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Hello you sexy people out there.
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This is Tim Ferriss and this episode of the Tim Ferriss podcast has a very special guest, Josh Waitzkin, whom I met in 2007 after reading his spectacular book The Art of Learning.
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Josh you may know from Searching for Bobby Fischer.
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He was the subject of both the book and the movie.
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He's thought of as a chess prodigy.
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Although that term prodigy I don't believe applies to him well at all because he has a method for learning, mastering, refining any skill, whether that is chess, whether that is Tai Chi in which he's multiple time world champion, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in which he's a black belt under the the phenom, the Michael Jordan of the sport, Marcelo Garcia.
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And he's worked with people ranging from Mark Messier, six-time Stanley Cup winner, to Cal Ripken Jr.
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, to the top hedge fund managers in the world.
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He is a performance specialist and also a very dear friend of mine now at this point.
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And I ended up loving his book The Art of Learning so much that I acquired the rights to his audiobook.
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If you want to find that, it's read by Josh himself and you can just go to fourhourblog f o u r h o u r b l o g dot com and search for Tim Ferriss book club or go to Google and do the same.
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So without further ado, let's get straight to the meat of the interview. I hope you enjoy it. Optimal minimal.
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At this altitude I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.
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Can I ask you a personal question? No, I just did.
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I think I got it all figured What if I did the opposite?
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I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over a metal endoskeleton.
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So Josh, I figure we might as well start at the top and do a little retrospective.
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Uh what led you initially to write The Art of Learning?
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And of course that's how I was in many ways introduced to your work and then through our our mutual friend Max ended up connecting.
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But, what was the What was the reason you decided to write that book?
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Yeah, you know, I initially started thinking about about the idea of the book about 2 years into my martial arts life.
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Um so, I transitioned from chess into studying into meditating into studying East Asian philosophy.
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Then, I started getting into Tai Chi Chuan and ultimately into the martial application of it, push hands.
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And I started to experience this very interesting transition from from the principles of my level in chess just began to translate directly over into the martial arts.
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And I think I think it was primarily one experience I had that was something around 2 years into my Tai Chi training.
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I was giving a simultaneous chess exhibition in Memphis, Tennessee at a fundraiser raiser for muscular dystrophy.
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And I was playing 45 or 50 boards at once.
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I was so I'm walking down the middle of this big square of chess tables.
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Everyone's playing one game.
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I'm playing each of them.
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And about 40 minutes into the simul, I had this experience that was so interesting.
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I began to feel like I was riding the energetic wave of the game like I was in my push hands training. I wasn't playing chess.
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I wasn't thinking in chess language.
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I wasn't calculating variations.
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I was feeling the flow, feeling the space left behind like I would in the martial arts.
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And I had this realization, you know, I was playing beautiful chess, but I wasn't consciously playing chess.
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That the barriers between these two different arts had dissolved in my mind.
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And that's when I started to conceive of the idea of the book.
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And a lot of the process of I spent 5 years taking notes maybe 4 or 500 pages of notes in the book before I actually sat down and wrote it.
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And a lot of that process was deconstructing what I'd been doing rather intuitively.
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Um so, essentially what it felt like what was translation of what I'm parallel learning.
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These are two rather abstract terms.
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That's the language that I was using internally when I was first thinking about the book because it felt like I was just taking the essence of one art and translating it over into another.
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And then the process of writing it involved deconstructing what I'd been doing um somewhat abstractly into something that could be replicated more systematically.
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So the the question that jumps out my mind, which is a bit of a side note perhaps, but is simuls playing your 10, 20, 30, 40 boards simultaneously. Mhm.
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I I'll try to ask a better question than how does someone do that, but at what point what happens to a chess player when they go from an inability to play multiple boards simultaneously to being able to play multiple boards simultaneously?
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What is the sort of framework or thinking or or or experience that someone built up that allows them to do something like that, which to the average person seems like a Rain Man-like feat.
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You know, I think it's different for every chess player.
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I mean, one of the beautiful things about chess is that you can approach it so many different ways.
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And to be world-class, what you need to do essentially is express the core of your being through the art.
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I think that's just It's just true of many arts.
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And that's probably something we'll get into more deeply.
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Um so you can have a very mathematical person who plays chess mathematically.
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You can have a very musical person who plays chess musically.
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Someone might be much more kinesthetic, like myself, and sort of a feeling for flow and hidden harmonies and and almost a physically energetic relationship to chess. Mhm.
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Um when I first learned to play chess when I was 6 years old in Washington Square Park, it was it was a battle.
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I loved the feeling of of the of just going to into a fight with someone and finding these hidden harmonies and finding where these animal passions mixed with this technical complexity.
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And when I get late much later, when I got much better playing simuls, um it it it was sort of a higher-level manifestation of that same kind of dynamic.
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I mean, for me playing simuls was is is something akin to juggling a lot of balls.
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And and all of the the each chess I wasn't playing 40 different games, for example, separately.
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The flow of all 40 games would sort of coalesce into one larger sense of flow.
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And it was actually really interesting whenever often when I I'd give a simul and there'd be a youth competition and the the winners of the youth competition would play against me.
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And so sometimes kids would would cheat.
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They'd really want to beat me, so they would cheat.
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So I'd be walking around this big thing and then I'd get to the table and they'd have moved shifted the positions to try to win cuz if they could win it would be a big thing.
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And my experience when that happened was uh as if you had imagine you had like 40 balls up in the air and suddenly they would all crash onto the floor. Yeah.
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And and I I would know that they had changed the position not by reaching the board and remembering what the position was and then seeing they'd changed it it would initially be this feeling of the energetic flow had been interrupted.
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Um and then I'd have to reverse engineer myself back to that one that one game, that one component of the flow, and then I'd remember the game and then I would remember exactly what the position had been and then I'd say, "Aha, that this was the position."
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Um and then it would take me two or three times going back around to get that all the balls back up in the air and get back to that energetic flow.
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So actually for me giving simuls sort of felt similar to playing chess, one chess game.
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Um but that was my own relationship to it.
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I think that probably if you asked 10 different very strong chess players that all give somewhat different answers. Got it.
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Yeah, this you know one thing that blew me away uh was spending time with a friend of yours, Maurice.
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Uh when we went to Washington Square Park and seeing him play game uh at least for the first portion without looking at the board.
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And I'm not going to I won't give away too much of the too much of the the punchline since we we captured it all on the film.
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It was pretty amazing, but just his ability to track the board.
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Uh it seemed like by chunking portions of the board into sort of larger um like Gestalt pieces.
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I I I don't know if that's the best way to express it, but it seemed like his ability to seemingly remember all these disparate pieces was because he had it um broken the the board broken down into sort of uh component chunks as it were, but uh I don't want to take us too down that that fine line.
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Um let's let's shift gears.
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I want to What I'd be very curious to know is um you know, at this point what what because I know of course a little bit of the background, but um I want to dig into the details.
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What what type of people do you personally work with these days and why do they work with you?
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What type of things do you do with them? Yeah.
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Well, I have three major dimensions to my my creative life right now.
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Um well, maybe four if I guess the most important one is is my son Jack who who uh he's a little over 2 years old and love of my life.
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So, that's maybe the most important part of my life, no question about it.
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Um I run a nonprofit educational foundation and we have I'm called the JW Foundation, The Art of Learning Projects.
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Um and we have a couple hundred programs in schools around the country, internationally as well.
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And so, this is integrating these principles that I've been developing in in in schools, working with teachers, parents, and children around this individualized and thematic relationship to learning that I've been developing.
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So, this is one dimension.
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The other one is Iona, a martial arts school, a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school with um Marcelo Garcia, who's the nine-time world champion. You know him well, Tim.
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He's just made really the the Michael Jordan of the grappling world.
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Um so, this is world-class athletes training there.
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And then I I have I run a consulting business where I'm training people who are at the cutting edge of the finance world.
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And this is really interesting work cuz we're focusing on that last one or point one percent of the learning process, which is really my specialty.
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It's it's highly individualized.
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It's cutting-edge work on their learning process, their idea generation, their creativity, their performance psychology, their resilience. Um fascinating work.
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And you know, what what what I've have it's interesting because I I wrote this book called The Art of Learning years ago.
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And so people are always coming to me to speak about learning, but much of what I've been focused on in recent years has been unlearning.
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When I think when I think about that last that last movement, you know, from the equivalent of being say number 10 to number one in the world to number five to being number one in the world, it's much more about finding subtle obstructions, finding friction points, releasing them, um identifying cognitive biases that may be blocking your way.
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It's It's sort of It's the movement towards unobstructed self-expression.
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So if you think about about your creative process as a hose with with a big crimp in it, if you release it, just unbelievable pressure can be released.
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Um and a lot of what I'm doing with people is trying to move them from from very good to greater from great to truly elite um by just deeply individualized work on helping them really find ways to express the core of their being through their art, which is as you know a big theme in my life from when I played chess at my highest level, that's what I was doing.
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When I had a period of being really locked up in my chess career, which we can go into in more detail if you want, I was doing the opposite.
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I was trying to fit into someone else's mold and then ultimately when I transitioned away from chess into the martial arts, I returned to that experience of of self-expression.
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And that's what I really started to understand it very deeply.
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I think it was the crisis towards the end of my chess career which really laid the foundation for the work that I do today with with brilliant mental performers who are just trying to make that movement to the equivalent to world champion.
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It's to to jump actually back to Marcelo for a second cuz I've I've of course met Marcelo and he's just And you've you've you've gone to war with him and I've watched you.
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I've gone to war with him which I if there's anything at stake, I don't recommend. And He's a tough guy.
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He's caused me a lot of pain over the years.
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He's a tough guy but also a sweetheart of a guy and I he's so fluid.
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What I'd love to hear from you of course because in the in the art of learning which which some people might be familiar with, they read about your experiences in chess, your experiences in Tai Chi, the parallels between them and this sort of overarching, you know, framework for optimizing mental and physical performance if that's a fair way to put it which is you know, the the the art of learning these different techniques and strategies.
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What what have you learned through this third art of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?
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What are what are some insights or strategies that you've had since moving from Tai Chi which is in some way similar but also very different from Brazilian Jiu Jitsu which a lot of people would be familiar with through the UFC and mixed martial arts. Right. Right.
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Yeah, I mean to put it in context relative to my life.
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So the the art of learning ends with the 2004 World Championship.
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It ends with me describing the narrative of that which was just absolutely harrowing and crazy experience.
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Um I won't give the punchline but but it was it was really intense and and after this I decided I decided I wanted to be a beginner again and put on a white belt um literally and figuratively.
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And so I I took on this third major mountain in my life, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
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I was training out on the West Coast for about a year when I was actually writing the art of learning.
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I was training Brazilian Jiu Jitsu twice a twice a day.
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Um this was after I'd spent 5 years taking notes.
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Then I had the 2004 Worlds then I was writing it.
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Um I started training with John Machado out there then I came back to New York.
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I started training with Marcos Santos here and I started develop this relationship with Marcelo who is just the greatest grappler to ever live and we were doing a lot of private lessons.
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Um we developed a friendship.
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Um then he moved to Florida and I would travel to Florida to work with him.
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And ultimately I I made the decision I wanted to bring him to New York mostly because I I was at that point planning to make a run for the world championship in this art.
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And there was no better way to do it than to get my ass kicked by the very best ever live in the sport.
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And he's just a wonderful guy.
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Um and he's just unbelievable martial artist.
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And so we opened up the school together.
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And and I've been on the mats with him, you know, other than when we one of us has been injured and it's been a lot of injuries in these sports just all the time.
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And it it's been a fascinating experience.
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And Marcelo was so profoundly different for me.
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I I'm a really conceptual guy. I think abstractly.
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Of course, my foundation in chess.
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Mar- Marcelo is one of the most Well, he's the most kinesthetically overdeveloped person I've ever met.
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And of course, overdevelopment and underdevelopment tend to come hand in hand conceptually.
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Um Can you give Can you give me an example of that?
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What would be an example?
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Of overdevelopment and underdevelopment?
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Uh of kinesthetic What it means to be kinesthetically His physical intelligence is mind-boggling.
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I mean, when you come fishing with me, you know, you throw him on a stand-up paddleboard in 3-ft chop and everyone just flies off of paddleboards when they stand up on them. And he's just beautiful.
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I mean, he just find the balance points.
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I mean, I've never seen one seen someone learn so quickly how to handle um waves, boats, handling fishing lines, being, you know, free diving, being on riding waves on paddleboards.
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You know, when you when you're in the mar- I've been a stand-up fighter for many years.
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I mean, throwing is my core my core art.
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When I've doing stand-up training with Marcelo, I caught him with most of the throws in my repertoire one time.
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I don't think I've ever caught him with a throw twice. Wow. Which is amazing.
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I mean, I mean, he and I have guys who are world-class who I was training with, you know, I catch them thousands of times.
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And this is a guy he he he just you almost never see Marcelo get caught more than once with something.
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Um and it's amazing to see how he relates to the world through his kinesthetic intelligence.
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So, for example, if you're looking when we were looking for spaces for our school, we'd walk into a big room and I'd be thinking about the dimensions, you know, square footage, where this would be, where that would be.
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Marcelo would know if it felt good or felt bad. Yep.
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If he meets you, he's going to know whether he feels good about you or he feels bad about you.
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And his intuition is incredibly dead on, but he navigates the world through his kinesthetic intelligence. Yep.
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And it's been a really fascinating having a school with him and diving deep with him.
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Um because we've been having conceptual dialogue through these three and a half years or so, and he's really deepened conceptually. Mhm.
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Um but I have learned even more deeply that the importance of the lesson that there are many paths to greatness and to take a guy like Marcelo and to try to fit him into a chess player's, you know, hyper-conceptual mold would be terrible. Yeah.
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Because you'd be killing his shine.
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And he is so great because of his just unbelievable commitment to doing it his way. Mhm.
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He does things in in extraordinary ways.
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I mean, for example, you know how in these competitive arts everyone's very secretive about their repertoires. Yep.
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Um we have this program, which you know well, called MG in Action, where people Jiu-Jitsu guys from around the world log in to watch all of Marcelo's training sessions, his his sparring sessions, his lessons, everything.
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When he was competing in Abu Dhabi Submission Grappling World Championship and Mundials, which is the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu World Championship, we were we were streaming his sparring sessions every night.
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So, he was basically showing his competitors what he was about to use against them in two weeks, in three weeks, in four weeks.
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And his attitude about this, which is completely unique, is if you're studying my game, you're entering my game, and I'll be better at it than you. So simple, so pure.
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And if you think about it, it's really deep. Yeah.
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Um the opposite of what most chess players would do and most Jiu-Jitsu guys would do.
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And so, he's wide open to constant learning.
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And the other the beautiful thing about Marcelo is, you know, he people call him the king of scrambles, and if you watch his training style, he's always in transition, which is a really interesting idea to think about in a cross-disciplinary manner.
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Because most people get their egos involved in their training, and they're trying to dominate all the time.
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And to dominate in almost anything, you find a position of dominance, and you keep it.
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But Marcelo always lets his opponents move, and so he's constantly playing in transition.
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And so, if if you think about what world-class martial arts means, and you brought up, for example, Maurice Ashley and him playing um chess in Washington Square, it's similar.
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If you're at a much higher level than someone, you can always seem mystical because you're doing things which are outside of their conceptual scheme.
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The way that operates in the martial arts is, if you think about it through the lens of frames, right?
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If you and I are looking at a position, and in your mind there's this position leads to this position, which leads to this position.
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Um so, there's three positions.
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In my mind, if I'm constantly training at the transitions between these positions, these actually expand into these transitional frames become positions to me.
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And so, if I'm seeing 100 positions when you're seeing, say, two, then I can play in your blind spots, and it can seem mystical to you because you haven't trained there.
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And that's what Marcelo does.
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By spending all of his time in transition, he's cultivated the art to play in the in-between, which is really what level is all about um one of the core things that high-level that world-class martial arts is all about, playing in transition in gaps that you know, in your opponent's sight pattern.
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Oh, then no, I mean, observing and practicing with Marcelo, say, on the uh the guillotine or the Marcelotine, just blew me away because if you look at it as an uninformed spectator, or even just a moderately informed spectator, you're
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blown away by how fast he is, how effective he he is, but the the nuance of sort of eliciting movement, allowing space to open, manufacturing space by, let's say, applying pressure and then relieving it, is uh so subtle and so incredibly effective. I mean, then you start to
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I mean, then you start to notice it from these these principles that carry over to many many hundreds of possible positions, let's just say.
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It's really Yeah, it's it's really amazing.
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I mean, it reminds me of something I heard once from a musician, which was I don't know who the original quote is from, but he said that, you know, music is the space between the notes.
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And I was like, "Huh, that's a really interesting way to look at it."
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But but but what were you going to say?
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I was going to say, I mean, I I think that's just a gorgeous quote, and I think that's most great arts are are are defined by that that space in between.
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Yeah, well, it's like writing writing is the same way, right?
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It's like, you know, when in doubt, leave it out.
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It's just like, you know, it's I think yeah.
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Beautiful beautiful point.
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And you know, of course, the thing about Marcelo is that it can often seem initially that he's moving so fast, but what's incredible that he can also move very slow.
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And do things that you don't see.
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Um just like a great side of side of hand artist who's just practicing the art of illusion when we're not practicing it.
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Um it's amazing what can be done with intention, with controlling someone's intention.
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Um and this is a lot of my training in push hands related to finding ways to to essentially control someone's intention, so that you were ahead of them even if if they were ultimately moving first.
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Um you were there before they arrived.
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It's a fascinating um psychological component of of really high-level training in anything.
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Well, I I remember an interview, or it wasn't an interview, it Well, no, it was an interview, actually, with um one of the top K-1 fighters back in the day.
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Uh and they were talking about Peter Aerts.
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I don't know if you remember the Dutch Lumberjack, huge guy.
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And he he seemed fast, and I remember what people said.
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A number of opponents said, you know, he's he's actually not that fast.
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He's kind of a big lumbering guy, but he's so good at predicting timing that he sees you telegraph before you even have the thought to throw the punch, and he beats you to the punch as a result of that, but it's because he's he picks up on the cues faster than other people.
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And I thought that was very interesting.
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To to try to bridge this to something else, I mean, what you work with Of course, I'm not going to mention names, but you work with some of the most stunningly successful and famous um traders and and people in finance.
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I mean, some real kind of masters of the universe type folks.
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What What have you What have you found unique about that group of people?
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Uh let's let's let's just start with that.
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I'm I'm curious to know kind of what you've what you've noticed being as observant as you are about that group of folks.
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Oh, that's a big question. It is a big question. Yeah.
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Well, I mean, first first of all, I I I think the core principle to start with is that there are many paths to greatness.
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I mean, each one of these guys who's really world-class is doing it his way.
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And he is harnessing his eccentricities.
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Um he's cultivating or his or her strengths as a way of life.
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Um there's not an excessive focus on weakness.
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There's just an embracing of um deep deep study of the preconditions to someone's finest moments of expression, and building lifestyles around it.
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And that's a lot of what I do is help people understand what makes them tick on a very very deep level relative to um you know, their cognitive biases, where they locked up, and where do their greatest insights come?
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Um what kind of external conditions, what kind of internal conditions.
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And the ones who are really at the top are people who who have have mastered this art of deep introspection and taking the result of these introspective processes and turning them into training systems and into a way of life.
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Um and it's fascinating how how how you know the process works.
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You know what I do with these guys is I I um if after I do my initial diagnostic process I have ways of reinventing the daily architecture, the way they live their life so that they're for example aligning their peak energy periods with their peak creativity work.
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They're building lifestyles that are just relentlessly proactive um as opposed to reacting to inputs.
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They're building a daily architecture which is based on maximizing the creative process.
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And if you think about this relative to most people, um simple case in point is email checking, right?
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Most people when they finish a break, even even top guys in industries, when they finish a break whether they wake up first thing in the morning, what do most people do? They check their email.
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Um when they come back from a workout whether they check their email.
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Um when you know they come back from lunch what do they check their email?
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And so what you see is this whenever they're coming back from something after a break, they're soaking in inputs.
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And so they live this reactive lifestyle.
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Their their creative process is dominated by external noise as opposed to internal music.
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Um and a lot of what I work on with guys is is creating rhythms in their life that really are based on feeding the unconscious mind which is really which is the wellspring of of creativity, information, um and then tapping it.
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So for example, ending the work day with high quality focus on a certain area of complexity where you could use an insight.
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And then waking up first thing in the morning pre-input and applying your mind to it, journaling on it.
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Um not so much to do a a big brainstorm but to tap what you've been working on unconsciously overnight.
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Which of course is a principle that Hemingway wrote about when he spoke about the two core principles in his creative writing process where one ending the work day with something left to write. Yep.
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Often mid mid sentence, even. Right.
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So, not doing everything he had to do, which most people do because they feel this sense of guilt if they're not working.
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Um you and I have discussed this at at length.
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But leaving something left to write and then waking up and then second principle, release your mind from it.
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Don't think about it all night. Really let go. Have a glass of wine.
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Then wake up first thing in the morning and reapply your mind to it.
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And it's amazing because you're basically feeding the mind complexity and then tapping that complexity or tapping what you've done with it and and I mean this rhythm you know, the the the the large variation of it is overnight, then you can do micro bursts of it throughout the day before workouts, pose a question, do a workout, release your mind after workout, return to it, and do a creative burst.
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Before you go to the bathroom, before you go to lunch, before anything.
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And there's a ways of systematically training yourself to generate the crystallization experience, the aha moment, that can happen once a month or once a year.
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A lot of what I do is work on systems to help it happen once a day or four times a day.
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And when you're talking about guys who run financial groups of 20 to 30 billion dollars, for example, if they have a huge insight, that can that can have unbelievable value.
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And so if if you can really train people to get systematic about nurturing their creative process, it's unbelievable what can happen.
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And most of that work relates to getting out of your own way at a very high level. It's it's unlearning.
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It's the constant practice of true subtraction, reducing friction.
26:21
Um What would be an example you've mentioned cognitive biases a few times.
26:26
For those people who may not be familiar with that term, what would be an example of cognitive biases and how someone might work on them? Right.
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Well, there are a lot of cognitive biases that are that are specific to certain disciplines like chess or finance or philosophy.
26:43
Um but if we just think about it in terms of everyday life, um let's say we make a decision and we then feel the need to justify that decision. Mhm.
26:55
And so we make more decisions to justify that initial decision.
26:57
And then we basically get ourselves into this deep wormhole which is caused by the attempt to justify The sunk cost like sunk cost fallacy. Exactly.
27:08
So this is in the financial group group or in the world of cognitive biases it'll be sunk cost fallacy, right?
27:12
Um but this is very interesting for for example a chess player who makes a certain decision and there's a certain emotional and intellectual and time component to the value we put into the thought process behind that decision.
27:29
And what we often have to do is release it because the the position changes shape.
27:32
A very interesting way that this manifests in chess which you can think about rather universally is let's say that there's a certain evaluation to the position, right?
27:41
Um you and I are playing Tim and I have a slight advantage in the position and I'm nurturing that advantage. I'm nurturing it. I'm nurturing it.
27:46
Um and a lot of complexity I make a slight error and suddenly the position is equalized. Right?
27:50
So if I'm holding on to the past evaluation emotionally where I have the advantage then what I'm going to do very subtly is I'm going to reject positions that don't give me that advantage.
28:00
But if objectively I no longer have an advantage then I'm going to be reaching too far. Right?
28:05
Um and then I'm going to be rejecting things I should accept which will make my position slip more and more and more and you fall into what I call a downward spiral. Yeah.
28:13
So this relates to a lack of presence which really connects to a cognitive bias, an addiction to a past evaluation as opposed to a present one. Mhm.
28:20
Um so that's a very simple example of of a cognitive bias.
28:22
Um a mental addiction, a thought construct, something that we hold to be true because of some com complicated twist in our mind that it's no longer actually true.
28:33
And so of course a very simple antidote to much much of most of this is presence. Mhm.
28:39
If we can look at a moment or chess position or an investment decision or any decision with very a presence outside of kind of emotional inertia.
28:48
Um then we can often slice through just amazing amounts of of fat with just very very simple decisions.
28:54
So, if you think about the learning process, for example, and this is one of the things I love about your approach to learning, I I I the language that you and I use is, you know, I call you a master of deconstruction.
29:04
You look at the way people approach different sports and you find the biases, the false constructs. Right.
29:12
Um and you find the way to learn to to like a very straight path to learning as opposed to people getting mired in all sorts of tangled webs of complexity, which which are, you know, essentially caused by cognitive biases.
29:23
Wouldn't Isn't that how you'd put it?
29:26
Yeah, no, I think that's I think that's true and I obviously appreciate the the kind words.
29:30
kind words. I mean, I I think you and I have very complimentary approaches and like you've I think said before, and I tend to focus on the sort of 80/20 analysis as it as it applies to people getting up and off the ground as quickly
29:43
as possible to say, you know, the top whatever 5 to 10% of the general population, whereas what's so cool about our conversations, what I enjoy so much in part, is that, you know, you're really focusing on that that that final leap. How do you go from being great to
29:57
How do you go from being great to being the best, right?
29:59
And they're they're very they're they're very complimentary skill sets.
30:04
I I think that uh Yeah, what I'm looking at and this is a is a is a way to unearth cognitive biases.
30:12
And just as a side note for people who want to look into this, you can just go to Wikipedia and search list of cognitive biases and there's there's a long list, which is pretty fun to read.
30:21
Um and uh there are a number of books about these types of things, too.
30:25
Think Twice, I think, is another one.
30:28
Um the the question that I ask myself, and I I I'm always interested in the questions that people ask themselves, because I find it in my to to my mind that those that internal dialogue is what defines your day-to-day thinking and what you think you become.
30:43
So, it's so critical that you ask yourself the right questions.
30:47
And in my mind, what or I should say rather, when I'm trying to deconstruct say a sport, all I'll ask is to start with, you go, "What what rules are people following that are not required, right?"
31:00
So, you know, outside of the law and science uh and even within science and within law, reality is kind of negotiable.
31:08
So, I mean, a good instance of that is the high jump.
31:13
And Fosbury Flop, Dick Fosbury, he was really the first guy to go backwards over the the high jump.
31:19
And up to that point, there had been straddle kicks and all sorts of different approaches.
31:23
And he was, you know, ridiculed at first and then he was called a cheat because he won the gold medal.
31:28
And now everybody uses that approach.
31:30
And uh so, you know, having a a list of questions, right?
31:34
Who's good at this who shouldn't be is another one that I love to ask because you might find someone, for instance, you were talking about the different styles in in chess or jujitsu or in chess, uh you know, as sort of a reference to your first book, uh you know, you you have attacking chess players, right?
31:52
Then you have you have very different stylistic differences.
31:56
And you have very quantitative players.
31:58
Uh and you know, for the for the the TV show for the Tim Ferriss Experiment, I did an episode on poker.
32:02
And I've avoided poker my whole life because I viewed it as a game of chance.
32:08
And I had a a former computer science guy who said, "No, no, no, I'm not going to teach you to be lucky because I can't teach you to be lucky.
32:14
Uh but I can teach you to run some probabilities and only bet when you have a good likelihood of a positive uh positive outcome, right?"
32:23
And what what was so fascinating is you look at a guy like that and you'll find a highly quantitative say hedge fund managers, for instance, or or investors of different types, tech investors who who go to the World Series of Poker and they run the numbers. That's how they play.
32:37
And then there are other guys who are completely seemingly flying by the seat of their pants.
32:41
I mean, they're very kinesthetic.
32:42
They're playing an intimidation game. They're very physical.
32:46
Um and uh so asking myself, for instance, you know, who's good at this who shouldn't be if the assumption is you have to know be very good at math to be good at poker, right?
32:56
Who Who Who admits to using no math, which might be misinformation, but and let me look into how they do it.
33:05
And then the second question is you have they replicated their results?
33:08
Are there other people they've taught to do what they do to try to separate out the the nature from the nurture where possible.
33:14
But uh I I I want to come back to you know the the finance guys just for a second and to ask you about uh rituals and routines and I'm going to ask you about your own.
33:26
But what what are some habits uh and it doesn't have to be across the board with all these guys because they have such different personalities and approaches, but with some of these uh you know, really super high-level finance guys who are managing tens of billions of dollars, what are some of the habits that you've observed that you find interesting uh or rituals?
33:47
Well, let me let me answer that by describing some of the maybe uh the keystone habits that I recommend for people to internalize in in the field.
33:54
Is that is that a good approach?
33:56
Um Well, well, I mean, first of all, meditation.
34:01
I mean, we're we're speaking about this this theme of cognitive biases or or finance basically observing your mental addictions the moment they set in.
34:09
Meditation is as deep and as powerful a tool as um as I could possibly describe.
34:14
I mean, it's it's and then and maybe six or seven years ago when I was first talking about meditation with guys in the finance world, it seemed like some woo-woo strange thing for them to take on.
34:25
Um but as more and more people are integrating it into the process, I mean, you wouldn't believe how many of the most powerful players in the world are meditating very deeply.
34:31
Um it's just an amazing way of deepening um, deepening the creative process, deepening presence, um, expanding your energetic relationship to the world, gaining insight, um, and realizing that most of the thinking that we do basically springs from mental addiction.
34:50
And much of people's lives are spent in an emotional swirl, which is a reactive one.
34:55
And having a relationship's presence, which allows you to see through the the kind of the illusion of the that emotional swirl or of those mental addictions.
35:02
I mean, meditation is an incredibly powerful tool.
35:04
So, I know you know, like people have been meditating since I was 17, 18 years old.
35:09
I know it's a big part of your life as well, Tim.
35:12
So, that's a very, very important habit.
35:13
The idea of waking up first thing in the morning and turning your mind to creative work pre-input as opposed to checking email and getting reactive, um, opening up your channel to the unconscious mind first thing when you wake up in the morning.
35:26
Doing the same ending the work day with quality. Hugely important.
35:30
Uh, I remember when I went skiing with Billy Kidd, who as you you might recall was one of the the great downhill racers from back in the I think the '60s Olympic ski team. Awesome dude.
35:39
Now he's he's out in Colorado wearing a cowboy hat.
35:41
Um, just timeless guy, brilliant dude.
35:43
And, you know, he was saying to me years ago when I first skied with him, "Josh, what do you think are the three most important turns of the ski run?"
35:51
And, you know, I I've asked that question to a lot of people since.
35:52
And most people will say the middle cuz it's the hardest, the beginning is the getting momentum.
35:58
Billy describes the three most important turns of the ski run are the last three before you get in the lift.
36:01
And it's a very, very subtle point.
36:05
And it For those of you who are skiers, you know that you know, that's when the the slope is leveled off, there's less challenge.
36:09
Most people are very sloppy then, they're taking the muscles off of um, they're taking the weight off the muscles they've been using, they have bad form.
36:15
Problem with that is that on the lift right up, unconsciously you're internalizing bad body mechanics.
36:18
As Billy points out, if your your last three turns are precise, then what you're internalizing on the lift right up is this So, I carry this on to, you know, the guys who I train in the finance world, for example, ending the work day with very high quality, which opens up, for one thing, you're you're internalizing quality overnight.
36:39
And we're nurturing themes as well as skills, right?
36:41
It's one thing to learn skills, but the higher order is to learn themes or or meta themes that will ultimately spontaneously opens to the into the internalization of hundreds of of what I would call local habits.
36:55
And And so, if you're practicing quality, you're you're deepening the muscle of quality.
37:01
And you're also focusing the unconscious mind in an area of complexity, which you'll then tap first thing in the morning.
37:05
So, this is a core habit.
37:05
Um journaling, certain postmortem processes, reflecting on the, you know, doing ending your day with a reflection on of the quality of the work, um what are the core areas of complexity that you're that you're wrestling with. Um hugely important.
37:19
You know, one of the Would you do that Would you do that immediately after the end of the work day, per se, before bed?
37:26
How would you time that if someone wanted to try this themselves?
37:32
I time at the end of the work day before The problem with doing these things end of right before bed is that then you're sort of consciously going to bed thinking about these things. Right.
37:40
At that point, I find you want to release.
37:41
So, the I mean, a very core idea is you know, when you go home, as best you can, unless you're red hot inspired, release your mind from the work.
37:48
Um it's very important to give your stress and recovery. Um core habit, right?
37:52
You want to be turning it on and turning it off and keep teaching people to turning it off is huge part of teaching them to turn on much more intensely.
38:01
And so, stress and recovery workouts, interval training, um and meditation together are beautiful habits to develop to cultivate the art of turning it on and turning it off.
38:11
So, if you're undulating your heart rate, for example, between 170, 172, 174 and say 144, the practice of lowering your heart rate over the course of say 45 seconds is akin to falling asleep, releasing your your tension.
38:24
Um and then as you're pushing your heart rate back up, you're learning to turn on.
38:28
So, you're using a physical metaphor to train at the art of turning on incredible intellectual energy and then turning it off.
38:35
Marcelo Garcia, who we were talking about, one of my most beautiful memories is of him in, you know, world championship fight before going into the semi-finals.
38:42
Brock has bleacher, everyone's screaming, yelling, he's sleeping.
38:45
Sleeping on the bleacher. Wake him up.
38:47
He sort of stumble into the ring.
38:49
You've never seen a guy more relaxed before going into a world championship fight.
38:52
Um and then he can turn it off so deeply and then when he goes in the ring, you can't turn on with any more intensity than he can.
38:58
And his ability to turn it off is directly aligned with how intensely he can turn it on.
39:04
So, training people to do this, have stress and recovery undulation throughout their day.
39:07
Um and then, you know, thematically this ties into again this internal um proactive orientation.
39:15
And, you know, building a daily architecture which is around understanding your creative process as opposed to reacting to things, feeling guilty that you're not working.
39:24
Really teaching people to tap into their internal compass.
39:28
Um so, those are some of the core themes and habits that I would that I would um bring up first.
39:33
But, I could go on that I could spend 3 hours talking about this subject. Let's do it.
39:41
I will will will have will have a part two.
39:44
The the meditation I wanted to touch on for a second.
39:47
I've been as you know, I've been taking that very seriously for particularly particularly the last 6 months or so.
39:53
Uh and I received an email the other day from the the teacher that I used for transcendental meditation.
40:01
And there are many different types of meditation. I'm I'm curious.
40:04
I'm going to ask you about what how you format your own meditating in a second, but there many different types.
40:10
I have my issues, my likes and dislikes as it relates to almost all of them, but uh I an email with a link to an article uh and the the title is Bridgewater founder Ray Dalio credits transcendental meditation for his success.
40:23
And his his For those who don't know, he's the founder of the world's largest hedge fund uh Bridgewater Associates. They have what?
40:28
A hundred billion plus under under management, I think.
40:31
Um, and his quote his quote is meditation more than any other factor has been the secret to whatever success I've had.
40:37
Uh, that is a a hell of an endorsement.
40:39
Uh, so it's for me it's been uh getting over that resistance to what I perceived as sort of a woo-woo new agey type thing.
40:50
Um, and the uh the ability to sort of view it almost as just a warm bath for the mind uh where I'm taking a a mini vacation from my own brain in a way, which may or may not uh depending on who you ask be the most helpful way to look at it, but I found that uh a very a very kind of useful lens through which to to view it.
41:11
But how do you uh what what uh if there is a particular type of of meditation you follow, what is it?
41:15
Or or how do you uh personally meditate?
41:20
I mean, what do you think of or not think of? How long do you do it? Etcetera.
41:25
Yeah, I mean, when I was in 17, 18, I started studying um very simple contemplative um and quiescent Buddhist sitting meditation.
41:34
Um, where I would focus on my breath um and you know, this is when I was a late teenager.
41:42
And then I I I started getting involved with tai chi.
41:44
And I started studying East Asian philosophy particularly.
41:48
And this is where I got increasingly into moving meditation.
41:53
Which which is the the the most deep practice or the practice that I've personally done most deeply.
41:57
Um, tai chi form meditation.
41:59
Tai So the the the meditative form of tai chi is sort of the the essence of the art.
42:04
And then the fighting application is what I was competing in.
42:09
And so I spent many years meditating four, five, six hours a day through tai with tai chi.
42:17
Um today I combine my my tai chi practice with sitting meditation again. Mhm.
42:23
Um I mean I most people when they when they enter meditation what I what I suggest is they just practice very simple sitting meditation um following their breath.
42:31
And it it it's a practice which doesn't have to be very complex.
42:33
They can for example just sit either cross-legged or comfortably in a chair and have their and follow their breath.
42:41
And it's very interesting because they will notice after one or two seconds that their mind starts racing off.
42:44
And usually what happens when you have really driven guys who are trying to meditate for the first time and their mind races off they get they get all pissed off.
42:51
They're just like angry frustration They feel like they're failing at meditation.
42:57
And one of the most important things to to do is to embrace the fact that meditation isn't about perfection.
43:02
It's about the return to breath.
43:04
So, when you find your mind racing you observe that and you return to your breath.
43:09
And that's a tough emotional hurdle for a lot of guys.
43:12
And it it's very interesting cuz over time, you know, you you know the metaphor of of basically the mind is a is a wild stallion that over time you're you're taming and you you ultimately learn to still it.
43:21
It's racing, it's it's it's bucking, it's it's pulling against anything you put it you any kind of line you put on it.
43:28
Um but ultimately it the circles get smaller and smaller and and you you learn to to observe when your mind is getting caught up in some kind of mental or emotional addiction more and more quickly and fluidly.
43:41
And the return to breath becomes easier and easier.
43:43
And it's it's very interesting by the way as a competitor because I relate to the theme of of channeling emotion or fear.
43:50
Whatever is rising you know, as a world-class competitor in very much the same way we might speak about meditation.
43:57
Um you know, I I I spoke at a a conference on grit recently and it was very interesting for me because for the most part grit when I listen G R I T resilience Got it.
44:07
G R I T, yeah, which is a of course core educational principle in a lot of charter schools these days, hugely important teaching kids to be resilient. Mhm.
44:15
Um, and it's very interesting because what when I hear people speak about resilience um from and this is sort of a we're moving a little bit aside from meditation but we'll bring it back.
44:24
Um, the focus is on for example, overcoming difficulty um, suffering learning to to basically push through.
44:35
What people don't realize is that world-class performers, what they've done is they've reoriented their relationship to suffering or that to the point of resistance.
44:42
They've learned to embrace it.
44:43
They've learned to see um, the beauty in these moments where there's pain because that's incredible room for growth and I think that a lot of what you learn to do in meditation is observe the addictive way you might be defining something.
44:57
And if you want to, you can simply alter that definition.
44:59
So you can change your relationship to pain or the rain or a huge storm or fear or anger. Mhm.
45:09
So for example, people from the outside will use the term fearlessness, right? Mhm.
45:13
Um, but if you speak to any great soldier or SEAL team member or fighter or UFC guy they'll tell you mixed martial arts, right?
45:21
Great you know, world-class fighter they'll tell you that they feel fear.
45:25
They just know how to sit with their fear and how to work with it and how to channel it.
45:28
So the idea of fearlessness is sort of a false idea which is imposed from the outside by a spectator.
45:34
Um and when you observe world-class performers, what they've learned how to do is harness fear, nerves, anxiety bring them in, embrace them, have a working relationship with them and channel them into intensity.
45:45
And meditation is an incredible form or or vehicle which you can do this because you learn to observe where you have addictive relationships and you realize that they're not absolute and you can actually transform your relationship to any of these um, thought patterns, thought constructs, cognitive biases, or emotional patterns.
46:05
Yeah, I was you know, I was looking at a a quote as you mentioned that because I wanted to get it right, but it's one of my favorite quotes from Cus D'Amato who trained Mhm.
46:14
uh boxers like Floyd Patterson, you know, Jose Torres, most famously perhaps Mike Tyson.
46:18
And he would say, you know, the the hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero uses his fear, projects it onto his opponent, while the coward runs.
46:27
It's the same thing, fear, but it's what you do with it that matters.
46:30
And I uh I started meditating uh and gave up meditating many, many times because I had the the response that you mentioned about type A personalities where I'd be sitting there and I thought the objective was to quiet my mind.
46:45
And I'll come back to that in a second.
46:46
And so when So when I failed at quieting my mind because it would be ticking off the to-do list or being like, "Ah, that who said A, B, and C to me the other day."
46:54
And I'd just like harp on these ridiculous things and I'd get then pissed and then I'd get pissed that I was getting pissed.
46:59
And then then I'd get up and have a cup of coffee and like storm out of the house which didn't seem like a productive meditation session.
47:09
Uh I I I actually started doing it consistently when uh I kept it really short.
47:14
And a friend of mine recommended this where I would number one be comfortable.
47:18
So I would I would sit down, but to avoid back pain, I would actually lean against a wall which is very commonly thought of as a big no-no.
47:25
So I'd lean against a wall to to keep my back straight.
47:28
And I'd listen to one music track.
47:29
I'd listen to one song every morning, the same song as a cue, and I'd just pay attention to my breath and focus on being uh an observer of my thoughts, but not trying to control them at all.
47:41
So if if all I did was think about my to-do list the entire time, that's fine as long as I'm paying it attention to my breath.
47:49
And that non-attachment to an outcome, i. e.
47:52
controlling my thoughts, was was very helpful.
47:54
And the the format that I followed subsequent to that Um and you know we can have a longer conversation about you know why it finally clicked, but the short answer is accountability.
48:04
I had a teacher who was going to give me a hard time if I didn't do my meditating and then report back.
48:08
Uh was tw- 20 minutes, let's just say 10 to 20 minutes twice a day.
48:14
And what I found was by allowing the thoughts to occur and not judging myself because let's say I'm thinking about email or the grocery shopping I need to do or whatever, just letting that happen but getting good at observing it I was able to then have more emotional awareness later which would prevent cognitive biases and bad judgment.
48:35
So what I mean by that is as a concrete example, uh I'm a I'm an impatient guy.
48:42
I always have been uh ever since I was a little literally little kid like 12 13 years old.
48:47
If I was at the restaurant with my mom and dad and and uh the server didn't come over and pour water after we'd been gone dry for like 5 minutes, I'd just get up and walk into the kitchen and like grab a pitcher and walk out.
48:58
And uh I'm really impatient and uh I get angry.
49:03
I I mean I get angry about things that I view as deliberately slow and sloppy.
49:08
So for me uh and and that anger can be harnessed sometimes into really productive aggression, but it's also it wears you down at both ends.
49:16
Um and so what I found is after meditating consistently for even a week or so, uh when that anger would start I was better at not just become I I was better at observing Tim as a third person, right?
49:35
Like to Oh, look at that.
49:35
Like Tim's getting angry about something really small and stupid.
49:39
Uh as opposed to simply becoming angry and then causing problems for myself whether it's just internal or interacting with other people.
49:47
So uh yeah, I I agree with you uh completely on on the meditation and I love that image of you as a 12-year-old racing to the kitchen bring up the water.
49:56
It's such a great metaphor for your life, isn't it? Yeah.
50:01
Find different examples of that in the process and you race in there and you get the water and you slice right through them. I love it.
50:08
Uh so let's let's do a couple of rapid-fire questions that are that are all tied into this this this stuff, but we can just do short questions with a couple of short answers.
50:16
Um So uh so complete the following statement.
50:22
My favorite time of day is blank.
50:25
My favorite time of day is holding my son in my arms after I've done my I've woken up and done a 20-30 minute journaling session.
50:32
I get my son I I bring him downstairs and I give him his bottle of milk and I hold him and I and I look him in the eye and I tell him how proud I am of him and we talk about what he's thinking about and what he's working on while he has his milk.
50:45
I think it's the most magical part of my day these days. That's in the morning?
50:51
Yeah, that's uh I wake up I I I wake up about half an hour before him.
50:53
I do a big creative burst.
50:56
Um This is a big you know as a parent your sleep patterns change you know pretty dramatically, but I I found this rhythm where I wake up and I do that burst and then I and I just love that first morning energy time with him and we have this deep connection while he's having his um his milk and we talk about What time do you wake up?
51:17
I usually wake up around 7:00 7:05.
51:22
And he usually wake up around 7:30 7:35.
51:25
I'm endlessly fascinated by morning routines, so this might seem really digging like I'm digging into the minutia, but when you wake up it sounded like you wake up and you have 30 minutes to journal before bringing your son downstairs.
51:39
Do you brush your teeth, drink a cup of coffee, any of that before you journal or do you just roll out of bed, walk into the office, and sit down to write.
51:49
My routine is that I I roll out of bed, I brush my teeth, I go downstairs, and I sit down um with my journal, and I start writing.
51:57
And I immediately apply myself to to a reflection that I sort of targeted my mind at in the um in the evening or late afternoon before.
52:07
Um and then when I when after I just let it rip.
52:11
I have a big creative search.
52:11
Um and then once I hear my son, I go get him, and then then I have my breakfast um usually a bowl of oatmeal um while he has his, you know, after he has his milk, and then I I have a cup of coffee about half an hour after that. Cool.
52:27
Related to I you know, you strike me as a happy guy.
52:31
Obviously, we all have our challenges. Then again, Yeah.
52:37
uh like uh the place I'm getting remodeled at the moment.
52:43
Which which which I won't I've been down that road.
52:46
I won't go into a diatribe at the moment.
52:47
I'm very excited about it, but it's my uh you know, 12-year-old Tim wanting to go get the water pitcher that's not been very helpful right now.
52:55
Uh the What are three things, could be two, three things that you believe you need in order to be happy?
53:00
And that could be for you, uh could be for people in general.
53:03
I'm just curious uh what how how you would think of that question or answer that question.
53:11
You know, one of the great things about you and I being dear friends and having these conversations is that you tend to be very good at thinking in bullets and list of three things, and that's not how my brain works.
53:19
And I can tell you the essence of how I relate to that question. Yeah.
53:23
So, I I'm not going to give you a three three bullet answer cuz I just that's just not how this brain operates.
53:26
I I mean, I I I've built a lifestyle around being true to myself. Uh-huh.
53:34
Largely, maybe a big reason is because of, you know, my mom used to always tell me as a kid to follow my heart, follow my dreams.
53:40
Um I never made decisions for money or for external things.
53:46
Um, and I always trusted if I was true to myself, these things would follow.
53:50
And so, you know, my professional life, my foundation, my school, I I I only work with people who I feel are are ethically aligned, who have a good energy, who I feel really good about intuitively.
54:04
Um, I keep empty space in my life.
54:04
Um, I rarely have more than one or two meetings a day.
54:10
Um, my life is about quality not quantity.
54:13
It's about depth not breadth.
54:16
Um, our business is based on doing very, very deep and and very excellent work with just a handful of people.
54:23
And so, I I I really like to cultivate quality as a way of life.
54:25
And I I I believe that when you're not cultivating quality, you're essentially cultivating sloppiness. And so, Right.
54:32
you know, the idea of building the musculature of quality and and being like a heat-seeking missile for me.
54:35
I take great pleasure in observing the beauty of the little moments in life. Mhm.
54:41
Um, and so, for me, my lifestyle is based on, you know, I working out every day.
54:45
I I just focus on structuring a day that will allow for my creative process to be rich. I'm present with my son.
54:51
I have a My office is at home.
54:52
I'm with him in the morning.
54:54
I'm with him See him throughout the day.
54:55
I'm with him Give him his bath and read him a story night. I'm with him.
55:00
I've eliminated almost all travel that takes me away um from from my boy.
55:02
I'm going to a conference weekend.
55:06
I'm taking my wife and my baby are coming with me.
55:08
Um, and I I I I really build a life around being true and I don't build it around anything material.
55:17
And and that's really the essence of how how I personally relate to this question.
55:20
Of course, there's different solutions for everybody, but um but that's what works for me.
55:23
This is something that that is being true to oneself.
55:25
I think that most people struggle with, right?
55:30
And I think it's it's a I think it's a goal that most people have at least in the abstract, but I'd love to dig into uh some concrete details of that and perhaps you could share uh an example of something you changed like maybe where you got slightly off the path and made a correction to be true to yourself and what that looked like. Uh I I just Yeah.
55:55
Well, I mean for me a a very clear example is is my public life.
55:59
So, I I was a young kid, fell in love with chess.
56:03
Um when I was, you know, I I won my first national championship when I was a late eight, early nine.
56:09
Um when I was 11, a book came out um Searching for Bobby Fischer.
56:11
Um and then when I was 15, a movie came out about my life based on the same book that my dad initially wrote.
56:17
And so, I was really thrust into the spotlight.
56:19
And so, I you know, without me wanting to, I was just, you know, a young passionate artist.
56:23
I loved playing chess and competing in chess.
56:27
I was put out there and I had paparazzi following me everywhere.
56:29
I was um you know, I was really living in the in in the spotlight in a way I wasn't necessarily emotionally prepared for.
56:38
And I I felt in my teens how that challenged my love for this art cuz my love for it was so pure initially.
56:44
Um and and and that tension, you know, that that fight, that fight to stay true to my art um taught me some very deep lessons.
56:52
And then I in you know, after I finished high school, I I took off and I left the country largely to study chess very deeply undistracted from publicity.
57:01
I moved to Eastern Europe.
57:01
Um my girlfriend at the time was from Slovenia.
57:06
Um no one knew me out there and it was a beautiful life.
57:08
I just left the public world.
57:10
And since then, I've you know, when I came back, I've had these periods where I've been exposed to publicity and I've been in periods where I've been, you know, deep in a cave and and moved away from it.
57:20
And and I think that this is a very clean example of what of I mean, other than you, very few people dragged me out of the public eye.
57:29
Throw a throw a net over the bear and drag him out of the cave.
57:33
You have a way of doing that to me.
57:35
Um but but in a beautiful way.
57:37
And I mean I I found that the privacy of my life um Yeah.
57:42
not doing things, not getting caught up in in you know, the swirl of fame or or seeking external adulation Mhm.
57:49
is a very important thing for me personally.
57:51
And everyone's different, but but for me I mean I I may maybe I have a little bit of a um an over sensitivity to this because of of my my youth because I was out there so intensely Mhm.
58:02
as a young as a young guy.
58:02
And I think it really challenged my love for the game.
58:07
Um that's an example of of the kind of decision that I'll make.
58:10
I mean I I think it's very important for me to to to live the the vast majority of my life privately.
58:16
I I don't do very much that will allow me to be recognized in the street and live my life as a celebrity. Mhm.
58:22
Um cuz I've gone down that path and I I love my privacy. Yeah.
58:26
Um and I also I've built you know, a career around my business is working with people who are similar, who are not seeking the limelight who are not out there on television every day, who are world class but are no one around them um other than people you know, very close have any idea that they have been so incredibly successful from a monetary way.
58:44
They try to raise their kids um not to be spoiled.
58:47
Um the kids are gritty kids that they're you know great philanthropists, um really good people. Mhm.
58:55
And and you know, I I love I'm very drawn to people who have been enormously successful um but don't get caught up in the external crap that comes with success. Mhm.
59:05
Um and are real, you know, who who are living their life tapped into the love.
59:11
Um and that's how I try to live.
59:12
What are What are some of your What are the books let's just stick with books for a second that you've either most gifted to other people or most recommended to other people.
59:24
Uh because there are many people listening to this probably who uh won't necessarily have the opportunity uh to interact with the types of of high-level folks that that you and I are are so fortunate to have the chance to interact with.
59:40
But, they can do that vis-a-vis books or narratives, uh documentaries, etc.
59:45
What what are some books that have had a formative impact on you?
59:51
I mean, so if we go back to when I was 17, 18, Jack Kerouac had a huge impact on my life.
59:55
On the Road, Dharma Bums.
59:57
This was This was just These are the you know, his books were what initially kind of tapped me into the idea that life could be ecstatically beautiful.
1:00:05
And I moved into studying um Taoism, so Lao Tzu, um the Tao Te Ching, hugely um just unbelievably deep.
1:00:13
But, of course, the translation of that book that you read will be formative.
1:00:16
And I My favorite translation is the Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English translation of um the Tao Te Ching.
1:00:22
Um Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, I think one of the most important books ever written by Robert Pirsig, who has become a a very dear friend over the years.
1:00:30
He he When my When The Art of Learning came out, my publisher asked me, "Who would you love to read this book?"
1:00:35
And I said, "Well, the one person that I'd really want to read that book is um Robert Pirsig."
1:00:40
And but he To me, that was just, you know, he he he lived like a deeply secluded life.
1:00:45
Um but they somehow managed to get him a copy of the book.
1:00:49
He got in a big bushel from his publisher, and he read it, and he contacted me and wrote I mean, I was so honored that he that he was moved by it.
1:00:55
And he and I over the years have developed really interesting dialogue.
1:00:59
Um so, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is one of the I think one of the most important books in the world to focus on quality, dynamic quality, um finding art in learning to find art in anything.
1:01:11
Deeply, deeply brilliant um philosophical book.
1:01:13
Um Shantaram, one of the most beautiful novels I've um I'd ever read.
1:01:18
Gregory David Roberts is also someone I've gotten to know very well.
1:01:23
Um just a ecstatically beautiful beautiful book.
1:01:26
And you know, of course I'm also a lover of fiction.
1:01:27
I mean Hemingway has been he's probably the most important writer of my life.
1:01:32
Um also everything Any particular novel stand out for you? If there is.
1:01:40
Ah, I I mean I think that For Whom the Bell Tolls just exquisite novel, Green Hills of Africa amazing.
1:01:47
Um his short stories are utterly magnificent.
1:01:51
Um I think Green Hills of Africa is one of the most is one of the most underrated books that he's written. Mhm.
1:01:58
Um his his complete collection of short stories, I mean there's one magnificent gem after the next.
1:02:03
Um of course Old Man and the Sea is is one everyone speaks about and beautiful book.
1:02:08
Um I guess if I had to have a favorite it would be it would be For Whom the Bell Tolls. For Whom the Bell Tolls.
1:02:14
Yeah, for those people listening who also want insight into his writing style uh A Moveable Feast is uh Oh, magnificent book. Yeah. Yeah.
1:02:24
Yeah, also really And that's where Hemingway really speaks to his writing process. Fantastic book. So fascinating.
1:02:31
Uh You know, there's a great book by the way, Tim, which I think I think you've read.
1:02:35
Um which is I think I think it's it's Hemingway on writing. Yeah, I read this book. I did read it. Yeah, I also read that.
1:02:43
Yeah, the I mean if you want to if someone wants to get to know Hemingway it's it's just a fantastic compilation of all of Hemingway's writing and letters and his books and his articles everywhere.
1:02:51
Um put together thematically basically Hemingway on the writing process.
1:02:54
I think it's one of the most important little collections of of um on creativity that I've ever run into.
1:03:01
Absolutely brilliant book. Hemingway on writing. And it's really short.
1:03:03
I remember I read it on I read it on Kindle on a short flight that I had and just like jammed right through the whole thing.
1:03:11
The uh One of the recommendations was uh uh write drunk, edit sober.
1:03:18
And I realized that write drunk, edit sober does not translate to podcasts very well.
1:03:26
The last podcast that I did with uh my buddy Kevin Rose, if you record drunk and try to edit sober, it doesn't really actually work the same way. Right.
1:03:39
Oh man, what uh And we'll just do a couple more questions because this has been fun.
1:03:43
The uh What if if you had to run out of your house and just take a handful of things with you.
1:03:50
Obviously, your family is safe, so that that's accounted for.
1:03:55
Uh what would you take and then why?
1:03:58
In what kind of situation?
1:04:00
Uh in what kind of In a In a very dangerous situation?
1:04:04
Not You don't have to fend for yourself with with weaponry or or create fire with flint or anything like that.
1:04:08
Um There's a There's a fire in your house.
1:04:13
You just have to get out to the street.
1:04:14
And then you're going to obviously sort things out later, but as assuming your family is safe um what would you What would you take with you?
1:04:22
Just what you can carry, basically.
1:04:32
That's a really great question.
1:04:32
I I I actually had that experience years ago when I was playing chess and it speaks to how crazy I was.
1:04:36
I was um There was a I was studying chess with this brilliant Russian grandmaster named Yuri Razuvaev, who I actually wrote about in my book.
1:04:44
And there was a I was in the fifth fifth floor of a of a walk-up.
1:04:47
So, there's a old one-bedroom apartment my first apartment.
1:04:51
And um and there was Suddenly, we were deep deep into chess study and there was a huge fire.
1:04:55
And I I looked out there were like five fire engines and dudes screaming at us and and we had to go out the fire escape and I ended up going back in and grabbing my computer with all of my chess analysis, which is such a random thing to do.
1:05:06
I mean, it was so unimportant.
1:05:07
I mean speaks to how different I've become.
1:05:11
Um Yeah, and then end up being we it been seconds from being an updraft and blowing the whole building up.
1:05:19
Yeah, so I wouldn't do that. I don't know, man.
1:05:21
I I think I might I honestly when you ask me the question now if I think that my family was safe I I have nothing material that I would um that I would grab. That's great, man.
1:05:30
That's uh it's a very stoic response in the most positive way. Uh All right, my man.
1:05:38
I'm going to ask you one more uh actually and I'll I'll I'll give you a choice of two questions. Yeah, let's do that. let's do it.
1:05:44
Uh so the uh the first option is what did you want to be when you grew up?
1:05:50
So, when you're a kid and what now how would you answer the question, what do you want to be when you grow up?
1:05:55
Uh that's that's question number one.
1:05:56
Uh question number two is if you had a committee of three people, living or dead, to help you make decisions, who would you choose and why?
1:06:05
These are great questions, man. Thanks.
1:06:07
I'm bor- I'm By the way, I'm I'm borrowing liberally from like every good interviewer I've ever come in contact with. Uh Right. But so it goes.
1:06:17
You want to answer them both or you want to answer one of them?
1:06:19
Uh you can answer them both.
1:06:20
two very different questions.
1:06:20
I mean, this is tough, man.
1:06:22
Yeah, I mean, if they if they uh I'm just trying to be respectful of your time, but if you if you have time and you have some thoughts on both, let's let's let's go for it.
1:06:29
When I grew up, I wanted to When I was a When I was a kid, I wanted to be a professional baseball player.
1:06:33
I just loved I loved um So, there was something about sport.
1:06:37
Um So, I I I I think that there was a I mean, and I spent a lot of my life as a as a competitor from age basically six until you know, 35, I was basically a professional competitor in different fields.
1:06:51
Um Today, you know, but my mom always said to me that she felt like that was a phase and that I was a healer.
1:06:56
That was her her language.
1:06:58
And and a lot of what I do today is try to figure out how to help people express themselves in as pure a way as possible artistically Um in a way that gives them joy.
1:07:08
I mean I I think that my plan is sometime in the next four or five year years. I'm I'm 37 now.
1:07:17
I'm thinking about it when I'm 40, 41.
1:07:21
I guess that'll be three, four years now. I'm getting old.
1:07:23
Just to turn my mind to everything taking everything I've been doing in these different laboratories and apply it to a world-changing education initiative. Yeah.
1:07:33
Helping children in a just fulfill themselves in a very deep way.
1:07:36
I think is a central calling which I'm That's that's I'm not going to say it's my end game, but that's that's the next major chapter I think of my life that I'm building towards.
1:07:47
I've been running my foundation for for many years now and we do beautiful work, but I have an allergy to scaling if it's going to dilute quality in any way.
1:07:54
And so I've been sort of building up the founda- like the the ground work to ultimately be able to to do something hugely important in education.
1:08:04
So I think that that's going to be the core of how I would I would I'm building towards that in a few years.
1:08:12
In terms of the committee of three people Just to just to interject for a second.
1:08:16
That's that's also I think my calling and of course we've spoken at length about this.
1:08:21
So if you need a co-conspirator, count me in for that one. Certainly. Let's plan on this. Let's say four, five.
1:08:28
We have to figure out when it's going to be maybe four, five years we'll team up and we'll take the world by storm in education. That's my plan. Sounds like a plan, man. I love it. I love it.
1:08:34
Just sort of a taps that it that movement away from self.
1:08:39
I mean as a competitor you're you're constantly you're fighting in many ways you're you know, you're there's something about the focus inward on oneself and I and becoming a parent I've definitely felt this movement away from that.
1:08:55
I mean my my son is just my love for him just so transcends anything I ever I have felt before.
1:09:00
It's been really really important to experience.
1:09:02
And when you become a dad man, then we're going to have some fun. I can't wait.
1:09:06
forward to your sleepless nights.
1:09:07
Oh man, yeah, you're going to you're going to see uh battle weary Timbo.
1:09:12
I got I need to I need to work on my polyphasic sleep.
1:09:14
Uh so, this is a committee of of three people. What are your thoughts?
1:09:28
Well, one person who who who would be on that committee is someone who um I I who I know very very deep friend of mine who happens to be in the in in the finance world. Um His name is Dave.
1:09:41
I can't speak about what his last name is, but just a a deeply meditative spirit, great wisdom.
1:09:48
Um as insightful human being as I've ever known in my life.
1:09:51
And I think that that he would definitely be on um on that list. Mhm.
1:09:56
Um I mean, can we go can we go into can can I say outrageous characters like like Gandhi? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um Go. Go for it. Yeah.
1:10:06
I mean, it I I think about about Gandhi, Laozi, the Buddha. I mean, Mhm.
1:10:12
my my god, what what a what a um But you see, these are these there's a certain Yeah. I don't know, man.
1:10:17
I don't know if I can answer this question very intelligently.
1:10:21
You make me That's a that's the perfect way to end. Yeah. I don't know.
1:10:27
And Tim, of course, you, man.
1:10:28
I mean, you you you you you you you give me you give me so much crap in life that I would have to call up you because you'd be the one just to just to keep you you definitely be one to slice through all the nonsense, yeah. Okay, man.
1:10:40
And my mom, that's the most important one, my mom. Yeah.
1:10:44
She's given me the most um deep advice in my life.
1:10:47
I mean, my mom is the one person who has really embraced these crazy decisions that I've made when I left arts when I was at the tops of their field of their fields and because of some strange calling I hadn't thought of.
1:11:00
I think um my mom doesn't have to be the top of any list like that. She's my hero.
1:11:03
My mom is the greatest person I've ever known in my life. Awesome, man.
1:11:07
Well, this is uh this has been a lot of fun.
1:11:10
Obviously, we're going to have a lot more conversations.
1:11:13
Uh is there anything you want to any parting thoughts, advice, suggestions, anything like that that you'd uh you'd like to impart?
1:11:20
If not, we can we can we can call it a day, but uh the mic is yours if you have anything you'd like to add. No, I love this.
1:11:28
It's been really interesting.
1:11:29
I mean, I I I um I I guess if I if I'm going to close with a thought, it would be that, you know, when I when I Well, one thing that I've been doing in the last years um after since writing The Art of Learning is I've been exposed to the most brilliant thinkers in these different fields.
1:11:45
Um I've I've studied the patterns behind them and I've studied the people who study them.
1:11:48
And wh- one of the things we have to be wary of in life is studying the the people who study the artists as opposed to the artists themselves.
1:12:01
Um Pirsig, who the author of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance that I mentioned, he uses this great term, the philosophers and the philosophologists, right?
1:12:09
The philosophologists are the ones who are basically philosophizing about the philosophers as opposed to doing philosophy.
1:12:13
And the vast majority of philosophers today actually are just philosophologists.
1:12:16
Similarly, there's, you know, you and I have discussed there's the writers and there's the literary critic.
1:12:21
There's the artist and the art critic.
1:12:23
And I think that we have to be very careful when we when we study excellence um and we're thinking about our own path to excellence, um that we're studying the and we're tuning in to the direct experience of people who've actually been there as opposed to the armchair professors who are talking about it. Right.
1:12:38
Um because you know, if we spend our life in the trenches and we spend our life studying that last like 0.
1:12:44
1% of the learning process, what we see is that that that final passage to excellence i- is really about navigating that razor's edge, where you have to be willing to go right up against um a potential enormous blunder.
1:12:55
You have to improvise, for example, trust your intuition in moments where all the objective um mathematical faculties you've developed are telling you something else, but your intuition is operating at a higher level.
1:13:07
Um you have to really be willing to go up to to the like the brink of disaster um to to succeed in in you know in moments where you're for example fighting in the finals of a world championship or in the very last seconds of a Super Bowl or an NBA finals.
1:13:22
Um and and in navigating these things the armchair professors will often have the exact opposite of good advice. Right.
1:13:32
And so so what I would say is is for one thing, you know tru- listen deeply internally to to to the core of your being and and build your game plan from there. Trust your gut.
1:13:42
And then build a lifestyle um around listening to that and cultivate the love.
1:13:48
And that's the other thing I'd say is that whether you're talking about the beginning of the learning process or the or the very you know or the very final surge um or or surges it's about the love.
1:13:58
When we think about parenting, cultivating resilience, cultivating excellence, cultivating creativity what the armchair professors all forget about is the love.
1:14:08
Um and that's what I see consistently with people who have found the most pleasure, the most happiness um and created the greatest art is that they have a profound passion for what they do.
1:14:20
Not only the big moments, but the little moments, the the moments that others would call pain.
1:14:23
They learn to love practice.
1:14:24
They learn to love the point of resistance.
1:14:28
Um I I I I say don't forget about the love.
1:14:30
I guess that's what I'd like to say.
1:14:32
That's a That's a beautiful way to end this, man.
1:14:34
Well, Josh, uh I'm sure we will be talking.
1:14:37
Next time we'll have some wine and uh Sounds good, Timbo.
1:14:42
And uh yeah, I hope everybody checks out obviously The Art of Learning and uh really keeps an eye on on what you have coming when you decide to to push stuff out of the cave. So. Thanks, brother. This was blast. Enjoyed it. All right, buddy. I'll talk to you soon.
1:15:04
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1:15:07
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1:15:20
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1:15:26
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1:15:32
Until next time, thanks for listening.