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Do you worry about getting sherlocked by OpenAI or >> 100% and I think it is the best hygiene for an application layer company to have.
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[music] Just assume that they're just going to directly go into your vertical just no matter what.
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Just assume that they're going to How would you defend against that and on what time scale?
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[music] >> Welcome to Access the Tech Industries inside conversation.
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I'm Ellis Hamburger here with my co-host Alex Heath.
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What's going on my friend? Just hanging in there.
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We are fighting sickness in the Heath household, uh, as are many people I know right now.
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But, uh, I'm hanging in there.
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The throat's doing okay today.
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>> We taking, uh, wellness formula. We taking vitamin C.
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You on some of that arrowan [ __ ] What do we got? >> I'm a juice guy. I'm a juice guy.
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I do a lot of uh, clean, simple juices, smoothies. >> Well, but what juice? The juice matters. What do we got? Ginger. >> Ginger. Tumeric.
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This this time of year is orange, ginger, turmeric, apple, pineapple, a little cayenne. I like a spice.
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I like where you just shiver, you know, when you take the shot.
1:04
That's my favorite kind of a juice shot.
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>> Shock those cells into action. >> Yeah. So, >> good. >> Yeah. What about you?
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>> I am also dealing with sickness, as I am in every episode. [laughter] >> Yeah.
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with a 2-year-old and a four-year-old that that put everything in their mouth.
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Uh there's only so much one can do.
1:23
You could argue that tech should be doing more to solve the real problems.
1:32
>> You could >> parents be suffering, right?
1:32
And uh I'm actually pretty happy I did find a technological cure for one of my ailments.
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I get especially bad hangovers and this new Ziotics stuff I've been taking does appear to work or it's a particularly strong placebo. >> Chill, chill, chill.
1:49
They're not a sponsor yet. Chill.
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>> Okay, well, we'll get them on.
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I even have like a hand symbol. I do.
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You won't see this on the audio, but I go Z biotics. >> God damn it, Ellis.
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You can't you can't be giving away this kind of quality brand affinity.
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>> Or we can send them the clip and say, "Look, we have an authentic user here." That's true.
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I'm also the audience consideration will be higher for the prize.
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>> I've used it as well and it it does work. I will attest to that. >> Yeah.
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>> And you do go out a lot.
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>> Uh I do I'm trying to less and less um with the new media company stuff.
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Just don't have the energy anymore.
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>> But I am going out tonight co-hosting a fun tech and media dinner at Anjak Thai in LA which I consider to be one of the best restaurants in Los Angeles.
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And you are not coming >> uh because you declined.
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So, uh, that's that's lame of you. >> Yeah.
2:40
I mean, I'm not as much of like a hustler networker as you.
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I keep my dates with old friends.
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I don't just, you know, say yes to whoever has the most Twitter followers, you know. >> That's fair. That's fair.
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[laughter] >> There are some hot guests on the way.
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There are some hot guests on the guest list, though. I'll give you that.
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>> Did you see this Apple CEO thing?
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Cook Tim Apple is stepping down or is going to step down? >> Oh, yeah. I saw it.
3:04
I don't know if this is real, but I I don't know.
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I kind of feel like it it probably is.
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Says like maybe next year.
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>> I mean, it's just a matter of time, right?
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I feel like in [snorts] all the keynotes he says his good morning and has been handing the reigns, I feel like kind of more and more over the years. Or is that just me? >> I think that's right.
3:28
>> Can somebody crunch the numbers on that?
3:30
Well, the last time he addressed this, I found out was with uh in a very hard-hitting interview with Duual Lia in 2023, um where he said he couldn't envision his life not being at Apple, but that was two years ago. A lot has changed. He's getting up there.
3:46
I mean, he still looks swaggy.
3:48
There was a photo of him recently with some pretty rare Nikes.
3:49
I He's on the board of Nike, so I assume he's got the connects, but looking pretty fresh.
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um definitely definitely is working out, definitely is on juice cleansing, all that. So, who knows?
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But, um you know, he's still getting up there in age and Apple uh Apple's chairman of the board just turned 75, I read.
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So, uh I guess it's time to kind of change out the guard.
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I would be more skeptical in these reports if he was the usual CEO megalomaniac, but he has always seemed despite his 4 a. m.
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wakeups and intensity, he's always seemed like a normal person, I guess, to some extent.
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>> I've heard he likes to party.
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>> You'll see him at Coachella.
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He goes to the afterp parties.
4:40
He's uh he's definitely got a crowd, you know, but uh yeah, I think he's more low-key than some of the other exacts.
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He's not in the octagon like Zach. >> Yeah.
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Long story short, I don't think he I don't read him as the type of person who is like at this stage of life primarily fueled by like babes and legacy.
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You know what I'm saying?
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Like some of the other CEOs that we deal with.
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>> Dudes, dudes and leg legacy. >> Dudes and legacy. Yes. >> Yeah.
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Um >> I mean I think he's obsessed with shareholder value.
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uh clearly uh considering he's added like four trillion in market cap to Apple since he took over.
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Uh but when I was reading this, I was thinking about man, do you remember at the time when he was named CEO how there were so many articles saying Apple is doomed?
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Apple will never recover from Steve Jobs sudden death.
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Um and Cook really didn't have many believers.
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And this was before a lot of products that you know are very successful for Apple now.
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But man, it's just wild to uh see how much he proved everyone wrong over the last, you know, decade plus.
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I mean, with a culture as strong as theirs and the pressure, the incredibly high bar for talent working inside of a spaceship, I think it makes a lot of sense that the power diminished far more slowly than it might at any other company that replaced their founder, ex-founder, CEO, uh, who's one of the most famous, you know, people ever in this industry.
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With that said, I mean, I do believe that there was a market shift toward a growth and extraction period.
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I mean, the number of iPhone models, the number of MacBook models, people in our industry love to talk about Steve turning in his grave, but I mean, >> well, he used to say you could he would famously say you could fit all of Apple's products on a table, right?
6:30
And now you go into the Apple store and it's rows and rows of different products, >> right?
6:36
And so I think while they were successful in terms of influence and financially before, I think you could argue things have shifted a bit more toward the financial side.
6:45
But then again, it also coincides with a period in which even if Steve were here, I mean, the number of things added to phones each year has just gone down and down and that's just a natural thing, right? >> Yeah.
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>> Um I think one thing we could have said for Steve though is that I'm not sure he would have been in a rush to get the Vision Pro out the door.
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like he had such good taste and knowledge of the industry and what was going on that he was going to launch something as soon as he was ready to do it as soon as he could be confident that it was good.
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And so I think you know some decisions like that do at the end of the day come back to Tim or even the Apple intelligence botched launch.
7:22
Obviously Steve had his fair share of drama but I think you could argue that Apple has kind of not been quite as good at navigating uh culture since then. >> I don't know man. the the pouch. The pouch they just did. >> Yeah. Yeah, the isake pouches. It was pretty sick.
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>> You thought that was sick.
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I was going to say that's something that seems right up your alley.
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I could see you rocking that at Maru.
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>> I mean, I can't decide on what color.
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So >> Oh, you haven't decided on the color, but you're going to get one.
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Is that a Christmas gift I should get you?
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>> Do Do co-host get each other Christmas gifts? >> I don't know.
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We can we can we can do that.
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>> I'll get you a new fuzzy thing for the end of your mic.
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[laughter] >> It's very pointy. Um, yeah.
8:04
I mean, I I think it'd be fun to think about who could be the CEO of Apple, but it sounds like they've already decided it's going to be John Turnis, who's the head of hardware.
8:12
I think he's like 55, around the same age that Cook was when he took the job.
8:17
And you know, would it be cool for them to have kind of a wildcard younger CEO that hearkens back to the more designforward sensibility of jobs and I've Yeah, that's not the direction they're going to go as one of the most important companies in the world.
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Uh, too many shareholders to take care of.
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>> That's the thing, right?
8:41
It's like how much can actually change.
8:42
This is one of the superpowers of being a founder and why I love working with them is that they do have this crazy power to think bet long term.
8:53
A lot of times they very literally have the power with their super voting shares uh in order to make sure that no one else even has control or can boot them out of the CEO seat.
9:05
But that is one of those cool things and once the founder leaves you can kind of get never get that power back again.
9:10
Um, I think if you look at, you know, a public company CEO like Brian Chesky that's been able to help them navigate some market downturns, things probably would have gone differently if that wasn't the founder CEO.
9:23
>> Man, I bet that founder speech works so well for you when you're having an initial client review, right?
9:26
You just get them to reup major with that.
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>> You have all the power. >> Yeah.
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[laughter] Um, >> he's like, "Yeah, he does.
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I'm booked through March >> pretty much."
9:39
meaning that company, ladies and gentlemen. >> Yeah, exactly.
9:42
Um, also just wanted to let everyone know that we are off next week for Thanksgiving.
9:47
Uh, Ellis, do you have plans to gorge yourself or fly to Middle America?
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>> As long as we don't call it housekeeping, >> I'm fine with whatever.
9:58
That's like my pet peeve with newsletters and podcast. So, we can ban that. We need a ban word list.
10:05
>> Yeah, a scheduling note. How about that?
10:07
Um, yeah, I'm not doing anything.
10:07
I'm uh not going to do much.
10:11
I'm going to eat Chinese food.
10:12
Uh, and we're hunkering down here in LA. What about you?
10:16
>> We've got a McCall's order queued up, a local wonderful butcher.
10:19
And, uh, yeah, some some football. >> Okay.
10:26
Well, it sounds like I'm coming over there. That's settled.
10:27
Um, this other big thing that kind of came in under the radar, I was actually surprised.
10:33
There was no poin pump and circumstance about it.
10:37
They didn't do a big press conference. They just let it out.
10:40
Was chat GBT added group chats as a beta thing.
10:44
And I think a few countries, if you're in New Zealand, a couple other places, it's always New Zealand where they where they test the stuff first.
10:52
Um, and basically you can add someone that you connect with on chat GBT into a group chat and add your all's chat GBTs and the examples are, you know, planning a trip, stuff like that.
11:03
Uh, but I'm super fascinated by this.
11:06
Uh, mainly because I'm actually pretty familiar with the people they hired to build this and they're all ex Meta Instagram people.
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Uh and my understanding this was a relatively fast project and uh more to come on this front in terms of Chad GBT becoming a social network which feels pretty big. >> Yeah.
11:25
Uh I think there are a few angles here.
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One of them that I continue to appreciate about OpenAI is just the pace.
11:33
They have a lot of great talent, a lot of great designers and they just ship.
11:37
And it like reminds me of the old Facebook days where like I would be at their office in Aster Place in New York and I would be in a room talking to some product manager and then I would get an email from another person at Facebook about how I should come to the office to talk about the other new product and I'm like I'm already here. >> Yeah.
11:54
>> I mean I feel like Open AI OpenAI has something every week or two. >> Yeah.
11:58
What I like about this though is that on the one hand I think I mean we've talked about this like interesting comparison before between meta and openai especially with Sora and the Vibes app but I think this is another example where like a lot of times meta appears to be a bit more driven by trends and just trying to make sure that they have a bet on every number but I do see this as an example where OpenAI is being driven by the behavior.
12:22
I'm not sure if they talked about this in the blog post, but I do think people are sharing J chat GPT links a lot.
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And if this is just a way for someone else who's already an existing user to jump in, you can call it whatever you want.
12:36
And we're taking on social networks.
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we're taking on group chat or messaging or whatever.
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But I think we all know that in consumer technology, making an existing behavior, whether it's a hashtag or uh the other features that users have invented over the years, making that stuff frictionless is is a surefire way to uh succeed.
12:55
>> Yeah, Chloe and I share chat threads all the time, and it's it's not a great experience right now.
12:59
I would actually love for it to be integrated in the product. Not in it.
13:02
The thing is, I don't want group chats.
13:04
I don't want like my old college buddies necessarily in my chat JBT, but like your partner or good friend or someone you're planning a trip with.
13:13
Like, sure, that makes a lot of sense.
13:15
Uh, a a tricky balance I think they probably are having to walk though with this is they also expand to direct DMs, one-on-one, all that stuff.
13:22
I think this is just the beginning of where this is going for them.
13:26
Is there's this um intimacy to what is in your chat GPT?
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And um there's been a couple times, you know, where you you know I look at like someone's chubby bout and they kind of like like what are you doing?
13:39
like like Chloe's even like that like don't look at my chute.
13:43
I just think there's this uh intimacy that people feel about it because you're using it for so many deeply personal things and trying to separate that from a social experience when JGBT has been such a you know singleplayer mode product for you know since the beginning.
14:01
That seems like it could be tricky.
14:04
>> I mean we need to make this a meme format.
14:06
I look at my chat GPT sidebar all the time and I'm just like who the [ __ ] am I?
14:11
>> I have is there a way to cross post to blue sky and threads now.
14:14
I don't know what sweet or whatever still exists.
14:18
Then after that I have a question about if I should proceed after battle 30 and Final Fantasy Tactics because I'm I don't know getting getting bored or whatever and ChatG is just so good at answering questions like that and it's like the game is about to get epic. You should stay.
14:32
Then I have the meaning of fighting windmills, which a client said to me in a meeting the other day.
14:37
I'm like, what does that mean?
14:38
Then I have uh what team in the NFL has missed the most fourth downs in a game because the Lions, my Lions missed like five the other day.
14:47
Then right below it, I have what is the origin of the term having a crush.
14:52
>> Um and then last but not least, I was looking for a quote from Palmer Lucky.
14:55
So yeah, that's my uh life in a nutshell [laughter] right there.
14:59
>> Mine is just like random home stuff.
14:59
car buying stuff, work stuff. It's just Yeah.
15:06
I mean, there's just so much >> be more specific than that, Alex.
15:10
>> Workout class tax deduction.
15:10
That was one I tried the other day.
15:12
[laughter] >> I'm I'm doing try to do everything I can, man.
15:17
As a solo, >> now that you're uh now that you're at the outside soloreneur, >> it said no.
15:22
It said uh consult your CPA, but probably not a good idea.
15:24
So, I'm not going to do that.
15:26
We need we need tax AI, but we have legal AI on the show today.
15:32
Was that a Was that a good transition?
15:34
>> That's the transition I was going to make.
15:36
You complete my sentences, Alex.
15:39
>> Oh man, >> we're not even at episode 20 yet.
15:40
And already [laughter] >> uh Yeah.
15:44
So, we have Winston Weinberg, the CEO of Harvey, who graciously stepped in.
15:49
We teased this last week, but stepped in for GMO, the CEO of Verscell, who was going to do a live taping with us at Google Ventures the other week and couldn't.
15:58
And so Winston was game and we literally met him 5 minutes before we got on stage and it was actually a great conversation.
16:05
I was um impressed by him.
16:08
Uh he said things that AICOS don't normally just directly answer which was like there was one thing where I was I said you know do you think you're going to take away legal jobs?
16:19
and he's like, "Uh, probably."
16:19
And also, there's going to be hiring freezes and there already are starting to be hiring freezes in law firms because of Harvey and because of other, you know, legal AI stuff.
16:30
So, uh, props to him for being, uh, honest and direct and, uh, yeah, what did you make of the conversation?
16:37
>> Yeah, I liked him, too.
16:37
Um, I wasn't super aware of what was going on, but now it's one of those recency biased things where I'm seeing Harvey everywhere now. >> Yeah.
16:46
Uh but uh yeah, I like that he he played ball with my trolling.
16:48
Um I was like, I saw on your LinkedIn that you were a lawyer for one year.
16:52
Do you actually know what you're talking about?
16:57
>> And uh he's just an honest guy.
16:57
And uh he's got a sense of humor.
17:00
Uh >> I like how he talked about interviewing candidates inside of Google Docs using actual tests as opposed to just >> letting people chitchat about whatever they they say they do.
17:11
And so yeah, definitely one of those founders who's kind of innovating on a lot of fronts.
17:17
And I also I also want to give props to you and me for uh for ordering a bunch of uh being bold enough to order a bunch of oysters before we we ho we hosted this podcast event which was probably ill advised. Uh but I loved it.
17:30
It was our first trip together and we had to celebrate somehow, right? >> Yeah.
17:35
And I love living on the edge with you and you know I'm an oyster guy. I love oysters.
17:40
And I so far, knock on would have not gotten sick from them.
17:44
And uh that would have really sucked if it would have happened that day. But yeah, we were good.
17:48
>> I mean, had that happened, they would have been like, "What the [ __ ] were you guys thinking?"
17:50
And we're like, "Well, we're we're at Shack 15.
17:53
We're at the ferry building.
17:55
We had to go to the Hog Island, get some oysters." And uh what can one do?
17:58
You know, >> we're new at that.
18:02
>> Fortunately fortunately uh we were fine.
18:05
So, uh, >> and I made my flight back, uh, to LA with a government shutdown and got home at a reasonable hour.
18:09
It was a, it was a good day. >> True travel pro.
18:11
Well, shall we kick it to Winston? >> Let's kick it.
18:15
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Good ideas can come from anywhere, but making them real can feel out of reach.
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19:31
[music] >> So, without further ado, we're going to put you on the hot seat with the first question.
19:40
Big thanks to Google Ventures for having us here.
19:42
What's the worst advice Google Ventures has ever given you?
19:45
>> Oh, that's a really good question. >> Or the best.
19:48
It's up to you, Wednesday.
19:50
>> No, I think it could be both, you know. Um, let's see. Uh, worst advice.
19:52
Um I I'd say that there was definitely >> he's actually he's actually answered [laughter] the question.
20:02
>> I'm actually going to answer the question. I'm serious.
20:03
So I think that God bless but I think this is like a common VC worst advice problem.
20:09
Um I think that there is a combination and I I don't think anyone's actually figured it out, ourselves included, of how much do you hire folks that have done the job before versus folks that have really high slope.
20:24
And I don't I actually don't think the startup community right now like the application layer company this is probably what I talk to most application layer company uh founders about is it's very difficult to come up with which role is better for I've done this before and I've done this at scale versus ah we need to completely rethink this role.
20:43
Um, and so I'd say the the worst and the best advice that I've gotten from all VCs is when to hire the person for scale, which a lot of the time I've got wrong and I should have hired someone that's really good at scaling.
20:55
And sometimes I've been right when I think you should bet on a junior person. So, it just it depends.
20:58
But, uh, I think that's been the both the best advice and stuff I've gotten wrong and the worst advice, too.
21:05
>> That was a much better answer than I expected on my question. >> Thank you, Winston.
21:08
[laughter] >> We're going to like and subscribe to your channel, too. >> All right. Great.
21:14
Um, so tell us about Harvey for those who aren't familiar, the listeners out there around the world. What is it?
21:21
>> Yeah, so we're a legal AI platform.
21:21
Um, and we started basically building a productivity suite for lawyers at law firms.
21:28
And what we've started now doing is selling that same productivity suite and tweaking it for large enterprises too.
21:35
So for like global 2000 and now we're making everything multiplayer.
21:37
So what we're trying to do long term is basically transform the way that legal services and probably professional services as in like adjacencies to legal like uh tax compliance etc are actually delivered right and we think that that's a combination of a platform that is in between how the professional services providers are using the platform and the global 2000 or large enterprises or startups as well.
22:02
>> So how do the lawyer clients feel when you tell them that they're about to go multiplayer?
22:08
They're really >> I know that's a term we use in tech, but uh you have a different clientele, right?
22:12
>> And are you wearing a suit when you're doing this? >> Yeah. Yeah.
22:13
So So I definitely say collaboration.
22:14
Um they're more excited about it than I think like anyone else.
22:19
I mean the the law firms are incredibly excited about this because >> I think that this is another opportunity to for them to basically show the their differentiation, right?
22:28
Like there is a massive difference between how some law firms are adopting AI and others.
22:32
And so when you say, hey, this platform is going to be collaborative, it really allows law firms to think about how are we going to change how we practice law and how are we going to use that to get more business, right?
22:45
Get more business a or b like strengthen the relationships between them and their current uh clients.
22:52
One way to actually think about this is really what law firms have been doing for a long time is just doing RL on client relationships.
23:00
So in other words, teaching junior associates how do you actually do fund formation for a certain type of private equity fund, right?
23:09
And then you have that junior associate grow up to be a partner, right?
23:13
And now they know how to do it, right?
23:15
And so if there are ways to do that tech enabled faster, you're going to get clients that want to work with you more and for longer.
23:21
It becomes pretty sticky.
23:23
>> Also, those jobs go away.
23:26
>> So yeah, this is where I think those tasks go away.
23:29
I don't think the job goes away.
23:31
So, so one way I think about this is we are now actually a pretty large consumer of legal services, right, ourselves.
23:37
Like we use try to use Harvey for everything.
23:40
>> Is it because you're getting sued or what? >> No, not yet at least. Um, knock on wood.
23:45
Um, >> you could be the first to sue yourself if you want. >> Oh, yeah.
23:47
That might be kind of hard.
23:48
There's there's some problems with that.
23:50
But um as a user or a consumer of legal services, one thing that I struggle with is the delta between how much it costs for a junior associate to do a task that you could have done when you were in college versus the best M&A partner in a certain in the pharmaceutical industry or whatever industry on earth, right?
24:08
And usually that junior associate bills like a,000 an hour and that partner who is the best in the world at what they do is 2500 an hour or 3,000 an hour. >> We need a new job. >> We need a new job.
24:18
But but that doesn't actually make sense to me, right?
24:20
And so my gut in what ends up happening is the work that AI can't do, which there is a lot of work in legal that I don't think AI is going to be able to do or at least anytime soon, access the data and a bunch of other things.
24:32
Client relationships, that work is going to be more valuable and you could charge more for that.
24:37
And then all of this other stuff is going to get automated and put into basically like fixed fee pricing. >> Yes.
24:43
You wrote something interesting in your series D raise.
24:45
uh just a quaint little 300 million.
24:47
Uh you wrote that centuries old firms are experimenting with new business models.
24:52
That is like ancient history in tech terms.
24:54
Like this is a little different than bringing Slack to the CTO of your company or something like that.
25:01
>> What is it like working with those types of customers and and reaching them? >> Yeah.
25:05
I mean, >> you told us behind the scenes they're not exactly on Twitter to be reached with sometimes.
25:11
>> Sometimes they they actually like very much are. Um it really depends.
25:13
uh it very much also differs from who the firm leadership is basically.
25:19
And so there are firms that I think are looking at this as this is going to happen.
25:23
This is going to transform our business.
25:26
We should start thinking about two things and these are the ones that I think are the most sophisticated.
25:31
We should start thinking about how does our business model change.
25:34
Do we do fixed fee for certain things so we can get efficiency at scale and then billable hour on top?
25:40
Uh do we create SAS products?
25:40
I mean even as extreme as that.
25:42
The second thing that I think is much more interesting is how do we focus on teaching people how to be really good partners and I think the best thing that could happen to the industry is the industry is forced to 100% focus on how do you like time to partner basically and reducing time to partner as quickly as possible and right now the industry doesn't focus on that enough.
26:06
I'm not by no means a legal expert, but my understanding is that document review is where a lot of these law firms get the most billboard hours.
26:13
It generates a lot of their [clears throat] revenue.
26:14
I could imagine even if you come to them and say, "Hey, I've got this thing.
26:18
It's going to save you a bunch of time."
26:21
That's actually kind of destroying their margins in the near term.
26:22
Do you have that problem where you're pitching and then they're like, "Well, this is great, but I also love billing for all these hours."
26:29
>> Yeah, I think we had that problem in the beginning.
26:31
beginning. Um so that was very very difficult in like early 2023 probably difficult throughout early 2024 and then it got to the point where they just felt that this was inevitable right um in other words like AI is going to get adopted by either our competitors right and so that's really important and so this is just a comp something that we
26:50
need to do in order to compete and then more importantly I think oh it's getting adopted by our clients like our clients are just going to use these things ourselves right um themselves and so I think that point the firms are now actually taking this very seriously and thinking about how they can transform around that reality. Like it has become
27:05
Like it has become a reality.
27:07
It wasn't in 2023 and I I think for a vast amount of 2024 it wasn't either. >> Yeah.
27:13
I guess it's you're in a good position as the arms dealer be like well I'll just go to the law firm next door and they'll buy [laughter] it.
27:17
[gasps] >> I mean I think like they are all it's it's highly competitive, right?
27:21
Um, but this has already been happening where you're starting like this was happening way before Genai where you had these like rain maker partners that were basically, you know, they were like bas players like that level of salary, right?
27:36
And so you already had kind of this pyramid system starting to go like this, right?
27:42
And the top partners being able to grab as much business and market share as possible.
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30:00
>> So, correct me if I'm wrong.
30:00
Are you a first-time founder? >> I am.
30:02
And correct me if I'm wrong, you were an associate for one year at a law firm. Is that right? Okay.
30:07
So, how do you convince all of these customers that you know what you're talking about?
30:14
>> Do you know what you're talking about?
30:15
>> Do I know what I'm talking?
30:15
Um, yeah, I mean, great question.
30:17
Um, I mean, in the beginning it was you just have to spend so much time with them.
30:22
Um, and you speak I I do think it is helpful coming from the domain, right?
30:26
from the domain, right? like just being able to speak their language and understanding like even going through law school is a little bit of a process right and we work with a lot of law schools right now actually um and there is some sort of universal bond that you get just through going through law
30:42
school even if you haven't practiced for a very long time and that kind of makes you more familiar and you can get in there um and then over time I think you just build trust right like you build you sign a bunch of firms they really love the product the users start reaching ing out to you, you start to create, you know, community and ecosystem. Um, and you can build that.
31:00
Um, and you can build that.
31:03
But I I still get uh there are so many comments on the internet about baby lawyer.
31:07
Like they call me a baby lawyer.
31:09
Um, so that definitely exists.
31:09
Um, >> do you send them the valuation in response?
31:12
[laughter] >> I don't know if that would make me feel more or less of a baby lawyer.
31:15
Um, my point here is I think you have to be very humble and go to them and say, I understand some of this industry.
31:24
I at least have the bones of this industry in me, but you have a lot more experience than I do.
31:30
Um, and I think at this point now, the thing that I can actually help them with is market data, right?
31:35
So, we have enough customers both on the corporate side and the law firm side that I at least know how the market is thinking about these things, uh, including their clients, right?
31:45
And so, that that builds tons and tons of trust.
31:49
>> You're only three years old as a company, right? >> Yeah.
31:51
But do you have any data on uh what employment hiring looks like at the firms you work with? Do they hire less? Do they hire more?
32:00
>> Yeah, we don't have data on that yet.
32:00
Um and I don't think there has been a significant impact on hiring yet.
32:03
Um >> do you think there will be?
32:07
>> My gut is there will be some hiring freezes.
32:09
So I don't think that it will be cutting.
32:11
It'll be some potential hiring freezes as they figure it out.
32:16
I'm not sure if that'll be more on the law firm side or the in-house corporate side.
32:19
I've definitely seen some of that on the corporate side. I've seen the reverse.
32:23
I've seen corporates say, "Actually, what we're going to do is hire more people inhouse, right, and send less work to outside counsel."
32:30
So, it it really depends by organization.
32:34
>> I love when the co actually answers the question.
32:35
[laughter] You you know, we we ask AICOS that kind of question all the time and it's very pie in the sky.
32:39
Like, I love that you just answer that.
32:43
>> I mean, I I think we'll just see.
32:43
The the one comment I will have for legal work is, you know, 50 years ago, 20 years ago, there were basically like no international mergers, right?
32:52
So when you did a merger, it was normally like pretty local.
32:55
Uh there probably weren't that many documents in the data room, etc.
32:59
Fast forward now, like how many law firms do you think were involved and how many geographies were involved in the Microsoft Activision merch? >> Oh god.
33:07
>> I mean, just like hundreds of different partners, a >> lot of Yeah. A beak wedding for that.
33:12
How many documents do you think were in that? Right?
33:14
And so now let's fast forward and say that those two companies were going to merge in 10 years, right?
33:21
>> What do the data rooms look like and how complex is that merge then? Right?
33:24
And so I think one thing that people don't think about with legal and professional services is most of it is actually cyclical with the economy.
33:33
cyclical with the economy. So there's bankruptcy and litigation which is counteryclical but most of it is cyclical which means as things get more complex and GDP goes up you need more lawyers to support it right and so we'll see like it you >> don't you need it when it goes down too
33:49
>> isn't it both you kind of >> that's for bankruptcy in litigation >> you're going to be good no matter what basically >> yeah but I think that most law firms revenue the consistent revenue comes from the transactional side which does parallel the economy >> I know another angle of uh looking at teams and how they're changing. You've
34:05
You've talked about reducing burnout. >> Yeah.
34:08
>> Um I know that's a very big debate right now whether you call it Jevans paradox or something else that you know if you make a tool that makes people faster, they'll just do more work.
34:16
I know the legal world is definitely known for its intense demands.
34:19
Uh how is it going to reduce burnout?
34:23
Is it just going to mean people do more work or how are you thinking about that?
34:27
>> Yeah, so this is the this is the thing I think I'm most excited for and it's because I was a junior associate.
34:31
I work, you know, when I was a junior associate, maybe I worked, I don't know, 70 hours a week, 60 hours, something like that.
34:38
I work much more than that.
34:41
Now I'm way less burned out.
34:41
It's like not even close.
34:44
And so my point with this is I do not think that in 10 years lawyers are going to do less work.
34:50
They'll work exactly the same hours.
34:52
Like I think that is completely nonsense.
34:54
Like that's not what's going to happen.
34:56
But if they are doing work that they enjoy significantly more, they won't be as burned out.
35:01
Like the main reason you have so much burnout in a lot of these professions is not just the hours, it's what you're doing. >> It's monotonous.
35:09
>> Yeah, it's monotonous.
35:09
That that's like mostly what it is.
35:11
Um and that's why you see, you know, in law school, a lot of law schools, you work just as hard as you do in big law.
35:16
You don't burn out in law school, though.
35:19
>> It's because it's much more exciting and you're learning new things and you're trying new things.
35:22
And in a lot of law firms, it depends which law firm, it depends who your mentors are, you're doing things that are incredibly monotonous, right?
35:29
And you do that as a discipline mechanism because at some point in 10 years you're maybe going to go to trial, right?
35:37
And if you can go to trial in three years or something like that, I don't think you'll get as much burned out.
35:42
You'll still work 60, 70 hours a week, 80 hours a week.
35:46
>> So AI helps us just work more, but but feel better about it. >> Yes.
35:49
No, I think that's right.
35:49
I I work the same but feel better about the work that we're doing.
35:53
I I strongly believe that's what will happen. Yeah.
35:55
So tell us more about the initiative with colleges uh trying to get in early with the students.
36:01
I have a very fond memory of getting my uh first MacBook that came with an iPod.
36:07
Do you remember that when it was for like 18-year-olds going to college for the first time and then you become an Apple user for life, right?
36:14
>> Is that the idea here?
36:15
>> Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah.
36:15
Um so well, aren't you happy that you got that computer? So there you go.
36:20
I'm not saying it's a bad strategy. >> Yeah. Yeah.
36:22
Um so yeah, we we partner with a lot of law schools.
36:24
Um, I think that there's a couple reasons why we're doing that.
36:29
One is everyone was using JGBT.
36:31
[laughter] Like, let's just be honest.
36:33
Like, even if the law schools ban these things, like they're still using chat GBT on the side.
36:38
So, students are going to learn how to use AI.
36:40
Like, they're going to figure it out whether the school bans it or doesn't ban.
36:44
>> Law schools clearly is rampant. >> Yeah.
36:46
It's just like >> what you need is me.
36:48
>> Ex my my point here is they're going to use AI tools, right?
36:51
And I think there were a lot of law schools in the beginning that were banning these tools and things like that.
36:56
And basically we decided to partner with them and say here's a tool that's like much more fitted, right?
37:01
And it hallucinates significantly less.
37:03
Here's a b it has legal data, things like that, right?
37:04
And I do, yes, part of the strategy is that they use that and they understand how to use it and then they get to a firm and they're used to using it or they get, you know, to a corporate or something like that.
37:16
But I also think it's just a really good experime experience to experiment with the product because what you do in law school is very different than what you do in practice.
37:23
And one thing that I really am interested in building is if you have AI systems that can actually do a lot of work from start to finish, you could turn them into training modules really fast and then you have basically like personalized law school training programs and that would be really interesting to me.
37:39
And you can think of the same thing for associates too.
37:42
I know there's been some skepticism online uh about the company and its capabilities.
37:49
What have you learned from that experience?
37:51
Even if it's just responding, >> oh yeah, this was the Reddit [laughter] thing or something and you're like, here's my retention numbers feast on this >> feast on this. Yeah.
37:59
I mean, that was that was maybe a good strategy, but then I also realized that our customer base probably isn't totally sure what the retention numbers mean.
38:06
So, >> or like what is Reddit? >> Yeah. Yeah.
38:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um it is crazy how much perception of these things can kind of like spread and I am not the most vocal founder and I think that it's really important to make sure that you are like actually as the founder going out and
38:24
telling your story and talking know this is going to work well for you uh and going out there and saying the narrative for you and just being direct about like what the statistics are, what's product usage look like, where are the problems, where have you made mistakes. If you
38:35
If you don't do that, someone's gonna do it for you.
38:39
And that's like the main thing I learn.
38:41
>> I mean, as we're seeing in all sorts of realms, whether it's political or otherwise, I feel like people would so much rather you just be honest and if you make a mistake, apologize then try and >> pretend that everything's perfect and hunky dory and this and that.
38:54
>> And nothing is perfect.
38:54
I mean, there's no way like any of these startups that are growing this fast.
38:58
I mean, hey, if someone if someone has this magically down and they don't feel like they're in their their company is at all times like going up and down and up and down, uh, and they're growing as fast as we are, like congrats to them.
39:09
They're the best in the world and that's awesome.
39:11
Um, it's really hard, right?
39:13
And you do like we have made some product mistakes.
39:16
I think in like 2023 we had some product mistakes.
39:20
Our usage is incredible now.
39:23
Um, and I probably should have been a little bit more honest about some of the mistakes we made in the earlier years instead of kind of just being like, "Our usage is amazing right now." Right. >> Yeah, it is funny.
39:30
It's a blessing and a curse to have users that love you so deeply.
39:35
And I I speak from that from p personal experience from the browser company years.
39:39
You know, you build such a strong relationship with people and when you make a decision this way or the other, all of a sudden the expectations are a lot different because you've been so transparent this this whole time.
39:48
So, it definitely can bite you as well.
39:52
Yeah, the the nice thing is like it's it's a plus and a negative where all of our users are very loud.
39:56
Um, which is awesome because I think it makes it so that you kind of have like a short-term moat of just because you have so many you have hundreds and thousands of users and they're all being so loud with feedback, right?
40:07
Um, and it's just hard to like amass that amount of feedback from users.
40:11
Uh, at the same time, you know, sometimes it's more of the negative feedback [laughter] than the positive feedback.
40:16
And so it can feel like the usage numbers aren't the same as like the feedback you're getting.
40:20
>> Yeah, I haven't got to ask this.
40:20
I keep forgetting to ask someone.
40:22
So, you're going to be the guy.
40:24
>> Are you applying AI to all of the customer support feedback requests, this and that?
40:29
I wonder like that's got to be getting dramatically better as a product company, right?
40:32
Just when you can get through all that stuff and it isn't just keyword tagging or something like that.
40:37
We do tons of it internally, like a massive amount internally because one of the biggest problems is when you're shipping this quickly and you have enterprise clients, enterprise clients have like extremely strict comms requirements of basically like how you you can't just ship tons of things and not tell them about it.
40:54
That is like not they're going to get upset.
40:56
Um you have versioning and all these different things.
40:59
And so we found that doing the internal stuff helps a lot, but the external still is mostly like in person and things like that.
41:08
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43:21
>> Uh, rumor is you're working on a mobile app.
43:23
Is it going to be Android first?
43:24
>> Um, it is not going to be Android first.
43:27
>> Tell us about it though.
43:27
Tell us about the mobile strategy. >> Yeah. Yeah.
43:29
[laughter] >> Great question.
43:30
Um, yeah, I already got the wrong answer.
43:33
So, uh, the the mobile strategy is actually pretty simple.
43:35
Uh, a lot of partners like the the higher up.
43:39
So, our our usage actually 22% of our users is partners, which is quite high.
43:43
Um, but I want that to be higher than it is.
43:46
Uh, and mobile is just where most partners live.
43:49
Actually, mobile and tablet.
43:50
So, tablet is incredibly popular among professional service providers.
43:55
>> Not this one, but that. >> Yeah, only that one. No.
43:56
Um, and so it's basically there's a lot of functionality that you can do that's really interesting.
44:03
So, I I'll give you an example.
44:05
>> Some of the things that we process, it's not like chat based.
44:07
It's basically I want to like ask a bunch of questions over millions of documents.
44:11
that can take like 10 minutes, right?
44:13
Or a decent amount of time.
44:15
And so if you can do something where you send that request just like you'd be sending that request like an email to an associate to go do the task and then Harvey does that task on the platform and then you get an email back that says it's ready and then you go on even that is like a massive massive deal.
44:30
Um just in terms of the communication and being able to send work.
44:35
>> Uh you're probably getting sick uh of being asked about this but uh rappers.
44:39
So you you know you all are I think looked at as probably the preeminent example of a very good quote unquote rapper company.
44:45
That used to be derogatory. Now I'm not sure.
44:48
>> Now I feel like people [clears throat] have moved on from it. Rappers are hot.
44:51
Like everyone's a rapper company and they're killing it.
44:52
Um and so I'm wondering like what it was like going through that initial phase of like oh my god you're doing a rapper to now and what what shifted what changed? >> Yeah.
45:04
Um I mean I think like the the main thing that started to happen at least for us.
45:08
least for us. So, so one thing that happened internally uh for sure is almost like the vast majority of our enterprise clients have like enterprise GPT like chat GPT they have they have it or they have anthropic or they have something like that and they still use
45:24
us right and so I think that's part of what partially what happened is a lot of the rapper fear was it's just like a distribution problem like in other words all these enterprises because in the beginning a lot of what enterprises did is they bought Azure instances and they made like Acme Corp chatbot, right? Like
45:38
Like that's like what they did.
45:42
They didn't actually buy from Anthropic or or um OpenAI.
45:46
And so I think part of what happened is now that penetration is quite high and these apps are still very successful.
45:53
And so I think that the the Valiant investors and founders and everyone in the ecosystem discovered wait there are like Moes that you can build here so far, right?
46:02
Um, and I feel very confident that, you know, like our largest indirect competitors are the large language model providers, like 100%.
46:10
And I think you should constantly think about your company as that.
46:12
Like that's way they're way more of competition long term than anyone else. >> Yeah.
46:17
Do you worry about getting sherlocked by open AI or anthropic? >> 100%.
46:20
And I think it is the best hygiene for an application layer company to have.
46:25
Like I think if you are thinking that you are going to make some company bets that prepare you for that long term.
46:32
It's going to make you maybe eat some short-term gains but it will help you long term.
46:37
And I I'll give you an example of this as simple as we started our GTM strategy going to like the largest firms and the largest enterprises.
46:45
The reason why is partially I strongly believe that if these systems get better a lot of the lower-end legal work is going to get commoditized.
46:53
So if you build something for that, it's much easier for you know chatb come in and just basically obliterate you right and so even simple simple things like that like that probably slowed down our revenue growth by a lot right um but I think it's worth it because long term and there's a lot more bets that we've made that are like that but I think you just constantly have to have that mindset.
47:14
>> Is it a tricky balance though because I feel like you you probably talk to people at the labs all the time I mean you're a revenue source for them through their APIs.
47:20
>> How does that song and dance go?
47:20
Yeah, I mean >> you probably get previews of new models like how do you know like >> we we do but >> but then you're also like oh they may try to kill me one day.
47:30
>> Yeah, there's two there's two levels to this I think.
47:31
So level one which hopefully everyone is constantly thinking about is in order to get value capture my platform has to be x amount better than whatever you can get from them. Right? So that's number one.
47:43
Hopefully everyone is thinking that way [laughter] long term. That's the easiest one.
47:46
The the sec or easiest to think about.
47:48
The second one is just assume that they're just going to directly go into your vertical.
47:51
Just no matter what, just assume that they're going to.
47:53
How would you defend against that and on what time scale, right?
47:56
And you can think like what are the advantages that they would have? What would they build?
48:03
How would they get mass distribution?
48:04
Like all of these different things.
48:04
And if you're thinking about that stuff long term, you might be giving up ground to some like current competitors in the like startup space, but long term you have like a just a much bigger moat against I think what actually matters.
48:20
>> I like the way that you framed it as layers because I think there's more to it than we often think here in tech.
48:24
I think as so many of us being, you know, techsavvy and loving products and many engineers here, they're like, "Oh, if it's 5 to 7% better, I'm switching."
48:31
But you forget that like when you use something like chat GBT, even if it's a custom one, um not only have they maybe never reached out to your company to explain exactly how it maps to your use cases, but the user interface itself is also in is also in the end kind of generic, right? Yes.
48:49
And so I actually think there are a lot of opportunities even if it's the wrapper layer to really like provide that solution as it were to the customer the actual job to be done which includes onboarding which includes includes distribution especially I would think for [snorts] these companies that are >> not quite as techsavvy right >> oh 100%.
49:08
And the other problem for this is like even if you thought the best product ever was just chatbt with all the correct sources, which I don't think it is, but pretend that that's what you did.
49:19
How do they get all of the correct context?
49:21
Like if you think about how difficult it is to get all of the context for an M&A, it is all over the place.
49:29
And so you have to build systems that a in the first place can actually pull that context and then b get the right answer.
49:34
right answer. And the reality is a lot of the reasoning of getting the right answer isn't something the models just randomly will understand because it's more like in the past we've agreed to these set of terms and in the future we'll agree to other ones right so there's a lot of market data and all of these other things
49:53
>> you told us before we got on that you don't want to get asked about AGI so I'm not going to ask you about AGI but um as someone who you know is building your business on top of these LLMs and is obviously very much matters to you and your company, where they go, how they trend, >> what do you expect to happen over the next year or so? What are the what are
50:10
What are the what are the uh gains you're expecting to see?
50:14
What are you excited about that Harvey can build on?
50:17
>> I want tool use to get really good.
50:18
That's like the most important thing for us.
50:20
Um I think of most of the problems that we need to solve as the product problem is how do you build the surface area for every single complex like legal tax compliance use case and then the AI problem is how do you orchestrate all of the tools together to get the right answer.
50:38
Um the first part I just don't need the models to get better to do the second part I do.
50:44
>> So I have another question about the future of these products.
50:45
I know we often have best practices, you know, when it comes to the way that products look or are designed.
50:52
>> How are you thinking about that?
50:52
Making it both powerful but also accessible in a way.
50:57
Like a lot of these folks are not using the new material expressive uh from, you know, Google on their new phone with all the colors and bounce and juice.
51:06
We love that stuff, but that could be pretty scary to to some of your customers. >> Yeah.
51:10
So, so I actually I think that one of the traditional problems with like [snorts] B2B versus B TOC is B2B has usually not allowed for that much creativity and so creative folks sometimes like don't want to do those things or they feel limited or like hamstrung.
51:30
The reality is there aren't B2B companies anymore. They're AI companies.
51:34
And because of that, I think customers are more willing to explore something different.
51:39
And so you can be more creative with like in a traditional industry where normally you'd have a UI that is very much like it has to be this way, it has to be templated, etc.
51:47
I think you can take more creative risk there because your customers are open to it.
51:54
>> So there's almost like a permission now with this step change >> 100%.
51:57
Like everyone kind of has the energy of we can everything's going to change, right?
52:02
And because of that kind of like entropy, you can get folks to be more on board with wild ideas.
52:08
And even if that wild idea is like adding a little bit of color to a legal tool.
52:14
>> Speaking of wild ideas, with few minutes we have left, I hear you like to interview candidates inside of Google Docs. Is that true? Shadow Google. >> Um, somewhat. Yeah.
52:21
I mean, very quick writing samples, like doing a written project back and forth is very, very helpful.
52:28
Um, and there there's something about I've definitely had folks that are very good at like presenting things and then once they get to like writing it out and you guys are working on like very direct questions in this Google doc, things like that, it can break down.
52:45
And what I've found is if they are very good at here's a problem set whether I start with the document or they start with the document comment in this and then we just go live and start going back and forth going back and forth.
52:58
It actually is like a very good indicator of how well we'd work together.
53:01
>> It's more so just doing the work. Correct.
53:03
>> I mean, I guess you know, like you already see a lot of that in engineering.
53:06
>> You do see this and I think like one of the big problems with hiring in the other roles is there are folks that are really good at talking and they're just terrible at doing.
53:13
And to me, what that's going to turn into is they ask for a billion one-on-one and strategy sessions.
53:20
And so, why not start the interview process async? No, I'm serious.
53:23
like do a lot of the meeting in person, but then figure out how you'd work together async because I mostly work async, right?
53:28
Like with the reports that I work best with, it's async, right?
53:32
That's how everyone moves quickly.
53:33
Otherwise, we're going to have 17 strategy meetings to like do anything.
53:36
>> Is that the way you I mean because I imagine your headcount's exploding right now, right?
53:39
You're growing like crazy.
53:41
Is that how you make sense of all of this as you're >> scaling? Yes. Yeah.
53:42
I mean, I'm definitely a zero out Slack every like 20 minutes person.
53:46
Um but I I >> think your valuation just went down. >> Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. I'm not scaling. Um, no.
53:52
I I actually this is something I think you can scale much better.
53:59
The reason I mean I'm sure there's a scale where you can't, but the reason I think this isn't as hard as people think it is is if you are constantly paying attention to like most things that are going on at the company, all you're doing is going from yesterday to today.
54:15
Like that's all the catchup that you have to do. And so it's very easy.
54:19
you can read like the first two sentences and know exactly what's going to come next, right?
54:23
If what you do instead is you completely ignore parts of the business and then you come back in after a month, it's just context overload.
54:32
Like it is impossible to get all that information and you basically have to rely on like very good direct reports and they are very good but you're going to miss something like you're going to and so I try to do a decent amount of just like async reviewing and things like that.
54:46
Yeah, I know there's uh always a tendency with new founders to want to try and reinvent everything. Yeah.
54:53
Is there anything you're telling yourself, no, I can't touch this? >> Um, yeah.
54:57
I mean, one thing I definitely argue with my uh chief people officer about a lot is I'm like, I should have more direct reports.
55:04
Um, >> that's trendy now, right? >> It is. Yeah.
55:08
And and I think it's like a it's just a delicate balance because there's there's what I find is there are this is kind of like the question you asked earlier which was best and worst advice.
55:18
There are problems at the company that are best served by scale like disciplined scale.
55:23
There are problems at the company that are best served by a Navy sales team, right?
55:28
And figuring out what is the combination of both is super important.
55:33
If you only do the scaling, you're just going to lose. It's too slow.
55:38
If you do only the Navy Seals, once you get to a certain level of revenue of folks, etc.
55:42
, you're it's just going to be impossible to stay on top of and you're going to not be able to scale.
55:48
So, the thing I'm trying to balance constantly, and I haven't figured out the best answer to this, is how do you combine the scaled system with the Navy Seal system?
55:56
And I think you do need both.
55:58
Like, I strongly strongly believe you need both.
55:59
Yeah, I've seen examples of it gone right and wrong, especially with over or under documentation in something like Slack.
56:10
>> Uh, have you created an etiquette? Are you threads people? How do you all do it?
56:15
>> Um, we definitely have etiquette for like certain channels.
56:17
Uh, we we had a a a time when there was just like every single thing was put into like the company general channel and it was just like no one read anything.
56:26
>> Kind of a sad moment when that general channel >> oh my god >> ends, right?
56:29
Yeah, it's like ah there's got to be a number.
56:32
I don't know exactly what it is.
56:34
>> Yeah, my guess is it's like 150 or something.
56:37
>> Oh, we didn't have Slack back then. >> Oh, yeah. >> We were not so lucky.
56:41
>> Yeah, >> but we definitely we run like everything through Slack.
56:42
Like if I get in I don't know.
56:45
Emails are like the the worst way to reach me on earth.
56:47
Um and I think like our leadership team is really good at this of just kind of like being on top of this too.
56:53
We used to have like a Slack rankings um but we got rid of it which was basically just like how many messages have you sent back and forth um but I think people were including myself were kind of rigging it uh so we got rid of it.
57:05
>> You said you don't post a lot but I feel like you do a good job repeating messaging >> from the company.
57:11
Is that a conscious thing?
57:13
>> Um it's because I'm trying to do it better internally.
57:15
And so what I've found is the best comm strategy, you can't, it's almost impossible to have a different comm strategy internally than you do externally.
57:26
It's almost impossible or it seems very very difficult.
57:29
And so a lot of our commitments, [laughter] >> uh, one thing that's that's I think been super helpful is repetition is something I'm bad at.
57:39
Like I'm just terrible at it.
57:41
Um, and if if I am doing a poor enough job at it internally, there's no way I'm doing a good job of it externally, right?
57:48
And so I think naturally by improving it internally, I've started doing it more externally, right?
57:54
Uh, and I think your internal is a very good bar where again if you are having trouble communicating something internally, like you're screwed at trying to do it externally.
58:03
>> And Alex is gonna get the leak anyway. So >> yeah. Yeah, it doesn't matter.
58:05
Oh, that that stuff I'm very much like I I'm much more you can say whatever you want with with these sort of things.
58:13
It's like if competition has your road map uh and you still can't win like you're screwed.
58:20
>> I want to end uh kind of looking towards the future.
58:22
So you are scaling very quickly in all these law firms.
58:25
Right now it seems very focused on enabling lawyers.
58:29
>> Is there ever a world where Harvey AIs are settling cases together?
58:32
thinking about that right now.
58:36
>> So, yeah, the two things that we're thinking about are um this we're thinking about a little bit more like we we do a lot of work with the um Singaporean Supreme Court.
58:43
Um and one of the things we do there is basically if you are a citizen there, you can file a small claims uh with Harvey, right?
58:51
And eventually you can imagine a world where both folks do that and then it says here this is the likely chance of settlement.
58:59
Would you like would you both agree and then you go forward, right?
59:01
So that's something we're like actively exploring.
59:04
We'll see what happens with that.
59:04
Um but if you think like this already happens with arbitration.
59:08
That's what arbitration is. >> I saw this.
59:10
Did the arbit the arbitration association they're doing an AI arbitrator?
59:13
They're thinking about this. Yeah. Yeah.
59:14
I mean it's it's basically like you're is it's as long as it's civil, right?
59:18
Like you both are just allowed to agree to this, right?
59:19
Um and so that's how arbitration works.
59:22
And so I think that's something that we're interested in.
59:25
I think the other more other thing that's maybe a little happening a little bit faster is we're finding that our tool is starting to spread into other verticals that we haven't necessarily built it for.
59:35
But just because the nature of legal work is similar to things like tax and like compliance and so a lot of our enterprise customers, they'll use us for legal and then it just spreads to like their tax and compliance teams because a lot of the work they do is pretty much exactly the same.
59:52
They just aren't technically a lawyer.
59:54
So, new verticals for >> Yeah, definitely.
59:57
>> I think my main takeaway is that we don't have the Terminator yet, but we do have the arbitrator. >> Exactly. That'd be great.
1:00:03
>> Thank you so much, Winston. >> Of course. Thank you guys. >> Thank you all. >> Thank you.
1:00:06
[applause] >> Thanks to Winston for coming on the show.
1:00:12
>> A reminder that we're off for Thanksgiving break.
1:00:13
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1:00:15
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