected something to happen, right?
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So So it's these inflection points in life.
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Um and we had a consultant on the show who was a real ER doctor and I spent some time in the ER with him, and he kept saying to me, "I think you like it better here than you like your day job."
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And he said, "You should go to medical school."
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And I said, "Well, I'm not I'm not doing that. I was a French major. I'm not doing that."
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Um but, I went to medical school.
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And I I I felt like in medical school you saw the real stories.
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So, it wasn't the fictionalized versions of them. It was It was real life.
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And when I got there, it was like I went I was up to at Stanford, and it was like the the dot-com boom, the first one before the bust.
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And everybody was saying, "Oh, you know, there's this new thing called managed care, and you're not going to be able to spend time with your patients in the way that you want to."
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And I was really about you know, had this idea of being the family doctor who guides people through their lives, which of course leads to the therapy thing, but I didn't realize that at the time.
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Um and so, I I ultimately um I started writing when I was there, and I left to become a journalist, where I felt like I could really spend time with people, hear their stories, help them tell their stories.
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And then later, uh when I had a baby, um I was you know, it was one of those things where I felt like I needed more human contact during the day, adult contact during the day.
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And the UPS guy would come with all the deliveries, and and literally I would detain him and be like, you know, "Hey, how about those diapers?"
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And he would back away to his big brown truck, and I thought, "Something is wrong here."
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He would At a certain point he would like tiptoe to the door, gently put the package down so I could not engage him in conversation. Talking to strangers. And right.
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And so, I called up the dean at Stanford, and I said, "Listen, maybe I should come back and do psychiatry."
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And she said, "If you do psychiatry, you'll probably be prescribing Celexa in 15-minute intervals.
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I know what you wanted to do.
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Why don't you get a graduate degree in clinical psychology and do the work, the deep work that you want to do?"
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And that's exactly what I did.
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So, I feel like I went from telling people stories to helping people change their stories in the therapy room.
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I feel like my writing background is so useful because I'm almost like an editor in the therapy room where people come in with these faulty narratives and I help them to rewrite them.
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One of the things I think people feel when they come to therapy is um you know, I really want to understand who I am.
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And I feel like part of knowing who you are, part of getting to know yourself is getting to unknow yourself.
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It's to let go of those limiting stories that you've been telling yourself over and over um so that you can live your life and not that faulty narrative that you've been telling yourself about your life.
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And that opens you up to so many more possibilities.
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So sometimes what we think we know about ourself isn't really accurate.
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And that's the editing that we do in the therapy room. Yeah, absolutely. You're so right.
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We need to unknow and unlearn Yes.
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so much more than we feel we need to learn about ourselves and know about ourselves. It's the uncovering.
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Uh in in my book I talk about the analogy that's given in in the spiritual text of a dusty mirror.
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So it's like if you look into a mirror and you look into it and you ask what am I looking at?
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It's like all you see is dust.
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And that's kind of like our experience of who we are.
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Whereas when you start wiping away the dust, it can actually be a painful process in the beginning because the dust comes in your face and you cough a little bit and it gets in your eyes.
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But then slowly you can see yourself.
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So it's that cleansing away of all the layers of dust that we've accumulated almost. Right.
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And when you say it's hard, it is hard.
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And I think sometimes people imagine that they're going to come to therapy and they're going to download the problem of the week and then they're going to leave and they don't have to do any work. Yeah, yeah.
18:45
Um you know, and and you actually do have to do some work.
18:47
And that's why I talk in the book about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion. love that. Yeah, tell us about it.
18:53
So idiot compassion is what our friends do.
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It's like, you know, someone breaks up with you and you're like, "Oh, he was a jerk."
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Even though we know that like this has happened the last three times because there's certain ways you behave in the relationship that lead to this outcome.
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Or, you know, you didn't get the promotion you wanted and we know why that happened because it keeps happening to you and we say, "Oh, your boss is doesn't see your talent."
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when we really know what's going on.
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But we don't want to rock the boat and we think we're being supportive, but it's not really supportive.
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And so, you know, it's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, it might be you.
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But we don't we don't say that.
19:26
That's idiot compassion, right?
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Wise compassion is holding up that mirror, but the clear mirror, not the dusty mirror.
19:31
And it's holding up that mirror and saying, "I'm going to help you to look at yourself in a way that maybe you haven't been willing or able to see."
19:39
And I think you're going to like what you see because it's going to help you navigate through the world in a much smoother way. Yeah.
19:47
And maybe you will have to make some changes, which people you know, people usually come into therapy and they're like, "I want things to change."
19:53
And what they want to change is someone else or something else.
19:55
They don't realize that they are going to have to make some changes. Yeah.
19:59
And I and I want to say like you're the protagonist in the story.
20:01
You're going to have to make some changes. Yeah, absolutely.
20:04
And one of the things I think we struggle with that is I was talking about this with a friend the other day.
20:08
We're on a walk and we're saying she was being really vulnerable and open. She's amazing.
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I know she listens to the podcast. You know who you are. It's I won't say names.
20:15
But it's it's the feeling of we want people to be honest with us, but we struggle to be honest with people. Yeah.
20:23
So, it's a weird like it's a weird circle because we it's like me saying, "Lori, I want you to be really honest with me about how this podcast is going."
20:32
But then when my friend asked me how their podcast is going, I'm not telling them the truth. Yeah.
20:37
expecting you to tell me the truth. Yeah.
20:39
So, we almost become demanders of the truth, but not givers of, and then that continues that circle if that makes sense.
20:44
And so, how how do we actually open ourselves up to create space for friendships like that?
20:50
Because I almost think in the same way as you're saying, we're creating those scenarios in our life again at work or in relationships, Yeah.
20:57
we are inviting idiot compassion into our life. That's right.
21:01
Because we're not ready for it almost, right?
21:02
Right, we have to be able to hear it.
21:02
I see this so much with couples that I see.
21:06
So, a lot of times, um you know, somebody will say and I see this most typically in like a heterosexual couple where uh the woman says to the man, "I want you to be really vulnerable with me.
21:15
I want to understand your inner life.
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Want you to open up to me."
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And then he does and he starts crying and she is frozen.
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You know, she's like, "Well, well, I you know, be careful what you wish for, right?
21:26
I I I didn't I didn't mean like that." Right?
21:30
Or if someone's like or if the thing that they're being truthful about is something about something going on between the two of you.
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And people are so afraid to share that.
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So, maybe they'll be open about something out there, but if it's like there's something I want to talk to you about us.
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And the person says, "Yeah, I want to hear.
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I want you to be really open and honest with me."
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Until you really say, "I notice this happens between us and here's something about you."
21:54
And the person's like, "Whoa, I didn't want to hear that." Right?
21:55
So, we're so uncomfortable with other people's truth.
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You don't have to agree with somebody else's feelings, but you have to know that their feelings are valid, which doesn't mean that you have the same feelings. There's a distinction.
22:10
It's almost like the difference between um when somebody really wants someone to forgive them.
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And I always say like there's a woman in the book, she wants her adult children to forgive her for what she had done.
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They're estranged from her.
22:22
They And I said, "You know what?
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You can't You're You're asking for something called forced forgiveness."
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That That people are not going to forgive you because it will make you feel better.
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And sometimes not forgiving is okay.
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It's okay if your children never forgive you.
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Maybe they will have compassion for you.
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Maybe they will see you as the mother that they want now even though you couldn't be that then.
22:43
Um we have to learn how to forgive ourselves.
22:49
But so many times if someone says, "I'm really upset about this."
22:51
We say we want to hear that.
22:54
But we don't know how to um how to let it in. How how be open to it.
23:00
Yeah, and how do you in the in the therapy room and in your life and when you're advising people, people live or sometimes we assume that people live very problem-driven lives.
23:13
So, when they come and see you, they feel they have to start with the problem. Yeah.
23:16
Or sometimes when you see a friend, you feel like you have to share something that's going wrong for there to be a conversation.
23:21
I feel like almost problems and wrongs have become better conversation starters or more I would say more comfortable conversation starters for people as opposed to something positive. Do you see that a lot?
23:31
Is that Well, you know what's so interesting.
23:32
I think that we have this weird dichotomy where on the internet, everybody's posting all the positive things.
23:40
Um in person, everybody's sharing all the negative things. Yeah.
23:43
Um and so there's not that balance.
23:47
I I I think that a lot of the time we're we're kind of uh using our friendships to kind of download our problems, but we're not actually listening.
23:54
When I was training, I was doing my internship, a clinical supervisor said, "You have two ears and one mouth.
24:01
There's a reason for that ratio."
24:04
I think we don't know how to listen.
24:07
And so sometimes uh we feel like when someone's telling us something that we need to problem-solve for them. Mhm.
24:10
Um we don't know just how to sit with them and not fix it for them.
24:14
And we don't realize too that sometimes we're helping them by helping them to hear themselves more clearly. Yes.
24:21
And if we talk for them, if we talk over them, they can't hear themselves.
24:26
We're talking over their internal voice.
24:31
That that that that last bit there at the end that you just mentioned is so powerful.
24:34
We're talking over their internal voice and actually simply listening to them allows them to hear themselves. Yes. And ah you're so right.
24:40
I I feel like my best conversations are definitely when I I can find the narrative just by being able to share and share and share because most of the time we share we we talk for 2 minutes and the person giving the answer talks for eight.
24:55
And it's almost like, you know, and now it's okay, now do I take that answer?
24:59
They don't quite understand me and then, right?
25:00
It just kind of gets lost. So, how do we shift?
25:02
Is talking about our problems useful? With who is it useful?
25:08
And and when is it useful?
25:09
Yeah, I think you have to choose your audience.
25:10
I think so many times people have had bad experiences.
25:13
Let's say that growing up they had bad experiences.
25:15
And so then they end up choosing someone who will disappoint them. And then they say, "See?
25:21
See what happens when I'm vulnerable?
25:23
See how that doesn't work?" Yeah.
25:25
Um and and what happens is they they don't realize that they're repeating this pattern.
25:28
One thing that therapy really does for people is it helps them to see you are making choices that are are repeating they're helping you to repeat a pattern that is making you unhappy.
25:40
That is keeping you stuck.
25:43
And and people don't realize that they're doing that.
25:44
Um there's a woman in the book who keeps hooking up with the wrong guys, right?
25:48
Um and including, by the way, one from the waiting room.
25:51
I don't mean in the waiting room, it's not that exciting.
25:55
But but she meets him in the waiting room.
25:56
And I know, because of her pattern, that you know, this is going to be a disaster.
25:59
And she keeps saying, "Oh, it's the guys. It's this person. It's that person."
26:02
And she doesn't realize that these people are so much like the people she grew up around.
26:08
Um and I don't mean that we're blaming people's parents, because I think that most parents did their absolute best.
26:13
You know, most parents really want to be a good parent.
26:18
But sometimes they didn't know how or they were very limited or there was some mental there was some mental health issues or whatever it might be.
26:22
And so they couldn't give their kids that that mirroring experience that you know, is something that they would want in an adult relationship.
26:31
And so with her, it takes her so long to realize that when she meets someone who is going to give her what she wants, she's like, "Oh, I'm not attracted. No chemistry." Right?
26:42
It's almost like like she doesn't know how to be around someone who will give her what she wants. Mhm.
26:49
And there's a there's a learning process around, "Well, wait a minute.
26:50
just because something feels familiar.
26:52
Um like the person who disappoints you doesn't mean it's right.
26:56
You know, that chemistry that she kept feeling was like oh you feel familiar, come closer. Yeah. It's like no.
27:02
The fact that you feel familiar should be a sign like let's try something different.
27:06
Let's go into this place of unfamiliarity and it will be uncomfortable because you don't know the customs in this country.
27:13
You haven't been to this country before.
27:15
You're going to have to use your guidebook and and learn your way around a little bit.
27:19
But why don't you see what it's like over in that country? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
27:23
What what is your take on the elusive chemistry?
27:27
When people talk about it when they're partnerships and you know, the way I've always understood it is I've always felt that when you look at chemistry and compatibility, chemistry is something that I can feel multiple times a day with different people. Yep.
27:39
I can feel it with the barista.
27:39
I can feel it with my personal trainer.
27:41
I can feel it with someone I'm just taking the train home with.
27:45
Like chemistry is something I can feel over and over again.
27:46
Compatibility is something I can't.
27:48
It's not as easily replaceable.
27:50
It took longer to build and it's something that I have with less people in the world in general.
27:56
Uh and and so for me I've I always look at chemistry as that elusive thing because I hear the same.
27:59
My friends will come back from dates and be like Jay like but there was no chemistry and I'm like okay well so so tell me about that and how you've tackled helping people understand chemistry and and filter it better. Yeah.
28:11
So this is I I'm I love that we're having this conversation because this is such an important part of relationship.
28:18
So many times people will say, you know, they went on a first date with somebody and they're like yeah, I know I had a really good time but there was no chemistry.
28:25
And I said well, the having the really good time might mean that there's potential for chemistry. Yes.
28:31
Um but what they do is because they're on the apps and they say oh well, there's like 10,000 other people that I can date um and they just keep recycling and recycling and recycling and they don't give something time or space to grow.
28:45
And chemistry sometimes happens right away and other times it takes time to grow.
28:49
So there are these surveys that were done where where men and women were were followed for 20 years from the moment that they went on a first date through marriages, divorces, you know, all these things.
29:00
And what happened was a lot of people have revised their stories depending on what happened later.
29:05
So the people who are happily married, let's say, a lot of them said, you know, "Well, tell us about the first date."
29:12
When they're telling it now, they say, "Oh, yeah, there was instant chemistry."
29:16
But what they reported at the time was, "Yeah, I don't know, maybe I'll go on a second date. I don't know. There's not a lot here."
29:21
But it built and so their story became there was instant chemistry. Yeah. Right?
29:26
Now, the people who were divorced, sometimes they would say, "Oh, I knew I never liked the person from the beginning."
29:31
And yet at the time they reported, "Oh my god, we had this amazing chemistry." Right?
29:33
So it's not very reliable that first time is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Um it takes time.
29:38
So you you go on a first date or a first meeting with somebody and and you say, "Did you Did you have a good time?
29:44
Would you like to spend another hour with this person?" Mhm.
29:47
And then see whether something develops. Sometimes it does.
29:49
A lot of the times it does.
29:51
A lot of the time it doesn't, but you won't know until you give it some breathing room.
29:55
I should say too that, you know, there's a saying that we marry our unfinished business. Mhm.
30:01
And what I mean by that is that a lot of times if you haven't worked through some of these um ways of being in relationship that didn't work very well for you, you seek them out in other people without realizing it.
30:13
So the person will look very different, let's say, from your mom or your dad or whomever, and yet um once you get to know that person, you're like, "Oh god."
30:22
You know, like, "Oh, wait.
30:25
This this feels really like oh, I recognize that.
30:27
I didn't see that at all." Right?
30:29
So that's our unfinished business.
30:31
So you really got to work through your stuff so that you can meet the person that you're going to have true authentic chemistry with and not this kind of like chaotic chemistry with.
30:42
Yeah, chaotic chemistry is a really nice way to put it because yeah, that's often what it is.
30:47
It's like everything's chaotic, but we feel chemistry.
30:49
It's you know, it's like people will say I have so much chemistry with this person even though I can't rely on this person or I'm always nervous. I'm always on edge.
30:56
I never know where I stand with this person, but we have so much chemistry. Yeah.
31:02
Yeah, and it's just and it's crazy how I I'd love to date back actually and I'm I'm doing some research on it right now.
31:08
I'd love to hear if you already know what some but I'm I'm really interested in where that desire for chemistry ever even sourced.
31:14
Like where it started like that one that we all have for wanting to feel chemistry.
31:19
Like I wonder where it was a movie or because I remember the first time I wanted a girlfriend was because I watched a movie and my favorite character like was attracted to this girl and I was like, "Oh, maybe I should have a girlfriend."
31:29
Like I didn't you know, I was a kid and I didn't even know what that meant.
31:32
But it was just so cleverly planted into my mind that I didn't feel complete without a partner.
31:38
And and it's fascinating to me look at where these things started because sometimes they're just things that you've heard over and over again in movies or books or songs and Yeah, I mean I think that we we define chemistry as sort of like this instant magical thing.
31:51
Um and and chemistry is is so multi-factorial.
31:55
It's about, you know, what is this energy that goes on between the two of you and and how are you together in daily life?
32:01
Not like on the vacation in Tahiti, right?
32:05
Um so when people think about spending their lives with somebody, it's about the day-to-day.
32:10
It's about how do we get through the hard things?
32:12
How do we listen to each other?
32:13
How do we deal with um the places that we disagree?
32:19
How do we deal with the differences between us?
32:21
Cuz we think of chemistry is like that overlap.
32:23
Like we we both love sushi and rollerblading and this movie and that book and you know, and and we're vegan and you know, whatever it is, right?
32:31
Um and that's not chemistry.
32:34
Chemistry is how do we inhabit the same space knowing that we're two separate human beings and how do we stay connected even with the space between us? Mhm. Yeah, absolutely. I love that.
32:46
That's yeah, that's really powerful.
32:48
Tell me about the uh Tell me about dealing with the paradox of being perceived as someone who has all the answers but also is knowingly trying to grow in their own life.
33:00
Like how how does that paradox work for you? Yeah.
33:01
When it's like, you know, the perception not only of your clients now like, you know, you're going to have a TV show about the book.
33:06
Like the book's been so incredibly successful which is helping so many people.
33:10
How do you deal with that personally of that feeling of yeah, I do have answers and I do not have to help people.
33:17
Obviously, people are being helped.
33:18
Like you're changing people's lives and at the same time you're like, yeah, but I'm still learning and I still got to work on this and I'm still working on this.
33:24
How do How do you deal with that paradox? Or How do you Yeah.
33:26
Well, well, that's interesting because so in the book I follow four very different patients where I'm their therapist and then the fifth patient in the book is me. Yeah.
33:37
As I go through my own therapy with my therapist and a lot of people say, well, why, you know, are you insane?
33:42
You know, why why would you do that?
33:44
Uh before before the book came out.
33:46
I think it's really smart.
33:46
And it was Well, the reason I did it is because I really felt like if my patients were going to be so vulnerable, I felt it would be disingenuous to be the expert up on high helping these people when I was going through something in my own life. And and we all struggle.
33:59
And and so I say at the very beginning of the book that my greatest credential is that I'm a card-carrying member of the human race.
34:08
And it was so important for me to show how we're all more the same than we are different and I think that that makes what people can learn from the book so much more powerful and impactful.
34:19
Um what's interesting though is that even though I was very sure that I wanted to do that, once the book um so, you know, I I was supposed to be writing a different book.
34:28
I was supposed to be writing a book about happiness and and it it just felt so empty to me because I feel like happiness is a byproduct of living our lives in a in a fulfilling way and a meaningful way is really what we all hope for, but happiness is the goal in and of itself felt like a recipe for disaster.
34:44
So, it felt like it was just I was I was a therapist and I was trying to write this book about happiness and it was making me depressed.
34:49
Ironically, I called it the miserable depression-inducing happiness book.
34:53
And so, I ended up not writing that book and then I ended up writing this book and and I thought like maybe three people would read it cuz everybody said "Oh, you know, nobody wants to nobody wants to read a book about therapy."
35:02
And it's not it's a book about the human condition.
35:03
Um and so, once the book was turned in and and the sales team got it at the publisher and everybody started like passing the book around and and I thought, "Oh, no, maybe like cuz I thought like three people would read it."
35:15
Now I'm like, "Maybe 300 will read it. Maybe 3,000."
35:16
I didn't realize like we're like 10 months on the New York Times list now. And so, well, thank you.
35:21
I I say that only in the context of um if I had known how many people were going to be reading it, I think I would have hesitated to be so open. I let it rip.
35:31
I mean, I I do not come off well.
35:34
I mean, I'm very just here's what happened and I just let it go.
35:39
Um and so, I'm really glad that I didn't clean myself up because I think that if I had, people wouldn't have read it.
35:44
I think that the reason that people are responding to it and seeing themselves in these stories is because we're all so real in the book. Mhm.
35:52
You know, nobody's cleaned up in the book. Yeah, I agree.
35:55
I I and I think that's beautiful and I I I do think that that message is so much stronger today as well and I I'm really glad that you didn't know how successful the book was going to be.
36:07
It's great and it's funny though, isn't it that we we feel that sometimes like you would and and I'm glad you didn't I know you didn't too because you're you're very happy sharing, but it is weird that we think oh if that many more people are going to see this, I wouldn't. What is it about that?
36:22
Is that just more chances and odds of people having issues with us or challenging us.
36:27
Like, what is that that stops us from being more vulnerable the more people see us?
36:30
Because I feel when you're not well-known, it's like you strive to be well-known.
36:35
And then when you meet people who are well-known, they're almost striving for more privacy. Yeah.
36:41
You know, it's like, right?
36:41
I'm sure you see that in your work all the time. I do.
36:45
I think that people are afraid I mean, I think there's shame there.
36:47
You know, like that that that as a therapist, um you know, letting people see me struggle. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:54
And say, you know, here I I I mean, I do all the things with my therapist that my patients do with me.
36:59
So So you see me like I want to be liked by him.
37:02
And I Google stalk him one night.
37:03
And you know, I do all these things.
37:06
Um and it's embarrassing.
37:06
Um you know, to because you think, well, people will think less of me.
37:10
People will think that I'm less competent or um you know, whatever you imagine.
37:14
And that's not been the case at all. Yeah.
37:17
You know, I think that people have said, I you know, I I I really I really value what you shared. Um I really respect you. I admire you for that.
37:25
And And I think that that translates to people out in the world being more open with each other.
37:31
Because the title of the book, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, doesn't mean we should all go to therapy necessarily.
37:35
It means we all need to talk more to each other.
37:41
And so the more that I can model that for people, if I can't you know, walk the talk, if I can't do what I'm asking people to do, then there's a big gap. Yes.
37:52
But if I actually do it, I think it helps people to say, "Oh, well, if she can do it, then I can do it, too." Absolutely. Absolutely.
37:58
And what have you seen are those patterns of clients that you find that you're working with that have seen the biggest transformations in their life?
38:06
Are there patterns in those people that they have certain shared beliefs, values, work ethic, habits that that help them take whatever advice you gave or other therapists have given them that have actually changed?
38:19
Like, what has been that kind of X factor that people have shared?
38:24
Um think that what happens is they release the story that they came in with and and sometimes it's these stories of you know, there's the content of what they're saying like here's what's going on in my relationship.
38:35
Here's what's going on with my anxiety and they have a story about it.
38:39
So they think that the content is the story but what I'm listening for is sort of the music under the lyrics.
38:45
So the lyrics are you know, I'm having panic attacks.
38:50
The music is what is the underlying struggle or pattern that is getting you into the situation.
38:56
And once they can see that that can translate into everything that happens in their daily lives.
39:00
But I think it takes courage.
39:02
I think it takes so much courage for them to say I'm going to make changes.
39:06
I always like to say that insight is the booby prize of therapy that you can have all the insight in the world.
39:13
You can say now I understand why I'm struggling in this way.
39:15
Now I understand why I have these arguments with my partner.
39:19
And I'll say well did you do something different?
39:20
And they'll say well no but now I understand it.
39:22
Well you're not really doing the work because you have to do something different and I love this Victor Frankl quote that's in the book where he had written between stimulus and response there is a space.
39:36
In that space is the power to choose our response.
39:39
In our response it lies our growth and our freedom.
39:45
So yes there might be difficult people but then the question is what is our role in that?
39:50
So why are we in that relationship or what is our role in making that relationship so chaotic, so difficult, so there's so much tension in it. Why is that?
40:01
So what what is it that that we can do next time that person does that thing that triggers us?
40:06
Can we have a different response cuz the response we keep giving is yielding the same thing. Nothing's changing.
40:13
So when we talk about insight is the booby prize of therapy it's not just having the insight, it's you have to make changes and you have to look that means that you can make changes.
40:22
You're not going to change the other person, but your changes can influence another person.
40:25
So it's always like doing a dance, right?
40:29
And so if you change your dance steps, that person either has to change their dance steps too or they will fall flat on the floor or they can leave the dance floor. Yeah.
40:36
But the good thing is you changed your dance steps.
40:41
And that's the thing when you say what is the unifying thing that all of them have in common when they've made changes that have really, really transformed their lives.
40:49
It's about they they chose different dance steps.
40:52
different dance steps. Yeah, that's great advice and I love that analogy of the dance steps and may it I can visualize it perfectly and it makes so much sense and I think one of the things that I hear in that regard that a lot of people I talk to and and I'm I'm getting to get you to give them
41:06
advice which is fantastic and they all listen to the podcast also is is the feeling of like I know what I need to do to change but I'm only going to do it for a few days and if that person doesn't change their dance steps back in line with me right now I cave or I let go and sometimes it's genuine and sometimes it's not genuine. Sometimes it's like well if
41:27
Sometimes it's like well if they don't change I'm not going to change but for a lot of friends it's like I'm going to change and I'm going to be the best husband in the world for 3 months but if you know, but she never changes.
41:39
Okay, so here's the thing.
41:39
You're not changing for them, you're changing for you. 100%.
41:42
And so if you stop changing in positive ways for yourself, you're letting yourself down.
41:51
So you're not doing it to get a response from the other person.
41:52
If you get a different response from the other person, that's great. Amazing, yeah.
41:56
But you're doing it to get a different response from yourself.
41:59
You're doing it so that you are making choices that align with how you want to be in the world.
42:06
And when you make choices that align with how you want to be in the world, you will be putting a different energy out there that maybe somebody will that will influence somebody potentially, but it will certainly influence you and the choices that you make.
42:20
So, you don't make a change and it's not a contest, you know, it's not a contest of like if I change, you need to change or you need to change first.
42:28
I see this with couples a lot.
42:29
Like Like I'll only change when you change.
42:31
And it's a fight it's a it's a historical fight that they have with with from their childhood.
42:36
Like I'll only change mom and dad when you become the parent that I needed you to be back then. But you're an adult now.
42:43
It's like wearing clothes that no longer fit you. Totally.
42:46
Um and you're still like trying to get those clothes It's like take off those clothes.
42:50
You're free It's There's this analogy in the book that I love that my therapist used with me.
42:53
He said, "You remind me of a cartoon."
42:55
And it's of a prisoner shaking the bars desperately trying to get out, but on the right and the left the bars are open. No bars. Yeah. Right?
43:04
And I was like, "Whoa, I am my own jailer." Yeah.
43:09
We sometimes are our own jailers.
43:12
We think we're so trapped by everyone and everything else, but we are the ones who are keeping ourselves imprisoned.
43:16
I just did a TED Talk about this and it was it was about the idea that that we know on some level that the bars are open, but we don't want to step outside because if we step outside, we will have to change.
43:31
And when we change, that means we have to take responsibility for our lives.
43:35
And sometimes we would rather blame everything that's going wrong on somebody else. Yeah.
43:39
You know, if I take responsibility for my life, then I'm also responsible for what doesn't work.
43:44
I can't blame my bad mood, my bad day, my bad circumstance, my not taking risks on this other person.
43:51
I have to be accountable to myself for that.
43:55
And how about when people take that accountability, but instead of turning into action, they turn it into anger Mhm. on themselves? Right.
44:03
feel that's half of what scares people.
44:05
Like it's easier to blame everyone else and everything else going wrong because then I at least don't hate myself. Yeah.
44:12
But it's like when you take it inward it And sometimes that can launch you into action.
44:15
Like I I was literally sharing that with a friend yesterday.
44:17
I was sharing that there was a time in my life where I could have sat around and blamed the people around me, or I knew that I had to be accountable and take action in my life and own it.
44:25
And I was like, this is my life.
44:26
If I'm going to blame them, I'm going to be sad.
44:28
So it shifted me into action, but we find also that it can shift people into anger.
44:34
How How do you stop someone from from getting into that space where now they see all is their fault and now it's like they're just a bad person and it starts becoming very negative for their self-talk.
44:45
Well, I would say two things.
44:45
One is that we really talk a lot about self-compassion because self-compassion um helps you see how complicated human beings are.
44:56
It helps you see that I am Yes, I'm these things and I'm also these things and both can coexist.
45:00
Um I'm growing here and I'm learning here and I made this regrettable choice here, but I'm going to learn from it.
45:09
And and self-compassion breeds compassion for others.
45:12
So then we're more compassionate out in the world cuz we see the complexities of other people, too. Absolutely.
45:17
So I think that that when we can instead of turning that, you know, the responsibility into anger, you can say, I'm going to be really kind to myself because no growth can happen without compassion and no growth can happen without vulnerability.
45:30
And you can't truly be vulnerable if you're not going to be compassionate cuz you'll you'll have too much of that anger Yeah. coloring it.
45:36
Um so I think that that's part of it.
45:39
And I think the other thing, too, is to remember that um punishing yourself with anger is uh is going to distract you from something that we all have to face.
45:51
And this is going to sound like a non sequitur, but it's not, which is that we're all going to die. Mhm. Okay?
45:55
Life has a 100% mortality rate and that's not just for other people.
45:59
And so I think that sometimes we spend so much time in the anger because we don't want to think about I really do have a limited time here and we get so scared.
46:08
We say, "Oh my god, what am I going to do?
46:10
I have to make my life worthwhile and I have to do all these things that I want to do."
46:13
And we get so scared of not being able to accomplish those things that we'd rather sit in the anger so we don't have to think about it. Mhm. Absolutely.
46:23
Um so, I really want people to be aware of There's a saying that I love which is time is the coin of life. Spend it well. Mhm.
46:30
You're not spending it well when you're angry either at yourself or at other people.
46:37
You know, anger is There's a thing called the anger iceberg, right?
46:38
And so, it's like this you can imagine this image of like the iceberg and here's sort of the the waterline, right?
46:43
And so, anger is on top but underneath are more vulnerable feelings. Right.
46:48
Sadness, anxiety, um regret, you know, whatever it might be. Anger's just a disguise.
46:55
It's It's just the front-facing experience of the emotion. Yeah.
47:00
We're so afraid of of all of our emotions, even the good ones. We're afraid of joy.
47:04
There's a There's a word cherophobia, which is it's an actual thing.
47:07
It's It's fear of of joy.
47:07
And there are people who maybe when they were growing up, uh whenever they felt like good for a moment, the other shoe would drop.
47:16
You know, something bad would happen.
47:17
And so, they got very uncomfortable because joy for them was almost like anticipatory pain. Like it won't last. Yeah.
47:27
rather never experience joy than to know that it's going to go away. That was their mindset.
47:30
It's too painful when I get my hopes up and I think everything's going to be okay and then boom, it goes away, right?
47:37
And so, there are a lot of people who they put all these obstacles in the way of their joy so that they don't have to feel joy because joy is too painful for them. Yes, absolutely. It's so true.
47:48
And it's like while you're in joy, you're only thinking about when is this going to end?
47:52
And when you're in pain, you think about when is this going to end?
47:54
And that mindset continues.
47:55
And that same mindset applies to both, right?
47:58
In joy, you think when is this going to end and then in pain, when is this going to end? Right.
48:02
And people are afraid of of their pain, too.
48:04
And And I think there's a difference between pain and suffering.
48:09
So So pain is we all feel pain because if you're human, you're going to experience pain.
48:12
But suffering is the ways that we exacerbate the pain. Yeah. Right.
48:18
So suffering is I'm going to Google stock my boyfriend or I'm going to ruminate on this mistake that I made and make myself feel really bad about this thing that happened.
48:26
Um you know, that's suffering.
48:28
So So we we don't cause our own pain, but we do cause our own suffering.
48:33
Yeah, I think it's fascinating how we create suffering. Right? We create the suffering.
48:39
The What's that statement about how pain is guaranteed, but suffering is optional. Right. something like that.
48:48
It's like that's the choice that we get to make and one of one of the things I really want to dive into that with you is uh loss, which we just mentioned about in the break quickly there, and and grief that people experience.
48:59
And I know for long parts of my life I personally really struggled with knowing how to deal with people who'd lost someone.
49:08
For a long for a great amount I think I'm a lot better now, but it was something I generally had to work on.
49:14
And it's funny because I feel like you're just expected to know how to deal with this stuff. Right?
49:19
Like there's no Like you're expected to know how to deal with grief.
49:22
You're expected to know how to deal with breakups.
49:23
And not just for yourself, but for other people in your life. Yes.
49:28
And in this chapter you have a chapter where you're talking about John, the the character. Yeah.
49:32
Tell us about that experience of dealing with grief and and how to support someone you love Yeah. through grief. Yeah.
49:39
So I you know, I think there's a lot of loss in our lives in general, but we don't we we minimize the loss.
49:46
So there are the kind of these silent losses.
49:48
Just before I get into John, there's this idea about, you know, it was a breakup, but not a divorce.
49:53
Within 3 weeks you'll be over it.
49:53
You know, and it's kind of like and so we and so we we don't know how to support our friends if they're really experiencing the grief of the end of a relationship that where it wasn't as tangible because, you know, it's not a divorce, for example.
50:07
Or, you know, we see that with, you know, somebody had a miscarriage but they didn't lose their 8-year-old child.
50:12
And then people don't talk about the miscarriage and they're so alone in the experience. Yeah.
50:18
Um because these are these silent losses because people feel like, well, I can't really, you know, it's even just being single, okay?
50:25
So, a lot of times people will talk about ambiguous grief.
50:30
Ambiguous grief is the grief of being single because you don't know when and if you're going to meet someone.
50:36
So, you're always dealing with the loss of not having a partner and it never ends.
50:43
Um in the sense of you can't say, "Okay, that person's dead now."
50:45
Not that person Not that that ends. Let me be clear.
50:49
What I mean by that is when somebody dies, you are going through that experience of what it what they meant to you in their life and they live on with you in a certain way and you loved that person.
51:00
Um here you haven't met that person yet.
51:02
You don't even know who the person is.
51:03
So, you're you're grieving for the person you have not yet met.
51:08
And people don't understand the grief of somebody who really wants to be with somebody.
51:13
Um you know, and people will make all kinds of comments.
51:15
Oh, well, you know, you'll meet someone or, you know, like, "Oh, you have such a great life."
51:19
And and they don't want to acknowledge that Yes, that might be true.
51:23
Yes, and Yes, and this other thing exists, this ambiguous grief of will I ever meet this person? Where is that person?
51:30
I'm longing for this person that I don't even know what that person looks like or what their name is. Yeah. Right?
51:35
Um so, I think that we need to learn how to deal with loss and how to support people in loss.
51:40
Um in the book we have loss in in the sense of um you know, even just losing the hope for a better childhood, right?
51:50
So, Charlotte, the woman who keeps hooking up with the wrong guys, what helps her move forward is that in order to um in order to move into adulthood, she has to let go of the hope for having had a better childhood. Yeah.
52:07
Um if you let go of that, you can move into adulthood and hold that grief.
52:09
And and and that's when things open up for you.
52:13
So, there's all kinds of grief that every single person experiences.
52:15
Um in the book, we have, you know, loss of a child.
52:19
We have loss of This young woman goes on her honeymoon and she's in her 30s and she comes back and she has cancer and and eventually it turns out to be terminal cancer.
52:27
And how do you deal with You have 1 year's They say you have like a year to 10 years to live, right?
52:33
And so, people would say all these things like, "Have you gotten a second opinion?"
52:35
You know, like they don't they don't know how to sit with her in the reality of her diagnosis.
52:42
Um you know, they'll say things like, "Well, my cousin took vitamin this and it work you know, as opposed to just this sucks." Or "I love you so much."
52:50
So, there's a there's a chapter in the book called what not to say to a dying person because she wanted to write a book about all the things that well-meaning people who loved her said.
52:59
But they're so uncomfortable with talking about the truth of the loss. Yeah. Right?
53:03
So, if somebody is experiencing a loss, I hope that we can talk about the truth of the loss with them and not try to distract them from that. Yeah.
53:12
Um because that's what's really going to help them. Yeah. I love that.
53:16
It's such That's the best advice I've ever heard on loss, for sure, because yeah, everything's a distraction.
53:22
We're always trying to distract people from their pain. And it's our discomfort.
53:28
Yeah, it's our discomfort reflected on Right. Right.
53:29
We say, "Oh, I don't want to make them uncomfortable."
53:31
You're actually making them uncomfortable by not speaking about what's there in plain sight. Yeah.
53:37
So, this thing is there in plain sight sitting between you and you're not talking about that and you're making them uncomfortable and they feel like then oh, I feel so unseen right now because you are trying to make yourself more comfortable in talking to me and I'm not in this equation at all and yet you're trying to comfort me. Absolutely.
53:55
Yeah, I I mean, I can definitely think of there are literally people's faces flashing in front of me right now that when you're saying that I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what they wanted to talk about.
54:04
That's exactly what Right.
54:05
what they wanted to do but either I was too scared to go there or if it was me, people were too scared to go there or whichever way it was and yeah, every you've got just going to say it's a little bit like apologies, you know, like who is the apology for? Right?
54:17
Are you apologizing because you really feel uh you regret that that happened and you feel sorry or are you apologizing cuz it will make the other person feel better?
54:26
And I think that the more that we can have an authentic dialogue um and go to the hard places um both people end up feeling seen and heard. Absolutely.
54:39
Yeah, and that's that's the hope that I'm hoping everyone who listens and watches this conversation is just and and reads the book 100% like I really hope everyone who's listening and watching today reads the book because I feel like it's it's exactly that.
54:54
It's these subtle insights, these these it's it's life's all lived in these moments, these transition moments, these pain moments, these tragedy but like these moments and and they define our relationships, they define how much we trust others, they define who we feel loved by and who feel close to and who we feel far from.
55:10
Like for example, when you when you when you just want to go to the park on a sunny day and someone doesn't want to go, you don't feel offended by that.
55:16
Like it doesn't affect your relationship but it's like when you're going through something really painful and someone doesn't know how to process that, that feels like it can make or break a relationship often and I see that with people deciding who they love by how they feel that person treats them when they're going through something difficult.
55:35
That's right and that's why that's why going back to what I said earlier about choose your audience that you know you want to make sure that the person that you're opening up to is the right person. Yeah, absolutely.
55:45
Two more questions before I ask you the final set of rounds.
55:49
So, two questions that I want to end on before we go into the rapid fire rounds are um how do we be a good friend to others?
55:57
I know it's a very open question, but I I want to leave it open so that you can answer it.
56:04
How is What is the best way to be a good friend for someone else?
56:08
And the second question, how do we allow our friends to be the best for us? Mhm.
56:13
Because I think that's the part that we don't hear often enough is how can we help other people help us better? Yes. Yes.
56:20
We can be a good friend to others by learning to speak their language.
56:24
So, I do that as a therapist all the time just because somebody this person comes in with something that's similar to what the other person came in with.
56:33
They're unique individuals and you have to learn to speak someone's language.
56:38
So often we try to take our language and push it onto them. Yeah. And it doesn't work. Totally. Right?
56:46
So, being a good friend means I'm I care enough about you to learn your language.
56:53
And how can we help someone be a good friend to us is to be open to the differences between us.
57:02
We need to let those differences be a part of our friendship to enhance our friendship.
57:08
Um I think so many people are so worried about uh you know bringing those differences into the friendship.
57:14
They think well there's going to be a rift here.
57:14
I believe this and you believe this and we have different ideas about this. That's okay. Absolutely.
57:20
That's amazing beautiful answers.
57:22
Thank you so much for for sharing those.
57:24
So, we have our fill in the blanks and rapid fire rounds.
57:26
These are fill in the blanks is a new segment that we've started this year since the one-year year of the podcast.
57:31
So, I share sentences and you fill in the blanks.
57:34
So, therapy doesn't mean Oh, no. Okay, wait a second. I know. You can think about it. Okay. Um an instant fix. Okay, good. Okay.
57:43
Humans are innately ridiculous. Okay.
57:46
Shame and guilt are toxic.
57:50
Change your narrat- Changing your narrative allows possibility.
57:55
Suppressing your feelings only makes you sick.
58:02
We suffer unnecessarily when we get scared.
58:08
Being vulnerable and transparent can transform us.
58:12
The only way to achieve true connection is by being courageous. Okay. Wonderful. Beautiful. That was great.
58:20
You were doing fantastic.
58:20
Okay, that was very good.
58:21
We often get people who want to go off on a tangent. You did not do that. I appreciate it.
58:25
It sticking sticking within the rules.
58:28
which is why I had to think about it.
58:29
Okay, so these are rapid fire now.
58:29
Final five, which is one word to one sentence maximum. Okay.
58:34
There are very few people that stick to it, but I I have deep respect for anyone who does.
58:39
If I wasn't sweating before, I'm sweating now. I know. Okay, fine. All right, here we go. Uh let's go.
58:45
I've got a selection here that I can't wait to choose.
58:47
So, what question do you wish people would ask you more often? How do you feel? Really? Interesting. How do you feel?
58:59
I'm going to start the trend.
59:01
Right now I feel I feel very joyful. You're very kind. I appreciate that. That's cool. That's interesting.
59:07
I'm going to go off on a tangent. Okay.
59:08
Cuz I I have so much to say about that actually. Yeah, let's go. Okay, so let's do it. Yeah.
59:11
I I felt we needed to too.
59:11
How I feel like people don't ask that.
59:15
Or when they do ask that, they're expecting you to say, "Okay, good, bad." Mm.
59:18
Like, you know, it's like we give such bad answers to that question.
59:25
Like When someone gives me an interesting answer to that question, I'm almost more alert. Yes. Does that make sense? Yes. Yes.
59:30
So, it's not So, it's it's I don't mean how do you feel like, "Oh, hey, how you doing?"
59:35
I mean, I actually want people to be curious.
59:39
Um and so, I think people are so curious about like what's going on?
59:41
How's that project going?
59:42
What's going on with the You know, it's sort of like all this like content-level things, right?
59:45
I want to get in the process with people in the right context. Yeah, of course.
59:50
So, you know, I I think that sometimes we forget to ask the people that we care about how they feel. I love that.
59:56
I think that's really cool.
59:57
Yeah, I misunderstood it when you said it the first time.
59:59
So, I'm glad we of like, you know, how was your How are you feeling? Mhm. Yeah.
1:00:04
And it's hard to ask that and answer that. Yeah.
1:00:07
Cuz when you ask that, you've got to be really ready to listen and receive. Yes.
1:00:10
And and the person who's going to answer is going to have to try to not give you the 2-minute answer, so.
1:00:16
Well, also a lot of times when people ask that, it's they they have an acceptable range of answers.
1:00:19
Um you know, you can feel the ways that are acceptable to me.
1:00:26
Um which is very different from, you know, they might throw you a curveball.
1:00:30
And those curveballs are where your relationship deepens. Yeah, absolutely.
1:00:34
All right, question number three.
1:00:34
When was the last time you felt heard and understood and not in a therapy session? Right here. Oh, thank you. It's very kind. All right. Uh question number four.
1:00:45
I'm I want to You're too good at this.
1:00:48
I need to try and find something that Not I mean, I want you to be good at it, but Okay, this one I really like.
1:00:54
If you could create a law that everyone would have to follow in the world, what would it be? Kindness.
1:00:58
And and what would that practice be?
1:01:00
Like if you had to simplify kindness into that one habit or one practice or one thing that everyone had to do every day as the law, what would it be?
1:01:06
Uh before you speak, ask yourself, how will this land on the other person? Mhm. It's a great rule.
1:01:15
Yeah, you would change everything. Yeah.
1:01:16
J- probably wouldn't say much. I think you would. You think you would? Interesting. would.
1:01:21
I think that we know how to be kind.
1:01:23
I think that, you know, all of these obstacles get in the way. Mhm.
1:01:26
But I think that when we take away, you know, all of the noise in our heads, and there's so much noise, uh we innately know how to be kind.
1:01:35
You know, is it is it kind, is it true, and is it helpful?
1:01:39
If it meets those three criteria, then go ahead and say it. Nice.
1:01:42
And once you practice that, you don't you don't need to premeditate so much.
1:01:46
You will you will organically start to just speak that way to other people. Yeah, absolutely.
1:01:52
In the In the Bhagavad Gita, the book from India, it's called um the four austerities of speech. So, it's is it true? Is it beneficial to all? Mhm. This is my favorite one.
1:02:03
Can it be said in a way that doesn't agitate the mind of others? Oh. Right?
1:02:07
Like Like, you know, it's like that that delivery point of like, how can you say it in a way that isn't going to agitate someone's mind?
1:02:11
And then the fourth one is is it based on spiritual text and foundational text?
1:02:15
Okay, fifth and final question for you.
1:02:18
What is the biggest lesson you've learned in the last 12 months? Mhm.
1:02:24
Um that people really want to be open.
1:02:28
And I I I think that I knew that as a therapist, but I didn't realize, you know, I thought, well, maybe in these little clusters of people who go to therapy, those are the people who want to be open.
1:02:39
Everybody wants to tell their story, and everybody has a story.
1:02:43
People think, oh, well, my story isn't that interesting, or my story is kind of boring. No.
1:02:47
People's stories are fascinating.
1:02:50
And I've gone all over the country in the last, what, since last April when the book came out, and I I people are telling their stories. Yeah.
1:02:59
And every single one is fascinating.
1:03:01
And And they are realizing that their story has value. Yeah.
1:03:05
And often those silent or unheard stories are the stories that are more interesting. Yes.
1:03:10
We were just talking about that now.
1:03:11
Like, I know people that are just in my vicinity that have fascinating lives and stories that may never become a movie or may never become a book, but they're just fascinating stories of resilience and human connection and breakthrough power and all the rest of it.
1:03:23
And so And I think we learn so much from other people's stories.
1:03:27
And that's why in the book so many people have said, "Oh, I I learned a lot about myself even though they're not in the book because it's so different."
1:03:35
If I say to you, Jay, if I say, you know, "You're like this or you do this."
1:03:38
You'd say, "Well, no, I'm not. I don't do that." Right? That's our response.
1:03:40
Um but if you see someone else do it, you can say, "Oh, I'm kind of like that." I do that sometimes. Totally.
1:03:46
Um it's it's very non-threatening to see yourself in other people's stories, which is why I think we all need to be sharing our stories more. Absolutely. I agree.
1:03:55
And thank you for encouraging people to do that. Lori, you're amazing.
1:03:58
Everyone, this is Lori Gottlieb.
1:03:58
Maybe you should talk to someone.
1:04:01
Go and grab a copy of the book.
1:04:04
I promise you it's a fun read, it's entertaining, and as you've seen, it's deeply insightful and empowering as well.
1:04:10
Please, please, please go and grab a copy.
1:04:12
Like I said, we will put the link uh to the Amazon order in the captions and the comments.
1:04:18
Uh Lori, this has been amazing.
1:04:18
Like Thank you so you has been phenomenal.
1:04:20
To sit with you in a sauna {slash} not sauna Yeah, I love that you're saying that.
1:04:26
We're we're we're both sweating, but I I just genuinely want to say, like, I I love what you're doing.
1:04:30
I love the way you're presenting it.
1:04:31
I think it's exactly the language and the storytelling that the world needs today.
1:04:37
And I'm so happy that it's had so much incredible success, and I'm so grateful to meet you today. Thank you so much.
1:04:42
grateful for our conversation. you.
1:04:44
I'm really excited for you all to read this.
1:04:45
Everyone, go and follow Lori uh across social media.
1:04:47
Where are the best places for people to find you?
1:04:49
They can find me on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb 1.
1:04:53
They can find me on Instagram at Lori Gottlieb {underscore} author.
1:04:55
They can find me on my website, lorrigottlieb. com.
1:05:00
Uh they can read my Dear Therapist column.
1:05:01
It comes out every Monday in The Atlantic. They can read the book. Yeah, perfect.
1:05:05
Go and follow her on all of the social media platforms.
1:05:07
Uh and I'll be tagging her in all of these posts.
1:05:09
If there's anything that said that really stood out to you, that really resonated, that really connected, please, please, please tag me and Lori on Instagram and share it so that I love seeing what connects with you.
1:05:21
Like it means a lot to me because it helps me ask better questions for you.
1:05:24
It helps me understand our guest better for you as well. So please do that.
1:05:26
Thank you for watching or listening. See you soon.
1:05:28
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1:05:33
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