0:00
People are dating way less.
Search this video
0:00
People are spending way more time alone.
0:01
It's social risk aversion.
0:04
I think people are afraid of rejection.
0:06
They're afraid of being perceived as weird, as cringeworthy.
0:11
>> What do you think causing that anxiety? >> Being rejected sucks.
0:13
And it's hard to like pierce that film and just do it.
0:18
How you actually find the people who are meant to be your friends is by accepting that like the fact that not everyone likes you is a good thing because it means that you have enough of a personality that people can react against that.
0:28
basically be yourself because some people are going to hate you, some people are going to love you.
0:32
>> I think part of is just growing up.
0:32
It's important to not confuse like temporary problems that basically stem from needing to grow up and needing to like stop being 17 and start being 23 with like basically diagnosible mental health conditions.
0:44
Nobody is the best version of themselves when they're 17.
0:46
And like you can always grow up.
0:52
My guest today is Emma Camp, the journalist and senior newsletter editor at the Wall Street Journal's Free Expression section, where she writes daily commentary and produces short form video on American culture, politics, economics, and other issues.
1:15
Emma, welcome to Infinite Loops.
1:15
Um, when I saw your video on rent control not being the greatest thing in the world, I I was fascinated for a couple of reasons.
1:27
Uh, like as an old that is sort of like saying the sky is blue or a variety of those things, but essentially you blew up with that video.
1:41
But you're primarily, would you say, or >> Yeah.
1:44
Yeah, I would definitely say that. Which do you enjoy more? >> I enjoy writing more.
1:47
Um, I've like writing is the only thing I've ever been really good at.
1:53
It's the only thing I've ever really wanted to do.
1:54
Like I have the very stereotypical writer background, which is like I was scribbling stories and notebooks when I was 8 years old.
2:03
But that but that's just 100% true.
2:05
I went to a a public fine arts magnet school in Alabama for creative writing.
2:11
like it was like LaGuardia but in Alabama like it's the it's it's I was an English major like just what I've done.
2:17
Um but as it turns out I'm pretty good at making videos.
2:20
Um I guess some years of community theater paid off. I don't know.
2:25
I just I uh I have the right vibe on camera I guess.
2:31
And and I do enjoy So with writing I'm often thinking about exploring ideas in a very like deep rich way.
2:36
And videos I feel like use the other side of my argumentative brain which is how can I make a point as simply as possible and I have you know a minute to do it but really I have half a second to do it because if you don't get the hook right people just keep scrolling.
2:54
So, um, what has the reaction been like?
2:58
And and by kind of generation, I mentioned I saw I'm like, well, duh.
3:04
But was your generation more shocked or really? I I didn't know that. >> I I don't know.
3:14
I mean, I can't really tell how old people are uh based on their uh very tiny profile photos.
3:20
I'm not like taking stock of this.
3:23
So I mean I think there are some generational stereotypes which is people who are old enough to remember the cold war and like remember how awful communism was or like yes obviously Soviet style uh controlling of our economy having these like super intense uh rent control regimes obviously that's not going to work because it never works.
3:46
Um, and I think for younger people there can be a tendency to assume that this just hasn't been tried yet and to sort of forget the lessons of the past, which is no, we did try it and it didn't work.
3:56
Um, and I think there's just some like partisan sorting as well where it's sort of a a leftcoded thing to be in support of rent control now.
4:06
Um, and so young people are slightly more left-leaning.
4:10
So there's a little there's a little bit of that, but I haven't been think I don't know.
4:13
This sounds strange to say, but I found that for me be doing the work that I do, it makes the most sense for me to just do my thing and put it out there and not have Twitter on my th my phone and not really think that much about how people are reacting to it.
4:33
You know, you you bring up politics and I mentioned I read all your work and and you seem to me to be a very well-grounded, philosophical, highly literate person >> and and you wrote uh I think your article was called the manosphere and it was about the various political divides and I've always thought you know it's a circle right when you go further and further to
5:01
the extreme part you you go from socialism to communism and then you get to fascism and it it's more of a circle and you know the old leftright distinctions as you probably know come from the uh France before the revolution the supporters of the kings sat on the right and the supporters of the revolution sat on the left and I think that you know labels are dangerous because you Was it Wickinstein? When you label
5:31
When you label me, you negate me.
5:34
And I think that those old labels probably don't work anymore.
5:39
What would you think about newer labels like uh control verse freedom? >> Yeah.
5:46
I I don't like to label myself.
5:48
This is often something I'm asked.
5:48
I'm like, I don't like I don't like labels.
5:52
I don't because I I think when you adopt a label, you implicitly sign on to this slate of viewpoints on different policy issues.
6:03
And you know, there are some labels where I agree with more of the stock policy positions than others, but none enough that I feel comfortable enough to like hitch my wagon to that ideology. And I agree with you.
6:13
I I think the leftright dichotomy is not useful for people with a more sort of civil libertarian orientation. There I go using labels.
6:26
It's it's it is very kind of small L li libertarian of me to think of it this way.
6:30
But I think it's so much more revealing where someone is on the authoritarian versus, you know, control versus freedom axis and the left right axis because it it fundamentally is is a personality feature.
6:43
Like I think people kind of have either authoritarian personalities or small L libertarian personalities, moderate personalities.
6:52
personalities. Like are you the kind of person who has whatever set of beliefs you have and thinks that the government really should try to coersse people into living your prescribed best life for them or are you the kind of person who's
7:06
willing to live and let live and you know let people not not have the government control people's lives as much and and so because of that I think people on the center left and center right have far more in common than they do at the extreme fringes of their quote unquote sides. >> Yeah. I think that, you know, the >> Yeah.
7:21
I think that, you know, the average American, right, is kind of a go along to get along type person.
7:26
And if you go I I always look at New York as not real America.
7:32
Uh and at my old firm, I was in asset management and every time I would have to travel, I would say to my wife, I'm going to real America.
7:39
And and the differences were pretty profound.
7:44
I mean, places like Mississippi, Alabama, like I met the nicest people who I really didn't expect to like because, you know, I was steeped in New York and all of the ways that New York thinks and does things.
8:00
Um, have you found that moving to first DC and then New York City?
8:08
>> Yeah, I think I disagree with you a little bit that New York isn't real America.
8:11
I think every part of America is just as real as any other part of America.
8:16
And you know, being from I'm from Alabama.
8:19
I'm from kind of a smallalish ex-urban town outside of Birmingham, like the people I grew up around are just as real as the people in New York.
8:28
And sometimes for me, you know, uh maybe this shows that I'm in this sort of murky, not super politically categorizable area, but like the sort of more conservative, very ma kind of stock person that you find in Alabama.
8:42
I find their worldview just as baffling in many ways as the most strident mom donny socialist.
8:46
Like I'm not I don't really feel fully at home in either place.
8:51
And I think they're they are just as legitimate and just as baddy in their own ways.
8:58
I mean, red state level politics are just as crazy as New York City city level politics. >> Yeah.
9:04
And and I've always thought that if you could imply all of my beliefs from hearing one of them, then I am brain dead and I have succumbed to the party line.
9:19
And that is this thing that really concerns me as one who lived in a different world pre- internet etc.
9:26
Uh and maybe it was the cold war but the parties there wasn't really an ounce of difference between them on cold war strategy but when the Berlin wall fell the Soviets fell we started to see this parting of the ways.
9:48
What do you think like if I was going to say and again here we go labeling but younger people verse older people and in your piece you were talking about the different political opinions of older people verse younger people talk a bit about that in terms of >> um I mean it's it's very hard to make broad generalizations about groups with millions of people.
10:13
I think there is somewhat of a misconception that younger men are more right-wing than, you know, Gen Z men are more right-wing than millennial men or even boomer men, depending on who you ask.
10:24
As as far as I've been able to tell, looking at a couple surveys, like younger men are more leftwing than older men, that in the same younger women are more leftwing than older women.
10:35
Like generally speaking, it shouldn't be surprising that younger people are slightly more leftwing than older people.
10:39
this matches with our long-standing cultural stereotypes.
10:43
So, in many ways, that's good news because it's like, okay, this current cohort of young people is not unique.
10:49
They're sort of like all other humans before them.
10:52
I I am concerned by the increasing popularity of socialism across all groups of people in America.
11:00
Um, but especially younger people because I I think what's happened here is that a lot of upandcoming socialists are very good communicators and they're very good at offering kind of simple utopian seeming solutions to what are often very real problems.
11:14
The issue is that the solutions they're offering we know will just make the problem worse.
11:22
So like something like housing is a great example.
11:24
It is 100% true that we have a housing short we have a huge housing shortage in this country.
11:27
It is way too expensive to be able to rent an apartment.
11:31
So many young people can't afford to move out of their parents' houses.
11:34
Definitely can't afford to buy a home of their own.
11:37
The average age of first-time home ownership is inching higher and higher and higher.
11:42
And this is like housing is one of the biggest purchases that people make.
11:45
Like it is this huge problem if you can't afford a place to live.
11:49
Um and the socialist answer is like the reason why we have this problem is because of greed.
11:54
It's because of greedy landlords.
11:55
It's because of greedy developers and what we need to do is stop them from charging you so much and then you'll be able to afford a place to live when of course the problem is a housing shortage.
12:04
And so you can artificially lower the prices as much as you want and you will not solve the underlying problem that we have you know nine houses for every 10 people or whatever the number is like that that cannot erase the shortage and the solution is to build more housing.
12:21
And you know, on that ring control video where I was sort of making this very basic ecom 101 argument, I saw people in the comments who were like, "Oh, what?
12:29
So you're you want us to to choose the interests of big companies over people?"
12:35
And I'm like, "Okay, so who builds houses?
12:37
If we need to build more housing, yes, we need to make the environment friendly for the companies who build housing."
12:44
Like the people who build housing are housing developers.
12:48
And if your primary interest is doing whatever will screw over housing developers, you will not get more housing.
12:53
And so in this case, the interests of housing developers are the same as the interests of American people who need more affordable housing.
13:00
And so if if your primary goal is just like making big businesses angry because you have a the sense that like wealth is bad, you end up creating environments that hurt less wealthy people. Yeah.
13:14
And let's let's drill down on the wealth is bad, right?
13:20
Um the the real uh quote is the love of money is the root of all evil, not the not money is the root of all evil.
13:33
Are these educational issues?
13:33
Are these societal issues?
13:36
or I mean like if you if I was going to appoint you the ZAR of uh more housing obviously I think I know what you'd do but how would you communicate that in a way because what I love about you is your communication style when I watched your video I'm just like oh she's going to be a big big star because you you really in that was 60 seconds I how long was it a I I watched it on Twitter and I'm like, "Oh, finally."
14:10
Um, so on the one hand, some people say, "Well, presentation, like that's meaningless."
14:17
I think in our era, it's kind of everything.
14:20
So, what would you build out to persuade people?
14:28
Not not to just say obviously, you know, the big developers are going to be the ones to build that housing, but what would be what would you think about take me through you uh blocking out a video on trying to persuade people this is really the solution?
14:43
I mean, I I think I would do that same kind of basic logical argument because I think people I I like to think that people can be persuaded with facts.
14:52
Um, certainly with kind of intuitive arguments and so this is why I presented the rent control issue from by by focusing on the housing shortage because I think everybody can understand, okay, if we do not we literally do not have enough apartments for the number of people who want to live in New York City, that's going to cause issues.
15:12
And I don't even have to bust out a supply demand graph for people to intuitively get that.
15:16
It's like, okay, we need to build more housing.
15:19
Um, and going from there, you know, I you can make a more nuanced argument because sometimes people say, oh well, why doesn't the government build housing?
15:25
build housing? It's like well when the government attempts to build housing it takes way longer and it costs way more than when the private sector builds housing largely because when the government gets money involved in things then the unions get involved and you
15:38
know uh legislators can place require like these really stringent requirements on the apartments built with public money and so it just ends up costing much more because there are all of these regulatory hurdles that private sector builders don't have to face. Right. Right. Right. There's also that.
15:53
Um, and if our primary goal is fixing the housing shortage, we should focus on allowing housing to be built as quickly as possible.
16:02
And that also means getting rid of some regulations that make it hard to do that.
16:06
Whether that's height requ uh height, you know, limits or single or having um I'm I'm not being the most articulate right now, but there uh you can only build an apartment of a certain number of floors if you're going to have one stairwell, which is sort of a fire safety requirement, but it ends up keeping a bunch of houses from being built that would have been built otherwise.
16:28
Um on and on and on and on.
16:31
And it's like this is how like if the the core problem is a housing shortage, here's how we build as much housing as quickly as possible.
16:36
Um and hopefully that would work.
16:38
And I I think to your your earlier point, it feels very counterintuitive um often times to make like a moral case for why rich people should be allowed to exist.
16:50
Like I even just saying that I realize that people are going to be like, "What is wrong with this person?
16:55
She just loves billionaires."
16:55
And like I I don't have to be honly romantic view of like you know the the ultra wealthy.
17:03
But the thing is like when we have free markets in which people are incentivized by the possibility of getting wealthy to technologically innovate to make better products.
17:13
I mean take something like Amazon, right?
17:14
Like Jeff Bezos isn't so well I I let me let me go back a little bit.
17:19
I think this comes from a fixed pie mentality. Yes.
17:21
this idea that if someone has more than someone else, it's because they took more than their fair share.
17:28
>> Um, when in reality, often times someone has more than someone else because they made the buy the pie bigger for everyone. So, Amazon, right?
17:33
Jeff Bezos is incredibly wealthy, but he created a product that people love.
17:39
Most Americans are Amazon Prime subscribers.
17:41
Like I love that if I need something, I can press a couple buttons on my phone and it'll show up at my door the next day cheaply and I didn't have to go to the store.
17:55
Like people, you know, there there's a lot of sort of consternation about whether Amazon is bad or not, but people voting with their behavior love Amazon.
18:05
And if Jeff Bezos could not have gotten wealthy from that, he wouldn't have created this product.
18:08
And so I would much rather live in in a world like America where like yes the mo the there is increasing inequality but we but the floor for people's income is also getting higher.
18:21
So I would much rather live in a world in which the rich are richer and the poor are also richer than live in a world in which there's less inequality.
18:29
The rich are poorer but the poor are also poorer. Yeah.
18:32
And and I think a lot of leftists make these sort of equality based arguments.
18:38
They focus on inequality to hide the fact that free markets have actually improved the lives for the worst off Americans.
18:48
>> And you know, equality, right?
18:48
So equality of opportunity is one thing.
18:54
Equality of outcome, same word, right?
18:57
But the equality of outcome we've seen, we have hundreds of years of thousands really if you look at the kings too uh of that not being the case.
19:07
I mean literally for most of human history, the average conditions for the average human have been horrible. They've been atrocious. >> Oh, absolutely.
19:19
I I was just starting to read I got an early copy of um a KO fellow wrote a book called the I think it's called the bad old days and it's about >> Oh, amazing.
19:28
Well, I was starting to read that book on my um e-reader uh my my cheaply produced e-reader the size of a credit card uh on the subway here and yeah, she talks about how atrocious the lives of the average person used to be.
19:43
And and this is why I'm so passionate about free markets um at a time where so few people are because I'm an optimist.
19:51
And when you look at how you know a hundred years ago even the life of the average person on earth even the life of the average American was just horrendous when you compare it to today.
20:01
I mean, when you look at how like the vast vast vast majority of people lived in like crushing menial poverty and very few humans today live at that level of poverty.
20:12
Um, how did we go from like 95% of all humans living in, you know, $2 a day level poverty to, you know, something like 15 or 20%.
20:20
Free markets, technological innovation, like that's how we, you know, huge advancements in medicine. That's how we got there.
20:27
And if we've done it before, then we can use those same tools to do it again and continue improving people's lives.
20:35
>> Howard Bloom uh in his book on helping capitalism with better PR um actually it's it's a very thoughtful book about how to reorient people around capitalism.
20:48
But in the beginning of his book, he essentially says, "Every major religion, everyone promised the promised land, land of milk and honey."
20:56
And he goes, "I don't care which religion you look at and we've had them for a millennium and we got nothing.
21:04
We got the case that you just made, everyone living in crushing poverty, etc."
21:10
And he goes, "Capitalism did in 300 years what none of these religions that ruled for thousands could achieve."
21:23
>> Well, okay, I'm going to push back against that because I'm not sure that major religions are promising prosperity in your earthly life, right? Like the I don't know.
21:34
I I know most about Christianity because I am a Christian.
21:38
But you know like the promises are not that if you you know if you follow Jesus you'll be super rich, >> right? Mega church, >> right? Right.
21:47
Maybe maybe some maybe something but I don't.
21:49
It's that if you follow Jesus you'll have >> you'll have paradise in the next life. Right.
21:56
It's about how do you come to terms with the suffering that you experience here on earth.
22:00
But but let's let's talk about that for a minute because religious beliefs are by their very nature unfalsifiable, right?
22:10
Trust me, you're going to have the best life after this one. We can't test that, etc.
22:17
And and then you see this religious attitude working its way into politics, right?
22:28
By that I mean they're appealing to emotion to feel.
22:33
>> I don't think that's unique to religion though.
22:35
I just think that's a feature of ideology. >> Right. Right.
22:38
And but like in in the old days when like the pope ruled all of Europe with an iron fist, it was only because he was vain that we got the printing press.
22:49
Uh if you look into the history of the printing press um he he made beautiful Bibles injeweled and basically bribed the pope because he knew the pope was uh vain about having to wear glasses when he gave his sermon.
23:08
So what what did Gutenberg do?
23:08
He he made the pope a Bible with letters that were this big so he didn't have to wear the glasses.
23:16
And so he got the church's authority for the printing presses and they didn't know what they were on leasing.
23:24
>> I mean people respond to incentives. >> Exactly. Right.
23:27
And and so my point is more along the lines of I I worry when people lose context, right?
23:38
And by that I mean I have a lot of context because of I'm 66 and I lived through a lot of that Cold War stuff and I literally watched them tear down the Berlin Wall and very familiar with the the photos of the people with the guard jumping over to escape to freedom etc.
23:58
And so I worry that the younger generation the not having the context of that here here we're going to go I I don't know if you're a fan of True Detective but life is a flat circle and and we just seem to be going around around and around again and again and again.
24:22
Eternal recurrence to good old Lii. >> Yeah.
24:25
I I'm both someone who is concerned for my generation, if I can make like such a broad claim as that, and I'm also skeptical of pronouncements that are too dire, that are too like these are going to be the people that ruin everything like like those kind of pronouncements.
24:46
I think the the sliver of this that I will agree with you is that I think there's a lot of reflexive anti-Americanism >> on the left broadly, but I think especially popular with sort of the young people most likely to be socialists.
24:57
And I I think some of that comes from the like, wow, like the Iraq war was bad, you know, the Iran war is bad, like sort of somewhat reasonable um push back against certain policy that we've had.
25:14
Um but I think the problem is when reasonable skepticism of, you know, America's choices becomes this belief that okay, well, if it says that America's bad, then it must be true.
25:27
Like it almost becomes this conspiracy level thinking of, you know, everything that I hear that's good about America is bad evil imperialist propaganda and everything that I hear criticizing America must be true because it's like the secret truth that they won't tell you.
25:43
And that I think is how you end up with, you know, young people who are smart enough to know better fullthroatedly endorsing terrorist groups.
25:51
It's how you get there was a trend a couple years ago.
25:52
I don't think this is representative of young people, but it was crazy that this even happened of people reading um Osama bin Laden's letter like explaining his hatred of America being like, "Oh my gosh, guys, he's so right. America is bad."
26:06
You know, leaving out the sentences where he's like, "And also America needs to be destroyed because of gay people and Jews."
26:13
um like that where there's this sort of like in the same way that it's reasonable to criticize like brain deadad reflexive patriotism >> that does not you know consider critically things that our nation has done.
26:28
It is equally ridiculous to have this like brain deadad anti-atriotism and in many and in some ways that they're both equally destructive >> but again requires so much nuance right because I think the short form videos I your your longer works I allow you to elaborate much more.
26:51
Another one of the things you talk about a lot which I really resonate with is uh that it seems that risk aversion >> Yes. >> is rampant. >> Yes.
27:05
I will talk about this because I have a book about it coming out. >> I know.
27:07
I know cuz I think you're really on to something there. >> Thank you.
27:10
So, you know, when you look at all of these kind of discreet trends among people in their 20s, who's who's mostly what I'm thinking about when I say Gen Z, because teenagers are a whole other ball game, and most Genzers are adults, I think to continue rambling in my preface, a lot of people say Gen Z when they mean like 14y olds, right?
27:30
>> But the actual age band is basically people who are like 29 to like 17, right?
27:36
like it's mostly teenagers at this point or sorry, mostly young adults at this point.
27:42
>> Um, but you know, you look at these discrete trends, people are dating way less, people are spending way more time alone, people aren't getting married as much, you know, people aren't drinking as much.
27:52
Like, what unites, you know, everybody is using AI therapists, everybody is self- diagnosing themselves with ADHD?
28:01
like what unites these these trends?
28:05
And I was thinking about this and it was like it's social risk aversion.
28:10
I think people are afraid of rejection.
28:14
They're afraid of being perceived as weird, as cringeworthy.
28:19
They're afraid of being judged by other people.
28:21
I think I I I don't want to blame too much of it on the on the phones because I think that's far too simplistic.
28:26
But, you know, the threat of like anything embarrassing you might do can be recorded, right?
28:31
Whether that's, you know, you send a girl some messages on Tinder and she thinks they're stupid and she takes screenshots of them and she posts about them on Instagram or even just like sends them to her friends or like something dumb you do at a party, there's a photo taken of it.
28:45
Or even something like you go to a party, a college party, and you're 18 and you're drinking and someone takes a video or a photo of it and then you know you get kicked off the track and field team or whatever it is.
28:57
like this kind of digital ponopticon I think causes people to sort of put their hackles up.
29:01
Um, and I think this kind of temperamental trepidation is keeping people from living rich full connected lives.
29:12
Like if you're so afraid that someone will think you're weird if you invite them to the party you're going to have or if you ask them to get lunch with you or if you you know like it it ends up meaning that you don't take the opportunities for connection.
29:29
And of course like most people aren't actually walking around with this like ready to judge view of other people.
29:36
Like this was something I had to overcome where I would be like oh I want to invite this person to this party but like well they think I'm being overly eager.
29:42
And I took somebody, I think maybe it was my boss at Reasonz, Katherine Mangawward, who was like, Emma, people love getting invited to parties.
29:49
Like, even if they can't go, no one's ever gonna be like, gosh, I can't believe she invited me to that party. What a loser.
29:55
It's like, actually, yeah, you're right.
29:57
And now I invite everyone I've ever met to every party I throw, and the vast majority of them do not come. And that's okay.
30:05
I still get pretty good numbers.
30:07
Um, you know, I'm more than willing to invite 150 people to a party because it means I get 30 that show up and a 30 person party is pretty good.
30:17
>> And I love the fact that you're doing that. Um, and that's one way.
30:19
But parenthetically, like what you're speaking about the panopticon is very true.
30:26
Like if social media was around when I was a teenager, permanently cancelled because we we didn't feel obviously no phones, no internet, no nothing.
30:40
So we got up to a lot of pretty crazy stuff.
30:46
And because we couldn't intermediate through screens, right, we did everything in person.
30:52
How did you find your friend?
30:54
Well, you drove over to his house if he didn't answer the phone and you asked his parents, "Hey, where's Greg?"
30:58
And then you went there and then you finally found your group.
31:00
But I love the idea of that you're doing a lot of the throwing of parties because that was like the norm for all of human history.
31:13
And then the pandemic came along and we get I don't want to go to that party.
31:16
I I might say something stupid or whatever.
31:23
What h Have you ever had a party that just like bombed?
31:28
>> Um h I'm going to say well h yes and no.
31:35
So my party throwing journey started when I was in my fourth year at UVA.
31:43
So this would have been right after the pandemic would have been like fall 2021, spring 2022.
31:50
and I was in a literary debating society called the Jefferson Literary and Debbing Society.
31:57
It just celebrated its bicesentennial oldest student organization at UVA. It's awesome.
32:03
Um, and it was founded in a lawn room at UVA, which were these 1820s dorm rooms designed by Thomas Jefferson himself.
32:11
It's very cool, very cool.
32:11
Um, and so the society had an endowed room and they could basically place someone in this room.
32:17
And so I was selected to be that person.
32:20
And part of the deal it's like, okay, you have you don't get to you don't have to pay rent, but in exchange you have to throw a party every Friday during the meeting so people can drink during the meeting, which they can't do because technically the room that we meet in is like university prep.
32:35
So there's some reason why we couldn't have alcohol in there.
32:36
And so I had to throw a party every Friday from like 5:00 p. m. to 2:00 a. m.
32:40
And I did that and I got the cheapest booze money could buy.
32:46
Um, Kroger had a four for $3 2 L store brand soda deal. So, I got a lot of Dr.
32:52
K, a lot of like citrus mist like type fake sodas.
33:01
Um, and I would get a handle of Dr.
33:04
James Crow's Old Crow Whiskey and Bowman's Vodka and like a 24 pack of PBR and a bag of Franzia Crisp White and a couple bags of chips and we'd have a great time. >> And then shocking. >> It was shocking. Yes.
33:19
And then after I graduated college and I got like a real person job, I was like, "Okay, I I want to keep throwing parties, but I think I'm probably a little too a little too big to continue having provisions.
33:31
Also, no ice, everything room temperature, warm, right?
33:38
Like I'm a little I can't keep doing this. This is too much."
33:40
And so at the time I was working at Reason magazine and one of my colleagues there, Peter Sudterman, is an amazing he's like a cocktail wizard.
33:48
and I was inspired by him to start making cocktails.
33:50
And so like my signature thing that's like the reason why you should come to this party is that there are very fancy craft cocktails there and they're free.
34:00
Um and so I started doing that.
34:03
But the parties when I mean they didn't bomb is like it started out with, you know, when I first moved to DC, I had some friends from college there, but most of my college friends were like a year younger.
34:13
So, not everybody had quite moved to DC yet, which everybody who attends the University of Virginia moves to DC. It's just how it works.
34:22
Um, and so, you know, I would invite like six people from church over and so like, you know, they were like hangouts more than like capital P parties and they sort of got like larger as my social circle got larger.
34:36
So, it sort of like grew over time.
34:39
I will say the closest the times I've been the most disappointed with how things have worked out have been when I've had a lot of flakers, which doesn't happen that often.
34:48
It happens more in New York.
34:50
This is my big complaint about the social scene between New York and DC is that when I have 30 people telling me that they're coming to my party in DC, 30 people show up.
35:01
>> And when I have 30 people telling me they're coming to my party in New York, 20 people show up. >> Yeah. >> And that annoys me.
35:06
It hurts my feelings when people say they're coming and they don't show up.
35:13
And the party planning app I use has a maybe function which I usually read as people who are not going to go but they don't have a good excuse and so they put maybe. And that's okay.
35:21
I understand that's how that works.
35:21
Um and I like flaking is a scourge.
35:24
Like there people should be put in the stocks for flaking in my view.
35:32
And this goes back to the I I think it's a combination of social risk aversion and the sort of therapy culture belief that you don't owe any anything to anybody and like your primary duty is to yourself >> and doing what like protects your peace and makes yourself happy. >> Very narcissistic.
35:52
>> Um which I think at its extremes it can be but I think it is this sort of like reflection of like you don't need you don't need a good reason to do what you want to do.
36:00
Um, and I think that's so backwards because you have a duty to other people.
36:06
And if you tell someone you're going to be there for them, you go like unless you are literally running like 102° fever, right? >> You have to go. And all the time.
36:16
So like last night my husband and I went out with another couple that we're friends with and we've been trying to um sort of like find a date for us to go out together for a long time.
36:25
And I got back from work and I was like, I am so tired.
36:29
I just kind of want to take a shower and like curl up on the couch and watch Slow Horses for 3 hours.
36:36
But >> great, >> I promise. Fantastic show.
36:39
Um, but we said we would do this.
36:43
Like it would be a grievous social crime for me to cancel all these people at the last minute.
36:50
Like even though I don't really want to go cuz I'm exhausted, I'll go.
36:52
So I got dressed, got back on the subway, and we went out and we had a great time.
36:57
Like this is often the things that people the thing that people who flake uh do not realize is like the you before the social event is not the same you that's at the social event.
37:08
Like every single time I'm like I can't believe I agreed to do this thing after work. I'm so tired.
37:13
And I actually get there I have a great time and I'm so glad I went and I'm like that was great. That was lovely.
37:19
So that that I think is something important for people to remember.
37:22
Yeah, I can't remember which movie it is, but uh somebody's uh talking about someone like a sherker like one of yours that says they're coming and they don't come >> and and he's like we live in a society. >> We do. We do.
37:37
And I don't, you know, I don't want to be too harsh, like I I, you know, the New York I live in Brooklyn and all of my friends live on the Upper East Side and so it's hard to get places, but you know what?
37:47
I get on the subway for an hour and a half to see my friends in the Upper East Side.
37:55
>> Come to see me in Brooklyn.
37:57
>> When you're inviting people to parties, do you intentionally try to mix it up?
38:02
Do you intentionally try to get very different personality types?
38:06
>> I think it it depends on what kind of thing I'm doing.
38:08
So, if I'm just having like a big party, I have there's a wonderful app called Party Full, which is how I invite everybody.
38:14
And I just check this box that's invite all previous guests.
38:18
And so, I'm I just kind of roll the dice.
38:21
And so, it's this huge group of people where it's like people I know from work, people that I know from college, people I know from the internet, someone at a friend of a friend's party who I hit it off with, and whose phone number I ask for, and I just like send those out into the ether.
38:37
I think if I'm having like a dinner party where there is a smaller set of guests or I'm just inviting a couple people over, the strategy can be different.
38:47
Sometimes like I've done dinner parties that are discussion based.
38:50
So I'll give everybody like an article to read before and then we talk about it.
38:53
So it's like, okay, what people do I know who I think would have a good time discussing this topic.
38:56
Or something I've been trying to do and I've I think I've had to make peace with the fact that you cannot brute force this.
39:03
I'm I'm really trying to have like a friend group in New York because my favorite thing about living in DC is that my husband and I had this group of friends, like six or seven friends. We all had a group chat.
39:12
We all knew each other from college and we saw each other like once or twice a week.
39:15
And all you would have to do is go into the group chat.
39:19
Like there was this bar that we really like to go to called Galaxy Hut.
39:22
We go, "All right, who wants to go to the hut tonight?"
39:24
And you know, a couple people would show up and like that kind of cohesive friend group.
39:28
I feel like in York I moved in January in fairness.
39:29
Um, I have a lot of great individual friendships, but that kind of friend group feeling I really want and I'm trying to cultivate, but I think I have to accept that I can't just like you, you you we are a friend group now.
39:50
>> Well, here's the question.
39:50
Like, we give fellowships.
39:53
So, let's say I gave you a $100,000 fellowship and it was for creating, I don't know, 10 social groups.
40:04
How would you design that?
40:04
How would you and and by the way, they would have to live on after you were no longer involved?
40:14
What would the design look like?
40:14
Would it look a lot like your the way you're doing parties or would you do it differently? >> I don't know.
40:20
I'm just not really sure that the kind of thing I'm trying to do is like I don't think you can buy it. >> No, I agree.
40:29
>> Like I I don't think that I don't think >> I agree.
40:31
>> I agree. the the 100,000 would be just for you to be able to get the venues to set up that >> I mean so I feel like there are a good amount of like you know events sort of built to attract people with a certain kind of political or personality orientation you know um whether that's something like I guess sort of
40:51
apolitically like run clubs or you know the salon where we're going to have this public intellectual speak and then their fans will come and like that can sort of create like a social group or even something like like a church, right, where it's like people or oriented around certain religious beliefs and then it creates community from there. >> Um like I I just don't know how I would
41:11
>> Um like I I just don't know how I would >> You're doing it right now.
41:15
You're you're designing it right.
41:18
I think what I'm skeptical of is I feel like whether or not you want to be friends with someone is so it's so difficult to categorize and I think that like you can have events that might attract people of certain or you know the kinds of people who might get along and then maybe they will become but like those people like I guess what I what I'm running up against
41:46
is you can't make people do things that they don't want do like it's both that you can't make people go to events they don't want to go to but you can't make the people go to events like here here is the thing that I think holds people back with making friends in New City okay you and I were talk are talking we just met it we're hitting it off we're having a great time in order for this to
42:04
become a friendship in order for us to not just like never cross paths again after this one of us has to pull out our phone yeah and say >> hey do you want to swap numbers and that is hard to do because it requires kind of revealing that you like this person and you want to keep talking with them >> and you want to get to and like it it does open yourself up to the possibility
42:30
of some kind of rejection cuz like the person will probably not say no but maybe they'll be like what is you know you have the possibility that someone's going to be like what is this overeager weirdo doing you gross right like that's always a possibility and I have man and I used to be the kind of person who was terrified of doing something like that. Even though I'm quite gregarious and,
42:51
Even though I'm quite gregarious and, you know, extroverted, I still would not do that.
42:55
And I would still like I at at a certain point in my early college career, I remember having like a list on my like what are my goals for the semester being ask one friend to go to lunch.
43:06
Like it was that big of a like difficult thing for me to do because I was so I just had this >> What What do you think was causing that anxiety?
43:15
I just think I thought that I was just too weird and that I was like I I I think that I just hadn't quite found my people yet, >> right?
43:27
>> And so I think some of this was like the accurate perception that some of the people I was around thought I was weird and I hadn't quite gotten like comfortable enough in my own skin to be like that's fine. That's your prerogative.
43:38
I think I'm pretty great.
43:40
Um, and I I think that I was just like very, you know, being rejected sucks.
43:48
Um, and it's hard to like pierce that film and just do it.
43:53
And I think I've just I mean, this is the thing with taking the risk.
43:58
Like I didn't used to do that and I started doing it basically because I went like I want to make more friends. Yeah.
44:03
And so I started doing it and now it doesn't bother me at all.
44:05
I am and I always do this.
44:07
If I if I like someone I and I'm enjoying talking talking to them, I go, "Hey, do you want to swap numbers?"
44:12
And then I invite them to my next party.
44:14
And my people are often shocked when they come to my parties, when they hear me talking about my plans or whatever.
44:20
They're like, "Oh my gosh, you've only lived in New York for a year.
44:23
Like, how do you have 50 people in your house right now?"
44:28
>> Like, well, it's called not caring at all what people think of me.
44:34
>> See, that is >> and trusting that people will self- select. That is a superpower. >> Yes.
44:39
I think it is so important for people to accept that they are not everyone's cup of tea, >> right?
44:44
>> And that like how you actually find your the people who are meant to be your friends is by accepting that like the fact that not everyone likes you is a good thing >> because it means that you have enough of a personality that people can react against that. >> Exactly.
44:59
And so like being being distinct in whatever way like just having your personality will allow people to be like oh okay this person has things that I like I want to hang out with. >> Yeah. Yeah.
45:09
Uh and back to Bezos when he gave when he was asked about this what's the one quality that people should strive for and it was authenticity.
45:21
basically be yourself because some people are going to hate you, some people are going to love you, and that's just the way it works.
45:29
>> And and I think it's also easier to change certain parts of your personality than you might think cuz be being yourself is important, but also what if what if you don't have a pleasant personality?
45:42
And like I think I genuinely have become more likable as I've gotten older.
45:44
And I think part of this is that I've like I've just become I don't know.
45:48
I think part of it is just growing up.
45:50
I think a lot of people um it's it's important to not confuse like temporary like problems that basically stem from needing to grow up and needing to like stop being 17 and start being 23 >> with like basically diagnosible mental health conditions.
46:10
Like I think so much of the like therapy culture >> I could not >> trend is people confusing like I'm in high school and high school is really stressful and I haven't quite found the group of people that I like and I'm feeling lonely and weird and out of place and like maybe because I'm 17 I'm also not being the best version of myself.
46:34
This must be because I have whatever condition, right?
46:37
um or because you know the person I'm because my mom who I'm clashing with must be a narcissist or or whatever it is with like no it's just because being a teenager sucks and because nobody is the best version of themselves when they're 17 and like you can always you can always grow up.
46:53
Yeah, that I I that is so true.
46:57
And like as I aged, when I was younger, I was I was basically an overbearing And and and like literally I proitized.
47:08
It was my way or the highway.
47:12
And I realized that life punched me in the face repeatedly to say, "No, Jim, there are many other roads that people can take that are equally acceptable."
47:23
And so, uh, I but I was very lucky to be blessed with really not giving a what people thought about me from a very young age.
47:35
When I graduated from high school and they did the senior class poll, I was voted most radical.
47:40
And and and like literally I'm like, I'm not a radical. I'm I'm conservative.
47:50
And and but then as you get old, you at least for me, you begin to understand there is that fragility to a lot of people, yourself included, right?
48:00
And I what worries me and it's something I wanted your view on and I know you have very interesting views this creep into making everything a therapy session or a new uh uh diagnosis in the DSM, right?
48:24
Like learned helplessness.
48:27
Like is is that real learned helplessness? I happen to think it is.
48:32
But is that coming from a place where they're shy or afraid or I'll let you tell me.
48:42
>> Um I mean I guess there's sort of two different things here.
48:44
One is the larger like therapy culture.
48:46
Um every feature of someone's personality is a diagnosible condition kind of trend.
48:51
I think if something like learn helplessness is almost like an anti like people who I think as being somewhat skeptical of the diagnose everything uh movement sort of frame a lot of the sort of emotional fragility risk aversion among people to learned helplessness.
49:10
Um I mean I think that the the learned helplessness question I think helicopter parenting definitely has something to do with it.
49:22
I think that if you reach adulthood without ever experiencing real independence, without ever living without adult supervision, yeah, of course that's going to make you helpless.
49:34
Um, I saw this there was this viral Tik Tok video the other week and I I sort of had mixed feelings about it.
49:42
So, it was this mom and to be honest, she was speaking in a very condescending and grading way.
49:46
She was like, "My daughter is 17 and she's decided that she wants to move out when she's 18 because she's such a big grownup and she decided that she wanted to live in this student housing and she came to me and asked for help and I was like, "Figure it out. You're 18.
50:05
You're supposed to know."
50:06
And so she was basically talking about how her daughter was had some kind of had this like I don't know how to navigate this system, so I'm just going to freak out and assume that my parents should do it for me.
50:18
But I also was sitting there and I'm like, how does your 18-year-old not know how to do this?
50:23
Like on the one hand, yes, it is a problem.
50:26
Like it is probably good parenting for you. I I don't have kids. I'm not going to.
50:30
But, you know, it it seems to me like good parenting for when your teenager is trying to figure out something that is totally reasonable for them to be able to figure out to say >> figure it out. >> Figure it out.
50:42
>> Um, but also like she also was was treating it as as presumptively ridiculous that her 18-year-old would be able to live outside of her parents' home and sort of.
50:53
So, I was like, "See, this proves what a big dumb idiot my kid is that she can't figure out how to navigate living on her own."
50:59
And I'm like, I'm pretty sure most reasonably intelligent 18-year-old girls could move out, right? Like they they could.
51:07
I'm not saying they have to, right?
51:09
Like, but if they want to, they probably could.
51:10
And if your kid can't figure that out, maybe maybe you've contributed to this problem.
51:18
>> Like, why has she never had to figure out anything on her own before?
51:22
>> The problem, >> right? I mean, I don't know.
51:22
Um I I I went to So this um fine arts magnet school in Alabama I went to had a uh boarding option and so I went there from 7th through 12th grade but I lived there my last three years and so I was kind of left home when I was 15 and it was great. It was fantastic.
51:42
I entered college like knowing how to take care of myself and kind of secured in my own ability to like be independent and figure things out.
51:53
I mean, when when I hear when I see this sort of like online discourse about parents doing things for their college students, I'm like, the idea of my mom emailing a professor, >> it's like like cringe.
52:07
>> Like, are you from Mars?
52:07
Like I I I almost like struggle to think that this is a real thing, but I know it must be.
52:16
But like of course my like look, I love my parents and I respect them and there were plenty of times in college where I had problems.
52:24
I was like, "Oh, you know, I'm not quite sure how to navigate this challenge I'm facing."
52:28
And I would ask my parents for advice, >> sure, >> about what I should do.
52:32
Um, but the idea of of then my parents stepping in to solve it for me, absolutely mind-boggling.
52:42
>> It's continuously infantilizing your child, >> right?
52:47
>> Well, I got married very young. I was 22. Yeah.
52:50
>> And we decided, well, what the hell? We got married at 22.
52:52
We might as well be young parents.
52:55
>> So, our first child was born at 24. We were 24. >> Mhm.
52:58
And we talked a lot about how we wanted to raise our kids.
53:02
And what we ultimately landed on was our job is to raise great adults.
53:12
And using that as a control line prohibits all sorts of behavior like this woman.
53:18
Can you imagine that she thinks she can learn how to move out on her own?
53:23
And so you we couldn't say because I said so.
53:26
We couldn't say uh my house, my rules.
53:30
That isn't raising a great adult.
53:33
That's raising a compliant person.
53:36
And so I I loved your line about figure it out because my kids used to use me as before Google as I I I read a lot and I retain facts.
53:45
And so they when when they had an assignment, they just come up and say, "Dad, who was the French representative at the uh Congress of Vienna ending the Napoleonic Wars?"
53:57
And of course I knew it was Taland, but I wouldn't tell them.
54:00
We had a big bookcase and I said, "Look it up in there."
54:04
And so I was having a talk with my oldest uh child who is the very famous podcaster Patrick Oonosy.
54:09
Um, and he said, "Honestly, Dad, I think the greatest thing you and mom did for us was that because we learned when you go and find Talan, well, you've gone through a dozen other interesting characters, too."
54:28
And so, you start going down those rabbit holes.
54:30
But I definitely hate hate because it really kind of started with my generation, this helicopter nonsense when cell phones were relatively new.
54:41
We had a lot of contemporaries that put spyw wear on their children's phones. >> Oh yes. Yes. Everyone has life 360.
54:51
Um >> when I first saw it, I said that is obscene. Yeah, you can't.
54:54
You will destroy your relationship with your child because you're going to blurt out something when you see something that really freaks you out and you're going to destroy the trust that you have with your child.
55:10
>> It's pretty common to find on sites like Reddit college students who are like, "What do I do about the fact that my parents, you know, I'm an adult when my parents have this tracking app on my phone and they get mad if I'm like not at my 9:00 a. m. class or whatever."
55:20
I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I don't think Look, I don't I do have a hard time telling like how common the extreme end of it is." Yeah.
55:31
>> Certainly, when you look at surveys about like at what age should a child be allowed to be left at home, I think there's an indication that it's gone a bit too far.
55:37
And I and I think some of this is like only possible for the most affluent parents.
55:42
Like I had college educated parents, like a pretty normal middle- class family, but like when I was 14 during the summers, my parents couldn't like they didn't hire like a team of babysitters and tutors for us.
55:55
Like we were just left alone.
55:55
And my youngest sister was seven and then like my brother, I had like an 11-year-old sister, 10-year-old brother, and we would like we were old enough that we that we would be fine on our own for the day.
56:06
And so, you know, I was 14.
56:06
I knew how to dial the phone.
56:09
And so, if something went wrong, like I could call them or I could call 911 or whatever.
56:16
And nothing bad ever happened.
56:16
Like, we mostly sat around like watching YouTube or playing outside or like, you know, occasionally once the closest it was like maybe there should have been a little adult supervision here.
56:26
I was like maybe 16 and my brother who was four years younger with one of his friends were playing in the creek near our house and they caught a crawfish and they brought it back in a pot.
56:37
We're like, "Emma, Emma, Emma, can we cook and eat this crawfish?"
56:41
And I was like, "Yeah, sure. Why not?"
56:44
And then I thought about it a little bit more and I was like, "Actually, no, no, you cannot do that."
56:50
And I told Emma and then my mom was driving home and she saw them as they were walking down the street to put the crawfish back in the creek.
56:56
They were like Emma said we could eat in.
57:00
Then she said we couldn't eat in.
57:00
She was LIKE, "YES, WHY WOULD SHE let you do that?"
57:04
So, >> um, but yeah, it worked out just fine.
57:08
Um, and I think entering college feeling confident in my ability to like live on my own.
57:14
You know, my family was in Alabama.
57:16
I was in college in Virginia.
57:16
I don't think I'm a homesick person by nature, but I really like I I did not always have I was not always thriving at a 100% level in college, but the kind of basic like can I pay my rent? Can I clean my room?
57:33
Do I need someone to tuck me in?
57:35
That was not a problem I was having.
57:40
>> Let's talk about your book. >> Okay.
57:44
It's a collection of essays on Jenzie and risk aversion called No Hard Feelings.
57:48
It comes out with Valentine Books and I think August 2027.
57:53
>> We have a publishing division called Infinite Books.
57:55
We would have loved to have published that book.
57:58
>> Sorry, Penguin got it first. >> Yeah, too late. Too late for us. I tell me about it.
58:03
I've written four books uh all non-fiction.
58:05
I'm just finished my first fiction book, >> which wow, fiction is a hell of a lot harder than non-fiction. >> Yes.
58:15
I don't think I could do I don't think I could write >> novel. It's fun.
58:17
It's you got to if you start like, you know, first principles, I'm a baby. I understand nothing.
58:24
I I actually programmed an AI prompt to be one of the well best and most well- read in the genre that I'm writing.
58:34
Uh but I also told the prompt that he hates me.
58:40
Not only that what I wrote, he dislikes me as an individual. >> Nice. Nice.
58:45
>> But some of the best criticism that I got for what I wrote came from that prompt, right?
58:50
because I'm like, you know, if someone I love said these horribly mean things to me, I wouldn't forgive them.
58:59
But this is a machine >> and and it fits in with the with the theme of your book. So, how many essays? When is the book due?
59:08
I I think we've covered pretty much >> it's it's so it's so close to being done.
59:15
Um, so it's eight essays and I'm supposed to turn in my third draft to my editor at the end of the month.
59:22
So I'm like locked in, but it's so close.
59:23
Well, like we're basically in line level edits at this point, which is >> so nice. Yeah. >> Um, but it's funny.
59:31
A year ago, I was on book leave doing the actual writing of the thing.
59:35
So it's very nice that the actual writing of the thing is done, but of course with books, there's a year between when you actually finish it and when it comes out.
59:42
So, we're going through that now, which is exciting.
59:44
I will I'm very much looking forward to the stage in which the book is done and all I have to do is hawk it.
59:54
>> Well, the the capitalist in me would tell you that one of the things Infinite Books, our imprint does is we collapse that time.
1:00:02
We're able it doesn't take a year when you're done with a book.
1:00:06
>> I don't I don't mind that it takes a year.
1:00:08
That's more time to hawk it. >> Okay.
1:00:10
So, what can readers anticipate and who who are you aiming the book at? Will I enjoy it?
1:00:18
>> I hope you will enjoy it.
1:00:18
Um, so the essays I'm I'm sort of trying to bridge the bridge the space between memoir and sort of cultural criticism.
1:00:29
So I think of the book largely as cultural criticism where I'm you know so I have essays focusing on stuff like therapy culture like AI boyfriends like celebrity worship like marriage like dating that kind of thing.
1:00:46
Um both incorporating you know looking at you know what's the latest oped from the cut about this that went viral what's happening on Tik Tok but also what's happening in the novels people are reading.
1:00:56
So I wrote a lot about Sally Rooney novels because those are very popular literary novels that are focusing on these sort of contemporary relationships. What does this say?
1:01:06
Um also looking at older works of literature like I have an essay about sex in which I write a lot about Lady Chatterly's Lover which I would like my parents to maybe skip.
1:01:17
Um it's like you guys can you don't have to read that part.
1:01:23
Um, and then I'm also drawing from a lot of my own experience.
1:01:26
So, for example, with the therapy culture essay, I went through like a rough patch during CO.
1:01:32
I was 20 and I convinced myself I had autism.
1:01:35
And that was sort of like how I explained the problems I was having.
1:01:39
And I was like, this this is it.
1:01:41
This proves that it's not my fault, right?
1:01:43
It's not because of some deep deficiency within myself.
1:01:45
It's because of this lifelong condition that was going to be this way forever. Mh.
1:01:52
>> Um, and both like how I came to believe that, but also how I came to then start questioning whether that was actually right, you know.
1:02:00
So, I I glombmed on to this label and then almost immediately after like I hit my stride and I found my people and I was like, wait a second, this identity label was supposed to explain why I don't have friends and now I have a lot of friends, >> right? >> Wait a second.
1:02:17
maybe maybe something else was happening here and I was giving this like permanent name to a temporary problem.
1:02:23
So I was writing about that my own marriage obviously has a lot about like how I came to be the kind of person who got married at 24 which is pretty rare among people of my age group >> and and has you're three years in right to your marriage. >> Yes.
1:02:38
>> How has that changed you?
1:02:40
>> Um how's that changed me?
1:02:40
It it makes my life better in every way. I don't know. It's pretty great. 10 out of 10.
1:02:46
Um I think always having someone there and like having the security of that is so wonderful.
1:02:55
Um I was almost thinking about like um attachment theory which is sort of this idea that in order for children to explore the world and be able to take risks they need to have a secure base which is normally a parent.
1:03:09
I think almost in my adult life like when you have a really like rich, stable, loving marriage, I can take more social risks because my husband is always there.
1:03:18
And in the same way for him with me, like he's always there at the end of the day for me to talk to.
1:03:23
He's always like I can talk to him about anything.
1:03:25
Whatever problem I have, he's always there.
1:03:27
Like I'm he's always there for me to be silly with.
1:03:32
like just having that person and and sort of making I think what makes marriage different from indefinite cohabitation or whatever is that you're you're making this you're deciding to put the eject button further away.
1:03:44
And that I think has been like the big shift is the difference between how I felt about my husband when we were just boyfriend and girlfriend versus how I feel about him now that we're married is that the whole operation just feels so much more like secure and permanent.
1:04:02
It's like we've chosen each other forever.
1:04:05
Like we're doing this like it that that kind of team feeling.
1:04:07
Like all the time I'll say stuff about like our family.
1:04:11
We don't have kids yet, but it's just like we're this even though it's just two of us, like we're this family unit and we make these kind of collective decisions and it's great.
1:04:21
>> You know, that's so cool for me because that's the way I felt when I got married at 22.
1:04:26
I I my wife and I have been married 44 years and and so like literally you become one person, right?
1:04:36
Like like she remembers certain things that I have no clue about and I remember certain things that she has no clue about.
1:04:43
But again, when we were talking about it and in the same conversations with how are we going to raise children, we we were like, okay, so at the time divorce rates were soaring, everyone was staying married for, you know, up to six to seven years and then splitting up.
1:05:03
And and I just sort of said to her like I think we really need to say we are in this for good >> and and there's going to be a lot of hills and a lot of valleys and do you agree?
1:05:17
I mean >> yeah I mean I think I've been very lucky in that you know we've only been married three years.
1:05:23
you haven't really had any challenges yet.
1:05:25
But I think that's probably how it should be.
1:05:27
Like on year three before you've had any kids and you're like living your awesome life in New York, everything should be perfect, >> right?
1:05:35
>> And that's basically how it is.
1:05:35
And like everything is perfect.
1:05:36
You're the best person ever. Everything is amazing. But that's good.
1:05:40
But also, I think we we have talked about this.
1:05:42
We're like, we know the happiness data that like when couples have young kids, there's normally a dip in their marital satisfaction. But we both know this.
1:05:48
And of course, I don't want to make big proclamations about how I'm going to feel about having kids before I have them. Yeah.
1:05:54
But I at least hope that we will be somewhat inoculated against the worst possibilities of that when we're like, "Okay, we're super duper ultra happy now."
1:06:04
And we know that when we have kids, we'll probably be a little more annoyed at each other all the time cuz we'll suddenly be super sleepd deprived.
1:06:11
Um, and we'll have this other person to worry about.
1:06:13
But that's okay because we're at like 12 out of 10 right now.
1:06:19
So a brief dip would still be fine.
1:06:23
>> And also you're not >> and we just love each other a lot.
1:06:24
I don't know to say like >> you're also not yet accounting for the fact how much you're going to love those children. >> Right. Right. Yes.
1:06:32
>> Like that I was unprepared for that when when I was 24 and held my son for the first time. I'm not a crier. Okay.
1:06:39
I literally had tears in my eyes and I was just looking at him and I finally understood what unconditional love felt like >> because I really hadn't felt that before.
1:06:55
So, yeah, you're right about the about the kids and the problems.
1:06:59
And uh there there there's a really funny skit from an ancient British show called Abf Fab uh where these two women are are living together and they're both have drinking problems and they're both really really funny and they don't have kids. One of them does.
1:07:13
Anyway, they're have guests coming who always were the ultra minimalists, right?
1:07:19
And so they're running around their house trying to make every they're stowing all their junk in the in the closets and hiding it so that everything is absolutely pristine.
1:07:31
And then the gag is they open the door and their couple has had children and they come in >> with a bunch more stuff >> with all of the stuff and everything.
1:07:43
There's stuff on their shirt, etc.
1:07:43
And if you kind of lean in that that too can be fun.
1:07:52
>> Oh, I'm I'm I'm sure I I have a half brother who's 20 years younger than me. >> Oh wow.
1:07:57
>> Everyone should have a much younger half sibling.
1:07:58
It's awesome cuz you get all of the like baby cuddles, none of the responsibility.
1:08:05
>> And like obviously it's so different cuz it's not my kid, but like when I held him in my arms for the first time, I was like I would die for you.
1:08:12
That's that's what I love about being a grandparent because um the the old joke was why do grandparents and their grandparents >> we have a common enemy. >> Yeah. >> But it's true.
1:08:26
>> Maybe maybe that's how I am with my uh with my half brother.
1:08:28
We have a common >> and within our family there's a span of 10 years between my oldest and my youngest.
1:08:34
So um he the oldest got a little bit of that um in in helping his youngest sister.
1:08:41
And now both of my daughters, who are the younger two uh have young children and everything you're saying is a reality and and and yet I was talking to my youngest uh who used to be a stand-up comedian and you remind me a lot of her.
1:09:00
you're very funny and you're very smart and uh so uh I I I was checking in with her and she was like, "Yeah, yeah, certain days are kind of like the traveling third class in Bulgaria." >> Nice. >> Okay.
1:09:17
So, for the book, I know we're on a little time constraint here, but but for the book that comes out in a year.
1:09:24
In the meantime, what are you enjoying doing the most?
1:09:27
Is it the writing for the journal? Is it the videos?
1:09:28
Do you have bigger >> writing for the journal is pretty awesome.
1:09:33
I mean, it's the it's the dream job, right?
1:09:35
I get to write about whatever I want.
1:09:36
Um, and I can write longer things or shorter things.
1:09:39
Um, it's really the dream.
1:09:42
So, I'm I'm very grateful to be doing that.
1:09:46
>> Um, I'm enjoying just like making fun cocktails and serving them to people.
1:09:51
Like I saw you had a yoga party.
1:09:53
>> Yes, that was our that So, my husband and I were born exactly 14 days apart.
1:09:57
So we have joint birthday parties every year. >> Great.
1:10:00
>> So we had this theme year's theme was poga party.
1:10:03
Um and so of course that meant that I made sort of >> Roman I saw the names of the drinks.
1:10:08
I thought they were great.
1:10:12
>> Um I love like there's some part of my creative brain that's fulfilled by making drinks and like coming up with new ideas and like how do I get this flavor in this format that just like it's it's very satisfying.
1:10:23
and and and are you finding that people who might have been a little reticent to kind of join in the fun, etc.
1:10:32
, at your various parties as you've held them, like is is there a standout who came in kind of like a turtle and is, you know, with the head in the shell and is >> I don't think I I don't know.
1:10:45
I mean, I'm not going to do any of my friends dirty like that.
1:10:50
I I'm going to say that everyone who shows up is a delight who has a great time and is the life of the party. Yeah.
1:10:57
>> Just as much as any other person is the life.
1:10:58
They're all equally lives of the party.
1:11:01
>> And and back briefly to the video verse the books and the writing for the journal.
1:11:06
Um harder time killing your darlings in the books and written pieces or harder time killing your darlings in the videos?
1:11:17
Like was there a video where you had to leave something out?
1:11:20
You're just like, >> "Yeah."
1:11:22
I mean, I think with videos it's harder because you have to make such a simple point. >> Yeah.
1:11:28
>> Um and the way I've been able to deal with the having to kill my darlings thing is that I've made follow-ups >> um where if someone has like if there's a common objection that I really want to respond to but I don't have time to get to, making a follow-up is a way of getting to that.
1:11:44
So, you know, um, with like the grocery I made this grocery store video and the first one was just talking about like why grocery stores show that free markets are the best way to get the most economic prosperity for the most people.
1:11:56
And people are like, what about the city owned grocery stores?
1:11:59
What about the city owned grocery stores?
1:12:00
I was like, I was going to address that in the first draft, but I didn't have time to.
1:12:03
And so, I made a second video about the city grocery stores.
1:12:07
>> Writing wise, I, you know, I don't think that I am far enough in my career.
1:12:09
I'm not yet successful enough to be able to afford being hard to work with.
1:12:13
So I normally even if I'm like a but I really liked that line >> will just like accept all changes from my editor.
1:12:26
I think for this round I'm letting myself have like two places where I'm like I would like to keep that line in.
1:12:32
But everything else I'm like okay yes we can cut it.
1:12:34
And also editors are very good at their jobs. Yes.
1:12:36
Like I like editors a lot.
1:12:38
I am edit I'm starting to edit a little bit for the journal now, but I still think of myself as mostly a writer and the people who like love who like live and breathe editing are so talented and are so good at helping me kind of like see outside of my own brain.
1:12:53
And like there have been so many times, especially with this book, where either my editor or my agent who did a lot of um editing on my book proposal would say something about my argument and I'd be like, "Oh, that is so obviously true.
1:13:06
And for some reason, I could not see that until you pointed that out to me. You're so right.
1:13:13
Like I So I also am very grateful to editors.
1:13:18
So I I usually just do what they tell me.
1:13:20
>> And a as do I because it is a very different skill.
1:13:24
And again, I was lucky in my marriage because my gra my wife graduated Sumakum Laad in journalism and her talent actually proved to be editing.
1:13:35
And the first time around it did not go so well.
1:13:38
I was writing my first piece for publication for Barren and I was 33 I think at the time and I wrote it and I thought, "Oh, that was funny."
1:13:49
And ooh, I really made I that was a real zinger there.
1:13:51
And I had to I handed her the actual physical paper, right?
1:13:57
And couple hours went by and she walked back in and all I saw was a sea of red. >> Oh no.
1:14:08
>> And and we were coming into the city.
1:14:08
We were living in the suburbs.
1:14:11
We were coming into the city on the train and we got into the biggest fight ever until at the end of the train ride I realized that she was completely right. >> Yeah.
1:14:25
This is um I will say I I always you know I always want my husband to read my essays before I turn them in.
1:14:31
But mostly what I want him to tell me is sweetheart this is the most brilliant thing anybody has ever written.
1:14:36
You're the smartest woman I've ever encountered. This is amazing.
1:14:39
And whenever he's like oh I'm not so sure about this line.
1:14:43
I'm like >> why are you being why are you persecuting me right now? >> That was me.
1:14:47
That was me on the train.
1:14:49
>> So I I don't think I I I can take it from everyone else.
1:14:51
But I if my husband is not allowed to say anything mean about my writing.
1:14:56
So >> I got incredibly lucky because I did have that realization early.
1:15:02
>> Yes, >> she was trained to do this.
1:15:03
She is really gifted at doing this.
1:15:05
She's gifted a lot of things.
1:15:07
She's a street photographer here in New York.
1:15:09
Um but that gave me the freedom to let her fix it, which made me a little lazy to be honest.
1:15:20
Do you do you do you find that you rely a lot on the editors?
1:15:24
A little >> um I would say like an I don't know what a normal amount is not too much I don't think.
1:15:32
I mean it also depends on the piece you're doing.
1:15:33
So most of what I write for the journal is not getting like heavy edits.
1:15:36
I mean I I write for a newsletter so most of what I'm writing is between like >> five and 800 words.
1:15:42
So it's not it's not like this big overhaul with um the book.
1:15:49
you know, most of the essays are between 8 and 10,000 words even.
1:15:53
So, like most of the editing is about like structural arguments and so I still have to do it myself, which is good.
1:15:59
I I've had a couple experiences writing for um outside publications where I at the end of it I was like, I feel like the editor wrote 30% of this. >> Yeah.
1:16:10
>> I I don't love when that happens.
1:16:10
And thankfully, that isn't >> there.
1:16:14
I think there's a good balance between like getting getting the piece into the best shape it can be, but also preserving my voice. Yeah.
1:16:20
Also feeling like I wrote the thing. >> Yeah.
1:16:24
And and I think that was why I was so lucky and in that my wife got my voice.
1:16:30
And so if she changed it, she just made it make sense. >> Yeah.
1:16:35
>> I I went through a very early I was way too academic in my writing style.
1:16:38
Uh even though I was not uh like a huge uh fan of college and found most of it a waste of time.
1:16:46
Um, I as far as the academics, I I loved reading on my own and like I was punished when I was a kid for going all the way through the SRRA reading tests in third grade when you were supposed to wait because they went all the way through 8th grade and I went to Catholic school.
1:17:03
And so they made me sit at my desk when the other kids were doing the SRRA instead of sending me to the library with a Christmas tree.
1:17:10
And I think that that was what radicalized me because I I went home and complained deeply to my father and he's like, "Come here."
1:17:21
And he walked me into the library and he pointed at the Encyclopedia Bratannica and he said, "Read that." >> Nice. Nice. >> Which I I did.
1:17:30
But I I definitely think that the ability to put your stuff out there takes a lot of courage. >> Oh, thank you.
1:17:40
And um I I I just from the first video that I saw of you and then in the where I really got excited about being able to chat with you and get to know you was what you wrote.
1:17:51
I I am much more oriented toward the written word than I am to video or audio.
1:17:56
Um and I think your writing is great.
1:18:00
Do you aspire to write full-time to join the journal as a journalist?
1:18:06
I mean I I I mean I do write full-time journal what I mean.
1:18:13
I I mean like um >> is there some sort of journalistic thing that you aspire to or more book?
1:18:26
>> I think I have the best of all worlds.
1:18:29
So >> yeah, you really do.
1:18:29
You're very panglosi out.
1:18:30
So, I can write booklength stuff, >> but I can also write shorter pieces and I can also make videos.
1:18:37
I I feel very lucky and that and actually for the journal because I do really like writing longer form pieces.
1:18:42
I like being able to really investigate something and spend like 4,000 words on it. Yeah.
1:18:49
>> Um and working at Reason, I got to do that pretty often because it's a magazine.
1:18:51
But with the journal, I've also been able to do that.
1:18:53
Like if there is something that I think deserves 3,000 words, I've been able to pursue that and just publish that there, too.
1:18:59
So I feel like I have the the dream situation because any any length thing I want to write, any format thing I want to produce, I can do it. >> Yeah. And that is very cool.
1:19:12
Nick at Reason is a pretty good friend of mine. >> Yes, Nick is awesome.
1:19:17
>> Um well, listen, thank you for giving me so much of your time. I think you are awesome.
1:19:21
I I uh uh I I live in a family of writers.
1:19:25
Uh both of my daughters are writers.
1:19:27
Um, my middle has won a bunch of awards for kind of middle-grade fiction.
1:19:33
She's now into young adult. >> Awesome.
1:19:35
And uh so I I I I just love people who love to write and and then do it as well as you do because the other thing that I think that you do really well and maybe this is more in your videos but you make it fun and like people don't want to, you know, the busybody blue stockings to be telling you, you know, this is what you have to do.
1:20:04
Uh, I think if you make your point a little lighter and a little more entertaining, people are going to respond to it better.
1:20:15
Listen, we have one final question that we ask everyone on here and it's pretty simple.
1:20:21
We are going to wave a wand and we're going to make you empress of the world for one day.
1:20:25
You cannot put anyone in a ray education camp. You cannot kill anyone.
1:20:32
But what you can do is we're going to hand you a magical microphone and you can say two things into it and you are going to incept the entire population of the world whenever their next morning is.
1:20:45
They're going to wake up and they're going to say, "I just had two of the greatest ideas and unlike all the other times, I'm going to actually act on both."
1:20:58
>> That is way too much responsibility. No. No.
1:21:00
If nominated, I will not run.
1:21:00
If elected, I will not serve. I am not doing this.
1:21:06
>> You're just not going to do that. >> No. No. I am not. I am not.
1:21:10
>> Are you watching that with a 10 foot?
1:21:12
>> Are you You are the first guest who's refused. I love that. >> No.
1:21:15
I can't believe everyone isn't refusing.
1:21:17
I can't live with cuz like what if it goes badly, right?
1:21:19
Like what if whatever I say ends up horrendously and then I have to live with that. No.
1:21:28
So, so you're taking the General Sherman approach. >> Yes, 100%.
1:21:31
I am getting out of there. No way. >> You know what, Emma?
1:21:36
That makes me like you all the more.
1:21:38
Thank you so much for joining us on Infinite Living.