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I think that's only a question I've only really been able to ask myself in the last little while is what is the experience of actually of me for me now in this moment and that's something that's I'm sitting in a chair and you
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know I'm being present and there's mindfulness in that and there's always stuff you know but I find that when I do step back and I have that time to stand away from representations of myself and that I can tune into to me again
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[Music] it's rare that you hear an album that um can put you in this beautiful uplifting reflective space you know it gives me very strong warm feelings of my youth that song that kind of wonderful sort of loping rolling ores of all Kurt Smith Tears for Fears like everything's gonna be okay yeah yeah that was yeah that's a feeling there was Madness in making this record like some really deep heavy work went into finding your voice on this
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album and that the only way you can open the curtains and make me feel like you do when I hear damage gets done with the beautiful brilliant Brandy is if you go through this I mean it's it's like no album I've heard in a long time Hozier
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congratulations I don't know how you've covered as much ground as you have it's it's like you've been traveling the land for centuries thank you very much um that's quite a that's quite an introduction thank you I'm not sure I
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think for me any experience of Love or any experience of Joy or lightness like that that is sort of captured in some songs like that which gets done you can experience it without uh without a an equal helping of grief and yet most
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albums when you listen to them seem to hyper focus on one or the other in equal measure over a career or Journey here's my heartbreak record here's my recovery record here's my lost record here's the one I love that others
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won't love but you'll love later and it seems like you have somehow tackled a lot of it in one body of work without even I don't even know if you even realized you were yeah I I knew that there was a lot of light and shade on the record for sure I knew that it was gonna be I mean part of the theme or part of the idea of touching on these themes that are all kind of universal and like playing with this idea of circles you know and
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that I knew that it was it was thematically going to be brought but there's also yeah like you can't to reckon with it's like any experience of of of it falling in love or parting ways or reflecting upon that after the fact
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or experiencing it in the moment it's nothing is ever perfectly good no moment is ever you know is ever it's sort of every every experience is alive with men with a multitude of things I think we could obsess with trying to capture the
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perfect moment when all we really need to acknowledge is that one moment leads to the next yeah exactly yeah and the actuality of the moment itself and and the reality of what you're experiencing in that moment this is a big circle and
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this album is a big circle I mean I feel like you've this is one of life's big circles I don't know how many big circles we go through in life I'm sure it's a mathematical equation because I think everything ultimately as I get
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older I realize everything kind of is but I but I you know I think we go through multiple circles in our life I think Dante his Inferno reflects a big circle yeah yeah so so this um this kind of poem you know a few centuries old
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very significant piece of literature but the way what I found interesting about it I guess there's a part of me after let's say look the last three four years of like you know Global pandemic Etc there's a part of me as a songwriter that's
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absolutely allergic to writing to writing about the specific experiences of that that's so funny because I just to quickly say like I I came back to conversation when the world began to open up and almost made this unrealistic framework that we shouldn't discuss the pandemic and then realized how can we ignore it how can we ignore it exactly it was um so so to sort of at least acknowledge it and credit that that that we all had our
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own little journey into the into that you know we all had the potential of great loss jobs disintegrated there was a huge amount of sea change drama huge amount of trauma the context for how we understood Our Lives the context for how
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we understood the simplest of social interactions changed entirely we're still trying to figure that out yeah it just drive down the middle of Los Angeles and see how people are reacting to one another and I was still trying to
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figure that out 100 so I suppose this this poem um Inferno yeah that that hears the story of a man who finds his way into new conditions new circumstances and walks through this dark space but in in a in a in a realm that he arranges into circles describes as being arranged into circles and so as he gets deeper and deeper into this place and then finally comes out the other side of the world yeah and sees the sky again for the first time in a
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long time yeah so I just if not writing about the specific uh experiences of lockdown or pandemic but at least acknowledging or nodding to here was a journey that I felt you know it was worth crediting in the last three years
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and I feel all of us kind of experienced in one way or another very clever writing man and I know that's it's almost like a it's hard to put the word clever and writing into without making it sound overly cerebral but I can't think of a different way to put it
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because ultimately you have to figure out what it means to you personally before you can write about it to write about it in specifics hard for us to take it in because all of us are dealing with the pandemic in our
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own way some people are mocking it like I remember that thing other people are still dealing with the traumatic Fallout of it so my question is did you turn to this literature for you or did you turn to it as a writing tool order one and
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form the other I think I think I turned to it first for me yeah I hadn't I had no idea that it would be as inspiring as it would be I'd always wanted to to go to this point some part of me as a you know as a like as a Lyricist I
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suppose I had all these poems that I wanted to approach all these kind of I never did out of fear in case it basically I always think when I don't want to go to certain things because I'm worried that it's like I'm gonna feel
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smaller it's gonna affect me in a negative way because it's so much like oh my God what am I doing with my life yeah it is there is those Works isn't there that's that's the funniest thing there's so many there's all these masterpieces that were kind of I can't I can't face up to it I can't face them very human yeah it is very human I'm glad to hear you say that because there's plenty of stuff that I'm just like I can't do it we're all scared of
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deep down bro of all that stuff yeah yeah so when you finally went to it what did it what was the feeling um the feeling was you know what I was always ah there was always some part of me and this is like the Macabre part of
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me and those are kind of like you know uh ever even since I was a child I just wanted to hear this like long very descriptive very visual telling of a man walking through hell hell you know in a very visual way and it's so inventive
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and then so there's there's that part of me but then also there's this at that time the first time I had time to do it was let's say March 2020 where and it was this time where you know news reports were were just coming in we're
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sort of making sense of of numbers or death numbers Etc but most of us are drinking wine watching Family Feud pretending this thing was gonna last two weeks homie went straight into Dante's photos to be fair to be fair I was like
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making myself like too like I was like I've been on the road for two years so to have my kitchen again I was like making long breakfasts sitting and sitting outside just figuring it out yeah a third cup of coffee you know it's
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2 p.m I'm Still Still nibbling on you know whatever yeah so slow slow mornings I was I was taken in my Comforts where I could and I think all of us were yeah because all of us had been like you know finally the hamster wheel had stopped
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spinning well we were in denial I mean you know we were in this is this very strange as trauma and tragedy was going on all around us many of us were trying to figure it out I think the default position was was denial and denial
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allows you to go searching for for these kind of Comforts as you say this kind of security of the unknown as it became as it starts want to fold it became uh unfathomable yeah for sure for sure we handle this is this escapism you know
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that we were we were leaning into but there's this yeah so I had these time to this time to read these poems that there's always that part of me being I must I should read these you know as The College Dropout the voice in my head being like you did but this is one line there's a few lines in this poem one he approaches the door in hell you know and there's that abandon all hope you under here and there's a few lines in it that
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that that resonated with me at this time when there was so much potential energy hanging in the air of potential loss you know we're still Reckoning with every all of us knew somebody we could lose all of us you know but it one of the
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lines in the earlier part of that passage as Dante imagines it he says it says above the door through me you enter into the population of loss and it just felt at that time that here we kind of a lot of the great deal of the world was
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standing at this threshold uh potentially were Reckoning with entering into that population of loss and I feel that that statement in itself and it permeates through the album there's a lot of um letting go and realizing you have very
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little control over the things that swirl around you that ultimately take control of your life and of your narrative or guide you in a different direction that that it almost gives you a choice that you don't have it's like
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through me you will yeah but you really have no choice because life is about that pain at times yeah totally and I think you know I think if you live long enough in this world and look this is it's it's fun to play with stories about
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or imaginings about hell I don't believe that place exists I think it's good that we free ourselves from it but I think if you live along and live long enough on this in this world uh you will pass through your own realm your own little
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hell realm and you'll come out the other side you know and yes I think all of us do that in our own ways it's not very Irish of you to not acknowledge the existence of Hell the impending doom that hangs over your shoulder if you're
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not a good Irish we believed in it we were taught about it long enough you know what I mean yeah you can free ourselves from it now so how do you establish a voice as a songwriter coming from a long history and lineage of faith
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and a family and of this idea of like toe some line otherwise there is some unspeakable reality waiting for you it's not just the Irish man it's a part of life it's a part of living on this planet how do you reject that true art and become and find your own voice because that stuff is instilled especially in our generation and up until very recently I feel totally there's a few now and I don't want to get into because I I don't I don't want
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to give the impression like I'm a great reader in any way shape or form I'm really not your colors drop out exactly I'm not a bookish man right I'm not really not but there's a few artists I'd point to in that because that is a
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real thing it's like the pressure of the pressure of of of of of of of place of of nation the pressure of whatever group group faith of these identity signification of showing up exactly yeah is it but there's a few artists so
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Sheamus Haney as opposed he talked a lot about that and this this this and this pressure of being part of a group of representing something and but there's a great book The Portrait of the artist portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
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but James Joyce he goes into real depth about that and he was growing up as a young man in the beginning of the 20th century when Ireland was making sense of its of its new of a new revolutionary identity and also you had this whole
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movement where people were Reckoning with with the legacy of the church and how that had failed failed the people Etc and um he talks at length he refers to Ireland as um this is a nation that that wants to throw Nets around you as
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you as you as you want to fly you know that um those these nets of of of religion religious identity National Duty Etc so is that very private little path that you walk as an artist which is well where am where am I in in all of
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this where am I in all of this world when did you discover the James Joyce piece I was a I was in my late teens maybe I was it makes a lot of sense it obviously had a huge impression on you because not to be too churlish or Draw to direct the comparison it would be a bit tasteless to do so but it's not like you didn't take that baton and run with it with early on in your songwriter no I I certainly I certainly did I certainly
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did it resonated hugely with me and there's there's lyrical references there's nods to there's the last so the way that book works I mean in that sort of Joyce changing style the beginning of it is is is this kind of it's kind of
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this proxy autobiography and Stephen deadless is this character that he sort of puts a lot of them lives through exactly and in the beginning he writes as a child in his child memories he sort of writes in these very simple sentences
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but by the end it changes to first person perspective where he's in these journals diary entries he's sort of stepping into his own Vision he's stepping into himself and there's this diary entry talks about he's taking a
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boat to the continent for the first time and he's leaving Ireland and that um he refers to these young men who are around whom are also do doing that um shaking the wings it refers to these as his can as his countrymen shaking the
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wings of their of their uh exultant and terrible youths but some some of those um some of those lines might find their way into into my first album and there's a pawn there's a from sheamusini Station Island uh collection where he he
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imagines and he pulled a lot from Dante in this and he wrote it in tourism as well too in Dante's interlocking three uh three triplets in these interlocking triplets where he goes to lockdurg a retreat that I went to as a child we all
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a lot of Catholic schools go to us where St Patrick's Hermitage and he imagines James Joyce coming to him as a spirit as a shade much like his Dante experiences and James Joy's moxom and tells him like what are you doing here like you know
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could I sound your note when this when the circle is made white you have to swim out into the element and sound your sound your note you know um and it's a very very beautiful piece and he reflects upon that that passage
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and and I didn't realize how significant it had been to other artists he reflects that he writes in that poem about the date of that diary entry uh like a revelation yeah like a revelation yeah I mean it's incredible when you think
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about the way that art creates its own timeline long beyond our comprehension as artists or as human beings um you put something out into the world of course you recognize the transfer of energy anybody with half a brain recognizes
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that we're not static beings that exist only within our flesh and Bone it's all just manifestation of the energy required to share and grow and evolve right that's that's how everything happens but little I know too many artists I've met a few but not too many who would allow themselves the presence of mind or at least the self-awareness to recognize that every statement ultimately leads to another did you realize when you were making that first
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album in particular 10 years on from church which had been very open about talking about recently because of the impact that song continues to have did you did you even acknowledge yourself the the um that presence of mind to realize that the statement you were making would ultimately have the potentially the same impact that those pieces of literature had on others certainly not too heavy yeah I think it was too heavy I was proud of that song
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and I and there was some part of me deep down if I could admit this that felt that song needed to be written and it needed to be written for me and this was you know I was an unsigned unknown uh Irish musician I had never like I'd
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never sold out of whelans you know I'd never played a whelans you know what I mean that like I was doing I was doing open my cover covered songs and stuff like you know so to to write that I imagined that it might be appreciated
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by a small uh group of people but you had that feeling in your gut that you knew you'd captured something you'd been striving for in your life up to that point something magical that had to be written I I felt proud of it I felt it I
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had executed I'd executed the the ideas behind it as best I thought the craft is in place yeah I felt I felt good good about it I will say that yeah were you surprised in hindsight looking back and now how much everybody wants to talk
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about that song still not just because of the craft and the beauty of that song but also what it's gone on to represent and ultimately without even meaning to to some degree predict that other songs haven't shown up alongside it to some degree it still stands in a small group yeah I think I think in in my field or in my song tradition there's not a huge amount of of of of I won't say that like confrontational truth telling is is
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maybe it's it's we're kind of maybe a low ebb for that at the moment but that's really only in in my maybe in my in my field in my same sort of song tradition you know I think I think in r b and in Hip Hop this is the show really
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but um I think also Ireland was Reckoning and I I this is me as an Irish citizen coming out of Ireland we were Reckoning with a great deal of our kind of our sort of Social and psychic and moral fabric where we were questioning and my
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generation was questioning the legacy of a huge amount of abuses uh with regards to the institutional Roman Catholic Church you know the last mother in baby homes if you're familiar with what they what they were they closed in the early
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90s these were these systems where unwed mothers were sort of essentially just uh we're trapped in institutions where they did free labor and their and their children were were taken from them and were you know put out for adoption for
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for wealthy Catholic American families in the 90s the last ones to close were were the 90s yeah the very last ones so it's it there's a huge there's a there's a lot that there felt like there was a great deal of sort of um
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work to be done a lot to be reckoned with you know that's a lot to take on as a songwriter I mean it's amazing that you were able to capture the spirit of that song and share it with the world because I got halfway through what I say before
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which is I never expected when artists for artists to do it but I respect it if and when they find the voice to do it I think it's a lot to expect artists through ART to continually speak as you say these hard truths yeah
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totally and we've we expect a lot of artists and I would have to say like for uh for a group of of like we don't really invest in artists before they're artists you know what I mean we don't we don't invest in in the in the creation
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of artists you know we don't we don't as a society say Hey you know art is worth investing into no it's the first thing it gets cut it's the first thing that gets cut you know and um and so we sort of we ask we ask of
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artists A Lot in fixing the world and healing the world and showing us uh where our pitfalls where our where our you know where our weaknesses are and where um first to get lifted up first to get knocked down and at the end of the day
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as well look I mean there's a purpose I think as to why the Arts get continually chipped away at is because it doesn't work in the favor of the system you know think about how the system ultimately works not to get too kind of like the
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system but this is how I see it having spoken to many people over many many years truth is ultimately very malleable um you know someone can say something and it can be twisted and turned and it can be used in order to serve a purpose
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it wasn't designed for very hard to do that through the voice of an artist therefore let's just keep them where we can manage that yeah do you know what I mean yeah it's a bit conspiratorial but I think there's some truth in it
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personally no no I think you know this is a devastating quote I think James Baldwin said once that love has never been a popular project you know uh and this guy's not a Bookworm are you kidding me this guy's coming in here
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he's like look the first time I've got to do is let everybody know that I don't read a lot come on no that's beautiful no but but it's no I I don't think I read that in a book to be fair but you retain the important things yeah yeah my
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mind like a trap sadly you know it's um mine look at like a I yeah I don't know but um why did you drop out I drop out I sensed that the skills I was learning in in college at the time were useful to a point but would not
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help me in doing what I actually wanted to do it was very history based very Theory based and that was interesting but I it wasn't aligned with what I wanted a great moment in your life to have self-awareness enough to know that by leaving something behind you create space to achieve something yeah I well thank thank you I also knew that we we had just there just been uh there's just been a crash massive financial crash so
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I figured I'd either be unemployable uh with a degree or I'll be unemployable with the ability to maybe write some songs 2008 GFC man I mean it we are living in that history still yeah still yeah though I mean talk about everything's fine nothing's been fine since it's crazy how yeah that experiences I mean affected the very fabric of families and the ability to be able to provide which ultimately affects the psychology of how children face the
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world which affects decision I mean the knock-on it is I mean we're still I don't think there was any sort of accountability for for a system that that that that falters like that you know we're still I think I think globally we're still finding reasons
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still finding the wrong people to blame for uh yeah for when very the most powerful and most wealthy institutions in the world yeah the bad you know what I mean yeah you know pardon the expression but no for sure I I think
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that to your point those answers haven't come and I think this this assumption that with no answers there's no responsibility or no accountability is false I just think it's taking a while for the answers to come people still want them people still want them yeah yeah but we're still obsessed with these with these things that kind of distract us these these wonderful distractions that have been created for us to forget about the reality of things
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you seem very good at being able to remove yourself from there you are someone who's comes back you take your time when you make your records I really respect that you never never felt to me like you were rushing into an
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opportunity off the back of one that you took it for what it was acknowledged and accepted it but you took time to process it does that ring true to you yeah I think I think that I still had I still have especially after the first record
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the the work to do in in knowing when to say no or knowing to not you know that I could could step away clearly if you're here talking to me I mean you should have said no to this no no I think I'm delighted to be here I'm thrilled
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um but I think there is is this funny thing that like when I step away I I get to I get to actually figure out okay well um where am I in all this or how do I process this how do all of these because we all share the same inputs we all
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share the same stimulus as you know a lot of us that's what there's a great deal of parallel thinking when art is made over across Societies or across the world but it's how how does this filter through me and and there is there is
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some Reckoning or there's some work to be done in sitting down and figuring out okay well where am I in this and there is something that happens I will say when you are are a musician or you have a moment or a buzzy moment you start
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seeing representations of yourself and social media you see representations of yourself of like Aussie headlines you know around the time of promoting an album I'll see um teen headlines it's great there's all this wonderful
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exposure and you get to speak about the work yeah but then you read you read this is what I am you know and you you have to remind yourself wait a second that's not me this is no it's so true I mean we're doing a very good job as a species of
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compartmentalizing our life into these really digestible elements but it's not healthy to the overall Journey totally or yeah 100 and and you kind of feel yourself fragmenting you feel you know and and I've never thought of it that that's where it's so true I must fragment myself half a dozen to a dozen times a day willingly and I don't really know what that's doing to my overall but sort of a sense of kind of self-awareness yeah yeah and I think
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that's only a question I've only really been able to ask myself in the last little while is is uh okay well well you know bring it back down to what what is the actual what is the now experience what is the experience of actually of me
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for me now in this moment and that's something that's I'm sitting in a chair I'm you know I'm being present and there's mindfulness in that and there's all sorts of stuff you know but um so there's it's I find that when I do
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step back and I have that time to stand away from representations of myself and that I can tune into to me again where do you tune up do you tune up in isolation do you talk to somebody what is the process that allows you to clear
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away some of that lichen and get to the real beauty of the you know bichon's actually super beautiful but you know what I mean get get to its original shape um I think it is I think it's something that uh like all for me it was always
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something I'd do in isolation I'd find great sense of Peace a great sense of solace in quiet and Solitude and um you know I'm blessed being where I'm from in Ireland is a place I feel very much in step with I feel very close yeah what's it like um it's kind of it's I mean when I moved out there as a kid it was it was it was less Urban sprawley but it's there's been some urban sprawl now from Dublin but around where I'm from when you get
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past greystones you could pass kind of like um Ashford and stuff Wicklow sort of opens up into the mountains and and in a way that's that's very very beautiful there is a spot called glendalock where uh I I swear to God there's a just
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there's some something homes in that in that Valley that's um very very I found Great Piece there like a Ley line almost like a sense of energy that occurs if for those who who who who believe in that I think Ireland is is very rich in
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Ley lines yeah it's as there's something there's something really deep there is a there's a throming there's a there's a something powerful in Glendalough I mean it's it's a monastery it's working um did his Hermitage but it's been a
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site of of burial and worship for how long thousands of years well there you go I mean thousands of years would suggest that yeah yeah this isn't you know this this is a thing and why would you not want to believe in something way
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bigger than ourselves that's why I never understand when people try to disprove this idea that energy exists in a tangible or an intangible realm yeah yeah that they're like no no I'm like why would you why would you want to think this is it why would you work hard against why would you work hard and yeah don't you want to believe in magic yeah yeah you know what and as I get older as well I cultivate you know you cultivate
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or you or you gain a new relationship with joy and wonder that that you never had as a child you know and it's not supposed to be the other way right I know I know isn't it supposed to be like the whole world is wonder when you were
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a kid and as you get older you become more but it's true I think it's true I think if you get around the right way it's true yeah yeah I I but I I resonate with what you're saying with regards um like I I have this you know for me
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connecting to what what I call for the sake of of of of of broad understanding uh of the source you know what I mean of connecting to a source or connecting to the infinite and there's there's places I I in in Ireland I feel very very close
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to and I love that you know you know I think that it helps artists to some degree whose job it is to deep search for the Deep on um again that intangible that thing that you're trying to strive to communicate through
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that isn't as obvious as what sits before you that can be a place of Madness and I think that I think what you're describing probably allows you to give it some purpose at times that that you're part of a long thousands of years
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of trying to tap into something that is that is beyond your comprehension right how else do these songs exist it blows my mind and it's what keeps drawing me back to music is it didn't exist before it was written and how do you know it
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needed to be written and what happened if you didn't write it that's not the definition of Madness I don't know what is you go crazy right yeah yeah I think for me that's that was the greatest the greatest risk of not making the work or
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not taking the risk or not dropping out of college let's say and saying I'm gonna try this I have to try this is yeah is is knowing that some part to look forward 20 years or 30 or 40 years and say that picture of a man who
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didn't do that who had all of this noise in his head and didn't find a way to exercise it um that's a very unhappy picture of a few deaths and that's and there's um yeah there's a I'm reminded of a of a poem and uh that we had to study in
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school another Parliament from the least well-read man I've ever spoken to please carry on I just have a photographic memory but the line he said was uh the only Madness is loneliness the voice that it goes unheard
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um breaks my heart man I think about I think about some of my favorite artists who died alone yeah yeah yeah I mean I feel like we've just lost somebody who went through a lot of pain yeah and a lot of Madness and um and I haven't
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spoken to anybody about this because music in her life was as much a part of my upbringing in childhood watching her find her voice and use it for what she believed in and like whoa what is going on like no one's ever done this in my
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lifetime yeah but I but I I feel compelled In This Moment given that we're having what I consider to be one of my favorite conversations to talk to you about your perspective from an artist's point of view knowing that that struggle that loneliness is always knocking at your door when you're writing songs I think when you're in the Arts yeah do you feel that I think there is a sensitivity yeah there is a nicely put yeah there is a
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sensitivity and I think I that's a sensitivity that I for the most part of my like young adult life I shut myself away from because it's too much you know and I think like any any person but certainly any any a lot of young men
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they learn not to feel that loneliness you know what I mean but it creeps up on them you know and and we sort of deny ourselves the the reality of oh no like of whatever it is a loneliness or a pain or a sorrow it's always there yeah yeah
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it's always there it's always there and to access to realize yeah there's there is when you're writing it and there's some part of yourself that is so open there is some you they're so open that that whatever is is coming forth whether it's whether it's something's and coming into you something is is coming out of you yeah your heart is very very open it's a very vulnerable state and you are at your lowest at times but just referring to Sinead um
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going back to Sinead when you hear she has one of those voices there's very she's one of those voices that she carries so much there's so much depth in her voice as an instrument there is a rawness there is a what I just think is
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the evidence of an enormous sensitivity an enormous sensitivity to to to to grief and to sorrow into suffering and to Joy and to love and I think that's that's how you get a person who has the courage to to risk so much to stand up
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um to be the first person uh on on such a huge platform and say guys we have to look at this you know we have to bear witness to something that is that is causing so much has caused and is causing and will cause so much
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suffering that does not need to be um and she had such searing sharp moral Clarity and um moral courage and she lived through that I think it's I think was only in the times that followed that we realized that she may well no one is really built
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to take that on actually built yeah to be able to take that on 100 and so it must be a calling yeah that is beyond your own sense of self-preservation given your sensitivity yeah that is what true courage is is it not yeah no 100
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and going back to spirituality and the source and energy I mean I know from what I understand about your name she was a very very deeply deeply spiritual person you know and and yeah but yeah I feel I mean I've I've said I've yeah
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I've I've said this before but I think in in the sensibilities that she rattled I don't think there would be an allowance or license for me to write and play with the ideas and take me to church had it not been for I was just gonna all right ask you you know was would there be a song like that or the ability to write songs like you've written on this album without without her I don't I just like her I don't I don't believe so I think I think I I
33:11
grew up swimming in waters that were made clearer by by the worker Sinead O'Connor you know man I mean it's it's sort of this subconscious thing I have kicking around me all the time in any conversation I have with an artist is to
33:25
try to better understand and help others who see the trade for what it is uh meet fan fan of Joy art artists get to make art fans to enjoy art seems so simple on the outset but we have to treasure our artists and protect them to some degree
33:38
because that sensitivity is right there just below the surface and it can go either way absolutely we've lost too many greats man over time and it's um and and people who just you thought had figured it out yeah that's like Chris Cornell really me up in a lot of ways um because I felt like he gotten to a point in his life where he sort of made it like you made it out yeah and it's like nah for whatever reason and we'll never know and should
34:04
never know that you know working so how that happened that's for family and and close friends only to truly be able to process that through the trauma of that but man like not now yeah yeah I know like okay when you're young and you're just
34:18
trying to distract yourself which it can go wrong real quick you talk about that a bit on this on this album this idea I mean on the song we were talking about before that damage gets done this idea of self-forgiven of forgiveness but also
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acknowledgment that you know youth is a is a is a dangerous place in a strange way yeah it certainly can be I mean um there's a there's a there's a song on the record called who we are and that that's um that's you know that that
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sense of arriving to a point and being unfulfilled I mean none of us that you're but you're right there is when when we're never going to tell that's how it's rough and yeah so I don't know this Phantom life is the lyric this
34:57
Phantom life sharpens like an image it sharpens Like a Knife um that's good you know it but it's all right hold up good one that one um but it we all chased the carrot you know what I mean and then you we all have our have this carrot that we're chasing we all have this idea of once I have this thing I'll be happy once I have this I've achieved this or once I can see other people tell me I'm great or they are they I experience other
35:25
people's adulation or or or did you get a kick out of that first time around did you get like just just for a minute you were like oh man this feels good I'm standing I'm sitting here in the seat and there's people shaking my head I
35:34
already know them but I liked what they do and yeah honestly I was at such I was so unaligned with it and I think some of it's cultural and some of it's Irish Cultural some of it is is personal like an inability to accept praise and
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inability to accept kind words new zealanders and Irish people have that in common as well yeah it's called tour puppy syndrome bro they'll find you and they'll knock you back down yeah exactly exactly the first one to get caught 100 yeah 100 um but yeah no and and but to arrive into a room strangers and everybody says hey you're amazing and your experience of yourself is very different from you just want to say why yeah you're only
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talking about yeah you help me understand yeah because last night I was like kicking myself for 10 reasons as to why I'm pretty far from amazing right now exactly um the music on this album is so beautiful and the people that you
36:25
worked with on this to help bring this to life it's just so tasteful and wonderful and like us like you said beautifully like the light in the shade so wonderfully covered the part I wanted part two that kick it all off is a
36:34
perfect example of that you're drawn into this very intimate almost vicarious experience in part one and then it just kicks off into this kind of almost 1972 1973 Timeless when everything was funky yeah that's true it's like everything
36:51
like it was debussy's funkiest period yeah yeah yeah no it is like everything sounds funky everything's rocking at about 100 to 110 beats per minute 100 yeah you're not wrong it's like whatever was in the electricity great grid that
37:04
powered the desk you know it's like that you know the all the gear was just everything sounds you know like I'm telling you go inside 1973 country and all you will hear is like Waylon Jennings rocking out to a funky beat yeah it's crazy delicious so I mean thank you delicious what a turn yeah so that was that was the that was what you're striving for because it sounds that way there was yeah and we definitely we were blessed when I mean
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La is such a fantastic place to get your hands on good old gear as well too so like these excellent preamps is excellent sort of but definitely I mean I wrote that I remember writing those riffs in in County Wicklow and trying to
37:40
capture that that's sort of that's this sort of like John Hammer group sort of feel of like well like get put put some sort of like analog sent to lay down the Rhythm and then just put you just got to be suspending imposter syndrome the
37:54
whole time doing that because you don't have to Preamble the band or anything exactly so you just make it like can I pull this off yeah yeah can I you know and how how will this make sense you know I was catching up on some of the
38:03
conversations you've been having a little bit around this album and I noticed there's a bit of a prick patient around some of the more personal songs about the love and and whatnot and I just wanted as a songwriter do you ever
38:13
sort of you can't question the process of what it is you're about to write about or how you want to write about it what's going to serve the purpose of helping you get through things but do you ever get anxious or nervous that
38:26
it's going to open the door to that kind of stuff especially for someone who's very private we don't live in a private time most people are talking about the relationships before they even write about them yeah this is the opposite yeah
38:37
um I try to be led by I just try to be led by the song and I think sometimes if something comes out in the song that is that is that is explicitly reflective of of something I try not to where I where I can avoid it let the songs be some diary entry or something that's some some specific reference to to my life all too closely um I think isn't that getting in the process though isn't that in a way kind of controlling a process that is by its
39:06
nature searching for lack of control yeah for I mean I can't prevent it all the time you know this and there's there's specific references on this album for sure and and in some of these songs I will say I wrote I mean there is
39:18
what what comes and What needs to come in the process um but some of these songs started out as songs that I that I wrote to to to someone dear to me you know and and in that way and and I think in the case of like icarian you know was like an idea
39:35
it was a I had as a gift for somebody and gender Sylvia the producer of that song it's like that's amazing you should finish that and put it on the album and I had some resistance to it but I mean it's it's uh but you know um so yeah there is I think I think I give a lot like like anything like that the the there's a there's a great deal of myself in these songs but I think maybe that's where I I balance it out by you know I
40:00
don't necessarily want to be in in the public eye for the sake of it you know what I mean like I think people there's enough of me to be known in loads of interviews that I do and here's my thinking on that I think um yeah there's
40:13
a certain type of Personality trait that requires a level of adoration or attention it it fills a whole to some degree hopefully that whole gets filled up and something greater comes along but no shade on that yeah we've all searched
40:24
for you know some vacuous attention or something that just it's a nice hit right but my thing is if you're an artist and you can survive and you can play great shows in front of a lot of people who love you and you don't need to play the game do it Justin Vernon's way man oh my God you know what I mean like show up when you need it yeah show up when you want to yeah go away and recharge and figure it out totally totally huge a huge
40:49
admiration for that for that man for that artist but for that method yeah you know PJ Harvey yeah yeah totally touched it for a second didn't like the way it felt too hot disappeared back in yeah you know and it ironically the one
41:02
that everyone talks about is a big sort of like the most kind of apart from like you know some of the more kind of MTV related videos of the early days people talk about stories from the city as being this album which was like the big
41:13
kind of coming out PJ Harvey pop star moment that album is Is All About Retreat right it's all about getting lost in New York it's all about horses in my dreams it is not about attention it is about falling in love again the F
41:28
out of being PJ Harvey yeah that's such a good that's such a good Insight yeah you know this is funny to me that you know we make these assumptions ourselves um yeah well you're not famous yeah thank God for that that's the good
41:40
news right not in the conventional sense but but you're known and respected for what you do yeah I think I'm at peace I mean I'm at peace with that if people know me based on the work I'm delighted you know you know like based on you know
41:54
based on the music and they're like hey you know what I like what you did there I like I like your music is you know it resonates with me I like it I enjoy it it I've good memories with it wonderful that's great that what else do I I don't
42:07
you know what about in County Wicklow that's probably where they look they just leave it alone the most yeah I they they do in some of my in my local spots yeah there's places when I have been gone for a while like places in Ireland
42:18
I'm so recognizable I'm also yeah I kind of stick out like a little like a bit of a sore thumb oh you're seven foot six you know you refuse to cut your hair and everything exactly yeah yeah it's gonna be hard for you to change it up exactly
42:31
exactly but no there is um there's a returning to to come home to Ireland you know it's it's such a small population it's kind of uh you feel there's a familiarity which which can feel very close at times but there's um there is a
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there's such warmth and there's such support that I've experienced and there's a great deal of it don't you want to travel though don't you want to live somewhere else one day I always think it's in the artist's Spirit to
42:54
want to travel and experience other things and I respect the need for nature and and what comfort and home brings you but isn't there a future where you can see yourself traveling yeah I suppose six of my last 10 years if not more was
43:07
traveling you know so and there is so there is there's always a suitcase pack so um but I'm part of that decision was was um to to to to move home was was kind of I got a sense of like I got a sense of wanting to be to have a close
43:26
relationship with my family and with my parents in particular while while I still while I still can't oh I know that um is that that's the sacrifice yeah that is when all is said and done yeah you can justify all your decisions and all the all the people quote selfish self-absorb whatever narcissism but this idea of following a thread into the unknown yeah when you get somewhere and you finally stop the only thing that hurts is the
43:52
time it's a sacrifice exactly I I I I it's you're so right I've said this I keep saying this to friends the hard work is nothing you know people talk about hard work oh it's hard work it's hard work you love what you do it's fine
44:03
you just do it exactly and there's always going to be a voice in you that it feels unnatural to do anything else yeah you know what I mean like when it comes go time and somebody's like jump you know here's the ring of fire jump
44:13
through it yeah you nothing in your body says I can't I won't do it you know you might be like Oh I'm tired right now but like you you the work is done you've no choice but to do it it's the sacrifice it's the it's the relationship yeah it's that's the one I mean that's the one that I'll never get back that time and I regret nothing because my parents are very proud of everything that me and my brother do and they always encouraged us
44:34
but um man like that is the one you and again talk about going through the door you got to walk in that room yeah you have have to acknowledge it you do you do um otherwise it's kind of worthless the work and everything you did doesn't mean
44:49
as much if you don't acknowledge what it costs you yeah a 100 100 and I think there's some I'm just I just recognize that there will be a time that that is time I'll never get back and um so in the moments in The Quiet
45:03
Moments between touring and The Quiet Moments between promotion or creating I created most of this album a great deal at the time making it was here in La um that I have these moments that I have with my with my family with my parents
45:16
with my you know I've friends at home now I've watched them have kids their first children I mean our Godfather and and there is again you get older and you realize okay it's not the hit it's not the it's not that the head of people
45:29
saying oh you're great or standing in a room and people applauding you or whatever that's good that's cool that's ground okay that's fine it is like to to be in step with yourself and be fulfilled what is it to feel fulfilled
45:42
and feel whole and feel connected and feel in place and a huge about part of that is is the Communist Community yeah yeah I just think all those yeses you have to say uh just eventually if you smart just give you all the no's you
45:55
need yeah yeah yeah totally totally you know what I mean a couple of years to take me to church bro and you can't have a good 10 years out of there you know space to make decisions that you wanted to make and you know you can you said No
46:10
at the right time I mean I know you want to keep saying more but you know yeah I think I think three albums and 10 years is a good that's the right amount to some degree it's it's been right for me I you know I think there's part of me
46:22
that might I'd love to I'd love to I'd love to do more now I think you know and and it's about getting a balance I think I think there's a um of a better ability to again it's energy right it's of like just recharging filling my own cup as I
46:37
go so that by the end of a tour I'm not completely I'm not completely burned out you know and so you would say that you're about to start at it exactly come see me in a year will be over here like an Apex Twin videos
46:57
very good point very good point um what's your relationship like with um with the craft when it doesn't when it's not leading to something like how do you approach music or live with music when it's not part of your life's process yeah [Music] um it's just funny I felt great you know if the work isn't coming you know I feel at peace and stepping away from from it and waiting until something comes I think if I push too hard I find it hard to make
47:23
work if I'm not inspired I find it very hard to finish finish a song make a song for the sake of it if there's not a spark of inspiration or something that that's that's lighting me alright so check this out can I ask you this
47:35
because I'm I'm still searching for you know an answer that I can kind of relate to dip what is it can you are you any can you describe to some degree or with any sense of detail how you know that that it needs to happen now hmm
47:54
that the song needs to be or that or something yeah that you can be out walking in the middle of Nature and what is that spark that feeling what does it feel like is it is it is it a subconscious does your skin change does
48:08
your stomach turn do the words come out like what is it yeah I think I think I think there is sensory parts of it yeah your body lights up you know your your um there's some sense of and again there's a there's a description of of
48:21
what this is in it what what this kind of is in portrait of the artist is a young man Joyce man has a library second largest library of books same books should be fair I've read two books right you know bro it's incredible it's like running because I only know one album right really inside out I mean people think I like music I'm way more of a movie person yes yeah I was gonna say when you were saying about music or like oh how
48:51
does it work in your life or outside your life I find great Freedom this is red carpet question that David Bowie has given and what are you listening to now and he's like I'm nothing really it's like and he says music isn't a big part
49:01
of my life yeah you know yeah thank God yeah the expectation suddenly evaporates and you can just be David Bowie or even just Davy Jones totally yeah totally or just you take your you take your nourishment of inspiration whatever it
49:13
is from all over the place that it's not it's not you know you're not listening to music all the time it's not it's not this opposite it's because we can't do it the way that he or you can do it and so when we come face to face with the
49:25
people who make it and I've spent my whole life dancing about architecture so I'm the person who knows more and I do make music and I've made albums so I do understand the process and inside the studio certainly helped me but
49:36
um you know it's we're fascinated by something that again is Magic it all comes down to the same thing yeah that question I asked you about the feeling is the same reason why he's dismantling that whole sort of idea of of him being
49:48
this music living and breathing through him as it's like that may not be my magic yeah yeah I think you know he's and he's an instrument and there's that thing people describe where you feel like you're a channeling thing
50:01
you feel like you're uh you're uh you're you're an instrument of something else coming through you yeah I think Joyce describes this there's this sense a feeling of Enchantment of the heart and he's describing to a a friend Stephen
50:12
deadless is describing how do you know let's he takes an object like a basket yeah and he says how do we know a basket is a basket and not anything else and he describes its form it describes you know it's that it's this kind of
50:23
philosophical question and um and he says now if once we have conceived of this object that is purely itself there is this thing that happens in this Enchantment of the heart um something that is not only itself in
50:36
like a material sense but itself in a in a psychic yeah you know uh conceptual sense this Collective idea it's almost Beyond conceptual isn't it exactly because we sure do a good job of creating barriers between the Enchantment of the heart and what it is
50:53
that we actually experience yeah yeah no totally there's all of these processes by which it gets abstracted and separated from Etc but I think there's something that happens when a song comes into you or an idea comes into you and
51:06
this disc for me it could be a couplet it could be two lines it could be a series of lines it could be the experience of could be the tiniest little minute element of a memory and there's something I would describe it as
51:22
embryonic it feels like something is is so its potential is enormous you don't know what the limitations of this song is is yet but you know that here is a seed that is starting to germinate and its limbs haven't grown yet it hasn't it
51:38
hasn't quite figured out what its final form is going to be but the kernel the core of it is so absolute and it's so undeniable that here some something some element of experience has manifested into an idea that can be captured into
51:54
something new and when I say it's embryonic it hasn't finalized its form yet in fact it hasn't even begun but it's looking for a stewardess it's looking for looking for for Pathways things to to find its way and there is a mourning process there's nearly as and this is what I think in the past has taken me so long to write songs because I'm I'm sorrowful when it can't be everything so in that moment you're like oh but it could have
52:19
it could also this it could resonate with this idea or it could it could it could also bring bring into it this and how that resonates with this there's a sadness that comes in a little bit as he watches the song also has to be a four
52:33
minute piece you know or a three and a half minute piece or something like that and you were and you were realizing it can't be all things it has to I have to put this feeling into language powerful powerful observation there I mean if
52:45
anyone's at the people who are listening to this are watching this right now step with that for a second because um that that is that isn't itself like the to your point that is the that is the sadness of creativity is realizing that it's it's reached its limitations at that point I think that's what drives people like Daemon Damon Orban to just operas yeah you know Africa yeah where else yes do I not have to be hemmed in by song two yes yeah
53:14
totally and ultimately the tools that we use to try and communicate this feeling this enchantment are so poultry and limited like we're talking about like mouth sounds words things that are solid can limit as well too that are not
53:31
Limitless and so your this feeling is Lim feeling is is is not worse so there it is it's it's the realization that we as as a species through process have limit have have been forced to limit the feeling I guess I guess so and you've only
53:45
really experience it at the very embryonic stage when you realize it's like what's possible and you're so in love with it and I suppose as you say as you mentioned Damon Albarn if if you're trying to get well there's how do I what
53:56
are the elements of the feeling that I can how what are the different ways I can communicate that that capture its different textures it's singular elements but because words don't often do it see I think we're in a golden era
54:08
for the Arts and I'll tell you why because I'm having conversations all the time with the with the best of the best yourself included who people who are writing and communicating and expressing themselves at a high level this this
54:19
idea keeps coming back over and over again which is we're searching for feeling yeah and I've never had that recurring statement come up so often as it has lately and I think once again the Arts is speaking for all of us by saying
54:34
because it's unfiltered and it speaks it's true human truth it's truth that right now what we want is we want to capture something deeper than we allowed ourselves to experience before yeah I well I I think there's I think there's a lot of Truth in that and I think um something that I try because I know we're talking about a lot of the heady sort of conceptual stuff about art and and it's making and what we feel Etc but something I try to
55:00
especially when I kind of get a little bit ungrounded in that is trying to bring myself back to the Bare Bones of and especially it's easy to run away with expectations what that a song must have certain that's what they're for you know
55:13
by their very nature they had to be run away they are they are and there's and I find that you know expectations on you know you you project a lot onto a song or you want it's like a kid that you want like you know it needs to be this
55:27
sort of certain sort of way it needs to be received this way but what I try to approach is in the work does it feel like it's worth making In This Moment does it feel like it needs to be made yes and do I find it and this is Broad
55:40
and it's for for everyone to interpret but do I find it beautiful and if the answer is yes then it's like it needs to be made and that that is like it what what is the element of that beauty you can you can look into and and expand and
55:53
try to pick apart and and but those two those two questions are just kind of the two the absolute North for me is just you know in in the in the bear making of something you know 60 of the finest minutes of spending anyone's company in a long time I can blinking it flew by right I don't even know what we've been covered there's a lot of I'm just waking up now that is even that's a good one that's a good one thank you foreign [Music]