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I don't give a about my net worth.
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So, many people tell me, "I've got this great idea, but I don't want to hear about but." Like, let's go for it.
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Part of being an entrepreneur is to have the courage to fail.
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If you're afraid to fail, you ain't going to do With the global sports company Fanatics, you heard of it? Yeah, you have.
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Founder and CEO Michael Rubin. Welcome back, sir.
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I've seen death in its eyes.
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I've almost gone bankrupt multiple times.
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There are so many things that I should not have succeeded at, but I have because I won't quit.
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If you set goals that are easy to accomplish, then you're actually saying you want to fail.
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The best-selling author and host The number one health and wellness podcast with Jay Shetty.
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I want to ask you, Michael, what was you know, you're such a successful business person.
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What was your first ever job that you ever had in life?
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So, for me, I think a lot of people know the story.
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I was a terrible student.
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You know, barely made it out of high school, went to college for less than a semester.
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Um, as bad as a student as I was, I was honestly a worse athlete.
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Like, I was just I wasn't coordinated. I wasn't a good athlete.
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The one thing I was always good at was working.
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Like, I loved business from the time I was a kid.
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So, everything I remember about being young was working.
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So, my first job was that I can remember is probably 8 years old.
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I probably had like five different side hustles.
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I mean, I was selling trading cards.
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You know, by the way, not to my friends, but to my friends' parents cuz they had the money.
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I was when it would snow in Philadelphia where I grew up, I would get five kids to do the snow shoveling, and I would go door-to-door and actually sell the snow shoveling.
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I was selling vegetable seeds door-to-door.
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I was making stationary on the Apple II Plus and selling it.
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I mean, I was just like I was a real entrepreneur.
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Like, I it's what I was good at. It's what I liked doing.
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And so, I had so So different jobs as an 8-year-old, but I mean, that's like when people say, you know, "How long you've been at it?" It's crazy. 43 years.
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I've been doing this since I've been 8 years old. Wow.
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And when you were doing that, was there any inspiration?
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Was it just you wanted money?
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What did you want to buy?
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What were you doing with that?
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Like, what what excited you about it?
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I don't think for me, even at 8 years old, it was ever about money or wanting to buy things.
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I think it was always about doing what you're good at.
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And for me, uh knowing that I wasn't a good Like, I had a lot of learning challenges.
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I mean, as a kid, like, I had every, you know, person to try to help me with all the things I sucked at, whether it was athletically or, you know, it was just like, I just I wasn't good at sports.
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I wasn't good at school, but business is what I was good at.
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So, I just always gravitate to that.
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I think that's a good thing.
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Like, you should always figure out how to do things that you love.
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You should figure out how to do things that you're good at and kind of double down on that.
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So, that's always been my whole life.
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How did you know that at 8?
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Because I feel like most 8-year-olds today are obviously playing video games.
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Back then, they were probably watching TV.
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Maybe they were out riding a bike.
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Like, how did you know that you were good at this?
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And I think it's something for me I was born with.
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Like, I was born with that entrepreneurial hustle.
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I think I came out of the womb like just, you know, wanting to be an entrepreneur.
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Like, just loving the hustle.
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And you know, to me, you know, I've been at this a long time.
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I work harder than I've ever work worked today. I love it. It's an honor to do it. It's fun. It's an opportunity. Like, I'm never tired. I'm never worn out.
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Like, I'm just always I just want to go. Yeah. Can it be learned?
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Can you teach people to hustle and grind and develop that mindset or is it born with as you are?
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So, I think I was definitely born with it.
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That said, I do think, you know, for me, the way I learn is by being a sponge from people.
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So, I'm always picking things up from different people.
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Like, if you just look at the diversity of people I have around me, like, I'm always taking so much learnings from them to, you know, be better in what I do.
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And I try to give those back.
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So, yeah, I think you can definitely learn a lot of this stuff.
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You just, you know, find people you respect.
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Find people that you admire.
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Find people that you want to be like.
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And then, you know, take the good from them.
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And by the way, figure out what they do that you don't like and and ignore that.
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Like, I see good and bad in each person.
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I try got take the good and learn from the bad. And same with me.
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I got lots of bad habits. I mean Like I'm myself. That's right. Yeah. That's all I ask for. That's all I ask for.
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There is no judgment here.
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There's no It's a safe space.
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I just want people to be their authentic selves.
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And so so please continue to be yourself.
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And uh What's So what I love that idea of learning from people, being a human sponge.
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What's the most recent or most memorable thing you think you took away from someone, a conversation, a moment, uh something you read or heard or learned?
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Was there anything that kind of stuck with you? Yeah, for sure.
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I mean um Look, I'm in LA for the week.
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I'm doing six to 10 meetings a day in my house and you know, two of the people I met with in the last two days have been through some real challenges.
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And just watching the challenges that they've been through, I'm like, okay, I need to be that much more careful about how I conduct myself in everything that I do.
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So to me, I'm always taking learnings away from people.
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I I think if you're not, like, you know, you have no chance of like, you know, getting better at what you do.
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I mean, it's like like life is no different than sports.
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You just got to keep getting better at your sport.
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And so to me, I keep working everything I do.
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Yeah, what what do you think?
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Obviously now, like, when you started 43 years ago at 8 years old entrepreneurship wasn't as touted as this incredible option.
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It was It was actually weird.
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Like, to be clear, like, I was a nerd at like like that I loved business.
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Like, entrepreneurialism became cool really around technology.
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Like, I I don't think it became cool till almost that the from my perspective, I think it was the really the the birth of the dot-com era, you know, kind of late '90s is when entrepreneurialism became cool.
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I think before that it was kind of nerdy and weird.
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So I was definitely born before it all.
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Yeah, and I'd say even after the financial crisis in like 2007-8, like, that recession, which is because I grew up in the era where we still aspired to be investment bankers or consultants.
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So when I was at college or when I was growing up, that was seen if you were into business my goal was to go into that world because that's what I aspired for.
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Whereas I think the generation after me and the one after me, they were like, I'm not going to go work for someone.
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I want to build something on my own. I think that's amazing.
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Like, for me, I love One of the things that I'm fortunate to do is really, I think in a lot of ways, you know, encourage entrepreneurialism.
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And, you know, one of our biggest businesses, the collectibles business, which is trading cards and memorabilia, and that's all about entrepreneurs.
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There's so many entrepreneurs in that business.
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It's probably the business in a lot of ways that I I actually relate to all three of our businesses, but it's the business that's maybe the most relatable for me because I grew up selling trading cards as an 8-year-old, but also it's all about entrepreneurialism.
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Talk to me through that business because so I remember so back in London, obviously, where I grew up, I collected football stickers, right? Soccer stickers.
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So, that's what we'd have.
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We'd have the big You'd have the spread with all the Premier League clubs, and you'd collect the little stickers, and that was a big part of collectibles.
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How is that industry evolved as technology's grown?
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Or has it stayed the same?
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Are people still collecting cards and like Top Trumps and things like that?
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Yeah, well, I'll say we got into the business about 3 years ago in a really significant way.
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And today, we own Topps, which is the, you know, kind of preeminent brand in trading cards.
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I'd say that, you know, until our arrival in the industry, a little less than 3 years ago, I'd say there hadn't been, you know, a tremendous amount of innovation.
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There hadn't been a tremendous amount of marketing.
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You know, we kind of looked at the business and wow, like this is such an incredible collector base, such an incredible fan base, yet it hasn't changed for like decades here.
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And you go to a, you know, the big trading card show where there's more than 100,000 people that come to Chicago this past summer, it's called the National Trading Card Show.
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Yet, it looks like something from 20, 30, 40 years ago.
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So, for us, that was just That just meant an opportunity.
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Man, if you you actually make innovative products, you actually really market these products, you build a better consumer experience, and bring people forward into 2023, like what an opportunity.
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So, for me, like I We do that in all of our business.
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Like, I love Like, we love finding great opportunities, big challenges, and kind of being unrelenting about going after them.
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Yeah, how has that changed?
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How has that practically changed?
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Like, are people still buying cards and trading and cards are the biggest part of business.
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It's in a lot of ways very similar to art, but I can tell you like just as one quick example, this year, you know, our team came in and actually the CEO of our business, Mike Mahan, said, "Hey, I got a great idea.
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Every time a player debuts for the first time, I want to put a patch on their jersey, and then as soon as they get done the game, I want to put that patch off and put it in a one-on-one trading card."
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So, you have the card from the from the first So, think about for for us, you know, maybe I grew up in the in the Michael Jordan era.
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Had I had, you know, Michael Jordan or yeah, if I had Michael Jordan or Kobe's first one-on-one cards, yeah, that could be the the most valuable keepsake that I could ever have.
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And so, you know, that innovation, like for us it was really simple, like, yeah, why would you not want to put a patch on someone's jersey, stick it into a card, and make this a one-on-one card?
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But, no one did that until we created it.
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And by the way, it's already live.
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We came up with the idea this past December.
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It was in It was live in in April with with all baseball players.
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It's going to be three to 400 baseball players debut this year, you know, with this debut patch that we put into a one-on-one card.
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So, that's just like one of dozens of examples of innovations because you have to be aggressive.
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We like we have to be great entrepreneurs.
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We have to push in whatever we do.
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Yeah, no, what I love about that though for everyone who's listening is I think we're stuck in this world now that believes that all innovation has to be digital or technological or virtual or some sort of, you know, AI.
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Whereas this is like the most tangible physical change, but it's still so valuable because it's what people want.
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Look, we're in three business there.
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Our first business where we started is what we call Fanatics Commerce.
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That's our merchandise business.
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We own Lids, the hat retailer. We own Mitchell & Ness.
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Uh we own Fanatics, which operates, you know, obviously all of the different league, you know, the NFL shop, the NBA store.
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And we sell, you know, more than $6 billion of mostly fan apparel and headwear, okay?
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But but um you know, you know, more than 100 million units of merchandise a year.
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That's a very physical business, okay?
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But, AI is helping us to do things more effectively.
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In the collectibles business, AI is going to help us to be more effective.
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And then our third business is the online sports betting and iGaming business.
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So, you know, for me, we still do a lot of physical things, but there's so many things in the digital world that help us to be better.
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Yeah, no, but I love that collaboration and thinking about it that way because sometimes the greatest value to someone is a physical change but you're learning that through the AI.
9:41
I still want to wear my Kobe jersey. Yeah, exactly exactly. I want my Braun card.
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Yeah, that's the same thing.
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I'm still buying I support Manchester United.
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That's that's my soccer team and I'm still buying you know, soccer jerseys every single year. You know.
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that cuz that's a Fanatics side.
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That's the Fanatics store.
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even though we absolutely even though we absolutely suck right now but it's you know.
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But that's what being a sports fan is about.
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Sometimes you got to have the great years and you get you get those championships and other times you got to suck and you got to stay with your team.
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You got to you got to feel feel the pain. real fan now.
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I grew up as a glory hunter because we just won everything and now I'm going through real fandom of 10 years. you now.
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We're going to see what you're made of.
10:14
Are you really committed to Man United here?
10:16
Yeah, that's that's I'm being tested right now.
10:18
I'm being tested but we were talking about people not being entrepreneurship not being taught at when you started.
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When you look at it today, now it's become the cool, sexy, interesting, fascinating thing for people to want to try.
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It's not necessarily things people are good at like you said you were.
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It's not necessarily a skill that we honor or give it the the kudos that it deserves.
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What are the mistakes people are making when they think about being an entrepreneur today?
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Well, first of all, entrepreneurism isn't for everybody but if you think it's for yourself, you better go out there and try it and put your best foot forward.
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You know, for me look, the biggest mistakes I see people make in building a business are kind of a couple common themes.
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One is first you have like are you even going to take the at bat?
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So many people tell me I've got this great idea but like I don't want to hear about but like let's go for it.
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Let's see if you have an idea you want to do something.
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You know, I love the story you were just telling me before we went on here that you came over here and you know, you worked one place for six months and you're like I want to go out and do this. You went out and did it.
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Like part of being an entrepreneur is to have the courage to fail.
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Like you just have to go out there and try.
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And by the way, when you fail which many times you will, you're going to learn from that failure.
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You're going to grow from that failure.
11:26
You think the best you talked about Kobe being your favorite you know, athlete. Well, guess what?
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How many times did he fail and then he got better and he pushed through it and so that's what being an entrepreneur is.
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So from my perspective, it's really all about first and foremost, if you have something you want to do, if you believe in it, go for it.
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Don't worry about whether you succeed or not.
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Go out and take the swing and if guess what?
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If you strike out, if you fail, just go back again and I know some people are going to say, oh well, he's really successful now so it's easy to say.
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But I got to tell you something, I like I've seen death in its eyes, you know, I've almost gone bankrupt multiple times.
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You know, I've had epic failures and every one of those led me to be better in what I do.
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So that's my first thing.
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Second thing I'd say is you need great people around you to succeed.
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Like whether it's great people you're learning from that you want to be a sponge from, whether it's you build a great team to do what you do.
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Like I know for Fanatics we have 18,000 people that get up and go to bed obsessed with how do we improve the fan experience each day, but like I collect and work with the best people on the planet.
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Like if you don't work with great people, you will fail.
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Like you can't win a championship if you don't have great talent, but that talent also works needs to work together.
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And then the last thing and this will sound corny, but like have fun in what you do. Like I love what I do.
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I have the greatest, you know, job on the planet.
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I get to wake up, you know, work 18 hours a day, go to bed thinking about, you know, what's next.
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I dream about my work nearly every day.
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Like I'm having work dreams all the time cuz I'm obsessed with what I'm doing. It's like it's it's fun.
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It's like I should pinch myself.
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It's so awesome what I get to do. Yeah, absolutely.
12:50
No, I love hearing that and I think, you know, what's fascinating to me as well with being an entrepreneur, you know, my story was very different to finding my way into entrepreneurship.
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I grew up thinking I had job cuz that's how I was raised by good Indian immigrant parents who made me academically astute and so I was a straight A student, did first class at uni.
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Like I was always good at that.
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And then I got into a job afterwards after my own detour.
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And when I finally got into a job, I was just like this doesn't feel right.
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Like this doesn't feel like this is going to use my skills to the best of my ability.
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This doesn't feel like I'm going to propel and do well and become my best version of myself.
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It wasn't about money or what I thought I could win at.
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It was I just don't feel this is going to complete me or make me feel like I'm winning in the way that I can.
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Listen, the most important thing is enjoying what you do every day.
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I'm going to tell you something.
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I know a lot of people that have been really successful financially and they're miserable. You know what?
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They don't love what they do every day. They're not happy.
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Like for me, I don't think about financial success.
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I think about like just loving what I'm doing now.
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Financial success can tell you are you winning or losing? That's your report card.
13:57
That's the scoreboard, right?
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Good financial results means you're winning.
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Bad financial results means you're not winning in the current moment.
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But for me, like I just want to love what I do every day.
14:05
I I I couldn't agree with you more.
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I want to wake up and do what I love every day, which is why I do this because I get to sit down with fascinating people, pick people's minds behind we each learn from each other. Absolutely. Absolutely.
14:16
the way, I guarantee I'll learn I'll leave here today having picked up some things from you and you'll leave from here Oh, I'm definitely going to learn. That's the way it works.
14:22
That's the way like we should all be students of each other. Yeah, absolutely.
14:24
Who's Who's the randomest person you've learned from?
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I wonder like who's the most curious, random, intriguing person that we wouldn't expect for you to learn from?
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Like not like a business mogul or a you know, someone like that, but someone you're like, you know what?
14:36
That person I didn't expect to learn from them, but I did.
14:38
Is there someone like that comes to mind?
14:40
I could give you a thousand examples.
14:42
I mean, I could tell you when I used to be part of the ownership group of the Philadelphia Sixers, I'd walk through the arena and I would ask lots of arena workers, "What's going on here today?
14:51
You know, what's working? What's not working?"
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Like you know, you picked up things from everybody.
14:55
I could I could walk through the street, look at what someone's wearing and say, "Hey, where'd you buy that?
15:00
Is that a good Do Do you like that? Do you not like that?"
15:03
Like I'm always asking questions.
15:03
So, you know, for me, I I mean, that's pretty random for you to just walk up in the street and ask somebody, you know, "Where'd you buy that? Why'd you buy it? Do you love that?
15:12
What do So, I'm always picking things up.
15:14
I'm watching the way trends are changing with people.
15:15
I'm Probably the most unique thing about me is the diversity of friends that I have and I'm learning from the people around me every single day.
15:22
Yeah, I think that's the only way you understand the pulse of human behavior, right?
15:25
It's like asking questions, watching patterns.
15:29
I think pattern watching is is an ability, whether it's an algorithm, whether it's the stock market, whether it's you know, crypto, whatever it is for people, watching patterns is such an unbelievable skill.
15:39
Would you say that's a skill that you've honed and developed and built?
15:42
Well, I think it's a really important skill in business cuz I think it's very predictive of the future. Mhm. Okay?
15:47
So, the reality is when someone comes in and I'm interviewing a top executive for a role in one of our businesses, and they could seem great.
15:55
And then I'm going to go out and I'm never going to ask anybody for a reference, ever.
15:57
I've never asked somebody, "Hey, can you tell me who to call?"
16:00
Like that's the You ask me for a reference on myself, I'd call each other's people and say, "Hey, I gave you as a reference, make sure you say great things about me." Right?
16:05
So, the reality is I'll interview somebody, the first thing I do is if I like them, as soon as they leave, I go out and I start calling people that I knew we had in common to recognize patterns, okay?
16:17
Because to me, 50% of the interview and 50% is um what I learn behind the scenes, and that's probably the more important 50% because someone can blow me away and then, you know, you'll find out one minute that person sucks, that person people don't like working with them, or you can find out that person was a little bit understated, but they're a beast, you know, huge followership, um they're super smart, they've got an unrelenting work ethic.
16:40
So, to me, pattern recognition is everything I use in everything that I do.
16:43
By the way, I use pattern recognition when I go play blackjack with my friends, you know, there's three types of cards you're going to get, cards you're either going to be You know, you're either streaking hot, you're streaking cold, or you're kind of in between.
16:52
And, you know, when you're cold, you should not do what sometimes I'll do if I'm misbehaving, which is be aggressive when you're cold because you had you had a pattern going on.
16:59
So, you got to recognize patterns in whatever you do.
17:02
I find it fascinating how super powerful entrepreneurs hire and fire and recruit and, you know, reward and retain people.
17:09
What have you found when you're interviewing someone?
17:11
I feel like you must have interviewed so many people over the years for huge positions, small positions in the beginning.
17:18
What are you looking for and how were you finding out, apart from the second part which I love, calling up people that you have in common? What are you asking?
17:26
What are you looking for and how are you making sure you find it in that very date-like format?
17:31
So, let me say first of all, and this will, I think, shock you.
17:33
I still probably spend 10 to 20% of a 70 to 90-hour work week interviewing people. Okay?
17:44
So, I am a beast on finding great talent for within our companies cuz to me, you can't win without great talent.
17:55
So, it is probably the thing or one of the things that I spend the most time on is the quest for incredible talent.
18:02
I'm looking for, first, does someone have the subject matter expertise and the intellect to be successful in what we want them to do.
18:12
And then two, do they have the leadership skills cuz generally I'm interviewing people that are either either going to work for me or someone who's going to work for someone who I work with.
18:19
So, let's say the top 50 to 100 people within our our 18,000 people.
18:24
So, I'm looking for people that are going to be real leaders, um that are going to, you know, share the same values that we share.
18:29
I'm looking for people that can be with us for a long period of time.
18:32
Like I want I don't want people that want to come in and be with us for 3 years.
18:35
I want people that want to come Like I like people that want to be with us and build their careers with us for maybe their entire life.
18:39
You know, we want people that are just going to be, you know, and also people that are going to like just they're going to figure out how to build and they're going to put it on their shoulders and they're going to be unrelenting.
18:46
Like that's my personality.
18:47
Like there are so many things that I should not have succeeded at, but I have because like I won't quit, okay?
18:52
And so So, I think those are some of the things I just rambled to you that I care about. No, no, no.
18:57
I I I love those and I guess the thing about not quitting is really interesting, right?
19:01
Because you've got this unrelenting, you can see it in the way you speak in your eyes.
19:05
Like I've just spent a few moments with you.
19:07
We've never met before today and I can fully see that it is just at the core of who you are.
19:14
And you probably find that you can push people and they may not be able to go as far every time because they may not have that same energy in them.
19:21
So, how have you found that balance of like seeing someone who you know has the potential, you know they have the skills, but it's almost like they're like, "Michael, I already went seven times."
19:32
And you're like, "Yeah, dude, we're going to go 17 because I know at 17 we're going to get there."
19:36
Yeah, I think the people that are in my real inner circle, you know, I have six key executives that I work with day in and day out.
19:44
The people that run my three businesses, the the online sports betting and I gaming business, the commerce business which is merchandise and the collectibles business which is trading cards and memorabilia.
19:51
These businesses and then my three corporate executives, like they have that same mentality.
19:58
I won't want to work with anyone that didn't have that mentality of like, you know, cuz they're setting the culture for the entire 18,000, you know, employees at Fanatics.
20:06
And so, to me, if people don't share our core values, you know, they don't believe in what we believe in, it's probably not going to be a great fit.
20:15
They could be a great human being, a great individual, just not be right for us. Mhm.
20:17
Do you ever take a break?
20:19
Have you ever taken a break?
20:21
To me, I don't understand work-life balance.
20:23
It's just it's not who I am.
20:24
So, I'm not going to apologize for it.
20:25
And I know I sound like if people could listen to say like this guy's, you know, a little bit deranged. And but I am who I am.
20:30
I know like I know what I'm good at.
20:31
I know what I like doing.
20:32
I I mean, it may shock you, but I fully relate to it.
20:34
Like to me, it's I, you know, I think people I appreciate I'm trying to get more people to, you know, try try to get more people to not look at me like I'm crazy.
20:42
And and I would agree with you.
20:44
I feel exactly the same way.
20:45
Like this week, and this is my average normal week, I'll I have morning hikes where I'm out with people that I work with, but I love them and I enjoy their company.
20:54
They're not people I have to work with, they're people I enjoy working with.
20:57
So, I'm having a hike meeting in the morning which is, you know, 7:30 a. m.
21:00
Then I'm at work whether I'm doing this or whatever I'm up to, whether I'm recording meditations.
21:05
So, sometimes I'm alone in a studio and sometimes I'm with people.
21:08
And then I have meetings and then I've been having dinner meetings, too, and I love it.
21:11
I wouldn't have it any other way.
21:12
I've had the best interactions.
21:14
I'm getting to know the best people. I know their families.
21:15
I know that they're getting to know their kids, their spouses, whatever it is.
21:19
And to me it's like this is what I want life to be.
21:22
I actually don't look at life as work and life.
21:24
Like I don't have that disconnect.
21:27
And I actually think that when you look at life as a disconnect, that's when you think you're taking away from the other.
21:32
I also think if you do what you love to do, Yeah.
21:36
it almost breaks those barriers down. Totally. Yeah, no.
21:37
So I'm actually more on your side than people may think.
21:42
Uh I'm I'm I'm a big fan of having my daily routines and habits that make me the best version of myself.
21:45
Like obviously meditation, working out.
21:47
There are certain non-negotiables.
21:48
Are there things in your day that you do that are your routines that may not be those things, but things that you're like, you know, this one thing that I do per day, this makes me feel great.
21:57
It's probably centered around work, if I'm going to be honest with you.
22:01
I mean, I I I I was always pleasantly plump until my journal came out.
22:05
So now that my journal's came out, I've gone from 210 to 160.
22:09
I'd say working out is more important to me.
22:11
You know, when you're 210, it's harder to work out.
22:12
When you're 160, it's much easier to work out.
22:15
So you live here in the top of Runyon, and you know, for me, you know, kind of hiking to the top of Runyon, you know, I've done that once already this week.
22:22
I'm going to do it again tomorrow. Like I love doing it.
22:23
Like it's a it's a blast for me.
22:25
Working out's actually something that is becoming good for me because it's the one thing that lets me get a little bit of a mental break.
22:33
Putting my phone down sometimes, I can be so addicted to my phone.
22:36
It's just like I just need like sometimes at dinner when, you know, my family has dinner, just like put my phone down for 20 minutes. That's a good thing.
22:42
So I'd say things that have helped me of late have been, you know, getting those three to four workouts in per week because it does give me some mental clarity.
22:51
I'd say putting my phone down 20 or 30 minutes a day, when I'm just not going to look at it and say, "Okay, like give me a a break."
22:59
Cuz I think you could just become so obsessed that it's almost it's bad for you and then you become less effective. Yeah.
23:06
Um probably the biggest routine I have if we say like let's keep it real, it's going to be the people that I I work closely with it's talking to them all the time.
23:14
I'm always just like peeling the layers back on what we're doing.
23:15
So like any of my, you know, top leaders I'm on the phone with, on Zoom's with, meeting with in person all the time because that's the way we're just like building the best business. Yeah, absolutely.
23:25
And I I I I do believe that it's it's what it takes for the level of success that you've achieved.
23:30
I wonder, you know, if you if you Google your net worth, it says 11 billion.
23:33
Could be more, probably is.
23:35
How do you define how much you're worth? I don't.
23:37
I'll tell you a story I probably shouldn't say.
23:41
God this blowing somebody up I shouldn't blow up but but like Forbes reached out and they said, "Hey, we want to put you on the cover of Forbes um for the Forbes 400."
23:47
I'm like, "No, I don't want to be known for my net worth.
23:49
I want to be known for building a great company."
23:51
By the way, there's so many things with that company that we suck at that we need to be better at.
23:55
Like I want to be like the way I look at it is I'm a big startup and I want to make sure that I'm always fighting to be better in everything we do and in everything we do I want to build what what we make better for the fan and we have so much to do to accomplish that.
24:08
So I don't want to be known about money.
24:09
I don't want to be known I want to be known about making the world a better place or making my company better.
24:13
Those are honestly, you know, the two things I'm maniacally focused on. Yeah, I believe it. I believe it.
24:16
I I genuinely do and and I think who cares like I'm not in a competition for like totally it's irrelevant.
24:22
Like my life is not changing financially based on anything that happens going forward.
24:28
You know, I'm I'm fortunate that I've I'm in a nice position today.
24:31
So like to me the thing that gets me most exciting is winning in business cuz that's my sport.
24:35
That's what I'm good at and so I look at each business and I look at not all the things we do right I look at all the things we do wrong and all the things we can be better at.
24:42
And so I'm always saying how can we improve in everything we do because guess what?
24:47
There are a lot of things we need to be a lot better at and that's what I'm focused on.
24:50
And then, you know, up front you talked about kind of giving back is interesting.
24:54
I never ever cared about making a difference in the world until I had an event in in 2017 that that changed my perspective.
25:02
Before that, I would just always write checks.
25:05
You came and said, "Hey, I'm doing this.
25:07
Hey, let me give you a check to shut you up as quickly as I could because I didn't care.
25:10
I just wanted to focus on work."
25:11
And then my eyes got open, which is what people always say like, "Hey, should I be behind this?"
25:15
I said, "Do what's authentic. Do what's real."
25:16
And you know, for me, that's kind of how my life is kind of, you know, evolved.
25:22
Yeah, and why was it I believe it was Meek Mill who introduced you to criminal justice?
25:26
it I mean, everyone knows the story at this point.
25:28
You know, you know, Meek got you know, sent to prison for two to four years for popping a wheelie on a motorcycle.
25:32
He had the smartest thing he did for both of us was say, "Hey, can you come to court with me that day?
25:35
I want you to see what happens when a black person goes to court."
25:37
I didn't like even understand what he was saying.
25:41
And then, you know, I watched him get sent to prison for two to four years for not committing a crime for popping a wheelie on a motorcycle.
25:46
Like, that was the most uncomfortable thing that's ever happened to my body cuz it was like, I'm used to being in control.
25:53
I'm a strong business leader. I'm used to leading.
25:55
And now I had a judge who sent him to prison for two to four years for not committing a crime for popping a wheelie on a motorcycle.
26:02
And it was like the most out-of-body experience I've ever had.
26:04
And so, once he ultimately got out of prison and we started the Reform Alliance, you know, for me, you know, I learned a really valuable lesson because a lot of people told me, "Don't get involved with this.
26:14
Don't get involved with him.
26:14
You're going to hurt your business.
26:16
You're going to hurt the Sixers."
26:16
And I just went with my instincts, which is like, this is my brother and like, he needs help.
26:21
And by the way, Jay-Z and Desiree Perez from from Roc Nation stepped up in a huge way.
26:24
Like, you know, it was it was kind of us collectively.
26:25
But like, I've had a couple experiences in the last four or five years where we've done things where people told us would be bad for business, bad for us, and we didn't care.
26:36
We did what we thought was the right thing.
26:37
And you always get paid back in karma.
26:39
Like, that is something I've learned in the last five years.
26:42
Probably the biggest thing I've learned in the last five years.
26:43
You know, don't worry about what people tell you is going to be that the right outcome.
26:46
You do what you think is right.
26:47
If you do what's right, you know, it generally works out. Yeah, I know.
26:50
And and I'm glad you repeat that story.
26:51
There may be some of our audience who may or may not be aware.
26:54
So thank you for sharing that but and I wanted them to hear it from you because it it is it's so interesting when something becomes so personal when it happens to someone that's so close to you.
27:03
The issue almost becomes so much more relatable and easy to access.
27:06
For you what have been some of the most like I loved what you said like the moment you walked in here and I was telling you how much I've appreciated the impact work you're doing and you're like we're not doing it fast enough.
27:18
We're not there's more to do, you know.
27:19
And I and I love that it like that's exactly the energy you need to have.
27:22
So walk me through the wins that have been there that have shown you that you're doing the right thing and then walk me through what are the issues that you're still trying to solve and figure out.
27:31
Well, look the interesting thing was when Meek got sent to prison in November 2017 just about everybody I knew said do not get involved in this this will reflect poorly on the Sixers.
27:43
This will reflect poorly on Fanatics.
27:45
Less people will buy tickets and and they're going to see you helping a criminal.
27:50
And so Desiree Perez from Roc Nation, myself, you know, we spent a lot of the next six months, you know, working every day to get him out of prison.
27:59
And once we got him out of prison, you know, Meek said to me and I said to Meek like look this is destiny.
28:06
You got sent to prison because you were the one anointed to help fix the system.
28:10
And I would if you would have asked me before November 12th, 2017 when he got sent to prison, if you would have said to me what do I care about from a charity perspective?
28:19
It was writing checks to get people out of my office as quickly as possible.
28:20
I did not care about any issues.
28:22
But what Meek used to always say to me, Michael, this is a normal day for black America.
28:28
And so, you know, that he had been sent to prison for a technical probation violation.
28:32
It was easy for us to say we have to change the probation and parole system.
28:36
That's what we set out to do.
28:37
The interesting thing was uh when we finally decided to do this which was I guess finally when we did it immediately.
28:41
I was trying to figure out how to come up with a goal cuz to me you have to come up with big bold goals.
28:46
And this this speaks to entrepreneurialism and not taking a kind of charitable approach to things.
28:52
I asked a friend of mine who I don't want to name, but someone I have huge respect for.
28:55
I said, you know, how many people should we try to get out of probation for all?
29:00
They said, "Well, how many people in the system?"
29:00
I said, "4 and 1/2 million."
29:02
They said, "Well, go with 10,000.
29:02
That's a really safe number." I said, "10,000? Let's go for a million."
29:08
So, we're in this less than 5 years, we've passed 17 bills in 11 states and created a pathway for 700,000 people to get off of probation and parole who shouldn't be on it.
29:18
And by the way, um there were 4 and 1/2 million people on probation and parole when we started. There's 3. 8 million people today.
29:24
people today. What's proven, this really important to understand, if you keep someone on probation or parole too long, you entrap them in the criminal justice system, and then what you do is you actually create a less safe outcome for neighborhoods and for environments
29:37
versus if people serve their time, have their appropriate amount of rehabilitation, you know, they're on probation and parole for the right amount of time, then they're going to go out and they're going to make, you know, a positive impact on the world. So, me
29:47
So, me could be on probation between the time served and time left, 18 years.
29:50
Now in California where we're doing this today, the governor signed it in one of the first bills that we did with the with Gavin Newsom, which was amazing, is a 1-year cap on misdemeanor and a 2-year cap on felonies.
30:02
And that was like breakthrough legislation that we worked on together, you know, with many people to bring together to make that happen in the state of California, which is one of the best things we've done at the Reform Alliance.
30:13
So, my point is like That's huge.
30:15
We turned this negative into a positive.
30:17
We then came up with a really bold goal that people thought we were nuts.
30:20
When I told people million people like everyone looked at me like I have seven heads, but I'm like, what's the worst that happens?
30:24
Like, so we get 300,000 people, 400,000 people, I'll still think we won. I don't care.
30:28
You want to say we failed cuz we didn't get the million?
30:30
And by the way, now we're going to we're going to surpass the million, I think. Wow, that's incredible.
30:34
And you're so right, most of us when we set a bold goal, whether it's to make an impact or whether it's in business, we're actually just worrying about what everyone will think if we don't hit that goal.
30:44
to give you a great example. So, it.
30:46
um today at Fanatics, um you know, we built a pretty big business in our commerce space, which is merchandise. That's where I started.
30:53
That's where a lot of people know us from.
30:54
By the way, we still have so much to do to be better, so many things to improve the consumer experience, to innovate more product.
31:00
We're a leader in that business.
31:01
In the collectibles business, we're a real leader today.
31:03
In the online sports betting I gaming business, we're just starting, okay?
31:07
We're going to be um Fanatics Sportsbook just launched earlier this year.
31:11
We'll be basically in just about every legal state by the end of this year under the Fanatics brand with with one wallet.
31:16
I woke up and our guys we talked about being number three.
31:20
Like, you know, hey, FanDuel's number one, DraftKings number two, uh we're number three.
31:25
And, you know, sorry, we we aspire to be number three.
31:27
Today, we're like number eight. We're just starting.
31:29
And, I woke up about 3 weeks ago and I called our CEO Matt King, who's amazing.
31:32
I said, "Matt, like we got Our goal is to be number one.
31:35
By the way, maybe we'll accomplish it, maybe we won't.
31:37
Maybe we won't even be successful at all. Like, the jury's out.
31:40
We're investing a billion and a half dollars to try to be the top player, okay?
31:43
But, like I don't want to play for number three. Number three is a loser.
31:46
I want to play for number one.
31:48
And, so many people going to say to me So many people listening to this would be like, 'Wait, you want me number one to FanDuel and DraftKings in online sports betting I gaming?'
31:54
I'm declaring right now, it's the first time I've publicly said this, I want to be number one.
31:58
I've no idea whether I have any chance of that accomplishing.
32:01
But, I can tell you what, I'm not waking up to try to be number three. That's a loser.
32:06
And, that's what's got you here.
32:06
So, you feel convinced that that's what it was.
32:09
What was the Do you remember the first big goal you ever set? I do. Yeah.
32:10
In 2009, I made a goal I said to all of our uh team, I said that I want to build We were $250 million in revenue 2010.
32:22
I said, "One day, we could be a billion dollars in revenue."
32:24
That division is $6 billion today, okay?
32:26
I said, "One day, we could be a billion dollars, okay?"
32:30
Then, 4 years later, we said, "One day, we could be $5 billion, okay?"
32:32
And, we're only just trying to come up with goals for just like to try to measure, you know, success or failure.
32:37
But I love come up with bold goals and I don't care whether I accomplish them or fail.
32:41
I care about coming up with bold goals to work against and then making huge progress against them whether I accomplish them or not.
32:49
Yeah, the point is you're more likely to challenge yourself enough to come up with better strategies, more products, better customer service.
32:56
Like you actually just going to improve drastically towards that level.
33:00
set goals that are easy to accomplish, then you're actually saying you want to fail Yeah. To start with.
33:05
If you come up with bold goals, and by it's easier Look, I know people are going to say, "I'm an owner.
33:10
It's easier to say that as an owner, okay?"
33:12
And maybe sometimes you just need to set goals up there you say to yourself cuz you don't want to tell your boss that goal was, okay?
33:16
Or you tell your boss, "Here's the budgeting goal I'm giving you, but now let me tell you the real goal that I have, okay?"
33:23
And so, I like rallying people against big, audacious, you know, hard to achieve goals because I think you're just going to accomplish more. Yeah, absolutely.
33:30
How does How does this energy convert over to Michael's love life?
33:34
Like how does this kind of How does How does Michael in love change from Michael in business? to ask Camille that.
33:41
I think what Camille would say is she's incredibly supportive of what I do.
33:42
She knows this is what I love doing.
33:44
You know, she's the most incredible mother on the planet.
33:47
We have So, I have a 17-year-old daughter then I have a 3-year-old and 1-year-old with Camille.
33:52
You know, she puts as much energy as I put into work, she puts into being a mom and I think that's what makes us great together.
33:57
Would I say that, you know, I'm always the most valuable person? No.
34:00
Does she want to, you know, kill me multiple times a week? Probably yes.
34:02
But she also knows this is what makes me me and what I love to do and, you know, she loves being the greatest mom in the world.
34:09
We have a great relationship, but, you know, would you call my personal life or our personal life perfect?
34:12
Definitely not cuz I work like an animal. No, of course not. Of course not.
34:14
No No one has the perfect personal or professional life.
34:17
But did you The The reason why I ask is, you know, it's really interesting.
34:20
I I always feel like, you know, so much can be solved at the point of connection.
34:25
What I mean by that is I, you know, my wife's a busy person.
34:30
and a busy person, but I've, you know, I was I was saying to some of my team the other day, I'm really grateful that my wife has never said to me in the last 10 years that we've been together, "You don't spend enough time with me."
34:39
Uh, it's because she knows who I am, she understands how I work, she knows I make time, I am present when I'm there, but she gets me.
34:48
Like she she really gets me and she got me when we got together.
34:49
Yes, I was very not successful when we met, but she gets me and she's seen that energy grow and so she loves the time.
34:56
And by the way, I don't say the same to her either.
34:58
She never hears from me like, "You don't spend enough time with me or you're not around."
35:01
If she's busy and she has to move.
35:04
Did you know that when you met Camille? How did you set that up?
35:06
How did that become real?
35:08
How did you get to know you that well?
35:10
Because I feel like for a lot of people, the way you work, the way I work, the way certain people work, it would be unbearable and it would be a deal-breaker, but then it's really hard to also have an amazing life and and build everything you want to build, right?
35:23
It's So, how how did you I'm just intrigued as to how you had that conversation early days.
35:28
Yeah, I'm not sure if we had the conversation.
35:29
Kind of just grew into what it is.
35:31
I think the same thing for Camille or my older daughter Kylie, they would both say they wish that I were more available, more present, but they also respect and learn from my work ethic and what I do.
35:44
And I think, you know, kind of works itself out in the end, but, you know, different than you, um, I do hear from both Camille and Kylie, you know, "You don't have enough time for me.
35:53
You're not available enough."
35:54
And sometimes that's a really good part of it, like, "Okay, you know, put your phone down and turn the ringer off for a half an hour.
36:00
You know, you don't always need to grab every call."
36:04
You know, what what what my older daughter would always say to me, Kylie, is like, "Dad, it's always somebody important.
36:08
I'm your oldest daughter."
36:10
And Camille would say to me, "You know, it's me.
36:11
Like, just let it go for a little bit."
36:12
So, they actually help me, whatever little balance I have, I think I get from Camille and Kylie.
36:16
I loved what you said, like, you know, sometimes they say I need more time, but they also respect me.
36:21
How do you reconcile that kind of dad guilt that could come with that or and a lot of I'm not a father yet, but a lot of my friends who are they'll say it's so painful watching your little girl my my friends who have little girls will say it's so painful watching your little girl say Daddy just stay at home with me today, right?
36:38
Like how are you how do you reconcile like this is good for them to see me work hard and I know when to like put my phone down, but how do you how do you make sense with that?
36:47
Yeah, well the good thing is my three-year-old and one-year-old have grown up with me like this so and so did Kylie by the way.
36:51
So they've all seen that work ethic.
36:52
Look, Kylie is everyone knows my 17-year-old is with me, you know, all the time.
36:57
She travels with me all the time.
36:59
She's actually on a plane right now.
37:00
She's about to land here in a few hours.
37:01
So, you know, she you know, she's with me a lot.
37:03
She's got a great, you know, Kylie and Camille have a great relationship and they may have a support group, you know, together for the two of them against me.
37:09
Um every family's different.
37:11
Every person's different and everyone needs to do what works for them and I think I do what works for me and they do what works for them and I think they appreciate it.
37:17
I also know to be there when it really matters.
37:20
And so for me, Kylie went through an experience earlier this year and she called me and it had to do with college.
37:25
She's like cursing me out.
37:26
She's like like I need you to help me figure this out right now and it's about like get you get cuz Kylie's much smarter than me, but she's not like, you know, she goes to the toughest school in Philadelphia and she like she wanted like some help with certain things and like I had to call around and figure out how how to do that and learn pull the layers back and ultimately figure out together.
37:42
So like when it really matters like I'm always there and I'm good at figuring out what matters and what doesn't.
37:47
And so I think that could be a superpower I have which is how to prioritize.
37:50
I am good at figuring out when I'm I really need it, when do I need to like, you know, lock in and focus.
37:55
It could be locking in and focusing on a really important business deal or it could be locking in and focusing on a really important moment for Camille or for Kylie. Yeah.
38:00
What what what your daughters do for you my sister does for me.
38:04
She'll always be like stop being Jay Shetty, just be my brother.
38:07
Like, you know, it's like that feeling of like stop giving me that advice.
38:10
Just be my brother and like give me a hug.
38:11
Yeah, I get I get that from both of them all the time.
38:13
My three-year-old Rome will I'm sure be giving me that like within a year or two.
38:18
And it's the best feeling, right?
38:18
It's such a it's such a beautiful feeling cuz you know someone loves you and wants you to just be there for them.
38:24
It's getting those moments which you can really appreciate.
38:25
So, you know, I try try to get them when I can.
38:27
Yeah, and Michael, that's what I'm trying to do on this podcast here, you know, I don't have a I don't think there is an ideal way to live.
38:32
I don't think there is a perfect way to approach your problems.
38:34
I think that what I like to do is I like to introduce people.
38:39
This is kind of my whole hypothesis in life.
38:41
If I can introduce people to as many diverse people as possible that have all in their own way found purpose, impact, and success, then people actually have a chance of saying, "I like what they're saying.
38:55
I'm going to run with that."
38:57
Or actually, you know what, I never thought about it like that because I find when I was growing up, we were all exposed to the same set of people and the same set of ideas and it was so hard to break that and it was only for me, obviously, which is my personal journey, when I met a monk at 18, I didn't know what monks were.
39:13
I didn't care what monks were.
39:13
I had no interest in anything spiritual.
39:17
If I'd never met a monk, I would never have gone down the path of life I did.
39:21
And so, I'm always asking people, "Who's your monk?"
39:22
And for some people, their monk will be you and what I mean by that is they're going to get introduced to you and go, "Yeah, that's that's how I want to live my life.
39:28
That that resonates with me." Does that make sense? It makes complete sense.
39:31
I'm a huge believer in it and I have Look, if you'd say what's the most unique thing about me, it's probably the diversification of the people around me and I think I've built that because it's right for me because I'm learning from all these people around me.
39:45
And so, I've got this person actually, it's a a person who owns a local hobby shop and he keeps uh sending me these really long text messages and I actually keep meaning to send him back a voice note just to say, "Hey, man, I actually appreciate your input, but I don't I barely read."
39:59
Like I'm not that literate.
40:01
Like you're you're laughing. I'm dead serious.
40:03
Like I haven't read a book since 9th grade.
40:06
The last book I read was in 9th grade.
40:06
I read The Swoosh, the story about the unauthorized story about Phil Knight.
40:10
So, last time I read a book, okay?
40:10
So, I'm not a good reader.
40:12
I'm pretty dyslexic, okay?
40:14
So, like the way I learn is by like quick conversations.
40:16
You know, you want me to read something, send me three lines and I'm actually going to read it.
40:20
You send me three paragraphs, I'm already I'm tuned out before I start.
40:23
Um so, it's like that's what I'm saying, we all got to learn from each other what works for each other and that's, you know, what makes me me. Absolutely.
40:29
Michael, you've been amazing.
40:31
We end every episode with a final five. You'll like this.
40:33
Each question has to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
40:37
So, it goes aligned with what you just said.
40:39
So, Michael Rubin, these are your final five.
40:42
Question one is, what is the best entrepreneurship advice you've ever heard or received? Don't be afraid to fail. Because?
40:47
Cuz if you're afraid to fail, you're never going to take the shot.
40:50
Like how do you want to be an entrepreneur?
40:52
You're sitting there and you're trying to figure out like should I do this or not?
40:57
Like you got to go for it.
40:57
Second question, what is the worst entrepreneurship advice you've ever heard or received? Do it for the money. Mm.
41:03
All right, question number three.
41:06
What's something you're currently trying to learn, maybe in business or in life, something you're working on?
41:11
How to do what's best for the consumer in everything that we do. Mm.
41:13
Like just complete consumer focus.
41:15
I didn't grow up as a complete consumer person, so I think there's things if I look at parts of Fanax where we're not good enough, we haven't been good enough.
41:22
I'd say it's an obsession with the consumer. Yeah.
41:25
That's what I always loved about I still love it today.
41:27
Like when I grew up, I remember the first time my parents took me to Disney World and I was just like everything about this place is like perfectly organized for me to have the best time of my life. Yeah.
41:37
And it's it's insane how much detail you can put into someone's experience. Yeah, yeah.
41:42
I think we we got our business model right.
41:44
Everything I do has to be about the consumer.
41:47
To win in a consumer business, it has to be about consumer first in everything you do.
41:52
That's something that I've that I'm really It's the biggest thing I'm focused on right now. Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful.
41:56
All right, question number four.
41:58
How would you define your current purpose with your impact work? Um real change.
42:04
Like to make real change, not like Like so many people who make impact work, they write First of all, writing a check is easy, okay?
42:10
If you have money writing a check is easy.
42:13
Like don't think cuz you give money away that you're making a difference.
42:14
Like go do the work, okay? But make it real change.
42:18
Like measure the results.
42:18
Treat it like a business, not like, you know, a charity.
42:22
Like we don't want to run the Reform Alliance like a charity.
42:23
We want to run it like a business.
42:25
We want business results. Beautiful.
42:26
Uh fifth and final question.
42:28
We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show.
42:30
If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
42:36
Can't be president after 65.
42:36
I want the president of the United States to be an animal from a work ethic perspective.
42:41
I want them to be on their A game.
42:43
I want to make sure that they're maniacal about the country the way I'm maniacal about my business.
42:46
One law to go in place, Max, you can't be elected to become president after 65 years old. Michael Rubin everyone.
42:52
If you've been listening and watching, make sure that you cut the clips for TikTok and Instagram that related to you.
42:57
Insights that you loved, share them.
42:59
I love knowing what are the lessons you're taking away. What are you practicing?
43:03
What are you implementing and putting into your life?
43:05
I think everyone just got the best pep talk that they need for right now in their life.
43:08
This is going to get you to those big goals. Listen to this episode.
43:12
Share it with your friends.
43:13
Share it with your family.
43:13
I'm sure someone just needs a train to come run through their mind and break through all of the barriers that they've set up.
43:20
I think Michael's that train.
43:20
Uh Michael, thank you so much.
43:23
the way, disagree with us.
43:23
Tell me what you disagree with.
43:24
Tell me what you don't agree with.
43:25
By the way, I love I love when you disagree with me, too. Yeah, yeah, totally. Of course.
43:27
If you disagree with us, you can tell us, too. You do that anyway.
43:30
I don't need to ask for that.
43:32
Hey, thanks for having me. It was a blast. Thank you, Michael. Such a blast. I appreciate you, man.
43:35
And thank you for being so What I appreciate about you is your clarity, your commitment to that clarity, and that you're still open and available to learn.
43:45
I think that curiosity, that's what I see in you.
43:47
It's like complete clarity, complete commitment to who you are, and then still being curious.
43:51
That's a deadly combination. So, thank Thank you. Well well said.
43:53
And we try to preach it and do it every day. Thank you, man. Thank you.
43:57
If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Kobe Bryant on how to be strategic and obsessive to find your purpose.
44:05
Our children have become less imaginative about how to problem solve, and parents and coaches have become more directive in trying to tell them how to behave versus teaching them how to behave.