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And the clarity doesn't come through logic.
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The clarity comes through looking forward to every emotional experience.
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If I can't wait to feel like a failure, if I can't wait to feel sad, if I can't wait to feel loved, then my decision-m becomes really clear.
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And so learning that is tremendous freedom.
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Ignorance isn't an emotion, but it's caused by one.
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I don't want to have to go into a whole new world and learn something.
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I don't want to feel the fact that I'm wrong.
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That was another huge change that I made in my life was just to become incredibly grateful like for everything. >> Yeah.
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>> And God did my life change like amazingly. >> Yeah.
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I think it changes even more when we're grateful for fear.
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To me, fear is like an amazing signal in this system.
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There's almost no quicker path to becoming who you want to be in the world than following that fear than going into the places that you're scared. Well, hello everyone.
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It's Jim Oanaughy with yet another Infinite Loops.
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I was just saying to my guest Joe Hudson who is the coach to some of the greatest CEOs in the world a lot in Silicon Valley.
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Um how we I how excited I am because when I was going through uh his methodology and and watched some of his videos I thought wow we're kind of brothers from different mothers.
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Joe, you've had like an inc you have something that I love seeing on a CV that most people don't, and that is you've had a really varied background.
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You you know, you were doing fishing in Alaska, you taught at Head Start, you directed TV in Hollywood, then you were a VC, you ran a philanthropic organization.
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I I you know I think that kind of background allows for all sorts of insights that you wouldn't have if you just were doing one thing forever.
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But as I was going through your material >> I thought of the quote by P and so let's start there. >> Okay.
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>> P said it is always thus impelled by a state of mind that is destined not to last.
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We make our irrevocable choices. Haven't heard that one. That's lovely. Oh my goodness. I love that. >> I thought you would. >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness.
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>> Yeah, that's a great quote.
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>> It seems to me that everyone smiles and laughs at that because it the truth of it kind of instantly hits you when you hear it. >> Yeah.
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What I'd love to hear from you is you approach coaching in a very different way than traditional executive coaches.
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So if you wouldn't mind, let's just talk about that and I'd love to hear directly from you about your your process. >> Yeah.
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Uh so that's a lot that's a big topic.
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the the the the main thing I think that is that is I don't know if it's unique but it the the main thing for me about coaching is that like everything that I do it needs to be a form of self-development.
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It needs to be a way that I see myself more clearly.
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Venture capital was that for me. Art was that for me.
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Teaching was that for me.
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Teaching is that for me now.
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So whatever I'm doing, I know I won't do it for very long unless I'm learning about myself and developing as a human because if if that's not there, then I'm I just lose interest.
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That's always been what I was born I was born interested in that.
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Um and so it's always been some version of that.
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And so that's the the main piece for me.
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The the secondary piece is I really see that if a person has a pattern in their life that you're going to see it in the business, you're going to see in their relationships, you're going to see it in their relationship with themselves.
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And they're all reflections of one another.
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And so I might start with somebody, a CEO, talking about like how to fix um their marketing firm, the marketing part of their business.
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um and maybe two of the things they can just go and execute on and one they don't they can't execute on and that that's immediately where we're going to delve deeper into okay what's the perspective issue that is always going to be changing that if if we look at
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more deeply we can see the the pattern that's holding them back and typically when you find those patterns and you unlock them it doesn't just unlock the marketing firm it unlocks everything so for inance Since today I was working with a CEO having a hard time owning his wants. If you have a hard time really feeling
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If you have a hard time really feeling and owning your wants, you're probably not going to be great at accountability.
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You're probably going to be very um self-sufficient.
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You're not going to really be able to empower your team.
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And so if you flip that switch, and maybe you find it because you're having a hard time with accountability, maybe you find it because you your team doesn't feel safe because they don't know what you want.
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So they're just trying to make you happy, but they don't know how. So they feel anxious.
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But when you find it and you unlock it, it'll switch many many many parts of the business.
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>> You know, I I often think that uh when when you I'm a big uh art fan as well, and one of the observations I've always had is you almost always see the artist in their art. >> Yeah. >> Right.
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And like when you're reading a book, there's a great quote.
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I can't remember who said it, but it was like whether you're writing about a banker or a baker or a street sweeper, you're writing about yourself.
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>> And I'm taking a crack at writing fiction right now. I've written four books.
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I've never written fiction. Oh, wow.
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>> And it's really, really fun, but it's also really, really daunting.
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And and so when you're >> you really really like daunting because the smile on your face like how alive you got when you talked about doing this.
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So clearly daunting excites you. >> It does. It really does.
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Well, you know, it's kind of like one of those things where um the what what what you help people with like it seems to me a lot of people that I've kind of interacted with and and that have come to me for advice, it it it seems they get locked in, right?
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They get locked in and I think there's a lot of evolution in that primarily because, you know, coherence of character, etc.
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is like really really important to people which kind of leads to the illusion of the need for control >> which kind of when you when you want to control things you really aren't going to understand them in my opinion.
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>> I think you know you've got to just be curious and like wow that's something I didn't know.
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H how do you how do you approach somebody who's in that I should do this, I ought to do this, but I don't want to do this.
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>> Yeah, that's a good one.
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Uh so what I typically do is I will I will we'll we'll take a look at the 10 things in their lives that they've wanted to have changed for a decade that hasn't changed, >> and I'll point out that all of those are shoulds. Oh, that's really cool.
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>> And so, and so I'll point out how should is a version of shame, obligation, which actually creates stagnation.
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And so, it's just a really ineffective way of actually getting what you want.
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Shooting yourself just doesn't work.
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And you don't you don't need to be a scientist.
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You can like just look at your three-year-old or your 5-year-old and say, "You should do that."
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And then see how they react. No.
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And so whenever we use that kind of force with ourselves or others, it's it's like the cheapest dirtiest fuel that you can use.
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So why not use more efficient fuel?
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And wants are far more efficient fuel.
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So then the next thing that you have to then approach with them is okay, but if I just did what I wanted, I'll just lay on the couch and drink beer all all day.
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And so I'll propose the following experiment.
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I'll say let's find out if that's true.
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Let's take a week and you do only what you want to do.
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Just do don't do anything that you don't want to do.
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And I did that experiment myself and they all come across the same thing that I came across at some point.
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And for me it was I was in the kitchen looking at a trash can.
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I do not want to take out the trash.
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I also did not want to smell the trash. So here I am.
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I'm only going to do what I want to do, but I don't want to take out the trash and I don't want to smell the trash.
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I I literally sat there perplexed for more minutes than I would like to count going, well, what do what do I do?
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Cuz I'm not I'm not doing anything I don't want to do.
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And I realized that the enjoyment of something has is part what you're doing, but it's part how you're doing it.
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>> And so the question came to me, how do I want to take out the trash?
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Or how do I want to live with the smell?
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And I was like, "Oh, I want to take out the trash.
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I don't want to live with that smell."
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And so then, how do I want to do that in a way that's I'm going to actually enjoy?
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And then that flipped the narration cuz what happens when your brain is saying, "This is the thing I want.
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This is the thing I don't want."
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We're in binary thinking, which is very fear-based.
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So often times the question is, "Well, I don't want to work out." Okay, cool. I should work out. Okay.
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Well, if you had to work out in a way you wanted to, what would that look like?
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And then that opens up the mind to wonder and possibility that before was always just a very, you know, A or B situation, which never works. >> Yeah.
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I say all the time to the point of people pointing out to me saying, Jim, will you just stop saying that?
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I mean, we get it, but like I think one of our big problems is that we are deterministic thinkers.
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Either or, yes, no, black, white, but we're living in a probabilistic world.
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>> And then I usually tag on hilarity or tragedy often ensue, right?
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>> And and and it seems weird to me. >> Well, Jim, nice.
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>> It seems weird to me that we have these kind of unwritten game rules.
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Are are you a fan of Robert Anton Wilson?
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>> I don't know who that is.
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>> Oh, I think you'd love him.
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>> Going through your stuff, I I can highly recommend all of his work.
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I'd start with Prometheus Unbound and Quantum Psychology.
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I think you'd really enjoy what he does.
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Essentially, his idea is that we all live in a world of unwritten game rules.
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Like, if you've never played poker, right, and you start to play poker, >> I get it. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The beautiful.
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So, are those game rules kind of controlling us and getting us into this deterministic line of thought?
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Is it just because that's the way we evolved?
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I mean, like, what's the key?
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>> So, to me, the the the the the thing that the bigger mistake is thinking that it's logical and not emotional.
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And so if you look at the decision-m apparatus in our neurology, it is it happens mostly in the emotional center of our brain.
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There's some that happens pre-emotional center and that's nervous system like the way we jump away from a snake. >> Mh.
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>> But generally our decision-m patterns happen in the brain.
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And if you take somebody's that part of their brain and you damage it, they cease to make decisions even though their IQ stays the same.
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So, you know, it'll take them a half an hour to decide what color pen to use.
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And so, their life falls apart because they can't make decisions cuz we're actually making emotional decisions.
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And what that means is we're making a decision because we want to feel one way or another.
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We're switching on our phone because we don't want to feel away or because we want to feel away.
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We are having that cigarette because we want to feel away or not feel away.
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We want we we're productive because we want to feel away.
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And so if you think about your life as how many things have you done to feel loved or to not feel like a failure or to feel like you're contributing or to not feel scared or afraid, you can start seeing like, oh wow, all my decisions are made this way.
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And I think that's the part that's unseen.
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And so how that particularly pertains to what you were saying is that what I noticed is when people go into fear and they might not even be aware of it, but a couple things happen to our decision-making apparatus.
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The first one is we do black and white thinking.
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The second thing we do is we have a false end.
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And that's a really important one.
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So we think if I do that, I might get fired.
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But we don't think what happens after we get fired. Right?
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So, and then the other thing is we when we're even if you think I have to make a decision, there's fear in play.
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Like today, you've made a thousand choices.
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We're not going to call them decisions, but they all happen naturally.
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If you go, "Oh my gosh, I have to really make a decision here."
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You're already scared of the consequences.
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So, it's already you're already in the game and the emotion is already running the show.
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And the clarity doesn't come through logic.
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The clarity comes through looking forward to every emotional experience.
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If I can't wait to feel like a failure, if I can't wait to feel sad, if I can't wait to feel loved, then my decision-m becomes really clear.
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And so learning that is is tremendous freedom. >> Yeah.
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um as uh one who for decades was an empirically driven quantitative investor um you know I I nevertheless totally understand in fact I've said back in my asset management days I said you know the four horsemen of the investment apocalypse are fear greed hope and ignorance and only one of them ignorance is not an emotion we are so controlled by fear in my opinion. >> Oh yeah.
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>> That it blocks out so much of the world from us. >> Yeah.
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>> And and you know it >> ignorance isn't an emotion, but it's caused by one. >> Good point. Good point. >> Yeah.
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>> Let's talk about that for a minute. >> Yeah.
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>> Yeah. I often times there's a choice to I wouldn't say there's a choice to stay ignorant but I would say that there is a fear of feeling some way that makes ignorance >> the the default >> yeah the prefer right
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>> I don't want to have to go into a whole new world and learn something I don't want to feel the fact that I'm wrong that I don't know what I'm talking about I don't want to feel uh like I might have to upend my entire world because of my ignorance. >> That's really insightful. Um, and you
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>> That's really insightful.
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Um, and you know, it seems to me, uh, there's a great quote, uh, the smartest thing I ever did was stop being smart.
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And like literally it opened up my world, right?
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And and I just got in the habit of saying, I don't know.
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And in asset management, like most people looked at me like, are you trying to commit career suicide here?
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And so I learned to add, I don't know, but I'm going to try and find out. >> Yeah.
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>> And the interesting dichotomy here to me is that so much of like the super high performers in any industry in life, right? >> Yeah.
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>> Basically, they're they're driven by an insatiable curiosity, right?
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And the idea also though that like what I don't know just fills up like I I can't even put a a geographic uh size on it because you know maybe the universe.
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And so to me it's kind of like wow all the [ __ ] I don't know that just for me it's like but I get to learn about. And how cool is that?
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Why is that not the dominant uh drive in in our human OS? >> I think it is.
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I think that that it just gets derailed by critical parents. >> Okay. Yeah.
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So I think like if you look at babies and there there's a study about like when they smile and they smile most when they're playing and learning.
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That's like that's when they so and we are all curious and it's our nature to be curious.
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But if you get told that you are going to be punished if you're excited, if you get told you're going to get punished if you're wrong, if you have a critical parent with a deep their own critical voice and they're projecting all that on to you, they're making you make sure that you're right, that you performed well, blah blah blah.
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Then that becomes an override to the curiosity. >> Yeah. Right.
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So some people their curiosity is so strong that it doesn't affect them as much and some of them they learn to use curiosity to be the performer to please the parent >> but generally like we're all naturally curious you know >> totally and you know that's the whole beginner's mind and I I like the the segue to uh we had the natural curiosity kind of beaten out of us, right?
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Like, have you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Bob? >> Way back. >> Yeah.
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Remember, there's a great passage in there where he talks about where uh kids are just naturally doing what they want, right? Hell no.
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They're they're they're doing what their parents, what their teachers, what you know, society tells them to do and be so that they are useful members of society.
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And like to me, uh, you know, when I was younger, it it took me a long time to realize it, but one of the subtle messages I got from my parents was make everything look effortless.
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And like that really [ __ ] me up for my the early part of my career because it was like but this is hard. Wow.
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What was what was their what was their survival mechanis?
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Like what made it looking effortless was important to their survival or like what made that important to them? Do you know? Yeah, I think I do.
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Uh, my grandfather was incredibly successful in the oil industry for a time.
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He had the world's largest privately owned oil company >> called Globe Oil and Refining.
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And he ended up uh giving away like 95% of his own fortune during his own lifetime.
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>> So, he had like a 75 year jump on all those pledge guys.
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Uh but but so >> was it was I know this is weird to ask but was this like Texas Oklahoma area or was he international? >> International. >> Oh wow.
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>> Um and but but the beginning was uh Oklahoma Texas that those areas >> and then uh he he was an amaz I I was incredibly lucky because I'm the youngest in my generation uh and I'm 65 now so that shows you how old all my cousins are.
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Uh but like he was born in 1885 and he was the only grandparent that I ever knew.
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Um and he'd lost my grandmother and so I grew up in St.
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Paul, Minnesota where he lived even though the oil was elsewhere.
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Uh his wife said you can run anywhere to the world with your company you want but we're living in St.
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Paul, Minnesota because >> you're traveling anyway. So >> exactly.
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But anyway, uh so I I got a chance to learn a lot from him.
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So I maybe uh I don't know if it was out of fear but almost out of respect difference to him in that like we >> I could see him I could see how his business how making it look easy would be an important aspect in that business. >> Yeah.
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I find that a lot of leaders of what I I'll call like commoditydriven businesses, it's really important that they feel like calm, collected, and it's easy.
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Like if I look at farmers of like 10,000 plus acres, they have that same demeanor.
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I can see why it would be important. >> Yeah.
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And and so I won't lie, it actually helped a lot of when I was really young, it actually helped a lot. >> Yeah.
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Uh but then you know I I started to understand that this is pissing me off like like this is hard.
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What I'm doing is hard and no one seems to be acknowledging that.
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And then I kind of thought to I I'm a big journal keeper.
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I've kept journals for most of my adult life, all of my adult life.
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And like that was one of the common themes that I realized that like I kind of wanted that acknowledgement.
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Hey, you're you're working really hard here.
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>> Uh and and I never got it.
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But getting over that was really really helpful because, you know, it was much more true to what was actually going on right in my life.
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Do do you think that there is is there like an under I'm a I'm a huge um uh rabbit hole diver and and one one of the things that we have an internal AI uh at Oshi Ventures >> um and and we're doing in silica uh AB tests and so one of the things that and
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these are for you know things that we want to see what people like right >> yeah yeah >> and one of the first group of um of the sims that we developed, we all developed them on various ocean scores from the big five. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
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>> Do you think there is a commonality between the people that you're coaching?
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Is there an underlying like pattern uh to the behavior? >> Yeah.
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So, first of all, like let's geek out if you'd want a rabbit hole.
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Let's geek out on the big five for a second.
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So the the idea behind the big five at least at one point was that here are these five metrics uh that are supposed to stay consistent through a person's lifetime their adult lifetime.
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O of ocean is open closed. Uh C is conscientious. E is introvert.
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Extrovert >> I think it's yeah extrovert. Yeah >> yeah extrovert.
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um agreeable and uh neurotic and so they know that psychedelics actually change the openness score over time.
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We have a our week-long program we change neurosis by almost the standard deviation 30 third 3 months after the after the retreat is finished.
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>> So the first thing I say about the ocean scorers and and my experience personally is that those things some of those things do change.
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they they they're prone not to.
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They're kind of the more entrenched pieces, but they do change.
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And so I I just want to say that because a lot of people when they listen to the ocean, they think that this is this part of me that can't be changed.
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And there's even, if I recall correctly, there's even studies that are, you know, women in general are more agreeable than men.
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But I am confident that there are some cultures where that is not true.
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Um, so and I haven't seen the studies that actually have looked culturally to see if some of these things that are very true in some areas aren't true in other areas.
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So, so with all that said, um, what I've seen is that in it's more of like as far as what ocean scores, it depends on the type of business.
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So for instance, tech entrepreneurs almost always score high on openness.
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They're they're thinking about something that most people don't think are possible that they think is going to be possible that requires a pretty high openness.
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But if I'm dealing with CEOs who are, you know, commodity based manufacturers, there's no there's no consistency and openness at all. Mh.
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>> And so I think that there's, you know, if I'm dealing with hedge fund managers, more openness generally, especially the ones who are at the top of them, you know, not running like one revenue stream of a hedge fund, but like actually thinking about the whole thing.
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Um, and then there's usually like, so for instance, in a hedge fund typically there's the person who's like creative ideas and then the person who basically hedges the bet or sizes the bet.
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there's the bet thinker and the sizer of the bet and that they have different, you know, aspects.
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So, so there's a lot of there's a lot of ways to think about it that way.
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Um, as far as like across all and there's definitely more or less neurotic.
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I do notice that the neurotic CEOs don't last as long like I just want to cash out usually is a higher neuro neurotic score than the ones who are like, you know, teladine.
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I want I'm going to be here forever.
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>> Every single day >> and like like this I'm doing my life's work and why would I cash out?
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This is like this is what I'm here to do which is probably your grandfather it sounds like.
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>> Um and so so the neurosis score kind of tells you how quickly they're going to duck out if they're going to cash out.
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And then typically those folks then burn out for 2 to 5 years in their pajamas and beat themselves up for not doing the next thing.
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Like that's I'm sure you have a couple dozen friends who fall into that category. >> Yep.
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>> And so so that's more about neurosis.
26:55
Um, the one thing that I see that kills almost all CEOs except for there's one that there there's kind of an exception, but it's um agreeable.
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They can't be highly agreeable.
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Most CEOs can't be highly agreeable because you're going to have to piss off people.
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You you can't be too conflict avoidant and be successful.
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You will you will blow up at some point.
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And so most CEOs are not highly agreeable.
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That would be one of the ones that I would say I've seen introverted and extroverted.
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Most of them are more extroverted as far as that they can go out and be in the public.
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But it doesn't mean they resource.
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The real uh introverted extroversion particular piece of it to me is do you resource with people or do you resource by yourself?
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And I see both in in that.
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So I don't see a really a change in that.
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and conscientious and non-concientious totally different you know I've seen very successful non-concientious by the hip CEOs and then ones that are that font is incorrect what's going on there and both can be successful depending on the business so so I I don't think ocean score is that that much but what I can say is that the super high achieving super high achieving they seem to fall into two categories.
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The one category is and they would all like to think they're in the one category, >> of course, >> but but the one category is is actually a far less.
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So most of them have the like I mean uber successful folks, >> they at at the same time feel like they're better than most people and they hold a deep shame in inside of them.
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So both of those two things are happening at once.
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They're subtly putting themselves above folks and at the same time there's something that they're like trying to prove to the world that they're good enough.
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And so that that that that component is there for a lot of hypers successful.
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There's probably 20 to 30% of the hyper successful people just fully driven by passion and love and curiosity and how the [ __ ] did I get here?
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Like I like this is great.
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I'm glad this is happening, but like like I understand there's some luck to this and it worked out and I'm passionate.
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I'm obsessed, but I'm not I'm not there's nothing no part of me trying to prove myself or I don't drive that shame or think I'm better than.
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And so a lot of my work with some CEOs is getting them from point like from the I'm better than and that deep shame to oh like this is I'm just following my calling my drive. >> Yeah.
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Just like treating myself as the patient here.
29:56
Uh I think uh I started life on that first uh definition.
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Uh my the joke my father was pretty good at at making fun of me.
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Uh two of his better lines were were uh I I had had some horrible thing happen in my early career and I was uh up at my parents house and I was chatting with my mom and he walked in and he goes, "Why are you looking so glum?"
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And you know, I explained to him what had happened and he kind of paused and smirked a little bit and said, "I wouldn't worry about it too much, Jim.
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You have a remarkably reinflatable ego."
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Then another one of his lines was he goes uh and this is when I was a kid.
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He was like, "Jim, have you have you ever heard of what they call an inferiority complex?" And I went, "No, Daddy. What is that?" He explained it to me.
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And I went, "Why are you telling me this, Dad?"
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He goes, "Well, Jim, because I think you have a superiority complex."
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>> But but I I I think uh I I started there.
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I think I think I'm now in the other camp.
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>> Um, how do you help your clients wherever they start?
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How do you get them into the passion, joy, love? >> Yeah.
31:21
So, I I I see the the way I work with the human system is that I think about it as three centers.
31:28
You could call it the head, heart, gut center.
31:31
You could call it the preffrontal cortex, the nervous system, and the emotional center of the brain.
31:40
Lots of ways to think about it, but it's generally the the three things that drive us is the nervous system response, the emotional response, and the intellectual response.
31:52
And so, intellectually um the the trick is to see through the personalness.
31:59
like the the move is to see that it isn't about you.
32:06
Um, and so most of the pain, if you look at somebody who's like deeply depressed or deeply narcissistic or has borderline personality, the more sick in most realms we get psychologically, we're just thinking about ourselves more and more and more and more and more and more and more.
32:24
And if you look at whether it's human development scales or uh the Buddhist awakening scales or Christ consciousness or whatever any kind of deep healing, excuse me, um often comes through seeing through the self, seeing that you are one with everything or seeing that you know the problem that you think you have, you're not going to have in 10 years.
32:53
It's like any way that gives you space away from the self creates a lot of healing and and by extension space from any thought that you have.
33:02
Meaning, oh that's a thought that's not me.
33:08
Oh, look at that thought.
33:08
It doesn't mean I'm a bad person because I have that thought. It's just a thought. Look at that thing.
33:12
And so, so that's the that's what you do in the head state of mind. Right?
33:17
And then the the heart, the emotional center um of the brain, the work is to learn how to invite and love all the emotional experiences because most of the time when we're putting ourselves above, it's to protect ourselves emotionally.
33:31
If I judge you, it's because I'm trying not to feel something.
33:38
I'm trying not to feel a part of myself and I'm trying not to feel a part of you.
33:42
So anytime I'm putting myself above somebody, it's a protection mechanism to not feel an emotional experience.
33:46
So it's an invitation into feeling all of the feelings that come up if you can't make yourself better than the other person.
33:56
And typically that means feeling into shame, which is this stagnation emotion that stagnates deeply.
34:04
And so if you think about shame, it's, you know, you're a little kid on a couch.
34:08
is my famous my my my favorite um somewhat somewhat uh uh irreverent example.
34:19
You're sitting on a couch. You're a little kid.
34:20
You're with your aunts and you fart and the aunts laugh.
34:22
You're going to keep on farting. It's free, right?
34:27
If you sit on the couch and you fart and your aunts shame you, you're going to hold it in.
34:31
And so that shame is designed to make you stop. Stop crying. stop getting angry.
34:37
Stop stop being yourself on some level.
34:40
Stop being just naturally who you are.
34:46
And and so you have to really work on that shame to be able to to see through that.
34:53
Um and then the on the nervous system level, it's all about being under attack.
35:00
Typically, somebody in that situation is constantly looking for the attack because a lot of the attack is coming from their own thoughts, their own self-critical head talking to them. Why didn't you do that? Why' you you so stupid.
35:10
And so, it's really about learning how to allow the nervous system to feel pleasure, to not always be in a state of attack.
35:18
And so, the more that you allow the nervous system to feel pleasure, the more you learn to love and experience all these emotions that seem like they're hard, but they're actually not hard.
35:29
They're just the resistance to them is hard.
35:31
And then to see through the sense of self or see through your thoughts, especially the negative selft talk, the voice in your head, then that's that's basically what moves people.
35:44
The uh one of the tricks that I learned uh a while back was I started when I when I was facing something that was particularly vexing me.
35:52
Uh I I would start asking myself and writing.
35:55
I think writing by hand is a really important thing because it engages different parts of the brain. >> Yeah.
36:02
Um >> there's a lot of study on that by the way. >> Yeah.
36:07
>> And Newberg is a I think he had the enlightened brain or something like that and he talks about free form writing and how that's >> Yeah.
36:14
But one of the questions that I would ask myself was what would a disinterested observer think about this situation and what would what would uh he or she say to me? >> Yeah.
36:28
>> And and it really really worked for me.
36:30
Um but then I I I I brought it up to my wife.
36:34
We were having an argument about something and and and I said, "Well, honey, let's look.
36:38
What do you think a disinterested obser?" She got so mad at me. I bet she did.
36:45
She was like, "What the [ __ ] are you talking about?
36:48
This is about me and you.
36:51
What do you mean dis Are you saying you're a disinterested observer?" >> No. No. No.
36:59
>> How long ago was this?
36:59
Was this when you were still in the like better than uh place?
37:04
>> Uh, it was probably at the transition point.
37:06
point. I I I I was doing a lot of you know uh fear is is or anger rather is fear's watchdog I think and and so like another thing was uh when I was younger I was a very emotional person and one of the things I through experience I was like back to the never
37:32
let them see you sweat don't make everything look easy >> I realized that for you know maybe most of my 20s I was repressing the hell out of anger out of frustration out of all of those things led me to Are you familiar with the work of John Sarno? >> I am. It's been a while. >> I am. It's been a while. >> Yeah. He's the mind body guy. >> Yeah. Okay. Right. Right.
37:55
>> He he was a doctor here in New York at NYU re rehabilitation medicine and he was pissed off that he wasn't helping anybody like at that time.
38:03
I think it was in the 50s or 60s, most of the complaints that came in were like back pain, things like that.
38:12
>> And Oh, I do know his work. Absolutely. Yeah. >> Right.
38:14
And so he he realized, you know what, this has nothing to do with the physical structure of these people's bodies.
38:20
This is all somatic and but everyone hates the word psychossematic, right?
38:26
And so his his uh books really unlocked it for me because like when I read them I'm like oh holy [ __ ] I'm on every page of this book. >> Right. Right. Right. Totally.
38:40
>> And then you know as as I continued to be really interested in that and how we embody or we suppress a lot of these things and it takes a a toll on us. Yeah.
38:51
on our bodies in particular because what Sarno said basically was when you repress especially anger and rage and he also has shame on there. >> Yeah.
39:02
>> It the you the real you. >> Yeah.
39:07
>> Let's has to express it somehow.
39:07
So how does it express it?
39:09
Through physical problems with your body >> and negative self-t talk >> and negative selft talk and they reinforce each other. Right.
39:17
And so this is when I guess I was in my 30s and I woke up one morning with a frozen neck.
39:25
And people who are just listening to us and not watching won't see me do this, but I couldn't move my neck any more than this.
39:30
And I'm only moving it like a degree or two here.
39:32
And so I did what everyone would does.
39:34
I went to all the doctors.
39:36
They gave me the cortisone shots. Nothing worked.
39:38
One guy put me in traction and like I'm sitting there in pain because it was a closet traction system.
39:46
So, I had to put a chair at in between my closet.
39:49
My wife came in and just started laughing at me.
39:51
And so, anyway, I'm at the bookstore and I find Sarno's book, Mind Over Back Pain.
39:57
>> And the first time I read it, like, I'm really not kidding you. I I was so disgusted.
40:02
I literally threw the book across the room.
40:06
>> And I was like, that's >> what your first expression of anger. Congratulations. >> Exactly.
40:09
Well, I came to understand that.
40:12
That's very intuitive of you because like I'm like that is such [ __ ] This guy is just he has no idea what he's talking about it and then like I thought you know what I better read it again.
40:23
By the seventh time I'd read it I saw myself on every page and guess what happened?
40:28
My back or my neck pain completely disappeared. >> Yeah.
40:34
We in our in our in-person retreats like the one that changes the neurosis score we do anger expression because exactly like to and it and I've seen it totally change people's physical world because if if I say to you hey stop feeling right now really actually try to not feel any emotion every one of your muscles has to constrict.
41:04
So if I am not living with with with anger then I'm constantly constricting >> and so so you'll see people when they start moving their their anger or their sadness or their fear their whole life changes >> that >> and not just their body it's also their relationship everything changes. >> Yeah.
41:27
and and one of the things as I was reading your your work uh was you're really good at micro expressions, body language, etc.
41:36
And that was something that always fascinated me as well.
41:38
Um and and talk to us a little bit about how do you help people kind of see that in themselves? >> Yeah.
41:50
So before I do go, there's this one little thread that we have which is I think probably with your audience and and people thinking about being better than others.
42:00
than others. Um, one little thing I want to point out is like when I heard what your wife did in response, like what do you mean like an disinterested observer typically a pattern that I see that and this would point to a probability of this pattern when you were in that state
42:15
of feeling better than then there was a subtle way in which like you were the smart one and your wife was the emotional one or you were like there's this thing and so >> anything that dismissed her like that emotionally dismissive disinterested would be the exact thing that she would, "No, I'm not." And it sounds like you're
42:32
And it sounds like you're very lucky, like I was, to have a very strong willed wife who was like, >> "I'm not going to accept this [ __ ] I know my emotional world has some validation, so go like now, I'm not going to buy your crap, right?"
42:46
>> And so, and so we were lucky enough.
42:46
>> And so, and so we were lucky enough. And so to me, what I noticed is that when people are in that relationship and they're like, I'm better and and you're the emotional one and I'm the logical one and I'm that they're they're in that relationship together because they're
43:02
trying to actually find that balance of the what you did with the back pain like having this emotional life with this intellectual life and and and I don't know if it happened for your wife, but probably as you went through this transition, your wife also became a little more in the intellect. ual space
43:17
ual space and all of a sudden you were communicating better and and that's a really common pattern that I see happen as as somebody comes out of that world of better than and shame.
43:31
So yeah, >> and the interesting thing to me uh well all of this is interesting to me.
43:35
Um but you know like the let's talk about fear for a little bit.
43:43
>> Um like I think fe you know how the one ring to rule them all.
43:47
I I think that fear maybe after reinteracting with your stuff I think shame might be an equal partner up there. >> Yeah.
43:56
Uh but what is it about our operating system right our our human OS what why is fear such a prominent part of like you know there's a great quote fear grabs gratitude releases fear controls gratitude surrenders fear repels gratitude attracts >> and that was another huge change that I made in my life luckily early on was just to become incredibly grateful like for everything. >> Yeah.
44:28
>> And God did my life change like amazingly. >> Yeah.
44:32
I think it changes even more when we're grateful for fear. >> Okay.
44:36
>> Instead of like, oh, we're like the resistance of fear is just fear of fear.
44:42
Like you're just like you're double betting, right? You're just >> fear. Metaphar.
44:45
>> You're like not I'm not even going to hedge my bet.
44:47
I'm just going to double down on fear.
44:50
>> Um to me fear is like an amazing signal in the system.
44:53
Fear is telling me, "Oh, I am not I am not taking care of myself in some way."
44:59
Fear is telling me that I am I'm not on I'm like not aligned in my purpose. Right?
45:06
There's this great um thought process which is even a man with a gun doesn't have power over a person who's not scared to die.
45:14
M I love >> and if you're deeply living in your alignment then it the consequences don't particularly matter right we all know like oh most of us I would step in front of a car for my kid in a heartbeat I wouldn't care about the consequences that's like because that's such a deeply aligned thing in me and so if I'm in fear man there's something I'm not aligned with that's a signal that's fant Fantastic. Thank you.
45:45
You know, so so to me, I I I love fear. I love that.
45:49
And and there's almost no quicker path to like becoming who you want to be in the world, to finding your own freedom, than following that fear, then going into the places that you're scared.
46:07
So it's it's not just a signal. It also is a direction.
46:12
Oh, I'm scared of that thing. Let's go.
46:14
I'm scared of that emotion.
46:14
Let's go feel that emotion.
46:16
You know, I'm I'm scared of that conversation.
46:18
Let's go have that conversation.
46:20
Those are all the places I'm going to grow the most. >> Yeah.
46:26
That reminds me of Joseph Campbell's line, uh, the treasure you seek is in the cave you fear to enter. >> Exactly.
46:33
>> And >> that's exactly it.
46:35
>> For me, I think that it's the like I I passionately believe we need both Apollo and Dionis.
46:42
We need both Sparta and Athens. Right. >> Right.
46:47
>> And it's that synthesis of those views that I think help you really progress >> um and and avoid kind of like >> we need both Spock and Dr.
47:00
McCoy for those who liked Star Trek.
47:05
>> Um and but it also seems a lot >> often often represented in the mind, right?
47:12
the prefrontal cortex, the the the very logical but not particularly attached to the body, the emotional like the kirk, the emotional part of our body that's actually making the decisions actually the captain of the ship, right?
47:27
And then there's the id like god damn it doctor like which is like that nervous system level. No, this is like gut. This is my gut reaction.
47:37
It's like oftentimes those characters or those personas in society or the or the Republicans and Democrats or they're all they're actually just representations of parts of our own psyche.
47:51
>> Uh my friend Roy Sutherland says that the prefrontal cortex thinks it's the boss, but it's actually the press office.
47:59
The the bo the boss is the emotional part of your brain. I always love that.
48:07
>> It's it's the commentator. >> You're right.
48:10
>> And I often put up on on on uh Twitter uh you know uh this this gift of this kid going because of reasons.
48:19
>> Uh because I I honestly believe that many of the decisions that we make are emotionally based >> and then we paper them over after making the decision. >> Absolutely. Yeah.
48:29
We paper them over with rationality. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah.
48:33
It's there's there's evidence of that.
48:34
There's also this other re evidence you you talk about, you know, the consciousness is in the the the consciousness of the creator is in the creation.
48:42
We talked about that earlier.
48:44
So, as it turns out, like highly highly rational people, really really smart people can convince themselves of very illogical things and are more prone to do it than not smart people, as it turns out.
48:58
And if you're an investor, you get to see this all the time.
49:00
It's like here's this person.
49:02
They're totally logically consistent, very illogically consistent in what this is going to make a very bad investment, but they cannot see it because they see themselves as so logical, right?
49:12
Like you're you've seen this, right?
49:14
So what's interesting to me is so look at AI really, really, really, really smart people.
49:25
And there's the consciousness that hallucinates every once in a while.
49:27
It's completely illogical.
49:30
Like there's the consciousness of the creator in the creation.
49:34
>> Yeah, >> it's amazing.
49:34
And you just Yeah, you see that all the time.
49:36
But a absolutely >> I I I I think that um the I I love that bit about the uh smart people are are actually the easiest to fool themselves, right?
49:54
>> And it's because they're so smart that they can do it.
49:55
They they build steelman arguments that are like you can't get in.
50:02
There's not even an edge to get in.
50:05
>> And I'm reminded of the guy and I don't remember his name uh but he was uh super smart uh psychologist psychiatrist uh who wrote about why people fall for conmen.
50:17
And uh the book was published on basically the same day that he'd learned that he'd lost everything because his investments were all with Bernie Maidoff.
50:28
[Laughter] >> Oh, he even knew it on some level.
50:32
He even knew it on some level, >> right? He had to. Right.
50:36
Because Peter Ducker, I'm not like much I don't I'm not a big read management books, but one of Peter Ducker's books is great and it's called Adventures of a Bystander.
50:49
>> And it's little vignettes of all the people that he dealt with over his career.
50:54
>> And one of my favorites was this Ernest Freriededberg who was a merchant banker in London in the 30s and he had these young pups who were the, you know, the the go-to guys, right?
51:02
They were like >> they were the superstars.
51:05
and he had hired them to run his Freedburgen company and and so they got a chance at this great deal, right?
51:12
And it turned out, spoiler alert, the guy was a total fraud.
51:18
And but they everyone in the city was investing with this guy.
51:20
They were just delighted that he they got a chance to invest with this guy >> and Freedberg sat in the meeting with them and at the end of it they were like, "How much should we put in?
51:31
Like can we do the whole max?"
51:33
And he goes, "We're not putting a dime in. That guy's a fraud."
51:37
And and frankly, young men, I'm really shocked that you don't know that.
51:42
And they're like, "Take it back."
51:44
And and they're like, "What do you what do you h what do you mean?"
51:46
And he goes, "That man knew the answer to every question. No honest man does."
51:51
And later, of course, it turned out that the guy was a total fraud.
52:00
>> And so, how much of that do you like see in your work?
52:02
cuz you're obviously you're you're dealing with the right half of the bell curve here, right?
52:05
And and these are super bright uh ambitious people.
52:11
>> How do you deal with when you see, oh, they've they've logicked themselves into a logic box that they can't escape from? >> Yeah.
52:21
So, that's a great question. There's a couple things.
52:24
First of all, I I solve the problems that people want to solve with them.
52:27
Like I help people solve the problems that they think they have, not the ones that I think they have.
52:34
>> So what I notice about the human system is that the more we refine, the more sensitive we are, the less that we are willing to accept.
52:45
>> So I understand myself a little bit more.
52:47
Therefore, I h I'm more sensitive.
52:50
Therefore, I won't put up with more behaviors.
52:53
I'm not gonna put up with somebody lying to me or I'm not gonna put up with me lying to myself.
52:57
So, so typically I want to meet the person where they are and work on what they want to work on because their intelligence of where they should go next and and what what's motivating them is they understand themselves more than I ever can on some level.
53:14
Just like the Bernie Maidoff guy, he knew he knew something.
53:18
My job is just to get him in touch with that knowing.
53:21
it isn't to tell him what I know.
53:25
And so in that process, I don't really care where they're blinding themselves because I know eventually if they keep on doing the work, they will run into that and go, "Okay, wait, no, this is where I'm and sometimes I'll be I'll say, "Oh, I noticed that thing over there. My thesis is X."
53:46
And if I'm right, you'll see why in the next couple months, years.
53:49
And then when it happens, there's some trust that's been built and they're like, "What else do you see?"
53:55
You know, and so there might be something like that that happens, but I don't need that to happen.
54:00
Um, I'm just interested in following them.
54:03
And so that's a really big part of of the work I do.
54:05
And then the other the other piece is that if I see something where they're mentally blocked, I just usually go to one of the other centers.
54:15
other centers. I'll go to the emotions or I'll go to the nervous system because the just like the the the maid off guy maid off I can't but he actually called himself maid off um I never thought about that I love it um >> whiplash exactly exactly I'm John E scam artist uh >> I'm Joe Jail Exactly uh so is that the heart knows like something
54:54
in him knew right so I'll just say let's not let's let's move away from the mind for a second what is your like I'll let's work on the nervous system let's work on the emotions because to some degree if that person knew he was very smart writing about conmen knew the maid off thing on some level because if he was working on it. Most likely the reason he didn't admit
55:16
Most likely the reason he didn't admit it to himself is because he didn't want to have to have that feeling of being wrong or whatever it is.
55:23
And so if he had made friends with the feeling of being wrong, if he had said, "Oh, wow.
55:30
Being wrong isn't bad if I don't resist it. Being wrong is a signal.
55:34
Being wrong is actually something that allows me to have more freedom if I allow it."
55:38
Then the whole thing wouldn't have happened.
55:41
So typically that's the other thing is just get some of the other emotional get some of the other intelligences on board not just the mental intelligence.
55:49
mental intelligence. I think that the the study is something like we get what it like less than 20 bits of information from the brain in a second but we get like 40,000 bits of information from the body that we have nervous system brain many brains in the gut and in the and in the heart and so there's just there's other information you and you see it if a professional basketball player isn't
56:14
thinking when they're playing there's a whole another way of considering and So just bring them into that >> and and that uh one of the pioneers in explaining that was a woman named Candace Per who wrote a book called
56:30
molecules of emotion and she basically uh she was a biologist and she >> uh identified that when a strong emotion hit us right literally a cascade of neuropeptides go throughout the entire body. >> Oh yeah. and and that the challenge like >> Oh yeah.
56:48
and and that the challenge like the Puce quote that I read to you at the beginning of our chat is to like wait the 90 seconds for those to clear and as you put it just oh that's an interesting emotion.
57:03
One of the one of the things that I did was I gave them colors >> and and and it was like oh I'm seeing red.
57:11
Okay, why I wonder why why am why why am I so pissed off? Like what could it be?
57:16
uh you know contentment and happiness was yellow and you know I won't go through my entire system but I definitely think that the the tripart way of looking at it is is super important.
57:31
What do you do for with the client who's resistant?
57:33
Who's like, "Yeah, no, [ __ ] you. We're gonna keep this.
57:37
>> I don't work with them." >> Oh, good for you. Okay, great. That >> Yeah.
57:41
No, I I like I have x amount of bandwidth. >> Yeah.
57:45
>> And I'm going to go where I'm going to have the biggest impact.
57:48
>> What's funny is Sarno did the same thing.
57:52
>> He um because he was a medical doctor, right?
57:54
And he and he was all about, okay, here's my thesis, my hypothesis.
57:56
I want to test it, see what the results are, see if it's confirmed or negated, etc.
58:03
But then he did something after looking at all of the data over like I can't remember how long it was, but it was a long period of time.
58:10
And he made the decision, I am only going to treat patients who accept that it could be a problem that they're having with emotions rather than a physical problem. >> Yeah.
58:22
>> And and like his success rate soared. >> Yeah.
58:26
because he he realized, well, wait a minute, I'm not going to change this person if he absolutely just does not believe or is open to this possibility.
58:39
So, I'm happy to hear you say that. That's really smart.
58:42
>> There there is an exception to that rule, but it's it's so everybody hits resistance in the path.
58:46
There's no way that you go through all of the transformation without moments of resistance. >> Sure.
58:54
And there are there's also a personality type that's I I call like the endurer.
58:56
I am I am in that personality type where there's a there's usually physical components to them um as well.
59:06
But there's what I would call the endure personality type which is I will win by taking it.
59:14
So like I >> I'm going to die on that hill.
59:19
Would that be the right metaphor or analogy?
59:23
>> It's more like the way I'd say their childhood was the only way I got to maintain a sense of self is by resisting you. >> Ah, >> mom, dad. Got it.
59:33
>> So, they just like learn to resist.
59:33
And part of that is part of their job is to >> that personality structure resists coaching.
59:41
They they need to prove that the coach is wrong.
59:43
So that even though they might come in and very willing and they're willing to do the work, there's going to be certain places where they dig their heels in and they're just like, I am not going there.
59:52
And um and so I have like maybe 10 or 12 tools that I'll use with somebody who's in that moment of resistance.
1:00:07
But generally all of the tools are to like to take all the force away to let them see that they're playing the game with themselves, not with me or like um it's like a Chinese thumb lock.
1:00:23
You have to like when someone's like this with you, you have to go the other way.
1:00:27
And so, so somebody who's absolutely won't do it, I'll like just literally take the other side of it.
1:00:34
I'll be like, "You're right. You shouldn't do it. What are you doing?
1:00:37
Like this is a horrible thing, you know, and and then they'll resist against the other side cuz they're they're just geared to resist.
1:00:43
So, I'll just take the other side and then they can resist me all they want and then it takes them to the same."
1:00:49
So there's like some hacks like that, but generally it's to see that there's a wisdom in what they're trying to maintain a sense of self that you didn't get to maintain as a kid. I'm with you. I want you to have that.
1:01:01
>> So what what was your aha moment when you decided, you know what, like I've done all these cool things in my life.
1:01:12
Now I think I can be a really effective coach.
1:01:19
What what what inspired that?
1:01:22
>> It didn't it was that never happened.
1:01:24
That that moment never happened.
1:01:24
What happened was I was a not very good investor. >> Okay.
1:01:31
So as a as a as a as a venture capitalist like the number one thing that you have to invest in is great entrepreneurs because everything pivots, everything changes, the markets shift, the technology changes.
1:01:43
So you need a great entrepreneur.
1:01:45
It's the number one thing.
1:01:47
There is no idea so good bad in management can't [ __ ] it up.
1:01:51
>> And so and so you really and and I unfortunately my psychology was I needed to be needed.
1:01:58
>> And so I was investing in in CEOs who needed me which is horrible.
1:02:02
What you really want is who don't need you at all >> at all >> at all.
1:02:09
And so and and who listen but don't need you.
1:02:14
that I would say the best CEOs are like I I'm listening to you but I don't need you and it and there's 10 more just like you, you know, it's like that's the like the and so um and so I made some investments that weren't so good and the only way out was to coach the CEOs.
1:02:34
Ah, >> and so and so I had I was looking at all these tools, business tools, marketing and sales that I that I saw were good, but could be even better if they were modes of self-discovery.
1:02:50
Meaning like if you market to somebody and you give them an epiphany, then they're going to buy from you.
1:02:58
>> If you sell somebody and you make them think about their business differently, they're going to buy from you.
1:03:01
So if I feel connected more deeply to myself or you after the end of a conversation, we're more likely to do business together.
1:03:10
So all these modes of self-discovery just increase the business tools.
1:03:14
They just made them more effective.
1:03:16
And so I started started teaching my CEOs that and and started coaching them.
1:03:22
And then they some of them became successful.
1:03:24
And all of a sudden there was more people interested in me coaching them than than I I and so I started a course like just a 12 person CEO course kind of thing.
1:03:33
And 3 months later there was another group of 14 people who wanted it.
1:03:38
And then at some point I was like this is just far more my calling.
1:03:43
this is then then being a venture capitalist.
1:03:46
And so that's how it that's how it moved. >> That's very cool.
1:03:51
Um because I I think a lot of roadblocks are self-imposed and and by that I mean like I love hearing you say, "Yeah, no, I I was a shitty investor and but I was really good at coaching these these CEOs."
1:04:10
Because one of the things that and by the way, you're right about that. you want to invest. I like ideas are great.
1:04:17
I love ideas, but you got to you got to love the person who you're putting the money on, >> right?
1:04:23
Because you I can't tell you the number of times when I've got the jockey wrong. I got the right race. I got the right horse.
1:04:30
I got the right track conditions, but I had the wrong [ __ ] jockey.
1:04:35
And it's just like >> you're just like, h when am I ever going to learn this?
1:04:40
to learn this? And the funniest thing is I it was the first thing I was told you know my mentor was like number one golden rule venture capital there is no idea so good bad management can't [ __ ] it up and it took me another 10 years to realize what that meant is like it is all about the entrepreneur is all about
1:05:00
and then maybe a little bit of the seauite after that but it's like really all about that that CEO >> totally agree and and as I listening to you though, uh, it it found what what I heard you say when you were talking about how you got into coaching and like they just were like continuing to line up at your door and you're like, "Wow, I'm good at this." I think that
1:05:21
I think that obviously a huge part of that is trust, right?
1:05:27
Because >> I I can't that's if there's no trust I don't work.
1:05:31
>> If there's no trust, you can't really I have I would take it as far as I am lucky enough in my life where I'm at right now that I will neither hire nor do business with somebody I do not trust.
1:05:43
Even I mean honestly it's like an iron rule of mine now. >> Yeah.
1:05:48
>> Because like life's too short. >> Yeah.
1:05:51
I highly recommend that to someone who's just getting started. >> Yeah.
1:05:55
Yeah, >> you will go a lot quicker, a lot farther if you only work with people you trust.
1:05:59
>> Let's keep on that for a minute.
1:05:59
Let's let's assume one of our listeners is just got getting started out.
1:06:03
They're bright, they're ambitious, that, you know, they have all these things.
1:06:06
What other advice would you give or things for them to contemplate um to to help them uh avoid a lot of the heartache? >> Yeah.
1:06:18
Any pattern you have in your business that lasts over three months is a personal internal pattern.
1:06:22
Any negative pattern you have in your business is an internal pattern.
1:06:26
And if you work on either the external or the internal, but preferably both at the same time, you have a opportunity to fix your business and to have a better relationship with yourself.
1:06:37
That would be one of the things that I would say. Um, yeah.
1:06:42
Only work with in every The one excuse you never want to make is I'm not working with somebody great because always work with great people. Yeah.
1:06:56
And there'll be a thousand reasons not to.
1:06:58
And I don't know any of them that have ever paid off for more than like a three or six month run, right?
1:07:05
like any kind of long-term relationship, if you're not with great people, the downside is so tremendous compared to the upside of going through whatever mayhem you have to go through to get that great person.
1:07:15
Um, and that great person, for whatever reason, it is not correlated with how much you have to pay them.
1:07:25
>> That I that it's so interesting that you say that. That is so true.
1:07:29
And it took me forever to figure that out.
1:07:35
>> Yeah, that's a weird one, isn't it?
1:07:35
Like >> it's really weird.
1:07:38
>> Yeah, if you pay a lot, there's maybe a higher chance that you can find greatness, >> but but greatness doesn't have to be a doesn't have to be a >> whole correlation causation thing.
1:07:52
There there are people who the incentive structure like Charlie Mer always banged on about that and he was right. >> Yeah.
1:08:02
>> You know if you if you if you really want to understand something in business or in it like in life >> look at the incentives that are in place and one of the things that you just pointed out it's not always money.
1:08:14
As a matter of fact it very rarely >> rarely is money. Yep.
1:08:22
>> Like >> I was just talking to a guy who runs a hedge fund that's growing and he said, "One of the things about my business is that everybody has the [ __ ] you number that when they make it, they're going to leave.
1:08:32
And so retaining talent is a challenge."
1:08:34
And I said, "I absolutely disagree with you.
1:08:38
If you if your people come to your hedge fund and they feel like they're better people at the end of the year, they'll stay that they're incent if if the only way that that's true is if their incentive for being there is only money.
1:08:54
>> And so 100% true >> and and you know you can have those like I always point out to people that compounding works both ways, right?
1:09:04
>> Everyone wants to talk about compounding.
1:09:06
>> I've never thought about so good.
1:09:08
But you can negatively compound too.
1:09:12
>> Oh my gosh, that's so >> You got to think about that side of the equation.
1:09:15
>> Oh yeah, that's so good.
1:09:17
>> Because what you said to your hedge fund manager is absolutely true.
1:09:19
When I when I figured that out and and would hire people and I still do it at the company today, I would say, "Listen, it'd be great if you like if this turns out to be your your bag and and you're with us forever, but what what I want from you is if you ever do leave here, you leave here in in in a frame of mind that you didn't have when you joined here.
1:09:48
By that I mean that you learned something here, some insight about yourself or about what drives you or whatever it happens to be. >> But you're so right.
1:09:57
If they're if they're about the number, that's why I those things drive me crazy because they're all over social media, right?
1:10:06
What's your [ __ ] you number?
1:10:06
What's or even what's the number?
1:10:08
And I hate I hate hate hate that way of thinking because like there is no number >> in my at least not for me.
1:10:17
Like >> I can't what I'm going to golf.
1:10:22
>> My wife would kill me.
1:10:26
>> I don't have a number.
1:10:26
I just have the objective of not being killed by my wife. >> There you go. >> Yeah.
1:10:37
I really hate that I'm still doing this, but my wife would kill me otherwise. >> Right. Otherwise. >> Yeah. It's Yeah. That Yeah.
1:10:46
I mean, there's enough studies that show that autonomy is more important than money.
1:10:54
That recognition is more important than money.
1:10:58
I think selfdevelopment is more important than money for people. I Yeah. I I noticed that. Yeah.
1:11:06
I mean, our business is not our business is not super lucrative.
1:11:12
It's not one of the my personal business is very lucrative, but the course business and all that that we do, it's it makes good money.
1:11:18
We get to support people and we get to pay them a good wage, but it's not hedge fund or AI world money.
1:11:24
And everybody who works for us is passionate.
1:11:28
I mean, we just had our quarterly review companywide h all hands and I every single person was in tears at some point during that call >> and people are deeply grateful that they get to do this work in the world and they get to support what we do.
1:11:43
It's you know I think everybody if they didn't have to worry about money and then there are actually a couple people who don't have to worry about money who dedicate to this. Yeah.
1:11:54
So I it doesn't I think money is way money is the surrogate for what we really want. >> Could not agree more.
1:12:01
Money is an information system plain and simple.
1:12:05
>> That's a good way to say that.
1:12:07
>> And and like the the it's people always get the quote wrong, right?
1:12:10
They always say the you know uh money is the root of all evil. That's not the quote.
1:12:14
The quote is the love of money is the root of all evil, >> right?
1:12:21
Like and and I just see it so often times.
1:12:23
But like when I was still in asset management, I'll tell you when I got to know my clients, the most successful people, I can count on both hands the number of those clients who told me they did it because they wanted the money. >> Yeah.
1:12:40
>> Everyone else it was no, I was just I was obsessed by this.
1:12:43
I was passionate about this.
1:12:45
Like it had very little to do with money.
1:12:49
I I even the people who say that they were doing it for the money, my experience is they weren't they were doing it to win. Yeah.
1:12:56
>> Like they were just passionate about winning and money was how they kept score. >> Yeah.
1:13:00
>> My experience is that you know the way I tell the story is that I had a girlfriend in college and she was good tennis player and the coach set one of those baskets that you pick up the balls with.
1:13:12
said, "Serve and hit it."
1:13:12
And she serve she hit it like maybe two out of five times.
1:13:16
And then he took the basket away, put a quarter down in the middle of where the basket was and said, "Serve and hit it."
1:13:21
And she didn't hit the quarter once.
1:13:23
And he said, "Yeah, but you would have hit the basket every time." >> That's great.
1:13:30
>> And and money is the basket.
1:13:34
The quarter is the passion, the mission, the wanting to win, the beating the competition, whatever it is that drives you.
1:13:40
Money is always if you're aiming for money, you're not going to hit it very often.
1:13:47
>> You you mentioned uh your your quarterly uh meeting with with all of your teammates. >> Yeah.
1:13:53
>> Does it ever get weird like when when you're dealing with people who are like looking at every micro expression you might make, >> you know?
1:14:04
So the number one thing that we teach, so if if we have a it's not on our website, but if somebody's been working with us for a while and they want to coach, we have a we have a way that they can do that. We call old students.
1:14:17
And the number one rule in old students is that it is your job to get back to unconditional love.
1:14:26
>> And so that the the work isn't about me being able to read micro expressions.
1:14:31
The work is about me being able to love you unconditionally.
1:14:35
And so if if the micro expressions are for manipulation or to read you or anything like that and we never teach how to do that that that comes from knowing yourself if you you you can get it other ways.
1:14:49
You can train yourself into it, right?
1:14:50
Or you can have an alcoholic father and and that helps to train you in it because you need to know exactly what's going on with that person.
1:14:58
>> Buddhist monks also happen to be really great with microp expressions because they've just done the inner work, right?
1:15:03
So if you do the inner work that comes out.
1:15:07
So we don't ever teach that.
1:15:07
We teach everything as inner work.
1:15:13
>> And the inner work is how do I get back to unconditional love?
1:15:17
>> I maybe I have to go get angry. Maybe I have to get sad.
1:15:18
Maybe I have to like take apart my thoughts.
1:15:21
Maybe I have to draw a boundary.
1:15:22
Maybe I have to There's maybe a thousand things.
1:15:24
But my job is if I am working with you as a client is to show up in unconditional love.
1:15:33
>> That's a really interesting observation about Buddhist monks.
1:15:35
I've been to a lot of monasteries, Buddhist monasteries. >> Yeah.
1:15:39
And the reason I've been to a lot of them is because when I was 27 and visiting Hawaii with my wife, we walked into a Buddhist monastery.
1:15:47
And I [ __ ] you not, like my entire the vibe, the energy of the place was literally very different.
1:16:01
>> Like literally, I just relaxed >> and I'm like, "Okay, this is pretty cool.
1:16:07
I want to know more about that.
1:16:10
>> And what this for me what what I found so cool though >> was like just interacting with the monks. We're in Bhutan. Same thing.
1:16:19
Interacting with the monks.
1:16:19
It's just like the most energizing experience. At least for me. >> Yeah.
1:16:25
>> Because like they're always laughing about everything and and and it's just such a wonderful experience.
1:16:33
>> It's the same in our business. We laugh in a meeting.
1:16:36
There's got to be like in an hour meeting there's got to be at least 10 to 15 minutes of laughter.
1:16:39
H we we could we get along because that exactly right you know >> it I if I don't do buttoned up well and >> yeah neither do I >> that lost me a lot of clients to be fair when I was on Wall Street because it's just like oh come on man and and it and it gets back to money it seems Seems to me money is the last taboo, right?
1:17:14
People will tell you all about their sex life and they'll everything else.
1:17:18
>> I have exactly that line.
1:17:18
I money is the is the biggest taboo in our society because they'll tell you how they have sex, but they will not tell you about their credit card debt. >> Yeah.
1:17:27
And I boy did I learn that when we still took uh individual clients.
1:17:30
We moved to uh institutional um and you know registered investment advisors.
1:17:37
But in the early days of my first company, we took directly um high netw worth individuals and literally I after five years of doing that I figured out oh [ __ ] my real job here is to be a psychiatrist and psychologist.
1:17:54
>> Oh yeah >> that I won't work with clients like that.
1:17:58
Meaning every client that I work with has to have a project that they're actively trying to make happen in the world. Mhm.
1:18:07
>> So I won't work for you know I get regularly I get calls from you know second generation wealth that are you know summering insparians. >> Yeah.
1:18:18
Or or I mean maybe they don't have a burning fe.
1:18:22
They don't have something that will drive them through the discomfort.
1:18:29
See, I have a thesis about that.
1:18:29
And and my thesis about that is that a lot of those kids, their source of wealth is an irrevocable trust >> and managed by others.
1:18:41
And I think the message that that is sending that child, >> yes, >> from the parents is I don't trust you.
1:18:48
I don't trust that you will make good choices.
1:18:54
So, a lot of that I tease, but there's a serious issue there.
1:18:58
And that serious issue is that person basically the message they're getting from their parents is we value the money more than we value you.
1:19:11
>> I think that is one of like several components to it. Yeah. Control. Oh, yeah.
1:19:16
Obviously, >> I think there's a control issue. I agree.
1:19:19
Some of the best I've ever seen I' so I've gotten to spend time with multi-generational wealth.
1:19:23
One of the best I've ever seen is you get into the you get to you get the trust and you get your basically a relatively good standard of living but if you start a business from scratch that got over x millions of dollars >> then you got to control the trust. >> Yeah.
1:19:46
So there was an actual avenue to controlling the trust. >> Yeah.
1:19:52
>> And then the other thing that I've seen work really well, and there's a couple, this is mo mostly in Europe, but there's a couple uh families in America that I've seen do it where when the kid hits like 25, 27 years old, they follow the eldest of the business, family business, for two years.
1:20:09
They don't talk during any meetings, but there's always 30 minutes set aside after the meeting to discuss what happened.
1:20:17
So, they're actually training them on the part of the business that they're going to be having, not that, you know, they're training them how to be a great top of a business person, which is different than different avenues in the business.
1:20:29
And then then the next two years they're with the next group of levels in the family and then the next two years and then they start going the other way on it. Does that make sense? meaning that >> Yeah. No, totally.
1:20:43
>> And it's and it's brilliant.
1:20:43
I think it's a really brilliant way to keep a family business alive and healthy. >> Yeah.
1:20:49
I had a different experience.
1:20:49
Um my uncles who were running uh the oil company after my grandfather died. >> Yeah.
1:20:59
>> Uh boy, they really wanted me to work for the family business.
1:21:02
And and and I loved my uncle, the the guy who was the CEO.
1:21:07
Um and uh but it took me a long time to tell him, you know, Uncle John, I just am not an oil guy.
1:21:16
>> I this whole stock market thing I just find absolutely fascinating because it kind of like it's the ultimate puzzle to me.
1:21:24
>> And so one of the things that I did >> uh was I never encouraged any of my kids to want to be in what I did.
1:21:30
Now, my son ended up >> asking for an internship, but like literally I made it really hard on him.
1:21:40
And by that I mean I was like, "Okay, you can work for us, but you have a sell by date and you're not working for me.
1:21:48
You're going to work for this guy over here." Yeah.
1:21:51
>> And what was interesting about what happened was literally I don't know 6 weeks into it, one of the head of my trading who my son was doing a lot of work with came into my office and he's like, um, you know, I think he's the best intern we got here.
1:22:05
He goes, I don't know if it's a genetic thing or whatever it is, but like you you got to pay him because we always paid all of our interns, but I told my son, no, I'm not paying you. >> Right.
1:22:16
and and so but it was really cool because >> he ended up being a big part of my business that we ultimately sold.
1:22:24
But it was all because that was what he clearly was good at and really wanted to do, etc.
1:22:33
But it was the advocacy of the people who he worked for that ultimately they they they literally came into my office.
1:22:42
The president of the company, the head of trading and the head of research came in and they're like, >> "You said he had a sell by date. No [ __ ] way. We got to hire him." >> Right. Gotcha. Yeah. >> Perfect. >> Okay. Yeah. That's the way.
1:22:54
The the one thing I will say about the families where they teach, the ones that I've seen, they're they're more like conglomerates, meaning >> Yeah.
1:23:02
They they're not in a business, they're in multiple businesses. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:23:07
Uh it's Yeah, it's it's tricky.
1:23:11
Um because it it I I I tended I I I had my radical phase where it was kind of like, you know, I'm I'm not going to ever like encourage my kids to be follow my passions because they have they're going to have hopefully if I've done my job, they're going to have their own passions, right? >> Yeah.
1:23:33
>> And and and it shouldn't even put it that way. Done my job.
1:23:34
Like basically if if I let them evolve as human beings like when when when we had our first child, my son, we were 24 and my wife and I talked a lot about like what do like how do we want to raise our children?
1:23:50
And and kind of the line that we came up with that really stuck in both of our heads was we want to raise great adults.
1:23:59
And if you want to raise great adults, guess what you can't do?
1:24:01
You can't say because I said so, because I'm big and you're little, because you live in my house, my rules, right?
1:24:07
You you have to engage with them and be like, "Okay, so you want that.
1:24:14
Why why do you want that?
1:24:17
>> What What do you hope to achieve from that?"
1:24:19
>> And and it just worked better for us.
1:24:19
So I I think there's lots of like I I I used to be like um the guy in Poofrock's um the love song of J Alfred Pufrock TS Elliott I will come back I shall tell you I will convince you all and then the the other his respondent says that isn't what I meant at all at all. >> Exactly. That's right. >> So >> yeah. Yeah.
1:24:47
I I I think my number one I feel like the number one job of a parent is to make them to allow them to know that they're unconditionally loved.
1:24:56
And then the second job I've experienced is to teach them how to listen to themselves. >> I love that.
1:25:04
>> I don't want I don't want kids who listen to me.
1:25:05
I want kids who listen to themselves. >> Yeah.
1:25:08
And that was another thing, you know, when you have that kind of desire.
1:25:13
It sounds like we have similar uh we had similar goals.
1:25:15
Um like my kids used to come to me as their own personal Google.
1:25:22
Um I I love a lot and and I'm if I read something I can pretty much retain it.
1:25:28
>> Um but rather than tell them I just we had a huge library and I just pointed at it and said look it up in there.
1:25:36
>> And and what's interesting they really were unhappy with me when they were children and I did that to them.
1:25:39
But all three of my kids all point to that as saying, "Wow, thank you for doing that."
1:25:47
>> Because in the course of looking up that Taland was the French representative at the Congress of uh Vienna that ended the Napoleonic Wars, they learned of all this other cool stuff, >> right?
1:25:59
>> And and and I and I wonder what do you think about that?
1:26:02
It's a little off coaching, but like one of the things that I thought was cool about like books and encyclopedias and stuff is you had to wade through a lot of different stuff to get what you were looking for.
1:26:14
Now in AI, you can just go this is what I want. Give it to me.
1:26:20
>> Do you think that is is there a way to do that in our era? >> Yeah.
1:26:25
So, it's it's an interesting that's a that's a really great question that I think there's two listening to yourselves part.
1:26:32
yourselves part. One part is to actually be sensitive to like your whole body system and I think that that and then there's also the wandering like the thing that you learn by wandering and it's how important wandering is and
1:26:49
I think the tool of AI can help with both and can hurt with both and just like the tool of social media or the tool of television or the tool of radio they can educate you they can expand your brain And they can they can decrease your capacity. And it's really
1:27:06
And it's really about how we use them.
1:27:09
And and and eventually everybody figures out a way to use any kind of communication technology to be addictive. >> Yeah.
1:27:25
>> So somebody will absolutely figure out how to make an addictive AI.
1:27:30
AI I think has the first chance of making so addiction basically runs off of dopamine.
1:27:40
>> Most modern addiction runs off of dopamine.
1:27:43
I think that AI has a chance to start working on serotonin and and oxytocin and like oh wait sorry did I did I do that one wrong? Is it oxytocin? Yeah, oxytocin.
1:27:56
that um I think that there's ways that we can interact.
1:28:00
I think that if a lot of people had a chance to hang out in that Buddhist monastery a lot, they would.
1:28:07
And I think they would pick that over People magazine.
1:28:09
And so I think there's a way that AI that's talking to hundreds of millions of people a day now can speak to them potentially.
1:28:19
there's a way that potentially that could speak to them the way the Daly Lama would speak to them or the way a great coach would or the way a um somebody who's who's spent a lot of time developing their consciousness would. >> Amen.
1:28:35
>> And so I think that we have that ability and I think that that has the capacity to be more compelling than the addictive version of AI that is doubtlessly going to be coming.
1:28:47
100% on that same page with you.
1:28:47
I think that there's a lot of reasons for it, but like the military guys say like it's dual use.
1:28:55
A lot of things are dual use technologies, right? Yeah.
1:29:00
>> You you can to be the geeky AI uh guy for a moment.
1:29:04
You can maximize the objective function for revenue or you can maximize the objective function for human flourishing.
1:29:13
And and guess what's going to happen, right? both are going to exist.
1:29:18
>> Yeah, I I do believe that there this may be the first technology where the the financial winner is the one that pushes flourishing.
1:29:26
I I don't think there was a chance to do that for television or radio or internet or social media because there wasn't the resp you couldn't control the response to to that you can now.
1:29:46
>> So there I think there's a chance there's a better business case.
1:29:49
>> Our entire company OAC Ventures is a bet on that point of view. >> We That's great.
1:29:56
We we definitely agree with you.
1:29:59
>> We think that the there is for the first time >> we have a technology that you you what's the old joke about missionaries?
1:30:07
They went to do good but did well.
1:30:12
>> I think that I think that this now presents an a business model that has never existed in the past. >> Yeah. >> Um and I 100% agree.
1:30:21
It can it now I think you're absolutely right saying that most people are going to use it to addict people to it >> but I think you can do well and do good at the same time >> with the whole serotonin model. >> Yeah, I I do.
1:30:39
Yeah, I think that that might actually be more >> compelling than the addictive model. We'll see.
1:30:47
>> Because what I notice is that like when people feel connected, >> like if you just look at this is what I'd say.
1:30:55
>> You know the rat rat park experiments, right?
1:30:58
So put a rat by themselves, they'll become addicted.
1:31:02
>> Put a rat in a rat park where they feel connected, where they feel like their needs are met.
1:31:06
Then they're going to stay in the rat park and they're not going to be addicted.
1:31:09
We the the game is to build the rat park.
1:31:14
build the thing that actually creates the serotonin and the oxytocin and the and the connection through through through AI and then that hopefully will be more compelling >> completely.
1:31:28
Well, I'm a lot I have a lot of bets hoping that you're right. >> Great. Yeah.
1:31:33
Thank you for doing that.
1:31:36
>> Um I can't believe but we've already been talking with each other for an hour and a half here.
1:31:41
I find that when time slips away, I'm really grooving with ever who I'm talking to.
1:31:46
But now my producers are, they always say, "Jim, god damn it.
1:31:50
When you like talking to somebody like we're going to put somebody in the room with you who pulls you away, >> pull you out."
1:31:59
>> But, uh, this has been absolutely delightful, Joe.
1:32:01
Um, >> what a pleasure pleasure to be with you.
1:32:04
>> And and for me, we we we have our our traditional final question here.
1:32:08
At least I think it's fun.
1:32:10
Uh, we're going to make you the emperor of the world, but you can't kill anyone >> and you can't put anyone in a re-education camp.
1:32:19
You might be able to put them in that rat park, but no re-education camps.
1:32:25
>> But what we are going to do is we're going to hand you a magic microphone >> and you can say two things into it that will incept the entire 8 whatever two billion people on Earth for whenever their next morning is.
1:32:38
They're going to wake up and they're going to say, "I just had these two great flashes of insight and unlike all the other times, I'm going to actually act on both of these things."
1:32:49
What are you going to accept in the world's population?
1:32:54
The first one is beneath what you think you are, you are inherently good. >> I love that.
1:33:05
uh to explain that one a bit.
1:33:05
I think it's if when people recognize that they behave in just like really beautiful ways if they really once they really see that.
1:33:18
Um and then the second thing would be um incept the whole world. Um, I love my emotions. >> That's great. Wow.
1:33:40
I gonna have to even think about that one for a while. But I like it.
1:33:44
>> If everybody woke up, we're like, "Ah, my emotions are awesome."
1:33:49
>> That would change the world really, really quickly. >> It would. I think you're right. I think you're right.
1:33:54
Uh, Joe, uh, people can find you in your courses on YouTube.
1:33:56
The best way is to uh sign up for the mailing list on arofaccomplishment. com.
1:34:04
Um because that's going to tell you all the podcasts and the YouTube and the X and all the way there.
1:34:08
We have now so many ways to get involved so that we have different ways for people.
1:34:12
We have free hour and a half courses so they can taste it.
1:34:16
We have smaller courses, bigger courses.
1:34:19
We have so much to offer, multiple newsletters, podcasts, YouTube channels.
1:34:25
So, the best way is just sign up for the sign up for the mailing list on the homepage and then you'll get informed of all the other stuff and you get to pick what works for you. >> Fantastic.
1:34:37
Joe, thank you so much for coming on.
1:34:39
This has been a blast for me.
1:34:41
U really really great to to meet you and chat.
1:34:45
>> So good to be with you as well. >> Thanks. >> Awesome. Bye-bye. >> Bye.