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Nearly 10 years, man. I've known you. Nearly 10 years.
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>> We're coming up on our 10 year anniversary. >> Time flies. >> God bless. We're still here, man. Alive. I'm so happy to see you. >> Oh, yeah.
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I'm happy to see you, too.
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>> Sounding so light on your feet, man.
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But also always with things to say. >> Always.
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>> I just love how you've been able to create the chemistry on this album, which kind of allows you to move, allows us to move, >> but also, you know, there's been things moving around you, things shifting beneath your feet.
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You, you look grounded, you feel grounded. How's life?
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How's How do you feel right now? I feel great. I feel uh content.
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I feel like maybe before around this time, you know, pre- album, I would be feeling a lot of anxiety, but I feel like >> uh the only thing that I'm really anxious about is the world just discovering >> how much I love this album through hearing the album, even vocally, >> where you're hearing me sing these songs, and I'm just at the top of my game energetically and just it's free. It's floaty.
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>> It sounds like you look right now, light in your eyes, you know?
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I just feel like you're engaged with your performance and and you're really feeling everything that was coming out of the studio during that time.
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There's also a lot of music on this album and it came on hot on the heels of your last record.
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So, I mean, you tell me, but I would, if I was, you know, going to guess as a betting man, I would suggest that that once you got your head around the fact that you wanted to make music at this point and you had things you wanted to say that it actually happened pretty fast. >> It's so fast.
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I I think the thing about sincere was it took me so long, but once I got it out, it it only opened the door.
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This flood of creativity, this eagerness, this I'm like a, you know, a horse in a stable just ready to run free.
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>> What do you think that what do you put that down to?
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What do you think Sincere did for you as a writer and as an artist that kind of allowed you to to to climb above the clouds a little more?
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This album would have never been what it is if it wasn't for the groundwork of Sincere.
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I look at Sincere as the stepping stone.
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I It's like that moment of of release where I was holding on to all of this depression and sadness and I'm able to to bottle it up and give it to my fans.
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And it it connected to people in a way where they really felt my hurt.
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And now that I got the hurt out, there was just so much freedom, so much love to to discover.
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And it's only it only makes so much sense that that that love to discover translated through the the music because I'm discovering love with every song that I'm writing every day.
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This, like I said, eagerness day in day out where I'm writing the quickest that I've that I've written since the beginning of my career. >> You feel truly free. >> Free. Truly.
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It's amazing how your inner voice, if you allow it, and art plays such an important role in this, if you allow it, >> uh is able to to teach even you things before we even get a chance to hear them and apply them to our life.
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>> Um you know, >> congratulations, man.
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You know, there's blue sky ahead of you now.
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I'm sure you feel like >> like uh the the truest self that you could feel.
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>> Um but when you were making Sincere, you talked about the depression, the anxiety, what what was going on in your life.
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Were those things connected?
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Do you think looking back on them now? Of course.
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Uh I think that's also why it took sincere so long to be made is because I was like how do I how do I become honest?
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You know, how do I reveal myself but >> how do I >> keep something to myself as well, >> right?
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Because being at your most honest, >> it's like there's no um >> hierarchy to that sometimes in society when you're in the public facing position.
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revealed quite a large to >> I can imagine how intimidating that must feel.
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>> It was extremely intimidating.
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Uh I think the only re true reason uh I mean although I was prepared I I I would say it would have taken a little bit longer.
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I think I just let go of it all >> and I was like, I am just going to come into this if I'm >> being exposed, if I'm being outed into the world instead of shying away from the world.
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I' I've done all that already.
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I I did that for eight years of my career.
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I'm like, the only decision that I can possibly make is embracing it all.
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And it it catapulted me into this creative space where the reason why I feel so light on my feet, I feel so free is because music is a healing process.
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And when you're creating music, it's nourishment. It's filling your soul.
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And >> then I'm like, you know what?
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Wait, I I'm making the best music of my life by being open, by being >> by by letting people in.
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When you're outside of that door, it you don't understand it.
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But when you open that door and you cross through, you look back like, >> "Why did it take me so long?"
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>> Look, I I love how open and honest you've been, >> and you're right.
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I I can't understand the kind of um holding pattern or pain you that you you would be in at times.
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>> Um >> did people know?
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Obviously, did your family and friends know? Did other artists know? So, yeah.
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So, it wasn't it wasn't like it was a big secret >> because I wanted to do it in a moment where I felt I mean, I'm an artist.
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I wanted to do it when I felt like I was ready. to do something. >> Yeah. With purpose. >> With purpose. With purpose.
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And then the, you know, balloon pops and I'm like, okay. >> Yeah.
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>> Now I have to find my fitting, my footing, but I have to find it quickly.
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And I feel like it only inspired me because I had already anticipated and had plans of coming, you know, back to pop music and making pop music.
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It was already in the works and in the plan.
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I >> Cincy had done its job. >> Exactly.
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And so I think I just took it up to the universe took it up to God where I'm like, "Okay, this happened for a reason.
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Do I shy away from the reasons or do I discover it through that process?"
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It was kind of like, "Okay, >> American. Okay, I get a break.
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>> Location is is going crazy. Do I >> not?" Oh, yeah. Yeah.
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Well, I'm like, do I not keep making more music and try to turn this into an album or do I just let the I'm just going to take the fruits of what's been being given to me and I'm going to turn it into juice.
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I'm going to >> to turn it into energy.
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I'm going to push myself.
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That's just who I am as a person, just in my creative nature.
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>> But when we spoke on your second album, and I think I can say this now with the benefit of hindsight, and obviously we've known each other for a long time.
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I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but looking back on that and and and a couple of clips, you know, came across my timeline maybe a year ago from that conversation we had, you seemed a bit detached, a bit disassociated. >> Yeah.
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Because uh I think that there was the reason everybody's like, "Oh my god, I love American teen so much and American teen and impacted me is cuz it was it was free.
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There was freedom of ex expression.
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The only thing that I was focused on was being a teen.
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you know, when you're a teenager, it's the only thing that you know, you don't experience. It's a blimp of life.
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And I feel like now I'm in a way coming back to that.
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It's like I put pause on that expression to create music to please the masses that are uh coming along.
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But it it wasn't for me at that point.
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I wasn't making music for myself.
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And so I was extremely detached because although the music was great and it did what it did, my heart just wasn't in it.
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And I and when I took a year off, it took me 5 years to be able to be like, "Okay, you know what?
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Actually, I really love making music."
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Uh, and it's not it's never that I completely lost sight.
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It's just that that was just so far.
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>> I'm just down this hall.
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I'm like, I see the lights, but it's just really far.
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and what do I have to do to get back there?
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Being open, I I'm like, this was the answer all along.
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>> The openness started with sincere, but I I got it's like I was dipping my my toe into to the water to the pool.
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I got pushed into the pool and then I realized I'm like, "Okay, you know what?
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It's actually not that bad.
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If anything, I love it here."
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>> And and so I think that that's just where I'm at now. >> I'm so happy for you.
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>> And I know the fans are. We all are. Thank you.
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I mean, you can hear it in the music, you know, you know, it's all we ever want from our favorite artists is is is for there to be a place and time where you feel safe and enough to to express yourself in that moment.
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>> Give us something that we can add to our lives.
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And I can imagine it took you a second to kind of get back to that place of safety and security.
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And I I don't want to go into the details of it, but it's one thing to be outed, which seems like even a strange phrase in 2025, right?
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right? because it's it's crazy that we would even consider to be in or out of your own personal decision >> um and who you are as a human being but also there was trauma attached to that outing because it came on the back of like it felt accusatory at least in the way that it was presented and so it must have been really challenging for you to
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kind of figure out okay if I'm going to be k again if I'm going to come out there as in the artist how do I do so and not be looking around wondering who to trust and how to deal with this kind of >> I think that's why I lived my life the way that I did for so long you know but I it wasn't that I wasn't out to people that I really trusted, you know? I mean,
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I mean, I can remember having conversations with Kiana Leay and, you know, talking to her about my queer identity and being open and connecting and even like sharing tears in certain moments.
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And so, I felt supported by artists, you know, I felt supported by Normani, you know, I felt supported by >> collaborators that I that I knew and that I that I trusted.
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But, you know, we do live in a world where once that is out, it's so hard for people to focus on everything that's not that. And >> so crazy.
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>> I'm like, I came here to make music. >> Yeah.
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>> I think that's why this album came to be because I'm like, okay, yeah, there's we're divided.
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There's half of these people who are like, I love you.
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Half of these people are like, I hate you.
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How could you hide this from me?
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>> I'm like, you know what?
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Um, I'm not hiding anything from you.
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It's just none of your business. >> And who are you? I don't know you. >> Exactly.
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And this is this brings up a really interesting thing and we're going to get to the music in a hot second, but which it just it brings up a really interesting thing to me, which is this idea of boundaries. >> Yeah.
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And what when you present an identity to people and we fall in love with the you we know not the you that your family knows or you get are getting to know in real life >> then sometimes we lose ourselves a little bit even with the best of intentions and we say things like that >> like parasocial. >> Right. Right.
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And at the end of the day, you know, your job is to create music that that is that you're honest about and our job is to embrace it if we love it.
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>> It's also like people being like, "Oh my god, he's gay now.
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his music's going to suck. What do you mean?
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If if you've liked my music before, there's a high chance that you're going to continue to like my music >> because I've always been gay. >> Exactly.
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>> Just doesn't make sense.
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>> It doesn't make any sense.
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Um, that being said, you know, this album um is is full of joy and gives you a chance to to truly embrace the person you've always been.
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And I want to ask you what the difference was like in the studio for you making this music versus before.
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and just kind of, you know, give us a really good idea idea about like, you know, what kind of environment this album was made in.
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>> So much more open and collaborative.
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I think before as a songwriter, I just was a little bit more hidden, you know, I was just a little bit more to myself.
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Uh, I didn't want to share not because I didn't like to hang and and play around and I didn't want to share because I didn't want to expose.
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>> Well, that's part of the problem.
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That's why people are saying, "You kept this from me."
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Because when you actually move like that without even meaning to, you create an expectation of mystery. >> Yeah. Exactly.
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>> And so everyone's like, "Well, this is the kite I know.
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He doesn't really move in these ways and move in these circles and do this kind of >> I'm debilitating myself >> for everyone's entertainment.
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>> I'm in a way it like it's crazy excluding myself from amazing songwriters and producers because I'm just like I don't want to slip up in a conversation.
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conversation. um you know I'm my friends and maybe an engineer might know and I bring in a songwriter and a producer and they go as as far as being like well let's say girl this and like let's say girl this and I'm just like oh >> oh how about we say this and you know I just got tired of
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>> doing the hopping through hoops and I feel like with this experience making after the sun goes down there was just full trust vulnerability and openness with every piece of the puzzle with every songwriter with every producer >> conversations where Julia Michaels looks at me with the most sincere eyes. It's
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It's like a tear twinkles and she's just like, "I'm just so happy for you to be in this place."
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or working with Ilia and just feeling like we're just in our own zone because there's honesty, there's trust, there's openness, and that's what pushes me to write songs that land on this album where on on the same album that I'm discovering myself, I'm also tackling the trauma of losing a father >> at a young age.
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>> That song would have never came to be if I wasn't ready to be open, you know?
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Dude, it's like um so good to have this conversation with you and it's like we're really >> like before sometimes >> sometimes I just feel like maybe I would be like, "Okay, did he have a smoke before he came in? Like where is he?" You know what I mean?
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Like you know, and I realize now that maybe you were just checking every word. >> Yes.
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And now I'm just talking and it's just flooding out of my mouth and I'm not thinking about what I'm saying. I'm just being. Isn't that beautiful?
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Isn't that Isn't it great to be human? Unapologetically human. >> Oh my god.
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Because I can just cover my mouth and my hands and show my pretty little nails and not give a Like I love it.
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>> Last night I know you had like a a warehouse party and I got watched some of the footage this morning and it was just the pure joy that was coming out of that room. >> It you know what?
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It strengthens my bond with my fans.
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Like it doesn't take away from how strong I have a connection with my fans.
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If anything, it just it it deepens.
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It deepens >> because I'm looking at my listeners, my supporters, and I'm letting them in.
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>> I'm not just like, >> "Okay, I'm in >> promo mode, and here it goes, and they're talking to me, and I'm empathizing with them because I'm letting them in because they're looking at me for who I am." >> Yes.
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>> It only just >> makes the bond so much deeper, >> which is why we do it. >> Yeah. I love it. I love it. And I'm having fun.
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I'm like, "Oh my god, wait. This is fun."
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And before I was like, "It's cool, but there's this anxiety and there's this stress."
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And now I'm just like, "Oh my god, I'm having fun."
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Like I'm just dancing and you know, and everybody's clapping and they're supporting me and I'm like, "Wow."
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>> Cuz you've arrived, man.
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And I mean, you know, you when you first when you first when we first met you and you had this moment and it's like >> I think about that generation, you know, that came out around 15 16 and it really to me was when the internet became a business model.
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>> Before that it was just kind of like all right, it's a cool tool. It is what it is.
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Social media was taking hold and it was becoming like the thing.
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Obviously it was really hitting its peak period.
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But I feel like, you know, Tyler, you Mac, Scissor, Kendrick, Billy, Hoy. Yeah.
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There's a whole generation of American artists and some and some ones from around the world who kind of looked at the internet and started building your entire world within it and from inside out. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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And and and if I think back on that now, especially when I think about the loss of Mac, >> I think about how grateful I am, you know, that we have that that your generation for the most part is still here and can actually share some of this and survive it >> and survive it.
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>> You know, I think of kids.
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I I think of just American Teen. I think of Control.
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I think of like those albums were so authentic through and through because it's time capsules of the the freedom that came with just oh I just made the song and I could just upload it on Soundcloud and then the world like I was having a genuine authentic teenage experience.
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I'm starting to discover writing for the first time.
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It's the closest thing in my brain.
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Only thing I can think about is a sixth period and what I'm going to do when I get out of class and what party I'm going to go get up at and where I'm going to ditch my head and sleep for the night.
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Like that's real you know?
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And I put it in the album and I'm just so glad I caught it before things got so before it got so hard to be real, you know, because of the fear of cuz I went through it.
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I'm like, I started out the gate being so free, so open.
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Times change, like you said, becomes more of a business model.
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I have to be perfect and polished, and I have to please this person, and I have to please that person so quickly.
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>> I'm so glad I caught >> How old were you when it when it happened? How old were you? >> 18. >> 18.
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And yes, I can use the internet. It can be mine. I can reach the world.
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I can have this life-changing experience.
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Be my most authentic self.
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Be my most authentic self. Lord really helped everyone do that cuz she's like I'm sitting on a tennis court writing songs about sitting on a tennis court and if and her friends weren't going off Lord they were going yes I feel that way >> Lord inspired me >> right and then you get to do that and
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the internet goes oh cool excellent now you're that >> so stay that stay 18 forever >> stay forever >> it's impossible guys >> I mean and that's why I'm so grateful I feel like your generation is one of the most I've said this before one of the most inspiring generations in the history of musicm Mhm. >> For me, certainly in modern music,
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>> For me, certainly in modern music, because you took something that was so wild and unruly like the internet and the tool that it it is >> and you actually came through the other side and have built longlasting >> like careers out of this. >> Yeah.
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Oh my god, it's so crazy.
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I'm still doing what I'm doing.
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I feel like that's why it doesn't feel so long, but when you really reflect back, I'm like there there is so many years.
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10 years in the internet is about 50 years old.
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>> Oh my god, there's memes and all these things no one knows about now.
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And I like I sometimes I feel like I age myself when I'm joking around with my friends.
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I'm like kids are not talking about Vine, y'all.
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Like they don't even know what the In reality, I'm like 10 years doesn't feel like that long when you are an adult.
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does not feel like that long when you are living and working and going through anxiety and going through stress.
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That's like making the It doesn't feel like that long, especially being in an industry where you're probably doing 200 shows in a year >> on a great year.
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>> How can And it just goes in a blur.
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It doesn't feel that long. >> And it's all math.
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It's all fre high frequency numbers.
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How many hundreds of millions >> of plays did I get? >> Yeah.
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>> Like, oh, you got 100 million plays.
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Okay, but last time you got 400 million plays.
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What the are you talking about? Like, >> you know what?
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I think that's why now I'm like, I don't give a I'm still doing this >> Yeah. That's what I'm saying.
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Your generation actually have careers. >> Yeah.
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This is this is not supposed to have happened.
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It was supposed to be this big experiment on the internet la.
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And this is one of the things I'm most grateful about is also you talked about anxiety and how just it raised the the volume on on that as a conversation topic like for real >> because you all experienced it at a really very very acute level.
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>> That's why I wrote Silence with Marshmallow. You know what I mean?
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That's why I I I wrote songs that were so real in a way, like a cry for help to the people who listen to me.
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>> And now looking back that I've gotten through >> talk one of those too. >> Talk. Yeah.
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And now that I've gotten through it, when I look back, I'm like, "Oh my god."
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Like although there was a struggle, I wouldn't change a thing of the journey that led me to where I am now.
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And yeah, it might have taken 10 years, but it it feels new all over again.
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So, I would not change a thing >> cuz you're out of body. >> Out of body.
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I am literally >> literally >> literally, >> man.
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And you know, the video, the movement, everything about it.
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Um, to be able to explore a side of you that you probably already always knew was there.
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Again, another really beautiful experience to be able just like like focusing on the art direction of it or the choreography of it.
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All the things you see probably people like Nmani, good friends of yours that they get to dabble and you're like, "When do I get to play? I want to do that, too." >> Yeah.
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>> Cuz when I was a little boy, I used to do that in front of my mirror and I used to watch my favorite artist and think, "Oh my god, wow."
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>> But no, you're the guy that has to stand still and sing that song really meaningfully and in a heartfelt way.
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Nothing wrong with that, but still like, can I do it all? >> Exactly.
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Because life is all about duality.
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I don't get why it's so shocking that I'm liberated. I'm like, damn.
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Like, don't we all get a chance to have a drink and just enjoy life and have fun and let your hair loose and like we all deserve it and I do it and I'm not >> going to hide that I do it.
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>> Maybe that's just like a last minute check at the door to make sure it's real.
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Maybe that's what people are doing and they're just like, you know what, I love this music.
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I love this for you, but I just want to make sure that this is real.
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>> Do you know how some how the world thinks >> when they question whether it's authentic or not and they're like, "Oh my god, every artist just does this."
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And I'm like, "What do you guys think of the world?"
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>> Well, that's a loaded question because the world is not a friendly place.
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And you know, it's not a friendly place.
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>> It makes me want to be myself even more. >> Yeah.
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Which is I think what people really want.
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>> I'm like I'm like seeing how up >> Yeah. Yeah.
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is makes me want to just be myself even more >> because I also think about the people who will feel impacted by it and will feel hopeful >> because if I don't do it >> and so and so like so and so won't do it and then so and so won't do it then it just turns into a whole bunch of people who are just conforming to these boxes >> to please the masses.
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I'm like, fearlessness is needed in pop music.
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And so I'm like, I want to do it, too.
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And I'm going to do it, >> man. You've done it. >> Thank you.
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>> So much energy, so much dynamic energy on this record.
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Also, I love the kind of the real pointed sonic and kind of arrangement and melodic reference points to the music that you loved as a kid.
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>> The dark child of it all.
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Um, let's talk about that.
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I feel like being a child, a young child, is the closest steps to the purity.
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And I think that when I became a teenager, I became a little bit more guarded, a little bit more fearful, only deep in into my adulthood.
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I feel like this album is like my own letter to self to that young boy telling him all the possibilities that he can actually be if he just lets that fear go, lets that hurt go.
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>> And I think that although I can't physically physically touch the younger version of myself, this is like an an energetic transfer.
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You know, maybe those sparks of moments of dreams that I had when I was a child were from me speaking to that version of myself where I am now. You know what I mean?
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I just >> Well, that kid's still there.
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I mean, that's >> Exactly.
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It is really a deep message to my inner child and that was a child that lived through the thousands that lived through the thousand and tens and saw some of the most groundbreaking pop moments.
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moments. the introduction of dirty pop into into the world was was major and was controversial and you know >> it wasn't supposed to be that >> it wasn't your position over there on the charts do that thing
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>> exactly and so I think it's my homage to the risktakers to the Janets to the Britneys you know to just the people who really pushed their pedigree and were like I'm going to do it my way I'm like I get a chance to do that and I'm going to do it as well. >> You did it authentically and working
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>> You did it authentically and working with Dark Child was a real touch.
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Let's talk about what that what that felt like.
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>> It's all about going to the source because like you said, these people are still alive.
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They're still we still are living alongside our icons >> and it's their sound. >> And it's their sound.
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>> It's not like they It's not like they they have to go back and figure out how they did it.
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It's it was authentically who they are back then. It still is.
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>> Why am I going to go to a producer and be like, "Yo, make me a song, but make it sound like Dark Child." >> Exactly. Exactly.
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>> When Dark Child is alive, well, breathing.
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It just for me I'm like if we're going to go and dust off the pop textbooks, >> we have to resource the people who are still alive well and iconic.
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And yeah, I could have gone through that song and I could have just I I could have ignored the dark child tag.
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I could have just sang the song and I'm like, "No, this is an homage."
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The reason why it feels so classic is because I'm working with the source.
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>> So what did you learn?
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I learned that authenticity is just one of the most beautiful things and and connections >> not only about music but about the world.
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Like I'm working with people, you know, Swedish prop, Swedish pop geniuses >> who have pioneered and created songs like Hit Me Baby One More Time.
26:17
And I'm like face to face with these people having conversations >> and it's authentic and it's real and it's them and they're there.
26:27
I I just I I always want to pull from the source >> performance-wise.
26:32
How did Dark Child get something out of you that you haven't gotten before? What's the technique?
26:40
We talked and just had a genuine conversation and I gave him his flowers and gave him his props and told him about all the music that I was inspired by and listen to the Dark Child playlist on my way to the studio being reminded of all these just major hits and we took chances and we didn't just make one song, we made a couple of songs and Out of Body was just the one where I was like, "Oh my god, this >> fits the world that I'm living in." so much.
27:11
And there's still other songs, you know what I mean?
27:14
There's still other songs.
27:15
I think it was just trust.
27:17
>> He plays a beat, fire beat that he trusts me to hop on and execute it the way that >> he desires. >> It's trust.
27:26
It It just was really an incredible experience and really quick.
27:32
>> Is that something you struggled with in the past in the studio is trust? >> Yeah.
27:34
I I think that I have my oppositions >> and reservations.
27:40
I'm like I want to let people in, but I want to let people in, but and I think with this album is I'm like I want to let people in. Period.
27:53
And when I did let people in, I'm like, I had the most fun that I've had in my career 10 years in it now.
27:57
Have you reconnected with some of your older songs in a different way now that you're able to kind of hear them differently and realize that like because it is like it's it's almost probably a similar conversation to to having with your with your younger self.
28:11
We listen to some of these songs that were written during a different time in your life when you there was more sort of more tumultuous feelings going on in you about who who you were really versus who people thought you were >> um or wanted you to be even.
28:25
>> Do you get to go back and make peace with those songs too and and kind of breathe new life into them? Yeah, I love 18.
28:30
I love that song so much.
28:30
I think what breathes life into me.
28:33
I met a fan yesterday at um listening for the album and um her father was with with her >> and he was like, "We love your music.
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She's she you've been raised she's she's been raised the daughter's been raised by your music.
28:49
We love your music so much."
28:51
And actually she she's turning 18.
28:56
And I'm like, "Wow, I love that I made a song.
29:00
I love that I made an album.
29:00
I love that I I made something that still culturally impacts people that they bring it up to me.
29:09
They speak it to me and I get a chance to do it all over again.
29:13
I just love Young Dumb and Broke. I love 18.
29:16
I love uh just those moments, location.
29:22
I'm like I just I I love all of those.
29:25
And I think I I sing them and I perform them with with an even bigger smile on my face. >> Yeah, I can imagine.
29:30
It's like in a way it's like reconnecting with your with your songs for the first time in a very different kind of way. Let's talk about N.
29:37
I want to talk about this particular song.
29:39
>> The songs that I released before were a little bit more modest, a little bit more shy where I'm speaking about love as a longing of loss.
29:44
And I think this is an acceptance of disrespect.
29:47
Like you disrespected me and I'm not dealing with this anymore. I'm not longing for you.
29:54
I don't want anything to do with you.
29:56
Your clothes are sitting outside the house.
30:00
Come get them >> and get out of my life.
30:01
Before it might have been like, >> I still have your number saved >> and I'm hoping that you get a chance, you know, that you think to call me.
30:10
There was an insecurity that >> influenced a lot of the writing in my younger years and now there's a confidence that's influencing the writing where I'm at now.
30:21
>> How do you translate adoration when you're feeling insecurity most of the time? >> Yeah.
30:26
>> How do you how do you absorb that version of love where people tell you how great you are and scream your name and sing your songs and queue up?
30:34
Well, you you sit alone when it's done in a dark room thinking, "Wow, I'm still alone." >> That pot.
30:48
>> So, I didn't want to be there my entire life.
30:51
I respect where I was because it's a part of the growth.
30:54
I embrace where I was because I'm like, you know what?
30:57
You you were never really as lone as you imagined yourself to be as you imagined yourself to be.
31:03
And and I just I love looking back but it was hard.
31:11
>> I think truthfully like again not to overstep but I think it was always pretty clear that there was struggle going on. >> Yeah.
31:19
>> You know in terms of like sort of understanding the position you were in uh and the gift you were given but how to but how but what to do with it and how to how to accept it. >> I had no confidence.
31:31
M >> I'd hop on a song with uh I would hop on a song with a producer for example, he probably doesn't even know this.
31:39
I hopped on Marshmallow song.
31:40
I started to compare myself to every song that he's done before.
31:46
>> And thought, damn, am I good enough? >> Horrible. >> No one knows this.
31:49
The music does what it does.
31:52
I'm I'm still not fulfilled because I still don't feel great inside. Mhm.
31:58
>> Uh I love where I'm at now cuz I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm actually having fun."
32:02
I think my entire team is just really happy that we are where we are now. >> Same. >> Yeah. Thank you, >> man. I'm a fan. You know that.
32:09
And you know, we've known each other for a long time and and you know, I have the real privilege of sitting in a room like this or meeting up with artists and finding out where they stand at any moment in in their life.
32:18
And sometimes it's it's tough.
32:20
>> Sometimes it's it's not a happy place.
32:22
Sometimes you can tell it's not a happy place.
32:24
and you go where you're invited and the conversation sometimes goes there, sometimes it doesn't.
32:27
But today it's like a it's like a new thing. >> Yeah.
32:33
It's It feels nice to be real. >> It's so real.
32:36
And it's just And it's also just feels nice to be connected. >> Yeah.
32:40
>> And not feel like I'm trying to find out where you are because >> you're smoking yourself out of it. >> You know what I mean? >> Cuz I respect you. >> I love you too, man.
32:49
>> And I love you and I trust you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful.
32:52
the music is just >> is pure joy but again also some really really really important um life work going on in this um you talked about that particular song and other areas of the album where you're dealing I guess with a clear head for the first time to uncover some of that early trauma which probably created >> the uh >> the internal prison in the first place the internal box in the first place. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
33:13
You know, >> I I remember writing her people >> and I remember um we were just sitting in a circle just talking the day before about life and loss, excuse me, about loss life.
33:29
And I just was really open.
33:32
I don't even know what what brought me to being that comfortable to talk to a room full of people just about the grief of my father and how it still affects me to this day.
33:44
and a great songwriter listens.
33:48
So, I come into the studio the next day just not even imagining what I'm going to create.
33:54
I I don't really think that far ahead all the time, but I go into the studio um so he's like, I have this concept in my mind.
34:05
He's like, hurt people hurt people.
34:07
you know, you trusted us >> and you told us about just things that you've gone through in in life and how it's how it's shaped you.
34:15
And I'm like, "Oh my god."
34:18
And so we start we start writing the song and it's like the words are just flowing like just like this endless like I I I I I probably wrote that song in like five minutes. magic.
34:39
>> It just was waiting to be >> Yeah. Yeah.
34:41
>> It's just waiting to be brought out. >> Yeah.
34:44
>> And I'm just like I'm going line after line and it's just >> so quick.
34:48
It's like damn, I've always wanted to speak about this.
34:53
>> I love when I hear things like that because, you know, I re, you know, it it it just reinforces that like music is magic. >> It is.
35:00
>> What that song is to me in a very real way is a clear break of the cycle. >> Right.
35:05
The title says everything you need to say.
35:07
I mean, you know, you can double it up as a powerful statement, but really hurt people hurt people.
35:10
I mean, that's how it is.
35:12
And the only way you could you stop that is by actually recognizing that you were hurt in the first place and moving forward.
35:16
And to have a conversation with my mother that I've never had on a song is just it gives me chills just thinking of just hearing my mom in a way soothe and heal the way that I've always known her to do with her voice.
35:36
And we're just singing together and it's going to help people.
35:42
>> Were you in the room together?
35:42
We weren't, but she recorded it where I recorded location. >> Amazing.
35:48
>> It's like a full circle moment.
35:48
And she she helped me um do like the BGVs and sequencing of location as well. Full circle.
35:57
>> How has recording a song like that and what's happened in the last year, how has that influenced and helped your relationship with those closest to you?
36:09
Starting with your mom, like how has that helped the relationships in your life?
36:12
just makes me want to celebrate them.
36:14
I think just the support that I have from my friends, my family, my mom, uh it just really makes me want to celebrate them.
36:25
Like truthfully, there's two people who are directly above me.
36:32
The person who's like touching my head, >> it's my fourth grade best friend.
36:38
and the person above uh with with the animal print also a best friend of mine.
36:45
>> It it just makes me want to celebrate the people around me and bring them with me through this journey because they've always been there to support me.
36:51
So to have this conversation and to even play that song for my best friends, for them to shed their tears and for them to cry because they feel affected by it.
37:00
We've all, well, my friends and I have all seen the journey and have all seen the road.
37:07
My my family and I, my team and I, we've all seen how treacherous it's been.
37:11
And to be able to feel free where I'm I'm in an album cover where I'm actually surrounded by people and just not by myself.
37:21
>> And you, and by the way, everyone's having a really good time.
37:22
It says everything you need to say, which is like all bets are off.
37:26
Like I'm not standing out in the wilderness on my own next to a van anymore.
37:29
And I'm not like And uh you know all your stuff was you on your own. On your own.
37:34
Always on your own >> and now it's like you're not on your own anymore, man.
37:38
I mean you you know this is you get to be unapologetic yourself with people. >> There's power to it.
37:42
It's so powerful and it feels so good.
37:46
>> Some more music, more of everything to come. >> Yeah.
37:49
Cuz now you're not going to be able to get me out of the studio.
37:51
I'm like, "Oh my god, I still have so much to say." >> That's their problem. How to balance it all.
37:56
Make sure that everything stays on the road.
37:57
Um I have loved this conversation so much. I'm so happy for you. Thank you.
38:02
>> And thank you for bringing your honesty into this room and for being such a, you know, an open and generous collaborator in this conversation with me. >> Deserved. >> Thank you, man. >> I appreciate you. Love you. >> Love you, too.