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You know, we talk off mic all the time.
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It's It's not a thing like this is this is what we we talk all the time. Yeah. All the time.
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>> The reason we're doing this again is because you've made your best >> Let's go. >> It's really simple.
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It's like you just keep you just keep, you know, outdoing yourself.
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>> Um >> I my favorite artists are the ones that set the bar the highest for themselves.
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Um, and really don't consider expectations to be of of others to be that necessarily that much of a of a of a deciding factor. >> Yeah, 100%.
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>> That's where the truth is.
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Uh, even The Devil Smiles. >> Yes. >> Why is it a mixtape? Feels like album. >> Is it a mixtape? Is it an album? What's the difference?
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>> That's the conversation that's been happening uh for quite some time now.
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And uh it was a conscious decision that uh I made with a friend of mine um aside.
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and we kind of were just looking at the scope of what I was trying to accomplish.
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And I think that originally a lot of those projects were like almost like a side quest.
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I mean songs were a side quest with each producer.
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>> Um it didn't work out as being a complete project for each producer.
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So, we started just putting things together and then it started to dawn on me.
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Um, obviously I had the idea of what the concept was going to be, but it started to dawn on me that, um, you know, a lot of the stuff that was actually coming together was my original vision of when I was in prison.
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>> Um, I wrote down in a book of mine that I had, I want to make a mixtape when I get out.
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M and I've made projects that were I guess considered mixtapz cuz they're not quote unquote studio albums, but I never did the DJ with the you know with the who kid with the >> where' you find that? >> Yeah.
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All that you know I've never never got a chance know it's real. >> Yeah.
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So it's kind of it's kind of full circle with the concept of the record and then kind of me being able to uh actually fulfill that that dream of actually making a real mixtape.
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And that was subconscious work, huh?
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I mean, the the the ideation of it was subconscious work.
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I mean, the way you describe it just now, you realized midway through the thought process that this was a very relatable project to the person who was in a very different set of circumstances as a young man. >> Yeah, 100%.
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And I think that, you know, there's another thing to also acknowledge.
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uh the original uh distribution platform uh for hiphop and rap music was uh through mixtapz because uh of a lack of resources etc etc.
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Um even the process of sampling and and things like that >> coming from the lack of resources to hire a band necessarily to create uh the said music.
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So a lot of people were just chopping samples and loops and and uh rapping over that and doing poetry over that.
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So to me, I think it's kind of like great that people are like, "This is an album, but it's a mixtape."
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>> You know, it was a genuine question rather than an assetation from me because I actually do think that that with all of those very fair points made, there is a there is some a freedom for the listener that that that comes from the creator that exists in a mixtape space.
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I just feel like you can drive a little more recklessly in a mixtape for some reason or it just feels like a different it does psychologically feel different. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure.
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I think that for me psychologically um I'm just in a place where the feeling is what makes it a mixtape.
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You know I think people would be like yo mixtape is supposed to be not well mixed and kind of this thing that you just throw out and >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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>> No, but around >> n but that doesn't have to be that.
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You can pre premiere your mixtape at at Mocha.
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>> It should be in places like that.
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You know, you should you should be able to take it to the Smithsonian and tell a story.
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and and present it to the people on a gigantic screen and have them consume it for the first time that way.
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>> It's one of the things I really love and respect about the way you do you do you is that you know you you don't just leave the creative in the studio and then distribute it to the people.
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Um you see the album as the key that unlocks the door in the corridor where you can put as much creative as you possibly can inside that store room of your mind. >> Yes.
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and uh that that distribution model that you've developed and ways to surprise, you know, whether it's working in in, you know, in the in the in the sort of competitive sort of uh uh you know, racrack and and fast car situation of of modern racing right through to this.
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It's just always just so interesting from F1 down.
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>> Um it's such an interesting way to do it.
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How much of that, just stay in the theme of like >> the young you and the today you, how much of that do you think >> really started to kind of show itself when you were in prison?
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the idea of actually thinking creatively outside just making music and building worlds around things.
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>> It's actually all of it started that there I learned something very important from being in prison and it's the biggest lesson um or skill set that I've picked up and it's the ability to have a certain level of patience patience for your ideas cuz when I'm there I'm like I have all these things I want to do and I can't do none of this stuff but that's not how you look at it.
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It's kind of like my ability to look at release dates now, no pun intended, um stem from prison.
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It's like, >> okay, this record was done in August.
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I had these pressed, you know, already like >> uh you know, um for a while, you know, um >> it's true, by the way, cuz I went around to listen to it and and and was like going, "This is amazing."
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And and I was like, "When's it coming out?"
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You're like, "We're figuring that out."
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But look at the here's the here's the test pressing.
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And I'm like, "You had the test pressing before the release date."
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Do you know how many artists have the release date and then freak the out cuz they don't have the test pressing?
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>> They're like, "Oh my god, our vinyl is coming in 6 months."
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You know, >> but it's from being in prison. Yeah, of course.
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>> It's from being in prison for me.
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>> Because in prison, uh, you can't do anything until you get released.
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But >> there's an important thing that I think a lot of people miss. It's your time to plan.
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you plan from what it's going to be.
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So every day that I'm in there, I'm spending it as wisely as possible.
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So now when I'm in my situation now where I'm like I got this record somebody was I was watching a video and somebody I think it was like dead end hip hop where they were like um they were saying how if I had a record with all these features and all these people
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I wouldn't be able to just sit on it like he like I'm like he he sat on this record for a while and I just you know for me that's that's the only way to do things you know >> the release date and working back from it and that comes from being uh behind bars. Yeah, the the storytelling on it
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Yeah, the the storytelling on it makes total sense and I appreciate you sharing that.
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The storytelling on this record is um I mean look, you know, you were making music before is he real?
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Is he real was a game changer though to the degree because the level of honesty that you showed on your life.
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I feel like um >> you know uh you're an author, you're a painter, you choose music to be your outlet and you market in a very broad way, >> you understand that language, too.
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>> But let's just put this through the filter of of books.
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Say you were writing books and you were telling your story and inspiring others by by by using your story to create proper like you know every time a little annual of who you were at your life.
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Is a real very important personal journey between you to some degree and your mother and your family. Yes.
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>> This one really is the book about about coming to terms with who you were and what got you into the prison cycle. Yeah.
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>> And the system and and it's so honest.
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I mean the last song is just >> so honest.
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It must be I guess there's a question here.
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Well, we're really not a Q&A kind of relationship. >> We can do that.
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>> No, but you know what I mean.
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There's a question here, which is um how does it feel in the moment to address those things from a creative standpoint?
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Realize you're using that as a key to unlock things that you probably been afraid to acknowledge in your life. >> Yeah, man. It's it's a relief. >> Honestly.
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Honestly, that's why I I love what I do so much because it's like people don't understand most of the joy that I get is is from the beginning stages of letting things out.
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I get to do that for a living.
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Um >> I get to almost, you know, >> treat my artist therapy for a living.
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And I, you know, a lot of that record was built from frustration that I had with people because I'm like, when I'm when I'm in in in in prison behind bars and and you know, you bet on the commanders game and you lose, you pay up.
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You don't see those same people every single day and you're not paying them what you owe them. That doesn't happen.
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You're not It could end really badly.
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And that's where I learned the importance of respect because when people respect you, you know, there's a saying in prison called man respect man.
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So I I was never in a gang or anything like that.
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I had people that that were that had love and respect for me.
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And the way that I carried myself in the things that I did even though I was quite young.
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And I think that for me that same principle carries on to how I deal with people.
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So, I'm not a person that doesn't like purposely doesn't get back to people.
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I do everything I can to remember if I can.
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And um I noticed that some people really like see your message and just blow you off and not respond to you in the music industry.
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And it didn't I didn't feel it until I became an independent artist again.
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>> That's when I realized, man, these people not responding to me for certain things that they said they do cost me a lot now.
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It's not like before where it's like I can just, you know, wait forever and then someone doesn't do it and I move on.
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It's like, yo, you're like, you're kind of messing with my livelihood.
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So, it comes back to that instinct and that feeling that I had when I was in prison.
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And then I'm like, but I can't do the things you would do in prison in that situation in real life.
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>> So, I put it in the music.
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So, that's why that the first part of this record is so sounds so angry. Yeah.
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>> Cuz cuz I'm looking at all these people.
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I'm like, "Yo, you don't even know the kind of person that I used to be.
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And I'm not trying to be that person right now, but you have no idea like the the risk that you may be putting yourself in just by >> Yeah.
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>> Cuz it's like I look at it like, yo, if I'm going to see you out one day, why are you not respond?"
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Like, you might see me in real life. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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>> And I have done that to people where I be like, "Yo, you didn't see my text." >> Yeah.
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>> I'm like, "Yo, you don't answer your phone, huh?" >> Yeah. Yeah.
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Or at least just keep it real with me.
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Either you didn't see it or you're too busy or you've moved on.
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But let's just get it clear. >> Yeah. Just don't play with me.
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Don't say you're going to do something and then try to duck me.
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You could say, "Oh man, it didn't work out the way that I thought."
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Or, you know, you could tell me I I'm an understanding person.
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Like I I'm reasonable, but to just kind of like dodge me and like >> more than that, you're principled.
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Like you don't expect anything of others that you don't expect of yourself.
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Yeah, >> I can say from experience that in matters of personal growth for me and things that I I thought you could help out with at various moments in life, you have 100% always honored that. >> And that's real life.
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That's like how you build and maintain relationships.
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Those expectations need to be both ways.
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And I know you really hold yourself at, as I said at the top of our conversation, you hold yourself to the highest standard. >> Yeah, 100%.
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And that's with what I make.
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That's what how I present what I make.
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>> Um that's with how I treat my fans and the people that support me.
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>> You know, I've I've I've gotten especially this week, man, this guy's such a genius at marketing and this that and the thing that and the third and I don't >> I don't care to be looked at as a marketer cuz that's not what I am.
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I This is based off survival.
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When I first got out, there was no manager or nothing.
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No industry in in do for you. >> Yeah.
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In Prince George's County, Maryland, you had to figure it out.
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I had to read mad articles and just do it. >> Yeah.
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>> So, it's a matter of survival in this industry for me.
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But when they say marketing, it's like, nah, you're downplaying it because it's not marketing.
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It's actually very simple.
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It's not to me it's not genius to me.
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It's like I literally just pay attention to my fans and I talk to my fans.
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I'm on Discord and signs. I'm lurking. They don't even see me.
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Like, they don't know that I'm on it.
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I'm like looking at them.
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They're like, "Man, we got this so and so's vinyl and it didn't even have an insert in it."
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And I'm like, "Oh, shoot.
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They care about the the inserts."
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Okay, they care about the experience.
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Like the the vinyls for me that are selling the most are the most expensive ones with the gatefold less >> that that one's going way quicker than the ones that are just standard >> and and lets me know people are willing to pay for the experience.
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So my whole thing is how do I create an experience for my fans they'll never forget.
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So you could tell me 10 different rappers right now, right?
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And you be like, "Oh, he flows better than you."
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or he has better bars than you or he sings better than you.
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Whatever you can say, but when it comes to presentation and giving my fans an experience, I don't know if anybody's with me. >> I would agree.
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No one else is, you know, bringing worlds that are vivid and tactile and oh, it's kind of fashion, but it's also athletics and sports at the highest level and there's danger and creativity and color and somehow you make it all make sense every single time.
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And I and I I'm not surprised that you I'm going to use this word you didn't >> perhaps some form of bristle at the term of it being marketing because it does it puts it in a box and it takes it away from what is real to you as you said which is you know what how can I make this how can I deepen my relationship with the people that love me. >> Yeah that's it.
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>> Marketing is actually about getting people who don't know you to know you.
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>> You know actually the principle of it or reinforcing that relationship.
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You're trying to make it more exciting for people >> every single time, >> right?
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>> But for lack of a better term, you do speak that language really well.
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Um, you do understand things that people get paid a lot of money to try to do for brands all the time.
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You just do it for your own brand. >> Mhm.
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>> Um, let's get into the music of it all.
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>> It starts with a a phone call. >> Yeah. in your words.
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Um, it starts with a phone call that I'm having with uh a friend of mine, D'Angelo Sneed, who I was in in prison with um who basically was the main person that told me I should take rap seriously when I was in there.
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And um and part of that idea of making the mixtape that came from conversations that I had through him uh at least the inspiration.
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So I I gave him a call um and or he gave me a call.
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Sorry, I answered and then um you know you go through the whole collect call thing and I almost pushed seven on accident what >> it would have made it um so you he can never call me again.
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I would have blocked them on accident. >> Wow.
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>> So I was like thank god I didn't press seven uh cuz it's like press seven to block this caller.
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So, I didn't do that and that's what I said.
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And then and then he just basically um is trying to hear the album.
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So, I play the album for him. >> That's how it starts. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Why did you start the album like that?
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What does it speak to the narrative of the record for you?
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>> I mean, this whole record is me tapping back into um where I was in that in that situation being in prison.
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um me actually going deeper into why am I so angry at these people that are playing, you know, what I call games with my livelihood and what I do in music. Why am I so angry?
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And and and then I kind of start to uncover all of that through this record.
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this record. even certain parts of it when it when it's like if you if you see how I reference women in certain music in certain songs for the my entire career I never went to the root of what that was until this record that's why I have a a song on there called misogynistical because it was like me
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coming to the realization that I feel these ways and I say these things um which by the way moving forward in what I do I'm kind of like cleaning all that up just cuz I've said everything I needed to say that is in that category and I just I just want to speak about women differently in in the the music that I'm making now. >> Then you're right on time to figure out
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>> Then you're right on time to figure out what a source of that kind of behavior was and and what did you learn by doing that song?
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>> I learned that it was from being in prison and my my first love came to prison to visit me and break up with me.
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>> So it's an abandonment issue. >> Yeah.
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It was a problem that I had and I was like I had to be in a at that time I was in 23-hour lockdown too.
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So meaning I get out of myself for one hour >> and all I could do is think about that. >> Yeah.
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>> So it's a it's a it's a crazy way to experience a breakup at in in your when you're 19. >> Yeah. It's very intense.
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And actually at that point as I've been told, you know, you're not abandoned anymore. You're rejected.
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Abandonment is what is what happens when you actually have no control over the situation and your parents abandon you or you feel abandoned by something or someone but you can't control it one way or the other. That's abandonment. >> Yeah.
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>> Rejection is when you have the illusion of control and someone takes it from you. >> Yeah. >> That's rejection. >> Yeah.
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And I mean that is um yeah that's field that will with you for your whole life unless you get to the root of that >> for sure.
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And then you couple that with how I don't think it's cool really anymore.
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I think it was cool to be somewhat misogynistic in rap music in general in the way that we um we present things.
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And listen listen, it goes both ways to some extent because there's some things that are cool that you know maybe women may be saying about uh guys now, right?
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But in my my mind and the way that I've kind of lived life and where I am now and the awareness that I'm able to have, I'm kind of like I'm off that. That was cool. Like cool, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I her. I did. >> You were angry. You were pissed off.
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And you were just getting inside that conversation again with yourself. >> Exactly.
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So that's why I'm saying this is therapy cuz it allows me to see these things.
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>> Do you do therapy outside of music?
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>> No, not not I've tried I've done it.
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Um I've had a a run in with it that was pretty decent to me.
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But uh they kind of were like you I swear to God the guy says literally you have I've been seeing you for a couple weeks now >> and you have a very high level of consciousness.
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and he let me know that I'd have trouble with finding um peers and even more trouble finding mentors.
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And he said, "But that's okay as long as you understand there's a lot of things you'll probably have to figure out on your own or or feel lonely about."
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>> And he said, "Look, call me when you when you're feeling something, but I believe you have a grasp on a lot of what's going on in your life." >> And he was right. >> Uh yeah.
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I mean, to some degree, I'm sure there's way more things I can uncover as time progresses, >> but more to the concept of um mandatory loneliness.
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>> Yeah, I mean, definitely.
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I'm I'm definitely like I have a way of thinking of things that may be simple to me, but for other people aren't necessarily simple to understand.
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>> Is that Do you think that makes you difficult for people to work with at times? >> Musically, no.
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I think I've like let go of so much.
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Like I've just I just know who I trust.
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I know who to listen to and I just do that.
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So musically, not really.
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Even like dealing with people like when I'm putting out records, distribution partners, whatever.
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>> Like if I see you got it over here, I'm not trying to mess it up.
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Like my last thing I want to do is like come and give you my two cents and then ruin everything, right? >> So no.
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>> So no. Um, I think just in in the sense of like finding love and and meeting people in that world of things, you know, that could be you have to understand where I'm coming from to understand that I mean no harm when when certain things that I may think because
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I I I say so many things that are people would consider profound and by the when I start off it might sound one way but when I finish and I get to explain and and land as people would say I think people understand where I'm coming from, but it's just can we get to the end of it? >> It's another exercise in patience.
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>> It's another exercise in patience. >> Yeah. Right. And trust. >> Yeah.
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>> And I want to talk about trust for a second if that's cool because it's one of those things that I'm sure when you emerge from a situation where trust isn't that forthcoming, you know, it's it's probably more whether it's your childhood where you're like, where's the trust in this relationship?
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Or can I put my trust in something or someone? >> Yeah.
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>> Build those foundations, those building blocks or whether you're in prison and you have peers around you who you say show you love.
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But then again, it it's an environment where people have got to survive and got to get through it.
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And >> yeah, >> so then you come out the other side, then you're in an industry and we know what the industry is is about and trust is hard to find here as well.
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>> So how do you establish a a trust with people?
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How do you function in your everyday life utilizing that word at a at a at a good level?
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>> Man, >> is that a fair question?
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>> Yeah, very fair question.
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You know how how I do it? I have this rule.
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Whoever I meet, I always trust them 50%.
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and uh based off of what their actions are and how they move and things. Yeah.
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If it gets below a certain amount, I probably won't I'll spend less time with you.
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>> If it gets above a certain amount, I'll be able to trust you more.
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And I think that's how I go into every situation.
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I don't I don't come in not trusting anybody cuz that's not I don't want to live my life like that.
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That's a you know what I'm saying?
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Like I can't I'm not very like cynical in that way or I think like everything could be I'm not really like that.
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I'm kind of just like, let me see what's up with you.
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Sometimes it it it works, sometimes it doesn't.
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Sometimes I learn, damn, I probably shouldn't have trusted that person 50%.
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But that's not going to stop me from doing it to the next person. >> You feel me? >> I do. I do.
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I think it's a really I've never heard that before.
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And I think it's a beautiful and balanced approach, man.
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I mean, you know, you're estab you're putting the silently putting a scale in front of people and we'll just see whether you go up or go down. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yes, sir.
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You said right back at the beginning of the conversation that you came up with the concept early on. >> Yes.
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>> And you're so conceptually driven.
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>> I I say that as a word to try to sum it up.
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Um I'm sure it's deeper and more complex, but the easiest way to sum it up is that, you know, you you you give us conceptual >> creative work. >> Yeah.
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Um, and we've talked about the idea of who you were or who you are and and we haven't talked about it, but I know that there is a timeline that establishes that this album was created around the same time you would have been released from prison for you for the term. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> But you've called it even the devil smiles and I and I'm trying to get to that side of it.
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The artwork, the name, all of it means something very clear to you.
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So I keep the mystery for the mystery, but tell us what you want. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
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Uh, even the devil smiles is just basically it's twofold.
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So when I got sentenced at 18, by that time I was 18.
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I got in trouble at 17, but I was 18.
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Um the people who were victims of one of the cases, cuz I had multiple, um that person, those people came to court.
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They're older, probably in their 30s, 20s, late 20s, 30s, and they had victim impact statements.
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And I can vividly see and remember um the guy in the case was like something along the lines of yeah, you know, this kid is the devil.
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If he is doing stuff like this at 17, imagine when he gets older.
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>> Is it the victim talking? >> Yes.
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Cuz they want me to get the maximum sentence.
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>> Um which was 15 years. Mhm.
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>> Uh and pretty much actually it rewind that it was it was like 80 years if you add up all the charges.
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Obviously you don't get I mean it's like very unlikely that they give you the max for everything on your first offense, but if you put everything together that that's kind of what it was.
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It was something like that.
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And and and so I remember them calling me the devil uh in that situation.
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And then when I reverse it back in the music industry, it's like there's so many people that actually are the devil, but they smile.
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And then there's me who I don't believe I'm the devil.
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And it's like I smile cuz I'm a real person.
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I'm I'm actually a good person.
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I just had a bad circumstance at a young age.
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And so that was what the concept of the entire like um um name comes from.
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And in this artwork, shout out to Mary Gold.
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It's it's it's like a guy with this crooked smile, like this grin almost.
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And I say I refer to the grin a lot in the record because to me the grin is like it looks like a smile but it it has something else behind it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Layers >> deep. Deep layers deep. >> Beautiful artwork. >> Thank you.
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>> Powerful, >> you know. Um wow.
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Powerful observation there about accepting and acknowledging your worth. Yeah, for sure.
24:48
>> Coming to terms with the fact that um you've made the most of a second chance and gotten a chance to to be someone you can be proud of.
24:55
>> Um on Scrambled eggs again, the last song um on the album, >> I still feel regret from the people I robbed.
25:01
My heart still hurt from the people I've harmed.
25:03
I still can't sleep from the pain that I've dealt.
25:06
>> And there's a follow-up line which I'm not going to quote. >> Yeah.
25:09
>> Uh you carry that with you still. >> Yes.
25:12
I I just also want to say and acknowledge I respect that you knew when to stop right with that one. Mhm. >> Thank you for that.
25:19
>> I think about it because >> it's that's why it's like I get upset when people think they get play games, right?
25:26
Cuz it's like, man, obviously I'm not this way anymore.
25:28
There's not there's nothing in my mind that was that thinks this is okay.
25:32
But at that time, I feel bad at the fact that I I have people's lives in my hands.
25:39
Maybe my intention was not to harm anybody, but I know that those people thought that they may not be here after today, after this moment.
25:49
Y >> and I was on the other side of that.
25:52
>> And as as a 17-year-old, you're not thinking about it that way.
25:56
>> You're kind of just like, >> yeah, I'm not going to do nothing.
25:58
I just need whatever I need.
26:02
But those people were were scared.
26:02
And that's why I feel regret cuz when I think about that, >> I'm like, man, >> yeah, >> they really they didn't know whether they would I just don't know how I could >> I don't like the feeling of that.
26:14
Sorry, I'm getting a little emotional, but you know, it's just it just makes me feel bad. >> Yeah.
26:20
As a music fan and a fan of your music, I see the power in uh music at its most courageous, right?
26:28
And the and it takes self courage to to create it.
26:34
It takes real courage to release >> and to execute and to share it.
26:38
>> Um >> the fact you're even having this conversation with me today.
26:40
Um it doesn't take anything away from the impact of of whatever anyone does to other people.
26:46
It's it's their experience.
26:47
But the fact that you're willing to acknowledge it and sit down and talk about it in the context of an album, I wouldn't be talking about it with you if you hadn't made the song. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
26:55
>> And I really really appreciate your honesty in this moment.
26:56
Um, of course, >> and I know others do because look at the kind of people you're working with on this record. >> Yeah. Yeah.
27:05
>> They want they they want to have that experience. >> Yeah. >> Aside. >> Yeah. Yeah.
27:10
>> You know, >> shout out. >> Shout out Aside. No ID. >> Yeah.
27:14
>> You know, Katra once again. >> Yeah.
27:16
>> I mean, you've got yourself a crew now who want to see where you are at certain points in your life. >> Yeah.
27:22
>> But you're a producer as well. >> Yes. Yes.
27:24
>> So, what are you getting out of that working with other people?
27:25
I like to complete ideas. I love completing ideas.
27:31
Um I start them here and there, but I like to complete them.
27:34
It's like uh solving like a Rubik's cube sometimes.
27:38
>> When a sample gets denied and you got to kind of figure out how to keep the feeling of the record and change. >> Oh yeah, conductor.
27:43
I cannot forget conductor. >> Yeah, conductor.
27:45
>> Soon as you mentioned samples, I'm like conductor. Conductor.
27:48
>> I think one thing people should understand about me that's really important is before I'm a rapper, I'm actually a producer. >> That's right.
27:53
That's what I do probably best.
27:56
And I was I was watching something where someone was, you know, reacting to some songs and they're like, "Man, whoever decided to put the reverb like this and do this thing right here, man, that was so and it's like, you know, I work with my my engineer Edin um and I think of these ideas and he's really good at executing them."
28:13
When you sat down with us in what was Jimmy's office, I think at the time here at Apple and played us, Is for the first time, >> I remember asking in the room, "Who produced this?" >> Mhm.
28:25
>> And Kirk, >> who's a mutual buddy, was working with you at the time.
28:29
>> He laughed and just waited for the answer.
28:31
And you were like, I did. >> Yeah. Yeah.
28:34
>> And I It shouldn't come as any surprise, but I just was like, this is such a thoughtful and and and developed body of work. >> Yeah.
28:41
>> For someone I barely know, >> right?
28:42
Um, so yeah, you're a producer first. >> Yeah.
28:46
And and and uh and I like the idea of creating a world, you know, that's that's like I I think a lot of people don't realize how seriously I take things when they say they're going to do something, right?
29:01
So it'll be like this producer said producer be like, "Yeah, let's do a project."
29:04
And I'm like, "All right, bet."
29:06
And then like two weeks later, like I might have 16 songs like, "Yeah, which so what do you want to do?
29:13
Let's get studio and finish."
29:13
And they're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up, bro.
29:16
I didn't know you really was like, no, I don't just say I don't say things. Just say them."
29:21
And then it then it becomes, >> uh, hold on, wait, wait, wait, let me just >> I'm I'm doing this over here.
29:28
And I'm like, "All right, man.
29:29
I'mma finish I'm going to take the beat and finish the beat. Here's what I did."
29:32
It's just because I just that's how I am.
29:35
I got to finish the thing.
29:38
If we say we're going to do the thing, I don't just do things to do them.
29:41
I am not a person who feels like I need to hold everything on my hard drive.
29:48
Um I think that if there's a point of view that I'm excited to tell the world and it can help a lot of people, I want to give it to them. >> Is that the trick? Just keep going. Consistency. >> Yeah.
30:00
For me, for me, I've released a project every year. >> Yeah. from since I started. That's just how I move.
30:06
I have two projects, three projects right now. This just came out.
30:13
I I'd already I already have the followup to this.
30:16
Actually, I have the vinyl.
30:18
Can I see it's behind you? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
30:20
Let's not show the cover yet. Not the cover. Not the cover. >> Yeah.
30:25
That's the most IDK thing IDK has said all day is maybe let's not show the cover yet. >> All right. Right.
30:31
You know how I am with the covers >> stages >> like uh the follow to this project. >> That's it. >> Yeah. >> Can I hold it? >> Yeah.
30:40
And and every You don't say the name though.
30:43
>> I'm not saying the name. >> No. No.
30:44
But but you know, funny people already know the name. They figured it out. They figured it out.
30:47
It's in the It's in the this project.
30:51
>> You know what's so crazy to me is that without even giving any details away, I'm really trying to kind of be a little bit cluck and dagger here.
30:56
>> Even just seeing the music >> in order Yeah.
30:59
>> with with with G in groove. >> Right. Right. Right. It's so crazy.
31:03
Like, I'm holding a complete body of work that >> there's been no release date, no announcement, no nothing.
31:07
Yet, it exists in physical form. It's so anti-modern. It's unbelievable.
31:13
>> It's the most antiquated like like approach to it's it's how it should be done compared to how people do it now. >> Yeah, for sure.
31:20
>> This is some crazy >> For sure.
31:21
It's It's >> Congratulations. >> I appreciate that.
31:23
Be careful with the grooves.
31:26
I I really do have the fans that'll look at the grooves and be able to >> That's why I'm trying to create That's why I wasn't even trying to count them.
31:33
I wasn't even trying to count them. >> Yeah.
31:34
Somebody I remember I was watching something and they were like, "Man, yeah, based off of the the thickness of the the vinyl cuz it was a skate fold, but they didn't know there's like it it has to have anywhere from this amount of songs to this amount of songs."
31:47
>> I thought that was so cool.
31:47
It's so flattering >> when my fans be like really on top of this. But I love that Discord.
31:52
It's like I'm watching like like reality TV or something.
31:57
>> But you built that world for for us to lean into because you know you you you peique our curiosity every time.
32:02
It's not like there's any expectation.
32:04
It's like you again try to fulfill you try to expand our levels of expectation. >> Exactly. Exactly. That's all. Every time. >> All right.
32:13
Let's talk about some of the people that show up on this record.
32:15
Um there's some people you that we we that we know that you love to work with. Push the tea. Once again, DMX. >> Mhm.
32:23
>> You know, we've talked about DMX a little bit here and there on the record, but it's got to the point now where I feel >> it goes beyond the trade of that ever was.
32:30
But you know what I mean?
32:30
Like >> you obviously have a a great relationship with the family and the estate of DMX who wouldn't continue to give you license to use his >> creative spirit on your music. >> Right.
32:44
>> So, in your own words, what does that relationship mean to you?
32:47
someone who was as impactful and influential as and remains as DMX.
32:53
>> I think DMX is the most authentic rapper ever period.
32:57
Um I remember there was a situation that he had to be honest about and he's like I don't lie and it was like one of those things where a lot of people probably wouldn't just be upfront about but it's like one thing I don't do is lie.
33:11
>> And if you look at what he did in the time he came out because I obviously I was young so I had to go back It was like very much like anti what a rapper was at that time.
33:23
>> And nobody has done that since the way that he has.
33:26
And I think it becomes that becomes evident that he's extremely authentic to who he is in his DNA.
33:31
And that's why like he's always going to be one of the goats for me period.
33:36
Like I I'm heavily influenced by what he does.
33:42
I'm always striving to be uh that true to myself.
33:45
I think I'm very true to myself, but to that degree, I I want uh that's something I want to accomplish.
33:52
>> One of the things that people really and continue to respond to in relation to DMX's music is his deep connection to the spiritual and the fact that he could be very authentic and talk to his experience from a street level and speak to that, but he also was taking people to church.
34:10
He was creating a spiritual experience as well.
34:12
Striving to to to create something bigger than himself or bigger than whatever we do on this planet like there's a there's God to serve. >> Yeah.
34:20
>> Um >> I've never asked you this man.
34:22
What's your relation what's your spiritual foundation?
34:26
What is your relationship with the other? >> Oh with God.
34:28
Uh I believe I believe in God heavily.
34:32
I believe in um and by the way I want to clarify so people understand God could be the universe.
34:39
It could be the other what you just said.
34:41
It could be Allah, whatever you want to call it.
34:43
But it's the fact that it's whatever or whoever engineered the the solar system in the world that we live in here.
34:52
I cannot believe that it just happened out of coincidence.
34:58
There's too many things that uh that are um very well calculated for this world to go around.
35:04
So I believe in a higher power for sure.
35:08
power for sure. when where or when or how do you feel closest to that higher power in your life if there was some commonality to the experience >> uh when I create cuz I I don't write 90% of the stuff it it's these thoughts that are profound that >> new information for me you're a non-writer >> no I don't write um I not to say that I
35:30
don't want to start getting back into writing um I'm actually writing my first book right now >> it's great >> yeah it's this philosophical memoir and I I just kind of go on my voice notes and I like talk into it and then I do my edits from there and it's similar to the process of making music for me except it's a lot easier because I don't have to make it rhyme. >> So it's that's the the but I'm so used
35:55
>> So it's that's the the but I'm so used to making it rhyme that it's you know >> maybe it works in reverse sometime and so maybe maybe this will happen over time as well.
36:04
I mean, having the the framework of of stanza or couplet or whatever you want to call it and having the the desire to make it rhyme, sometimes it it gives you a sort of restriction in vocabulary that allows you to to zero in on what you're trying to say a little more.
36:16
Like when you have the whole glossery in front of you and you're searching for the right word to sum up a feeling, it's like >> I don't know.
36:22
I have huge respect for people who get deep into the written word >> cuz I'm not that either.
36:27
I go on the microphone and say >> Yeah. Yeah. Fair.
36:30
I really respect people who make decisions.
36:34
And when you have to write a book, you've got to make decisions every time you put a word on the page. >> Mhm. >> Every time. >> Yeah.
36:43
And I think that for me, that's a a very pleasant experience in expanding, you know, my writing.
36:50
But even back to the original thing, that's when I'm the closest, you know, to as you would say the other um it's it's through that because I I be saying words I'm like I didn't know I knew that word and I used it perfectly. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean?
37:07
Or I'm like, >> whoa, this happened to me in my life and I didn't realize that.
37:12
I didn't realize that. Like for I mean for example the song that we mentioned earlier I like >> oh yeah this is this is why >> yeah it's crazy how you um >> you know we all have this inner voice and I I think depending on how loud it is or what it's trying to tell us we
37:30
have ways to distract ourselves from it or dull it or whatever you know >> um but music doesn't really exist great art doesn't really exist unless you are willing to come face to face with it >> yes >> and have a conversation with yourself Yes, I 100% agree with that wholeheartedly. >> I want to focus a little bit on No, I
37:46
>> I want to focus a little bit on No, I this legend from Chicago who whenever he shows up on any record and whatever however he touches the record, whether it's a complete project like like 444 or whether it's >> putting his his his creative on this album um feels like an event. >> Yeah.
38:06
Something about it just feels like an event.
38:08
Like he understands how to elevate his contribution to the point where it's like he's like James Cameron.
38:16
>> It's like if James Cameron's did a music video, it' still be James Cameron. >> Right. Right. Right. >> You know what I mean?
38:20
It would be like that's not good.
38:21
It's like no, it's James.
38:23
>> Uh so, so what's it like to work with him?
38:26
And he doesn't work with many anymore. He's very selective.
38:29
I'll say this, I have a lot of experience working with the people that don't like to work with a lot of people. That's right.
38:37
>> So, by this time, it's kind of like uh him specifically, >> he sent me a bunch of things. I sent things back.
38:44
I added things to it and stuff.
38:48
And I remember one time he was like, "Usually, you know, I send it, someone sends it back to me, then I do."
38:54
He's like, "But you kind of got that."
38:57
Like, so it's like, "Cool."
38:57
He was one of the people that like really emphasized emptying out your hard drive. >> What does he mean?
39:04
>> It's like you got so much stuff on your hard drive, bro.
39:07
>> He's like he's like, "Man, we need to start making beats.
39:08
You don't even really be shopping beats to nobody or nothing."
39:11
He's like, "We should just get in and just make beats and then give them to people, >> you know?"
39:16
and that he put a battery in my back actually to have these three records done because he was one of the first to kind of come at me with a you know we should put out three records this year. >> Yeah.
39:29
>> You know, white, >> right? Right.
39:30
So, it started like that and then I had like the three records and it was like, "All right, wait. You know how I do."
39:35
So, it's like we have to, you know, put it all together the right way.
39:40
But, yeah, now working with him, you know, he's extremely inspiring.
39:43
I've been wanting to work with him forever.
39:45
I I was so excited at the prospect of us doing anything. >> Yeah.
39:49
And I mean, you know, you two of you have incredible creative chemistry.
39:52
I mean, there are incredible songs on this on this record. There's some surprises.
39:55
Um >> COP cop, >> you went for that kind of Beasties energy that Rat Boy Beasties energy.
39:59
Um same could be said that early Beasties energy that Joey and Bray bring.
40:04
Um this der from Australia that just, you know, everybody down under in parts of the world just love their energy.
40:09
But, you know, I like the fact you keep us guessing and you find some kind of uh again kindred creative spirit with people that on paper people might go, "Oh, I can't wait for IDK to discover Joey Valance." >> Yeah.
40:24
>> So, what what draws you to them and how important is the person versus the talent?
40:28
What's the ratio you're looking for here?
40:30
>> It depends on how I come across them.
40:32
The talent is probably going to be the most important first because that's how I even want to do something.
40:36
And I was like going to like a I got invited to this uh Balenciaga show in like it was like in LA or something like that and they sent me this interesting you know uh invite.
40:50
It was like a metal chocolate bar and I thought this was cool.
40:52
I was like I don't be using Tik Tok and all that enough.
40:56
Let me just try to make one.
40:58
and it suggested a song to me and the song was I don't remember the name of the song but it was a Joey Valance and Bray song and it's the one that's like running and running and running and running and running and I'm like who is this?
41:13
This is crazy and I was like I got to see who these people are and I used the song by the way. Yeah.
41:20
>> And I go to go look and I'm like these guys.
41:23
And then I just started looking at all their videos and stuff and then I'm like I got to reach out and they were like, you know, stoked that I reached out.
41:31
So it was very organic in that way.
41:34
Sent me a couple records and then they sent me Clover. What it was at the time.
41:37
It was called Tribe Yeah. >> At the time. >> And I did my verse.
41:40
>> And I did my verse. I did another verse and then I kind of sent it back to them and I had like a hook idea with like a saxophone originally and then they ended up not actually using it on their project >> and it was aside who was like wait what's that that record right there he
41:56
was like that's that would go crazy in festivals and I wasn't thinking about things like that I was just kind of like I like this one I don't like this and he's like nah man he brought like a psychology to it he's like you need to finish that so that's when I took it. I
42:09
I work with uh Johnny uh he plays the piano and then we created that hook section.
42:16
Um and then we modernized it is what I would say.
42:20
Um and then that turned into the song and I sent it back to them and they're like, "Yo, that second that middle section is crazy. >> It's so unexpected."
42:29
And I remember playing it for ASA and he was like, "That's pretty bold."
42:36
>> Like, >> is that is that true? >> Yeah.
42:38
He was like, >> "That's pretty bold." I see. I see. I see.
42:41
He was like, "I mean, I wouldn't have done that, but maybe."
42:45
>> And uh and I just >> honesty, >> but it's my point of reference isn't 1991 rap.
42:51
My point of reference isn't Beasty Boys.
42:54
My point of reference is Damon Alurn and Gorillas. So, I'm thinking that.
42:58
And I think I even had them on the screen >> because I like to have different people on the screen when I'm making music >> that is like the opposite of the song if I can think of it.
43:07
And I was like >> boom Damon Albert.
43:12
>> And then I'm like I want to just I just want to do something left field.
43:14
I know it's going to probably be annoying to people if they just want the hip-hop thing part of it.
43:18
But I throw some autotune. I don't care.
43:20
And that's what I did with the middle section of that song.
43:24
And um and funny enough, cop, same thing.
43:28
A-side, >> I wasn't going to put it on the project.
43:31
I didn't want to play it for him cuz if if anyone knows, A-side is uh people can be afraid to play their music for him cuz he's very honest. I love that.
43:37
And that and I embrace that part of our relationship.
43:42
And I was trying to not play that record.
43:43
I was like, "Let me play the record."
43:44
He's like, "Yeah, it's cool, cool, cool."
43:46
And I was like, "By the way, I got this little and I played and he's like, "That's the best thing you played me all day." He's like that.
43:55
And it's funny cuz I was like I thought that he wouldn't with this.
44:00
I thought people wouldn't with this.
44:01
He So for I say all that to say he's like one of the people that I trust.
44:05
Like he he'll like be like, "Yo, this is what it is. This is what I think."
44:09
>> Well, you can do anything.
44:09
But you need You're right.
44:10
You need people in your life that are going to hold you to some standard that perhaps you might be uh sidstepping. >> Yeah.
44:22
>> Out of the interest, out of the excitement around it could be something new that you made.
44:24
We all fall in love with the new thing we made.
44:27
We all fall in love with the new thing. >> We all do. It's new.
44:33
>> The only people who like new music are the artists who make it.
44:34
Everyone else is like, I need this to be familiar for me. >> Fair.
44:39
Uh, you know, you need someone who's going to be like, "No, you know, especially when you can turn your hand to to anything."
44:44
I mean, >> and also I like how you bring people into your world.
44:47
I mean, Mad Lib has such a definable sound.
44:49
Kronatard has such a definable sound, but I feel like you meet them in the middle. >> Yeah.
44:55
Sometimes I do it cuz it's cool.
44:57
Sometime I do it cuz I have to.
45:00
>> So, it depends on the producer, you know?
45:03
>> Tell us some Madlib story because again, Mad Lib showing up at the moment. Not Not all the time. At the moment. Yeah, not all the time.
45:09
>> I I don't know if Mer even >> By the way, I want to clarify that by showing up I mean actually showing up.
45:14
Not showing up through quality quality 100% all the time.
45:17
I mean actually, you know, around. >> Yeah.
45:20
I don't I don't know if Mad Lib even has a a phone, you know.
45:22
I >> I have never communicated directly with him in any of the process. >> Never. >> Never.
45:30
Um it's either it's always through somebody.
45:34
uh Talibi, he was the one who kind of facilitated a lot of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um >> Wow.
45:43
>> And um Phil Agony also as well like >> so with that it was a batch of I think I tweeted one day I was like I want to do some I don't I want to work with Mad Live and then I get a email or a text from uh I think it was Egon or Will from Kronite team who got the stuff from Egon.
46:02
Egon. It's like all this got this thing from this person from that person and now I got the beats >> and I sat on those beats for years and I didn't do anything with them >> and then this started happening and then you know I was like a man I want to I want to do a project
46:16
>> and I started making a whole mad little project and it was like 14 songs did it in like two weeks >> and then it was like most of that was either taken can't find a sample I was going to say >> it was all kinds of >> This is where your patience might kick you in the ass. I'm so glad you said it
46:30
I'm so glad you said it cuz I was sitting here really quietly going, "You sat on mad limp beats."
46:37
That's now that aside is bold. >> Very much so.
46:42
So, so, so, but shout out to Quali, bro, cuz he he was really the one who guided me through.
46:49
He's like, "Look, man, sometimes you just got to take matters into your own hands with some of the work, and if he he with it, then you can put it out."
46:58
>> I was going to say, it's not like it's going to make any difference if you're in the room with him anyway. Isn't it?
47:02
Doesn't it go that he prints something, gives it to you, and that's it? >> No stems, nothing.
47:05
That's the That's the beat.
47:07
You might not have the sample. >> You get the print.
47:10
>> You have to find one of one.
47:12
>> You have to have a a a friend who has a record collection in London that happens to have the sample.
47:19
>> Who knows what that is. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
47:21
Because that's that's legendary that you know, okay, there you got to accept that some people aren't going to understand what we're talking about.
47:28
about. Most producers will work with you perhaps in the studio and you'll get stems and separates from that experience or even if it's done via the magic of we transfer they'll send you the stems and then you can depending on your relationship decide how deep you want to
47:41
collaborate and adjust and do oh can you drop this dip this move this move that >> right >> no no no uh there fun fact >> crazy I love it >> I I didn't have the stems for at least 80% to 90% of this record I was talking to K the other day I was like yeah bro You probably wondering how I like D. I
47:58
I was like, "Bro, can you not send me these stems, bro? These are MP3s." >> What?
48:04
>> This whole album >> you mastered straight off of MP3s.
48:09
>> Now we're in real nerd mode.
48:09
But let me You know what? You get one for that. >> I can't believe that. Wow.
48:14
You give hope to all of us guys who can't mix. All of us girls.
48:19
All of us people who can't mix. Man, not anyone can mix.
48:21
It's a really tough skill.
48:24
You're telling me I can just do something on Logic, like how it sounds, and go master that Thank you, brother. >> Yeah, of course.
48:31
>> Well, there's a lot of things that we did though that were really important.
48:34
Um, >> when it was done, >> I bounced every song to tape.
48:37
So, we printed it all on tape >> to give it this level of like it compresses it just that just a little more and gives it a little bit more saturation.
48:48
So maybe the things that you would feel on a digital MP3 low quality you you would gain back to some degree >> or you use that particular some people may say lack of quality let's call it sonic d like dynamic sound >> that unique value of what it is >> to its advantage. >> Exactly.
49:09
>> You actually lean into the flaws. >> Exactly.
49:12
You think about Mad Villain, right?
49:14
It's like I don't think that was the most uh the best mi mixed album of all time, but that sounds so good. I know.
49:26
>> And that's why I like textures.
49:26
Like Mad Lib has these certain textures and Kinatada has these textures that they play around with and that's the that's the charm. It's the charm. Yeah.
49:37
>> And that's why I decided to mix my vocals so clean. It's the balance. It's like the balance.
49:41
Normally people be like, "Oh, it's lowfi, so let me mix my vocals lowfi."
49:45
But I was like, "No, I'm gonna do the opposite.
49:47
I'm gonna make the vocals sound really really clean and on top, and then I'm gonna make the the the sample and the beat and all that stay, you know, have that charm."
49:58
>> Well, if you're in a conversation, if you met somebody and and you had, I don't know, you went out for a drink with them or whatever and and you showed up dressed like you're dressed looking fantastic, right? >> Thank you.
50:09
>> Well, you mean you always dress brilliantly, right?
50:11
You know, you have a real life of fashion and you wear and you wear what you wear really well. >> Thank you.
50:16
>> And then I showed up and you're like, "Oh, man. All right.
50:18
You're looking pretty casual."
50:20
I'm like, "Oh I feel pretty casual next to you."
50:24
>> Well, we're going to get on just fine. >> Right.
50:26
>> It's like you're letting the the music be the music and be itself and be what it needs to be and then you can just make it make sense. >> Yeah. Yeah.
50:32
because I think it's all about honesty and a lot of the times things were lowfi the way they were because they just didn't have the resources to do it the way that maybe I could.
50:43
My me being honest is I like clarity especially in vocals.
50:45
It's the it's the balance between >> Well, of course you do. You're a vocalist.
50:52
As long as you sound louder than everything else, it doesn't really matter, is it? >> Exactly. No. >> Am I wrong? >> No. >> No.
51:02
Um, but but for me it's where the old meets the new, the balance between what was and what is or what's coming.
51:11
And if I look at anytime I rap on something that feels old school, I'm like, how what's the thing I could do to bring it to tomorrow, you know?
51:19
>> And and I always like do that in every aspect.
51:22
I we spent we had to print that record like four, five times cuz it'll be like, oh shoot, the sample didn't get clear, but we already in mastering.
51:28
So I'm like, "Yo, Mike Bosi, hey, we got to can I can we uh sorry, we got to return.
51:35
So we got to run the east west, go reprint it, then come back, do it."
51:37
And then I was like, "Oh, wait, but this is off."
51:41
And then we got to stop that. Come back.
51:43
>> Which must be maddening for somebody who spends so long trying to dial into every detail to get it to a point where you feel like it's in in the the order of things and then this shit's just out of your control, right? >> Yeah.
51:53
But I love what I love about it. >> Yeah.
51:55
is with vinyl and printing things.
51:59
It kind of forces you to like be like that's what it is >> because the digital way of doing things for me has always led to lastm minute changes >> because I had too much choice >> and I had to just like this is the record bro it's on wax this is the
52:14
record unless it was like something really really crazy that was going to be a big problem is this is the record I'm working on the next record instead of like nitpicking and nitpicking sometimes you'll mess it up by doing that. Yeah, Yeah, you were.
52:26
>> You know, so you just got to know when to stop.
52:29
>> You're working on the next next record.
52:30
You've got the next record.
52:31
>> The next and the next >> and the next.
52:32
This will wrap up something.
52:34
This next one will wrap up something for you.
52:35
Will it clear the way for something new? >> Yes. Yes.
52:38
This next one um it's this this next one's going to be speaking to this one. M.
52:48
>> And uh if you look on the back of the cover, um when you flip it over, there's a So, you flip it over, there's a So, it's a double-sided cover.
52:56
It's a double-sided cover. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see. Yeah. Yeah. So, you got the Yeah. Okay. The devil is smiling.
53:02
>> And when you take this one, >> put it together. >> Careful. Careful. >> They'll connect. >> Oh, I see. >> Oh, yeah.
53:10
>> There's writing on there. >> Wow. Amazing.
53:12
when you connect them, you'll see they connect with each other, but they're polar opposites of each other.
53:19
>> It's kind of my duality because one thing I used to do a lot, and I love that I did this, but I'm kind of done with it. I'm over this.
53:26
>> I would take a record and put all different types of flavors in it.
53:28
Like it'll be like there's the Afro V song and there's the like hip-hop song and then there's a trap song and then there's this song and that song and >> and I love that.
53:37
That's what I think helped is he real kind of uh get shaped the way that it did.
53:43
It's all my influences growing up.
53:45
Me being born in London, grew up in DC, went to prison, then start teaching class at Harvard, then start like my parents are African, uh Sir Leoneian and Ghanian, like all these different flavors were in a record like that with one linear story or concept.
54:04
Now, moving forward, this is like the first time I was like, "This is a rap record. That's what it is." >> Yeah.
54:11
>> I have a little bit of melodies here and there, but this is a rap record. >> Yeah.
54:15
>> This one is a the polar opposite of this record, but this record is speaking to this record and and and you'll be able to understand what I mean by that later when it's when it's together.
54:26
>> This just gets better for me as a fan of your music.
54:29
also the opportunity to talk to you.
54:31
Um, it just reminds me that there's a really fresh conversation every time someone comes back as long as they're honest. >> Yes.
54:40
>> And they've got something to talk about that happened inside of them like >> today or recently.
54:45
>> There's always new new territory to travel and new things to mine.
54:47
Um, >> so you know where I am. >> Yeah.
54:51
>> And it's not just me, by the way.
54:51
I'm sure I'll be getting a call from Ebro like, "Fuck, you got Jason?
54:54
What the is wrong with you?"
54:58
You have to wrestle for that >> I got I gota pull up on you to go see Ibra, man.
55:02
Please pull up on Ibra because otherwise, you know, I'll get that text. >> Love you, man. >> Love you too, bro.