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[music] Immad, great to have you here. Great to see you again.
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>> Yeah, excited to join you.
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>> So, starting at the very beginning when you founded Mercury, you've mentioned a few times in a couple interviews that you had a slightly embarrassing moment when you went to pitch Andre and Horowitz.
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Um, tell tell our listeners a bit about that.
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>> Well, going to the real embarrassing stories.
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Uh yeah, I I distinctly remember it was a Tuesday.
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Uh and you know, this is my fourth company.
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So I developed this, it doesn't actually happen anymore, which is kind of a little sad, but back in the day, everyone had to go to Sandill Road, which is like this road in this kind of suburb of San Francisco, but that's where all the VCs are.
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So, you know, I would go there, I'd go to there's a Starbucks there, I'd go there, I'd get my latte, you know, show up a little early, get prepped. So I that's what I did.
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I was pitching in recent Horowitz for our seed round uh in 2017.
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Uh and I got my latte, everything's ready, you know.
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I pick up the latte and like I forgot to put the lid on it properly.
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The lid fell off and like the whole thing went all over me.
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>> Uh luckily it was like kind of a brownish shirt or gray shirt.
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So it didn't look that bad, but I mean it was pretty obvious that like half of it had like a latte stain on it.
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But I went into the pitch meeting.
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Uh this is the partners meeting.
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So there's like 20 people in the room, but thankfully they turn off all the lights because there's a deck on there.
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So [laughter] the lights down and I just do the whole pitch with the uh with like a massive coffee stain on me.
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Uh but they ended up investing in me.
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So >> Oh, do you think they noticed?
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>> Couldn't have been that bad.
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>> No one ever mentioned it, so I guess not.
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>> And what would be your advice now to Immad if you look back going into to pitch Andre Horitz or to some of the founders who one day want to get that opportunity to to go on Sand Hill Road and pitch to Andre?
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Uh I mean that I was successful in that pitch.
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So I guess I don't have like I'm like do the same thing again.
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Uh but you know I've done uh startups for a long time.
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I did my first start in 2006.
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So I've definitely failed uh plenty of pitches.
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Uh I think the two pieces of advice I would give myself if I was to go back and look at myself pitching is you know number one I I used to really treat investors as kind of like a transaction.
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I'm like trying to get money from someone, you know, it's like a and that I mean that is kind of the case, right?
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Like it is a business deal, but at the same time, yeah, especially now that I've been an investor for a long time, it's actually like not just a business deal.
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Like it's a, you know, you and actually maybe no business deal was a business deal when it's like this big, but you know, you're trying to establish like a relationship for 10 years.
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Uh there's a commitment as an investor that like you know, you'll be there for the entrepreneur.
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Uh so like there's just all of this kind of uh human side to it that I was missing for a long time.
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Like I wasn't really trying to get to know the person and like Yeah.
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I think people can tell if like you're there to like actually build a relationship versus there to just be a transaction kind of thing. >> Yeah.
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>> Uh >> so that's something I think I I missed until you you know now I'm like I mean I just behave like a a human, right?
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Like I'm like hey, you know, what are you doing for Christmas?
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like I'll I'll I'll try to build a relationship and like actually uh understand people and like you know help them understand me beyond just like the transaction.
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So uh that's one big thing.
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Um I think the second thing that is also kind kind of pretty hard especially I'm an engineer and I so I tend to take things like very literally and not want to exaggerate.
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I'm also from the UK so you know we we we hate like overselling uh modest. Exactly.
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Uh but it that just really doesn't work in like a early stage uh startup pitch, right?
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Like the like what you're really selling is not like a valuation.
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Uh what you're selling is like a low probability of an extreme outcome.
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Uh and you know like and it's it kind of is right?
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Like I mean maybe that's a harsh way to put it, but like it's very low probability and very hard to believe, but like you're really selling that vision.
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like you're selling like this low probability event.
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It's like, you know, it's not like 0. 1% probability.
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It's actually like 2% probability that this this will be a 10 billion company and that's why you should give me like a $20 million valuation.
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Uh and that took me like a really long time to get my head around like how to think about this like grand vision when like you know dayto-day in like an early stage startup like everything's going wrong.
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You don't have any engineers.
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Like you can't build anything.
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You have no idea whether it's going to work, right?
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there's a lot of like doubt, but you have to like kind of bottle up all this doubt and like make this like really grand pitch.
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>> So, investors are people, so treat them as such.
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You know, it's uh it's a long-term relationship almost like a marriage.
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And um I guess the second advice would be, you know, sell the dream, right?
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I we have a bit of a a joke inside a giant, but I give a bit of a discount to whatever the American entrepreneurs tell us they're going to do in terms of numbers, and we put a bit of a premium on the uh on the Brits and the Europeans and the Nordics.
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[laughter] So, I think that rings quite true.
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even just about the numbers.
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It's like the whole story, right?
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Like I think the Europeans often don't sell this like hundred billion dollar idea.
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It's like, you know, everyone knows it's like a lot of things have to go right to get there.
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But >> and I didn't actually know you uh started in the UK.
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How did you make it over to Silicon Valley from from the UK?
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>> Uh I did one so you know I worked for one year at Bloomberg.
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That was my only real job I've had.
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Uh and then I did one startup uh which didn't really go anywhere.
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It was like a Yelp in London.
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Uh but I just kind of got addicted to like the feeling of like doing a startup and being in the ecosystem.
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Uh and you know even back then this is 2006 there was a wave of entrepreneurs kind of moving from London to San Francisco.
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Uh and like the stories they would tell you were very fantastical right like it's like people raising money and like getting millions of users and all this stuff which is like you know much rarer in the UK especially in 2006.
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Yeah was a tiny little ecosystem. those like two VCs.
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Um, so it just seemed like, you know, I decided in a very short time period that this was just something I wanted to do for the rest of my life and it seemed like San Francisco was the place to do it. >> Awesome.
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And so you started Mercury in 2017, almost eight years ago. It's now valued at 3. 5 billion.
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What was that moment when you knew we've got product market fit?
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>> Uh, I was very skeptical of product market fit.
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market fit. I didn't want to like you know we launched and there's often this like idea of like the valley there's a valley of sorrow sorrow of death or something like that I don't know uh but the idea is that you launch and disillusion people use the product
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trough of disillusion that's [laughter] uh yeah lots of people use the product and then uh you know the buzz kind of dies down and then you have to think about like what's the long-term distribution and what's the long-term kind of fit and like really find product market fit after that point. Uh so we
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Uh so we launched uh but we actually grew like every month after we launched like we grew like more than 40% every month for the first year and and every every month I'd be like oh you know I don't know if this product market fit like you should you know it's like delayed excitement and we still have to figure something out and like we weren't doing any sales at all.
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This was just pure organic growth.
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Uh and then so we launched in April 2019 and then COVID hit in March 2020 and I was like this is it you know I knew we didn't have product market f like every you know the whole world paused for like a month so I was like okay I'm glad we didn't spend too much money etc.
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Uh and then the month after that like literally March like was one of the worst months we had by far the worst month.
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worst month. I think it was March or April and the month after that like we doubled uh because like you know that co that like co like pause was so so short but like you know everything about Mercury kind of fit the moment because
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this was a >> uh digital banking you could sign up online there was this like huge movement to like you know digital entrepreneurs wanting to set up businesses and do e-commerce and all this stuff uh and Mercury was like right there for that movement. So at that point I was like
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movement. So at that point I was like wow if we can take like a global pandemic and still grow again like we probably have like pretty strong product market fit and you know uh at that point to some extent I'd been like starving the company of resources like I was I did I just I was like not hiring in
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front I was hiring behind our growth so you know we didn't have enough customer support we you know we weren't like building too but at that point I was like okay you know this is really working let's go like actually try to invest ahead of the growth rather than like be behind and uh be stretched continuously. That's the kind of
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That's the kind of trajectory everyone everyone dreams of, right?
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But that is pretty rare for a startup to kind of see that consistent growth. >> Yeah, seriously.
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I mean, this was my fourth startup.
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[laughter] This was the first time it happened effort to me.
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Uh yeah, I think it is rare.
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I think it was a combination of things that allowed it to happen.
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Um I I guess I can dive into them if it's useful. >> Yeah, I think useful.
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>> Uh so I think there's like a few things.
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Number one, this happens much better in like either consumer startup or like a founder proumer like you know we were selling to founders.
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Uh so this you know it's very hard to have like this kind of instantaneous product market fit if you're doing enterprise sales or something like that like that would just you have to build a go to market motion there which is different. So that's number one.
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Number two, we had a surprisingly polished product because it took us a year and a half to launch initially and that's mostly because we ended up doing one partner bank integration and that didn't work out.
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So we had to switch that partner bank to another partner bank.
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So you know the way Mercury works is the whole back end is based on a sponsor bank and we ourselves are just a software that like kind of sends customers to the sponsor bank.
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Uh but that means the integration is like quite deep with with these partner banks.
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Um, but because the first one didn't work and we had to spend another 6 months building new one, we just had to like the designer and the front end team had like a ton of time on their hand [laughter] and to like rebuild the product and we actually ended up rebuilding the whole product.
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Uh, so it ended up being a very polished product by the time we launched.
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Uh, and that was like a pretty important part to the Mercury story.
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the Mercury story. It's like hey you normally people are so used to having this like very janky experience with a banking product like it's going to uh yeah it's actually like slightly better in the UK so maybe you guys don't feel as much but in the US it's like a very painful product to sign up for a bank account uh you have to go in person you
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have to stand for 3 hours in a line uh and then you know you find out that the wires aren't enabled you have to go back to the bank branch to enable the wire when we started Mercury we signed up for like 12 banks uh to see the experience so it's really painful And conversely, Mercury was like this real really delightful experience. Um,
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Um, so it really got people hooked very early on.
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Uh, and then the other thing is I refused to launch until we had like a pretty complete feature set cuz I was like, you know, I've been running startups for a long time. >> Yeah, exactly.
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Like people, you know, especially in 2017, there was a lot more like MVP, do the minimum possible thing.
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Uh, but I was like, yeah, if we don't have wires, there's no point in launching because that's what startups need.
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uh if we don't have multi-user support, there's no point in launching because startups have multiple co-founders and they often hire people that need to manage the bank account.
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Uh we also wanted to support immigrant founders because I was like, hey, I'm an immigrant when I started uh my first company.
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Uh but also, you know, about 50% of uh startups have like at least one immigrant founder.
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Uh uh so like because we had this like high bar, I mean that's partly why we ended up switching partner banks because the first one wouldn't give us all the features we needed.
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Uh but because we had this high bar by the time we launched it was you know it was a complete product.
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It wasn't like it wasn't like there was bits missing that were like stopping product market fit because you know I knew exactly what the feature set needed to be and there was no point in kind of going out there without like that completeness. >> Amazing.
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And so then you hit product market fit, you're growing healthfully, you decide to go bring on some capital and really supercharge this thing.
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You've brought on some of the best investors in the game, A16Z, Sequoia.
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Do you think they've had a tangible impact on your trajectory?
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Is it something you would advise other founders to go optimize for?
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>> Um, so one funny thing about Mercury is, you know, we are selling to the portfolio companies of these VCs.
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Um we actually did this analysis where you know for our early VCs about 60% of their portfolio uses Mercury.
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Uh but for someone that's not a uh a Mercury investor it's like averages out to like 30 35%.
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Uh and the funny thing is like it's not like our VCs like you know we try to make promotional like perks and things like that for them but it's not like they're like actively pushing it that aggressively.
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But there's just something about being like backed by the VC that also invests in you that just lends a lot of credibility to Mercury.
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If you're selling to startups and that's like a core segment that that matters to you, I think having great VCs is like 100% >> okay >> useful and successful.
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Uh and that's worked really well for us.
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Uh outside that there's I I do think most of the time like you you know you're not going to be successful or fail because of a VC but there are like very tangible like specific things that almost every VC has done for us like you know helped helped hire like a VP of people or uh you know helped us through some other time or close a candidate.
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So I think VCs are like very useful and powerful uh when used correctly but they're not like the reason you're going to succeed or fail. >> Yeah.
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I I always talk about with my team is they can we can tilt the scales.
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We're not going to decide, yeah, >> which way the scales ultimately fall, but we can help tilt them one way or the other.
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So, you've now built a unicorn.
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We actually had Tom Bloomfield, one of your uh London to San Francisco peers back on the show a couple months ago, and he's been incredibly open about the toll that Monzo took on his mental health.
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Um he's he's been quoted saying, "I remember I'd remember what's happening in my life and what I'd have to do that day and this enormous weight of anxiety would just descend on my chest and push out all the air as I realized what my life was like."
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It's quite dramatic um but also quite intense.
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What's it been like building Mercury?
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Has it been tough in that way or what's been the toughest part for you?
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H um you know I I have this outlook that like I had that you know that one job I had uh for one year and I just remember being just like so unmotivated you know I'd wake up in the morning I'd do that like 45 50 minute commute on the tube uh
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and I just like did not at all feel like uh I was enjoying myself and I was like really tired after the day ended even though I didn't even do that much work and then I remember this feeling of just like starting a startup and I was like
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working like you know I mean I was young back then I was working like the whole 99 whatever 997 you know I wasn't I wasn't not working that's all I was doing uh but I just remember the feeling of like just going like wow I'm just
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like so excited to build something uh so I I just feel like what I do and like you know get to build something and like set my own uh set my own rules is like such a privilege uh that you know I can't imagine doing anything else. Uh so that's like keeps my
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Uh so that's like keeps my hopefully keeps my mental health like a little bit in check.
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Uh there's definitely like times of like uh like it's an extreme up and down life, right?
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Like sometimes you're great, sometimes you're not like this.
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Uh you know, as I said earlier, like there's plenty of times I've like tried to fund raise and failed.
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And that's like one of the most disheartening things because like you know, but you put your soul into this fundraising process and everyone says no.
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And like you know to some extent your ego is attached to the company that you're trying to build.
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Uh and you don't like it's that's probably like some of you know one of the worst feelings is to have that process and then you have to figure out like what the hell do you do with this like startup that has employees and all this stuff.
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Uh so it's definitely like a an extreme lifestyle choice [laughter] but uh but it's also like I think I consider it like a big privilege as well.
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privilege as well. like even through like those moments where it's like hard like I try to think of that and go like okay you know what else would I be doing like I feel like I can do something here and and so that like helps center me I've
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also been you know married uh with a very supportive wife for like most of that time and she helps helps give me perspective as well u it's definitely hard though I mean it's not it's not like easy uh I think one thing that has helped me also is like I don't see it as like all on me. Like I don't I don't
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like all on me. Like I don't I don't personally go like wake up in the morning and like the only way Mercury succeeds is like if I if I think of solutions to things and like work really hard like you know we have 1,100 people working on Mercury now and I think it's like a shared responsibility and
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obviously some people have it more than others but I have two co-founders I have a 12 person exact team but you know even when there was nine of us uh which is like the kind of initial core team uh I didn't think of it as like it's my job to make Mercury successful I was like hey how do we make this together. Uh,
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Uh, and I think that helps a lot.
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I think sometimes, and I did this early in my career as well, like taking it too much on yourself.
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>> I think that's quite unusual.
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I think a lot of founders, uh, founder CEOs do feel the opposite actually, do feel like, uh, at least at the beginning that it all [snorts] stops and starts with them and and they're going to have to like, yeah, ultimately be the one who drives it forward.
17:34
So, how did how did you was that sort of a psych deliberate psychological trick or that's how you've always been?
17:38
This is a collaborative effort.
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We're all >> I mean it happened over time.
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Well, a I've always had co-founders.
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So, I mean there is like hopefully most people feel like they had that shared uh shared responsibility with them.
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Uh but there was this like distinct time probably in 2013 uh where my previous startup was like about to fail.
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One of those times where like not you know not raise money etc.
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Uh you know Union Square Ventures stepped up and gave us a million dollars basically.
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They were our series ABC.
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basically. They were our series ABC. uh when like you know we basically presented a plan to them saying like hey in six months we were profit we'll be profitable we we need a million dollars to like kind of bridge the gap so they
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gave us a million uh but it was you know it was they didn't say it but it was pretty obvious this was like the last money we were going to get uh so we had to figure it out uh and we went to the team and we were like hey we have we have this much money this is the plan
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for the next 6 months to become profitable uh and I really thought at that point like everyone's going to quit because I was like okay you know who's going to stick around for this like crazy plan where they won't have a job after 6 months but but really I think
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maybe like one or two people quit but like basically everyone stuck around uh and we did become profitable um uh but it really showed me that actually like you know telling people like transparently what's going on and sharing the burden is like the only way to uh to solve big problems. uh cuz I
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uh cuz I think the problem is like if you uh if you don't share the burden, people know that they're not, you know, they're not being the given the responsibility.
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So they don't feel like they need to step up because they're like, okay, you know, got it.
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Like it seems like it's not a big deal. He's not.
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Whereas if you tell people like, hey, this is like we're about to run out of money and like we better freaking figure it out.
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Like we all have our job to like try to figure that out.
19:21
Uh it's just like I think that people rise to the occasion and yeah maybe they don't take it as like yeah for them it's to some extent it's a job they'll get another job after 6 months I guess if they if it doesn't work out but so they won't take it as seriously as like maybe you would as a as a founder CEO.
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Uh but they do actually like they enjoy that like I think people actually like being told what's going on and they like being given difficult problems.
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So uh so after that happened from then on I've been like okay you know this actually work great let me try to do that like in all my companies.
19:54
>> I love that story that feels like an important leadership lesson.
19:56
Um and yeah I totally agree.
19:58
Startups the highest highs the lowest lows but ultimately a privilege to get up every day and be building something that you're that you're excited about.
20:04
Um shifting attention to the the other hat you wear in Silicon Valley.
20:08
You have angel invested in over 350 startups.
20:10
So, I got to ask you what your process for getting K1s is because that's got to be a whole a whole work stream there.
20:17
But, um, and you've and you've been in some fantastic companies, bunch of unicorns, Ripley, Air Table, WPY, Substack.
20:23
[snorts] What have you learned from those 350 investments?
20:28
What do you look for in a truly brilliant founder?
20:30
How do you spot a future unicorn?
20:35
>> Um, I mean, part of the reason I have so many investments is it's quite hard to spot a future [laughter] unicorn.
20:39
That's one way you knew for sure.
20:40
You Um, no, I really do think it's like it's very hard early on to know for sure.
20:46
Uh, and I think like, you know, I'm a believer in a diversified portfolio because yeah, it's it's so much of the returns are in that power law that like if you can get a hundred billion dollar company, uh, and you do 100 bets to do it, uh, that will actually give you a higher return than like 10 bets, uh, most of the time.
21:04
Uh but at least for me the biggest thing and it kind of ties into a lesson I learned at Mercury is that I think the market matters so much.
21:15
Uh >> and like I don't think I'm like that much better an entrepreneur when I built Mercury versus my previous companies.
21:22
I'm I'm definitely better but like I'm not like 10x better.
21:24
I'm like mostly uh similar.
21:28
But the idea for Mercury was just like so good uh at the right time uh and obviously well executed but but the idea made a huge difference.
21:36
Um so that's definitely something I focus on is like I want to yeah it's not that the market has to already be huge but I want to see a path that like in 10 years time this could be a huge company.
21:49
Uh and then there's a bunch of things around that like to build a huge company you need to like have like uh some modes and things like that as you scale.
21:59
Uh you need to be the kind of entrepreneur that wants to build a huge company.
22:02
I mean lots of people are okay with you know u not doing that like it takes like a lot of intensity and commitment to to build a build a big company.
22:10
Uh uh and you kind of as an investor have to have like some sort of thesis about where the world is going.
22:19
Uh and that thesis has to change all the time because you know what like what exists as an opportunity either someone already does it or you know like maybe you believe something during the pandemic that you don't believe after etc.
22:31
So so it does require like you know I'm like I literally look for different things every six months to invest in because I'm like you know I think this has played out and like this is maybe more interesting but obviously you're also opportunistic to see what like entrepreneurs are coming up with.
22:45
Um so that's by far my biggest focus.
22:47
Uh the second thing is kind of it kind of goes back to like this kind of human aspect of it.
22:52
Like I feel like if I invest in a entrepreneur, I'm kind of making a commitment that like you know if they text me, I'll I'll respond and I'll jump on a call on like a Sunday evening or something, right?
23:03
>> Uh so I only want to do that if I if I like the person and if you know I feel like our values align.
23:07
If you know if they're kind of uh like not being transparent and open or whatever, like that's that I have an issue with.
23:15
Um and so so that's number two.
23:18
Uh I think there's there's something else that that is hard to judge especially in kind of younger entrepreneurs but you want to see like is there is there a track record of like this person like trying to do hard things and succeeding at them.
23:33
Uh and of you know obviously it's easier if it's a second time entrepreneur or third time entrepreneur and uh actually you know all the examples you just you just uh mentioned are all second time entrepreneurs.
23:44
uh like Air Table uh how he sold his previous company to uh Salesforce.
23:49
Uh the WPPY founder, he actually built like a 300 person consultancy before he built WPY.
23:55
Uh anyway, I won't go through all of them.
23:57
Uh but yeah, often second time entrepreneurs like you know, if they're willing to do it again, they're crazy enough to like make a big company.
24:04
Uh so it is I do have a bias towards second time entrepreneurs, but you know, often obviously like some of the biggest successes are first- time entrepreneurs as well.
24:13
So you can't be like kind of too closed off to that.
24:16
>> Yeah, we've backed a bunch of second time entrepreneurs at Giant.
24:17
Um, and some of them are doing phenomenally well, but I would say even for the first time entrepreneurs, you often can spot examples of exceptionalism in their backgrounds, whether they, you know, they won, you know, loads of money on an online poker tournament when they were 15 or they came top of the uh the the the national exams in Turkey um or they ran an art gallery at 24.
24:38
there always kind of these these awesome unique stories I think of what people have done and shown real agency and and and some brilliance.
24:48
So why did you decide to formalize this angel investing?
24:51
You had a great great seat being the CEO of Mercury writing your angel checks, but you chose to turn this into a formalized $26 million fund.
24:58
What was behind that decision?
25:02
>> So I've actually been investing with other people's money since 2016.
25:03
So I had a rolling fund on angel list.
25:06
Um so I had this process but you know it was a lot less formal.
25:11
Um mostly I decided to formalize it like because well two things.
25:15
Number one uh I had a bunch of LPs kind of approached me saying they would invest.
25:19
So you know I was thought why not the the fund fundraising process sounded quite complicated but I felt like I had a few people that were that would be relatively quick to close.
25:29
Uh and then number two uh I'd been working with uh Yash who's my partner on the fund for a year.
25:37
He was actually an early investor in Mercury and you know he was available and he was kind of helping me uh with investing.
25:42
Uh and I really liked working with them but you know in order to really work with them full-time uh at least he's full-time on the fund.
25:50
I needed to have like a formal fund.
25:53
Um and I partly thought it would like save me time because I was like oh wow I'll have someone working full-time on it.
25:58
It'll save me so much time.
25:58
you know, it turns out, but he mostly just goes and finds more companies to talk to and so I end up spending like about the same amount of time on the fund.
26:06
Uh, but I think we end up investing in like better things. >> Fair enough.
26:10
So, Giants, founded by two former founders, myself and my partner Tommy, we personally believe that having been in the trenches, built a company from the ground up, gives you a certain empathy and an ability to spot talent um over those that that haven't gone through that experience. Do you agree?
26:25
You're you're a founder/investor yourself. >> Yeah, 100%. >> Yeah.
26:28
>> Yeah. I mean it's also not all the time but most of the time you know if you're entrepreneur and you have an issue uh like you know you're trying to hire a CFO for the first time or you're trying to do a series B uh >> yes you can ask VCs but you know they they haven't really done it themselves
26:48
like they have like secondhand information so yeah I have like I don't know how many at least 10 entrepreneurs that invested in Mercury that are like unicorn CEOs, Unicorn founders and CEOs, but those are the people I turn to when I'm doing something new because they've done most of the new things. So, uh I think
27:05
So, uh I think that by far is like the most valuable aspect of having kind of operators.
27:09
Uh I think yeah, the other thing is they yeah, they're all busy.
27:15
So, like they don't bother you, right?
27:16
[laughter] Like the the one thing you don't want as an entrepreneur is to be bothered by your investors.
27:21
Like you want to reach out to them and you need something.
27:23
You don't want them to say like, "Hey, did you see this competitor that just launched uh right and then you have to like write write a story about why they're not competitors."
27:31
Surprisingly, I was on I was also reading the news.
27:35
>> So, yeah, I think there's that's that's the combination and I do think it's valuable.
27:41
Um, obviously from my seat at Mercury, a lot of entrepreneurs know about me and uh you know about Mercury and want to emulate our success.
27:48
So, you know, I end up seeing a lot of companies.
27:52
I'm going to ask you one more question.
27:54
I'm going to ask you uh a tough one because I'm going to ask you to choose your your favorite child from the 350.
27:59
[snorts] Um so what which company are you most excited about in that angel portfolio and why?
28:07
>> Uh yeah, I do it's I'm like a big sci-fi reader.
28:14
So it is it's always kind of fun to talk about like some of the crazier more sci-fi or hard tech kind of companies.
28:20
Uh, so like I I'll pick this one because I think it's like the most crazy one that's having some success. It's called Astroforge.
28:26
Uh, they're they're like building uh satellites that go and intercept asteroids and like mine uh palladium from them.
28:33
Uh, which, you know, when I heard that idea, I was like, I have no idea whether it's going to work, but it's going to be very, very fun to like be part of that story.
28:40
Uh, so I don't know if it's like by far my favorite, but it's one of the kind of more fun ones I've invested in. >> Awesome.
28:48
Well, Amar, on that note, we'll uh we'll end on mining future asteroids.
28:52
It's fantastic to have you here.
28:52
Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and uh it's great to see you again.
28:58
>> Yeah, thanks for having me. This was fun. [music]