0:00
This is the best Bleachers album you've made, in my opinion.
Search this video
0:01
I think so, too, but it's nice to hear. Um Yeah.
0:04
>> You you live with it alone, man. It's weird. Yeah.
0:06
>> People have this idea Um this goes for Bleachers, my production work, every everywhere.
0:10
Peop- People just have these wild ideas of how it's done.
0:14
They think there's these like people listening. It's like it's so small. It's crazy. And it's by design.
0:20
You know, the second you open it up, um I I almost see making records like you're like you're like you're like making something like like a house of cards, and you like see it, but like you know the world wouldn't see it yet.
0:30
And like you're so excited, but like it's not done.
0:34
And letting anyone else see it like even just it would just like destroy it for you. No one It's weird.
0:39
So, it it I'm I'm stuttering around this, but it's a very emotional phase I'm in sharing it cuz it's like bizarre.
0:45
Well, we have a cultural dissonance of uh it's a huge part of this album of the everyone-ness of everything. >> Yeah.
0:54
So, no artist, you know, when I was 13 first, you know, feeling misunderstood and and finding music and finding that as a way to communicate, there was no part of me that wanted to reach everyone.
1:04
There was no part of me that wanted to be adored by everyone.
1:08
>> actually the opposite.
1:08
You and your friends were doing 250 gigs a year to avoid people.
1:12
>> It always starts as the opposite.
1:12
It starts from a weird chip on your shoulder.
1:16
It starts from feeling misunderstood. >> It's super important.
1:19
>> Yeah, super important.
1:19
So, to have it's it's a moment There's a lot of things going on in the world, which I touch on in the album, but even in the music community, it's like we're about to break through this wall. We all hate it.
1:30
Like the amount of stats we talk about, the amount like no fans give a >> I got into music cuz I was at math.
1:37
How is math running music?
1:39
>> Well, you know whose idea it was?
1:39
The people upstairs, you know?
1:40
It's like you become you become you know, they make you in their image to do their bidding, right?
1:46
No fan cares if their artist is the biggest in the world or just broke some record or this or that. No one gives a >> Yeah.
1:55
And artists don't give a And I don't give a And none of us do.
2:00
And it's just I want to get I want to kick that wall in and just be like, "Guys, it's about the album. It's about the lyrics.
2:05
It's about the way it's played or sang.
2:07
And it's about the show."
2:09
>> But you must get a sense that is happening.
2:10
I certainly do from a little bit of altitude and playing a lot of music and being immersed in a lot of people's life stories, which is their music, right?
2:16
So, let's talk a little bit about like uh let's go from Chicago to Nashville.
2:21
Let's go from uh lifeguard uh and horse girl and that crew of of of artists, these young bands and like teens who are who are like pressing up vinyl and handing out cassettes and doing cuz my take at least have to ask them, but like the internet cool tool, but a bit of an F in terms of like all of the answers.
2:39
And then over here you've got Hayley who's coming out of this big machine who seems to be having the time of her life.
2:48
>> it and and and and the whole thing and kind of smiling and winking the whole time.
2:51
Calling her label Post Malone and like leaving >> It's a It's It's to me it's so not that deep.
2:57
And I I I talk about this on the inside just for like, "What do we What do we think is is interesting and cool?"
3:02
Not what is anyone else doing because I see but I see like the music scene and the internet in general as kind of like like a like a city street.
3:10
And everyone's rushing by. You know what I mean?
3:14
And everyone's rushing by and just like shouting And like as an artist, you just want to be sitting on that street playing your music.
3:20
>> You just want real estate.
3:20
Yeah, to find out if anyone rushing by is compelled enough to stop. >> Mhm. Right?
3:25
But I think the problem is when I'm walking down the street in New York City, you know, the things that mean the most to me is when I'm caught by something.
3:31
But often what catches my attention is someone being like, "Fuck you. Bush did 9/11." You know what I mean?
3:36
Like those kind of like inflammatory thoughts.
3:37
And And that is what plays.
3:40
But no artist is It It It's just about reclaiming our like heart and soul of of why we do this and not letting it turn into a video game.
3:50
Which I think I actually this is not a dig.
3:53
I think we're I think this is a I think we're we're at the end of something.
3:57
Like it's all just kind of Well, okay. >> flattening out. Yeah, okay.
3:59
So >> we're heading to a beautiful place.
4:02
Good, cuz there's at the end there's multiple people have different um ideas about what comes next. Yeah.
4:06
If you talk to some people who I know, they're like it's progress and and and and added technology and we have to adapt. I'm super that. Uh I like progress.
4:18
I wouldn't be at Apple without progress, but my thing is like uh don't fix music.
4:25
Well, I think >> [laughter] >> I I I I tend to agree with you, but what I back up to is sort of like where we all meet.
4:30
So it's like whether you're trying to like shoot through the screen into like a different transcendent transcendent place or like reject it and eat from the ground and make your music there, it's sort of the same thing in the sense that no one's happy with this.
4:46
No one sits around and says, "This is it. We figured it out." Yeah. So much amazing music.
4:51
There's so much brilliant stuff.
4:51
Young people are doing incredibly brilliant things.
4:54
There's just a great vibe out there, but the systems in which it's all being run through are are are so cooked, it's almost funny.
5:01
Um so I look at that and I think the same thing political politically, I think the same thing about communication.
5:07
Big part of the album is like one of the first times in my life that every person, no matter who you are, is like, "Well, it's not going to be this." Right?
5:16
Like, you know, it's all a scam. We figured that out.
5:19
Having our hopes and dreams get sort of monetized and regurgitated back to us, it's all boring.
5:26
So everyone's like pushing like let's get to the next moment.
5:28
For me, that goes onto the album in the live show.
5:33
But it's just an exciting time.
5:35
>> Which is the human side of it.
5:35
That's the eating from the ground up side of it. >> For me it is, yeah.
5:38
But I also think like in my time in art, you know, like I've never I've as an artist and every artist I know, I've never sat there and said, "If there was only a way we could record music better."
5:49
Never said Never said it.
5:49
If anything, I like bow at the altar of recorded music.
5:53
I sit there and think this is so magical.
5:54
There's so many options and it's like it's endless.
5:55
So, it's often the people trying to change the form are non-artists who are looking to break something and profit fit off of it. That's right. A scale. Yeah.
6:03
Um because no one's like I'm I've never like sat there.
6:07
I've never watched a great movie. I'm I don't make movies. I'm a big fan, right?
6:10
And and thought, "God, that was a brilliant hour and a half 2 hours.
6:13
But what if we changed the form?" Never.
6:15
I just think to myself I've never looked at a painting and been like, "But what if I could like put my hand in the painting and feel something?"
6:22
It's just like some forms it's like the human body or love it's like why is an album 10 to 15 songs?
6:31
You know, why is a TV show this long? Why is a book this?
6:33
What you do in the form is all that matters and sometimes we get dragged on these journeys then you get to the end of the journey and you're just like, "That was just like >> Yeah, whatever. What the was that?
6:42
What the was >> weird, you know, Yeah.
6:43
like who was like found a way to extort money from people. It's just scaling up.
6:49
That's why I'm not really mad about it so much anymore.
6:51
When it first started to present itself in a particular certain um Hmm.
6:55
>> [clears throat] >> How do I do this delicately? Do it undelicately.
6:59
Certain people were coming up making certain statements about why these things existed and they were just so off.
7:03
I'm like, "You really don't understand."
7:05
Uh and I got mad, you know, I got mad and for a few months I was the mad rapper, you know, I was just like, "Fuck that that IT. THAT IT."
7:12
AND I was in and I realized I was like a crazy person and I wasn't actually achieving anything.
7:17
I was just sounding like a crazy person.
7:18
It's good to show your emotions.
7:20
I've been super mad about systems.
7:20
I'm never mad about my work. That's good. No, that's a safe place.
7:24
Um sometimes I I just think people are in a lot of pain and looking for connection and there's these beautiful connection points.
7:35
Whether that's music, art, community, all these things.
7:37
And when anyone gets in the way of that, I get pretty hot.
7:41
You know, that's uh that's where the album That's where the album starts, man, as well with Sideways.
7:43
I mean, you know, I I one of the thing one of the reasons I love pressing play on a new Bleachers record whenever I get to hear it is that I feel like um the journey has been taken into consideration in a very real way.
7:52
Um you know, it it's a it's another road trip.
7:55
It's a beautiful road trip.
7:57
>> that's you know, my whole life everyone says the album is dead and I'm like, No, this Okay, that's hilarious.
8:01
>> but first of all, not true, but I'm like, okay.
8:02
Well, so what do you what do you want me to do?
8:04
No, but we're about we're about we're >> I'll probably go home We're about we're about to say the same thing because when people used to say that to me when the streaming era started to begin and these certain people in the room who remember this, the conversation was like, "Well, playlists are going to replace the album.
8:15
It's all about individual freedom of choice to create whatever experience you want over a period of time."
8:18
So, you tell me what the experience should be. >> fell asleep. Exactly.
8:21
And I used to say to people, "No, you're missing the point.
8:24
You haven't asked the artist what they think." Or the fans even.
8:26
Yeah, they they they want to have the experience.
8:28
I need a complete thought.
8:29
I need to know what someone is really feeling in their life.
8:32
And that is the amount of time it takes.
8:33
Not to get too deep, but that's a dissonance >> Oh, if I get deep >> of our time, right? So, like I make music.
8:38
I got a lot of thoughts about a lot of things.
8:40
I don't want to do anything besides make music.
8:41
I know how to play a show.
8:42
I've done it my whole life.
8:44
I know how to make records.
8:45
I know how to write songs. This is what I do.
8:46
I am so laser-focused there.
8:49
Sometimes I'm walking down the street and I see stuff and I just like I have a million ideas about like how they could do public bathrooms better or this or you know, it's like and then I shut the up and go make music. >> on Yelp? No. No. Is that a bad idea? >> I'm on nothing.
9:01
>> [laughter] >> But um my point is a lot of times the functions of how these things happen aren't coming from people who are experts in doing it.
9:09
They're coming from people who have a different mind and then just wanted to sort of megalomaniacally or >> [laughter] >> or whatever the right terminology is, do everything.
9:20
Um and I think I think I think the death of expertise is the is the great boredom of our time.
9:25
You know, I don't want uh I want I love people who spend their life obsessively digging deeper and deeper and deeper into something. Yeah.
9:33
Uh so, I'm surrounded by and it's a beautiful thing.
9:37
It's a life well lived because, you know, it's the never-ending journey.
9:40
Who wants to get to the end of something?
9:41
Who wants to clock the game?
9:42
I would always feel I would talk to my friends who are really good at video games and they'd clock it and I'd be like, "How do you feel?"
9:47
And they'd be like, "Kind of bummed." Yeah.
9:49
You don't want to You don't want to win. You don't want to win.
9:52
You don't want to You don't want to um I don't know.
9:56
It's like Well, let's just talk about winning for a second cuz you have won quite considerably.
9:59
But you know I meant in a deeper way.
10:02
>> No, but you can't choose.
10:03
So, let's let's not create a hierarchy around winning.
10:05
Let's talk about winning.
10:06
Let's talk about you don't want to win necessarily in life or win the win the game of life or any of that stuff.
10:11
But not winning is nice to be acknowledged.
10:14
So, when you do win, what does that winning mean to you?
10:17
Let's just micro in on that for a second.
10:18
Like what does winning producer of the year three four times mean to you? It's encouraging.
10:24
You got to take it for what it is. You know what I mean?
10:27
You didn't You know, it's just You could You could go down all the rabbit holes of different cynical feelings and stuff, but when I feel that way, it's like uh my family's around me and my life is so about the future that it's just like I take it for exactly what it is.
10:41
A moment that, you know, we we take a day and think look at the road behind us. You know?
10:49
Um but it's not entering my mind when I'm making things.
10:53
Um You know, one of the one of the things I love about what I do is I always feel like a baby.
10:59
Like I always feel like I'm kind of like looking up at the sky.
11:00
When I just when I think I figured something out, it I've it it it disappears.
11:03
Like chasing ghosts, right?
11:06
That's like love, relationships, all of it.
11:08
You're You're searching for something.
11:12
Um so, like I don't know.
11:12
Sometimes like something cool just gives you a pep in your step.
11:16
But it's not like, you know, that shit's not around the studio.
11:18
That stuff isn't going to give me any answers.
11:22
So, where does control catch you in a situation the way you're describing life and I love it because I I search for the same thing and I strive to do this in in the present moment.
11:29
A a of letting go, a desire to not try to control things.
11:32
Very hard for me, but >> Same.
11:34
So, where does it catch you?
11:34
Where does it Where does it trip you out?
11:36
Where do you find yourself leaning back into this place of like, "Damn, man, I I'm really feeling it.
11:39
I'm holding on tight here."
11:40
Mhm, everywhere else cuz I cuz I exercise like, you know, I think because I have such a lack of control in my creative life as by design, then I then then I I'm very I'm kind of like a monk in other places.
11:53
Like I wake up at this time. This is what I eat.
11:55
This is what I'm putting in my smoothie. >> Big routine guy.
11:57
I get very I wouldn't even call it routine.
11:59
I would call it like OCD. Yep. Um and but that's funny.
12:03
You know, I I think like that like, you know, OCD, depression, anxiety, it's like they're just kind of part of the walk of life unless they stop you from moving.
12:13
And I've had I've had moments like that so. >> Same.
12:15
I'm OCD and and I had to go through a few pretty significant years trying to untangle that and figure out how to use it as a tool and not be the victim of that experience.
12:23
>> like I'm, you know, someone might categorize me as complicated now.
12:24
I feel pretty good right now.
12:26
I've had moments in my life where it was uncomfortable to do things cuz of these voices in in my head, you know.
12:32
So, but but yeah, I'm pretty rigid.
12:35
I like to like shut off at a certain point.
12:37
I'm, you know, you got to know yourself. I'm good in the morning.
12:41
The more I hear, the more I eat, the the quieter like the interesting voices get.
12:46
So, I try to if I'm home just write in the morning. Mhm. Journal? No, write write write. Yeah. Just uh Do you journal?
12:54
No, I don't like to my hand cramps. Yes.
12:56
So, I I I really like I'm all about like We'll talk. Yeah.
12:59
No, I'm all about just recording myself. I get it, man.
13:03
I look at my lineage and which I wrote about a lot on the album.
13:05
It's like, you know, a lot of the the chill people in in my uh Yeah.
13:11
my lineage didn't make it out.
13:15
So, it's like I'm here because my grandparents were like, "We got to get the out of here." [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
13:20
>> they were correct, but it wasn't necessarily a chill thought.
13:22
So, then they created people who had that same feeling.
13:28
But that that's a huge I mean that was the you know Sideways in the Van, the first two songs I'm talking about my origin story. >> That's right.
13:36
Um but there's a way deeper piece to it which is this amazing joy and amazing guilt of like severing the ancestral pact.
13:43
Coming from a long line of people who were like all they wanted for their kids was to have a roof over their head, food on the table, and some version of safety to raise a family. >> Yeah.
13:54
Um and then I grew I got I I was when I was born I had the opportunity to kind of cut that cord and get in the van.
14:05
Which is really interesting.
14:05
It but a lot of guilt came with it.
14:09
Well, we understandably and and this isn't coming from a place of naivety.
14:11
I can fully dial into what you're saying.
14:14
But just for people who are listening and watching through a little more of a microscope.
14:18
Um what do you think that guilt was attached to?
14:20
The the stories Everyone has their own Everyone has their ancestral pact, right?
14:26
Some some some people are born to break it.
14:27
If your ancestors, you know, did horrible things then you break the cycle. Yeah, you break that.
14:33
My ancestral pact was just this kind of like very Eastern European mentality.
14:38
They're coming to get us so we just have to like keep it tight. Yeah.
14:41
You know, keep everything tight, you know. Uh keep family tight.
14:45
Um you know, just have a nice small house and just put food on the table just like >> Yeah.
14:50
And and >> Generational trauma bonding, really. >> Majorly.
14:53
And that's that's where it came from.
14:55
So when I did what I did uh there was just a lot to it.
14:59
But it was me and all my guys.
15:00
We're all coming from the same general place.
15:01
So what prompted you to get in the van?
15:04
Was it in part because you recognized the ancestral line and you didn't want to have that experience?
15:11
Were you rejecting something to >> No, I kind of actually love that.
15:14
I think I think my ancestral line minus some of the anxiety is is the meaning of life. Love, family, food. Mhm. You know, kind of it. Uh music.
15:28
For me it was I just discovered um uh music and I just knew it at a very young age, contrary to a lot of things I was being told, you know, music school, this or that, but the only way to do it was to do it.
15:39
Those stories are are if if you can block out the noise as a young artist, they're right there for you from the dawn of you know, blues artist to jazz artist to the first bands to the the Carter family, whoever it is, all the way to '70s, '80s, '90s, everyone who who really needed to communicate this communicate this way got in Yeah.
15:59
the van or the covered wagon and went and did it.
16:03
You are Yeah, you are a you are a um person who brings your work hand to hand. And I still do that.
16:12
I I like I the the concept of I'm in a new town, a new city, and I restart this machine, and I retell this story, but it's different uh is is a huge part of the art.
16:22
That's one of the reasons I love going to a Bleachers show is that even though I know that 50% of the crowd may have seen you perform before, you're a you're hitting that stage like this is the first time you've met anybody every single time.
16:35
It's the I mean shows are like miracles. I always felt that way. Um and so Yeah.
16:41
It I don't know, it just feels that way to me.
16:45
And I and I think it's more needed than ever just this like right here, right now this is all we have.
16:52
Beats the out of my body sometimes.
16:54
I don't have that bone in me where I'm like, "Ooh, I should save my voice a little bit, you know, Chicago's tomorrow or No, you're you're you're an out-of-body performer.
17:02
Yeah, the whole band is and that's why I wrote a little thing about this last night as going to put up at some point, but just like so interested how like all the guys like dragged this whole past with us, like all those shows to no one, all those like that kind of like and but it's like armor, that that belief.
17:22
I I experienced that at the weekend when I saw Dijon and Henry and Ryan and that whole group of his on stage and I said to my friend and it's the same for a Bleachers show.
17:32
I said, you could draw a curtain between the the stage and the audience right now where they can't actually see each other.
17:40
And if you put a camera behind that curtain on the stage, that band would still be playing as hard for each other >> without anybody around.
17:47
Like they are it's it's the most >> You know it.
17:50
You know it when you see it.
17:51
But it but it's it's fact.
17:51
And I've been talking to the guys about it, I've talked to friends about this, I've talked to a lot of younger musicians about this.
17:56
It's like we do this either way. Like by by design.
18:02
And then when you do have an audience, you honor it even more because you know what it's like to not. But yeah, it's a trip.
18:08
It's magical live music, you know, it's why uh it's kind of like all I really have.
18:13
It's um it's a pause on Bleachers for a second, come back in a few minutes time and just since I brought it up, um I didn't see you in the desert, so I'm assuming you weren't there and you watched the stream or maybe you didn't watch it, but you know, your friends >> Yeah, I watched Turnstile, I watched Sabrina, I watched Dijon, I watched Slayyyter.
18:29
>> to talk about Slayyyter was amazing. >> Wednesday. Yeah.
18:31
Um I watched Yves, I watched I watched a few things. Yeah. I like watching it. It's really fun. It's fun.
18:39
And I yeah, I was at the Slayyyter show on the first on the first day, the first weekend and I watched uh it was just fantastic watching her just come out there and just like lay waste to that 10:00 to 3:00 on a Friday, you know.
18:50
Those were my favorite shows.
18:52
>> the journey she's been on, man.
18:52
I mean, talk about some hit and miss try and trial and error and for her to just land it and to be exactly who she is was great.
18:58
But I wanted to I wanted to zero in on the Sabrina show for a second.
19:01
Highly conceptual, highly theatrical, just flawlessly delivered pop show that at the core of it has these songs that not all of them, but but but a lot of the bigger ones you've been involved with and and have worked with her on. >> Smaller ones, too. And smaller ones, too. Yes, [laughter] I think.
19:17
Shouts to the smaller ones.
19:19
Uh you know, what does it feel like if you can put it into words when you're experiencing vicariously the joy people are getting from something that you had such an intimate role in helping to come to life? Oh, life-affirming.
19:31
It's the best feeling in the world.
19:34
Because, like I was saying before, it comes from such a tiny place. Mhm.
19:35
You know, like that living room and just the four of you Yes, tiny.
19:41
It's like a secret that um Yeah.
19:43
the [snorts] people in the room who are making it, you know, Laura, Sabrina, John, Amy, myself just in that little space. There's no focus group. There's no one else. No one's hearing it. Yeah.
19:53
And and if anything, what I've noticed is um as time has gone on and the the world is sort of buzzing with endless communication, all my projects are getting more and more insular in a great way. So, it's it's surreal.
20:06
You know, it doesn't matter how big an artist is and even if the writing is on the wall that they have a lot of fans and a lot of people will hear it.
20:13
When you see people connecting to it in a certain way, uh it's completely surreal.
20:18
Just just cuz of the the literal opposite nature of how it's made. It is polar opposite.
20:24
It's I feel this way about every album I make.
20:28
You make it in a dream state.
20:28
You're sitting in a small room. >> Mhm.
20:31
And you're thinking, what if What would it feel like if a lot of people were connecting with this?
20:37
And so, it's like the sound of a great album to me is the sound of people dreaming about connection.
20:40
Live music is literal connection.
20:42
So, when you see the like actual fruition of of a dream, like to me a great album should sound like a dream.
20:49
Like I don't want it to sound like the live show.
20:50
I don't want it It's like it should sound like people dreaming of a thing and then capturing that document before they even fully know what it is.
20:57
So, it's um it's like uh yeah, and I I started thinking about it, but it's it's beautiful. Zero cynicism there.
21:04
I just watch stuff like that and I'm just like >> Yeah, man. It inspires me.
21:08
I want to I want to go make more music. You know?
21:13
[snorts] And I like and I like how like the journey of that like I feel like it's so much fun making a song like Manchild and now it's >> Yeah, yeah.
21:20
>> Yeah, yeah. Sitting on a couch is laying it down in the room and then next thing you know it's up on that stage and it's just kind of playing the It's a cornerstone of this incredible magical Sabrina Wood concept which is Or like Cow Store we did We were We were in
21:31
the UK and we were working on Man's Best Friend and then there's the last night and like the drink cart came at this place we were staying and we all got some drinks and then it was like 2:00 in the morning and we just kind of like were having fun and just did it. And and
21:44
And and I I'll never be unstunned by the um by where it comes from and it's usually from, you know, moments of just like connection and joy where the great stuff comes from.
21:55
You can't set out to do that.
21:56
Anytime I've ever set out to do something it it dies a hard death quickly.
22:00
No, it is 100% a tangible energy searching for a host.
22:03
And if you're open and available to it and you and you just grab it, it's like can you hold on long enough to just Not just my favorite songs, any song I've ever done.
22:13
I can remember how it happened and it's and it's not by saying let's do this.
22:18
You know, it dies quite quickly.
22:18
It would be like you wouldn't sit with a friend at coffee and be like, "Hey, let's have a deep conversation."
22:23
It just starts and you go.
22:24
You just like you're there, you're not.
22:27
>> Well, that's the art of therapy, too.
22:28
The amount of times I've sat down with my therapist and gone, "I've really got nothing to say this week."
22:30
And he's like, >> Oh, yeah.
22:31
"Well, let's just see about that, you know?"
22:33
And he starts asking me what I had for lunch and by the end of it I'm in floods of tears. >> I think about dreams. I think about religion.
22:38
I think about all these things constantly.
22:39
But to be in America is is to be bombarded by um a lot of other people's ideals.
22:46
And it's And it So it's always To be in America is to be bombarded by a lot of other people's ideals.
22:52
No, I have to wait my I know but it's not going to >> again. Just go again.
22:55
I have to wait for it to end for it to go again. I can't Just go on cue. Yeah, yeah. Do it again.
22:59
To be in America is to be bombarded by other people's ideals.
23:05
Which is why I love playing I mean, I love playing everywhere, but when I go to Europe, their their their view on American music is fascinating. What is it? It's very clear.
23:12
It's sort of like the way like if I hear a record from Manchester or from Japan or some Italian thing, like it's like I'm viewing it from like the dream lens of like what I've read about it.
23:23
When I So like So what's on the mood board of a fan that's coming to an to an American like say a Bleachers What is on the mood board?
23:30
They're like, "Oh man, I This is what I'm coming for.
23:32
I know what I'm This is what I'm European American fan? European fan. >> European.
23:36
I think a European fan can witness uh sort of like heartland American music. >> Freedom, baby. Freedom is the answer.
23:45
>> [laughter] >> Quite the opposite.
23:46
I I think they they get all the the sarcasm within it. Yeah, yeah.
23:50
Uh but I think when you're in America and you're playing with all these things, it's much it's much dicier, you know, in little ways.
23:54
You know, like to me like, you know, bringing the fiddle on "Dirty Wedding Dress" or playing with anything that sounds far or heartland, it's like the way it reaches people is funny cuz it might sound like a thing, but then you might know me, you might hear what I'm talking about, and it's like it's just a the playing with all of it with American culture is an an endless and fascinating rabbit hole.
24:14
>> That's one of the things I love again about your music is it doesn't surprise me that you love to watch films because I feel like Bleachers albums are very cinematic and you do lean into that space of trying to create an an overarching feeling that you get from multiple artistic experiences.
24:25
It's not just a listening thing.
24:27
It's like if I press play on the van, I can get a sense of the wheels turning and what is going on.
24:33
I feel like you you really strive for that.
24:35
I just Yeah, I kind of see I I I need to be somewhere to write something, you know, like in a van, walking, thinking, you'll at a restaurant.
24:44
Like there there is a there is a Yeah, you're very situational with your writing.
24:49
>> I like I I I don't have to, but I I just access something when I'm like telegraphing from a place. I don't know what.
24:59
Yeah, but it's great though because like I said, when you press play on the album, I feel like I'm literally on a journey and this is what you've done.
25:04
You've created five ways into the van and we do go through these key human touchstones of your life that are very universal.
25:11
Um you talked about dirty wedding dress and we talked a little bit about that online. I I I love that song.
25:15
I love how granular it is and how specific it is and how unafraid you are to open the door to that and just let it exist as art.
25:23
And I think it's really cool.
25:23
What was it like to write and and like, you know, I've I've met your wife. She's super lovely.
25:28
Like what's it like when you play those songs to her and she she knows what she signed up for. You're a writer.
25:31
You're going to write songs about your life.
25:33
Like how is that balance between kind of like expressing yourself and your truth versus the things that are obviously very important to you which should remain Well, it's pretty easy for me because I because like and I'm like a pretty private person.
25:47
So to me it's very simple.
25:47
It's like if there's a if there's a feeling that is worth expressing then I'll then I'll tell the story to get to that feeling, but not intimately.
25:57
So it's like So like that song dirty wedding dress, what it's about first of all it's about me.
26:01
I'll I'll say everything.
26:01
About something going on in my soul, I will just spill it. That's mine to spill.
26:06
But if but when it gets when it has to do with other people, like dirty wedding dress, it was like the song is not about my wedding.
26:11
The song is not about um that moment.
26:16
The song is about a barrier between the people who know and love you, my friends, my family, my audience and the others who are very transient and want a piece of your soul, but really shouldn't get it.
26:29
That's what the song is about.
26:31
Um I've written a lot of love songs, but that experience of getting married and having this you know, literally the people I love most of my life and then a crowd of people outside who who obviously couldn't couldn't care less about me. Uh it was powerful.
26:45
I knew I'd write about it and it it turned into kind of a bit of a funny snarky thing, but and it but it's like you know, I'm not spilling the details of what happened at my wedding.
26:55
I'm talking about the feeling of who in this moment in time, like we're talking about before when we're trying to break through to the next phase of humanity.
27:02
In a in a way with dignity, who gets who gets access? Who gets access? Who gets access?
27:06
Because I don't I don't I reject the idea that everyone gets access to everyone. It's ridiculous.
27:13
Unless someone's making our laws.
27:13
But if you're then that's for everyone.
27:15
But if you're an artist or if you're someone who's offering something, you're out there looking for your people, period. End of story. Nothing else.
27:23
You are shooting messages in bottles out into the world, not for everyone, but just to find that one person.
27:28
Just like in high school, you get there, you feel like you are not seen by anyone.
27:34
You feel like you're the only person that's ever existed on Earth.
27:38
There's all these people that just look like the kind of people that might want to punch you in the face.
27:41
And then you just see in the distance one person.
27:43
And maybe it's the shirt they're wearing.
27:45
Maybe it's the way they're wearing their hair.
27:46
Maybe it's just the look in their eyes.
27:47
For me it was this guy Pete who had this tattoo that I was like, "Oh, we might connect." And you find each other. Right?
27:55
And that is what it is to be an artist and tour.
27:58
I'm just looking for my people.
28:00
And that was the point of that song. It's beyond.
28:03
It's one of my favorite songs on the record for all the reasons you >> funny, too.
28:06
I just you know, and then I get a little silly about sometimes.
28:08
Like whether it's like people I've met in the press or here and there who like pick at weird things. Not not naming names. It's not a roast.
28:15
It's about >> know who they are. I don't know. I don't know.
28:19
But it's just about the experience of being me where sometimes >> know. You would? Oh, Is it about me? >> No, of course not.
28:26
>> [laughter] >> Or is it?
28:29
You would because No, just just the experience of It's a funny thing.
28:33
It's not even anyone's fault.
28:34
Sharing deep intimate things about your soul and your life and then then becoming like weird facts that can just be like Yeah.
28:42
>> That's why I like being in conversation with my audience. They know the context. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:45
It's also um, it's also the perfect way to, uh, bring it back to what's really truly important, which is this idea of sharing these thoughts and these emotions and these life experiences for people in the room who are looking to feel less alone.
29:01
Who, I've never asked you this, really did that for you at formative moments in your life?
29:05
Who made you feel less alone?
29:08
Probably the biggest one, because of the time in my life it was, would be John Darnielle from the Mountain Goats. Mhm.
29:14
Cuz I got I got The Sunset Tree and Trans Music and This Year and You and Your Memory at the perfect time in my life, like when I needed it the most.
29:26
Um, and I always thought with him, you know, he tells a lot of stories of depression, domestic abuse, you know, like stepfather launched his glass across the room, uh, my mother and I dashed upstairs to take cover, leaning close to my little record player on the floor, I guess this is what the volume knob's for.
29:39
You know, like not my experience at all, but his honesty I felt so seen and I felt like, uh, but that I got that, you know, I was 18, 19 or I lost my sister when I was 18, which which completely altered the course of my life, I think.
29:57
When I was 21 that album came out, 20 somewhere in there, and it was just a magical time for me to hear someone, uh, lay it all the out there uh, in the most gruesome way and still act like there was a path path forward.
30:09
I mean, This Year, where they're, you know, I'm going to make it through this year if it kills me, one of the greatest lines ever written. Yeah, yeah.
30:16
Where is music, um, at its most valuable for you during times of sadness?
30:18
Like, how do you lean into, do you use music in order to unlock emotion that maybe be a little harder to to find? Yeah, oh, yeah. Um, Okay.
30:26
it usually just comes from other people's honesty or other people's pain.
30:31
You know, I don't necessarily connect well if I hear my story, if I hear a mirror, oh, Why that, that's not what does it for me.
30:41
It's just hearing someone going through something and feeling like uh like I'm part of some kind of continuum of human beings and not just like floating along.
30:51
I really for me it's always it always really gets me when it's it's never like very rarely is it like the most intimate softest moments.
30:59
It's often the moments where the band is trying to strive to the top of the mountain. >> Mhm.
31:03
It's like Middle East Blood. Mhm. You know that song? Yeah. Yeah.
31:11
Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na Like I'm done.
31:16
Or like you know No Cars Go.
31:18
Like when it's like Little Babies Let's Go and then they drop it on you I'm over.
31:22
Yeah, I get that from like Like I just put Refused Shape of Punk.
31:29
Oh, I'm >> I'm obsessed with that album right now.
31:31
Let's spend the rest of the conversation just talking about that record.
31:33
But just you know the obvious moment Get ice cream. It's like nothing. >> never die.
31:39
I mean that's a perfect album.
31:41
But but that that that kind of stuff that I grew up on really sends me going.
31:45
But you know what actually really gets me going like that kind of like threat of tension, suicide, anxiety like doesn't actually blow up.
31:52
It's just like Or literally suicide.
31:54
Yo literally yo not killing yourself the band suicide yeah. >> yeah.
31:58
Like where it's like you know like that's why I love Arps so much.
32:01
Depeche Mode does that great.
32:01
They get a little more cinematic.
32:03
But anything that's just like um I I'm always I'm always finding out with the Bleachers band too it's like let's be on that Yeah, you very rarely actually tip it over the edge.
32:14
Yeah, like but let's let's dance on the edge like tipping it over the edge is it's almost easy. Anyone could Yeah.
32:19
Anyone could just say it and go and you're like break everything.
32:23
It's like can we live on the precipice >> on the edge heighten the anxiety and emotion to a point uh that is almost unbearable.
32:34
[laughter] Is is is what I I know it makes total sense.
32:37
I love discovering new things about bands that I already love and about people I love and and that's >> No, I want that place. We talk about it. >> Yeah.
32:44
>> it's it's Yeah, it's like the image in my head is like So I'm like Yeah, it's like a cliff and there's like a So many memories of Bleachers shows now coming to mind of those moments where I feel like you're going to go and take us there and then you just don't.
32:54
You just live on the edge and then you pull us back. >> Yeah.
32:59
And somehow you land in a different way.
33:00
You get to work on albums that go on on to find life in front of 200,000 people at Coachella on the main stage as just one example of many and then you get to go and work on this beautiful precious thing which is about to play Madison Square Garden as a bonafide arena band and will headline other festivals in their own way.
33:15
Um but has gone on a different journey, you know, and it is like a refused journey in a sense.
33:21
It's like one great experience after another after another.
33:23
What does it tell you about the speed of success versus the importance of holding the line in achieving it in your own way and are both valid?
33:30
>> Oh, there's only holding the line. Period. End of story.
33:33
And and and anyone in that example is is is is everywhere. You know what I mean?
33:39
That that's not like you don't want it too quickly.
33:42
You'll you'll you know, like I mean you you brought up Sabrina.
33:46
made many full-length albums.
33:46
She You know what I mean? Many many Yeah.
33:51
>> You look at what happened with Charlie brought up Slater, people like that. It's like Mhm.
33:53
It It's Trust me, I was there and I was mad and I wanted it.
33:57
I was 16 watching I want to be vague. It was 18. I want to be vague. I was 21. I want to be vague.
34:04
What the does everyone care about the Strokes? these guys.
34:09
They're so [laughter] good. these guys. They're so good. I know. I wasn't ready.
34:13
I wasn't ready because I was Yeah.
34:13
I was putting it all together.
34:18
And what it leaves you with is a great gift.
34:20
There's a lot of things that frustrated frustrated me that I now see as an amazing gift.
34:23
First of all, those years of honing it, um doing it the way I wanted to do it and then leaving all these openings for people but explaining that it was this and also this funny thing you kind of brought up is happening with Bleachers where it's like Bleachers because of my production work something that used to frustrate me now I think is really beautiful has like it's bizarre how big the band is and still feels like a secret. Yeah. Um That's the dream.
34:49
It's kind of a blessing cuz it's like you know there's just in the inherent nature of some of the other records I make there's going to be this sort of like larger mainstream people or that's like oh that's the guy that does like I am and then there's going to be like three people in that room like you don't know Bleachers?
35:03
And it's like that is so um Yeah. I don't know.
35:06
It's it's it's a it's become a really beautiful thing uh because they're so artistically separate but but they're the same to me cuz it all happens at once.
35:16
And in the past I tried to in interviews create more of a separation and it's just not true.
35:20
Like everything's happening same time. Yeah, it's true.
35:24
When we first start talking about the two there would be a sense of like you know we'll This is this and this is this.
35:28
We'll get to that but let's talk about this and then we'll get to that.
35:30
That was that was me trying to like you know I think something happened when when Bleachers reached a certain level I kind of chilled the out on trying to explain everything everyone.
35:38
Isn't it about maturity as well?
35:38
You get to a certain point in your life if you're lucky enough to keep going where where you certain just naturally starts to fall away a bit.
35:44
Yes but I think it's more be feeling seen.
35:46
You know like um and I felt this way with production stuff too.
35:51
production stuff too. You know I I felt like I used to really have to just explain what I was interested in my style but then now I feel like some of the vastly different albums I've been working on they just tell the story themselves and then Bleachers yeah like
36:03
something you know at some point you turn around and you're like this this culture and these people here this is so beautiful and it's so it's just expanding and deepening at the same time and I it's a huge theme on this album of just like stopping to signal to to the transient people and just utter focus. But yeah when you first met
36:21
But yeah when you first met me I think I was more like this This this is this this is this like let's draw a line and it's just not true and I think it was annoying.
36:28
Well, I understand it though.
36:30
There was an interesting transition point where you went from, you know, having this kind of runaway success with Fun, which was short-lived but certainly holds its place in terms of like, oh, proof of concept, I can be a part of something really big.
36:40
That's how I always took it as.
36:42
To then getting into the studio while simultaneously figuring out where your voice was with Bleachers.
36:45
Then all of a sudden your production work starts to happen.
36:47
And Bleachers is all of is always going to take more time.
36:50
Just the nature of what you're creating is always going to take more time. So, it's like, hang on.
36:55
People know me for this but it will dissipate. This is happening. Yeah.
36:56
And this is kind of here.
36:58
How do I drag this thing out?
37:01
>> and how do I tell this?
37:01
And I'm also on tour that whole time.
37:05
I I think I think I've always There's always been a you know, once again, it's about feeling seen.
37:09
I think when, you know, now I feel so seen by the people who love albums I produce.
37:13
People are seen by the Bleachers people and they're and and then whatever bleed there is or isn't between.
37:18
But I think in the past I felt so you know, it's very hard for people to catch up to where you're at because they know what you've done.
37:23
You are you know, you make an album.
37:26
By the time people get it um you're beyond it. Yeah.
37:32
>> You know, so you have to give people some grace experiencing you.
37:35
You have to give people some time to put it all together.
37:39
You can't just cuz it's not a simple story.
37:41
You know, if it's a simple story, this is Jim.
37:42
He plays a blue guitar and he sings songs about going on hot air balloons. You're like, okay.
37:47
You know, if you're going to weave something that is a bit more complicated and super nuanced and touches all these different really hot buttons, you know, like >> Yeah.
37:58
it takes some time for people to understand what your uh what your purpose is.
38:04
Is there a song on this album that kind of as we as you kind of touch on these human experiences and the evolution of you as a person and as a as a creative person?
38:11
Is there a song on this record that kind of touches on that, that speaks to the journey of the band the most and and and kind of acknowledges the time and the grace that that you've that you've either had to or then decided to take in order to become your best selves? Yeah.
38:25
There's different corners of that.
38:27
There's a song called Take You Out Tonight, which is a a lot sort of a funny love song about being exhausted by the world, but just saying that, you know, man, you look so good.
38:36
I'm I'm taking you out tonight even though I hate going out there. [laughter] Yeah, yeah.
38:40
It was It was It was a time when like a lot of people were like It comes and goes like, you know, kind of like taking pictures of your own wife and I just wanted to stay in, but I'm also still just a person who was like, I want to take you out and show you off as weird as my life in that area has become.
38:51
So, I kind of It was just an interesting prompt for me to write, but the way we recorded it was just so Bleachers that um it's just one of those songs where you just sort of pan back and you're like, that's just that's just us, you know?
39:04
The whole album is, but you know, there's these moments where it's like, okay, I'm playing with darker tones here or this is more acoustic or this is bigger production and and I'm and I'm drawing on the past of of inspiration and pulling it towards the future, but it's only Take You Out as just like, I don't know how the the you get that other than just a band spending, you know, like a six-way marriage basically. That's how you get that.
39:25
Yeah, the camaraderie and the chemistry of the The lived life, man.
39:28
>> Yeah, you can hear it.
39:28
The parts of life that aren't fun, the parts of life that are weird, being with people when, you know, being in this group of people where like your hands are like kind of all in no matter what happens.
39:38
And there's this pact that no one no one uh leaves anyone behind, no matter what's going on. You can hate someone.
39:45
Someone could be heartbroken.
39:47
Someone could be so pissed.
39:47
Someone could be so annoying, but you are moving as a unit.
39:49
Yeah, but then that in itself is a dream is a wistful dream and you know it because you touch on it at the end of the song of the end of the album, you touch on it on ELS.
39:59
You know that as much as you want this band to be the unified experience of all time that life and somewhere along the line something's going to occur and someone's going to decide to leave or something's going to happen or whatever.
40:09
And not to be too sort of dramatic or morose about it, but but that intention is beautiful, but you know, but in a weird you know, But in a weird way.
40:17
That's why I called the tour Bleachers Forever.
40:20
The the the what has been created because of of that moment is so eternal even though it will end that it is forever in a strange way.
40:28
So it's like it there it's it's happening at the same time.
40:33
Like there is like an eternalness that I feel only um sometimes and when I feel it I really stay there. It's also a great match.
40:42
>> [laughter] >> I'm so wearing a Bleachers Forever t-shirt.
40:45
It's a strong It's a strong fan statement.
40:48
>> You know what I want to do?
40:48
Oh wait, I unplugged myself.
40:50
I don't think it matters, but um You brought up Up There at the ELS. Yeah.
40:55
>> I really want to do I got to get it together, but like that place is such a specific like it's just like my life.
40:59
I just live there and and all the records I make there. >> it.
41:03
I Every time I walk past it I just want to knock on the door and ask if Jackson >> You should.
41:06
No, I shouldn't cuz you're probably making a record with someone under high levels of secrecy. It's like, "Zane's here.
41:11
He just happens to have a really loud mic at Apple." >> Yeah. Just walk on in. >> Zane's here. He's live. He's live.
41:16
[laughter] He totally I I want to I want at some point get everyone together and the band and all the records I've made there and like get everyone on the roof and just do some sort of like like tape performance of the whole thing and just just just celebrate those like just show what was what happened there and like, you know, do all the talking between and whatever, but like I got to do something like that. It's buzzing in me. It's a really cool idea.
41:38
>> call it Up There at the ELS.
41:39
>> Yeah, it's a it's a really cool idea for a um a series, you know, or or even just a one-off documentary where you just get everyone >> like we're like last waltz is like one thing. >> Yeah, just one thing.
41:50
>> played during COVID, you know, it started, you know, it was recorded there, but during COVID I I wanted to like that album was Take the Sadness Out of Saturday Night.
41:56
I wanted to play some stuff, so I got St.
41:58
Vincent came up on the roof and and Springsteen came up on the roof.
42:01
And that I was really delicate about cuz it's like I'm not getting this guy sick.
42:05
So we were like Far away on the roof.
42:08
>> [snorts] >> I was like >> Thanks for the tacos [laughter] and COVID.
42:12
I'll give my cousin COVID.
42:12
I'm not giving anything away.
42:13
[laughter] Um, so you know we're up there and and we're on the roof but we're feeding everything into the studio and it was just beautiful and it that that's a project I got to I got to get together at some point because the story of what happens there has not be told and cannot be told.
42:27
It would be about celebrating not necessarily telling it but it's so un documented, unseen, unknown other than the people who are there you you cuz cuz no one's phone is out, no one's barely getting but but no we're doing things in every album I've ever made has happened right in this tiny little room which I've kind of recreated in my tour set now and it's just bizarre and and kind of mythical to me.
42:54
Oh yeah, when you step foot in it you know why.
42:55
It's um And the funny thing is it's it's it's a new generation of it so I think upstairs where I work was supposed to be Jimi Hendrix's apartment and then became the space that D'Angelo fell in love with and did Voodoo up there.
43:08
It's not the classic studios as those of you know it as those days.
43:09
And then the past decade that I've moved in has been just a really special stretch of music starting with I think Strange Desire, Melodrama, St.
43:21
Vincent's Masseduction was the first three up there and then kind of everything since.
43:27
Yeah, and it's such an interesting um generation of artists that have really I mean I've said this so many times you know it's pre-Lorde and post-Lorde.
43:34
I really stand by that not just for the like you know uh Kiwiness of it all.
43:40
You know there's there's there's pop music before that first album and there's pop music after that album you know it changed everything in my opinion.
43:46
Um, you know and and since then we're just hearing you know music in all different shapes and ways and forms and I just love how you're at the center of it all man like it's it's it's really like it's it's a special gift you have >> upstairs there and it's like that's what's so cool about it.
43:59
You've seen it it's I mean it's not even like a studio it's like a little apartment practically and when things are happening up there it's you know it's like anything with songwriting.
44:09
It's like or or production.
44:10
It's nice to be praying at something bigger, whether it's the gods of songwriting or the gods of production or or the gods of that space, you know?
44:19
And it it's just it's good to to feel um yeah, like at the altar of something, you know? I do. Bleach is forever, baby.
44:33
>> [snorts] >> What was the thing I say that to believe in America is to be bombarded by others' ideals?