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Michael Jamon writes Hollywood sitcoms for a living and he's been writing in Hollywood for 28 years.
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He's written for shows like King of the Hill and Beas and Buttad.
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But unlike most comedy writers, he's not he's not about the punchlines.
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He's much more about building rich characters, developing deep story lines, and then layering the comedy on top of that. But how do you do that?
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Well, that's what this episode's all about. Okay.
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So, what I really want to do here is talk about how to write funny.
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I've never had a conversation about this, and I've always been curious, and I guess I got to start with what is it that most people get wrong?
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A lot of times you'll see people's advertise, you know, I can teach you to be funny.
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I don't I don't think that's the case.
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I've said this like if you're here, I can help you become here, but I can't get you to here.
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And so, and it's okay if you're not like if you're not a naturally funny person, you can't there's no amount of books that you can read that's going to get you there.
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So, but there's little tricks and tips we picked up along the way from every from shows I've written on you.
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Okay, this this will help.
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Like strong attitudes are funny, right?
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So, uh you know my So, if I if you say um uh if I ask you how how is the soup and you go it's okay, that's not funny.
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But if you say this is the best [ __ ] soup I've ever had in my life or this is the worst this is the strong attitudes are funny.
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Yeah, it seems like that's one of the biggest things that you're trying to build in with characters.
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Like everybody needs a strong attitude in order for a character to come alive. Yeah.
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And that's why dumb characters are funny.
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That's just like, you know, being dumb is strong word.
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Uh, you know, pigheaded, ignorant, that's funny.
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Uh, you know, stubborn is funny.
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And how much of comedy is a kind of surrendering to your nature?
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Like this is Michael, this is my sense of humor, and I just need to surrender it versus like developing skills and stuff like that.
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So, in the beginning when I broke in, writers fell into two camps.
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You were like a joke person or a story person.
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Are you funny or are you the person who can figure out what the story is supposed to be?
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Yeah, I was kind of the joke person.
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My partner was the story person and to and the joke person is the one who gets all the credit.
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You're the one who hits the home run joke that makes everyone laugh that goes in the script that brings down the house.
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But the story person is far more important.
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If the story doesn't hold together, the all the jokes in the world won't make this funny.
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I don't care how good the jokes are.
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There's a line from my book where I talk about um uh how I'm judgmental. I'm very judgmental.
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That's a quality that I loathe in myself even though I'm so damn good at it.
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You'd think I'd be proud, right?
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And so when I'm really good at something, okay, how do I how do I come up with that joke?
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Well, I'm good at being judgmental.
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So, you're good at being proud at something. Yeah.
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The minute you start talking about writing jokes, nothing becomes funny. It's gossamer. It falls apart.
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Like if you have to when you explain how a joke works, it's no longer funny.
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And so one of the worst things you could do as a comedy writer is talk about comedy, you know, I always try to steer the subject to something else.
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Seinfeld talks about how he's kind of just always has to be a bit of uh I mean just a lot of comedians, you know, they're they're they're always like a little bit disappointed about the world or a little bit like Yeah.
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You know, there's like a dissatisfaction that kind of drives good comedy. Yes.
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And there's also judgmental like to be funny.
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You it helps to be really judgmental.
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It doesn't make you a good person. You understand?
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Like being judging being judgmental is an awful quality to have.
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And so I try to hide all that stuff.
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But all those strong attitudes being judgmental is a strong I have a strong opinion about everything you're doing, right? And so that's funny.
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It doesn't make for a good person.
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That's so funny because I knew that and it made this morning prepping for the podcast.
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I was just like, "Oh, what's going to be judging me for?" It's all fun, right?
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That's what you got to do it, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
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Now, how does character intersect with comedy?
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So, all good comedy comes from character as opposed to someone saying something silly or as opposed to like the joke.
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If a character is trying to be funny, that's not going to it's never funny. It's always cringey.
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If a character says something to try to make you laugh, it's like it's not funny.
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But if the character if it's coming from their ignorance or their stupidity or uh their naivee, whatever, then then they can you can you can have them say funny things.
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They're not trying to be funny, right?
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If a character's goal should never be to make the audience laugh, the character's goal should be to say something truthful about from their own from their own perspective. Okay.
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So, Archie Bunker was not trying to make anyone laugh, right?
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He was just trying he was just a bigot. Right. That's why it was funny. So, it's they're funny.
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They're not they're not trying to be funny is the big the big thing.
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Larry David, when Larry David from Curb, he's not trying to make you laugh.
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He's I'm just telling my my opinions. These are my thoughts.
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I'm just being truthful to you. Yeah. Right.
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He's not trying to make you laugh.
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No, he's just giving you his opinion, which he shouldn't be giving.
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He's he's literally verbalizing his very extreme thoughts, his very judgmental thoughts.
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You know, he has opinion on everything.
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He has an opinion on, you know, how much what kind of gift you should bring someone.
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He has an opinion on how much you should tip uh someone at a pickup count at a take take home counter.
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You don't take tip at anything, but they're not delivering, you know, you're you're picking it up at yourself.
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There's no you don't give a tip.
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You give a tip to a waiter, you know, and I don't know if that was ever in his show or not, but that sounds like something he would say.
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And then as you're thinking about characters, how deliberate are you in terms of setting up the strong attitudes of different characters?
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If we're writing an original pilot or something as opposed to a character in an episode that already exists, when we're writing original characters, we always think of them.
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We're we're attracted to characters who enter the room who who are the storm that enter the room.
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The person who enters the room who immediately changes the energy, who's the tornado who enters the room.
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There are people like that.
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You know, the minute they walk in, they can't keep their mouth shut and everyone the energy changes.
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And so we're always attracted to [ __ ] you know, [ __ ] Okay.
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So, the word that came to mind for me is loud, but that doesn't seem right.
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Yeah, but it's not just loud.
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It's also someone who cannot hold their opinion.
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Like, you cannot hold their tongue.
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I have to tell you, you're wrong. Right. That's a funny person.
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That's been the most surprising thing to me hearing from you is that the story is really the core thing and then the humor is layered on top of it. 100%.
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And so, over the years, I've turned into I think 50/50 story person, half half joke person.
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I I mean, you know, the funny thing about stand like the thing is, okay, take stand-ups.
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Standup comedy is great, but it's just jokes.
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It's just joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, and then you can laugh your ass off and then you go home.
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But if you ask someone after seeing a great comedian like, "Hey, what was your favorite joke?"
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Like, they will have a hard time remembering, you know, you don't really remember it.
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And so I think comedy hits you in the head and and drama hits you in the heart.
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And if you really want someone to feel something after after they watch or read your work or whatever, you have to hit them in the heart because comedy's is almost disposable.
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It's almost uh it's like empty calories.
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And so you really have to mix the two, drama and comedy.
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And that's where story comes in.
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The sitcom feels like some kind of a major innovation in terms of entertainment.
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And I don't have the words to describe it.
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So maybe you can kind of fill in the holes there.
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But it does feel like a kind of a unique 20th century invention. Yeah. And it to me it's sad.
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It saddens me that it's really dying out, you know, really.
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They're they're just not making they're not making multi- cameras anymore.
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Very few on these streamers.
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They're making less and less uh single camera sitcoms, which are good, but it's it's its own thing.
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M and and so talk about Cheers or Mary Tyler Moore, all these classic shows, there's a skill set that that you need to have to make these multi- camera shows.
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And and as because they're making less and less, it it'll go away.
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Um because you don't have the people, you know, my age doing anymore, you know, who I grew up in it.
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And when I watch a show like Friends or The Office, what percentage of that you think is scripted? So, okay.
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So, Friends is a good example. It's multi- camera.
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office is a single camera show.
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Okay, all of it is scripted. You may for both.
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There may be moments when if there's time you let the actors improv a little bit, a couple lines here and there, but it's not like you would just ever let the actors walk on set.
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Okay, just start talking, say funny things. Go, just go. You guys go.
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We'll just like that would be garbage. That'd be terrible.
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No one's going to want to watch that.
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And then the other thing that seems unique about the sitcom too is that you can kind of the characters can kind of never change or they can change and then that creates a different set of constraints. Yeah.
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So that's the thing that's why these shows have a lifespan.
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So you have a sitcom and the characters from the beginning of the episode to the end they're going to change a little bit just a little bit.
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They're going to be slight not not necessarily not going to learn a lesson but they're going to be slightly different or else a story is a journey.
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Why did you take the character on a journey if they're not going to be changed somehow in a small way?
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And when you do a sitcom, the character's changed, but by the end of but by the beginning of the next episode, they have amnesia.
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They they got to make the same mistake again.
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Well, that's what I love about Peter Griffin. Yeah.
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Like Peter Griffin, one of my favorite YouTube clips to watch is Peter Griffin like talking like a pompous rich guy for, you know, like 8 minutes or whatever.
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And it's like him in like three episodes where he's just like a ridiculous, you know, over-the-top smart Peter Griffin.
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But like we all know that Peter Griffin is normally an idiot. Yeah.
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And that's what I think is so funny that he kind of always comes back to being Peter Griffin, but then you can just like warp Peter Griffin however you want for one episode.
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And that's an extreme example because that show really is a cartoon.
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I mean it's very I mean someone he can get his head blown off in an episode and then he's back to normal.
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So, I mean, I guess like what I'm thinking about, maybe I'm completely wrong, like people just go out to dinner and something funny happens and like, man, we could kind of like recreate something like that and dramatize it for the TV show. Often that happens.
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Well, most writer rooms start the first half hour or even an hour, we're sitting around a table and we're just bullshitting. We're just chatting.
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And to someone else, it might look like we're just wasting time.
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And to some degree we are, but we're also waiting for someone to say something, tell a funny story about what happened over the weekend, an argument they had with their spouse or whatever, and then you go, "Okay, that we can put into a show."
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So, yeah, there's there's a lot of that goes on.
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I was on a show, we never did this.
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It was a show did I did a show called uh Tacoma FD and the the um I don't say, but but the the showrunner was also one of the actors and he would tell these stories.
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He goes, "I had a" He goes, "I had a sex dream about my best friend."
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Like, we we go, "Wait, what?"
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You know, it was his best friend for for years and years, another dude, another guy.
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And he's telling me about this sex dream.
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I mean, I go, "We have to put that in an episode.
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Like, we have to do that where it was a very vivid sex dream with his friend.
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I go, that's so so wonderful.
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We never w up doing it, but that's a story you could you could turn into an episode." Okay.
11:13
I want to get more into character.
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So when you said that you're very intentional about character and you're writing like how explicit are you with the characterser's personalities, their goals, their motivations, stuff like that.
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Often we have we have a character document that we'll fill out.
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We give a lot of thought.
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We want to know does this character even things that you wouldn't necessarily put into that won't even make it to the script, but you'll think about does this character smoke marijuana?
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What do they think what's their stance on legalized marijuana?
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So you're not just saying are they conservative or are they liberal.
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You want to know you're asking questions about them and the more contradictions you can dig up the better. Yeah.
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Because but the contradictions have to be consistent with the character can't unravel the character.
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So which is always the hardest one of the hardest things for me to do.
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How do I give them interesting contradictions that don't tear them apart but make them real feel real? Here's an example.
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Um, I post a lot on social media and so I get trolls and so during the writer strike I was talking about the writer strike and and some and some guy posted uh a meme from Goodfellows and then and it was Ray Leotaa laughing hysterically and the the the line underneath it said uh oh you think we care about Hollywood you're out of your mind.
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It was something about how the the point of this guy's meme was that he didn't care at all about Hollywood because it was during the writer strike.
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we don't give a [ __ ] about you.
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But he was using a meme from a classic movie to express how he felt.
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The guy was clearly a fan of Good Fellas and Hollywood and he's using this meme to tell me he doesn't care about Hollywood.
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That to me is a very consistent contradiction.
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It's like he doesn't see his blind spot.
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But you don't want to unravel it.
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You can't go too far because then you have a character that doesn't make any sense.
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But to me, that was just a a blind spot is the good way a good way to say it.
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The guy just had a blind spot. He hated us.
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He hated Hollywood, but he also loved us, you know. Yeah.
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One of the things that you said that I think is funny is no one likes No one likes an adorable main character. Yeah.
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And that goes back into adorable is a character who's trying to is look how cute I am.
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It's almost like it's it's it's adjacent to look how funny I am.
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Look how aren't I interesting. Aren't I cute? I'm I'm adorable.
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adorable. H it's just so you know when I'm writing stories it's never because I a lot of my book is personal essay so it's stories about me I'm the lead right I'm the lead of my own story and so it's never look how cute I am look how
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interesting I am it's always look how human I am and so I'm writing from my weaknesses I'm writing from my mistakes uh and apologies it's never look how cute I am I think it's so offputting and I see that a lot uh in the in the genre um of memoir. I see it. I'm like, "Ugh, I see it.
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I'm like, "Ugh, you're doing it wrong.
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You're trying to win me over.
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Don't try to win me over. Just be the truth. Just be truthful. Then I'll be one over."
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And it seems like because you're saying that because we have such a inclination towards pride and ego, we have to kind of fight that by focusing on our weaknesses and the human stuff. Yeah.
14:28
Well, all all good stories come from weaknesses.
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characters be being weak. The vulnerability.
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You don't write about a character's strengths.
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You write about their weaknesses.
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It's easy to forget that when you're writing about yourself.
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It's really easy to forget that.
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It's because you because you want people to like you.
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So, you're look how interesting I am.
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That's not what people respond to when they read.
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They want to read look how human you are.
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And that's how you win them over.
14:55
So as you were writing that more personal stuff, how how do you kind of mine your own life for those for those sort of weaknesses stories?
15:05
Cuz actually usually those are the things we kind of gloss over, right?
15:09
I keep two lists on my phone.
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I got a list of uh my weaknesses, all my we I just write them down, you know, literally I'm judgmental, I'm anxious, uh whatever. I write them down.
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And then I have another list of just memories that I want to write about. Interesting.
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And I usually just pair them up.
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Okay, so this memory this is this memory is really about being judgmental, you know.
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And then that that's how I'll write that story.
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I feel like the book is a collection of apologies and um and uh confessions and that's what people respond to.
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It's like and people have said to me because I I perform it as well.
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I perform it as a oneman show and I travel with that on the road.
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And afterwards when I first started doing this, people would come up to me and they'd say, "You're so brave to be saying this in front of a room full of strangers."
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And I thought it would be a lot braver for me to get up there, tell people I'm a writer, and give him a shitty show.
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Then people would say, "Oh, this guy thinks he's a writer."
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You know what I'm saying? That would be brave.
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me going up there and giving you and just opening my heart and telling how I feel and just being honest.
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I'm just do I'm I'm just doing I'm just uh verbalizing what what we're all feeling.
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I'm just the one saying it.
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So, I don't feel any word.
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I don't feel like I'm I'm being judged as a person.
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I feel like I I don't want to be judged as a writer. Yeah.
16:31
Because, you know, as I was as I was reading chapters of your book, one of the things I felt is like, "Oh, wow. He's also like that." Yeah.
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You know, like I kind of thought I was the only one.
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And I think sometimes you look at other people and you're like, man, they got it all together.
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And then you're like inside and you're like, you know, I'm I'm like this, I'm like this, and somebody else says something that's maybe not exactly what you're thinking, but it's like, wow, they're kind of confessing that.
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And somehow voicing it makes a little easier to work through that thing. But that's the thing.
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It's like I I say this, you know, I I was reluctant to write in this genre, memoir, because it feels very self-important.
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My memoir, you know, like look how interesting I'm like already. I don't even like that.
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And so when I'm writing that way, I'm always feeling like, well, the details are mine, but the stories are ours.
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You feel the same way I do.
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Sure, the the specifics are from my life, but you feel the same way. We all do.
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You know, one of the things you do is you take very, very specific moments from your life. Yeah.
17:30
And what are some of the ways that you thought about making it funny?
17:34
And maybe we can even start with as you looked at David Sedaris's work, what did you pick up on that he does so well?
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It's so interesting because that's I was I love his work.
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I was so when I first started this project, I was like I just want to do what he does. I love his writing.
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And so at the time I'd listen to a bunch of his audio books, but because I had a long commute and then I thought I I'm going to go buy his paperbacks and reading because it's a different experience. Yeah.
17:59
So, I bought all his books and I go and I'm I'm thinking, how hard is this going to be?
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Because I'm already a TV writer. I know how to write.
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This is this is going to be easy.
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So, I'm reading his first book and I'm halfway for through the first chapter.
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I'm like, where is he going with this?
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Like, I don't even know I don't even understand what he's doing.
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And I get to the end of that first story.
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And it was so beautifully written.
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It was so the payoff was so perfect.
18:20
I almost threw the book across the room.
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I was like, "This is going to be so much harder than I thought."
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And then I just started reading all of his work multiple like first just to enjoy it then two three four times to study it see what I can pick up and and then I started writing it myself and the the hard my own stories and the the problem with being a TV writer is that I'm a I'm a mimic.
18:45
My job is to pick up the voice of the characters of the show or the voice of the showrunner. It's never my voice.
18:52
It's about the voice of the characters.
18:53
This is how Hank Hill talks. Mhm. And so I'm a good mimic.
18:55
I'm, you know, and I can make, you know, dang it, Bobby.
18:58
Like when we're in the room, we literally do the line.
19:00
We talk like him, you know, to make sure it sounds right. Oh, absolutely. Do that again. Dang it, Bobby. Dang it, Bobby.
19:06
You know, or you know, Dad, that's Bobby Hill.
19:07
You know, so that's how you set up the That's often how you'll pitch a joke is in the character's voice to make sure it sounds right.
19:15
That's so obvious in retrospect, but that's very surprising.
19:17
And it's also funny to do that on a show where uh the the the star is in the room, the writer room.
19:24
So Mark Maron was one of the writers on Maron and I used to imitate him and he'd he sometimes he'd say, "That's not how I talk, Jim. I don't talk like that."
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I'm go, "You absolutely talk like that."
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And everyone's like, "Yep, you talk like that." And he's like, "Really?"
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You know, I go, "Yeah, you say the word engage.
19:40
If I got a nickel every time you said engage, you know, I do." Yeah.
19:42
And so there are times uh you you know you you imitate them and that's how you get that's how you get the character is that you make fun of them you know and so you're making fun of them through their face and they're okay with it because this is how you make a TV show. Wow. Yeah.
19:59
But so when I was doing this for my book I found my when I was writing the first couple stories I found that I was subconsciously imitating David Sedaris.
20:09
I found I was doing his voice.
20:12
I didn't realize it until I read the first stories fresh two weeks later or whatever.
20:16
And I'm like, this felt like it felt like I was just doing a cheap imitation of him.
20:20
It felt like this isn't him.
20:23
This is someone trying to be him. And I was like, oh no.
20:25
I really started a spiral.
20:28
I was like, what do I do now?
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And then I well I well I have to find my own voice.
20:32
And then I was like, yeah, but who am I to tell people that my voice is worth hearing? Who am I? I'm just a TV writer.
20:39
Like why would I'm not that like who really I I started spiraling.
20:44
And then I was also like but we know David Seders is the gold standard.
20:48
We know what he's doing works.
20:50
Who am I to tell them it should be any other way? Who like really?
20:52
And then I really had long conversations with people about art and what art is supposed to be and how to make art because as a TV writer I don't think any of us any of my colleagues think we're we make art. It's not what we do.
21:06
We don't even talk about like that. Wait, that's weird.
21:09
That's surprising because I would say that most people who watch it would say it's totally art, right?
21:13
I think maybe you could say it's craft.
21:15
I don't think you're going to watch a sitcom and say that's art.
21:18
You could maybe you'll say it's craft, but at the end of the day, what you know, we are just we are selling toilet paper.
21:23
You know, we have an act we have an act break. We have commercials.
21:26
Time to sell toilet paper, guys.
21:27
You know, that's how we that's how we look at it.
21:30
And pharmaceutical drugs, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Boner pills.
21:33
So, but we don't look at it like art.
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And so I I've never had that thought in my head where I was making art until I wanted to write this book and that was my aspiration.
21:41
Whether or not it succeeds is any you you get to decide but that was my aspiration. Okay.
21:48
So Picasso said when art critics get together they talk about form and structure and meaning.
21:53
When artists get together they talk about where you can buy cheap tarpentine.
21:57
And the point is that the people on the outside talk about all these like high flutin things but the people on the inside are just super practical. Yeah. Yeah.
22:05
Is that sort of what you're saying here?
22:06
Uh, is that what I'm saying?
22:08
But I agree with that thought for sure.
22:10
Like I remember when I was in high school, you'd read, you know, whatever, a book, a classic piece of literature, short story, whatever, and then the teacher would make you talk about theme and motifs.
22:22
And I remember thinking, this is [ __ ] There's no way the writer was giving any thought to the mo themes of the, you know, I just thought it was [ __ ] And then as I became a writer, I realized theme comes out naturally because you are talking about one you're examining the story.
22:37
This is a story about memory and memories being you're examining memories from all these different angles.
22:43
So naturally the themes of memories are going to appear because you're doing your job as a writer.
22:48
It's not like we go into it trying to write themes.
22:50
The themes are are the result of good writing.
22:52
It has to be there or else you're not writing well. Right.
22:56
So then on that note, when you're kind of sculpting a story, and I like that analogy because to sculpt is to carve, to cut, uh, when you're doing that, how much are you thinking about the main themes in that part of the story? It comes up.
23:09
So when you're doing an when you're writing a sitcom, this each episode is about, okay, this episode is about forgiveness.
23:15
This episode is about or judgment, this is this one's about love or whatever.
23:19
If you're doing it, my partner and I talk about this.
23:23
If you're writing it the right way, you'll find yourself using the same words over and over again.
23:29
Words, you're repeating words.
23:29
If it's about forgiveness, you're you're using the word forgive a lot or apology.
23:36
You're using the And so what happens is at the end of our first draft or whatever draft, you wind up going through and say, "Okay, it's almost like a drinking game.
23:43
We've said forgive too many times here.
23:45
We have to come up with synonyms synonyms or find other ways to say this without saying it. So it's not so obvious.
23:51
And so if you're doing it right, you're gonna you're doing you're going to repeat a lot of the words and you have to disguise it. And that's the theme. Yeah.
24:01
So then when do you have like a series of things that happened versus like a story, right? Good question.
24:06
So the problem I see with new writers often is they have [ __ ] happening.
24:11
So [ __ ] happening is not a story.
24:13
They have a lot of [ __ ] that's happening in this ep in this script or or story.
24:17
When your aunt says, "I oh my god, I have the funny story for you.
24:23
I was at the supermarket.
24:24
I wanted to buy bananas, but they didn't have any bananas. They were bruised.
24:27
I didn't wasn't wasn't so then I wanted I got oranges, but the oranges didn't they didn't look like they look like I'm like, "Shut up.
24:34
You're telling me [ __ ] that happens. Stop talking, right?
24:35
You're just giving me all this [ __ ] that's happening. That's not a story."
24:38
So, a lot of times writers get so they get so obsessed with plot, which is [ __ ] happening.
24:43
Plot is [ __ ] happening. What's a story?
24:45
A story is the emotional underpinning underneath it.
24:50
So the plot is what's the story about and the emotional underpinning is what's the story really about?
24:56
This story is about redemption. That deeper stuff. Yeah. You have to have it.
25:02
And often with new writers, you don't see that.
25:04
You just see the plot, which is [ __ ] happening. What are they missing?
25:09
The the emotional the emotional but but like why is that happening?
25:14
It's it's easy not to do that.
25:14
It's easy to go, "Oh, I got I got a great idea for a scene." And maybe you do.
25:19
Maybe you have a really funny exchange or a great visual scene.
25:23
You might, but that you can't just string it together.
25:25
You can't have a bunch of scenes that are visually interesting strung together and expect anyone to have sustain interest.
25:30
You have to have the deeper part or else it gets boring.
25:37
Sorry, what's your partner's name? His name is Severt. Sever. Sever.
25:38
Yeah, he's got a Norwegian name. Sever Glaram. What a cool name. Okay.
25:44
So, when you're working with sever, what do you do tactically to make sure that you have that deeper part of the story?
25:52
Well, that's that part comes out when we break a story.
25:54
So, when we're breaking the breaking a story is the is when we're in the writer room, we have a big whiteboard and we divide into act one, act two, act three.
26:01
We figure out what all the main points are.
26:04
What's the first act break?
26:04
What's the second act break? What's the top of three?
26:06
All these moments have to be figured out.
26:07
And as you're doing that, you're also figuring out the deeper meaning of the story.
26:11
So you don't go off writing until the story's broken and tie together breaking the story to the deeper meaning.
26:19
Well, that's when you're breaking the story, that's when you're also figuring out what it's really about on a deeper level.
26:24
So you're really asking that what is this about? Yeah. Yeah. What's it? Absolutely.
26:28
You're literally saying those words. What's this about?
26:30
And this is this is so obvious.
26:33
People miss this all the time.
26:35
So if you'll watch a great movie, let me give you examples.
26:37
So like Ferris Buer's Day Off. I love that movie. So good.
26:41
If I say, "What's that movie about?"
26:41
A lot of people would say, "Oh, this is about two friends playing hookie, then they go to the Chicago Gumps Cubs game, then they dance in a parade, they steal a car."
26:52
You know, a lot of [ __ ] happens in this movie.
26:54
I go, that's not what the movie is about, though.
26:56
This movie is about a best friend trying to save his other his friend's life.
27:01
It's about Ferris Beieler trying to save Cameron's life because he says it and this is not a mystery.
27:07
They say it in like the second scene of the movie.
27:09
Ferris turns to the camera and he says, he calls up his friend Cameron.
27:14
Hey bro, I'm playing hookie. Come with me today.
27:15
I'm not doing that, Ferris. No, no, no. I'm stuck in bed. I'm wheezing. I'm a hypochondric. I don't feel good. I'm not going with you. Fair. You are coming with me.
27:24
I'm coming to pick you up. Shut up.
27:25
Then he turns to the camera and he goes, "This is my best friend, Cameron.
27:29
In in next year, we're going off to college.
27:31
We're going to go our separate ways.
27:33
I'm never going to see him again.
27:35
He's going to wind up marrying the first girl he has sex with and she's going to walk all over him because you can't respect someone who doesn't respect themselves.
27:42
My plan here is I'm going to take a day off school and I'm going to show my best friend that show him how to live.
27:47
I have 24 hours to show him how to live.
27:49
And if I can't do that, his life is going to go down the drain. Right?
27:54
This is literally explained to the viewer in the second scene of the movie. It's not a mystery.
27:58
We tell the viewer what the movie is about on the deeper level.
28:02
This is about a best friend trying to save his friend's life.
28:05
And wait, the thing the other thing that's key here is the stakes, right? That's the stakes.
28:09
The stakes are The stakes is so key, right?
28:11
It's not about a getting a day off of school.
28:13
The stakes are saving my friend's life. Yeah.
28:17
The higher the stakes, the more interesting the story.
28:19
But I think it's easy to hear that and think, okay, I'm going to write a story that we're going to be on an airplane 40,000 ft high.
28:27
Both engines are going to fail.
28:27
Then what's going to happen is the wing is going to fall off and we're going to be tail spinning. Yeah.
28:32
But I think that what we see all the time is that stakes can be really high with super mundane things like that.
28:40
Well, here's another example of something like that.
28:42
Like these end of the world movies, the the meteor is going to come.
28:45
It's going to wipe out humanity, right? Those are high stakes.
28:48
The the fate of humanity, but that's not what the movie is about.
28:51
In in that movie, it's always about the father has to make good with his aranged daughter before the end of the world.
29:00
That's what we're rooting for.
29:00
The father and daughter to make up to find a way to get along before the meteor wipes out humanity.
29:05
I mean, Interstellar is similar, right?
29:07
Because like the part the the part where like the first time I watched I was crying so much that I was actually like in pain is when Matthew McConnA sees his daughter and now they're like a different age or something.
29:18
And it's actually about father daughter together much more than the sort of cosmic scale of space and time.
29:25
Imagine if that story line didn't have it. You'd be h so what?
29:27
It would have been a big so what?
29:28
It would have been [ __ ] happening.
29:30
That's the story that gets people to cry.
29:32
It's funny that we both used family stories.
29:34
Yeah, family stakes are usually the highest with family and close friends or spouses or whatever.
29:44
That's why you have so many family comedies as opposed to office comedies.
29:48
But then the office becomes a surrogate family.
29:50
So yeah, got to keep rolling with that. That's interesting. Oh well, yeah.
29:55
I mean, office comedies are hard a little harder to write and I wrote on one. Just shoot me. That was my first job.
30:00
But intentionally there was a father-daughter dynamic in that George Seagull and Laura Sanoma they played father and daughter and you get a lot of stories from that from that dynamic.
30:08
So how do you think about creating stakes?
30:13
Every time you write I ask myself okay what happens if the hero doesn't get what they want? Like what's the stakes?
30:20
And if the if the answer is like in one of these stories I do um the ghoul what happens if I can't figure out a way to connect with my daughter? What happens?
30:29
That's a high stakes story.
30:29
So that the story originally wrote was was it formed out of me um my neighbor died and he was a weird dude. This is in real life. This is in real life.
30:40
And so I turned it into a story.
30:42
He I had a weird neighbor lived on my two houses down and he was so creepy and he had this ghoulishness about him. What does ghoulish mean? Ghoulish.
30:49
He was like a he was he looked like a human whisper.
30:51
He looked like he was 4,000 years old.
30:52
He I used to I would call him undead Fred.
30:55
Not to his face, but because I didn't have the courage to do it to his face, but he was, you know, I was like, "How long's this guy been dead?"
31:04
Like, and I said, and I, in the story, I said like, "The guy's got to have a well in his bedroom."
31:08
Like, there's got to be someone in stuck in a well instead of his bedroom, you know?
31:11
He was that kind of creepy guy.
31:12
And then when he died, uh, he had no family, so the house was vacant.
31:18
And then we one day poked around his house.
31:20
And that's when we discovered that he was actually a hoarder.
31:22
And so he was sitting on this horrible secret which was he was a hoarder.
31:26
And so he was just a he was a guy in pain and and and poking around his house. Okay.
31:32
I that's story is limiting is of limited interest when I if I could tell if that's the story I tell. Okay. So what?
31:42
So what I poked around his house so how does it affect me? How did it affect me?
31:46
And in in that story as I tell it, I I walked into the house.
31:50
My I walked into the house uh at first my daughter who was home from art school said, "Hey, do you want to go check out the inside of that house?" And I said, "No. God, it's so gross." "No." "No."
31:58
And I was very judgmental of her. "No."
32:00
And I could feel her as I said it.
32:02
I could feel her pull away.
32:03
And I knew I made a mistake. Huh.
32:05
Because she's always been interested in weird things. And I didn't humor her.
32:09
I kind of just made her feel weird for having an interest in this. It was such a mistake.
32:13
A few days later, my I was came home from a run.
32:15
I stopped by my neighbor Michelle's house to say hello and she said the same thing.
32:19
Hey, you want to go check out that creepy house?
32:22
And this time I said yes, mostly because I wanted to correct myself from how I responded to my daughter.
32:26
So, we kind of broke into the house and we're poking around and the walls were covered in a brownish yellowish film that was tacky to the touch. This is from my story.
32:38
This undoubtedly was caused by all the cigarettes Undead Fred smoked, sucking life from them like a virgin's neck.
32:43
The floor beneath her feet was squishy and and I just described the whole disgustingness of the house. It was awful.
32:49
And as I left the house, I was like, "Oh god, I really was sh I was shaken by how awful it was in there."
32:56
And then when she came out, my neighbor came out, Michelle, she's I have expected her to vomit.
33:01
And instead, she said, "Roxy should go inside. She'd love this. That's my daughter."
33:05
And of all the things I saw that day, hearing her say those words was the most shocking that she understood my own daughter better than I did. And it hit me so hard.
33:17
And I write about then that story.
33:19
And so now we have a story.
33:19
The story is not about the ghoul, the guy who lived in the house two houses down.
33:24
The story is about me, you know, and it's about judgment and how the judgment hurts us and what we do with it. and fatherdaughter. Yeah.
33:37
And father daughter stakes, right?
33:42
Well, there's another thing there too of I thought this person was like this and they were actually like that.
33:46
And then that's exactly right.
33:48
The story opens that way.
33:50
It was about how we don't know the people closest to us physically, our neighbors and also the people in our family.
33:57
How I don't know how we don't know each other, how we think we do.
33:59
And so it's a it's a story about learning, you know, dis realizing that awful that awful discovery, that description of his room. Yeah.
34:09
Oh, I I have it all memorized because I perform it.
34:12
So, yeah, I know it, right?
34:14
How do you work on that to get that description out and really it's vivid?
34:20
I mean, I just I see it vividly like I could you said it one time and like I remember that the tacky yellow walls, the cigarette smoke like you said it one time.
34:29
We could end this right now. Create the scene.
34:32
Like get the video camera. I could set up the shot.
34:35
Yeah, that comes from being a TV writer, I think.
34:37
So, when I'm writing stories, I write very visually.
34:39
I'm always thinking about this is how I differ.
34:43
My writer, my writing became a little different from David Sedaris's as I discovered my own voice.
34:47
I was like, let's just lean into what I know how to do, which is write TV. Yeah.
34:50
And so, when you're writing a TV, you're always asking yourself, okay, what are we watching in this scene?
34:55
Yes, the characters are talking about something, but what are we literally watching? We have cameras on them. It's not a book.
35:01
They got to be doing something.
35:01
Are they on a roller coaster? What are they doing?
35:04
And so, as I'm writing, I'm very visual.
35:06
And so, I think you you could read these stories in the book and you'd say, "Okay, that that's an episode of TV.
35:11
That could be a movie, that longer story, because you're you have to be visual.
35:15
That's how I that's how I like to write."
35:20
What do you need to do to write visually?
35:23
Well, I I describe the scene.
35:23
I don't describe the scene anymore.
35:25
I don't give it any more description than I feel is necessary.
35:28
So, I don't describe every room we walk into, right?
35:30
I only describe I only give details if I think it's necessary for the story.
35:34
Well, the cigarette smoke thing is very vivid because it tells you a lot about this guy.
35:39
Like, who's smoking cigarettes inside in a room so much that like you can see it with the yellow on the wall and then how that kind of comes together with him being a hoarder and like this weird creepy guy.
35:50
Like, dude, you can't even go outside and like smoke a cigarette on the sidewalk. You got to do it inside. He had cigarettes.
35:53
That's what I I describe it.
35:56
His his his soul, his constant and only companion was a lit cigarette with a long ash that was afraid to let go because of what might happen next.
36:04
Spooky is how I would describe Undead Fred.
36:07
And so yeah, that was his characteristic.
36:09
He always had his cigarette and so the walls bled nicotine and and but I wouldn't describe he had other attributes that I I didn't put in the story because they don't help this they don't help you figure out who he is.
36:20
Like I don't you don't need to know the color of his hair, right?
36:22
It's definitely curly hair though. No, no, that's me.
36:27
No, but you don't need to know.
36:28
He, you know, he had like jet black hair. Okay. Interesting.
36:30
When you're writing for a solo show, that's performance. Yeah.
36:37
How's that kind of writing different? And so I met my wife.
36:41
She was an actor on Just Shoot Me.
36:43
That's how I met her, guest star.
36:43
And so we've been together ever since.
36:44
And then when I decided to perform this, you know, because David Sedaris, he he reads his pieces and he's wonderful. He's this character.
36:54
He comes on stage and you just love this guy because he's so eccentric.
36:58
Sometimes he wears a dress.
36:58
I mean, he's just so interesting, right? Yeah.
37:02
He's such a character, but I'm not a character that way.
37:04
So, I can't come on stage and just read. It doesn't work for me. It works for him. It doesn't work for me. So, my wife directed me. She works with me a lot.
37:13
And how do we stage this?
37:15
How do I live the moment?
37:19
So, I'm not So, I'm literally in the moment.
37:20
So, as I'm describing it to you, I'm seeing it for the first time.
37:24
And so that that took a lot of Wait, explain that.
37:28
As I'm describing it to you, I'm seeing it for the first time. That's a cool idea.
37:31
Um, so his hardwood floors were uh maybe I made feel like they give way.
37:40
Then I realized the floors were actually carpeting that were so worn, matted, and dirty.
37:44
I mistook it for rotting wood.
37:46
The his his kitchen countertops were covered in so much cigarette ash, rust, and rat [ __ ] I It was now part of the surface.
37:53
the the sink in his bathroom was was filled with a brown puddle that looked like the last watering hole in in the Serengeti where animals both drank out of and shat into.
38:02
This is where he brushed his teeth.
38:05
So, I'm discovering it for the first time as I'm read I'm not reading it. I'm I'm there with you. Okay.
38:09
So, that this is the big thing to me that was different about that was the cadence.
38:15
It's the cadence because I'm not I'm I'm I'm discovering it.
38:17
I I can't I can't go fast. I'm there. Oh my god.
38:23
And this is all all this is horrific.
38:27
And do you write the cadence in the way that you write it or is that like an emergent thing that you're doing with your wife? Like how does that work?
38:31
I write the book cuz I the book is meant to be read.
38:36
I wanted to write a book.
38:36
I didn't want to write a stage play or or a TV show. I want to write a book.
38:39
And so it just so happens that because I'm a TV writer, it flows naturally into the way I write.
38:46
That's just I can't I can't not do it because that's my training.
38:50
um it lends itself to being performed, but that was never his goal.
38:53
Then we I want to write a book and then it was like, well, you should sell it as an audio book because a lot of people like audio books.
38:59
So then we had to record that and I had to act out the audio book and it fortunately it lends itself to that.
39:05
And then the stage show, the oneman show it lends itself to, but not everything does.
39:08
And there are pieces in the book that I probably wouldn't perform because they're not really they're not great on stage, but some some are better than others. Mhm.
39:15
So as you think about is it we're developing a character around yourself? Yeah, it is.
39:23
And I have to think of myself the who is the character of me and and that became a process of discovery and and that became as I'm writing this I realize I'd write a story and I go why would this character of me why would I have said this when I was 10 years old?
39:36
Why would I have done that?
39:37
And then I'd write an answer and I'd write start writing it out and I go no that feels like the TV version of why I would have done that. What's the real version?
39:44
And it's hard to know when you're writing a story when you're 10 years old.
39:47
Like I don't really remember.
39:48
And so I had to plug it in.
39:48
I had to figure out I was discovering why this kid would have said that or would have done that.
39:54
What's TV version versus real version?
39:56
The TV ver you know the TV version is the shitty one.
39:58
The sitcomy version that you know facade like what like a facade like superficial or what are you saying?
40:06
When you watch a bad sitcom you go I don't buy it. You know I don't buy it.
40:10
don't buy it. And so that was part of my worry about writing my first book was I know people other writers TV writers who wrote in this genre memoir and I'd read their books and I go it felt like it took the notes like when we're writing it for network television we get notes
40:28
and you know what the notes are going to be every single time you know and and so as the better you get at it the more you learn to anticipate the notes because the notes the studio the network's going to give you the same notes it's always the same notes so you know and it's always about protecting the character
40:41
and it's always about ra round rounding off the edges and it's like gh you know uh so when I wrote the book I didn't want I was I didn't want people to think it was written by a sitcom writer I wanted people to think it was written just by an author that's it what's going on with TV networks why are they
40:56
rounding out the edges on these characters broad appeal I mean that that's just always the case they don't want to turn anybody off this is how it is on network now as things have moved to streaming and cable you get a little more liberty they don't They don't they don't always take the edges off. Sometimes they do though.
41:12
Sometimes they do though. H they Why? Because why?
41:14
Because they got to give notes. This is how it works. You turn in a script.
41:19
You turn in a script, your pilot script, whatever script. You turn it in.
41:23
You've worked on it for months and then you email it to them.
41:27
And then 10 minutes later, the assistant calls to that executive. Great.
41:30
Let's set up a notes call.
41:30
How does next Thursday sound? Wait a minute. What do you mean notes?
41:34
She has the person hasn't read it yet.
41:35
He or she hasn't even read it yet.
41:37
How do we know there's notes?
41:38
Oh, there's going to be notes.
41:40
They have a problem with it. We know.
41:42
We have problems with it, but you haven't read it yet.
41:45
That's just how it's always. That's just how it is. Yeah.
41:48
And which is why I wanted to write a book.
41:50
I wanted to write something without the notes. Mhm.
41:54
The premise there is really interesting.
41:56
I kind of can't lose that idea of the character of Michael versus the person of Michael and the dislocation between those two things.
42:04
The character of me is me dialed up by about 10%.
42:06
just so you can see the obviousness.
42:09
So you can see my flaws a little easier to point it out and to make it funny because that extreme attitude makes it funny.
42:16
So like what's one of the funnier parts in the Well, you know, I'm very I'm an anxious person and I know I discovered just how anxious I was as I was writing it.
42:26
I was like cuz you know like as I was saying why would this character say that? Why would I do?
42:31
And these patterns started to emerge.
42:33
I'm like oh that little boy is really afraid.
42:35
M he's just nervous and and so often I come back to oh dude you got anxiety like I never thought about myself that way.
42:43
I just thought it was just norm I'm just normal.
42:44
No no you you kind of have you're pretty anxious and so but that anxiety is actually fun to write about.
42:52
I had a lot of in idios idiosyncrasies growing up.
42:54
Constantly licking my fingers was one of them. Oh really?
42:57
It was something I needed to do if I was touching certain fabrics like corduroy.
43:01
There was something about that texture that made me wse to handle it.
43:05
And dipping my fingers in my mouth made it slightly more bearable, even if it made me look like a [ __ ] Picture a professional bowler wiggling his finger above a fan of a fan. That's what I look like.
43:15
On the fan was my tongue.
43:15
And so I'm just writing about all these these idiosyncrasies that are fun to make fun of.
43:22
I could if I you say pick up my pants, pick up those pants.
43:24
Okay, that's how I would do it.
43:27
Man, that's such a like one of the things that I've really picked up on is is just the just how zoomed in to reality you can get for for for things that are interesting like interesting premises, right?
43:38
Like sometimes you think of the premise we go back to the space, right?
43:41
Like oh this cosmic scale, someone's going to try to go to Mars or something like that.
43:44
But this is like so interesting.
43:46
It's like we all do these little things that either we hate.
43:49
We're like stop doing that, David.
43:51
Or it's like, you know, sometime bite my nails.
43:53
It's like, what the heck are you biting your nails for?
43:58
Why are you eating yourself? What are you doing?
43:59
You know, like that's so that's so weird.
44:02
And like you know that you look like a fool. What are you doing?
44:06
But like you can't stop and then we're like at war with ourselves.
44:08
Like that's a cool premise, but that's like the smallest most simple thing ever.
44:13
But then it then ends up getting really big because it's like I'm anxious and like I have this this this this excess energy and I don't know what to do with it and like man like I I I I'm now at war with myself in all these ways and like it's kind of making me hate myself and it's like what's going on there?
44:34
But like that's the stuff of a good story.
44:38
Writing specifics is how you make it universal. Yeah.
44:39
That's what you got to do that you Yeah.
44:41
I I'm fascinated by all that stuff.
44:44
I like these small character pieces.
44:46
I'm much more interested in that than watching a superhero movie.
44:48
Those are the stories I feel people want to hear.
44:51
How do you think about villains?
44:53
Well, that's the thing and I I've spoken about this a little bit as well.
44:58
Like villains, the more interesting villains when the the really like Darth Vader, people love their Darth Vader.
45:05
I don't I don't think Darth Vader is a great villain.
45:07
He's like come to the dark side. Like why?
45:11
What's other than the magic trick that you do?
45:12
What's what's fun about being on the dark side?
45:14
It seems like a drag other than you doing this with your hands, which the Jedi also do.
45:17
So, I don't know why your side is better than the Jedi side.
45:22
I don't It just doesn't interest me.
45:24
But Lestat, like the Interview with a Vampire. Oh, I get it now. The dark side is sexy. It's fun. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
45:31
He's a good villain because it's the devil when the that's the devil that's more fun.
45:36
You know, the the devil as a character, you know, is sexy, is enticing, and it just comes with a small downside of selling your soul.
45:44
But other than that, it's all upside.
45:46
You know what I'm saying? You know, is it?
45:48
So, that's what a good villain is to me.
45:52
What about villains that are main characters?
45:54
Like, how how does that work?
45:57
Because usually we think of there's the good guy and then there's the villain that's like opposed to the good guy.
46:02
Obviously, I'm painting with really broad a really broad brush there, but sometimes like Breaking Bad is like this, right?
46:08
Where like Walter White is like this villain, but then you kind of love the villain and then like the family kind of turns against him, but then you're still kind of rooting for Walter White.
46:16
Like how did Walk me through the dynamics of that?
46:18
I'll give you another example.
46:19
Walter White is a great example.
46:21
Another one is Tony Soprano. Okay. Right. He's a psychopath.
46:24
He's a sociopath at least.
46:24
Uh and so I don't think of Tony as a as a villain.
46:28
I think of him as or even an anti-hero. I think of as a hero.
46:32
He's just a hero who's just complicated.
46:34
And so he does some awful things. He murders people.
46:37
Uh you know, he's a sociop. He's a mobster.
46:42
You wouldn't want to be his friend.
46:42
You you you'll watch him, but that that'd be dangerous water to tre, you know, tread in be.
46:48
But so um the first time we meet Tony Soprano, there's a way they lay it out so that you're on his side from the beginning.
46:56
And that is the very first time you meet him, he's in he's in the uh his psychiatrist office and he's fidgeting and he's nervous and we know he's very nervous. He doesn't seem strong.
47:06
He seems out of his element and uncomfortable.
47:08
And then he confess he, you know, he's saying he's having these dreams.
47:12
He's having these anxiety attacks.
47:13
We learning about his weaknesses and he's very likable. Then he goes home.
47:18
He hasn't done anything yet, right?
47:20
In terms of mobster types, he goes home.
47:22
What's the first thing we see in that pilot episode?
47:24
He's got ducks in the pool and he's built a ramp for the ducks and he's feeding the ducks.
47:30
That's a very sweet thing for this person to do is to let ducks live in the pool and and build a ramp for them so they get in and out.
47:36
You know, it's very sweet.
47:37
Then, as the story progresses, someone owes him money.
47:40
And so, he chases down that person who deserves to get a beating because that person's running away from their obligations, their debt, and he beats the [ __ ] out of him.
47:49
And that's when we first learn that he's a mobster.
47:52
And to be honest, those first few scenes like, okay, we already like the guy and what he's doing seems very reasonable.
47:58
It's only later as the show progresses that he gets, you know, starts getting a little more deep, uh, you know, you know, darker.
48:05
But, um, at that point, we're already we're already in love with the guy. Yeah.
48:09
It's funny that you say that because there's a lot of people who are really extreme and powerful, whatever.
48:18
Like I know a guy who's just a stone cold killer.
48:22
Not in the literal sense, but like business-wise, like do not get in this guy's way.
48:30
This guy will will go after you.
48:33
Like I've met his lawyer, you know, like I've I've I've heard the stories. Yeah.
48:37
But like I've also spent time with with him and his kids. Like wow.
48:42
Just like what a great dad, right? And Exactly.
48:45
And you see him with his family and that all that buys back so much behavior because you see how he is with his family. Yeah.
48:51
And the juxtaposition of those two is is is something else.
48:57
Walter White, what does he want?
48:58
He's dying of uh of cancer and he h he's a teacher. He has no money.
49:04
He's got to provide for his family somehow, right?
49:06
Or because that's his obligation.
49:08
And so selling meth is the only skill set that he has.
49:11
and and becoming a you know a drug dealer is all everything's forgivable because what he all he wants is to provide for his family. Yeah. Yeah.
49:20
I was at a funeral recently and uh no one really liked the woman who died. Mhm.
49:25
It was one of those funerals no one was really happy to be there because no one had anything good to say. Yeah.
49:31
And uh someone got up and said and said, you know, the thing that we loved about about her is she cared so much about money because she wanted to take care of everyone around around her. Okay.
49:48
And she grew up in the Great Depression and we always thought, okay, you just care way too much about money. It's all you talk about.
49:54
But he was like, you know what the thing about her is like she did that because for her her whole theory of control of reality is like if we can be good financially then everyone around me will be good.
50:05
And so she to got to take care of friends, future generations.
50:09
And I know that the consequences of that we didn't like. Yeah.
50:15
But this was a major redeeming quality.
50:18
And it was one of those things where all of a sudden everyone's like, "Wow."
50:21
like she didn't express love in the way that we would have expressed love.
50:26
But wow, once you see that she really loved the people around her. Yeah.
50:32
And it was good of that person to to pick pick up on that and share that. Yeah.
50:35
Cuz there was nothing else positive at the funeral. Yeah. Yeah.
50:39
You know, so what should we be thinking about when we're introducing new characters?
50:43
Anytime you introduce a character for whatever reason, whatever you're writing, you always want to give them a good introduction.
50:48
And I learned this on Just Shoot Me.
50:50
this on Just Shoot Me. Like I remember you bring a character in and I remember the boss Steve Levitan saying okay we got to give this person an introduction and uh it's not just for the character it's also for the actor like the actors wants to they want the actor wants to come on stage do something interesting right you don't want to just have hello
51:06
like that's boring give them an entrance you know actors have egos too right so you always would think about what's the best way to give a character an entrance what's the first time we see what are they doing can we get them in a sitcom the on a multi- camera sitcom the rule is always to get get him in on a joke and get him off on a joke. You never you
51:21
You never you never a character never walks out of a scene without saying something funny.
51:24
H yeah, got to get him a joke. Yeah.
51:26
Well, the other thing is I guess that the natural thing when you see a new character pop up is who's who is she? What's going on here?
51:36
And then if she just sort of storms on and you get a bunch in 3 seconds, it's like we as the audience are actually very good at drawing inside the lines and kind of figuring out what's going on, but we need something extreme is what I'm hearing you saying. We can learn so much.
51:54
I think we we talked about this as well.
51:56
It's like if you're doing a a farmer character, don't just have him walk in with a pitchfork.
52:00
The first time we see the farmer, let's say he's tending to a cow, a sick cow.
52:04
Is he being compassionate? Is he being mean?
52:10
Does he think the cow is a person, you know, have emotions or think the cow's just cattle? You know, right?
52:14
How is he treating the sick animal?
52:16
That'll tell you a lot about this person.
52:17
And the core thing is it takes like two or three seconds.
52:21
And we'll spend a long time when I'm writing for television figuring out what the best way to introduce this character.
52:27
I never thought about that before.
52:28
I mean, I've thought about intros to a story like a trillion times, but I've never thought about the introduction of a new character and how you want to make that an event. Yeah.
52:37
This is why TV, writing TV takes so long because you could spend a day on this introduction.
52:41
You know, what's the best way because you don't want to send a mixed message to the audience. They'll pick up on it.
52:46
What's so interesting about all this is like you want clarity and complexity.
52:51
You want simplicity and a multiaceted character.
52:57
And it's like all these contradictions within screenwriting that makes the craft come alive. Yeah, it's really hard.
53:04
That's and and that's that's kind of the problem I saw, you know, with with you often see with new writers.
53:10
Uh you just because you can Good for you.
53:14
You wrote a script that like that's a big deal because uh most people just talk about it.
53:18
They don't actually do it.
53:19
So congratulations for writing a script. I always say that.
53:21
But just because you did that doesn't mean it's ready to be shot.
53:24
Doesn't mean anyone should buy.
53:26
It doesn't mean, you know, don't blame the gatekeepers.
53:28
It's it's it's very likely that it's not good.
53:31
And so you the only way to get good is by continuing writing more and more more and more.
53:35
And that's how you get good, right?
53:37
How about mentorship and stuff like that? How does that work? Yeah, that helps.
53:41
Except it's hard to find someone who's willing to someone asked me yesterday on on social media, hey, um, would you be interested in reading my script and giving me your feedback? [ __ ] no. No.
53:54
Like would I be would I be interested in sitting down spending an take an hour out of my day an hour and a half reading your script and then spend another hour compiling notes then another hour to get on a Zoom call with you to give me the give you these notes while you get defensive because that's what's going to
54:10
happen right like that's how I was when I was first starting off would be interested in doing and for free not even a little bit you know so no um so it's hard to find a mentor uh you If you want someone to do that, you're going to have to pay and that person, the better they are, the more they're going to charge you. So,
54:28
So, tell me more about the process of improving because surely you're just way better now than you are.
54:34
And what I'm hearing from you is I wrote a lot. I wrote a lot. I wrote a lot.
54:37
So, if I'm like, "All right, I get it.
54:38
Like, I got to write a lot.
54:40
What else do I The first what I was taught was stop polishing that turd."
54:45
And so, you'll write a script, your first script, and and you'll spend months and then years, you know, fixing and tweaking it and t Well, stop it. It's a turd. Finish it. Start another project. Finish that one. Start another one. Find another.
54:59
And then script five, I guarantee you would be light years better than script one.
55:03
It just that's how you get better is by putting finishing it and moving on to the next one.
55:08
And then you'll this first script that you thought you you wanted to sell for a million dollars and that Hollywood owed you because it was so you'll go back when you finish script five and you'll say, "Oh my god, I can't believe I thought that was the one I was worth fighting for.
55:20
this is worth fighting for.
55:23
And that, you know, that comes from just finishing something and starting uh something new and and and it's not wasted.
55:30
Like people think it's wasted.
55:32
Oh, look, those first four scripts are wasted.
55:34
No, you needed to write those to get to script five. None of it's wasted.
55:40
How has your style evolved?
55:40
I feel like in the beginning, I just wanted to write funny. That was very important.
55:45
I wanted to be a comedy writer.
55:46
And now I realize that comedy, my goal is to tell a compelling story.
55:52
My goal is to make you feel something.
55:55
I judge the quality of a story not so much by how much you're enjoying while you're reading it, but how long it stays with you when you're done reading it. Then it's well written.
56:05
And so the only way to do that I I feel is with drama. So I use comedy now.
56:07
I don't feel like I'm a comedy writer.
56:10
I feel like I'm I'm a writer who uses comedy to get to a result. Yeah.
56:13
And so it's really about like when you read these stories, the first half of them, the first half of anyone's story, it's very funny and it's to get you to lower your guard.
56:26
Oh, this is going to be fun. This is light. This is easy.
56:28
Oh, this is not going to set me off. You lower your guard.
56:32
This is And then when your guard is and then I hit you as hard as I can in the heart. Yeah.
56:35
And so at the second this from the second half of every story, I'm not even trying to make you laugh. What's the point?
56:41
It's the comedy has already served its function which is to get you to lower your guard.
56:46
I don't need to make you laugh now.
56:48
I don't want to make you laugh very often.
56:49
I I had this conversation with a friend of mine who's a writer and he's very talented writer and I and uh I went to see him perform once uh and and he was really good but then he finished his piece.
56:59
He got to a very emotional point and then he buttoned it with this joke at the end to get people to laugh and I go, "You ruined it. Don't do it. Don't do it.
57:10
Don't do You spent all this time to to lower everyone's guard to to get people to feel it.
57:15
Don't take Don't take it away.
57:16
Allow us to sit in that awful moment. Allow us to sit in it. Mhm.
57:18
I mean, this is what Chappelle does so well. Yeah.
57:23
You know, if you were to look at one of his sets, it goes from humor to depth. Yeah.
57:29
And that's what you remember about him, the depth. Yeah.
57:35
It's not how much you've laughed, it's how much you felt.
57:39
What's the name of the guy who like historically used to go to the king and like make him laugh?
57:43
The court gesture, right? Yeah.
57:45
So, this is what the court gesture used to do.
57:47
And this is what I studied in college.
57:48
I I wrote term I wrote papers on the role of the fool and king Arthur King Leer.
57:52
King Arthur and King Lear and uh a touchstone and as you like it and um you know he used the fool a lot.
58:00
You couldn't say something to King Leer.
58:02
He get really offended if you told him the truth.
58:04
But the fool could say whatever you want.
58:05
See, that's that's so profound to me. Yeah.
58:08
That like if you can make the jokes, the like Overton window, what you can say is just so much wider. Yeah.
58:16
If you can make someone laugh, you know, that's the goal.
58:20
And and early in the days on Just Shoot Me as well, you could say whatever you wanted in the writer room as long as you got a laugh. It could be horrible. It could be offensive. It could be awful.
58:28
As long as the room laughed.
58:30
If you said something horribly offensive and there didn't what there wasn't a laugh, then the boss would send you on a pie run.
58:36
You'd have to go to Dupar's across the street and pick up a pie for the for the writing room. Yeah. Py run. Yeah.
58:44
That's just a wild It's a really interesting window into human nature that if you're making people laugh, you can just say whatever you want and the second you stop being funny, you're [ __ ] The swords come out. Yeah. Right. The swords come out. Yeah.
59:00
What's this thing about um about the joke needs to be congruent with the character?
59:07
Well, the joke has to come the best jokes come from character.
59:12
So, if the character is, you know, uh uneducated, then the joke, you know, better come from that.
59:17
I mean, so you don't want to you don't want the the character you don't a character to say something out of character just for a laugh. It won't work.
59:26
As I was prepping for this, you said something that that I thought was so profound.
59:30
I want to kind of get to that. I'm certain it was.
59:33
Well, well, dude, it was something like it was something like a lot of times I think I think what you said is a lot of times people will make a joke and put it in a script as if it's like funny could be from any character, but you're like that's actually kind of seale comedy.
59:50
Like great comedy is like what that character said that was funny.
59:55
It actually could have only come from that character and it carries all the context of that character and that makes for a way better joke.
1:00:01
If you can swap a charact, this is probably what I said.
1:00:05
If you could take a line from this character's mouth and put into that character, it's not a great line.
1:00:10
Uh especially if it's a laugh line, that's not to say we don't do it.
1:00:13
It's just never going to be great.
1:00:15
This the best lines really are specific to that.
1:00:19
Only that character can say it.
1:00:19
And and and like I said, we we we sometimes do this anyway, like as a lazy thing. It's not so much lazy. Go, this is a good line.
1:00:28
It's not that specific to the character.
1:00:29
Someone's got to some one of one of you three people's got to say it, so why don't you You haven't said anything this this whole scene. Let's give it to you.
1:00:34
What are like the the the commandments of Michael Jam writing like thou shalt not when it comes to humor writing? Yeah.
1:00:42
Well, this is this probably sounds snobby, but if you're not funny, just don't do it. It's okay. It's okay to tell drama.
1:00:49
Some people just want to write drama, write up a comedy, and they just don't have it in them.
1:00:54
It's like, but don't it's okay. We need drama. Yeah.
1:00:57
You know, you know, don't don't do it because it's it's it'll be cringy. And I see it.
1:01:01
I I sometimes I see like a comedy one movie go, this is terrible. You know, it's hard. It's hard to do it well.
1:01:08
And it's okay if you can't. We need drama. What else? What else?
1:01:13
Well, like I have certain things that I've picked up on.
1:01:16
certain things that I've picked up on. I I my it's funny my my my writing partner would tell you that this is something that I that I invented I can't imagine I did but I but I often say that questions aren't funny statements are funny and I I know I thought of it but I'm someone
1:01:34
must have thought of it before me I just don't know who and that is um if your line is formed in a question the audience if your punch line is formed in the question the audience is waiting for the answer they're waiting they're not going to step on it they're they're waiting But if it's a statement, they know it's over. Now you Now you can laugh.
1:01:50
And so this the only exception to that is if it's a rhetorical question. Are you an idiot? Right?
1:01:57
That is a question, but it's a it's a rhetorical question.
1:01:59
So you can get a laugh on that.
1:02:00
But if it's are you an idiot?
1:02:02
Um that's not going to get a laugh.
1:02:06
The next line will get a laugh.
1:02:07
And that's why you always put the funny word always often put the funniest word in the sentence at the end. That serves as a cue.
1:02:14
You know, they often say kwords are funny.
1:02:17
There's something about that sound.
1:02:19
Cleveland is a funnier city than Cincinnati, but they're both in Ohio.
1:02:23
Swig is funnier than drink. Yeah.
1:02:26
Or kangaroo is a funny word.
1:02:26
I just said exactly the opposite of what you said. Kangaroo. Kalamazoo.
1:02:29
Those are funny words because a K a K is a funny sound. A hard K. That's one.
1:02:34
Often the rule of three D.
1:02:40
That's the joke is on the third reference. The rule of three.
1:02:43
reference. The rule of three. I you know those are kind of old tired old there there are reasons not to use a rule of three when you're writing comedy and that the first reason being it sounds jokey so sometimes it's okay and sometimes it
1:02:57
just feels like bad writing wait tell tell me about that sounds jokey okay uh a priest and nun and a rabbi walk into a bar like we know a joke's coming right we know the joke is coming so uh you know and sometimes it's okay in that context okay this is going to be funny. But sometimes it it
1:03:15
But sometimes it it signals, uh oh, here it comes.
1:03:17
How is it different doing like slapstick humor versus very dry humor, right?
1:03:21
Because Beas and Buttthead is like pretty dry humor. Yeah.
1:03:24
I mean, slapstick is hard.
1:03:26
You don't know it's going to work until you see it on his feet, you know?
1:03:30
Uh you really need you're really relying on a very talented actor for that. Uhhuh.
1:03:34
Um and if you have one, you can do it, but often you don't.
1:03:37
You know, I've ran a lot of shows where the actors can't do slapstick.
1:03:42
So, you don't write them slapstick.
1:03:44
But dry humor is like, you know, it's gonna land better.
1:03:46
Again, it's dependent on on the actor and so you always write towards their their strengths and away from their weaknesses.
1:03:54
I was on a show once where very talented actress and she was great, but she didn't play certain notes very well and she would seem a little too strident if you gave her if you had her say a certain line.
1:04:05
So, you didn't want her to come off striden.
1:04:07
So, you just wouldn't you wouldn't give her lies like that.
1:04:10
You couldn't make them funny.
1:04:10
I want to try doing this.
1:04:12
I got some some some different movies and stuff and I want to ask you about why you think they're they're they're funny or just what what sort of what comes to mind.
1:04:22
So, this will be kind of a fire round. Okay. Uh, Family Guy.
1:04:24
Well, Family Guy is very broad and it's very uh it's it could be hilarious, but it's it's very broad.
1:04:32
It's not, you know, you know, you're watching a cartoon and it's not it's not grounded.
1:04:36
You're not going to get to an emotional place.
1:04:37
You're going to laugh your ass off, though.
1:04:38
South Park, similar, you know, similar kind of thing.
1:04:44
What's interesting about South Park is that, you know, they bang these out real fast.
1:04:48
The animation isn't very good.
1:04:49
I mean, it's just, you know, the mouse the only the mouse moves, their head doesn't move, and it's a circle and a triangle, you know.
1:04:55
So, you're not looking you're not watching it for the animation.
1:04:59
And sometimes you'll see new writers do that.
1:05:00
They'll they'll come up with, "Oh, this doesn't this look great?" They'll shoot something. It looks great. Yes.
1:05:04
And the animation's great.
1:05:06
It's boring as [ __ ] because the writing isn't there in South Park. It's all writing.
1:05:10
It's all about the writing.
1:05:12
No one's watching South Park because they want to watch the animation.
1:05:13
And they're great at hitting on cultural moments.
1:05:17
You know, like the thing about South Park is if I watch a Family Guy clip from like 15 years ago.
1:05:21
I'll still kind of laugh in the same way.
1:05:23
A lot of times South Park was really funny in the moment where we'd come to school the next day and be like, "Man, you know, did you see the South Park episode last night?"
1:05:31
But they can do that because they're because the animation's so crude.
1:05:34
They can animate them real fast and they can be topical.
1:05:36
When I was working on King of the Hill, we never even tried to be topical.
1:05:40
It took nine months to animate that show.
1:05:42
By the time it came out, you'd forgotten all about that event that you're trying to make jokes about.
1:05:48
And so, and and it would date it.
1:05:50
I mean, that's that's the problem with South Park. It it'll date.
1:05:53
You go, "Oh, this episode is from 15 years ago."
1:05:55
And if you don't remember that reference, it won't be funny. Right.
1:05:58
But in the moment, it's hilarious.
1:05:59
Let's do a Friends and Seinfeld. Yeah.
1:06:02
One of the things about Seinfeld, there was a thing going around.
1:06:06
It's a show about nothing.
1:06:06
And that was like a marketing thing.
1:06:08
It's not a show about money. Nothing. There's there's plenty.
1:06:11
It's a show about plenty. Like what?
1:06:12
Well, I don't even understand why people think it's a show about nothing. This is a marketing.
1:06:17
That's what Jerry Seinfeld said. Yeah.
1:06:19
And he was smart to say that, but it's it's not.
1:06:21
It's like, okay, in this episode, uh, this is an episode where they they there's a great soup guy sells soup, but they can't keep it.
1:06:27
They have to behave, and they can't be if they misbehave, they don't get their soup. That's not nothing.
1:06:32
That's that's same thing with the masturbation episode.
1:06:35
Like all these great episodes, there's plenty there.
1:06:37
It's not about it's not just people talking.
1:06:39
In other words, that would be a show about nothing.
1:06:42
There's plenty of of plot driving forward. How about Friends? Well, the same thing.
1:06:46
I mean, but The Friends was a little more traditional sitcom, but but very similar, you know.
1:06:50
I'm just amazed at how many So, I was not like this, but I had so many friends who just like grew up on these shows.
1:06:57
And what's so unique about sitcoms is the reruns. Yeah.
1:07:03
Like we don't have that as much now because the way that the movie culture has changed, but and streaming. Yeah. Right. Streaming. Right.
1:07:08
And uh with reruns, people just come home and they'd watch Friends and you talk to people.
1:07:15
It's like remember a friend named Zoe and she's a older sister, one of my friends.
1:07:18
She's like, "Oh yeah, I've seen that episode of Friends like seven times." I was like, "What?" Yeah. Right. Seven times. What? Yeah. Right.
1:07:25
But sitcoms have an ability to do that because these are your friends.
1:07:28
You're just hanging out with your friends. It's like comfort. It's very comfortable.
1:07:31
And that is that doesn't ex multi- camera sitcoms. Yeah. Will Ferrell movies. Oh, he's great.
1:07:40
Uh, you know, I Step Brothers was hilarious.
1:07:43
I mean, I love Step Brothers.
1:07:45
Um, I mean, really, but it was so well written, you know, and it was it's about these What makes it well written? Good question.
1:07:52
I mean, there was it was the premise was great and and the buy in those they were both the buyin was that these are grown men acting like they're 12y olds.
1:08:00
Did we just become best friends?
1:08:03
And that's what's so fun about it.
1:08:05
Um, but again, what if two other I'm not sure if two other actors could have pulled that off that well, you know, they, you know, that was really casting. They did.
1:08:13
They were in it phenomenal.
1:08:14
How about Adam Sandler movies? Yeah. Yeah.
1:08:16
I mean, and then that's a little broader and a little, you know, slapsticky and and Yeah. But but also great.
1:08:23
I mean, they're very like, you know, 50 First Dates.
1:08:26
It was very it was very soft and very comfortable movie about, you know, a high concept movie about falling in love with a woman who can't remember one day to the next. Yeah.
1:08:33
And it was very it was a fun movie, you know. Yeah.
1:08:35
At the risk of yanking open the taboo door, how do you feel about chat GBT and writing jokes?
1:08:44
Oh, well, like I I don't understand.
1:08:46
I don't even understand the point of it is like I don't understand.
1:08:50
People say to me like do you use any AI tools?
1:08:52
It's like a AI is not a tool.
1:08:54
It's in lie of like it's in lie of writing. I can't think of a joke.
1:08:57
So I'll have AI come up with a joke for me.
1:09:00
Do you want to be a writer or not, you know?
1:09:03
Do you want to I wouldn't get into a Whimo these self-driving cars and say look at that.
1:09:07
I'm look what a great driver I am.
1:09:09
The car is a great driver. I'm not a great driver.
1:09:11
The same thing with chat GPT.
1:09:13
Like if you're using AI to write, what do you why are you why did you become a writer in the first place? Writing is hard.
1:09:18
It's supposed to be hard.
1:09:20
That's that's why it feels good.
1:09:21
But couldn't it be like a mathematician using a calculator? I don't think so.
1:09:25
Because you're going to AI, you're you're using a prompt to give you the answer.
1:09:29
It's not I I don't think so. Okay.
1:09:31
But what if you had uh what if you had you're saying my job is to make the best show possible. Okay.
1:09:40
So, you have you got your one man show, right?
1:09:42
You're trying to really captivate people.
1:09:43
What I'm hearing you say is, "Okay, I want to be a writer, so I got to write everything for that show."
1:09:49
But if I told you, Michael, I could make this show 20% better. We can use AI.
1:09:52
You'd be like, "No, I'm not.
1:09:53
No, I'm really not interested."
1:09:55
I think I think the point of writing and the point of art in general is to take something inside of yourself, something painful or ugly or difficult, and to transform it the way you would transform mud and turn it into a vase, like clay, right?
1:10:07
And that that's and and you do this to help you understand yourself and your place in the world. That's the point of it.
1:10:15
And and I'm not interested in I'm really not I'm not interested in watching and I don't think people are either from what I get to sense is like people are not interested in they're creeped out by by AI writing and telling them like I if AI becomes sentient and AI uh yeah if it becomes sensient then I'd be interested in AI telling me a story what it's like to be a computer.
1:10:38
Do you aspire to be human?
1:10:38
Do you think humans are weak?
1:10:41
What's it like to be a thinking sentient being but be stuck in the internet and not in the world?
1:10:46
Like is that is that frustrating? Is it liberating?
1:10:50
What is it like AI tell me that story?
1:10:52
Because I can't possibly tell me, you know, they you can tell me that story, but I don't want AI to tell me a story about the human experience.
1:10:58
I want a human being to tell me about that. Yeah.
1:11:01
But the thing is like sometimes I'll ask AI to to kind of write me a joke about something and I will just laugh my face off. Okay.
1:11:09
Now I'm not that funny, but you don't get to take credit for that.
1:11:13
So then so then should I what? Credit the AI for it.
1:11:15
No, but but do you feel good about Hey, look how funny I am.
1:11:23
All you did was enter a prompt.
1:11:23
Yeah, but there's an art in entering the prompt. I don't know.
1:11:28
No, I don't I don't I I just feel I don't I don't to me it's it's supposed Writing is hard.
1:11:34
It's meant to be hard because the satisfaction comes.
1:11:35
Most writers I talk to will say this.
1:11:37
None of us enjoy writing.
1:11:39
We all enjoy having written and it's just that look I did it, you know.
1:11:44
Uh and yeah, it's meant to be hard.
1:11:44
Like um yeah, I mean, look, there's I'm also taking the other side here.
1:11:49
like we could turn around the tables and I could be right on your side.
1:11:52
But what I'm hearing you say is is is is that it hits the part of you that sees this as a craft and it like it it that it shatters your soul. Yeah. Yeah.
1:12:04
I mean I don't want to get too melodramatic on certain things but but yeah it good writing does that I think you know and that's the satisfaction that I get out of it.
1:12:14
It's like because no one goes no one becomes a writer to get rich or you go you don't go into the arts.
1:12:20
It wouldn't be wouldn't be great if you do, but it's like you go into the arts because you don't want to have a desk job that you hate and and you and just creating makes you feel whole and and that's the satisfaction you get. Yeah.
1:12:31
I guess what I'm hearing you say is it's it it defeats the point of why we're doing this in the first place. Yeah. Yeah.
1:12:38
And and like I said, you know, I didn't say this yet, but AI will have it do the things we don't want to do.
1:12:46
You know, there's plenty of things I don't want to do.
1:12:48
I the writing I do want to do.
1:12:51
But also, when you talk about your voice, like if you're trying to find your voice when you're writing and you're relying on AI, you're not going to get your voice.
1:12:59
You're going to get the voice of whatever amalgamated thing it pulls up.
1:13:02
And then it's not going to be consistent really.
1:13:04
Well, that's sometimes true, but I think that AI is going to get really good at at at mimicking your voice.
1:13:11
For example, I can say this with fairly high conviction.
1:13:15
Uh, if you wrote for uh for King of the Hill for for for 15 years, and you put every all the scripts into the AI, the AI would do better at mimicking that voice than anybody except for the writers of King of the Hill.
1:13:32
Now, you could train someone, but you probably can do better than AI.
1:13:34
It would take more than a month. I I I understand that.
1:13:38
But let's say you're writing a piece just for yourself and you're like, I need a good joke here.
1:13:41
Uh, I'll go I'll go dig one out of AI.
1:13:43
That joke is not going to be in your voice.
1:13:46
It's not going to match the rest of the the voice of your of your piece. How could it?
1:13:49
So, the inongruence is is I think so.
1:13:51
But I I do know what you're saying about I mean, the studios are already trying to do this.
1:13:57
You know, I don't think we're there yet, but I think we'll get there.
1:14:01
you know, where AI can write a episode of King of the Hills as well as the staff can, you know, that's what their hope is.
1:14:08
So, what I'm hearing you say is that it violates the the the art and the craft inside of you. Yeah.
1:14:13
I just don't know why you'd want like I could see why a studio would want to do it, right?
1:14:18
Because they can fire all the writers.
1:14:20
They're always looking for ways to fire writers, right?
1:14:21
I just don't know why an individual would want to do it.
1:14:23
One of the things that's so nice about writing with AI sometimes, like I was working on a paragraph recently.
1:14:28
There was a there was a paragraph about how I came to faith, how I became a Christian. Okay.
1:14:32
And I was trying to basically describe I had this so I grew up in San Francisco.
1:14:38
There's a place called the Exploratorium. Mhm. It's a science museum.
1:14:41
And I used to like spin this like ball around this thing and you would spin it and you would It's how I learned about centrifugal force and it kind of come back into the middle. Yeah.
1:14:51
And what happened is that's sort of how I came to faith.
1:14:54
I felt like I was spinning around, but then that was like a circle, but this was sort of like more like elliptical in nature where sometimes I'd go like away from Christ, sometimes I'd come to Christ, but then like eventually I realized that I was kind of spinning around and around.
1:15:07
And even though it wasn't like a perfect circle, it was more like ovales.
1:15:10
I got to a point where I was like, I know what my fate is going to be.
1:15:14
And so rather than trying to fight that I'm going to end up becoming a believer, I'm just going to kind of surrender to that.
1:15:21
And that was sort of the day that I became a Christian. Okay.
1:15:24
And you explained that very well. I get it.
1:15:26
So the reason why I can explain it that well is because I was working with AI.
1:15:31
I had a very spent like two minutes talking to AI.
1:15:33
Hey, can you help me find the right metaphor?
1:15:36
I got this thing and that thing and this thing and that thing.
1:15:39
And so I feel like that's what I wanted to say.
1:15:41
It was totally in my voice.
1:15:42
But that was I think you could have gotten I think you could have gotten it without it on your own.
1:15:45
I I I I think you're selling yourself.
1:15:47
I think you're selling yourself. could have done that because you used to go to the you used to go to the you know you you grew up in San Francisco you went to this museum you have this memory of of the ball you was the demonstration of
1:16:00
gravity right you have this memory I think you could have done it I think you sell yourself short yeah I well the thing is I I'm excited about by it because I see it as a as a collaborator now write getting AI to write for you I think is just ridiculous like completely ridiculous. But getting AI to write with
1:16:19
But getting AI to write with you, I think that that's where I see things differently.
1:16:22
For me, it's like, but what is your because then you don't own that because then it becomes you have a copyright issue and you can't copyright anything that AI comes up with. Then it's not yours.
1:16:31
I don't know what your goal is with it. Yeah.
1:16:33
I mean, I'm I'm working on a personal essay, so the copyright stuff doesn't isn't an issue here. Um Yeah.
1:16:41
But are you planning on publishing it? uh on my site. So, it's an essay. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.
1:16:48
It doesn't bother me because for me it's the it's the creating with, but I I see how somebody could see it differently.
1:16:55
It's just that's kind of where I stand.
1:16:56
I'm like, man, it's so nice having this.
1:16:58
To me, it's a tool that none of this not none of my colleagues were asking for.
1:17:02
You know, we we didn't talk about it.
1:17:05
We were I mean, sometimes we would joke we would joke, can't we just leave the computer on and we'll come back in the morning and the script would be all done. That was just a joke. Yeah.
1:17:13
But we knew we were going to be there till 4 in the morning. Yeah.
1:17:16
How do you think about making a good premise?
1:17:18
Cuz I thought that you explained severance really well. Severance.
1:17:22
A mysterious company employs people who've had their memories severed. Yeah.
1:17:26
So that they're bifurcated into two separate souls.
1:17:29
A worker soul who has no knowledge of the outside world and a civilian soul who has no knowledge of the inside world.
1:17:36
I just think it's such a Don't ask me how they came up with that.
1:17:40
It's brilliant and it works.
1:17:41
It works so well that I don't write sci-fi.
1:17:44
Part of the problem with writing science fiction is that it's very tempting to to serve the premise too much where you're you're all you're talking about is and they could have done this on severance, but they didn't.
1:17:55
They didn't fall into that trap where all you're talking about is the rules of the science fiction and and and the and the and the industry and what they're selling in this building and what why this evil company exists.
1:18:07
What's really more interesting are the relationships between the characters and the relationships between the characters and themselves.
1:18:13
This outside in the out the audi and the innie.
1:18:16
I mean that's and that's all built into the premise.
1:18:20
It's a brilliant premise.
1:18:20
Don't ask me how they came up.
1:18:22
Someone came up with a brilliant premise. It's hard.
1:18:23
I don't even try to come up with brilliant premises in when I'm writing comedy though.
1:18:29
So, break down what what makes that such a brilliant premise in is that baked into the premise is is the conflict between the characters in in terms of why would a character decide to sever their memory.
1:18:41
It sounds like a dumb thing to do. Why?
1:18:43
Oh, because this character is in pain.
1:18:44
They had a tragedy or or this character is a loser and that's why they did it.
1:18:48
Or this character is doing it because she owns the company and she has to do it.
1:18:52
Like it's baked into the premise.
1:18:55
Whereas if you did a car if you did a science fiction about uh there's been an apocalypse and now uh these these are the so survivors of the apocalypse.
1:19:06
Well, these are the ones these are the people who lived and you got to give it a lot more thought.
1:19:09
Okay, one person should be smart, one person might be lucky, one person might be a scientist, one person might be an athlete and then you kind of you have to fabricate the conflict.
1:19:22
Whereas in baked into the premise of severance is the is the conflict which is brilliant.
1:19:27
I don't know how they did I don't know how this person hit on such a good idea.
1:19:31
Well, one of the things I'm hearing you say is that in a good premise the rest of the story just has a way of unfolding. Yeah.
1:19:37
And it and and that that's might be a little filled because it almost it almost implies that it writes itself because nothing writes itself, right?
1:19:47
Like sometimes people would say like, you know, we I go into a meeting and they go, "Oh, here's the premise. It writes itself."
1:19:52
And I'm like, "Oh, really?
1:19:53
Then just give me a check and uh I'll come back on Monday and you show me what wrote itself."
1:19:58
You know, and nothing writes itself.
1:20:00
But um but like I said, baked into that premise is like there's already a lot of like my eyes light up when I hear that premising. I'm like, "Oh, wow. It's fertile." Yeah. It's very fertile. Yeah. Mhm.
1:20:13
And what was what you said about giving the premise too much when you service it too much? What does that mean? What does that mean?
1:20:19
It's kind of like um you're servicing the rules of the world.
1:20:25
Uh it's very easy for science fiction shows to fall into this trap where they start like no one get I don't want to name names because I don't want to badmouth that shows, but I can think of some. Yeah.
1:20:35
where where there were shows where like they're constantly they're explaining the rules and then deconstructing the rules and coming up with new rules and as the episodes go further and further because they have to keep sustaining interest.
1:20:48
Well, that's a little bit of what happened to Lost. Okay, Lost was amazing. It was so good.
1:20:51
And then you get the season 3 finale, the flash forward.
1:20:55
I remember being at my friend Jeremy's house. I was in seventh grade.
1:20:59
I used to go every single week to watch Lost.
1:21:00
And we march around the house like, "Oh my goodness."
1:21:02
And then by season six it was just like, "What?"
1:21:05
because you're servicing the rules of the ar the the island and and what's going on in this island and it becomes less really about the characters themselves and more and I think also this is when Christopher Nolan messes up.
1:21:15
I think that this is where he messes up.
1:21:16
He just goes too far into his little world and like that's how I felt with Tenant.
1:21:21
It's like okay now I'm trying to just figure out the physics of the world that you've created and I can't even be in your story. Yeah. Yeah.
1:21:27
And I'm not going to badmouth any of them. Right.
1:21:30
But uh but well I can I'm outside the industry but uh but but I I I understand your point right because it's really it's really about what people are tuning into are about the relationships between the characters you know and and it's really at the end of the day it's just that tell me more about that.
1:21:46
It's honestly it's like uh every episode I write of Fellowman is is this character gonna figure out a way to get along with this character or in my book because it's personal essays.
1:21:58
Am I going to figure out a way to get along with this other facet of myself?
1:22:02
Am I going to figure out how to reconcile those two? That's the stakes.
1:22:07
And so the stakes are is this basically it's are these two people are are we going to can we these two people these two people who love each other figure out how to get along?
1:22:14
Am I going too far with the apherism of every story is a human story? No.
1:22:18
I I think that's exactly right.
1:22:20
I think I'll take it a step further.
1:22:22
I think every story is a boy trying to become a man or a girl trying to become a woman or a toy or a doll trying to become a human being. Pinocchio. That's Toy Story. Yeah, Toy Story. That's not some story. That's every story.
1:22:40
Every story is about a boy trying to become a man.
1:22:41
So, I was uh I had dinner with maybe the world's top game designer like three months ago, right?
1:22:50
And uh somebody asked him, "What is it that most people get wrong about board games?" And he goes, "So simple.
1:22:57
They try to make the games too entertaining." And I'm like, "What?"
1:23:03
He goes, "It's not about the game.
1:23:04
It's about the interactions between the people who are playing the game." Oh.
1:23:07
And I was like, "That's why you're you." That's it.
1:23:10
So I I thought you were going to say he made video games, but he was a board game board game designer.
1:23:14
It's about the interaction between the people playing. Yeah.
1:23:18
So it's like every board game is just a context for relationships to form, for conversations to happen. That's very interesting.
1:23:25
And uh it's similar to what you're saying where it's just about the people.
1:23:28
It's about the human beings. Yeah, that's great.
1:23:30
That's a that's great insight. Yeah. Yeah. This was fun. Good. I'm glad. I had fun, too. Good stuff, man. Thanks for coming on. Yeah. Pure.