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When did you um start riding horses?
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>> I was that kid that was obsessed with horses to the point of where I would draw pictures of them or um write poems about them and like stick them under my parents' pillows at night and like just be like, "Oh, this will convince them. Please, please." And it never did.
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So, it was kind of like a like early 20s pursuit, you know.
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But I would I mean, anytime in Texas I could ride them, you know, I would try. So, yeah.
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Have you ever really gotten a chance to ride?
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>> You know, like I've ridden on some trails and and I love the experience.
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It's just so beautiful and and like I said, they're so empathetic and so >> Yeah.
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>> kind of attuned to you. >> Right.
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>> I don't understand, but I love. >> Right.
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>> Um but I've never taken one out in the open field and had a chance to gallop.
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But when you first came here, was it a couple of years ago when you first got Mooney and started coming out here and riding? Was it >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
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>> Um and I had I had a horse before that, but my touring got so crazy that I had to sell him.
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And then um a couple Yeah, a couple years ago, sort of right right when I started making this album was when I got back into the horse world and I was really reminded how good it is for me and my mental health and I was like, "I need a horse again."
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>> How did you find yourself into this record?
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>> Typically before this, I had always had really long um creation cycles, you know, I would kind of finish out an era and then kind of start looking at what's next.
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And I've kind of like as time has gone on, I was kind of like, "Why am I doing that?"
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The the part that I love the most is the writing and the creation and the shaping.
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So, during Deeper Well, I just started writing.
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And I was also kind of simultaneously going through um a breakup. >> Yeah.
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>> And so, I was in this period of kind of like reevaluating a lot in my personal life and taking a lot of steps back and spending a lot more time alone, like a lot of solitary time.
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And it was you know, during this time that I I started going back to my hometown a bit more and um kind of reconnecting like like with horses and my roots and >> Yeah.
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>> in a lot of different ways and I was on a trip to my hometown.
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I was wandering around my little hometown which is so small.
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>> Which is called Golden? >> It's called Golden. It is so tiny.
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It's so cute, but it's really small.
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There's really not much there.
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Um but there was a a sign that someone had put up in the middle of town that says Golden, Texas, somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
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And I was just like, okay, that has to be a song, first of all.
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And it sort of became this like sort of aesthetic center and emotional center for that one.
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>> It's so interesting to me.
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The first time we met properly was at the very start of Golden Hour. >> Mhm. >> Back in 2018.
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You know, that album was such a an important tribute to being in love and being married and being with somebody and what it is to share your life with somebody. >> Right.
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>> the time that I've known you you know, you've been through so much in life, right?
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>> A lot of change and the albums all reflect that.
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And then this album, when I listen to it, feels like you've made real peace with yourself through that last 6 or 7 or 8 years.
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>> Yeah, I feel I feel like I have.
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Um I've grown a lot and I mean, thanks in part to therapy and um a lot of self-evaluation.
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And I definitely work a lot of that out through song.
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>> There's some really amazing landing strips on this record, some great realizations.
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Because you're such a curious person.
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One of the things I love about talking with you is you're always looking at something from a perspective and trying to figure out how to apply it to your life. >> Yeah, yeah. >> You know. >> Totally.
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>> Were you always that curious as even as a kid?
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Like going back as far as you can remember? >> Yeah. No, definitely curious.
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I I really think that people age faster when they lose their curiosity for things and I always want to know more.
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Like I just always I don't know if it's my like enneagram or like my sign or whatever the hell it is, but but I oh, we're not trotting now. >> [laughter] >> Wait.
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Um >> What can we can we just take a second to talk about Looney and what kind of horse Looney is and why you decided to spend, you know, a good part of your life with Looney?
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>> Looney is a baby palomino.
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I say baby, he'll be ooh, seven in May. >> Yeah.
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>> Um but he's a little love bug. He's he's curious. He's got a personality. But he's great.
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He's a quarter horse gelding and yeah, you know what's funny is like I was going on the search for like this big tall sexy bay, like dark colored horse, a little bit older and then he comes out and I'm like, oh, I'll give him a shot and riding him felt like floating on a little cloud and his [music] spirit was so calm and so sweet and I was like, this is the one. >> Yeah.
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>> And so it just was kind of a lesson in like sometimes what you think you're looking for isn't what [music] you're meant to have.
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>> [music] [music] [singing] [music] [music] [music] >> Looney. Is that Dolly? No. Ribs and mac and cheese.
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I'll look and there's more coming across.
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>> I hope they can just come chill with us. She is so stunning.
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That dark dark one that's coming up, her name's O'Hare. >> Yeah. And thanks for the ride. >> Yeah, thank you. Thanks for being down.
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>> Oh, it's so beautiful.
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I mean, I can understand why you sought this place out, especially at this point in your life.
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>> Yes, somewhere away from the craziness of the world where you can you can get your hands dirty, you can ground, and um and you know, you you really can't really be looking at your phone or be distracted.
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You can't bring when you're working with horses, you can't bring your own into the arena literally because they feed off of your energy so much.
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It's going to be handed right back to you.
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So, it's really like a it's a it's very grounding and it's very like it's a mirror.
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>> You worked really hard in the last few years based on this record from Deeper Well to now to really figure out what energy you want around you. >> Mhm.
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>> And how you want to bring a lit people into your life as opposed to assume that you should have people in your life. >> Yes.
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>> I going to be purposeful about that? >> Right.
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Sometimes you have to do some clearing and it it's not pretty.
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That's largely kind of what Deeper Well was is me making room, evaluating, going through a breakup, and just going, "Okay, like let's pause on putting people in back into my life."
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Like I want to do it because it's really adding something, you know?
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And now that I've spent the time alone, um I really feel like anything that that stays is because it really deserves a place.
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>> What did you let go of?
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And who did you let go of?
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You kind of you talked about why do I keep finding myself in the vicinity of these people? Like like >> Yeah.
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>> What doesn't work for you now?
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>> Well, any situation, friendship, or otherwise where I'm doing more work than the other person. >> Yep.
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>> There has to be equal partnership, equal energy exchange.
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And not to say that there isn't an ebb and flow sometimes in relationships.
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Like maybe you're not always able to match each other completely, but there should be a general sense of like we're giving the same.
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And I had to really like take a step back and look at a lot of friendships and I would rather have less but better.
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And so, it was kind of during Deeper Well, I was still promoting that record and touring it and um you know, kind of going through that that personal period of like, all right, I need some solitude.
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I need and I need to not be scared of that solitude.
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Um >> And you're figuring this out on the road when you're surrounded by people.
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>> Yeah, yeah, but then coming back to a house.
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And I think a lot of artists don't really talk about it.
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Sometimes that's pretty hard.
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It's like on the road you are surrounded by people.
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There's constant stimulation.
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You're on stage every night like literally like receiving the energy of thousands of people. >> Yeah.
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>> And then you can come home to a completely quiet house with no stimulation and and it is like day and night.
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>> had ended at the by this point.
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So it wasn't like you were coming back to something that was existing awaiting for you. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah.
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And so it was me trying to pioneer like a new a new space for myself.
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And what I actually learned is that I actually loved it.
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I was like, wait, I'm not scared of being alone.
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So now I don't have that fear anymore.
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So I'm like, okay, so anything I'm putting back in is because it's awesome and because it's adding to my life.
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And so that feels really good.
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I feel like I've grown a lot in that way and then a lot of these songs came from the perspective of that and being in this sort of >> [laughter] >> relatable being in this middle of nowhere so to speak kind of hanging out in this hallway where I was like, okay, I'm not not here and I'm not here yet.
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Like where where am I and what are those what does that sound like?
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What does that look like?
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>> Why go back to Golden? Why there? Why not somewhere new?
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>> I'm always going to new places constantly all the time.
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And I was thinking about this the other day but like part of my job is recreating that sense of home in so many different places almost every single day.
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Like so home can kind of be this this sense inside of you, you know, less about a certain place because you kind of have to like find that and recalibrate, you know, all the time.
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Like it could be hotel rooms on the road or a tour bus or >> studio >> Yeah, studio and it's like, okay, where's my sense of home?
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Like if if I can't ground and find that within myself like I'm going to be really lost. >> Yeah.
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You know, when you think back to that person who thought you had it all figured out back in 2018 and wrote that album that went on to win Grammy album of the year. >> Oh my god.
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>> feels like the whole puzzle was set, right?
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Like, "Oh great, I'm married.
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I won Grammy album of the year. I'm on this road."
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And then here we are 8 years later and and what an amazing journey of self-discovery you've been on.
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But when you think back to that person, who are you back then when it seems to be all laid out for you?
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>> I was really hopeful, a bit naive, I think.
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Um and it's funny, I think I've shattered a lot of They were like Halsey comments and they're like, "No, but if she can write Golden Hour and then it goes to Star-Crossed, like I'm Love is you know?"
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I'm like, "No, it's really not."
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It's that the beauty of Golden Hour and those songs didn't die with that relationship.
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It was it's carried on in many different senses with different people or even like myself.
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I'm like I think it would be giving that person way too much credit to say that like those songs are dead because the relationship didn't carry on.
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No, like and then also I like I really do believe that like divorce, breakup, whatever, it does make you a better person.
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Like I now know so much more about what I stand for, what I'm not willing to tolerate that I when I got married at 27 or however old I was, like I didn't I didn't have that full picture yet, you know?
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>> beautiful, beautiful album and a tribute to a time in your life.
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It belongs to us cuz we apply it to our lives.
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Some people still listen to it because their love has retained.
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Other people listen to it cuz like you will remind you of a time.
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It's Like reminders are good.
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>> 100% and like I think if we're lucky, we get to experience multiple loves in our lives.
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>> Yes, if you're lucky, you get to have your heart broken.
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>> If you're lucky, you get to be pushed on the stairs and spit in the face by love.
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Um no, you know what I mean?
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Like I've been lucky to experience that in different forms like since then and it has each time informed me and made me a lot better.
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>> Uh I think I've done very well not bringing up the sort of reference to your first record given where we're sitting right now and you know >> Wow.
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>> Which which one is it? Is it same? Is it different? Which trailer? Which park?
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Um >> It's the same trailer, Zane.
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>> same trailer, different park. Uh but you know what?
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This album does, when I listen to it, I feel you reconnecting to some of the things that you instinctively found before you became somebody that we fell in love with and perhaps there was a perception that you had to live up to as you know, while staying true to yourself.
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Like you got back to some of these these things that are just inherently you. >> For sure.
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And one thing that's interesting that I've been trying to work out in my mind is like I think it's going to be tempting for a lot of people to say like, "Oh, it's a return. She's returning."
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And like on one hand I'm like, I totally agree.
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And on the other I'm kind of like, I don't think I ever left.
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Um I've always been so inspired to look at the borders of country music and really play with like the balance of traditional and and modern.
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And I I mean, that's something that I love no matter what medium I'm working with.
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Um whether it's like I'm remodeling my house or I'm picking my clothing or whatever.
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I just love that you know, I love that balance and figuring out how to achieve that.
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But um yeah, it's it was really fun on this record to get back in rooms with a lot of the like my earlier uh collaborators.
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Um Shane McAnally, Luke Laird, Josh Osborne, even Brandy Clark got back in the mix on this one.
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And while I love like Ian and Daniel, those other people just bring a different spirit.
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And together, I thought that that would just be really fun to play with.
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And I think one of the things that I used to lean a lot on in my songs was humor. >> Yep.
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>> And I I love laughing.
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I mean, it's like one of my favorite things to do.
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And I feel like America just needs to laugh more.
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But I got away from it for a while because I was scared that I was painting myself into like a bumper sticker saying kind of artist or you know, lyricist or whatever.
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And I didn't want to do that.
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So I just was inspired to kind of explore more stream of consciousness kind of style of writing, and it just feels like home to me to return to like turns of phrase, double entendres, any window. It's just fun.
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>> So, dry spell is just fun.
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I mean, it's like even the chickens are getting laid.
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I mean >> you look over and yeah, like I said, it's like the the flies are doing it on the table and you're like, "Well, that must be nice."
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>> chickens getting laid is like that's like a proper one-two hilarity punch.
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>> I know it's been a while since you've been single, but when it when you are single in this day and age, it is hard out there. What am I going to do? Get on an app? I'm not doing that.
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>> Yeah, but for you as somebody who is a recognizable figure who has experienced genuine love before, coming out of that, finding some sense of yourself, what does that [snorts] look like?
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What does meeting people look like?
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>> I think it has to be completely organic.
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Like just very, very organic.
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And I would have people along the way during the single period be like, "I have a friend."
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And And I'm like, "I don't know.
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That never I don't know about your friend." >> to help, Kacey.
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They're just trying to help.
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>> trying to break the dry spell. Um yeah.
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I think it just has to be extremely organic, and but it is scary to open yourself up. It really is. >> Yeah.
14:38
Well, you do so much of it on your songwriting, and there's some songs on here which really do that.
14:41
Um "Hell on Me" is like one of the great songs I think you've written in it.
14:45
I'd love some words from you about that song.
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It closes the record for a reason. >> Yeah, thank you.
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I I like ending the album with something like that.
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It's like super, super rare, super vulnerable.
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Um and it felt like yeah, it felt like a good closer.
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>> Um you give Willie a shout out on there, and Willie obviously gets more than a shout out.
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I mean, you met him when you were a younger artist and have I'm sure shared many many miles under foot and stages and opportunities to be around him.
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Um to have him on this new album, what does it mean to you?
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>> Oh my gosh, anytime I can have the everyone's favorite gangster great grandpa on anything. I mean, I love him much.
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He's the patriarch of truth, country music.
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I mean, he's and he brings so many different kinds of people together, which is one thing I really love about him. >> Yeah.
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>> Um and he's just incredible.
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I'm I'll feel very lucky.
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This is our third time collaborating together.
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>> And he's just a one-take guy?
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>> Oh, he walks in, does the take, and literally that's it. That's it. So, it better work.
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He's like, "I'm in my 90s."
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Like, literally time is like I'm giving you 30 seconds and then I'm out. >> Yeah. >> I get it. He has earned that.
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He's a true American legend.
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Um transcends space and time. He's He's amazing.
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>> I mean, I think there was a maybe not a legitimate one, maybe like an imaginary one, but I like the idea of it being a wheel, some kind of Gallup poll they did about human beings in the arts that can hold their weed, and I think he's number one, Snoop's number two. >> Oh lord.
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No, if you've ever found yourself in a recreational smoking situation with Willie Nelson.
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>> Got to know too many people who have that, you know, the stories are legendary.
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You know, obviously it's going to be at the highest caliber. >> The highest caliber.
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I mean, But like I don't No, I don't smoke as much as I used to.
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I had to really like I had to take a pause cuz I feel like the busier that you get >> Yeah. >> I don't know.
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I just started getting really anxious and I was like, "Why do I feel so paranoid and crazy?"
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Like, I just need to kind of back off.
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But then the more you back off, like the less you smoke, the more it affects you, obviously. >> you got to practice.
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>> So, yeah, but um you got to be really careful with him.
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>> [laughter] >> You're just like, "I don't know how to form sentences anymore.
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My motor skills are completely gone and I don't I don't How do I leave?
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Like, how do I say goodbye? I don't really know." Yeah.
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>> Um so, rhinestone does it Rhinestone doesn't like a little double entendre and a little nod to the to the slow burn era? >> Oh, it is. It is. It is.
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Well, in rhinestone, you can get rhinestoned in a lot of different ways.
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But yeah, Willie I'd have Willie and actually like so So on Uncertain Texas, which is a real town in near where I'm from.
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And I just it's a it's a very very small town.
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It's a real place, real people live there, but I had this like funny thought of thinking of is it a town where no one can actually make up their mind?
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Like is it where all the boys live?
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Is it like, you know what I mean?
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Does I don't want to do I need to go I'm in this breakup period like I don't do I I don't want to go to Uncertain?
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Like is everyone can everyone make up their mind there?
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But anyway, I wanted Willie I was dying to have Flaco Jimenez, the great accordion player, um on that track and his his son was actually we were conversing with his son and and working on getting Flaco on the track when he he passed away last summer.
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And I just was like Willie and Flaco together would have been just this Tex-Mex dream that I was so crushed whenever it couldn't happen, but I tried to I tried to infuse his spirit in in my own way on there. >> Mhm.
18:09
I love the the Mexican influence that shows up on this track that speaks to your upbringing in Texas and you know, whenever I go to Mexico and I spend any time there, depending on where I am, what town I'm in or where I am, there's so many people from Texas out there cuz obviously, you know, it's it's got that >> I know.
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We're I mean, we're neighbors and and I I just am so inspired by the Mexican community and their resilience, their hard work, and their passion, and >> [clears throat] >> um >> And did you feel that when you were growing up there as well?
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Because look, I mean not not to get too political about it, but what's the reality from your perspective of growing up in a place like Texas and how diverse it actually is and how how how much of a capacity people have for it to be like that? >> Right.
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It's so woven into our Texas culture.
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I mean, you couldn't separate that if you tried.
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It's so woven in and like I mean, Texas was part of Mexico at one point and like we would not be what we are as we know it without Mexican influence. Like I'm serious.
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And so like even like our rodeo culture and our western culture, like so much of it has turned into its own thing, but I just think that there's this like interwoven spirit there, and it's it is sad to see it get vilified in so many ways.
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I think that um a lot of people can get really convinced that they're that something's being taken from them, and it sways them in that way.
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Um >> That's fear, isn't it?
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>> It's a fear-based thing, and I think there's honestly I really do think that there's room for everyone, and I think that there that we'd be better off for that. And like I love Mexico.
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I love Mexican music, and I was really inspired on this record to like explore where country music meets some of those regional Mexican sounds in my own way, you know?
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And it's like infusing some of those instruments, and really when you look at like traditional mariachi music uh and in traditional Mexican music, you see such a kinship with traditional country and western music.
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The subject matter, the the instrumentation, it comes from the same heart in a lot of ways, just different different regions.
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different regions. I love exploring where country music borders a lot of these other styles like for with Deeper Well, it was country music and seeing where it butts up to like folk and like Celtic music, and kind of like, you know, bluegrass and like where, you know, we
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have Appalachian um influence come trickle down, and and they brought those sounds, and those kind of converged into its own thing, and I just love I think country can be really it can be really universal in that way, and I'm I love like exploring those sounds. >> What did you take from making Deeper
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>> What did you take from making Deeper Well now that you've toured that record, and you've made another record, and you think back to that experience?
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What came with you from that? >> Mm.
20:40
That record is so calming for me, and I think that's what I see a lot of people attach to it as well as this sense of calm, and um it was my it was my doing therapy pretty frequently era.
20:53
Um but yeah, those songs will always have a really special place in my heart, and I think they're like there's a softness to them, um and but I think for this one I was like I just want to have a little bit more fun. Yeah.
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I think I'm ready for that, you know?
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>> I'm not surprised cuz there was shows I know in parts of the tour you did.
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I think you nearly a 50-day tour off the back of that and you were you were starting a lot of those shows with Cardinal, you know, which is a really powerful song to open a show with.
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I mean, it's a tribute to John Prine, who was a mentor and friend of yours. >> For sure.
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>> One of the great all-time songwriters and performers in the space of of storytelling.
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And I was always fascinated when when I think about why people choose a song which isn't really about that.
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We made it we here is get your hands up and it's like no, let's find a way to start this. What inspired that? >> Ah.
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I just I love Cardinal so much and you know, we had this like amazing levitation moment in the show.
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So it's kind of witchy and fun.
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But yeah, I just the song kind of exploring the other side, the supernatural, what we what we can see, what we can't see, you know, and I'm I am a believer in like I don't think that life is just all right here.
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I think there's a lot more to it and I so I love that song and it was yeah, it was fun.
22:02
I mean, it's not always a great time putting my set list together because I have a lot of mid-tempo songs.
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So I'm like I got to hang on to the the few high temps that I got, you know.
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>> more now off this record though.
22:13
Um Loneliest Girl, um I believe in Ghosts.
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>> Yep, yep, yep, which is a different kind of ghost that we're talking about there. >> of ghost.
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>> But yeah, I mean, getting ghosted is it sucks.
22:24
It's a real thing and yeah, it's it's really cowardly and when you share a connection with somebody and then they don't have the balls to face you and say this isn't for me anymore, which is totally fine and >> Yeah.
22:36
>> pretty acceptable, but just >> Yeah.
22:39
>> You you know what I mean and like it's so easy for people now to like to handle things like that.
22:43
There's just like less accountability and they're kind of onto the next thing when when the relationship really challenges them in ways that they might be uncomfortable with.
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>> I think it's going to be amazing for people to hear you be so open and honest about the disappointments of these relationships and the kind of pathway it can put you on of like I'm not going to keep going down this road.
23:02
I'm actually going to remove myself from this and have the courage to do so.
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I guess my question is now you know how to be with yourself.
23:10
>> [snorts] >> Do you feel more prepared or less prepared to be with someone else?
23:14
>> I think more prepared for sure.
23:14
I mean on one hand, it can make you more wary of like now when I see a red flag, I'm like oh, it's hard to not have one foot out the door, but you also have to realize that like humans will always be humans and like it doesn't matter like what who this person is or who this person is.
23:32
Like both are going to have flaws.
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There is no greener grass.
23:33
Like it's it's literally just what flaws you're willing to to put up with as your sense of normal. You know what I mean?
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And um I got them too that somebody's got to live with.
23:44
So but I but I do think that it's made me more aware of like I think I can just spot something sooner than like my younger self.
23:50
I would have held on for you know, a lot longer.
23:56
>> Some of the other people who show up on the record were just beautifully selected. Um Gregory Alan Isakov. >> Mhm.
24:01
>> Um what an amazing artist on a really beautiful song called Coyote. >> Yeah.
24:06
>> Uh can you tell us the story about that?
24:07
>> So I was at my place in Nashville.
24:07
It was daytime and I have this really big hill behind my house.
24:14
Um and I saw I was like, what is that?
24:16
There's always like animals.
24:16
I've seen bobcats, deer, um owls.
24:18
Like there's all kinds of stuff going on out there all the time.
24:23
And >> Is it where Pippa got bit by the rattlesnake? >> Yeah, in my backyard.
24:25
I was putting up Halloween decorations and she freaking I think she saved me from stepping on it.
24:31
But she yeah, she got bit.
24:31
She had to have the antivenom like Hi, buddy.
24:36
Um Yeah, didn't know that Nashville had timber rattlers or whatever. It was like, Jesus.
24:41
>> Right there on the porch. >> Yeah, on the porch.
24:42
It was like a little baby one and I was barefoot and I was like, oh god.
24:47
Um but anyway, so I saw two coyotes on my property hanging out together in the daytime and I was like, oh that's weird.
24:55
I got my binoculars and just like watch them for a while. >> Yeah.
24:59
>> Um and I wrote that down just as a song title and sort of kind of like just the idea of likening a coyote to someone who I guess is just a really emotionally avoidant person who >> Yeah.
25:13
>> you know, um may act like they kind of want the connection but when it comes down to it they're really fearful of it. >> Yeah.
25:18
>> Um and I love Gregory Alan's voice so much.
25:21
I'm a big fan of his records.
25:21
They just feel really good and um I thought he'd be a really nice voice of the metaphorical coyote, so to speak.
25:31
>> Which brings me to like everybody wants to be a cowboy, which is this idea and I I again this the writing on here Casey you address so many things that I think are on people's minds but you do it in a way with a with a really wry smile and but you but you're still addressing these things.
25:45
This idea of the sort of urbanization or at least you know, the tourist um obsession with this life that we're in right now.
25:52
I mean we are doing this.
25:53
I mean I am a townie right now shooting an interview surrounded by beautiful horses and I'm loving every second of it but this is a real life situation for a lot of people >> Mhm.
26:02
>> and I guess you've reconnected to that and and and appreciate that.
26:04
What do you appreciate about that life?
26:06
Why did you write that song? >> It's interesting.
26:09
Um I think that like in pop culture we see kind of cyclical trends um pulling western aesthetic kind of back in.
26:17
Like we saw it in the 80s with Urban Cowboy and an an an obsession with that and that aesthetic and then it kind of dies out for a little bit um and it's back again in a big way.
26:26
Western fashion looks so good on anyone.
26:28
It looks amazing and I and I I love to see that and I think that there's been a really big gravitational interest in cowboy culture, western culture.
26:39
I feel like I sense people in America right now really like wanting to feel and understand like what is [clears throat] America? What is American values?
26:48
Like what is the American spirit?
26:49
Like I just think there's so many ideas of what that is, and I think that like country and western culture and life is really appealing because it's grounded. It's It's simple.
26:59
I think people are craving simplicity.
27:01
And so, like, I completely understand that.
27:03
I just In the song, I'm just saying um >> It's more than a TV [clears throat] show.
27:08
>> It's more than a TV show.
27:08
It's more than like All you have to know is that it's just It's harder than it looks, that life.
27:13
And I just have a lot of respect for it. >> Yeah, same.
27:16
Yeah, so this is this is it for you.
27:18
This is further into this space of like the land and This isn't a a part-time stopping you. >> I think so. >> Could you do that?
27:27
Could you live that life?
27:29
>> Oh, I mean, I'm not saying I would nail it completely.
27:31
Um It takes a lot of discipline and routine, and I really struggle with that.
27:36
Um that's where the ADHD comes in.
27:38
But, like, the older that I get and the more that I've been so beautifully fulfilled by like this incredible opportunity to be an artist and tour and It's But, it's a very not It's It can be complicated, and it can be like It can be intense, and It's like, what's next? What is next?
27:58
Like, there's always You can always keep a machine going, and there's a huge part of me that like I'll be wanting to shape something creatively until I die.
28:05
Um that's where I get my energy from. But, what is next? Is it this?
28:10
Is it Is it another album? Is it another tour? Is it I mean, I'm 37. I'll be 38 this summer. I'm like, I don't know. I really don't.
28:18
>> that number mean to you at this point in your life?
28:22
>> Well, I think our 37 is different than our parents' 37. Do you agree with that?
28:27
>> Like, do you remember when your parents were in their 40s?
28:28
Cuz it seems different than now. Yeah. >> on the entire planet. I'm 52, and I >> Dang. What do you do?
28:35
Like, hot yoga, green juice? What is your thing?
28:42
>> I mean, I do take care of myself because I'm I'm getting, you know, to a point where it matters, like, you can't live that life anymore.
28:50
But you figured that out already. Look at this.
28:51
I mean, a day spent here with Mooney and these horses and that's more fulfilling for your spirit than eating in a 3-hour gym session in a strange way, you know?
29:02
>> Well, it's about balance cuz like I don't want just all of one or the other.
29:05
Like, I would love to have a world where I have both, but maybe I'm not beating myself up for not, you know, in the middle of finding that balance.
29:14
>> something that came out of being on your own is that you've calmed that voice, that self-flagellating >> so.
29:19
I think so cuz I mean, you can always do more or do it better or like hit the gym more or whatever it is um or refine a vision even more, but at some point you got to just go like, okay, this is what it is and it's okay. You know what I mean? It's like yeah.
29:35
>> What were you doing in Golden?
29:35
What was the day like in Golden in this in the short time you were there?
29:37
It was How many people live there, by the way?
29:39
What's the >> Um Golden's probably Oh, there's not an official population sign, but it's around probably 300.
29:45
>> How can you not have an official population sign when there's only 300 people to count?
29:47
I mean, that's [laughter] brilliant.
29:49
It's like, it's around 300.
29:50
I mean, you can literally count everybody in like 5 minutes straight.
29:54
You could have a meeting in the town hall and be like, that's the population of Golden. We're good. There it is.
30:00
>> like a a number like, you know what I mean?
30:02
And so when one person leaves, I just want there to be a guy like at the just Oh, now it's now it's 259. >> We just lost 0.
30:08
5% of our population, just drove out the out out of town.
30:10
Um >> No, it's I mean, it's uh it's very simple.
30:15
I think like if you were passing through it, you wouldn't really I don't know that you would be like, oh, there's much here, like, let me stop.
30:22
But if you were to stop, you would find a lot of like very hard-working um very good-hearted people and just like it's just very simple.
30:32
I mean, we were known for the sweet potatoes, uh the golden sweet potatoes at one point, and then they I don't know what happened.
30:37
We just don't I I don't I don't know if the farmers >> It's known for something now.
30:42
I mean, you've got an album that starts with a song called Middle of Nowhere and the whole hook is like I'm somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
30:49
You've taken literally the town motto and and written something around it, which is beautiful.
30:54
>> I had been really in this headspace where it felt really important for me to to really like really dig back into my roots and connect and and really find comfort in it and like enjoy and a lot of pride pride.
31:08
I'm proud being from the middle of nowhere.
31:10
>> I love this album and it covers so much ground from the beginning not to return but from the beginning to now.
31:15
It's like not just everything you've learned as a person but what you've learned as a creative person. >> Yeah. >> writer.
31:24
As a producer, as someone who can sit in a room and and and create your own body of work on every single level. >> Yeah.
31:30
>> This album must be something you're really proud of because it does it just connect so many parts of your life. >> It really does.
31:34
I feel like with there was like Same Trailer and then with like my second record with Pageant Material, it was like I feel like I got to really indulge in that like late 60s side of country that I love so much kind of the more glam side of old school country with like the big string sections and you know, like my love for Glen Campbell and all of that.
31:53
Um and then like cut to I felt really lost after that was like where do I go from here?
31:58
I bumped into like Ian and Daniel as producers and we had never worked together before and then Golden Hour happens and that's completely different.
32:05
But it's pulling in some elements of the other two in like little strategic ways and then well, life upheaval, divorce, Star-Crossed, that's a totally different thing.
32:17
Although if you really look at Star-Crossed, there was a lot of desert energy woven into that that one as well.
32:24
Some Southwestern kind of influence and then you know, Deeper Well, I feel like like Star-Crossed was kind of like electronic and affected and like layered and kind of harsh at times and that's just the way I was feeling.
32:37
And then, you know, like I kind of swung a little bit closer, like feeling more organic and a little bit more open and a little bit more warm and soft, with deeper wells, but introspective.
32:46
And then like I'm here again, and it's like yeah, I think it's pulling from all of those worlds in a way and kind of swinging back to some maybe closer to where I started and unintentionally. Yeah.
33:00
>> Looking forward to playing these songs live? >> I am. Yes.
33:01
Okay, so I'm designing the tour right now.
33:03
And it's going to be really fun.
33:05
I really love this concept of bringing the middle of nowhere everywhere else.
33:11
You know, bringing what what does this feel like, but we're coming to LA or we're coming to Brooklyn.
33:18
Um so I've been really wrapping my brain around that and having a lot of fun with building out that world in my mind.
33:24
>> Can I give you some flowers on the way out the door? Um >> Of course.
33:28
>> And I and I say this with the greatest respect to anyone I may use in a in a comparative way, but I feel that what you've done by kind of embracing all these different sides of country and tempo and pop music and electronic music is you laid the groundwork for pop music in in in some ways to explore that kind of writing and explore that kind of space.
33:52
And I love it when you post something in the first person I see who I follow that likes it is Sabrina. >> Aw, love. >> You know what I mean? It's just love.
33:59
And it's like I feel like there are artists like Chappell and Sabrina who just they know.
34:02
They know what you have meant to the community of writers who don't just want to be pop stars.
34:10
They want to explore space just like you do with curiosity.
34:13
>> I do appreciate that, and I I don't take that lightly.
34:16
I really don't, and I think that like we can all be inspired by things, and then it kind of carries on in different forms and like lives on and like you know what I mean?
34:24
And and kind of creates its own thing. I don't know.
34:26
I just I do a I do really appreciate that, and I'm honestly really have been really glad to see and not to make it about gender because to me it's just about good music versus bad music.
34:36
It's not about male versus female.
34:38
I could give a less what somebody's gender is, but it has been really cool to see women step into this forefront where they're creating really unique, really great songs. Like good songwriting.
34:50
Like >> Sabrina's funny as And like >> Yeah. >> pen is incredible.
34:56
>> Again, I think it's about it's a fun balance to figure out how something so country can be brought to a wider audience.
35:04
And there's something really charming about that. I get it.
35:05
Like I'm I'm inspired by that, too. >> Yeah.
35:09
So, how do you feel about life now the album is done and you know, you've you've spent all this time on your own.
35:14
And first thing you said when I saw you when you came out of your trailer was like, "I'm just getting used to all this again."
35:17
So, how do you feel about about everything right now? >> Ooh.
35:20
Um I'm currently trying to uh figure out the balance of promoting something that I'm really proud of that I really like you you want it to succeed, right?
35:29
Like you make it and you're like, "Okay, this is I want this baby to have a a life.
35:32
I want people to hear it."
35:34
But then also like really want to preserve my like mental like mental well-being and like my stress levels and like I haven't I've had an eye twitch for like the last 10 days that like won't freaking go away.
35:47
Um and I do feel I do feel stressed.
35:47
I just feel it's overstimulation.
35:50
It's just there's so much to put my brain on because I care so much about the details.
35:56
I cannot pass things off to a team of people just to figure out.
35:59
Like I literally involve myself probably to a fault in so many things.
36:03
Um but it's cuz I just care so much.
36:06
And the details make up the bigger picture.
36:08
So, um I'm just trying to like remember that it's a marathon, it's not a sprint.
36:13
And I want this album to have a long beautiful life.
36:17
And I've still got a tour ahead of me.
36:18
And um so, I'm trying to pace myself.
36:21
And I also make room for days like this where I can come out and get my hands dirty and not [music] look at my phone and like, you know what I mean?
36:30
And I'm not I don't have to like you don't have to be on.
36:31
You can just [music] kind of let the wind blow you where it blows you and then that's okay. >> [music] [music]