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I'm the guy who's mad that I didn't get invited to the party that I would have never have gone to anyway.
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That's a beautiful way to look at it.
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So, I'm like with Grammys and playlisting and and certain things where I'm like, "Yo, how do we debut number four at blah blah blah?"
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But the guy who streams 20 times less than me has is higher on me on the place.
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And my wife is like, "You just said you wanted to drop this off for culture. Like, relax.
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I kind of want to begin where we stand today, which is like, you know, where does inspiration like, do you have to work at it?
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Do you wait for it to hit you?
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How did you feel this morning when you woke up?
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Is today a day where you're like, I'm going to write today, I'm going to create today, or I'm just going to talk to the Kiwi and off home and hang with my family. Like, what's today?
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We're just getting over stomach bugs in the house.
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they it kind of swept through all three boys and uh it's been a been of a bit of a crazy week.
0:49
But um in general though, as far as the creative thing, it's like you you have more of like a slotted time for it to open up to it.
0:56
You try to stay as present as you can all day and obviously things will come in just through natural life.
1:01
But like 11 to 7 Monday through Friday in the studio is when I kind of like prepare myself to be like, "Okay, I'm I'm playing now. I'm unlocking. Let it come in. Let the conduit happen." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:10
You know, it's there are other people I know, friends of mine and great artists who um do it that way, too.
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You know, Damon Orban goes to work.
1:20
He goes to his Studio 13 and he just goes to work and it's like no matter what, I'm going to get something.
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I don't know what it is, I'm going to get something.
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And that that thing has it was fearful for me in the beginning.
1:30
Like it was really like get into this to do a job.
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No, when you're a kid, you're like 18 and you're just in the studio till 7 in the morning and you sleep all day and you wake up in the studio on the bed in the studio and you get back to it and you think that that's the struggling surviving and I have to be doing it this way in order for it to be successful, for it to feel real.
1:45
So, there was definitely fear like changing my life to just be a healthier human being to like be able to live till I'm in my older age. Um, yeah.
1:52
So, when you start to make those decisions, you have to kind of mourn and you have to kind of like accept whatever is going to come.
1:58
But in funny enough, it's it's like unlocked a completely different way for me to compartmentalize and step away from the music for a day and then come back to it.
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So I'm shower in the morning, I'm thinking about the song that I'm walking into at 11:00 or so, it's definitely it's definitely upped my productivity.
2:14
Working less hours has upped my productivity.
2:15
Yeah, you work better, not harder.
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And I think I I think, you know, um there's probably a moment in in every person who's chosen to be a creative pursuer or or or anything where you you kind of manage your own time a little bit.
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You're not on like surgery time, like office time.
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There's a lot of time, right? It's all about time.
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Let's be honest with you. Life's about time.
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What you do with it, how much you have. Absolutely.
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You know, how much you waste, you know, all that stuff.
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stuff. Um but then there's comes if if you kind of take care of your own time to some degree I reckon there's there must be a feeling of like a rewarding sensation of knowing that um you know there you can manage it with infrastructure and enjoy it with a bit of the word that word I mean not to be
2:56
super heady about it but the word infrastructure as like it's in the last I think from like 28 to 32 infrastructure becomes such a you realize that like it's impossible to be running anything without a proper infrastructure like it's and I it's like I could not agree with you more. Like it
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Like it has changed the thing.
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Like even Lewis has stepped up. He's my day-to-day.
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My manager, he's he's just taken on so many roles that I know even putting out an album to this degree.
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Like I'm even just on some light Like I want to come back.
3:24
I'm going to drop this off.
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I'm going to do one big show.
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I'm going to stay healthy.
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I'm not going to get wrapped up in it.
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I want to affect culture.
3:29
I want to be heard being seen secondary on the on the Let's do it.
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You don't even realize ch all the way down to changing the wallpaper on the DSP. Yeah.
3:39
You know, when you're doing it yourself, it's completely selfunded.
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You realize like if I don't have an infrastructure and then honestly, this album was more about providing the infrastructure.
3:47
The music, I put my on the table.
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I'll look anybody dead in the eye and be like, "This is the The other stuff." Yeah.
3:53
I don't know what I don't know what's going on.
3:55
So, even just to be like, "Yo, your Twitter your Twitter header got changed at 11:00 p. m.
4:01
This is these are the three photos for you to choose from."
4:02
I'd be like, "Yo, if I really was doing this without infrastructure, oh my god."
4:07
I think the word infrastructure and product and certain things creatives get a little iffy on because you want to just be wheeling and dealing Tribeca in like a loft or some But like without it, that's a great that was a great I agree.
4:18
Well, because you know, you probably don't realize at the time when you're a kid, but when you make a decision to dedicate yourself to the arts, you become a business and you become a business owner and you become a bespoke, very small boutique on a very large street.
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And some of those streets have 120story buildings on them.
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That's called Swift Enterprises. Yes.
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And she's built a magical wonderland for her own creative.
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And and when you start, your stream of consciousness is so great, by the way. Yeah, I love it.
4:51
And I love what you think, too.
4:51
I'm gonna get to you in a But you know, when you when you when you're on that street, man, and you start, you literally don't even have like a cart with some water in it.
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You're walking around with like, "Hey, man, I've got like some magic beans. Would you like one?"
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Like, so you're the only one who believes that the beans are magic in the first place. That's right.
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Someone give me some dirt, please.
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Just give me some fertilizer. Right. This bean is magical.
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But I don't think people realize that.
5:15
They just think it is an extension of playtime.
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And both can be true at the same time.
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It is an extension of playtime.
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Playtime's a beautiful thing.
5:20
Brian will tell you it's a great word.
5:22
But you got to acknowledge that you're a business owner, bro.
5:26
It's like it's that coagulating everchanging. It's nuts, dude.
5:30
Even the idea of like full transparency, me being like, I have my back.
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I have my masters back now.
5:38
They've been put in my favor.
5:40
I I waited I waited it out. They came back. Like I own everything.
5:42
By the way, you just put four stories on your building with that. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
5:49
So now the the process is like dealing with the frustrations of doing this thing as just a labor of love cuz I've been fortunate enough to to I've been fortunate enough to make enough global number ones where the bank account looks okay now.
6:02
I'm not going back to the catering hall anymore.
6:05
That's always I say that all the time.
6:05
I just never want to go back to the catering hall.
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I just want to stay creative. Yeah.
6:08
But now the new balance is like to what degree do we open up?
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We dropped tickets the other day for a small show. Sold out in 18 seconds.
6:15
We upped it to 1,200 people for a listening party.
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I'm like, people, I'm gonna plug my phone in on some fly I just want to play the new stuff 2 hours before the album comes out. That'll be really fun.
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If it sells out in 6 hours, 10 10 seconds of sells out.
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And then the fans are super, which we're talking about this in real time as this has happened the last few days.
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The fans were like, "Awesome.
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What the you know, you've been gone for six years and now we're going to sit outside of the venue for da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d and you're going to make us do that.
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It's like, first of all, I have no Live Nation contract.
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I'm renting the venue myself.
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I'm paying the band security.
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I'm setting up the merch booth. I'm doing everything.
6:51
Did I miscalculate how big this was of a return? Possibly.
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But it's like, you're right.
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I have to tend to what a business is and I have to be realistic about like should like I was talking to my wife about it even last night.
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I'm like, to what degree do we open up the doors?
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But because I already have money, do I keep my sanity by not trying to make everybody happy and do 10 tours with the 20,000 people cuz the people want it?
7:18
It's like, bro, that's what got me in the beginning that drove me crazy in the beginning of my career.
7:20
But see, this is the interesting situation that you've established for yourself.
7:24
You are a fascinating case study right now because you really are. And I feel it.
7:29
I feel like a hamster like Yeah, you are. You know, exactly. Exactly.
7:34
And test subjects have to go through some weird testing.
7:38
And people, even even the CEOs that I've written records for other artists are like, "Wait, so there's an email with the forum and the forum goes up and" and I'm like, "Yo, I'm in the same boat as you."
7:47
I was just like, "If Instagram only reaches 3% of people, so the algorithm forces you to post to act like a monkey on the platform." Correct.
7:56
It's not about the platform.
7:56
It's about doing what the platform needs you to do to make the platform more popular.
8:00
So then if I could get in the email Yeah.
8:04
and I just get 100% of 10,000 people. Yeah.
8:07
And I could talk to 100% of 30,000 people. Yeah. Then 33.
8:09
3 million followers on X doesn't actually matter.
8:14
Yo, let me get my email list that I had 10 years ago when I got my contract.
8:17
So let's let's give credit where it's due.
8:19
This is a deep one to to the crew that figured this out way before anybody else.
8:25
And that's hieroglyphics. Absolutely.
8:27
in the Bay in the Bay Area when they were all signed to Jive and Electra and all these labels, you know, Dell, Casual, Souls, PET, all these rap amazing MC's signed to all of the hot labels at the time.
8:44
Domino, their m their manager, producer, and all of them got together and were like, "Fuck that.
8:50
Like, if we're getting dropped, let's go direct a fan."
8:53
And they've been living beautifully off of that ever since.
8:57
And it makes you realize like but then somehow like I was talking I was talking to my wife about it.
9:03
I was saying I was talking about in therapy too.
9:04
Like I'm the guy who's mad that I didn't get invited to the party that I would never have gone to anyway.
9:09
That's a beautiful way to look at it.
9:10
So I'm like with Grammys and playlisting and and certain things where I'm like, "Yo, how do we debut number four at blah blah blah?" Yeah.
9:15
But the guy who streams 20 times less than me has is higher on me on the place.
9:19
And my wife is like, "You just said you wanted to drop this off for culture. Like relax."
9:24
And I'm like, "Wait, you're right.
9:26
So then what's my purpose here?"
9:27
So, like in real time, I'm still figuring out like, "Bro, you said you wanted to sell out a couple of shows and they sold out in 10 seconds. Like, aren't you happy?"
9:38
It's like, "Well, I'm pissed that on the forum the fans were like, yo, he's he's not like really like catering to the amount and he's just like so he's not really tapped into like I'm like, he's creating too much demand."
9:47
And they're like, "By the way, it's 800k to even just rent the skeleton of MSG."
9:51
And they're like, "Why wouldn't you just do MSG?"
9:55
It's like, yo, yo, I'm like, but that's why that's why you're a case study because you when you said, uh, we're the same.
10:03
You talking about the CEOs and whatever. Yes and no.
10:04
Because what you're doing is is if you were still in the label system, they'd be doing all that for you.
10:10
If you still live nation, they'd be doing all that for you.
10:13
Cappy that, by the way, Cappy and Lewis, thank the Lord. Yeah. Yeah.
10:16
And and I know with Cap, he has a 30 person inventory on the management side through the Luke stuff.
10:21
So, it's like I I inherited a label.
10:21
If I didn't inherit a label through a management choice with and then then with my with Lewis, my right-hand man, like being behind it, bro, we're all in the car like just trying to put an album out.
10:33
It's not even like we're trying to take over the world, but for some reason lives for this because he's done it with Luke.
10:37
And the beautiful the beautiful thing the beautiful thing is what you've actually stepped into is a language. Yeah.
10:44
Because what you're doing is you're actually speaking the language direct to fan.
10:47
The language of the internet, the language.
10:50
You got to meet the people where they are.
10:54
translating it all the rewards of it. You're back off.
10:57
This is director fan consumer relations.
11:04
But you also get the heat because you are the business runner, bro.
11:08
It's and and fascinating. Fascinating.
11:11
And it's the same thing even with the with the director to fans thing cuz even even fans get to a place where like then they just be expecting it to be a certain way all the time.
11:20
Like lose money on every show, right?
11:22
you should cater to us in a way that and then you have a weird feeling of like whoa whoa whoa now we're getting weights but it's like well that was the point is to go direct to the fan so it's hard to please people so you're in this weird so how much of are you going to educate people at the same time because there's
11:34
got to be a part of this this isn't just about taking control and building your own business and ultimately having a farmtotable operation which is beautiful by the way but this is also a chance for us as fans through this again case study to actually understand a little bit of what it is to be an artist and run your own job. I can tell you right now, like
11:51
I can tell you right now, like the joke of the thing that you see of people being like, "There's no money in it."
11:57
Bro, there's no money in it.
11:57
Like, I'm telling you right now, like, unless you get it to a place where you can construct it, like it depends on what you're considering no money as well.
12:06
Like, writers, we've we've already I've already touched on this a bunch.
12:10
It's like writers, that's a joke.
12:11
Like, if you're a writer right now and you think you're getting paid off of streams, it's like that's we are literally we're all walking jokes, that's for sure.
12:17
Um, the producer is only getting three points out of a hundred.
12:20
There's a hundred of those points and the guy who produced the song is only getting three to six depending on his heat check. That's crazy.
12:27
But like I'm I'm It's all in real time.
12:30
Like I'm giving points to writers on the record.
12:34
But now because I'm the label, I'm funding the frontloading of every music video, every everything myself.
12:41
But the writers need to get paid on the point before I pay myself back for shooting music videos. Mhm. Mhm.
12:44
So then people are like, "Just shoot 900 pieces of short form content and just just like I'm like I'm like a dinosaur. I I like music videos. I like I like art.
12:53
I like long form content.
12:56
I like sitting in the music.
12:58
I'm still just I'm just a music guy." Yeah.
12:59
So it's all in real time figuring out what it is.
13:02
Like right now we were joking around.
13:03
We're making a product and we got this little like factory and I'm like I just want to put out like a small batch.
13:09
And I'm not even trying to make it sound like I'm like I'm so humble because I'm just like capping my success. It's not it's not that.
13:17
It's literally like, man, I'm blessed.
13:19
I got a lot to say about being a father.
13:21
I'm a little I'm a little aggressively angry at the culture that lied to me from 14 years old to to now.
13:27
And I I want my kids to feel something cool that encouraged them to go in a direction the tantrum of what a father figure is. I have something to say.
13:36
I would like to take the risk to drop this off into culture. Let's make it. Let's put it together.
13:40
I have access to the greatest product makers in the world because I've made some products for some pretty great people.
13:45
So, let me bring them in, jump on the shoe. They can help me.
13:49
A little Tinker Hatfield over here for my Jordan and a here for here.
13:52
Let's just put it out and we'll put it on the curb and see if someone picks it up.
13:56
And then we just kind of walk outside right now and it's 70 cars lined up honking trying to get the And it's like and someone turns around like we're going to need a bigger boat.
14:06
Like, but also the bigger boat is what drove me crazy.
14:08
Like my wife, the fans should be really thanking my wife. She's like, "No, no, no. Go, go, go. It's okay to go back.
14:15
It's okay to feel successful.
14:15
You don't have to feel guil. It's okay.
14:17
Like, you could go back to it now.
14:18
You You're in a fascinating identity space right now, bro.
14:22
The the the struggle to be genuine. Oh, man. Little emotional.
14:24
I don't know why I just said that.
14:27
We all struggle with that, John.
14:29
the genuiness of you're a dad and it's important to be a dad, but you didn't have the best day with your kids yesterday.
14:37
So, how dare you promote the archetype or even just talk about your anger in culture to be a father because look at you.
14:45
You're not the guy to do it.
14:47
Which then you're like, well, that's just the enemy talking.
14:49
I I I But then you also are like, I'm not the guy to to bring this to the light.
14:54
Well, then well, you justify it.
14:55
I'm not saying I got to be the leader of the dads, but I want to make a leadership record for the figure of you decide at that moment that it's not inspiration, it's aspiration. Yes.
15:06
Can't you decide what the motivation point is that if I'm not inspired by my own behavior right now?
15:10
Let me aspire to do that.
15:14
So, isn't it just the filter that you look at it through?
15:16
Because the feeling is the same.
15:18
You're just trying to give it a purpose, but it doesn't have to be the same purpose.
15:22
It is like the weirdest time. It's the weirdest time.
15:26
We're in the deconstruction of celebrity.
15:28
Y and we're in like the crumbling of the institution of of the fabric.
15:35
Not even to plug the song, but like modern times in America on the on the record, it just it's this like hectic when you think about my brain and thinking about my children growing up in the country.
15:42
It's it ain't left, it ain't right.
15:44
It's just my thoughts on the hecticness of like you you hear a thunder and you're like, "Shit, was that Russia?"
15:50
Like that's a weird place to be in.
15:53
in. and all simultaneously where like it's like the most self like and everything's so um live life the way that you want to and you got it but like something in my stomach is like that's the kids suffer through that because you're supposed to give up your life for your children the
16:14
culture lying to me album you know like but then all around that it's like commerce is is boosting around and you're trying to keep it as pure as possible and you're in this like weird I I I'm giving you just the I drove in from the crib today to come and talk. No, I get it. I'm like yesterday I'm at No, I get it.
16:31
I'm like yesterday I'm at a christening just pretending like I don't have an album in three days and everyone's also being like very nice to me and very like great song with Luke Combmes that was good.
16:41
I have to take the time to allow myself the grace to say in real time this will get figured out.
16:49
I can't say six years ago, I'm only going to be writing for and producing for other artists now.
16:52
I only want hits and I'm never going back to artistry because the system and they they my contract looks crazy.
16:57
I'm gonna make a pie chart and expose the whole thing. them. Yeah. Yeah.
17:00
And then six years later, it was like I feel creatively like I actually have something to say.
17:04
I've lived six years worth of life rather than switching genres and trying to be like I feel like if I would have made an album every year, I might not have even found the full voice singing demos for other people or tooken away some of the bedroom pop production for me to grow and mature.
17:22
I feel like my music has grown and mature in a in a way that like it would have never happened if I didn't walk away from the artistry for a long.
17:30
Don't I I think there's no way you would have written a song like why or got to a place where you had the perspective if you hadn't given yourself that time. Here's the thing, right?
17:38
You are in it right now because you got a young family that you 100% dedicated to.
17:42
So a lot of your decision-m this is just my take is probably being driven by like am I am I doing right by that?
17:49
Then at the same time I've taken this big big courageous step into kind of building my I wanted this.
17:56
I was angry at the system. I want to take it back. I want to do it myself.
18:00
I want to prove that it's possible.
18:00
And then in both of these, you're trying to kind of understand who you are as a as a young man still in your early 30s, figuring out, okay, my identity is not that anymore.
18:09
It's this and blah blah blah blah blah.
18:11
And at the core of all 10 out of 10 on andund at the core of all of it is the actual truth, which is the music will lead you.
18:18
The music will support the music will support you.
18:20
And if you actually just remove all of it and put everything where it needs to be and just sit still for a second and just listen to yourself for just a second. Yep.
18:30
Aside from silence and get to a peaceful place, you'll hear music. Absolutely. Absolutely.
18:34
That's like almost what you have to train yourself to just be like just keep going back to the just keep going back to the studio.
18:40
That's So hold on, hold on.
18:40
I'll answer that question tomorrow.
18:42
I got to go stick with the thing that has created the thing in the first place.
18:45
All of this is happening because of music. Mhm. All of it.
18:48
All of it. is I've been making the shoe to the point where I've sent the shoe to every artist and their mother and the the artist has said I want to wear these shoes when I go play the game right now I have the shoe in my hand and it's
19:00
my own shoe but I'm outside trying to be the athlete and I'm and I'm back into this like uh oh like I kind of want to go back to this I just loved the shoe because when the shoe goes on someone else the shoe gets perceived almost differently. I know that that sounds
19:14
I know that that sounds like super deep, but like the shoe, if you put the shoe on Burnab Boy Uhhuh.
19:23
and Khaled uh the idea exists in a realm where it will be accepted culturally in a different way than if I'm the one that said, "Hey, I made that one. This is my artist song. Check it out."
19:35
And you deal with all these other things.
19:37
So, there's been a level of comfortability for me to be like, "This will go off in that culture.
19:42
I don't look like I'm from that culture, but I know I have ideas that will permeate through an an existing market or whatever.
19:49
And then to see it happen, there's a different type of like boulder Icorus to toward the sun situation when it's your own face. Yeah.
19:58
Of course, you have to like break down comparisons and break down because of anything could you're out of your safe zone, bro.
20:04
You know, you know where the do you know where the most comfort exists for for artists is the place where you get to blame somebody else too.
20:14
So as soon as you have been a father don't blame any mother. You can't Yeah. Yeah.
20:18
So you're you're in a mad responsible stage of your life.
20:19
And also even within your business. Yeah. You're a kid again.
20:24
You have the freedom to do what you want.
20:25
You've built you've got a beautiful team to support you. But check this out.
20:27
You got no one else to blame anymore.
20:29
And as frustrated as you were with the system, it kind of gave you a protection, a security to be able to say, "You my up." Yep.
20:36
When you take that away, Yes.
20:38
then you feel like you feel right now. Yep.
20:41
And and you never even know to this to this day.
20:43
I still don't know if people always like, "Oh, I wish he would have sang XYZ.
20:48
I wish he would have sang XYZ for XYZ for whatever for whatever artist you work for."
20:56
You also have to come to the conclusion of like, man, those records were probably super successful because they gave up their life to be in a position for a ch a record to even have a chance. Correct.
21:04
So, you can't just be on some ego like, I could have sang these joints and been crazy, but I'm choosing not to be the biggest artist in the world.
21:11
It's like, bro, you don't even know if people are going to like a song that comes or doesn't like a song.
21:15
The song will find its home, dude.
21:16
It will go where it wants to go. That is the bottom line.
21:20
I've had songs for three years, four years, 5 years.
21:22
Five years later, the artist finds it and it's like, "This is some futuristic ass."
21:26
I love that I'm like, I love I love that I love that story about memories.
21:30
How you like that's just whatever.
21:31
And then boom, it's on a it becomes our Apple photos app soundtrack.
21:35
Every time I go to photos, it's like here's to the worst that we left. I'm like, "Holy Lavine."
21:41
And mind you, the Lavine is making me cry cuz I'm watching a montage of my kids when they were young again. you, John Bellion.
21:49
And by the way, I I've said it I've said it many times, my ego almost got in the way of the song.
21:52
You know, the day the day we made it, I was like, "Ah, it's on me."
21:55
And then before it came out, I'm like, "Can we dirty it up and maybe add some Yeah, cuz it's Yeah, cuz it's it's on But it is You're absolutely right.
22:02
That one is on the line between like, oh, I feel kind of sick."
22:08
But at the same time, I love it.
22:11
It's really And the big ones are that.
22:13
Like the really big ones are that.
22:13
And you you recognize too like you you got to have there's like a time and a place.
22:21
There's a time and a place.
22:21
And you recognize if you could just be more of the conduit, you're like, "Oh, what is supposed to happen and what's supposed to be made? That's interesting."
22:28
Rather than it's about my and if this becomes a big song, then people will only know me for the Oh, you really you get in it, huh?
22:42
Or the shit's going to be received.
22:42
How the shit's going to be received. There go.
22:45
And if somebody told me I could do a song for Junk Cook and do it on a Saturday in my basement alone doing some melodies, send it back to Toronto and Watt and whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
22:54
And and it send my kids to college.
22:56
I'd be like that's not a bad day work. That's a great day work.
23:00
And then other times for the I think the artistry though is is you I do feel way more like responsibility to poke and prod at ideas and culture and and yeah I'm in this room saying this thing wearing this color.
23:15
What's your thought on that?
23:15
that I feel more of a thing to of my deepest thoughts or my moral obligation to present something that makes people that stirs the pot.
23:25
Stirs the pot creatively for other producers and writers to wake up and be like, "Oh, I didn't even think to combine that with that."
23:31
Well, that's why I that's why we started the conversation with Kid Again because it's one of those moments where I feel like you really are in that in that place, you know, even Alltime Low.
23:38
Like, I mean, when you listen to that song, it's like, you know, it's not a conventional pop song, right?
23:44
Well, they told me it wouldn't work.
23:45
They said it would never be a thing.
23:46
Yeah, when you drop into the chorus, it's like It's a surprise every time.
23:50
And I've heard that song hundreds of times.
23:51
And it's like it's like low.
23:54
It's like, oh Like where am I again?
23:57
You know, and so you do have a very eccentric, and I mean that is the highest form of compliment. I appreciate that.
24:03
A very eccentric approach to arrangement and to structure even with the wake ups and the things that you you love. It wins and it loses. Slap us.
24:08
I' I've recognized now in my 33 years of age, it wins and it loses.
24:13
what a win is and what a loss is culturally or whatever.
24:18
It's just that sometimes it really pays off and then sometimes it just takes longer for the thing to hit or sometimes it falls flat on his face because people just weren't ready for that design of a shoe.
24:26
You gave him a Croc like you gave him Crocs when Crocs first came out. Are you a Simpsons fan?
24:32
It's the car that Homer designed for his brother. Yes. Yes.
24:34
With like wings and and you're like what the is this going on?
24:38
But it turns out that it was just for a time and a place and whatever.
24:41
And also, you realize when you're a wine connoisseur and you're making the wine and you're obsessing about certain things, the who drinks boxed wine is just not going to care. Yeah.
24:49
So, you also have to play a bit of a game of like it's not the most serious thing in the world, but it's also like super serious cuz you're everything. That's everything.
24:57
Like, it's really just it's just playtime, man.
24:59
We're just making up, but at the same time, I live for this Like even like the the Rihanna joint that came out, the the friend of mine joint, she's we're I'm like Chicago house and the beat and the beat and the beat will carry and the beat will carry and the beat will carry and I'm not factoring in like fans are waiting for this other thing and there's going to be these these preconceived expectations for a song when you do.
25:22
Coming up there'd be three D three DJs in a dark basement and sometimes one would start the loop. Oh yeah.
25:26
and the grunge loop would go and then a with shittier speakers would and I'm so inside of that that I'm like, "Oh, this sounds like a bunch of UK smoking f just like crushing in a basement. We're on it."
25:40
And then when it comes out, you see this polarizing like she's only saying eight words.
25:44
I'm like, "Yeah, that's the cool part though cuz it's a it's just like go."
25:47
It's just like go go go and the beat the beat's going or the Jones brothers.
25:51
I'm like, yo, Americana, this is going to be a whole new landscape and a thing.
25:57
And then sometimes some fans are just like, it's not what I want right now.
26:00
But then you don't know like later down the line people will come up to me. That's how I met Forel.
26:05
Forel was like that Jonas Brothers record like what the were you on on some?
26:09
So I was like you got to live with the frustration of being like no you just don't understand that.
26:15
The way I look at it is is you're whistling in the wind, right?
26:19
And when you do it, you put it out there and it travels and the whistle never dies.
26:24
It just it just leaves you.
26:26
You don't know where it's going.
26:28
And the but the wind is whipping it all over the place.
26:30
And every now and then it's like it goes past Jonas Brothers fans and it goes and you're like and they go but then it goes to he goes, "What the is that?"
26:38
But it's whistling all the time, you know?
26:45
Which is another reason why you can only do the thing in front of you to say I like this. I have goosebumps.
26:50
I think this can change the world.
26:53
And from that point on, it's a victory to even just get it out into the world.
26:57
I'd say it seems like that.
26:58
It feels a little consolation prize.
27:00
I mean, how else are you going to live your life, right?
27:02
We used to have this running joke cuz I was I was writing and producing for a few years before Apple came along and then diverted and I'm always Yeah, I'm always doing that stuff.
27:10
People don't I feel like a lot of people come here and we never touch on like how big of fans people are of you.
27:16
That's that's like bro I'm very aware of that. I appreciate that. I appreciate that.
27:19
But we used to joke like when I was in London we were doing a lot of like co-writing and sessions and stuff like that.
27:23
Like we would always joke me and my producer and engineer partners and stuff.
27:26
We'd always joke like someone would come and be like oh uh another another Riri another Riri situation.
27:35
And we were like whoa who was it?
27:37
And they go, "Oh, such and such came up."
27:39
And they and we'd always was always the same thing.
27:40
It'd be like, "Dude, dude, come here. Come here." We're like, "What?"
27:45
Like, "Shit, don't don't tell anyone, bro." But don't tell anyone. Okay.
27:50
You know, I'm going this don't tell a soul.
27:52
But I think I got the first re and we'd be like, "A word? A word?"
28:01
We go like, "Yo, congrats, bro." Bro, that's amazing.
28:03
I'm doing I'm doing an interview. It's so funny.
28:05
They're like, they're interviewing me before the song comes out.
28:08
They're like, they're like, "Yo, why do you think she chose that after 10 years of all the singles to come back with?
28:13
Why do you think she chose it?"
28:14
And I'm like, "Well, she always wants to change it up, right?" Yeah.
28:17
The song comes out and it they clip what I said in the thing and they're like, "She wants something new."
28:23
And the question was, but because the the the hype around her and even just releasing music is so real that I was just like, "I didn't even know I was stepping into a storm of what it was." You know what I mean?
28:32
was." You know what I mean? It's like so it's just now that's the first time that's the first time this whole conversation you've been naive because that is Rihanna bro and she does not put a lot of music out right now but 10 years maybe you know what it is no
28:45
social media on my phone just existing you don't really you don't have to be social now I do I have like a fake Instagram to put less pressure on the real account and I just photo dump information for the album on this fake account even having that has affected my serotonin and my Oh, you're getting back in it, huh? the homepage. the homepage.
29:07
And I'm like, yo, I've been on here for 20 minutes and I've seen a dog die and a baby laugh and a cancer patient and a and a political conflict all in like 20 minutes and I'm like shot.
29:19
Like I like I get off my phone, I'm like my eyes hurt.
29:23
I've been like downloading all the things which I'm just like and then I get a little double like oh am I walking into a world where I'm not even like which could make the music sound but in and of itself different or something that could be an an advantage but like you said like naive is not necessarily this like I'm just so pure. It's not that.
29:45
It's just like you're not dialed in.
29:47
I'm gonna blow my brains out if I keep knowing the ills of all the world.
29:51
Why would I even make a creative decision if I knew how much critique comes with creative decisions?
29:55
Now, it's it's a fine line between being responsible and being irresponsible, right?
29:58
So, there's a certain expectation to be responsible, i. e.
30:03
to be aware of the world around you and to be conscious of everything that's happening, right?
30:07
But then there's an irresponsibility to your own sense of self self-awareness and and and health, mental health, because that is a neverending there is five billion eyes It's like, you know, in movies sometimes like um I think it's Lord of the Rings.
30:26
Was it one of the who was the character?
30:27
Was it Kate Blanchett's character that could see every soul in the in the whole universe?
30:32
There's a character in some movie where it's like I can feel all the pain.
30:36
You know, that's what social media is.
30:40
It's like I see everything, bro. it, bro.
30:45
I don't even know how these larger like huge artists, your whole is like a fish in a boat.
30:50
Like, you're in a cage forever.
30:52
Every decision, which is why I respect at some point like the the dilution of the institution of celebrity.
30:58
There has to be some sort of reawakening for sure of some sort of just like the image presentation of like I am the thing that you should follow.
31:08
the faster we can kind of like all level out on that feels like the moment art will have like another blooming renaissance to some degree because right now we're in this weird middle phase.
31:20
It's about it's about the value proposition.
31:22
It's like what why am I connected to your life experience?
31:27
Is it because I'm obsessed with how you dress or your stuff, how your charisma, whatever is it because you're giving me something of value.
31:36
Now, that's tricky, too, because is what you're giving me a value to me or am I addicted to the value it gives you? Oh my goodness.
31:43
So, so am I living vicariously through your value or am I actually able to absorb, adopt, and execute on this?
31:49
And so, we have to start to actually analyze this experience.
31:53
You get into a deeper conversation of asking yourself the question of am I what I'm putting out into the world, is that a representation of me? Am I being honest?
31:59
Is it who the I am or am I playing ball to make sure that everyone feels okay with me to politically get further in this thing?
32:09
By the way, am I I don't even know if I'm at this the core of what that is. Or am I a fixer?
32:13
Am I addicted to to offering value to other people because I see it as a transferable form of love back to me? Right?
32:22
So, am I being true in my intentions even with good intentions? No, it's this bro.
32:26
And sometimes I what I've recognized for me I should have put you to sleep.
32:30
There there are times that I will just be like in my career to the frustration of everybody on my team and around me is just shut it down.
32:38
I'm getting too I'm getting to like I am like wound up and now my intention is lost and now I'm aggressively trying to compete in a marketplace for no reason when really the guy cutting his grass that made decisions in his life that needs an espresso in the morning.
32:54
I just hope he gets this album.
32:55
Well, then how do you get it? Lrae was at the crib.
32:58
He was like, that's my man since you could ask him. Whatever.
33:03
He was like, "Yo, how do you how do he listen to the whole album and um how do you get this to the world?"
33:10
Oh, that's the big question.
33:10
How do you He's like, "Bro, bro," he's in the studio. He's like, "How how?"
33:13
Because I played him the whole thing top to bottom.
33:16
And he was like, "Yo, what if people don't care?
33:18
What are you going to do? What's the plan?"
33:20
And like I felt embarrassed to be like, I don't know.
33:24
I worked really hard on the music.
33:27
It kind of begins and ends there.
33:29
I'm not sure if I even have the talent or if I even have the motivation to even give a about making sure because what do you Oh my gosh.
33:36
What do you sacrifice to get to the thing?
33:38
Cuz you always hear about these people that always say, "Well, I had to do this to get to this."
33:44
But maybe you weren't supposed to get to that because now that you're there, you're a shell of a person. Yeah. Yeah.
33:50
You have lots of You got to be careful to be like, "Well, in order to reach the pinnacle because my message is the one that needs to be heard, of course I'm going to sacrifice artistically, creatively, morally."
34:01
D, of course I'm going to do that cuz I have to get to the place, but then you're on the top of the mountain.
34:06
But that's what a record label was supposed to be about.
34:07
The whole reason we signed record deals and I've signed my share as well was because they they answered one simple question which was I would say without asking every reason you signed to record label boils down to one fundamental principle throughout the history of this experience which is we will find your audience for you. Yep.
34:23
And I'm not even sure they know how to do that anymore because we've given the game. I am sure.
34:31
I am sure you are wildly positive. I am sure.
34:33
You know, but but I but but I say that but I say that but I say that in respect and I'm not just covering my tracks here.
34:38
I say that I say that with the grace of respect to my friends who do work in the record labels and record all the giant managers I talk to myself and the labels don't know what the is going on.
34:47
You have to like you have to mourn the idea of what it could have been given you doing certain things to get it there.
34:57
And the faster you mourn that, the more you can kind of try to stay in a pure place of I'm really just trying to get the dad who's struggling that works at the gas station to hear this music to hear that Yeah.
35:08
I'm really Because I'm not the leader of those guys.
35:10
I'm just saying the world has like threw the baby out with the bathwater and guys don't know now. I don't I don't know.
35:17
The institutions are gone.
35:22
The thing is crumbling and the thing is okay.
35:24
So, where is our north star to at least even wake up to be like, "No, I'm reclaiming my kids.
35:32
I think that's super cool, and I think being a present dad is super cool, and I'm going to beat my gorilla chest until the sounds fly as so that people can be like, I I haven't heard a guy talk about that in that way. You know what?
35:44
I'm going to go I'm going to spend that extra hour with my kids today and going on the slide and tell my boss to off for a second because this is super important to me.
35:52
If that's that's my genuine like if if only a hundred people get that rather than a million people don't understand it because it's super culturally like popping cuz people just think they're cool standing next to it.
36:05
Get it to the hundred guys.
36:05
How do I stay to the hundred guys thing?
36:07
Well, it's like well John you can't control how big it's getting.
36:10
It's like I know like you said case study. So you're a case study.
36:13
You're you know there's a few of you who are busting through walls right now and yeah it gets a bit a little bloodied and a little bruised when you do that right for others to walk through.
36:20
But but I I told you I'd give a little insight into why it's streaming and why it's working.
36:24
You've opened up the conversation to a generation of creators and and and fans who also agree that there isn't a charted path anymore.
36:36
Everyone's on the Pacific Ocean and the the navigation tools have all broken down and shorted out.
36:42
When you got to chop the apple tree, three hours of your day is going out with the axe and sweating and providing in your role to chop down the apple tree.
36:50
Once it's at the the the supermarket, you take time to go said in a couple interviews, you get apple or whatever you want to call it.
36:55
Once you remove the thing, the purpose starts to get meandering in luxury.
37:01
You start to you start to have this I want to be served so much that you end up ser you become so served that you're like dysfunctional as a as a functioning member of society with your money and your celebrity and your this and your that.
37:14
So you're in this weird like all men now are like wait I'm supposed to like like take care of the kid 50/50 but earn and be a provider but also be like super soft and be patient all the time and have all this time for my career and all this time for my kid.
37:30
And then you go on your phone and they're like, "Do you get to the top of the mountain?
37:32
Do you" And you're like, "Fuck, I am not a bajillionaire doing the I s I'm living this average life with kids in a in a regular town."
37:43
And it's like almost the culture is going to start to realize that we threw the baby out with the bath water.
37:49
We're like, "That's the good The diapers is the good shit."
37:52
That's what I was going to say.
37:52
When you said, "I'm supposed to do this, this, this, and this."
37:54
I was going to say the short answer is yes. Yes. Yes.
37:55
That's a that's a that's a full life.
37:58
Y at the end of the day, I think we've we've lost the we've lost the idea of the we've lost the idea of the full life cuz we're comparing it to a bajillion other lives. Oh, dude.
38:10
Man, the left and right is maddening.
38:12
The left and the right is just maddening.
38:14
Like, what are you doing? What are you doing? How far? What? Where?
38:17
My therapist was telling me that there was this dude that's panning.
38:20
This dude went to um they found a a book and I I'm probably butchering this.
38:24
Somewhere around like 1800s or 1900s or something, they found a book of a journal from a son and a father.
38:28
And the father said, "Wasted the whole day fishing with my son.
38:31
Got to get back to work tomorrow."
38:32
The son said, "Had the greatest day of my life with my dad today. Went fishing."
38:38
So we There's something to be said to train yourself as a guy who says, "My life is mundane.
38:44
I'm doing the same thing every day.
38:45
I'm just showing up for my kids and every time I go on my phone, it's telling me that my life is simple."
38:50
And s we have to find a way.
38:53
Maybe I could just put a little bit of a Keep going.
38:55
I don't know why I'm emotional about that.
38:58
It's like all of us, myself included, are just working with the tools that we've been given, trying the best that we trying the best that we can.
39:08
Man, I get so wrapped up in in am I present, am I too present, am I not working enough for them to see a hardworking person, an example of that?
39:15
And and it's like you got to get to a place where you realize we're all human.
39:20
Do you know what the best example you can you can set for your kids are for any as any parent happiness. Mhm.
39:27
People think it's like work ethic, D.
39:29
And that shit's Yeah, of course it's important.
39:32
Having a miserable billionaire pops has got to be rough. that. It's got to be rough. that, right? Happiness, joy. Yep.
39:40
But life is actually a gift worth accepting. Yeah.
39:42
And they're only going to that's only going to imprint on how you actually live that out.
39:45
It's not going to imp smell a mile away, man. Don't do as I do. Do as I say.
39:50
Your three-year-old right now is like a literally his CPU. Yes.
39:54
Is like 5 terb and he's used like 3 megabytes.
40:03
Dude, I hear him throughout the day.
40:04
He's just going, "Yes, absorb, absorb, absorb, absorb, absorb." So true.
40:09
He's like, it's so funny. I I hear him.
40:11
I'll say things throughout the day like joking around.
40:15
Like the other day my like my dad just called me joking around talking about something.
40:19
I'm like just joking around.
40:21
I was like yeah it doesn't matter though.
40:23
I'm like that and a dollar get you to ride the bus. Like whatever.
40:25
It's just like a saying of of like that and a dollar get you to ride the bus.
40:29
Like who's an Italian thing for sure.
40:30
So and I literally hear him in the next room with his brother and he goes, "No."
40:36
Cuz my his younger brother's name is Nino.
40:40
goes, "Nina, that Nadala get you to ride the bus, man."
40:42
I was like, "Oh, I got to watch what the what the what the f comes out of my mouth cuz he's watching." Oh my god.
40:51
Then you start to realize like, yo, the father is like wildly important in the home. Yeah.
40:57
To like you don't you you hear that, you believe that, and then you have children, and you're like, "Oh my gosh."
41:03
Well, cuz check this out, right?
41:05
This is my take on it and it's sensitive and we have to we have to walk this cuz we both have wives and we know our place place in the home and I I certainly am not the boss in my house and I and I love that.
41:14
I'm very aware of who is the smartest and who was the hardest working and who was the best.
41:20
But that being said, like the way that it was for me was that I recognized very quickly that in just innate bond that my wife had with our children, this in unbelievable natural just genetic magic bond, right?
41:35
And what I realized pretty quickly, which is why I had to go to work on myself, was that I had to actually define my role. Yes.
41:48
Because I'm like, "Oh, my wife is a has a spiritual and holistic connection, an innate natural role to play here. I now have a new job."
42:04
And yeah, I'm biologically connected to this experience, but she is the nature and the nurture. Yeah.
42:16
And what you and I've got to figure out what am I actually going to contribute here. Yes.
42:20
I can on the basketball court.
42:23
I can will my way into into making this the thing that I got game a little bit.
42:28
I can will my way into this happening. Yeah. On my music career.
42:34
I can will my way into this bank account.
42:36
I can will my way with the with the kids and marriage and the unit. No.
42:41
It's like what do you need from me?
42:41
not what I think you need from me.
42:44
What I've learned is, you know what?
42:46
Let your ego die to some degree in the house. Let it go. Let it go. Go exercise it on this.
42:56
Would you say like to what degree you're willing to die of yourself is to the degree that you can love them better?
43:01
Well, I would say strong language, but I can't really pick a hole in it, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
43:10
I mean, I think in the sense that, you know, you learn to just listen better, get out of your own way, drop all the you inherited from your own childhood, which is a big one, huge, really big one, like huge that has no right to be in your house.
43:29
There's a song on the record called Don't Shoot the Boy Down.
43:31
And I'm talking about the I'm talking to myself at the traum sticking up for myself as a little kid with experiencing trauma that I went through when I was a little kid. That's huge. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I agree. Very important.
43:42
That's It has no It has no role in the house. off.
43:47
I'll deal with you in my own time, but I'm not going to deal with you in front of my kids.
43:51
Like, I'm not going to bring that along for the ride. And I did for a while.
43:55
That's probably what they mean by sometimes I would hear myself and I'd be like, "Shit, I sound like my mom." man. Like, what the is that?
44:01
And so, you really got to try to find a way past that as quick as you can because the relationship that you have with your family is pure. Yep.
44:10
They are coming into this and absorbing.
44:12
So, what they want to know is what what are we? Yep. And am I safe with you?
44:18
No matter how I my emotions are up, they're down, they're not what are we and and you were to you back then. Like, what are we? Yeah.
44:28
And that and that is beautiful.
44:30
And if you can get to that place where you can acknowledge that and also acknowledge, you know, the areas where you weren't at your best and just cop to it, man. Just cop to it.
44:37
Just be like, "Dude, I wasn't my best back then."
44:38
And they're like, "Cool."
44:40
That really clears up a lot of for me.
44:41
Apologizing, I've noticed has gone a long way with even with my three-year-old and my 2-year-old.
44:44
I I noticed that if hey, daddy daddy's had a long day and and and he lost he lost his patience.
44:52
And I should I should not have said that or shut the TV off so quick or whatever.
44:57
You can tell their whole even their shoulders, their presence, their whole thing kind of goes down because then it's like it's not your job to be right in front of your kids.
45:03
It's it's your job to show them that apologizing is is just as important.
45:06
Isn't that just that's what you do, dude?
45:09
You just you great artists listen to the find a present moment.
45:16
There's a tear in the thrash of life.
45:20
And in the middle of it all, the algorithms, the traffic, the car, the family, the drama, the unexpected the the good the hard there's a tear in it.
45:30
And you see a little bit of something that people just we don't see. So true.
45:35
And you go, I'm going to focus on that.
45:40
Cuz I believe that's important.
45:44
Cuz I believe that that that that should be captured forever. Yep.
45:47
and shared with people so we just have a little bit more of an understanding of what this whole thing is.
45:53
There's this from intro to the last song, the album has this very like gorilla energy of this like masculine don't you mess with my kids. I'll kill you. I'm ready to go. I'm a father figure.
46:07
I'm I'm I'm the last song is is like the opposite of that entire energy.
46:13
it actually kind of contradicts itself where you're just listening to this really scared guy who's very afraid of like everything that's going on.
46:17
I think we look at you and go, "Give us the answers."
46:21
And I think it's really powerful sometimes when you say, "I don't have them. None."
46:25
And I and I think that that's that to me what you just said genuinely is the entire to me uh sewer great that's stopping the renaissance of the thing.
46:42
So let's keep talking about that. Yeah.
46:44
what whatever that means.
46:46
It's like the the the the we're on the edge of the geyser.
46:52
It's like the Age of Aquarius Some some something's like ready to pop and the the collective consciousness feels like there's this moment where it's like we're just going to have to accept that we're human.
47:07
like the celebrity thing dies and this I just know because I'm around a lot of artists, a lot of their time is spent making sure that they remain the thing that they think people want them to be. Yeah.
47:20
And I promise you, if you were just exactly how you were designed, it will be more special and cosmic and universal than anything you could ever imagine.
47:29
Watch my album doesn't get reviewed well, but I'm just saying it's like it's like it's one of those things where it's like you're going to be out there doing a Instagram run.
47:38
You're going to be like, "Hey, it's John on TikTok."
47:39
I'll be like, "That guy's a bullshit." "Hey, it's John. What's up?"
47:44
I'm like, "Dancing John, we'll keep you honest, bro.