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Some of the greatest artists, composers, scientists, fill in the blank are people who are immensely comfortable with uncertainty.
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>> Curiosity is ultimately being grateful that you don't know everything.
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>> It's this gratitude for uncertainty.
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If you knew everything, there is literally no room for curiosity to emerge.
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The reason why we look at those fall moments with an element of grace as we get older is because you just become a little more comfortable with uncertainty.
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If you think you know everything, life is going to be incredibly boring and dull. Well, hello everybody.
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It's Jim Oanessy with yet another Infinite Loops.
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a little different this time because I've already had an incredible conversation with Lawrence Yo, the author of the inner compass, cultivating the courage to trust yourself.
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About 10 years ago, I I was reading I think I don't know Tony Man uh Dlo or somebody like that and I I had this insight that you know at best I am a co-creator, right?
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and and that shift in mindset was incredibly uh renumerative for me because it it removed my mind from thinking, you know, this is my idea.
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This is, you know, I'm going to be the one who owns in quotes owns this idea and puts it out there and made it much more collaborative with people I don't even know, right?
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like I'm at best a co-creator and so all of a sudden like the muses started speaking to me in a way that they had not in the past, right?
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I would get an idea for a book or whatever and like I I found that when I made the shift, I was my aperture opened way up and like, oh wow, that might work really well for this or or you know the the I because I think what it does is it really encourages synthesis of ideas and at least for my in my case that's been really really helpful.
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>> I I'm curious, why do you think you have this co-creator mentality?
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Like I because I feel like the initial impulse for a lot of folks that create things is that not necessarily this ownership of an idea, but it's like, oh, I have my ideas and then I want to structure them a certain way and have total agency, right?
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Like agency and creat creativity are so linked where it and having that agency really makes it feel like it's yours.
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And I I feel like that's generally a default position, but it seems like you consciously are aware that hey, I'm a co-creator and using the phrase at best that's what I am.
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Like what do you think led to that perspective?
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>> Uh in my youth uh in my career, I was a real proitizer.
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uh I was uh you know uh to to paraphrase TS Elliott's proof rock I have come to tell you all I shall tell you all and and you know in in that youthful uh exuberance uh I I realized that I did get across a lot of ideas that were kind of new and these were in the investment field But I I I guess that in my own case I I I am a very internally oriented person.
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I'm not an externally oriented person at all.
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In fact, I was reviewing letters that I wrote to my kids and like that was literally the first letter which was I even wrote down part of it and we got to do the formal introduction of you soon but I'd love just jumping into the conversation.
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I >> I feel like this is already the podcast. >> I think so too. >> Yeah.
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I feel like it's just very natural way to dive into it if >> which is really sounds all right to you. >> Yeah, it does. Which is really great.
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But uh where where is the letter to the kids?
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Um, I'm a huge fan of the >> Da Jing.
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>> And so that was like literally when I wrote uh this to my son who was six days old when I wrote it.
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Uh it's still like seems pretty cool to me now.
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It's like so Latu he has this great quote which is you know if you know much about others you could be considered learned but understanding yourself makes you more intelligent still uh control others others might perceive you as powerful but self-control selfmastery you're much more powerful happiness from others others might consider you rich but contentment that is self-willed that's inexhaustible wealth.
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Now that's all lous, right?
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And then so to my kids I said you will only uh you will always be only as good only as happy only as successful as you perceive yourself to be.
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Happiness springs from within, never from without.
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And and like I was 24 when I wrote that to my kids and my life thus far has not disproven that idea.
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That That's Jim Sue right there.
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That That's a That's a banger lion, man.
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You know, I One thing I've been telling anyone that's an expecting parent is to write a letter to their child. >> Good for you. Good for you.
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>> And then I I published a letter to to my daughter too before she was born or I started on it and then she was born and published it.
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But it it has such this interesting aspect of clarifying your value system, right?
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Like knowing that, okay, this is at this snapshot in my life, what I feel like I understand about the world through lived experience and there's going to be more lived experience.
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I know and some of my views may shift, but this is like there's a conviction around this letter that you are writing where you don't feel like I have to be too nuanced or anything.
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It's like here's what it is and let me just communicate it and you know it del like you're going to be delivering this to a being that's going to have your unconditional love.
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There is this huge thing around that and logistically it's best to do it before they're born because right after you're not going to have much time to do it.
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So I always say do it now.
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do it now before they're out.
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And then you're kind of you have the headsp space to be like, "Oh, the world is beautiful or this is how I want to think about it this way."
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Cuz after that, it's just all about survival.
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Make sure the kid is alive, so do it now.
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Well, you know, the the thing about unconditional love is really interesting because um before uh my oldest is Patrick and before his first child was born, a boy, um I said to him, you after after he is born, you will understand how much I love you.
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And literally he came out holding Pierce with tears in his eyes and he goes, "I had no idea how right you were."
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Because that unconditional love is something that is so hard to kind of verbally or in any kind of artistic art form convey to another human until they experience it. >> Yeah.
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Dang, that sent goosebumps up my on my skin because I know exactly how you and Patrick feel and it's a beautiful thing.
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And I really think unconditional love.
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It just comes down to the element of knowing that there is no game to be played with this human being.
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There's there's nothing that you can achieve.
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I mean, I could be proud of you for achieving something, right?
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But my love is not contingent upon that achievement.
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like pride and love are distinct emotions.
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And like I think the the sad thing about much of what happens after childhood is that there is the inevitability of playing certain games for you to be able to function in the world.
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And the beautiful thing is that if you have the knowledge though that there are people that will give you that love regardless of how well you may be playing a certain game or not or what have you.
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That goes a long way in terms of building confidence, in terms of having conviction in yourself, right?
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It's I I just thought about this a lot as a parent and I like to just question things that seem like duh.
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what what exactly is the unconditional love of a parent so important for?
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And it really is the knowledge that um yeah, I can receive it independent of any hierarchy I have to climb or any status I may I may inhibit or have.
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like paradoxically that actually helps to make you more successful or or navigate relationships better because you have a beacon that shows you what it's like to have that love without any of the influence of this game.
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influence of this game. So I I yeah um I'm very curious to see as my daughter grows up and she you know goes into certain pursuits and builds builds a name for herself or reputation like how me and my wife's love will be able to
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carry her through all the the beautiful and sorrowful moments in in that journey you know >> that yeah and that you know when we were uh just back briefly on unconditional love I know whether you've read uh much of Tony Dlo but like he writes incredibly beautifully about these topics. Uh he he died way too soon. Um
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Uh he he died way too soon.
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Um he was a he was a Jesuit priest who um essentially got enlightened by a conversation that he had with a rickshaw driver who was terminally ill and and dlo said you know how much do you make a day?
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Uh I can't remember where it was.
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that might have been in Mumbai or or I I don't recall.
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Um and the guy told him and he goes, "If I paid you that, would you be willing to just talk to me?"
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Because Dlo was flabbergasted by this guy just had this incredible beeish aura about him.
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And and Dlo knew through the brief conversation that led Dlo to ask him to spend the day with him that he was terminally ill.
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And he he just that didn't he he couldn't gro that.
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How how can somebody who's a rickshaw driver and terminally ill, you know, just have this innate sense of happiness?
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And one of the things that came out of it was his work on unconditional love and on the his idea that attachments to outcomes are the root of all suffering.
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He he said that he learned from this driver uh these kind of profound truths that you know the minute you attach how you feel whether you're happy or sad or whatever to some specific outcome you've you've made your entire life conditional right and that really hit me is like when you look around at so many
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people who are suffering you you could almost always find that it's because they're, you know, in the sort of mimemetic sense modeling their desires uh on other people and on, you know, Gerard the Gerardian idea of mimedic um desire and and that they they're not internal at all. They're
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They're like, "Oh, Lawrence has this and this and this.
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I I want this and this and this and I won't be happy until I get this and this and this.
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Anytime in my opinion that you make things conditional, you're kind of setting yourself up uh because like okay, what happens if that outcome doesn't happen? Then oh, I failed. I'm sad. I'm no good.
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You know, it can lead to a really almost unconscious downward spiral that you're not even aware of.
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The idea of con conditionality I think is very important to your work as well.
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>> And I think the mystique of what another person may have also makes you feel like it will bring you contentment, right?
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The uncertainty around that.
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And it's funny because I I I feel like envy is probably one of the most pernitious emotions.
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And at the same time, you know, I think it out of whether it was Mer or Buffett that said, right, greed doesn't drive the world. It's envy.
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And one of the more nihilistic statements, but uh there's truth to it.
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But I feel like the interesting thing about envy is there's it's not like someone else is pointing to you and being like uh you don't have what I have.
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There's there's rarely this targeted you don't have this.
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It's more of you look at it and it's your own inner critic that interprets what they have, right?
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It's like, "Oh, I don't have that. Why don't I have that?
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What does that say about me?
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What would it take for me to get like that happens the moment someone posts something about a promotion that that they had or uh some Yeah. some achievement.
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And it's also crazy because the people that we tend to be most envious of are people where I feel like they actually have a great potential to be very close to you.
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So one distinction I make here is that let's say we use wealth as the object of desire.
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You look at people like um Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates or something like that and those people aren't really targets of envy from you know the average person's perspective.
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It's like they actually may be sources of inspiration because they're too far away. They're too far removed.
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>> But it's actually the people that are closer to you.
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So, it's like it might be the high school friend you had where you stopped hanging out and then you go on LinkedIn one day and you're like, "Oh, he's doing that thing, but we were once in that same place in high school together or or your next door neighbor."
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Like, these are the people where envy runs wild.
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And paradoxically, they're the people that actually could become friends.
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Or if you were to reframe it, these are folks where all right, if I were to convert that envy into inspiration or more so I could view this as a more, hey, we're similar together, like we have shared interests, but instead it's like I want what you have and that makes me feel inadequate.
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So it's this weird thing where we envy the people that have the greatest potential to be close to us. >> Yeah.
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And I think you're dead on about the proximity idea.
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Um you you you tend not to um actually I I just had a completely different thought about the inner critic.
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Uh, I remember reading a piece that I thought was really illuminating, at least for me, and it was uh a a conversation between a therapist and uh a person who was uh really racked by um a feeling that their spouse was always criticizing them, was always, you know, saying things like, you know, you're you're really bad at, you know, X, Y, and Z, right?
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And and the therapist said something really unusual and interesting.
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He he looked at her and said, "Would you be angry if I called you an ugly horse?"
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And she was kind of taken aback a little bit and she's like, "What?"
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And he said, "Would you be angry if I called you an ugly horse?"
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And she goes, "Of course not. I Why?
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I I don't even understand. That's just so bizarre.
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Why would you call me an ugly horse?
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And he goes, the reason you are not at all triggered or angry by me saying that is every fiber of your being knows that you are not an ugly horse.
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Whenever you react with anger to a statement, it's because your inner critic thinks that there might be some truth to what is being said about you.
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I always thought that I really when I read that I was like, "Wow, that is just bang on."
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What do you think about that? >> I I love it. I love it. And it's it's so true.
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And I think when it comes to any object of envy, any object of desire, um there's always a narrative behind that object.
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And I think that's why I mean wealth and status are the greatest sources of envy.
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And they're also the things where there's always a story behind it.
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Um, you know, money is a valueneutral thing, right?
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It's it's what we choose to do with it that gives it its energy and so forth.
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And as a result, it's all the way you interpret it.
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I mean, of course, there's a certain baseline of money you have to have in order to survive and function, but after that place, it becomes more of all right, what's the story you tell yourself about it?
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Um, how does your upbringing come into the picture?
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How do you think about scarcity and abundance and things of that nature?
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And anytime there's a story to be told about something, then there's always the flip side, which is something about this narrative will include inadequacy.
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Um, like every story has the yin and the yang, the poles, the different poles going on.
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Whereas in that ugly horse example, you don't even you're not even aware of what the poles are because you've never thought of yourself as a horse. Right. >> Right.
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>> So there's no story really to latch on to.
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But with yeah, money, status, things of that nature, there's always a story.
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And the one thing that I really wanted to hone on with the inner compass is who is telling these stories?
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Who is telling these stories?
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And you may think that it just kind of came from within or you always had it and this is always the way you lived your life.
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But I really I think that it's layers and layers upon some sort of conditioned narrative that is kind of overlaying your core your core being.
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And much of education I think the function of education is really to peel back a lot of those layers.
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And the problem is that age and wisdom tend to be correlated, right?
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like you just have a lot of lived experience and you just become a little more comfortable in your own skin.
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You have more conviction um because experience yields lessons and you know older folks that have more lessons as a result.
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But I think that the greatest educators what they help us do is to break that correlation.
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They help us attain whatever that wisdom is through understanding earlier so that they don't have to be on a deathbed and so forth to know oh that's what life is all about.
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It's like you want at the end to feel like that was nice that was a that was a nice journey and I imbued many moments I had in my life with presence.
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I think that's all we could really hope for.
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And education helps you have that feeling before the end. Really? >> Yeah.
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And I I'm I'm fascinated by social conditioning uh and why and how it works.
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Um and I I'm I I I don't have an extreme view on it.
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By that I mean I think a lot of social conditioning results from kind of millennia after millennia of other humans experiencing lessons like you just mentioned and that it gets compressed, right?
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It's it's almost like an algorithm for survival.
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Hey, don't don't sit on that hot stove and you know that kind of thing.
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So I definitely think that there are you know uh evolutionary benefits to a certain level of social conditioning.
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I think it would be virtually in I think it was more of a pipe dream when Rouso was basically uh propounding that you know everywhere we are born free and yet we are all in chains right like that's a very romantic notion the idea that we could have a society where there was no conditioning I think it is suie generous it just comes out of all of those who kind of went before us is it all right of course not should it be questioned? Of course it should.
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But then you kind of slip into like Bob Wilson who is an author who I love.
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He he and it and it touches on your idea of intuition.
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Uh because Bob would say that a a lot of um social interaction, right, is based on unwritten game rules and that people who do well in their lives intuitively understand those game rules a little bit better than people who maybe don't do so well in their life.
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And and he wrote a lot about how you can learn how to understand game rules that are unwritten better.
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um and and question always question them, right?
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Um because you end up with a uh situation as I told you in the beginning, we all tend to feel like our our intuition is a our internal compass uh pointing to true north for us.
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But as I mentioned about how I started recording my intuitions, right?
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because I kind of thought, you know, I wonder am like I think I I always feel like that these intuitions are correct.
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I I wonder maybe it's the quant in me, right?
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Uh I wonder like how right are they?
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And and so but I found that by doing that it actually improved my intuition not dramatically but significantly.
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What do you think about that kind of process for for people who are reading your book?
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>> So I think the inner compass metaphor is something that we all inherently know in a sense but just to clarify.
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So the way I present your intuition is you have like an inner compass and then you have the true north which identifies your sense of conviction.
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this feeling that there is uncertainty, but I'm going to move forward with this.
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And then anything that kind of swings you out of it really are the forces of conditioning.
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And I feel like whenever you are in pursuit of your true north, but you're questioning it, it's because that questioning stems from fear about what you're doing.
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And that fear is generally a narrativeized thing.
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It's it's the way that you're taking in kind of the collective conventional wisdom and thinking that all right if I do this it kind of goes against what I feel like I should do.
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And this inner compass really the way it signifies your intuition and I define intuition as this kind of inner wisdom that welcomes uncertainty.
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that welcomes uncertainty. It it really is a a relationship between uncertainty and I think if you were to visualize it kind of taking a step back from the compass any decision that you want to make rationality will get you to a certain
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point right and I say in the book there are three things for example if you get a if you get these three right and you get a ton of other things wrong you'll still be pretty happy it's one where you live, two, what you work on, and three, who you're with. These These three things.
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Now, for something this important, you might think, well, okay, I'm going to do a pros and cons list and figure out this city versus that or why might I want to marry this person and all that, but we all kind of laugh at that because we know that for the most important things in life, your rationality takes you so far and then there's a decision you ultimately make.
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That gap is your intuition.
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That's basically what it is.
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Um, you could even speak think of it as unwritten rules that you're thinking about, right?
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Like the uncertainty that you choose to delve into.
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So, you have this compass and I think the question here is, well, you think you're at true north and you're you're moving towards uncertainty with conviction, but how do I know it's at the right place?
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Like, what if I end up falling off a cliff?
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And this is kind of where I introduce another metaphor, but you could think of it as almost metacognition or like meta intuition, right?
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The the thing that is governing the compass.
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And this magnet essentially is what I refer to as self-standing, the pursuit of knowing yourself.
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So if the compass is showing you where you're going to go, the the magnet is telling you, hey, is your is your true north pointed in the right direction?
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Knowing what you know about yourself.
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And I think the magnet is what is commonly left out of the equation of just trusting your gut.
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So this magnet, the default state is it's very small. It's very small.
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So this is why in high school we just want to date people based off how attractive they are.
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You don't get care about personality or the moment you go to college, everyone wants to go into banking, consulting, the same industries, right?
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Cuz you're just looking at what everyone else is doing.
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And yet you still have conviction.
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You're like, "This is exactly what I need to be doing."
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But the truth is the magnet is really small.
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And anytime the crowd says, "Well, we should do this this thing instead."
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Then it's not strong enough and it'll just blow away.
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But the bigger and the bigger the magnet gets, like this is what life is all about.
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You're trying to make that magnet larger and larger.
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So that if the compass is pointed there and you feel like that conviction is moving you towards the right place cuz you're testing it with reality, then as the conditioning comes in, it won't budge because you're much more aware of your capabilities and you have this system in place where you can test your intuition and you have confidence in that.
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And that's why, you know, as you get older, a lot of the time people just tend to have more conviction.
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they understand what they're doing sometimes to a fault, but there is this sense of I'm not going to really pay attention too much to what other people say.
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Um, and that building of the magnet is what I really go into in the second half, but I don't know if you have any particular thoughts or comments on that before delving into it.
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I love that metaphor and I agree entirely that the need for what is actually an illusion of certainty is the source of much suffering because it leads to fear. It leads to doubt.
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It leads to all of those things where you're looking at to to go back to we peg off other people, right?
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you're looking at, well, all my friends are going into consulting or tech or whatever.
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Uh, you know, that's probably where I need to go. Yeah.
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And then you kind of convince yourself of that because you need that certainty, right?
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I I I think that to be comfortable.
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I I I would go so far as to say that the the greatest successes in the world and not just monetarily uh the some of the greatest artists, composers, scientists fill in the blank are people who are immensely comfortable with uncertainty and in fact not just comfortable with it but play with it. Right?
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like the I the idea that you you you are certain about almost anything other than you know the old saw about death and taxes, right?
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Like I I think that that is just kind of crazy because like if you if you look if you took somebody from I don't know 1700 if you and I could jump into a time machine and go back to 1700 and rustle up the hundred smartest people or most esteemed thinkers of that era and and really go through their views.
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what we'd find is that they're probably wrong about almost everything they're saying, right?
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And and and so why do why are we different, right?
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I think the mistake that people make is, "Oh, those people from 1700, they were so idiotic and they didn't know this and this and this." We're the same.
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You know, if people traveling back 400 years to our particular time are going to be going, "Oh my god, I can't believe they actually thought this was true." Right.
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And so if you put it into that kind of continuum, you become out of necessity much more modest. Right.
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And and then kind of to tie it back with your idea of the magnet growing, right?
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And that is lived experience and things like that.
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My my feeling is very much that there's this idea a friend of my sons has this idea when when he's assessing someone he always asks are they prefall or postfall and and I was like that's intriguing to me.
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pre-fall obviously is that you know like the Mike Tyson you can be as certain as you want until the other guy punches you in the face and and and so me referring to my younger self as being a proitizer that was prefall >> and and then afterwards and you you lived through lots of experiences that at the time felt super unpleasant, right?
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and like ah, you know, kind of like the the joke meme.
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Um, uh, I I didn't do this because uh I thought it would be e I didn't do this because uh I knew it would be hard.
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I did this because I thought it would be easy and and it ain't.
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And you you get to postfall after learning those lessons, after experiencing those things, which out of necessity makes you far more modest because you got to be.
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I mean, if if you if you really want to keep going and you really want to keep getting back up after getting knocked down, you become aware of your own limitations, your own biases, your own talents, too.
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But >> you you you you definitely and and after I I heard this buddy of my sons express this I I I just couldn't get it out of my mind.
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Like when I was reading somebody I was like oh he's prefall >> prefall.
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Got to take it with a grain of salt.
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So that's an interesting delineation.
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And then one thought I had while you were speaking was that when you have a fall whether it's a particular event or a sequence of events it I think it really is when you are in uncertainty like this really strong degree of uncertainty but you interpret that as something you do not want in your life >> like like it's not a certainty that uncertainty that you welcome.
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It is something that was kind of just thrown at you.
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It it was like a tidal wave that just enveloped you and you didn't expect it.
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Uh there was like this rug pull of life and you were like just get me out of here.
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I need to get out of here.
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And the reason why we look at those fall moments with an element of grace as we get older is because you're like a lot of people are are thankful for these falls.
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Even even in that moment it was such a difficult time.
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But I think that happens because you just become a little more comfortable with uncertainty.
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Like when you know what that feels like, then you could look back at the fall and be like, "Wow, that was a pivotal moment in my life that I needed to experience."
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And the one one way I like to think about this is uh curiosity for example.
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And I realize that curiosity is ultimately being grateful that you don't know everything.
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M >> it's this gratitude for uncertainty.
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If you knew everything, there is literally no room for curiosity to emerge.
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What would you be curious about if life was truly predestined or if you knew what was going to happen based after making a decision every single time? Where is the curiosity?
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Where is the desire to learn?
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Our very desire to learn stems from the fact that the world is uncertain. I love that framing.
35:24
I think that that is bang on and it reminds me of the uh religious myth of Brahman and right Brahman perfect knowledge knows everything incredibly bored because he's like I know everything I know everything there's nothing that's going to make my day here until he gets this idea wait a minute maybe I don't know everything.
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So he creates infinite otmans which are him.
35:59
He clones himself but he takes their memory away and then he delights in the drama of all the otmans looking for you know ooh I'm very curious about this.
36:12
I don't know anything about this.
36:14
And it becomes this drama that he gets addicted to. Right.
36:18
Because you are so right.
36:18
If you think you know everything, life is going to be incredibly boring and dull. >> Yeah. It sucks. It sucks.
36:27
And I think this is why there is also this preciousness of childhood. >> Yes.
36:36
And the reason why, you know, like I I was actually reading this essay by Thomas Nagel about death and he was just he was questioning why is death bad and like what makes a life worth living and so forth and he kind of proposed this idea that life in itself has this inherent value.
37:00
There was this proposition and there's a reason for example my interpretation is like why do we congratulate people when we find out they're pregnant or when a baby is born why do we congratulate them and it it's because there is this
37:15
inherent like this beautiful uncertainty of what this child is going to become right like you don't know and the very fact that there is infinite paths but at the same time that this child will be born with infinite curios iosity. Like that is the
37:29
Like that is the starting point and that we as parents have the privilege of being able to be in a state of presence with that, right?
37:42
Like because a lot of time that that curiosity is beaten out of us or we we start to overindex uncertainty over the unknown and we want that.
37:49
But when we view children as they're growing up, like everything is a object of curiosity and that makes you feel like it just beams your face, right?
38:01
Like it's there's delight in just witnessing that and being a part of that.
38:06
Which is why it's such a beautiful stage in life and why every parent will tell you, "Hey, you got cherish this. Cherish this."
38:12
Um because this state of infinite play, everything is curious.
38:18
literally everything like this.
38:19
It's this short window of time.
38:22
Um, but there is a very clear delineation between delight and an uncertainty that you think is worthwhile to navigate.
38:31
And I think that last part is important.
38:33
In the end, the things that we'll find meaningful or purposeful or so forth, they will always have a degree of challenge.
38:40
And the goal is not to escape challenge and to find something that's the most certain because as you said, that leads to boredom.
38:47
that leads to discontent.
38:50
But what challenge do you deem worthwhile and worth your attention and time?
38:56
It's not always going to be so fun and exciting, but you feel like this is something that you've chosen and you want to dedicate your attention to it fully.
39:03
Like that's where the meaning comes from.
39:07
And there's always uncertainty that you have to accept in any endeavor that is worthwhile.
39:15
>> Again, you're preaching to the choir.
39:15
Um I wonder um so so what what what's your hope?
39:21
uh as I mentioned your book is already number one on Amazon's uh motivational self-help uh category like what would be some some great outcomes from your point of view uh from people after they've read it right and and they come to you and they're like Lawrence man thank you because I never like framed it that way I I personally think a lot of these things are framing issues, right?
39:54
Um and and and like it's very difficult to get people to want to be uncertain, I guess, is would be the way that because back to conditioning, right?
40:10
We again Bob Wilson he said uh his his early schooling years uh were basically the destruction of his innate curiosity because he was schooled by a group of nuns.
40:23
He was he was brought up in a Catholic tradition.
40:26
He was schooled by a group, he's very funny too, uh by a a group of marauding nuns who were insisting that they would uh insert the correct answer machine in my mind.
40:41
And you know, a lot of education honestly is like that.
40:44
And and in terms of the the wonder of a child, like you every artist who's worth their salt, like talks about if you can continue to look at the world through a child's eyes, you you're you're going to probably be able to do pretty well, right?
41:04
And myself, I'm I'm blessed to have six grandchildren.
41:08
And watching it, not from the parents point of view, but from the grandparents is even more exciting because like you get to see it again.
41:18
And it it it just is so beautiful watching a young child because you're right, they are pure curiosity.
41:28
And as as the parent, I remember like, oh my god, here comes the hundth and question, right?
41:39
And so when I was younger, I was 24 when our first kid was born.
41:40
And and like you you do get to the please just stop asking me questions.
41:49
But as the grandparent, it's like, no, no, no, ask me more. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
41:55
cuz the parents are going to be the one to put you to sleep and and give you the bath and everything.
42:01
I'll just I I'll take all the intellectual fun while they have the biological duties.
42:08
There's there's a funny joke that goes, uh, hey, why do grandchildren and grandparents get along so well?
42:13
And the answer is because they have a common enemy. >> I love that.
42:23
I never heard of that one. Duh.
42:26
That's that that's fascinating.
42:26
You know, one thing I remember from our conversation we had, we so we did like a not a podcast chat a while ago and you were telling me it was like when you got into investing, the reason you were so fascinated with it was because you saw it as this gigantic puzzle.
42:43
Like everything was this puzzle piece and you were just trying to see like how the how the pieces fit, how they don't fit.
42:52
pieces fit, how they don't fit. And there was not just this trial and error but this fascination with the field right and I mean it's one of those things where I think with investing for example of course there are concrete barometers of success and metrics and so forth that
43:11
could indicate that but without that innate fascination with it like if it was just purely about well it's always number go I got to do whatever I got to do to do that then I think you're missing a key ingredient for you to achieve whatever success may mean in that field, right? And I, you
43:29
And I, you know, going back to your question of what do I hope to get from this?
43:34
It's, you know, I don't really think of it as someone reads this book and then they're like, "Hey, this thing changed my life and as a result I made this big decision like I quit my job or I chose to call um someone that I had beef with and we patched things up."
43:56
Like I I don't think it's about making these gigantic leaps.
44:02
I more so think of it as like a leap to be like a series of small steps.
44:05
So by the time you take a leap, it doesn't even feel like a leap.
44:09
It just feels like the logical next step, right?
44:10
And I think for this book, it's more of getting someone to take a first step into what does it mean to do something for its own sake?
44:23
What does it mean to be like delighted by the fact that you are fascinated by something that may not have much extrinsic value?
44:37
and to engage in certain pursuits that are not necessarily tied to concrete rewards that society heralds as virtues.
44:49
And I think if someone for example were to tell me, well, I read this and as a result I started a journaling practice or um as a result I yeah I I started to uh make things in my spare time or I decided to record a conversation with a friend about something.
45:10
You know these small things.
45:12
If they if they told me that I would have been like okay I think this book did its job.
45:17
So it it really is this sense of curiosity to look inward.
45:23
We do not need many rule books for how to navigate the external world.
45:29
I feel like there's many out there in in different fields.
45:32
Um, but this really is more of igniting someone's curiosity to be like, huh, that element of self-standing sounds like a really abstract kind of woo concept like, but there actually seems to be something practical here and I feel like there's something worth navigating where it's driven purely internally and I'm okay with that.
45:57
Can I sit with that and give it a try and see what happens?
46:05
>> You know, that's one of the reasons why I uh fell in love with your work when I first encountered it because I am I hate listicles.
46:15
I hate, you know, I got I get so triggered back, I don't know, five years ago, there were always these things on Twitter and other social media like the five things a millionaire does every morning.
46:29
like the that like it just drove me absolutely mad because it was this sort of invitation to uh if you're being cynical about it, it's like all I have to do are, you know, take a cold plunge and do my whatever, have my special brand or whatever they're selling.
46:55
And what I love about you is you're not selling anything really other than, >> hey, look at what you can do when you lean in to things that you're passionate about that really just you you're you're almost obsessively curious about like if and that's why I love your answer because that's the that was would be what I would hope you would want to get out of this book.
47:22
I was delighted when you were answering that not I a single part of your answer was conditional right like it was not oh I read Lawrence's book and then I took the big plunge to you know fill in the blank um because that isn't you know like that doesn't work if if it's because that's the ultimate external authority is telling me what to do right and I like I am fiercely anti- athoritarian.
47:53
I I I do not like people telling me what to do.
48:00
I often joke that if I suddenly wake up in a super hot room whose walls are covered with 24-hour cable news and I am filling out forms, I am in hell.
48:12
I have died and I am in hell.
48:16
>> That was the word I was going to use.
48:18
Like, are you describing the inner circle like of Dante's Inferno? >> A digital inferno.
48:26
>> Yeah, a digital inferno.
48:26
And I I used to joke that uh well, I'm not certain about much, but one thing I am certain is I've already got a block of ice right next to Satan with my name on it.
48:42
Let's not, you know, let's not worry about that because I know that's going to happen.
48:47
Uh but you know the the idea that if if your work simply inspires and I think it will people to be just reframe a little right reframe away from fear reframe away from the need to be certain because that it's a chimera you know it's it's a mirage you you you can't ever with very few exceptions, right? Be 100% certain.
49:18
And I honestly think that it is the enemy to all progress, right?
49:24
Because if you're certain, Lawrence, if you and I are certain of, I don't know, a dozen things, right?
49:34
We are going to do everything we can to make certain that those dozen things stay as the rules of society or the rules of that we will live our life by or all of those things. What if we're wrong?
49:48
What if what if like back to our our time machine, right?
49:51
What what if we are absolutely wrong?
49:54
and and and it's this it's this idea that we know everything is one of the biggest roadblocks to discovery in my opinion of of all the roadblocks, right?
50:08
This premature certainty is really bad because it removes all of the other paths that might be more true that also might be better for you, for society.
50:23
if you want to be grand about it.
50:26
But but like certainty in my opinion leads not only to boredom but to stasis and stasis is death. >> Yeah.
50:38
I mean, what if we were wrong is one of those questions where if you were to reframe that, then it's such it's this immense source of growth cuz we have this bias towards, you know, being right and feeling like people are in agreement and we want that.
50:59
But that question of yeah, what if we were wrong?
51:02
we were wrong? like that that really is the propellant for anything interesting really >> totally mistakes are portals of discovery in my opinion >> and it's very difficult to discover new things if you don't make mistakes or if you're not wrong right and the way I
51:23
look at it is you know George Box had that great quote that all models are wrong some are useful and if If you if you think about it that way, it allows you to be much more flexible um in terms of you can it doesn't rob you of conviction, right? Like I've had
51:43
Like I've had this conversation with different people in different manners and and covering different topics, but it's like, well, yeah, you're so open-minded that your brain falls out. No, no.
51:55
I have very strong convictions, but I treat them as things that can be tested and that I'm always wondering, huh, maybe maybe I'm wrong. What can I learn? And how could I improve?
52:12
How could I get rid of this model, right, of looking at the world or lens, whatever term you want to use, uh, if if I can get better glasses, right?
52:24
We we all wear reality goggles and and that to me is the source of much of the misunderstandings and sorrow in the world. Right?
52:36
It it might not be that you have any animosity towards me at all, but if I'm speaking dog and you're speaking cat, like I'm going to think meow sounds a little aggressive and you're going to say you're going to think is really aggressive, right?
52:50
And and so those basic goggles that determine what we see in the world, you know, you you can go to an optometrist, i. e.
53:02
be curious, learn learn more about other things, and get a better prescription.
53:10
And yet it this kind of constant no I'm right, the need to be right again to me just specs of I don't know.
53:17
Um like a certain level of naivity that that really closes a person down.
53:30
Or am I being too hysteric?
53:30
No, I think I think you're spot on.
53:33
I think you're spot on. Um, but selfishly, I wanted to ask you a question because this this kind of provoked I I just really want to know how you contextualize this in your own life because I feel like this element of making mistakes being
53:48
this kind of gateway to discovery and um your kind of relationship with uncertainty like how have you thought about going into different projects and different things like independent of your investing career and you know like for now you have you're a publisher now
54:08
and you're doing you know and you're building AI and you're you know like doing all these different things where I'm presuming that you go into it thinking I don't know what the hell I'm doing and um and I remember last time we talked you said that two thoughts book
54:23
was going to be like your testing ground and it's going to be your guinea pig because you're like it's my name on it so I'm just going to you know like make it all the mistakes Like how how do you if there was a way you practically do that? Like is there some sort of
54:38
Like is there some sort of framework you think about where where you go into something knowing that there's a lot of mistakes to be made and you're going to accept that and maybe even be delighted by it?
54:52
Like how do you think through that?
54:55
>> Yeah, I think you did a pretty good job in framing your question and giving the answer at the same time.
55:02
um you you you frame it in just the way that your question laid out like I the these are all things that I've always been interested in that we're doing now at Oshana Ventures but you know I had a full-time job running Oshanosy asset management for years and years and that kind of precluded me be really diving in on things like publishing on things like um film making we're doing that as well.
55:32
Um, and I think that the lived experience, my lived experience was I I I learned so much in fact from my career in asset management, right?
55:44
I I wrote a piece called Mistakes Were Made in Yes by Me.
55:50
Um and the some of the things that I learned there are highly applicable here, right?
55:58
The I I often think that you can learn a ton about whatever particular domain you're entering from other domains, right?
56:08
Like I I I mentioned I'm a huge fan of Lasu and the Dao De Jing and and Dowoism and man that taught me a lot about investing that no CFA exam was going to teach me.
56:25
Um, same with history, same with uh, you know, human psychology, like to the point where like everyone in investing talks about they're looking for an edge, right?
56:35
And and I think that the only durable edge is arbitrageing human behavior, right?
56:41
So, and by that I mean like unfortunately the majority of people are still over in the I'm right and I'm certain and I would bet my bottom dollar on this and I'll die on this hill.
56:55
And you know, from my experience, I I embrace the George General uh George S.
57:01
Patent view that I'd rather the other poor dumb bastard die on his hill than die on this one that I'm not even certain about.
57:10
But so having that kind of attitude knowing going in knowing that you're going to learn, you're going to make a lot of mistakes, but that they will learn that or they will teach you is is kind of a great way to to build a living.
57:27
It's a living playbook that you're creating in real time, right?
57:34
And so you mentioned the publishing, right?
57:38
I'm writing my the first fictional book that I've ever written and it's really fun but it's really really hard and so it it kind of frames your question perfectly.
57:52
I I look at it as pure joy in trying to become a fiction writer, right?
58:02
Because I'm making all of the classic mistakes and and yet it's exhilarating, right?
58:07
like I'm literally creating a world and what I'm finding is not maybe what I expected to find.
58:14
So for example, I'm creating the world, I'm creating the over story and then I'm finding that my characters are telling me who they are rather than the other way around, right?
58:25
It's kind of like, damn, I never I never would have thought that this villain would think this way.
58:34
And yet, he's just like telling me how he thinks.
58:37
And to me, that's just so much fun.
58:40
And the same is true in making movies and and and other media projects that we're doing.
58:47
It's just kind of like exhilarating when you kind of lean into the uncertainty and and kind of sea of chaos.
58:57
Um and and then just make discoveries. >> Yeah.
59:02
I I think that's that really is the point I feel like of the book as well.
59:08
It's there is this exhilaration with uncertainty and it's more of the not just getting comfortable with it but like when it arrives to how do you lessen that impulse of it being such like this big scary thing and having this really confidence to in your ability to figure it out.
59:30
I I I feel like that that's a big thing too.
59:32
And your ability to figure something out is not just contingent upon your technical ability in something.
59:39
And I think your example with the Dow Beijing and investing is is particularly salient because when people talk about that, I remember the first time I heard something like that, it was like, wait, that doesn't make any sense.
59:51
How would how would that those two tie in together?
59:55
together? And I feel like it's like this nice blend of like the Dao De Jing for example really um giving you the framework or the understanding of nuance and that there's opposing truths on either side and then you have the the
1:00:10
quantitative intelligence that comes with investing and so forth but it's like a mix of the two right and and I feel like yes there is some technical practical abilities that you you're to cultivate in the form of a skill that will help you figure something out. But
1:00:25
will help you figure something out. But the other part of it is really this welcoming of uncertainty and that helps to act really as your compass of like how do you use all the skills that that you've developed that you've cultivated
1:00:41
right if if the skills are like the what of of your knowledge base then I feel like the compass is more of okay well how and where do you take that and and that's ultimately what understanding is you have the knowledge and the understanding and That's kind of how I delineate them as well. >> Yeah. Kind of with all thy getting >> Yeah.
1:00:59
Kind of with all thy getting understanding, right?
1:01:01
Uh because that can be a very useful guide.
1:01:04
But you know, as you were talking, I I was reminded of a conversation I had with somebody in much the same lines.
1:01:12
We weren't having we weren't using these this terminology, but it was somebody who was like timid and they they there was they got very emotional.
1:01:26
This is a long time ago when I was still that proitizing youth.
1:01:32
And they blurted out, "If I had an ounce of your self-confidence, I could do so many other things like we're talking about." >> Wow.
1:01:42
And I wonder what's your view on that?
1:01:45
Do you think that things like self-confidence etc are innate or or can they be learned? It's a great question.
1:02:00
I do feel like it can be learned but I don't think it comes from a listical.
1:02:11
Um I think by by learning it's about the desire to apply yourself.
1:02:21
I I think there there has to be this spark of wanting to do something on its own accord.
1:02:31
I really feel like low self-confidence stems from this kind of pernitious thought that I'm not going to do something because it's not going to turn out well.
1:02:46
>> And what do we mean by turning out well?
1:02:49
It's always some form of outcome.
1:02:51
Whether it's someone's reaction to what you did, uh whether it's immediate through a facial gesture or whether it's online and then nothing happened as a result of you sharing what you thought was great, like it's always I'm not going to do this thing cuz it's not going to go well.
1:03:11
And I think the pursuit of self-confidence or the the desire to kind of break out of that is well what if you remove the not going to do well from the equation?
1:03:25
What if you did something because you felt like it gave you a sense of agency and it doesn't have to be tied to a particular outcome.
1:03:36
Like you know what's funny is I thought about this like interior designers for example right it's we would consider them to be artists we would consider them to be crafts people but if you're just shuffling things around in your room and you're cleaning things like you
1:03:52
wouldn't consider that to be an act of creativity right cuz there's no real intention behind it but the fact that you called someone interior designer means that like oh because there's intention there they might be doing the same thing moving stuff around Right? But one is done with intention. One is
1:04:05
But one is done with intention.
1:04:05
One is done with, "Oh, I'm really trying to apply myself and and do things in an intentional way."
1:04:12
Same thing with us podcasting. Right?
1:04:13
Now, if I just called you on the phone and we just talked, we might not consider that a creative act, but we're sitting here, you got microphones, we're here to discuss a particular topic, and all of a sudden it becomes, oh, we're dancing in dialogue and it feels like a dance, right?
1:04:27
And I think like having that intention and doing something but taking away like is this going to become something just like it's the intention itself to want to create something to want to express a certain way just setting that and then giving it a try a little bit more and more I feel like that will build this kind of conviction and I like doing this for its own sake and then that starts building.
1:05:04
Okay, huh, I like doing this.
1:05:04
Who else can I be inspired by, right?
1:05:07
And I think I make a distinction here between you're looking at other people because you want what they have and you just and you're like, "Oh, that person's such a great writer.
1:05:20
Why would I even write if there's someone like him or her already out there producing great work?"
1:05:23
But instead, as you're discussing discussing, most of life is a framing issue.
1:05:29
So what if you were to look at them and be like, "Dang, I'm so inspired by that person because he or she writes in a way where they're doing it for its own sake."
1:05:39
Like they're doing it for themselves.
1:05:41
And I think it was Morgan Howell who said like writing for others is work and it shows.
1:05:46
Writing for yourself is fun and it shows, right?
1:05:49
And you know, I think like it's not a surprise why Morgan, for example, is someone that people look at as a source of inspiration.
1:05:58
It's like, oh, this is a person that writes according to his inner compass and at the same time like inspires so many people along the way, right?
1:06:08
So, you could take in like, all right, let me look at it from a source of inspiration.
1:06:11
People that are doing it the way that I feel like aligns with the way I want to do it. And you learn from them. You learn from them.
1:06:17
Um, and then you also notice like when it's gone astray, when you're focusing on people where you're like, wait, why am I thinking about this?
1:06:26
Like the other day I was on YouTube and listening to some um business guru who like I otherwise wouldn't be listening to because I had this thought of like, oh, I need to like really accelerate my business and all this stuff.
1:06:38
And I'm like, wait, I I'm why am I listening to this guy?
1:06:41
I would have never listened to this guy at the beginning or middle whatever of my journey.
1:06:46
But because I feel my compass being pulled away, I'm giving this person my attention.
1:06:51
So instead, let me just redirect it back to the people that I know act as model examples of even my own creative values and learn from them.
1:07:01
And when you do that, then you start developing this uh desire for mastery as opposed to trying to attain status.
1:07:08
And you know, mastery really is like you're you're doing it because you're just trying to improve yourself, right?
1:07:18
Comparisons are not made with other people but only with prior versions of yourself.
1:07:21
Like that's what mastery is.
1:07:23
And the moment you have the thought of, ooh, mastery is what I want as opposed to status and all this stuff, then that flywheel starts turning up.
1:07:33
I'm doing it on its own accord.
1:07:33
I'm learning from other people that I admire and respect and I want to get better.
1:07:40
And you have those three things and you're going to make some good stuff and you're going to learn how to communicate better.
1:07:48
You're going to learn all this stuff and it's just natural that self-confidence begins to increase with that.
1:07:57
So there is this interesting paradox where like declining the things that you feel like you need to have confidence like if you pursue status to get that then you're going to always use your own place in society to determine your selfworth right the things we want are
1:08:17
the things that we're going to use to judge oursel that's always the case so if what you want is to understand yourself better is to pursue mastery for its own sake, then that's the way that you're going to view your own endeavor and you could do it for for the long haul. >> Yeah. Again, preaching to the choir. Um >> Yeah.
1:08:34
Again, preaching to the choir.
1:08:34
Um I I I think ultimately too that creativity, curiosity, also kind of take courage, right?
1:08:45
Because you know when I when I wrote my first book I was I don't know 34 when it got published and man I got to tell you when I read the first really negative review I was stung like I was cut to the quick.
1:09:04
Um and then I kind of wondered and I journal all the time right I have like 45 years of journals.
1:09:09
I'm a big believer in writing them by hand and I don't yet have the great neurological proof why that is helpful.
1:09:17
Uh but it it it certainly is for me.
1:09:20
And so as I was like writing out like why am I reacting like this?
1:09:25
Why do I care what's some guy on Amazon who I've never heard of, who I've never met, who I have no idea what his background is or what he knows about markets or doesn't know about markets.
1:09:40
Why am I so stung by that?
1:09:40
And and it really led me to kind of an eyeopening experience of well because he's saying I'm wrong or because he's saying I'm dumb or like and like I don't like that.
1:09:57
But then I thought and I still have the journal somewhere around here like why do I care?
1:10:01
And and and I realized at that moment I really I really don't like like I would care if somebody I respected had something really critical to say about me or if somebody that I loved was, you know, incredibly critical of something that I had done.
1:10:22
But what do I care with John Q public who may have read misread the book? I don't know.
1:10:28
Like why should that affect me at all?
1:10:31
And that was kind of like a mini sator for me.
1:10:34
And it was like ever since then, like I can read the most, you know, cutting things that people have written about books that I've written or things that I've said and just laugh and it's just like it just completely bounces off.
1:10:51
But, you know, it was like I didn't even, you know, I hadn't I I hadn't had that experience in my life yet where, you know, when you're an author or you're an artist or whatever your creative venue is, when you're putting something out there, like for the first time in my case, people are people are going to differ with what you have to say. And like that's fine.
1:11:19
In fact, like one of the things that I I really believe very deeply is that if let's keep let's stay on Amazon, right?
1:11:29
I if if my book has nothing but fivestar ratings, there's some mistake, right?
1:11:38
Because if you're saying something that is really interesting in the Claude Shannon sense of is it real information, right?
1:11:48
um if it's real information, it's novel and doesn't simply repeat what everyone else already thinks or knows, right?
1:11:54
So, what you really want is in an ideal world like 4. 1 or 4. 2 stars, right?
1:12:05
Where like a lot of people are like, "This is amazing."
1:12:08
But there is a sizable cohort of people are like, "You're an idiot.
1:12:12
You're a How could you ever write something like this?"
1:12:16
And and in fact, if I don't see that, my alarm bells go off. It's like, what?
1:12:22
>> Do you do you have similar insights? >> Totally. Totally.
1:12:25
I mean, even today, I checked the book and cuz it was like five stars and then it went down to like 4.
1:12:33
9 or something and I'm like, "Ah, that's better." >> Yeah. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:12:39
And yeah, it's and it's it's it it's it's indicative of the fact that there are like you you want what you create to not be like head nodding for everybody, right?
1:12:51
Like cuz what what really is the value in that?
1:12:55
It's I think like you want to attract differing opinions about what you're what you're doing and especially if those opinions come from a uh like good-hearted place, right?
1:13:08
like there there's something I mean of course that person that left a negative review probably did not have you know your your thoughts in mind and didn't see you as a human being really is just I'm going to post this slanderous thing.
1:13:20
Um, and but yeah, there is I feel like the best kinds of work invite conversation instead of just a silent. >> Totally agree. Totally agree. >> Right.
1:13:36
Like you go somewhere, everyone's just nodding.
1:13:38
It's like, okay, well, like where's the curiosity here? Right. Um, like really.
1:13:46
And I really like what you said about journaling.
1:13:49
Um, it's interesting because the way you framed it when you got that review was, why do I care about this? Why?
1:13:58
And I advocate journaling.
1:14:03
And some of the push back I get is like, well, I don't really see the point of chronicling my life and just saying, I did this, I did that.
1:14:12
And what I realized is that most people journal as if it's a diary.
1:14:18
And there's a distinction between the two, right?
1:14:22
Like I think the diary is about the what's of life. Like what did I do? What did I feel? What did I say?
1:14:28
Whereas the journaling I feel like is more about the wise of life. Like why did I do that? Why did I feel this way? Why?
1:14:37
So, and that's where you're going to get a lot of great insights.
1:14:42
And that's where you're going to like journaling is so powerful because once you start asking why, it always comes down to some sort of condition story, >> right?
1:14:52
Um, and you peel layers when you ask why and you use words like because you start seeing the the clauses that are attached to these other narratives.
1:15:05
But if you just chronicle what you did, you're not getting that deeper exploration.
1:15:08
So I always advocate for journaling. Why?
1:15:11
That's the that's the power word here.
1:15:15
>> Perfect way to put it.
1:15:15
And back to that first letter I wrote at age 24 to my 6-day old son.
1:15:20
I in the letter say I do not want this to be a diary of you know how many times you woke us up at night or you know when you took your first step.
1:15:35
I want this to be a conversation, right?
1:15:37
Because I want you to be able to understand me as your father, but like I think I'm gonna much better understand myself, too.
1:15:46
When you know, as Pericles said, wait for the wisest of counselors time, right?
1:15:52
when when suddenly you have a 30-year history of letters, you there's a lot of self-nowledge there like, "Wow, I was really naive when I wrote that."
1:16:02
Or conversely, I still believe that, right? Um it goes both ways.
1:16:08
It doesn't have to go just to the oh look at uh you know how much I've grown.
1:16:14
It can be look at how much I've retained these same basic principles uh that that I believe deeply in.
1:16:23
I think that journaling and your way of of contrasting it with keeping a diary is bang on.
1:16:29
It's like journaling is a path of discovery and figuring out, you know, why you are the way you are or why others, right?
1:16:40
Like you could also be trying to figure out other things.
1:16:44
But I think that you know there's a great CS Lewis quote that is I don't write to make other people understand me.
1:16:53
I write to understand myself and like that is really powerful like a diary not powerful at all right like who cares who who cares about what I happen to do.
1:17:09
Can you imagine me journaling about this?
1:17:11
And it was just uh recorded podcasts with Lawrence, you know, then uh looked at movie trailers, uh bang my head against the wall cuz of the fiction writing is hard. Like what the hell? It's worth nothing. >> Yeah.
1:17:27
And it captures nothing of the essence of what was happening there.
1:17:30
And you know I think diaries are valuable in an information scarce environment which is why like for example you know we look back on like Heroditus or all these like great historians and we we really needed the chronicling of events to piece together what happened because we don't have any other information.
1:17:48
Um, but you know to say it lightly, we're a pretty informationrich society now and there is no value in the pure chronicling of events.
1:18:00
Like we have enough of that.
1:18:00
The the value really is the the discovery element and understanding what's happening within you and trying to tie that in with the greater world.
1:18:11
And yeah, that quote about CS Lewis hits and like the way I think about it is that writing is it reminds me that a wiser version of of myself is available when I need that person the most.
1:18:26
>> So that's I love that. I'm stealing that. >> Yeah, please do.
1:18:30
I mean I I sometimes look back and um like I've I'll be like, "Oh, I'm struggling with self-doubt."
1:18:38
And then I think, "Oh, wait.
1:18:38
I wrote this like 3,000word piece on self-doubt years ago when I felt like I had a little bit more clarity around that time or I was struggling with it deeply.
1:18:49
So, I wrote about it and then I'll read it and be like, "Oh, I'm capable of thinking that." >> Yeah, it's great.
1:18:57
In fact, one of the apps that we're developing through our AI lab and we'll probably commercialize at some point is exactly that tool.
1:19:05
It takes people who are writers and we dump everything they've ever written into there.
1:19:13
They can control what goes in and what doesn't go in.
1:19:16
But we feel the greatest value is if they say, "Yep, here's everything I've ever written. It's private. It's just for them."
1:19:22
Uh so when think of it as kind of like a Google uh extension uh as you're writing self-doubt like up comes a knowledge graph and you see all of the other times you wrote about self-doubt and it's pretty cool when we've we've been testing it with some good friends of ours who are writers and they're like holy this is like amazing cuz I completely forgot that I wrote wrote about that extensively because you know that was like nine years ago. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:20:00
I was like give me that talking about it.
1:20:02
Give me that cuz so far it's just like putting stuff in the chat GPT and Claude but there is yeah there is no um and also just like the responses aren't that really great when I ask you to reference other writing but having an actual graph there and seeing like that's that's pretty nuts. >> Yeah. And it's your own work.
1:20:21
That's what's really kind of cool about it.
1:20:26
Now, we're we're having internal debates about like, do you want do do you want to do you want the AI to model who your nearest neighbors in writers are? Do you want to do that? Yes or no?
1:20:39
>> And the way we're trying to solve for all of this is like no, the we'll let that stuff evolve.
1:20:44
And like if enough if we do commercialize this, if enough of the writers are like, "Hey, you know, it' be really great if I could do this."
1:20:54
One thing that I've learned in developing a lot of different products or services over my career is the things you think are going to sing are the things that actually sink.
1:21:04
And the the the the best way to build is to get a group that you trust.
1:21:11
Like for example, I would include you in this group and so if we are ever gonna really go towards commercial commercialization of this, you'll definitely be hearing from me.
1:21:21
Uh but then but then listen to you because for example in a completely different sphere when we developed uh the canvas uh portfolio customization software uh that ultimately is why we sold OSAM because the bigger company wanted that.
1:21:43
One of the things we did was we worked with a very tight group of advisors and took their feedback and we all ahead of time had what we thought were going to be the 10 things that were the features of it's called canvas of the canvas program that people would like.
1:22:00
We were completely wrong and it was back from the adviserss giving us feedback.
1:22:06
is like, "Oh they the thing that really gets them going is the ability to tax uh manage accounts."
1:22:13
Well, that's really boring.
1:22:17
But like you got to listen to what people are finding the most useful.
1:22:22
And so as we develop the writing thing, it'll be you telling us like, "Hey, it would be really cool.
1:22:28
I love the knowledge graphs.
1:22:31
I love to be able to see and you know the the bubbles of networks that connect with each other.
1:22:37
how often I link this and this, but maybe you could also make it do that.
1:22:41
We found, at least in my own experience, that's the kind of thing that really ends up singing for the person you're developing it for. >> Yeah.
1:22:52
Well, I'm looking forward to checking that out. That sounds really cool.
1:22:55
And just everything you described there was also the example of your you think your intuition is taking you somewhere and then you put it you test it.
1:23:04
you test it and then like that's why relationship is a fundamental component of understanding yourself too.
1:23:08
It's not just you're in a cave and you're meditating.
1:23:12
It's really about how you interact with others and totally and and then be open to what comes in as well and like as a result you get some great stuff that people also find useful that started with this intuitive thought. >> Could not agree more.
1:23:26
Now, we're gonna go with the final question that we ask everyone, and that is, Lawrence, we're making you the emperor of the world just for a day, and you can't kill anyone.
1:23:39
You can't put anyone in a re-education camp.
1:23:42
But what you can do is we're going to hand you a magical microphone, and you can say two things into it that will incept the entire population of the earth.
1:23:52
whenever their morning is, they're going to wake up and think, I just had two of the greatest ideas.
1:23:57
And unlike all the other times, I'm actually going to take action against both of these ideas today and forever more.
1:24:05
What two things are you going to incept in the world's population?
1:24:15
The first thing is try to do something for its own sake today.
1:24:23
And the second is try to see some try to see people for who they are and not for what they have to offer.
1:24:32
Oh, I love both of those.
1:24:36
Those are Wow, I'm I like those.
1:24:36
You You might have just incepted me.
1:24:41
Um, this has been tremendous fun.
1:24:44
I always love talking to you.
1:24:47
It's always a great conversation.
1:24:49
I wish you the greatest success with the book.
1:24:51
It's available everywhere. >> Yes.
1:24:55
Uh it's available on Amazon, so that's the place to go.
1:24:58
>> Well, that's where 80% of books get sold. So, >> yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see.
1:25:03
Uh I I think we're going to I'm experimenting with like enabling other levels of distribution, but um as of now, it's on Amazon. >> Cool.
1:25:13
Lawrence, thank you so much.
1:25:13
Best of luck with the book.
1:25:16
I think it's brilliant and I think everyone should buy a copy. >> Thanks so much, Jim.
1:25:21
As you said, our combos go really fast cuz I enjoy every second.
1:25:25
So, appreciate you again for having me.