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The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty.
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The one, the only, Jay Shetty.
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Lemon, welcome to On Purpose.
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So grateful to have you here.
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I've looked forward to sitting with you for a long, long time.
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And so, I really appreciate your space and your energy and for you being here.
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And I want to start off by asking you, what childhood memory do you have that you feel has defined the person that you are today or most defines the person you are today? There's a few.
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There's a traumatic one that I don't like to talk about that happened when I was 2 years old that was deeply traumatic that certainly shaped a lot of the trauma of my childhood, a lot of the shame-based parts of my childhood.
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Um my first interactions with children, other children, when I was in sort of preschool, when I was probably 5 years old, when I was bullied and called the F-word and a and the kids that I acted like a girl.
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I often say the irony of my life is when I was a child um the kids called me a girl and as an adult people call me a man.
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That I have transitioned and accepted my womanhood. That's interesting.
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So it's interesting thinking that like other people told me I was a girl before I sort of fully was able to accept or reckon with it and it wasn't a good positive thing, you know, right?
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It because I was assigned male at birth as a trans person.
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Being called a girl was was sort of a bad thing in the eyes of the other children.
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So that that's an early memory in terms of interacting with other kids and then dancing.
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I am doing back in the day.
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I think there I don't know if there's still physical education in schools, but I'm 51 years old and we had PE physical education and during free play while the other kids were sort of playing sports.
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I was off to the side dancing by myself with music in my head I would sort of have characters that I would kind of portray through movement and I'd be imitating what I saw on television from Solid Gold.
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If for those people who are my age who know Solid Gold was this show in the 80s it was a countdown show that counted down the top hits of the week and they had Solid Gold dancers.
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dancers. And there was this beautiful black woman named Darcel Wynn who was the lead Solid Gold dancer and she had long hair through down to her knees and she was so sexy and so vivacious and so I was sort of pretending to be Darcel as I danced in PE and free play and then church and and speaking in church almost
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every Sunday my mother reminds me that I would summarize the Sunday school lesson every Sunday and children's day was like the fourth Sunday of every month and I was always sort of getting up and making speeches in church and even though I'm not a religious person now I'm very spiritual church was this performance opportunity. The religious
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The religious part of it wasn't affirming.
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It was very shaming, but the performance part of it was very affirming.
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Being um told that I was a good speaker and that I was smart was something that dancing and starting to study dance in third grade and doing talent shows and then being considered a smart kid um who spoke well became my identity in terms of how I saw myself. Mhm.
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At in addition to that identity that was sort of placed on me.
4:24
That was um from the other kids and from my teachers, the bullied identity, the the freak, the the F word, the queer, all those identities that were stigmatized were sort of placed on me, but I also um won talent shows and was a good speaker and there was this one moment in um seventh grade.
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I know you asked for one childhood memory, I love this.
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This is beautiful, by the way.
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There was this one moment in seventh grade um where I ran for vice president of the student council and and I remember sort of doing the campaign and made little flyers and stuff and like not I was this very by middle school I was dressing myself with things from the Salvation Army and they were it was not quite gender non-conforming yet, but it was going more in an androgenous direction and I was kind of this know-it-all kid.
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I was like, you know, raising my hand you know, to be the first one to answer questions in class.
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It's very annoying and I was you know, chased home from school every day by kids who wanted to beat me up and called it you know, this is the F word, bullied cuz I was very fem fem, but when the year that I ran for student council president, we all got to make speeches and right after the speeches, the kids voted and I I the beginning of my speech was quality is my principle and qualified is my attitude.
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I don't know what I said after that.
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And I just remember the kids being like and they voted for me and I became vice president in the student council.
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So this kid that like no one liked who they made fun of, there was something about me speaking in this moment with this confidence and this sense of something. I don't know.
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Maybe I was speaking in church every Sunday that they voted for me and that was a really wonderful moment of um screw you to the kids.
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It's like they voted for me but like I was also like this kid that everyone made fun of and didn't like.
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So there was, you know, in looking back and I I've talked to very few people from middle school but like I think even though they all sort of made fun of me, there was an acknowledgement that there was talent and there was intelligence there and how wonderful as traumatizing as my childhood was to have create a sense of self.
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It It you know, reading drama of the gifted child, I understand that, you know, in retrospect my identity became about accomplishment and not who I was authentically but how wonderful to be a kid who valued education because of my mother who was a teacher and had this identity that was attached to accomplishments and intelligence and talent. That's a lovely thing.
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Um particularly as I you know, as a woman in the world where so often now as now a 51-year-old woman thinking about aging and who's an actress in Hollywood and so much of being a woman is about how we look and so much of how I grew up was about my talent and intelligence and not that and that's a beautiful thing. Mhm.
7:40
That's a really really beautiful thing to have those things be valued and associated with who you are.
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associated with who you are. And so, as I, you know, sort of go into the world and do a lot of different things, knowing that I'm talented, knowing that I'm smart, and that because of all that training in church and and doing public
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speaking competitions and, you know, valuing the education and still being just a student of so many different things that I can lead with those things and I and that that those are the reasons why I've, you know, gotten to where I am, I think, you know, on God's time, not my time. I
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I thought it should have happened, you know, 25 years ago, but it didn't happen till I was 40.
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But, it did happen right on time and when there was a sense of purpose attached to it and that there was something to say.
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And so, that is my another intention of today is to try to have say things in a way that, um, people can hear.
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I've been grappling a lot with how sort of anti-intellectual our world is.
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There's so many divides in this culture right now around, you know, liberal and conservative and all that stuff, but it's really one of the big ones is people who've gone to college and who haven't and how they vote, you know, I think most non-college educated people vote for the Republican Party.
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And then, I'm an actress, but I talk in a way, you know, I'm an intersectional feminist and I, you know, read bell hooks and I just did a podcast episode dedicated to her and I use phrases that I can peer this white supremacist capitalist patriarchy to evoke bell hooks's work.
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So, I talk in this way that's like it that's not always accessible.
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So, I I want to to meet be able to meet people where they are, but I don't want to dumb myself down, either.
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But, I'm just aware of the elitism tied to certain kinds of ways of speaking and certain kinds of education.
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And but, I also am aware that language sometimes to be exacting with language we have to use words like patriarchy and white supremacy and and heteronormativity, you know, to really sort of talk about what's going on or trauma resilience.
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So sometimes to really be precise with language and exacting with language, you might come across as a little bit elitist and so I sort of been grappling with that too just as someone now who has been a working-class person until I was like in my 40s and then now, you know, have some class privilege.
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So just grappling with privilege.
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I'm constantly sort of grappling and questioning myself and my positionality and trying to not be this out of touch um Hollywood actress.
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Thank you for connecting the dots for us.
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I could see how the experiences you were ex- having back then you can kind of draw that line and I could see you kind of connecting the dots in your own mind to where you are today and I love that you present your experiences so much more of a paradox than a dichotomy as opposed to clarity because I think that clarity comes from the questioning and the curiosity that you have about your own experience.
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Earlier you used the term you said you're learning to re-parent your inner child. Yes.
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And you could hear that in the way you were describing the journey so far.
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What are parts of yourself that you think you've spent the most time re-parenting or what does that look like?
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Well, so much of it is about how I frame my story.
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I'm a Brene Brown stan/scholar and when we disown our stories we're defined by them and when we when we own our stories we can write a brave new ending and so much of and actually interestingly enough on the podcast I was just watching one of your earlier podcast when you had Oprah on talking about what happened to me and so much of the way I for many years I had been in denial about all my childhood trauma.
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Like I was in denial about the bullying and the the straight up violence I experienced as a child, as a gender non-conforming child.
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And so I needed to for many years to talk about that.
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I needed to reckon with that and just acknowledge that it happened and feel the pain of that that there was no tools to experience as a child.
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And then so I sort of went from that, you know, the what happened to me.
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Well, actually I went I was in what's wrong with me and then I went to what happened to me.
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And then I now I'm in a space of like what's right with me, you know, and and what happened that wasn't just traumatic but was affirming and that were resources and the things that sort of helped me get through.
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I've been um working with an amazing therapist named Jennifer Burden Flyer who I interviewed on my podcast twice um in the first season.
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And we do somatic work that is based in um the Community Resiliency Model from the based on the Trauma Research Institute. Do you know this work?
12:27
I've heard I'm familiar with the work.
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Um but but the Trauma Research Institute um came up with this thing called CRM or the Community Resiliency Model that is sort of based in resilience and it's somatic work so it's all about sensing into your body and there's six tools of that.
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And so we've been I've been working with my therapist on sort of refiring and rewiring to what sort of the way Dr.
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Joy DeGruy spends it talks about it and creating new neurotransmitters in my nervous system and and deepening my resilience zone.
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So there were things in my childhood got me through my childhood, the dancing.
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And so we yes, so acknowledge that there was abuse and that there was bullying and violence in my childhood but there were also things that got me through my life, art and dancing and reading and performing.
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And those things continue to get me through.
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So it's it becomes it's a both and.
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One of the tools of um CRM or the Community Resiliency Model is shift and stay.
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And it's all about sensing into your body and shift and stay is is about like I would go into a therapy session with Jennifer and she would say, you know, how you feeling today?
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And I'm like, oh, I'm a little anxious.
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And she'll ask me, where do you feel that in your body?
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And often my anxiety sort of happens in my in my stomach.
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I'm feeling a little bit of that now, I think just cuz of being in a podcast.
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And then she Jennifer will invite me, you know, is there somewhere in your body where it feels neutral or positive?
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And right now it's my ankle.
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So and she'll invite me to breathe into that and focus my attention instead of where it's anxious, but to focus my attention on where it's neutral and positive.
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So I'm focusing it on my ankle right now.
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And then we just kind of focus the energy there.
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And invariably if I can focus my energy in my body where it's neutral or positive, sometimes eventually that anxiety will dissipate.
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Maybe not completely, but it'll dissipate a little bit.
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And it's about that's really about living in the both and in our bodies.
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And it's a reminder that we become sort of what we focus on, too.
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Literally in a somatic way, literally in our bodies, but I think in a in a sort of more global sense as well.
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We become the thing that we focus on.
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So and the tricky thing for me is in me my attempts to do both and I do the and without the both and.
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Meaning I focus on the resilience, I focus on the neutral and the positive and I I'm in a little bit of denial of the of the challenge, of the anxiety, of the difficult thing that's going on in my body.
15:00
And so I have to be able to acknowledge that part, too.
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And and not just be in the resilience because then there's a bit of denial there.
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And so and I'm not in the full truth of what's going on in my body, what's going on with me in a moment.
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So being able to like say the anxiety is here.
15:15
Maybe that it's attached to a story, maybe it's not.
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Sometimes it's just a feeling, sometimes they're not necessarily attached to a story. Often it is or thought. And then go to the end.
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Go to that neutral or positive place, the resilient place, the thing that brings me joy, but making sure that I don't skip the difficulty that might be going on, too.
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The and be slipping into denial a little bit.
15:40
And in effort to just sort of be positive all the time.
15:44
Cuz that's just not real. Absolutely.
15:46
And thank you so much for sharing that tool and technique.
15:47
I'm sure everyone who's listening is going to try and practice that in their own way.
15:52
What is amazing, last thing I'll say about CRM or the community resilience model, it's these there are six tools.
15:56
There's an app called I Chill, which breaks down the six tools.
15:58
And it's And it was devised by the Trauma Resource Institute for people who might be, you know, coming from veterans or police officers, people who are coming from very traumatic experiences that you can take into your community and share.
16:13
Tools that are very accessible.
16:13
Doing it is not easy, but they're accessible tools.
16:17
Shift and Stay is one of them.
16:19
Resource same was another one I mentioned. Gesturing is another. Tracking is it's huge.
16:23
You have to track what's going on in your body. Help Now.
16:27
So these are skills that are very accessible and that people can teach to each other. The practice of it.
16:32
Slow For me, the biggest piece is slowing myself down to actually track what's going on in my body.
16:37
And we we all know that book The Body Keeps the Score.
16:41
And so no matter what is going on intellectually and all the work, you know, I've been in therapy for 23 years now, that it has to land in the body.
16:52
It has to be work that it has to be somatic.
16:57
It has to be because because our bodies 80% of our information comes from the body to the head and 20% from the head to the body, right?
17:05
And so no matter how intellectual we are, no matter how much we want to talk it through and understand it, our bodies have to if there's trauma, if there's stress, our bodies have to know it differently.
17:18
Our bodies have to understand what a healthy connection or healthy attachment is.
17:26
I have to know it in my nervous system.
17:30
There's this knowing and then there's like this knowing.
17:34
Because of that thing, I mean you've talked about it on your podcast, but so much happens in our lives preverbal, between the ages of 1 and 3, 1 and 5, before we even have language.
17:45
So many things will happen to us that we don't have words for that our nervous systems are tracking in those moments.
17:54
And so the work of reparenting, the work of resetting the nervous system, of deepening our resilience zone, it's about that that somatic, that preverbal, that almost so so the pre not that even the prefrontal cortex, but that limbic brain, that that piece that's like the that reprogramming that fight, flight, or freeze.
18:13
Um so that we really deepen our resilience zone.
18:18
Anyway, I could talk about this all day. No, no.
18:20
It genuinely it's it's so helpful and so insightful and I and I know our community is going to love this so far, but I want to go back to your comment and you mentioned a few times on how we like to deny certain experiences and uncomfortable things and difficult things.
18:35
And I know that for a fact I've done that so much in my life physically as well.
18:39
It's so easy to deny a physical pain thinking it's nothing.
18:43
And emotional pain sometimes even easier to do it with, but why is denial so unhealthy?
18:48
And what parts of yourself do you still find you may deny sometimes?
18:56
Denial is unhealthy because and when we're not living in the truth with for ourselves, and there's this line I think from Magnolia, you think you may be done with the past, but the past isn't done with you.
19:08
That like even when I'm in denial, there's still the stuff is still operating in my life. I'm Nadine Burke Harris.
19:15
Um just has has a beautiful TED Talk where she talks about adverse childhood experiences, and there's this wonderful research about adversity in childhood and how excess doses of adversity is the way she sort of puts it in childhood can lead to physical literal like, you know, sort of asthma, diabetes, all these health outcomes in children and then later in life.
19:38
So, that when we don't deal with things psychologically and emotional things, they show up in our bodies in unhealthy ways.
19:45
All of these other different things.
19:47
And so, when we're in denial about a trauma we've experienced or something that is difficult for us, that is happening in our bodies.
19:54
And if we don't acknowledge it and release it, it has to go it has to move through and out of the body, it can be deadly. Stress can be deadly.
20:02
And And my therapist likes to talk about when we talk about trauma resilience, but then there's different kinds of trauma and different levels and and distressers, right?
20:12
Stressers can like bump us out of There's an idea of the the resilience zone.
20:16
She sort of likes to encourage us to imagine like these two lines and that our resilience zone sort of goes in waves between these two lines.
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And then this there's low zone, which is like She likes to think of it as a house and our resilience zone is the ground floor.
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Low zone would be the basement and high zone would be the attic.
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And high zone is when we're in that fight, flight, or freeze and we're anxious and we're stressed and we're just like And then low zone would be this kind of like depressed.
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I don't want to get out of bed.
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Maybe I'm suicidal or I'm just like listless.
20:44
And so, we want to have Deepening our resilience zone is about being able to go into lows and highs and be in our and have emotions, but not be bumped into that high space or bumped into that low zone.
20:56
And so, if we are constantly in that high zone, and I've been constantly in that fight, flight, or freeze, I learned that really early that I didn't feel safe and not nowhere was safe.
21:07
And so, I was constantly releasing adrenaline, cortisol.
21:09
That constant release of adrenaline and cortisol over 40 years, we're not hardwired for that.
21:19
Biologically, we're supposed to like, you know, we see the bear in the woods, we release the adrenaline cortisol to fight that bear to flee that bear, and then we go back to homeostasis.
21:26
If we're constantly If we come What if And then Bear Harris says, "What if the bear comes home every night?" Mhm.
21:33
We're constantly releasing that adrenaline and then our We're just depleted after a while.
21:37
And years of this depletion.
21:42
And I And so, I've In my 40s, I was like, "Why am I so tired? Why am I so depleted?"
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It's just all con- that constant survival, not ever feeling safe.
21:51
And so, trying to find so much of like deepening my resilience zone is creating safety.
21:56
And if you are a trauma survivor, so much of the um For trauma survivors, we often take um This is from my therapist.
22:06
We take an a an alarm bell and turn it into a dinner bell. Mhm.
22:11
Because things have been wired in such a way in a dysfunctional way that everything becomes an alarm. Everything.
22:19
And so, And so, that's so much of our work when we think when we think about folks who are "I'm triggered by this.
22:25
This is triggering for me."
22:25
And it could very well be, but our work individually if the external thing can be triggering, but my work individually is like, "Is this about what's actually going on, or is this about my history?"
22:39
When it's hysterical, it's historical.
22:44
When it's hysterical, it's historical.
22:45
When I remind myself of this, when LaVern is hysterical, it's probably not about what's going on in this moment.
22:52
Like, I had a moment with my boyfriend a few months ago.
22:55
And we've been You know, we've been dating for like 3 years, and it's been lovely. It's been wonderful.
22:59
And I had this moment when I went into this shame spiral during a conversation we were having.
23:03
Just went into this crazy and I was like it was the first time with him. I felt so safe with him.
23:09
It's the first time with him and I was like and it just like I was like I felt myself just going into this crazy and I was talking a lot and I was spiraling and I was just like babe let me I need to go to the bathroom and get myself together.
23:22
He was like, "What's going?"
23:23
And I sat there and I was like luckily cuz I've done my shame work I was like, "Okay, you're in a shame spiral.
23:31
You are in a shame spiral and we can actually if we can name shame."
23:33
I was like, "This is not about this incredible man who's so amazing to me.
23:37
This isn't about anything he said.
23:38
This is about my own story that I just spun myself out with. So it's historical.
23:43
It's not about this moment.
23:45
So this is about some historical stuff.
23:51
You know, so I just had I just I think I was in the bathroom like 30 minutes maybe 40 minutes just kind of like talking to myself, breathing, and just being and I really take be and and in the moment this is not a dangerous moment.
24:04
I created something historical, something historical came up for me, but this is safe.
24:08
And the only way I was able to do that is like I've had like 3 years of safety with this man.
24:13
So I'm like this man is incredible.
24:15
So like if you know, maybe early on I'd be like this man is not safe.
24:20
And I you know, when a man doesn't feel safe to me or when people don't feel safe I'm like I'm out.
24:26
I've learned very very very quickly to get out.
24:29
Um and so I very got become very good at like identifying what safe space is and like so this is not girl, you're just spinning out with something some historical stuff some childhood stuff some old stuff just came out for you.
24:40
And so when it once I was able to do that and regulate then I was able to go out and say, "Babe, I went into a shame spiral. It's not about you. It is what it is."
24:54
And he just like held me, and and I cried, and And what's interesting to me, what I've learned on I'm sure you this is an experience that you have interviewing so many brilliant people.
25:09
I've had so many brilliant people on my podcast, and so I think about that moment through a shame lens, right?
25:15
There's this We can talk about a shame spiral.
25:17
We can talk about it through a trauma resilience piece around regulating my nervous system.
25:24
It's also a attachment piece, attachment theory piece, where there's healthy attachment with him.
25:28
Um so this just all these different lenses that I was able to kind of filter that moment through.
25:35
That was that kind of kept that brought me back to the present and brought me into my a resilient space, where I wasn't spinning out. And it was deep.
25:46
And so like reckoning with the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves, it just a thought can spin us out, right?
25:54
Just a thought can disrupt my nervous system.
26:01
That's not It's a thought I Maybe it's a comment I've seen on the internet.
26:02
It's a thought I could have about myself that's like, "Oh, you're a piece of Oh, you're a horrible person."
26:09
That could just spin me out.
26:09
And just like becoming aware of those thoughts, and then, you know, is this thought useful? I can let this go. This isn't the truth.
26:17
Can I reality check this thought?
26:19
Or maybe just letting go of all thoughts.
26:21
You know, there's the there's um in some of my meditation I do transcendental meditation, too.
26:26
Sometimes it's about trying.
26:31
Trying imperfectly to let go of all thoughts and just be just be.
26:35
Letting go of stories, letting go of thoughts.
26:37
In absence of um data, we create stories.
26:39
As human beings, we're hardwired for story.
26:41
But trying to let go of story, trying to let go of thoughts and just be is so hard.
26:46
And but I have those moments when it's just like you know, and I'm like, "Am I an airhead?
26:53
You know, am I being an airhead right now and just like letting go of thoughts and just like uh You know, sometimes I think like people you know, I don't want like I don't want to be judgmental, but sometimes people who are not like intense thinkers, they just kind of like chill.
27:06
Sometimes I like envy those people cuz they're not like thinking about like the socio-political implications and then the sort of therapeutic and somatic implications and then the attachment theory implications and then the intersectional feminism.
27:21
Like there's all this stuff going on all the time and then I'm an artist and then like, you know, my humanity is in as an artist and like having empathy for the character and analyzing human behavior just just a lot going on in there.
27:32
And so sometimes it's just I envy people who just they there's not a lot going on up there and they can just kind of, you know, Yeah. Let go of the thoughts.
27:42
Stressing about being healthy.
27:42
Stressing about being healthy. Oh my god, especially especially as a 51-year-old because it's not just mental and psychological health now, it's like I'm getting older and there's the question of mobility and I have such a problem consistently working out, but I want to stay mobile and I
27:57
want to stay looking lovely, you know, and the aging piece, being 51 years old and like my mom is 70 just turned 73 this year and then watching her and thinking about getting older and my job, you know, and I feel like my in so many ways my career is just getting started and we're on strike and this just It's scary aging Mhm. as a woman as a woman in Hollywood.
28:26
And I think what's beautiful about being trans is that like, you know, I I the public has been very as transphobic as people are, the transphobia of some people in the public um has helped keep me right-sized around my appearance.
28:37
Cuz sometimes I'm like, oh Laverne, you look cute.
28:41
Laverne, you're sexy, you know.
28:43
Oh, you look pretty good for 51 and then like, you know, I'll read a comment and it's like some she looks like a man, you know.
28:52
And luckily I can laugh about that.
28:54
Luckily I think it's I, you know, I think it's ridiculous and I understand people are transphobic, but it keeps things in perspective.
29:00
But I also would be delusional and not in the truth if I didn't acknowledge that I'm not just I've not just been on multiple magazine covers because I'm smart and talented.
29:11
That there is I there is a desirability politics that goes into being an actress on screen in Hollywood and and doing a lot of the on camera work that I do and aging in that environment is scary as a woman in an ageist business and an ageist culture and and the connection between misogyny and aging and then being a black woman and a trans woman.
29:39
And so all of that is like happening to. Mhm.
29:41
It's so funny I was thinking about this.
29:44
I, you know, I I haven't done like the Botox or the fillers or anything to my face, but obviously as a trans woman I'm not opposed to surgery, but I'm terrified to do anything to my face.
29:53
And I and I there may be a point when I need to or need to.
29:57
And I don't and it's funny I'm like comfortable talking about not having done it now, but I'm like once I do it I probably won't want to talk about it.
30:08
So there's also that in the spirit of transparency of that and I don't talk about as a trans woman I don't talk about surgery in terms of in relationship to me because so often that's a way to dehumanize trans people and reduce us to our bodies.
30:20
Um, but it's just something, you know, that I'm grappling with around aging and being a woman.
30:28
And so those are other stories and other, you know, thoughts that I spend way too much time thinking about.
30:37
Particularly maybe because I'm on strike we're on strike and I have a little more time. I don't know.
30:43
I was going to say that I I actually find it remarkably uh comforting to hear someone open up and tell me the genuine, real, honest thoughts that they're having because I think all of us are actually having those in our own world, in our own universe, whether you're an actress in Hollywood or whether you're someone who's dropping your kids to school or whether you're me or whoever you are.
31:07
Like, I think all of us have a kind of interesting tapestry.
31:12
You've lived so many chapters of your life.
31:15
If this chapter had a title right now, what would it be called?
31:20
51 fabulous and anxious as hell.
31:24
That's That sounds like a great chapter.
31:28
It's a fun chapter to read. I don't know.
31:29
It's fun to live, too, I guess. It is what it is.
31:31
And I It's It's you know, I I interviewed um Glennon Doyle for the first She's so amazing.
31:39
And one of the what I love about her, what I love about Brené Brown, is that like we so much in in in the wellness space, we hear about sort of how people are the sort of the result of the struggle and not the struggle. And I agree.
31:54
I I need to sort of be with people in the struggle.
31:58
I need to like understand what folks are cuz that's what I can connect with.
32:04
People who have it all together, I don't relate to that.
32:08
And as much as people may think I have it all together, and I girl, I am an girl listening to neutral.
32:18
And in this case, girl, I like compared to 10 years ago, compared to 15 years ago, Laverne has grown.
32:22
I've done so much work on myself.
32:25
The just being able to be in an intimate relationship and tolerate it and like tolerate the vulnerability and the uncomfortable things, like there's been so much growth.
32:37
So, yeah, I'm so much more evolved than I was 10 years ago, 15 years ago, certainly 20 years ago.
32:43
But, it doesn't mean that I'm not still struggling with things.
32:46
That like, the world, I mean, honestly, just being just being a trans person in 2023 is I mean, I could I could cry.
32:56
And I love being trans, but there's an attack on my community legislatively and rhetorically that it's having real-world consequences on on on people who I know and love.
33:11
There are families fleeing states right now, which is insane to me because of the laws that criminalize parents who, you know, support their trans kids, criminalize doctors and health care professionals.
33:21
And that's not unrelated to the, you know, people who need to flee states because of abortion restrictions.
33:26
And being a public figure who too who's trans, who's, you know, you know, I was on the cover of Time magazine nine years ago and with with the headline the transgender tipping point.
33:38
And there was a sense that there was so much progress being made around trans visibility and trans acceptance.
33:47
And that certainly, speaking of both and that certainly is happening and has happened in a lot of ways, but we inevitably, when there is a social justice movement where people sort of come forth and there's more acceptance, there's inevitably backlash.
34:02
And we are like eyebrows deep in the backlash right now on a legislative level.
34:09
20 states right now have banned gender-affirming care for young people.
34:13
This year alone over 500 pieces of legislation have been introduced in state legislatures all over the country targeting the LGBTQ community at large, mostly trans people, mostly drag artists. It's it's insane.
34:28
And it's supported by I'm that is so sort of um siloed, you know, right?
34:35
Where where people can just like get this confirmation bias that it that stick deeply stigmatizes trans people and LGBTQ+ people in general and don't hear from real trans people and don't get our human stories and our beautiful humanity. And it's scary.
34:53
A dear friend of mine, um Chase Strangio, who works for the ACLU, is they they're fighting all these things in the courts right now.
34:59
They're on Friday, he was arguing two different appeals for two different states where they've banned gender-affirming care in Tennessee and I think Oklahoma.
35:05
It's just a scary time when the when the government when the state is targeting your ability and for years they were sort of saying that this is about children.
35:14
It's about protecting children.
35:16
And, you know, earlier this year a state, I think it was Oklahoma, passed a law that would prevent gender-affirming care up to the age of 26.
35:22
My home state of Alabama, I'm from Mobile, Alabama, banned gender-affirming care up to the age of 19.
35:26
You know, there's other states that, you know, so it's not it's never really been about the children, right?
35:31
It's always been about doing what The Daily Wire's Michael Knowles proclaimed at CPAC, erasing transgenderism from public life.
35:40
That has always been the project.
35:40
And to hear that state it so emphatically and then seeing it play out on on a state in the various states is scary. It's really scary.
35:53
And so there's that piece of like how do we as as as trans folks just like our mental health, how do we sort of deal with that?
36:00
And so but it's been crucial for me as a public figure, but also just as a person who loves trans people and a person who's been just terrified by all of this, just like how do like understanding that the narrative about who we are has been hijacked.
36:19
And there's a deep propagandistic misinformation campaign that is going on around our identities that is leading to legislation that seeks to erase us from public life, but there is a reality of our lives.
36:33
There's a reality of our existence.
36:35
There's a reality of our beauty and our talent and our anointedness that I'm amazed by.
36:42
I'm so blessed to have a group of trans people in my life who I marvel at.
36:50
I was I was um in LA like um in in July and we were doing something with Hard Ness Foundation about the relationship between reproductive rights and gender affirming care.
37:00
It's interesting but not ironic that as access to gender affirming care and bodily autonomy for trans people is being taken away, bodily autonomy for people who can get pregnant is also being taken away on on the state level on state levels all over this country.
37:13
all over this country. And then a dear friend of mine, Peppermint, we were hanging out afterwards and she we were talking and she was telling me about this situation she was dealing with with a man and I was just I was she was telling me about this and I was looking
37:25
I was I'd watched her at this event that we were at and I was just I was just marveling at how smart, how charismatic, how resilient, how incredible she is as a human being and all of the she was dealing with from this man and I was just like I was like, "Do you know how beautiful you are? Do you know how amazing and
37:44
Do you know how amazing and talented and just what a light you are just because of who you are and that you're I just am so honored that you're my friend and you happen to be trans and your transness is part of why you're such a light, you know?
38:01
And I just have trans people in my life who are lights like that, who are just epic and beautiful and amazing.
38:10
And then there's this like these narratives about who we are and I just would love for people to get to know us and get to see what I see when I see trans people, and so that's what um I have to hold on to, our humanity, our beautiful humanity, and shout it from the rooftops, and then surround myself, continually surround myself with the beautiful trans people in my life who I just who are anointed, you know?
38:37
I I always like to remind people that in indigenous cultures all over the world, trans people were considered spiritual creatures who spiritual leaders in in India, they they Hijra, you know, pre-colonialism where you know, folks wouldn't get married or have a christening without the presence of a Hijra.
38:57
And and they understood that if if they got a blessing, their child got a blessing from the Hijra that their that they their child would be okay, be better.
39:06
We have two-spirit people here in the in Native communities here in the United States, the Mahu in Hawaii, and in the Philippines, there there all indigenous cultures all over the world, they were third and fourth gender traditions.
39:20
So, trans people aren't new, non-binary people aren't new, we've always existed in pre-colonial communities.
39:25
And so, wellness for me and and mental health cannot be divorced from structures of domination like like white supremacy and cisnormativity and patriarchy.
39:38
And you know, colonialism is synonymous with a gender binary that necessarily erases the natural occurrence of people who exist outside that binary.
39:51
And so, when we have conversations about health and well-being, we have to understand that I personally know from my own experience that as as a black trans woman from working-class background, raised in Mobile, Alabama, that I internalized deeply transphobic things about myself that I had to unlearn, deeply racist things about myself and my community that I had to unlearn.
40:16
unlearn. So, part of my mental health journey has been unlearning um transphobia, my internalized transphobia, and learning my internalized white supremacy and anti-blackness so that I can love myself more, so that I can love the people
40:30
around me more, and understanding that we're all raised in a culture that teaches that for me creates so much empathy for people who might be struggling with that, who might not understand the extent to which they've internalized transphobia or white supremacy. And so, I can give them a lot
40:47
And so, I can give them a lot of grace because I've been there, too.
40:52
I've I've been transphobic.
40:52
I still have transphobic ideas and thoughts that I have to unlearn and check myself with.
40:58
And that is part of my mental health.
40:58
I sit on my podcast and I say in life that there, you know, it's like 50% of things I I 50% I don't know if it's 50% is are are the structures, are the things that we internalize around white supremacy.
41:10
Bell Hooks says "Imperialist white supremacist capitalist patriarchy."
41:12
I add to that cisnormative, heteronormative, imperialist capitalist patriarchy, the structures that we sort of exist under, these intersecting structures of domination is the way Bell Hooks would put it.
41:23
But then there's the 50% of like what's my part in it?
41:29
What is the 50% I am responsible for my life, right?
41:31
And so, I'm more responsible.
41:33
I'm able to take more responsibility when I'm educated, when I have have an education for critical consciousness.
41:39
So, in this world that is anti-intellectual, that is where we've we're defunding schools, that education becomes so critically important so that we can like take full responsibility for ourselves and our lives, and that education is around mental health, that education is around health in general.
41:56
It's around these structures, it's around understanding capitalism, right?
42:01
That there's so many people who are frustrated, you know?
42:02
Um my boyfriend who's considerably younger than me, you know, makes a wonderful living, can't buy a house right now because real estate prices are just so insane.
42:11
And that's not because he's not working hard.
42:13
He's working 60-80 hours a week and he makes a lovely living, but the system is set up in a way, this capitalist system, where home prices are just like Mhm.
42:25
it's out of reach for so many people.
42:27
So, like and that can cause us mental and emotional stress, but if we understand that there is a system in place that it's keeping a generation of people from being able to buy their homes, that can help give us some perspective and hopefully not feel like we're not enough.
42:43
Cuz I think a lot of I I see this happening to him, where it's like I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do.
42:49
And I think we And he And he is happens to be a a straight white man.
42:53
And so we we There's all these conversations now about crisis around men.
42:57
And there's a You know, I don't I don't know if you would agree with that, but I think so much of that crisis, especially when I see, you know, a dating a very attractive, you know, dirty blonde, blue-eyed, um straight white man, that this, you know, that the world has told him this is what, you know, should be available to you as a straight white man who's attractive and who works hard.
43:19
And then these things are not available because of a system in place that it really is designed to keep, you know, people a lot of people down, whether you're black, white, whatever.
43:30
And so I think so much of the cognitive dissonance now, and we displace that.
43:36
We say that that feminism is the is is the reason, right?
43:38
I see if you if you go into the manosphere on the internet, you'll you'll hear a lot of men saying, "Oh, feminism is the reason why."
43:46
Or or, you know, diversity and inclusion programs are the reason why, when maybe, you know, you know, predatory capitalism and corporations who have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and no one else.
44:01
Maybe that's why you the promise of what you're supposed to have in this country as a straight white man, maybe it's not the fault of of immigrants or or feminism or or diversity and inclusion programs, maybe it's this this capitalist system that has lied to you and told you.
44:21
And so and I think having that critical awareness for me is a part of mental health.
44:28
For me having a critical relationship to the world around me on a systemic level is part of me just having a perspective, placing things in perspective and so that like I'm not it reduces the beating myself up.
44:43
It reduces the like I should be working harder. I should be doing more. I'm not enough.
44:49
And you know, it doesn't absolve me of responsibility for my life saying cuz I think there's a there's a mentality of saying, oh, racism is this, I'm never going to get to where I need to go.
45:01
We can do that or we can say racism is this, sexism is this, misogyny, all of these things are true, but I'm here. Mhm.
45:10
But I'm here and I have an opportunity in this corrupt system, how can I navigate?
45:15
How can I negotiate within this system and to let my light shine? To be on purpose. Why am I here?
45:24
Why has God put me here on this planet and how can I, in the face of all these things, rise up and be there for myself as much as I can so that I am not a victim of any of this. I refuse to be a victim.
45:41
That I can I can say to myself, in the face of all of this, I'm going to proceed in the world with dignity, with self-respect, with love for myself, with love for other people, and a deep deep passion for what I do, and a passion for for better.
46:00
And it's going to be okay.
46:04
Well, I'm genuinely in awe of how someone can internalize what's going on around them and at the same time remain independently thoughtful about what that means. It's work.
46:22
It's work to stay separate, to detach from that, to not become hopeless around it.
46:27
I There's There've been moments this year when I have felt deeply hopeless and deeply sort of unempowered in like how we going to sort of fight this.
46:38
And when when I think it was when the when the when the gender affirming I think it was Oklahoma that when they banned gender affirming care up until the age of 26, I was like, "Okay, no.
46:47
We have to change this narrative."
46:49
And it can be and it just something clicked for me.
46:51
And sometimes we I have to go away and think and I have to strategize and I It's not I I can't always just be on TV or be on a on a you know, picket line or at a protest.
47:02
Sometimes I have to go and think and strategize.
47:03
I was like, "We have to change this narrative."
47:05
And I cannot have the conversation about who I am on these terms that have nothing to do with me.
47:14
All of the terms that have that they've set forth that have deeply dehumanized trans people when um senators are asking um Supreme Court candidates about what is a woman and they're talking about mutilating children.
47:27
All of that is deeply dehumanizing of trans people.
47:28
What those people who do not want trans people to exist in public life have done very successfully propagandistically that have led to um legislation that um take away the bodily autonomy and the rights of trans people so that they have dehumanized us to such an extent where people can't have conversations about LGBT Some people can have conversations about LGBTQ+ people without equating us with things that even like to repeat.
47:56
I don't want to repeat any of those narratives, but I think you know some of the disparaging, dehumanizing, very retrograde narratives that we can trace back to the 1970s, right? What about the children?
48:07
All those all those sorts of things.
48:09
So, understanding deeply that I will not have my identity be up for debate.
48:18
That my access to gender-affirming care is actually no one's business.
48:23
It is between me and my doctor.
48:25
And that the access, even for children, is actually not up for debate if you're not a healthcare professional. It blows me away.
48:34
All of the sort of journalists and all of the sort of people who feel like it is fine Oh, children getting gender-affirming care and having access to gender-affirming That is up for debate, right?
48:44
We can debate that because children go da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da when the American Academy for Pediatrics, when the Endocrine Society, when the you know, all of these different, you know, very reputable organizations say that this is the way that we should treat transgender children.
48:58
And this these are the protocols with parental consent, etc. , etc.
49:03
And then all these other people say, "Well, we have to debate this." No. No.
49:10
It's actually if you're not a trans child, the parent of a trans child, or a healthcare professional, it's actually none of your business.
49:16
And I feel the same way about reproductive rights.
49:18
I feel the same way if you're not a person who can get pregnant and need of an abortion, it's actually none of your business.
49:28
And I think that that for me needs to be the conversation.
49:31
It's deeply empowering for me to say that to myself and to say it publicly that it is actually And it's dehumanizing.
49:40
It is deeply dehumanizing for people to sit on televisions and and on podcast debating my access and children's access to a care.
49:53
I mean, if a child had cancer, we wouldn't be having debates about what what whether this I mean, there's side of all sorts of side effects to chemotherapy, you know, but we would defer to the experts on that.
50:04
Um uh Nicole Maines um is a brilliant, beautiful trans woman who's an actress.
50:12
She played um Dreamer on Super Supergirl.
50:14
She's just so incredible, and she transitioned as a child.
50:16
I recently interviewed her on my podcast, and it was so lovely to hear from a child uh she's in her early 20s now, but she transitioned as a child.
50:26
And so many of these conversations, again, that people are having about trans kids, and they're not talking any of the kids.
50:33
And then the kids are saying there was a recent story um this New York Times ran where all the this whistleblower, you know, said that this clinic was doing all these things, and then the parents these parents came out and said, "Well, no, the clinic wasn't doing this, and that my child was treated well."
50:47
And the children are saying all these things.
50:50
And the children are saying that we were treated well.
50:52
And the parents are saying that we were treated well.
50:53
And then they're just going with this other whole other narrative.
50:57
So, people aren't even listening to trans people.
50:58
They're not listening to their parents of trans people.
51:01
So, they've just hijacked the narrative, and they're not listening to us.
51:05
And underneath all that is them not wanting us to exist.
51:08
And if we think about it that that the then if you go back to the beautiful podcast you had with Oprah, what happened to you?
51:18
If you don't if you're so deeply invested in stigmatizing trans people and saying that trans people are mentally ill, how if you don't know somebody trans, if you don't have a trans How does it even affect you?
51:33
How in the world does it affect your life? What happened to you?
51:35
And so, that's the empathetic piece that I have, that this that people are in these times that we live in, people are in so much pain.
51:45
And I think that's why we have so many wellness podcasts and things and people are so people are in so much pain for so many reasons and so many of those things are systemic.
51:54
So many of those things are about unhealed childhood trauma, not having language, words, skills, neighborhoods that have just been completely devastated from poverty, income inequality, so many structural things, so many, you know, interpersonal things, so many, so much unhealed childhood trauma.
52:11
It is an inside job when it comes to my healing, but it is also a structural job.
52:18
It is also a that that we can't just charity our way out of it, do philanthropy our way out of it.
52:27
We have to our governments have to invest in schools and communities and and mental health in a serious way and and I don't necessarily have faith in our governments.
52:38
So then what do we do then do for ourselves and for each other?
52:41
And whenever I have a problem, you know, I I'm less there these days, but when I used to have problems with other people, it's usually about an insecurity that I had with myself.
52:53
And so I had to take a moment with myself and to self reflect.
53:00
Media literacy becomes so crucially important in this moment.
53:03
You know, sometimes I get into arguments with my boyfriend boyfriend specifically about something and and and well I'm like, well, let's check that source and then like, let's check let's cross reference this source with this source and which one is more, you know, reputable.
53:16
So that we're I'm constantly checking different information and seeing the source and looking for the biases, right?
53:23
So because that's where that's really where we have to be in this moment.
53:27
I think it's around wellness too because there's a lot of people who are grifting around wellness, right?
53:34
And they're they're trying to sell some product or sell something and we have to just always have critical awareness around the things that we receive that the information we're getting on the internet, information we're getting from the from cable news, from the news in general.
53:49
Just a critical awareness around information is crucial and and critical thinking skills are so important in teaching people how to triple-check sources and get informa- you know, get in try to get find reputable sources and thinking about like how a study can be manipulated, right?
54:11
Just having those that critical awareness is just crucially important in this in this day and age because I think we can spin ourselves out in a psychological and emotional way when we think about the people, you know, I think about those folks who said that they were radicalized around January 6th, right?
54:27
Through social media propaganda and then found themselves, you know, on trial for their lives and admitting that they were sort of propagandized and, you know, didn't and they're had their incredible consequences.
54:40
And and I think they were probably struggling in their lives.
54:43
You know, when we when you hear about, you know, young men being radicalized into white supremacist groups, so much of that is about a loneliness, about a trying to find a sense of community, right?
54:56
And so there's always something going on psychologically and emotionally with people and if we can have that frame for people, giving people grace.
55:07
I mean, I think there's, you know, I think our actions must have consequences, right?
55:10
So I'm not like forgiving people for terrorist activities or anything like that, but I think we can, you know, I'm responsible for my actions and we all are.
55:17
So, you know, if you do unfortunate things because you've been radicalized, then then you have to sort of deal with the consequences of that.
55:27
But then for those people who've come out on the other side of that, I think their stories are very valuable around talking about how they were radicalized and maybe were deradicalized and I then began to understand what pain they were in and what they were struggling with.
55:40
And everyone is struggling with something, and it's like if we can if they can hopefully we can meet people with love and empathy in their struggles, the people in our lives who might be going down a road, some sort of very radical road, and a lot of people are right now.
55:55
If we can hold them close, maybe we may not be able to, we may have to let them go.
55:58
Certain people we have to let go of because it's not healthy for us, but if we can keep these people in our lives with love and empathy, and maybe just love them through these moments, maybe they won't end up in situations that become, you know, where they're going to prison for, you know, behavior they've engaged in.
56:16
On that point, I want to ask this question because every time I feel what happens with any difficult, uncomfortable conversation is that again, you pointed this out earlier, it's happening in silos.
56:28
So, you have a group of people over here talking about it, but they're talking about it with each other.
56:32
Then you have a group of people here talking about it talking about it with each other.
56:37
If you could sit down, not a debate, not an argument, but a genuine discussion, conversation of learning from both sides with someone in the world, who's that person that you think you'd want to sit with to have that educated, thoughtful, conscious conversation around the subject matters that you care about?
56:57
that's why we reached out to Joe Rogan because I think you know, he has had so many But he's kind of in the middle there, right?
57:02
Like he's kind of trying to talk to both He's interesting.
57:04
He's interesting because, you know, some people would say he has he represents a lot of normie, you know, sort of opinions on things, and then like there's some things that gotten more sort of radically conservative on his podcast.
57:15
But he's someone I was interested when I was interested in going on his show, it was just like I would just love to chat with him.
57:20
I'm not trying just to be a go and be a human being.
57:23
I'm just going to be Laverne, you know, just go and like not necessarily if we want to talk about some of these issues, I mean, I'm certainly not an expert in sports, that's a big issue with him, trans people in sports.
57:32
I'm not I don't play sports.
57:33
I've never, you know, not athletic.
57:37
I know a little bit about the studies that have been done, the very few studies that have been done on actual trans people in sports.
57:43
But he's someone who comes to mind because I I think it's really just about how can can we be human?
57:47
Can we be human together?
57:50
And I think that's the first piece.
57:52
That like so much of what has happened has been deeply dehumanizing, where they've sort of made trans people into an ideology.
58:01
I mean, when people sort of sort of like transgender ideology, I'm like, what exactly is that?
58:07
And and What are some What are some of the concerns, you do me empathy, what are some of the concerns on the other side, so to speak, that you empathize with or that you parts of the narrative where you're like, oh, I understand where that's coming from, but that isn't actually what I believe our thoughts are.
58:23
Like, what would you say is like, oh, I I get where that's coming from, but that's actually a misnarrative cuz I think what ends up happening, and I'm looking at it from a trying to look at it from an observer point of view and going, is it that people are actually arguing two completely different things, and we're arguing about the wrong thing?
58:41
Like, we're not even talking about what the part of the I mean, I think honestly, part of the problem is that a lot of the ways in which for many years, since Oh gosh, since the early since the early 2000s, there have been states have been attempting to do bathroom bans.
58:54
I think Phoenix was one of the first cities, and we were able to sort of not have that, you know, protest happen, and there were not bathroom bans against trans people using the bathroom.
59:06
Famously in 2016, HB2 in North Carolina was the big bathroom bill, but there have been other states who've been trying to, you know, ban access to bathrooms to for trans people.
59:14
So, for years, conservatives were working to get trans people out of bathrooms.
59:19
That actually didn't really work anywhere.
59:23
And so, after marriage equality became the law of the land, conservative groups focused had focus groups and they were like they they talked to them specifically about different trans issues.
59:32
And what seemed most salient to them were trans women specifically in sports.
59:39
And so then that became the focus.
59:41
And they were like, "Okay, we can take the play they need a bind playbook from the 70s and focus on children, trans people in sports and children."
59:49
And so then there was a proliferation of new stories on Fox News and conservative in conservative media all over the internet. Google it.
59:56
It's just hundreds of stories on Fox News about trans people in sports.
1:00:00
None in like, you know, more mainstream media like reading like if you're not watching Fox News or conservative media, you didn't you wouldn't realize that there was an issue with with trans people in sports, but if you watch Fox News, you would think that like trans people are dominating sports.
1:00:15
Like that trans women are like, you know, that So that I mean this is really for for most people trans women in sports becomes the crazy thing that like we can't do.
1:00:23
For Joe Rogan it's it's it's it's the issue.
1:00:25
And there's not enough real studies on actual trans women in sports.
1:00:31
You would need to do double-blind studies of trans women's performance capacity in different sports.
1:00:37
There there's one study that was done with just trans women specifically with running, but it was a small sample size that looked at their performance pre-transition and post-transition.
1:00:45
But then there haven't been any studies on like weightlifting, on swimming, on all the and they're different skill sets that are required.
1:00:53
People make assumptions because people don't think that trans women are women.
1:00:58
So they make assumptions that if you've gone through your puberty that releases testosterone, that you're going to have a physical advantage.
1:01:03
In 2002, the International Olympic Committee created standards for trans people to compete in 2002.
1:01:08
They had to do with testosterone levels being on hormone replacement therapy for a certain amount of time.
1:01:15
And since 2002, so that's been that's 21 years, we've had one trans Olympian.
1:01:19
And she like she was a weightlifter a few years ago, and she like failed to qualify.
1:01:26
Like she made it to the Olympics, but then she was out in the first round.
1:01:29
So, in the 21 years that trans people have been able to compete in the Olympics, for example, trans women are not dominating.
1:01:36
There are a few trans women who win competitions, and we hear all about those trans women, right?
1:01:41
And like conservatives know those trans women probably better than I would know those trans women.
1:01:46
They're like hand on the hand the handful of trans women.
1:01:48
And then you um look at sports bans on trans children.
1:01:54
There was a governor, I forget, I think it was West Virginia, who was on on television um so it was NBC, and Stephanie Rule was like, "You know, are there any trans um girls dominating in your state that you know of?" And he said, "No."
1:02:06
And he didn't know of any, and there weren't any.
1:02:07
And there was one trans girl who was playing sports that we knew of in I think was Utah, and they created sports ban for one person, for one trans girl.
1:02:17
And so so much of this is this anxiety, but it's what's interesting to me is at the same time that there these sports bans that um we're going to ban trans girls from sports to keep fairness in sports, that they're also banning gender-affirming care and stigmatizing and creating misinformation around puberty blockers.
1:02:38
And the what I do know about uh sports and alleged advantages that people might have or trans people might have is that that advantage happens after puberty, right?
1:02:49
That pre-puberty that there's not really because testosterone hasn't been um introduced yet, that there's no advantage.
1:02:54
And so, the same people who say that they don't want trans girls competing also want to take away the ability for trans girls to be able to go through the puberty that is consistent with their identity, and that would actually not give them an advantage.
1:03:09
And so many of the kids, the trans kids who play sports, are not dominating.
1:03:13
They just want to play with their friends.
1:03:17
They just want to have this communal experience from what I've what's from the trans people I talk to that there's something I never played sports, but allegedly, apparently, people who play sports there's a sense of teamwork and and community and the the young girl um in Utah who she there was a field hockey team that she the team wasn't didn't even exist.
1:03:36
She basically like rallied the girls, you know, to get the field hockey team together and then like after she had done all this work to get the team, she couldn't play on it.
1:03:43
And that just feels it just it's a it's really discriminatory and I think that like there is I think fairness in sports is something that we should there are standards in place for that.
1:03:54
But I don't think it's really about that at the end of the day.
1:03:57
And so I think that like even having this long sort of drawn out conversation about sports, it's actually not about that.
1:04:04
It's actually not I don't think it's about fairness in sports.
1:04:07
I think it is about stigmatizing trans people.
1:04:10
It's about people being deeply uncomfortable.
1:04:12
That's almost always where it goes.
1:04:15
That they're talking if they if it say it's about sports, they say it's about the children, but it's really about a discomfort with trans people existing.
1:04:26
That's at the core of it.
1:04:26
If we if we look at empirically at what they're saying and then the public policies that are put in place.
1:04:37
So people make sports an issue.
1:04:37
They make gender-affirming care an issue for children, but it's ultimately about them wanting to erase trans people from public life because we make them uncomfortable for some reason.
1:04:50
Do do you do Are you feeling me on that? Do you feel me on that?
1:04:55
Cuz cuz I think we can parse out all these different issues that they say they have a problem with, but at the end of the day, when we're talking about banning gender-affirming care for adults in Florida, effectively gender-affirming care for adults is banned with it.
1:05:10
They've uh is no longer covering um gender affirming care in Florida for trans people and um DeSantis passed a bill that would um allow only doctors, not nurse practitioners, to administer gender affirming care when 80% of trans people in Florida get their gender affirming care from nurse practitioners. Got it.
1:05:28
So, this is very similar to what they're doing with the abortion um bills, right?
1:05:31
So, that's why it gets tricky to go into having conversations about sport and like parsing out and getting distracted about that.
1:05:39
That is actually having the conversation on their terms.
1:05:42
Having the debate around trans children and gender affirming care is having the debate on their terms.
1:05:47
It is actually not your business when it comes in fairness in sports and and I think too cuz we see a a a coalition now of of a women who call themselves feminists who are care about women's rights, a coalition between them and right-wing conservatives who want to take away the abortion rights of women and people who can get pregnant.
1:06:10
So, they have like coalesced and are like, you know, in common cause around getting trans people out of women's spaces and protecting women's spaces and protecting women's sports.
1:06:20
And so, this is just about transphobia. It's about transphobia. And so, why is it?
1:06:26
And I think there's a larger conversation around gender roles, what you know, that whole sort of Matt Walsh question, what is a woman, you know?
1:06:34
And I think ultimately, what is a man?
1:06:37
In this moment in in this historical moment right now, women are so beautifully independent. We make our own money.
1:06:44
We in so many ways, we don't need men.
1:06:48
And we a lot of women have evolved and a lot of men have evolved, but a lot of men haven't.
1:06:58
And the structure of patriarchy has not evolved.
1:07:01
And their backlash against like women having autonomy at these roles being challenged.
1:07:09
Trans people are a part of that.
1:07:13
The existence of trans people and like defining gender on your own terms and defining what it means to be a woman on your own terms.
1:07:19
Being a woman used to be in antebellum United States of America, black women weren't women.
1:07:27
Black women weren't even human, right?
1:07:30
Womanhood in the United States is a colonial white supremacist construct.
1:07:34
colonial white supremacist construct. It is a patriarchal construct and that is being dismantled as women are taking control of our lives and our our abilities to have children or not and just we're all a lot of that patriarchy is just being dismantled by the lived experiences of women and so many men don't know how they fit into that
1:08:00
because they haven't done the work of interrogating patriarchy and interrogating that model and you've talked so beautifully on on your podcast about being vulnerable as a man and what that looks like and vulnerability is a piece of it but I and and that is our my own for men dealing with their the ways in which they've internalized patriarchy and these systems that are not serving them. Patriarchy isn't serving most men
1:08:24
Patriarchy isn't serving most men especially if you're a man of color.
1:08:29
Especially if you're a working class man, right?
1:08:30
Patriarchy is not actually really serving you and I think the frustration of a lot of working class men of all races is that patriarchy isn't serving them and it's supposed to be and it's confusing, right?
1:08:40
And then women are so empowered now and don't necessarily need men but I still want a man.
1:08:49
And then trans people are in the middle of all this, right?
1:08:51
And so then it's like we can be we become a scapegoat.
1:08:53
We can become a scapegoat for like all of the anxieties that people have that that that some women have who are not transgender for that some men have.
1:09:02
We become a scapegoat for all of this anxiety about gender roles changing and these trans people aren't helping and then like they're you We're usurping women.
1:09:13
All these narratives that actually have nothing to do with trans people.
1:09:17
It has to do with a certain level of progress, a certain level of like these systems not working for people anymore and the uncertainty and the uncomfortability of all of that.
1:09:27
So much of this is about being able to sit with discomfort and uncertainty and not being able to make any sense of it.
1:09:35
And what makes sense to so many people is when someone is having a baby, is it a boy or girl?
1:09:48
If I don't If I can't even hold on to it's a boy or a girl and that binary If I can't hold on to that, what can I hold on to?
1:09:57
And so people desperately need to hold on to some sense of certainty and trans people and our existence does not allow that and there is a cognitive dissonance and there's an anger because there's not There's so little that we can hold on to that that we can be certain about in these times.
1:10:13
Can I hold on to something?
1:10:16
And trans The existence of trans people is another thing that we can't hold on to, but we've Trans people have always existed. It's just a It's a lie.
1:10:24
Intersex people exist biologically.
1:10:24
All these people who want to talk about biology biological sex and that term is is a very tricky term, but we'll let's use it for now for for expediency is not binary. Intersex people exist.
1:10:36
Like there's There are more intersex people than redheads, right?
1:10:40
So that like even biologically gender doesn't exist in a on a binary. It exists on a spectrum.
1:10:47
So if So then it's like why do we sit with discomfort and uncertainty and like sit in that and let go again going back to letting go of the story.
1:11:01
Like the stories that I can tell myself about not being enough, those stories are so often tied to I'm a woman I'm supposed to be this way.
1:11:11
For people who identify as men they're a man and I'm you're supposed to be this way.
1:11:15
I'm white and it's supposed to be this way. I'm from this place.
1:11:17
Letting go those stories.
1:11:19
And it's sometimes deeply uncomfortable to let go of the story that like I've always been attached to deeply attached to. It's painful. It's painful.
1:11:29
And then so what conservatives who don't want trans people to exist have done successfully is play it on the fears of people not being able to sit with discomfort and uncertainty and have used that to attempt to legislate and to adjudicate trans people out of existence. That is what's going on.
1:11:53
So even having the narrative of talking to people from the other side is a false dichotomy because we're all in the same boat. Of course.
1:12:01
Yeah, no, I I was doing as a as a framework of though yeah.
1:12:05
and I went there a little bit with you, but it's like I think it's I think we're all in the same boat around this uncertainty, around all these questions.
1:12:12
And if we can sit with that and hopefully sit across from someone like we're doing now and see their humanity.
1:12:20
No, that's I mean, sitting and listening to you and anyone else that I meet, I'm only seeing humanity and that's how at least I was trained in my tradition was to only look at someone for their humanity and the the essence that exists within then my intention with that honestly with this is that I feel so educated and enlightened today and I've learned so much from you. Thank you.
1:12:43
And and I genuinely genuinely do hope even though I was doing it as a thought exercise, I do hope that and it and it may be one of these, you know, idealistic viewpoints, but I I think it's needed.
1:12:54
Like, I wish we could sit down with people that we think we have opposing views.
1:13:00
There has been so many moments throughout my life where I, you know, waited tables, and worked in restaurants for 19 years in New York, and encountered so many people from different backgrounds.
1:13:10
I did not talk about being trans or trans politics. I was just myself. Yeah, of course.
1:13:14
I was just myself with these people, and it's just been so beautiful that the empirical evidence of my life, that I just get to be myself, and people are like, "Oh, yeah, she happens to be trans, but she's she's cool. She's awesome."
1:13:28
And it's not I'm not the only one who's cool and awesome. Of course.
1:13:32
Like, we all are like a lot of trans people are cool and awesome.
1:13:35
There's some crazy people who are cool and awesome.
1:13:36
There are people across every demographic who aren't cool and awesome, but a lot of us are.
1:13:39
And even if we aren't cool and awesome, we're still human, you know?
1:13:43
And sitting across from people and just chilling, you know, is like it's it's beautiful.
1:13:50
I think about all of the um sort of parents um of of the different men I've dated over the years.
1:13:56
I've I I've I'm 51, so I've met some parents. I've had that.
1:13:58
My day and I just remember um like 20 years ago, I was dating this guy, and then we met I met his parents, and he they knew I was trans going in.
1:14:05
They're like, "Oh, she's so lovely."
1:14:07
And then I was another guy's um mom who I met um this is early 2000s. I met her. She loved me.
1:14:12
She thought I was great for her son.
1:14:14
Like, 3 years into the relationship, I um he was in the phone with his mom.
1:14:19
He's like, "Oh, Laverne is giving herself an estrogen shot."
1:14:21
And she's like, "Oh my god, what is she pregnant? What's going on?" And she's freaking out.
1:14:24
Like, no, she's And he just starts laughing.
1:14:27
She's like, "She's trans, and we thought she knew, but she didn't know."
1:14:30
And she had met me and loved me, and then she freaked out.
1:14:34
And then she comes to visit. She's from Minneapolis.
1:14:36
She comes and visits, and then we have dinner together.
1:14:39
And she's like, "Laverne is lovely. She's great.
1:14:41
I I I'm so happy that she's in your life, you know?"
1:14:44
And she had whatever story she had around me being trans, and then we had dinner together and hung out, and it was like, she's great. Yeah.
1:14:53
And I just have so many of those experiences in my life, and so I part of me is just like, let's just sit down and have dinner, girl. Let's just chill. It's all good. I love it.
1:15:01
Laverne Cox, you have been a joy to be around today, honestly.
1:15:07
And I love how smart, intelligent, intellectual, thoughtful you are about the words that you share, the way you present them.
1:15:13
And you're you're a change maker, and I'm really honored to have sat down with you for this time, to learn from you, to grow with you, and I I really hope that we'll continue to have this conversation offline, too. Me, too. Me, too.
1:15:27
I really look forward to it.
1:15:28
feel on purpose, darling? Do you feel Definitely. Definitely.
1:15:30
That was That you you are very on purpose. I try.
1:15:37
Thank you so much, Laverne. Thank you. Thank you, honestly.
1:15:38
If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with Meghan Trainor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out.
1:15:49
My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for 5 minutes.
1:15:51
It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C-section scar with all the stretch marks, now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked.
1:15:58
But day three, when I did it, I was like, you know what? Her thighs are cute.