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Honored to be on a product management podcast for a person who doesn't believe product management is real.
0:06
We're already getting into the hot takes.
0:06
You launched tbh, went viral, you end up selling it to Facebook.
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What was the insight that helped you come up with this is a big idea that we should try?
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I looked on the App Store and the number one app in the United States was an app called Surah, but the entire app was in Arabic, like the strongest signal that you could ever have that people want something. This is insane.
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I did not know this full story.
0:30
We launched this app, it immediately took off, servers started crashing.
0:30
I looked at our numbers and I'm like, "We will be number one in the United States in six days."
0:40
A tip that you're sharing here is look for latent demand Where people are trying to obtain a particular value and going through a very distortive process.
0:48
If you can actually crystallize what their motivation is, you can have this kind of intense adoption.
0:57
I didn't know you're actually a product manager at Facebook.
0:59
The thing I didn't realize as a product manager in a large tech company is there is very little product management that you do.
1:04
They're mainly just writing documents and then being the team secretary and running around getting approvals, but products live and die in the pixels.
1:15
You should be designing the hierarchy, the pixels, the flows, everything. That's on you.
1:21
At some point you started tweeting like, "Hey, I'm working on new app.
1:21
Everyone was going nuts."
1:23
I saw a stat that you made $11 million in sales, 10 million downloads.
1:28
The thing that is hard to really understand is it is absolute chaos to keep the thing online.
1:28
I was sleeping three hours a day for three months.
1:34
Our team was also relentless though.
1:34
They would come over to my house, 9:00 AM, stay until midnight and just do that seven days a week.
1:44
Is there anything else that's just like this is something that is probably going to help you with your app?
1:48
With certainty, if you're good at your job, you can make an app grow and go viral.
1:48
Over the years of building all these apps, I've accrued all these growth hacks that still nobody knows about.
2:02
Today, my guest is Nikita Bier.
2:02
Nikita has built, launched and helped get more apps to the top of the app store than any human I've ever come across.
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He sold his first big hit tbh to Facebook for over $30 million.
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He sold his second big app Gas to Discord for many millions more.
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He did this all with a tiny team and very little funding.
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He's also helped dozens of founders and apps, and as an advisor or investor to companies like Flow, Citizen, BeReal, LOCKit and Wealthsimple and many more.
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Today, he spends his time advising companies on viral growth strategies, design feedback, structuring their product development process and a lot more.
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What I love about Nikita is that he has very strong opinions about how to build successful products that are rooted in him actually doing the work over the past decade to see for himself what works and what doesn't.
2:48
Nikita has been the single most requested guests on this podcast, and you'll soon see why.
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This episode is packed with tactics and stories and lessons that I am sure will leave you wanting more.
2:58
If you want to work with Nikita on your app, you can actually book his time at intro. co/nikitabier.
3:01
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
3:08
It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and helps the podcast tremendously.
3:12
With that, I bring you Nikita Bier.
3:16
Nikita, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to dive in.
3:26
I feel honored to be on a product management podcast for a person who doesn't believe product management is real.
3:37
We're already getting into the hot takes.
3:37
We're definitely going to chat about...
3:37
Wait, and you said not real.
3:41
Okay, I thought you were going to say not useful. This is good. Let's put a pin in that.
3:47
I think we think this, I think everyone already feels this.
3:47
I think this is going to be a very special conversation.
3:51
I've been looking forward to chatting you for a long time and there's so much that I want to ask you.
3:55
The way that I'm thinking we frame this conversation is we go through the story behind the apps that you've built or helped build that have hit the top of the app store, and basically here, the inside story of what it took to build those apps and to make them successful.
4:11
Then through that, try to extract as many lessons as we can about what it takes to build a successful viral consumer app these days.
4:17
How does that sound to you?
4:22
Sounds amazing, and a lot of it was luck, but a lot of it was very, very tactical work that went into it all.
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6:00
First, I want to start with something that I think very few people know about you.
6:11
The first thing that you built, the first product that you built was very different from what you do these days, and it's a product called Politify, which something I actually really want.
6:20
It helps you decide who to vote for based on how it would impact your life.
6:24
Can you just share a bit about just that part of your life and why you decided to pivot away from that into consumer apps?
6:36
When I was in college, I was really interested in this kind of thing that American voters do, which is they vote against their own financial self-interest, like people in New York and San Francisco vote for Democrats for higher taxes.
6:47
People in Kansas vote for Republicans for low taxes and they make less money, and so fewer government benefits.
6:54
I wanted to build this tool that would help communicate the financial impacts of these policy proposals of presidents.
7:00
I built it in my last year of college and it was just a web app that we put out and it would calculate their tax proposals, the government benefits that they were proposing, and you would enter in your basic personal information, how many kids you have, your age.
7:21
Then it would just tell you in dollars what the impact would be.
7:29
It'd also tell you, we simulated those policies also against the tax returns of every zip code so you could see how it impacts your community. We went super viral.
7:40
I think very few people thought of politics that way and I think we got 4 million users on it during that season, during that election.
7:47
It was just like a project that we raised some grant money for, but it ended up feeding into this company that we spun up and that was called Outline.
8:03
Because we had a bunch of governments reach out to us asking, "Can you build this for our budget?"
8:08
The governor of Massachusetts actually reached out and I flew out there to meet with them and that was going to be our first customer.
8:15
We raised some money, we won a government contract and we joined Techstars, the accelerator.
8:32
We got a contract in the pipeline with the Obama administration and then we got this contract and we started building it and the government shutdown happened in the middle of like, as we were building it and we had one of our contracts canceled.
8:51
I realized I actually really don't like selling software to governments and my core competency all along was making things that go viral on the internet.
8:59
That was what we had built, not this policy simulation tool.
9:06
We went to our investors and we said, "Look, this isn't actually what we're excited about doing anymore."
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We offered to give the money back and said, "We're going to be building consumer apps and here's a few ideas that we have."
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None of them took the money back.
9:28
Then we spent the next four or five years building a variety of different kind of consumer apps.
9:28
We had a few mild successes during the course of those four to five years.
9:38
One of them was an app called Five Labs that ingested your Facebook posts and determine your personality based on the language you use.
9:52
It used this exact same model that Cambridge Analytica used, and that was super viral.
9:59
I think we had tens of millions of profiles in it and it went viral in like three days.
10:09
We raised some more money based off the success of that and we started focusing a lot more on mobile after that first app, Five Labs.
10:17
We launched basically every type of app you can imagine.
10:25
We launched mapping apps, chat apps, event meetup apps.
10:25
Basically, every consumer app on mobile that you could think of.
10:34
That actually helped us build a muscle to understand what people want and how to actually make things grow and how to test them.
10:41
Over time, we started focusing more on teens.
10:47
A lot of people ask why Silicon Valley is so fixated on building apps for teens.
10:55
One of the reasons is their habits are pretty malleable.
10:55
As we get older, we get fixed into our habits of using certain communication products and we don't really adopt new things.
11:04
Then the other thing that we discovered was that adults don't really invite people to new apps.
11:10
We found that as a user got older from age 13 to 18, the number of people that they invite to an app just declines almost exponentially.
11:24
Finally, and the most important thing is they see each other every day, and that is so critical.
11:29
Consumer app developers sometimes say smokers are great for targeting an audience because they actually hang out serendipitously a lot outside of buildings.
11:42
Not to say social apps are cigarettes, I don't really like that metaphor.
11:50
Just on the note of you talking about why teens are important, I have this quote actually from you that I love where building on the point you made that for every social app I've ever built and the number of invitations sent per user drops 20% for every additional year of age from 13 to 18.
12:06
If you build for adults, expect to acquire every user with ads, and I love that you have a very clear heuristic of per year, the amount of people they invite to the app is 20% lower.
12:18
If your users aren't inviting people to your app, you're going to have to find another way to acquire them, and that most likely means ads.
12:30
If you're targeting older cohorts like adults, you're going to have to raise a huge amount of venture capital to finance that user acquisition pipeline and it's going to be extraordinarily expensive.
12:41
As a seed stage up, it's going to be basically impossible to grow that user base, especially to get density if you need actual network effects among users.
12:55
Basically, you're building this help me decide who to vote for app that turned into a real business with government contracts coming to you trying to help you, pushing you to build something that you end up realizing I don't want to be doing this.
13:07
Why am I building this app selling government contracts.
13:07
What you did is you, and this is a really interesting lesson to take away, is you just realized, I don't want to be doing this.
13:16
Investors don't force me to be working on this. I'm going to stop this.
13:16
I'm going to go work on some other stuff that I'm actually excited about that I think has a bigger chance of success.
13:25
That's where you transition to this startup studio where you're just trying a bunch of apps and I think it was called Midnight Labs, you said, something like that, right? Yeah. Awesome.
13:34
Basically, I think that's a really interesting insight of just like if you're working on something you don't enjoy, you can change that, you can pivot, you can tell your investors I want to work on something else.
13:44
Is there anything there that you want to add along those lines?
13:49
It was really hard for us to pivot to mobile.
13:49
I think that was one of the most challenging things for me personally because it was a completely different paradigm.
13:55
I actually have been building web apps since I was 12 years old.
14:01
I built a full e-commerce business selling pirated games on the web, and I knew everything about growing a website.
14:08
As we pivoted to mobile, I had to recalibrate my whole brain on how to do that.
14:15
Mobile apps have such a low margin for error when it comes to designing them.
14:25
Because I have this dogmatic view that every tap on a mobile app is a miracle for you as a product developer because users will turn and bounce to their next app very quickly.
14:41
If you actually sit behind someone and watch them use their phone, they actually switch between apps at a pretty high frequency.
14:47
Every tap that you get, every single one is so scarce that you should be optimizing everything.
14:52
I had to change my whole brain when we started pivoting to mobile and building these mobile apps, and it took a lot of failures.
15:01
14 of the apps that we launched were basically duds, and then we started fixating on teens and building apps for them.
15:11
Eventually, we figured out an interesting heuristic for identifying consumer product opportunities that ultimately led us to tbh.
15:26
You spent four or five years trying a bunch of different ideas.
15:26
I think people see this headline and we'll get into tbh of just like nine weeks after launch sells for $30 million to Facebook and everyone's like, "Oh, okay, that's amazing.
15:35
I want that for my life."
15:40
Nobody knows there's this four or five years of trying, you said 15 different apps before you got there, learning the things that actually work and don't work.
15:49
We built 15 apps over the course of that pivot to consumer, and we built apps for every single app, map apps, chat apps, to-do lists.
15:59
We just built every type of consumer app you could possibly think of.
16:05
Also, we built for every audience too.
16:05
We built for college students, we built for post-college.
16:12
It was always very difficult to get the flywheel spinning for anyone after like 22 years old.
16:20
That was the cutoff of when people just give up on adopting new products.
16:29
It took us a few years to really internalize that, a lot of failures to realize no one needs another app after that age.
16:44
The thing that you found there, which is really interesting because most people are building for people older than 22, that's a profound insight you had there.
16:48
Every consumer app I see is trying to build for adults, and your lesson there is basically if you're trying to do that, you're probably going to need to raise money and spend a lot of money on paid ads.
17:03
Most likely, you'll never get network effects.
17:03
There's actually an interesting study many years ago that some academics in Spain did, I think it was in Spain, and they looked at how many people you text per year of your life, and it goes up very quickly from 14 to 18.
17:15
It peaks around 21, so it's growing.
17:28
The number of people you text is growing up until about 21, and then it just falls, it collapses, and then it comes back up at end of life.
17:34
There's a few reasons all this happens, but basically, once you exit college, you reduce the number of contacts, your daily contacts.
17:48
Once you get married, it's even fewer.
17:48
Then as you get older and your kids start having kids and you become a grandparent, you start texting again more or you join a retirement home.
17:59
If you're building a product with network effects that's a communication tool, you want to be on that upward curve of adding connections to your social graph because then the urgency to connect is higher.
18:12
If you really want to actually innovate at the edges of communication products, you really have to target that cohort that has the highest urgency to communicate, and that's teens.
18:28
I love that you found these things out, not through just research and not through just thinking, it was through actual trying things over and over and over and trying different audiences, trying different experiences.
18:38
A lot of people see your advice and they're like, "How does he know?"
18:41
It's just you've done all these things yourself.
18:41
You've seen them, you're sitting there watching teens use these apps.
18:45
I think very few people actually do that, and they just come up with these theories that aren't based in empirical evidence.
18:54
We got pretty good at building these apps.
18:54
I think our first mobile app took us about a year, and then our last one took us about two weeks.
19:01
We also got very good at testing apps.
19:01
The most important thing that I often instruct teams to do is to develop a reproducible testing process, and that will actually influence the probability of your success more than anything.
19:14
It's so unpredictable whether a consumer product idea will work.
19:21
If you actually focus more on your process for taking many shots at bat, that's what actually reduces the risk more than anything.
19:30
We figured out ways to seed apps into schools.
19:38
We also, during the course of that company, we figured out how to seed it into affinity groups, hobbyists, things like that.
19:44
We were on app number 15, a lot of failures during the course of this company, and I remember a lot of our team members were like, "I kind of want to leave.
20:04
I think this is it for me."
20:04
One of our key team members actually put in their two weeks' notice.
20:11
The day before we launched our final app, we were getting kind of low on money. I was tired.
20:19
I called our lawyer to ask, how do you dissolve a company?
20:19
I messaged a few mentors saying like, one people that have been through it, and I said, "What are the steps to do this?"
20:30
Then I had a conversation on the way out with that team member that wanted to leave, and I said, "I understand, but what if the app actually starts charting on the App Store?"
20:44
He said, "What are the chances of that?
20:52
You know that's not going to happen." I said, "Sure, okay."
20:52
We launched this app and it was a polling app, tbh, and it immediately took off in the school that we seeded it into, in Georgia.
21:11
We picked the one school that had the earliest start date in the United States because we needed to launch as soon as possible, given the state of the company.
21:26
I think it spread to 40% of the school downloaded it in the first 24 hours and it rapidly spread to the neighboring schools.
21:33
Suddenly, I was like, "Oh, we might have something here."
21:33
Servers started crashing and watching it climb the charts.
21:41
I looked at our numbers and I'm like, "We will be number one in the United States in six days."
21:50
Then I looked at our Amazon bill and it was like 120,000.
21:58
I looked at our bank account, it said 150,000.
21:58
I'm like, "Okay, these two numbers don't really..."
22:04
I quickly had to put together a funding round and I told my team, "Can you guys just pause for two months and just really focus on this?
22:11
I think I could probably sell this thing."
22:16
It turned into a pretty competitive bidding process, actually.
22:21
There was a really, really great moment where there was one of the acquirers, or one of the bidders was based in LA, had told me to fly down, and they told me to fly down that day.
22:39
I got on a plane, went to the airport without a ticket, showed up.
22:39
When we were rolling out this app, we were doing a state-by-state rollout strategy where every state was geo-fenced.
22:45
We hadn't launched California until that morning.
22:53
I arrived at this company, this founders in LA's house, and he said, "Show me the metrics.
23:03
You guys are like, what?
23:03
Number four or something?"
23:03
Since we just launched California, it's a big state.
23:12
I said, "No, we're actually number one.
23:12
We're the number one app in the United States."
23:16
He said, "Show me the metrics."
23:16
Our CTO, Erik Hazzard, is a published author in mapping.
23:24
He created an amazing dashboard that could show real-time installs on a map.
23:31
It was around 4:00 PM and school had just gotten out, so I zoomed in on the block that we were having that meeting, and the entire block was lit up with installs all around us.
23:43
Then that's what got the ball rolling on a...
23:43
It was a really, really like, cinematic moment of showing something that you created that literally just took over the entire neighborhood around you. That's insane.
24:02
That's going to be in the movie of Nikita Bier in the future.
24:05
A couple of questions here.
24:05
One, you predicted the chart, you would hit number one.
24:09
What does it take to hit number one?
24:09
What is the number you're looking at?
24:12
Is it some number downloads to get to number one in the App Store? It fluctuates.
24:16
It used to be like 80 to 100,000 installs, but now you have these companies that are just spending extraordinary amounts on ads and or injecting it into one of their other apps.
24:28
Between Threads, Temu and all these other apps that are spending on acquisition and all that, some days it's up to 300,000. That's per day? Yeah. Oh, man. Amazing.
24:43
At the peak of tbh, we were getting 360,000 per day.
24:49
The other two things I want to spend a little time on here before we move on to the next app is, what was the insight that helped you come up with this is a big idea that we should try?
24:57
Then what was the insight into how to spread this so virally?
24:57
I know that one is really close. ...
25:00
to how to spread this so virally, and I know that one is really clever.
25:04
After building all these apps, we had these kind of lingering users that stuck around and would share feedback with us on our next app.
25:10
And so there were a couple, like there's a senior in high school that I would send screenshots of our products.
25:16
He told me about this trend called TBH that kids were playing on Snapchat, where they would post an image of a bunch of emojis and it would say like, "I like you. Your smart. Your style is great."
25:33
And you would just reply to the story with the emoji of what you felt.
25:39
And I was like, "This is kind of weird.
25:39
You post this on your story and then people send you feedback."
25:43
And I'm like, "So teens are looking for this vehicle for disclosure essentially."
25:52
And I'm like, "That's kind of cool.
25:52
I wonder if you could make that into an app."
25:52
We had sketched some things out.
25:58
As we were sketching things out, I looked on the app store, and the number one app in the United States was an app called Sarahah.
26:07
It was for sending anonymous messages by adding a link to your Snapchat story.
26:13
But the thing that was most interesting was the entire app was in Arabic.
26:20
The number one app in the United States was in Arabic.
26:20
And that was one of the most strongest signal that you could ever have that people want something.
26:28
And so when I meet with founders, I often tell them like, "The way you should be searching for product ideas is this concept of latent demand where people are trying to obtain a particular value and going through a very distortive process to obtain that value."
26:48
And if you can actually crystallize what their motivation is and build a product around and clear up what they're trying to actually do, you can have this kind of intense adoption.
27:04
When we saw what people were doing with Sarahah, I also looked at some of the tweets and comments on it.
27:14
A lot of people were receiving negative messages.
27:18
messages. And so what I saw with the game that kids were playing on Snapchat TBH and then Sarahah, I realized just people want to know good things about themselves and that they don't want these bullying messages that they're getting on these anonymous apps, and I was like,
27:36
"Well, what if instead of actually typing what you wanted to say about somebody, you just answered polls and we authored those polls so that we ensured everything would always be positive?" I mean, in the back of my head, I always knew anonymous apps go viral, but they always lead
27:51
I mean, in the back of my head, I always knew anonymous apps go viral, but they always lead to these awful news stories of kids committing suicide, self-harm and all that.
27:57
And so I was like, "I'll never build anything like that."
28:02
But when we came up with this new mechanic where you could only say positive things through polls, who has the best smile, who's most likely to be president, and then you receive it as anonymous, but your name is selected, what we discovered a couple of things is it made users feel a lot better.
28:19
It actually solved what they were trying to do and they also sent a much higher volume of messages.
28:30
And so it was literally explosive adoption.
28:30
One school I was looking at, they sent 450,000 messages in the first seven days of adopting it.
28:39
And when you look at day one volume of messages sent on a messaging app, you're lucky if people send three or four or something, but we were sending 60 and we couldn't even handle it, so we had to geofence the app because we needed to scale our servers, which is actually a pretty controversial decision inside of our company, because why would you turn off something that's working?
29:04
But at my core, I knew if it's working at this many individual schools, we could just relaunch it any time and it'll go viral.
29:19
So let's regroup and figure out what's happening here and then relaunch.
29:27
So you keep talking about how went viral and crazy, grew like crazy.
29:27
I know that there's a little trick that you came up with to help it spread.
29:30
Can you just briefly talk about what you did there and to help it spread so quickly within a school?
29:37
I think you're referring to, there's a memo that was leaked to BuzzFeed while I was at Facebook.
29:44
The main thing we found was like, to be convinced to download an app, you need to see it.
29:52
You need to see the marketing message three times or so.
29:58
So you basically need to saturate an area with every kind of marketing you can.
29:58
So we ran ads targeted at a particular school to when we were seeding and testing these apps.
30:06
And we also followed people creating a dedicated Instagram account that went to that school, because we learned that high schoolers identify their school in their bio, so it says RHS on their bio.
30:25
And so that was how we tried to get the entire school to adopt synchronously.
30:25
We'd follow them and then accept the followbacks.
30:33
Big misunderstanding though, and I get this DM a lot of people are like, "I'm trying to replicate your strategy.
30:39
We've just done it at 15 schools and it's not working anymore."
30:43
This is not the way we grew the app.
30:43
This is how we tested apps.
30:53
Really, it's a little bit nuanced there.
30:53
That's an important nuance because you need to get enough intensity of adoption and density for a social network to start to get the flywheel spinning, but the app should grow by itself after that.
31:05
And people think we just went from school to school following every kid on it.
31:10
You can't, that's totally unrealistic.
31:10
But for the first 100 users, yes, that's how we got them.
31:16
And that allowed us to know whether the product was working or not.
31:16
We could get enough people on it and then we could, with conviction, say that whether the app had legs and we wouldn't have this kind of uncertainty like, "Oh, did they add enough friends?
31:31
Did we get enough people on it?
31:36
Did they reach the aha moment because you need friends to get on?"
31:41
So we wanted to eliminate that confounding variable, and so we figured out a way to just get a bunch of people to adopt at once.
31:46
And that's one thing I encourage a lot of founders to do, is figure out a way to eliminate all those potentially confounding variables so you can know immediately whether something's working or not.
31:58
You never want to walk away from an experiment or test and say, "Well, maybe the execution was bad because it takes a lot of energy to mobilize a team to test something," and you really want to make sure your tests actually provide signal.
32:18
So your advice here is when you're testing something, test the best possible version of what that could be, whether it takes manual work or something that is never going to scale, test the ideal.
32:24
Because that'll tell you, " Even if this could be the best possible version, do people actually care?"
32:34
Yeah, we would try to get an entire school to adopt, just to know if everyone had 10 friends, would they actually derive value from this app?
32:42
We also did other things, and I recommend all companies do this, is put live chat customer support in your app 24 hours a day. It sounds insane.
32:53
It's like the whole point of tech is you don't need to do that.
33:00
That's the whole point of a software.
33:00
But then users get this white glove experience, and that eliminates another confounding variable, like did they think their problems were solved or they were treated well?
33:14
But most of all, one of the reasons I actually recommend people put live chat in their app is it's the best vehicle for getting feedback and doing user research because users will literally tell you the problem they're having.
33:26
So we had our person that was running this.
33:34
He's name is Michael Gutierrez.
33:34
He's done it for all my companies actually.
33:38
He's the community and customer support rep.
33:38
He would paste any interesting feedback into Slack and then we would be like, "Oh, this user has a great idea.
33:45
We should consider turning that into a feature."
33:50
So you really want your finger on the pulse as you roll these things out so you can get a sense for what's working, what isn't, and also make users feel great and make sure at the end they promote your app positively to their peers.
34:09
I love that piece of advice.
34:09
Okay, so to close out the TBH chapter, is there anything else that you think is important for people to know or any other lasting lessons from that part of your journey that you bring with you to new apps that you're building today?
34:25
I think the thing that is hard to really understand for first-time founders that hit breakout success with a consumer product is how draining and how spread thin you get, because everything breaks.
34:43
Everything that you built needs to be substituted almost every three days.
34:53
I can just give you an example.
34:53
We were just talking about this customer support system that we had.
34:57
The first system broke after three days.
34:57
The next one broke seven days later, we had to replace it with a different one that could scale even better.
35:04
And if you think about that on every dimension of the company, it is absolute chaos to keep the thing online as it scales up.
35:17
And so you have to be ruthless with prioritization as something scales up and put out the largest fires first, because that was something that I didn't really fully understand, is how many things go wrong.
35:35
And if we didn't geofence the app, there would be no way we would've been able to keep that thing online because that gave us some slack to control growth.
35:55
This is a good example of when people ask like, "Hey, does my app have product-market fit?"
35:58
I think this is an example of this is what it looks like when things are breaking every three days when you have to geofence it to keep it from crashing.
36:06
A lot of people ask me like, "What's the benchmark for product-market fit?"
36:06
And this founder that I'm friends with, his name's Roger Dickey, he told me this one time, "If your product's working, you'll know.
36:22
And if there's any uncertainty, it's not working."
36:22
And it really is a binary when it comes to consumer products.
36:31
People are going to be fighting to get into it and you'll find new measures that you've never heard of like, "Our metric was hourly actives per day."
36:47
Not daily active users, hourly active users.
36:47
So you'll start seeing that and it'll be abundantly obvious what product-market fit is.
36:53
You'll know it when you see it is the bottom line.
36:59
Okay, so you launch TBH, it goes viral, start getting offers from companies.
36:59
Nine weeks later after launch, you end up selling it to Facebook.
37:06
What was it like selling your company and then what was it like working at Facebook?
37:10
Which you worked at for four years.
37:15
I was not expecting that when I was looking at your LinkedIn.
37:15
So yeah, what was it like selling?
37:19
What was it like working at Facebook?
37:21
Selling your company is one of the most draining processes you could ever go through as a founder.
37:26
When we met with Facebook, they told me they have 80 people assigned to this deal.
37:26
And I'm like, I have one person, it's just me.
37:36
They were like the SWAT team of M&A.
37:44
The funniest part was they wanted to meet the team as well.
37:44
And so they came out to our office in Oakland, which is a dingy old office that I got for $1,800 a month.
37:50
That was our rent for the office.
37:57
They arrive and they walk in.
37:57
There's two engineers and one designer and me, and they're just like, "This is the whole company?
38:07
This is the number one app in the United States?"
38:07
I'm like, "Yeah, this is it."
38:11
And when we went there, when we arrived, we joined the youth team, which was about, I don't know, 150 people just for this one division of Facebook.
38:18
It was my first job effectively that I've ever had.
38:28
When they told me my title, they said I would be a product manager, I was like, "Okay, I don't know exactly what that is, but yeah, I guess that's what I do."
38:42
I arrive and then I get access to a workplace system where people post all the things they're working on, and I realized it's kind of like this almost academic environment for social networks, like social network development.
38:59
It's like the Harvard of social networks.
38:59
I was reading all these studies that people were doing on like, "Oh, if we change that, this is the impact to retention and DAU."
39:11
I was so impressed, like, "There's a whole science here."
39:20
A lot of the stuff that we did was learned from first principles, but then we saw it actually turn into systems and processes here.
39:25
But the thing I didn't realize as a product manager in a large tech company is there is very little product management that you do.
39:40
You're actually not as involved in the product as I had assumed.
39:40
I thought, "Oh, you're the person who gets in the pixels and designs the flows." Absolutely not.
39:48
You're completely detached from the design process.
39:58
There's a design vertical org that does all that and they don't really want you working on that.
40:04
So that was very difficult for me because when people ask me like, "What do you think you're good at?"
40:10
At the core, I'm a designer.
40:10
I don't consider myself a product manager.
40:15
I'm great at growing things, looking at mixed panel and then designing the things that make it grow.
40:21
But there's a rift between those two things inside of a large tech company.
40:27
And so I loved the academic approach to growing, but it was really hard for me personally as I became disconnected from the design process.
40:33
I think that a lot of my skills atrophied over those four years. But I did stick around.
40:41
I went through multiple orgs.
40:41
Favorite one at the end was new product experimentation where I worked with other founders, a bunch of legends in Silicon Valley, building zero to one products, standalone apps.
40:59
I mean, I was building standalone apps my entire time at Facebook.
41:04
I think I built probably eight apps while I was at Facebook. Wow.
41:12
But it is much, much more difficult to build apps at a large company.
41:12
A lot of the insights that you have are not things that you can necessarily present or put in writing in a VP meeting, like, " We're building an app for teens to flirt."
41:29
That probably is not what you would present to a bunch of McKinsey consultants at.
41:34
So I think that makes it really difficult to be completely intellectually honest about what you're building.
41:42
And when the team isn't honest about it, then it's really hard to iterate toward the right thing in that context.
41:50
Having said that, there's a lot of things you don't have to deal with as a product...
41:55
I don't have to deal think about money, I don't have to think about paying legal bills or doing finance and accounting.
42:05
So all that's abstracted away, but there is regulatory stuff that you have to deal with that I had zero exposure to as a founder of a small company.
42:20
An insight you're sharing there potentially is the reason a company like Facebook isn't amazing at launching completely new product, zero to one stuff, is they might be a little too risk averse and it's hard to talk about stuff that people actually really, really want deeply.
42:32
Is that kind of the sense there?
42:37
It's hard to really verbalize some of the things that motivate us as people.
42:37
There's a tweet I put out that's kind of dogmatic in terms of how I view why people download apps and it's very simple.
42:59
It's like people download apps to make or save money.
42:59
Examples of that might be like WhatsApp, where free texting.
43:08
And then the other reason is to find a mate, so maybe like Tinder or Snapchat, find love.
43:16
And the third is to unplug from reality maybe like Netflix or Fortnite.
43:16
There's a bunch of other kind of subcategories that are very utilitarian like movement, Uber or Airbnb, like shelter.
43:27
And so I think putting that in a framing document and the particular nuanced reason why people are going to adopt is difficult when you're presenting that to people that are seasoned professionals and care about how something might reflect on them personally.
43:50
And so that's really difficult inside of a large company.
43:50
You'd certainly have distribution advantages.
43:57
If you want to just inject your app into one of the parent apps and get density within a community, you could do that.
44:01
But that part I think is probably solvable for a startup if you just want to pay for ads.
44:10
Getting your app into a dense friend graph is overall trivial.
44:16
As a founder, you should be able to pull it off after enough tries.
44:25
So that advantage that a big company brings, I mean it makes it easier, but it's not something that I think is something that a founder can't solve for themselves.
44:37
So an interesting takeaway it sounds like is many people feel like, "I'm going to build a social app."
44:42
They probably often hear, "Facebook's going to do that.
44:42
Instagram's going to copy you.
44:47
Snap's going to do that."
44:47
And what I'm hearing here is it's not as easy as many people think, that it might be actually a lot harder for them to try something.
44:54
It's not only harder for them to identify these opportunities and to verbalize it internally and align the company around it.
45:02
It's also hard to respond to signals in the market.
45:02
A lot of people think these incumbents are going to steal your ideas.
45:11
And for the most part, it takes a pretty long time for them to respond to even the number one app or charting in the app because it'll start charting in the app store, a PM will make a post about it.
45:24
And then the market's strategy or market research team might do a study to follow up on it.
45:32
It'll kind of float around for a few months.
45:32
They might put together a framing deck saying, "Hey, we should go after this opportunity.
45:39
Let's put together this team.
45:44
It'll go through VP reviews.
45:44
And then it'll start development.
45:44
Development might take six to 12 months."
45:50
Realistically, I think most companies, large companies take 12 to 24 months to respond to competitive threats in the market.
46:03
Do you think this is solvable?
46:03
Is there something a company can change to get better at this?
46:06
Are there companies that are good at this in your experience, or is this just as you grow, this is just what happens?
46:12
The incentives within large companies make this very difficult, because you don't want to present something that you have a hunch about being a good idea because if there's not market signals already, then it's hard to defend.
46:24
People in companies are focused on getting their yearly bonus or they're focused on their performance reviews.
46:34
It's hard to show up into a framing meeting saying like...
46:43
And a framing meeting is a meeting where you are positioning the opportunity and everything, "Here's what we should go after."
46:50
It's hard to just say, "Okay, by first principles, this is a good idea and here's some very vague market signals."
46:55
In reality, you need to walk in and say, "Here's the number one app in the United States and we don't own it."
47:06
If you present something like that, that's pretty defensible if you fail because there was market evidence.
47:14
But if you fail about something that's more based on kind of vague abstract...
47:18
So you have to, generally, the only path is to copy existing products if you want to really get momentum inside of a large organization.
47:27
And for completely new concepts, it's I think very difficult to present a lot of those ideas, either to verbalize them into a document or to even get rally the organization around it.
47:42
That's a really interesting insight.
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48:50
Before we move on to the next chapter, I want to come back to the very first thing you said where product management is not real.
48:59
Is there anything else that you can say about your insight there?
49:04
Or is it basically what you described where PMs aren't actually involved in design and a company like Facebook in your experience?
49:14
The functional organization structure of big tech has kind of separated product managers from the product development process in many ways.
49:20
They're not looking at data because data scientists are doing that.
49:25
They're just parsing some of the reports that they get back.
49:29
They're mainly just writing documents and then kind of being the team secretary and running around, getting approvals from each cross-functional team, legal privacy, everything like that.
49:41
And yeah, you're actually very much separated from the product itself.
49:41
And so I think what Snapchat has done, and I think Apple too, to the same extent, is that designers run the show.
49:56
And I think that's led to some very novel- And I think that's led to some very novel products coming out from both of those companies.
50:04
But I mean that is its own host of problems because actually rolling out a product inside of a large organization, it requires a sheer force of will because it's a lot of work.
50:12
I mean, there's a lot of regulatory scrutiny, scaling it up.
50:18
You do need someone to project manage.
50:18
And so I don't know if it's the silver bullet as to give designers the reign to run the show, but I also don't think the current traditional like Google, Facebook style of being team secretaries is also the best solution.
50:44
To defend product managers, I think many product managers spend a lot of time in design, spend a lot of time with data science.
50:49
I think probably what you saw is like the extreme big, big, big tech version of product management.
50:53
I know even PMs at Facebook can if they want to spend time with design.
50:59
I think it's just obviously very different from a startup world where you're just, that's all you're doing.
51:05
Yeah, it's certainly an exaggerated view, but it's particularly relevant I think for all the zero to one initiatives because if you're a product manager on a standalone app inside of a large, like you should be designing the hierarchy, the pixels, the flows, everything.
51:17
And then yeah, it should be cleaned up prototype by a technical designer, but that's your idea.
51:22
And products live and die in the pixels, like consumer products, so that's on you.
51:30
And that's where I think for maybe larger growth initiatives, yes, you can be a little more detached from the pixels. I love that advice.
51:43
Okay, before we move on to the next phase of your journey of starting Gas, I heard there's an interesting story around where you were actually put within the Facebook office physically, where your team was put.
51:52
Is there something there? Yeah.
51:57
When we joined the new product experimentation group, we were actually seated I think at basically the same desk as Mark Zuckerberg.
52:02
And that was pretty cool to see how the machine runs from Zuck's view.
52:10
But we had a few artifacts that we had kept with us from our old office when we were running tbh, and one of them was this kind of pop art painting that I bought on the street when I needed to get something on the walls for our office.
52:33
And it was this giant painting of Tim Cook.
52:38
We had been carrying it between our orgs at Facebook just because it was a funny painting.
52:44
And I kind of got it because it was kind of symbolic of who actually controls our destiny, is Apple.
52:49
And so when we relocated to the area where Zuck was sitting, I put up the painting on the wall and it was basically a giant painting of Tim Cook was overlooking Zuck.
52:58
And eventually one of the EAs there said, "Actually, do you think you could take that home?"
53:03
And it kind of made sense because you can't really have a painting of another big tech executive overlooking us. What does it look like?
53:20
Do you happen to have it? Yeah, I actually do. Let me go grab it. Amazing. Oh, wow. That's artistic. So that's Tim Cook.
53:26
What is the idea there that he's peeking through this darkness staring at you? Yeah, yeah.
53:36
He's the real boss of all of us.
53:41
I could see why Zuck would not want that staring at him all day. That's amazing.
53:45
And I like that you still have that with you. Yeah.
53:49
One of the artifacts of that chapter of life. So good. Okay.
53:54
So that was your Facebook journey, those four years. That's wild. You left Facebook.
54:00
At some point, you started, I remember this, you started tweeting like, "Hey, I'm working on new app." Everyone was going nuts.
54:03
"What are you working on?"
54:03
And at this point, I think you probably in your mind thought, I am this one-hit wonder, I haven't shown that I can do this again and again.
54:11
And so I think you probably have this motivation.
54:11
Maybe talk about that, just like this drive of like, hey, I want to do this again.
54:15
Is that where your mind was at?
54:19
When that meme started, my intent was to start a venture-backed company and build something that would scale to be a big team and this durable thing that lasted many years and everything.
54:35
And so I just made post that I was leaving Facebook and looking for some teammates.
54:43
And I shared a couple of ideas with some people privately and there were some really crazy ideas that I shared.
54:52
I'm not going to get into them, but then people started posting, "Oh my God, I just saw Nikita's app. It's crazy."
54:58
And what happened was others saw that and then they started memeing it and it became this massive meme where they're like, "Oh, I just tried Nikita's app, it saved my marriage.
55:13
Oh, I just quit drinking.
55:13
My kids returned home after all these like," and it turned into this massive meme.
55:20
And at the time, I didn't even have an app or anything.
55:26
I wasn't even planning to launch it.
55:26
It wasn't even an app, some of the ideas I was looking at.
55:32
And so it just turned into this viral moment.
55:32
I wasn't even committed to starting another company at that point.
55:44
This was an exploration process.
55:44
But what happened was the market had crashed shortly thereafter, there was kind of the end of the Zerb era.
55:54
The Fed started hiking rates.
55:54
I think my portfolio was down like 30% or something and I was like, "Damn, this sucks.
56:01
Maybe I should think about how to make money today."
56:08
That's the reason we're in startups is to make money.
56:08
And so there was always in the back of my head this question that I had, which was what if we had monetized tbh?
56:23
Because the number one support message we received was can I pay to reveal who sent me polls?
56:31
It was the number one question.
56:31
And it was like, would it have made even more than the acquisition if we just monetized it?
56:40
And I'm like, we could probably build this pretty fast, like probably in a month, month or two.
56:47
Ended up being a lot longer, but we started rebuilding it. It was a new team.
56:54
It was one of the engineers from a company called Paparazzi.
56:54
His name's Zay Turner, and he started building it in my house and we had tested it to see would this new version of tbh actually resonate with kids five years later?
57:14
That was actually the thing I wanted to know most of all was like would an anonymous polling app actually still be relevant five years later?
57:28
And so we dropped it into the school just the same way I've always done it in- Was it the Georgia School again? Yes, actually.
57:38
We launched at the exact same school that we launched tbh on the exact same day five years later, in fact.
57:47
And people sent a lot of messages, but it wasn't growing.
57:47
So let me pedal back here a bit.
57:59
So tbh grew through variety of things, people sharing their messages to Snapchat and text invites, and that was 2017.
58:09
And the way you invited your friends on tbh was that you tap their name, your contact name, and there was a button that said Invite and then we used Twilio to send them a text message.
58:24
And the regulatory environment actually had changed a lot over those five years.
58:30
You really can't send texts from a server anymore.
58:30
It has to be sent from the user's device.
58:37
And just the point of clarification is a lot of people clone tbh over the years and they think that when you voted on people in the polls, it sent them a text. We never did that.
58:47
That's egregiously illegal to do and also unethical at a user experience level to send texts when people don't even know what's happening.
58:53
But anyway, we couldn't send texts over Twilio anymore, and that led to people not sending as many invites when we created Gas because they had to pop the Compose window and hit Send.
59:08
They're going to just tap Invite on five names.
59:15
So we actually had to reinvent all the growth systems and it took about I think like nine launches including renaming the app, including features that just never existed on tbh.
59:22
So it was actually just in many ways like yeah, the concept on the surface was the same, but it was very much a zero to one development cycle of figuring out how to grow this thing again in this climate.
59:47
I know that point is really important to you.
59:47
I think a lot of people are like Nikita just sold the same app twice. What a guy.
59:49
And the point you're making here is not only was the infrastructure completely different, the team was different, you had to rethink the entire flywheel of how it worked and how it grew. Yeah.
1:00:05
And there were so many layers of like we validated one thing and then the next thing we got stuck on.
1:00:12
Like, okay, people send a lot of messages. Cool, great.
1:00:12
The next thing was will it spread within a school?
1:00:21
That took us a while to get right. Will it hop schools?
1:00:21
Each of those was a very, very challenging problem in light of the new climate that we were operating in.
1:00:28
And I always do things by the book when it comes to operating legally within the compliance framework.
1:00:45
And that's something when I meet founders and they tell me some growth thing that they're doing, and I'm like, "You can't do that.
1:00:49
That's going to cause way more trouble down the line.
1:00:56
It's going to burn users too."
1:00:56
And so we always wanted to make it abundantly clear how our growth system, how you are inviting friends and all that.
1:01:02
You can kind of go on a whole diatribe on that because the thing that I see a lot of founders do is they in the background use user data in ways that it shouldn't be used.
1:01:13
They invite people on your behalf and all that.
1:01:21
And I have this kind of crazy view that the internet is this living and breathing thing.
1:01:28
There's Wikipedia article called the Gaia Hypothesis, which is about biology.
1:01:28
And it's basically like the earth is kind of living and breathing and can respond to threats. Okay?
1:01:35
And when you enter the rainforest too deep, Ebola virus will be released. Okay?
1:01:41
So I think the internet operates on a similar paradigm here where if you do the wrong thing by users, the internet will come back and get even and defend itself.
1:01:55
And so whenever I design products, I try to do right by users because it'll always come back much worse and I think you should always operate above board with how you design your growth systems.
1:02:08
And with Gas, we had to do things the right way and we had to figure out at each particular moment or problem that we solve, will it spread within schools? Will it hop schools? Will people pay for it?
1:02:27
All of these things was a whole reinvention of the original product.
1:02:35
I love that you shared that because I think a lot of people see you from the outside and they think you're doing all kinds of these skeezy growth hacks and making teens do things that aren't really mentally healthy for them.
1:02:44
But it's clear that that's the opposite of how you think about it, that you're trying to stay very positive, like you only allow positive communication.
1:02:51
You do things that as you just said, are going to be good long-term, the internet's not going to come and try to shut you down.
1:03:00
The point you bring up here about wanting to build a positive thing, some people, sometimes I get criticism.
1:03:10
It's not actually that often, but they say, "Oh, you're building an app that makes teens feeling insecure or anything."
1:03:14
But with Gas, I think we received a message every single day from a user telling us that they reconsidered suicide or other forms of self-harm.
1:03:21
The app sent you positive messages and affirmations.
1:03:29
It made teens feel really good.
1:03:29
And I think that is lost on a lot of people.
1:03:36
Instagram can make you feel jealousy and a lot of other social networks are a mixed bag in terms of impact.
1:03:42
But we were entirely focused on making teens feel better.
1:03:49
And some people might say, "Oh, what if someone doesn't get voted for something?"
1:03:52
We actually built a system to ensure everyone got a vote.
1:03:52
And what we did was we put your name in polls at a higher frequency if you weren't being voted on recently.
1:03:59
So we wanted to spread the love in every way possible, and that's what really motivated me to grow this thing was watching how it was impacting 10 million kids in such a short period of time.
1:04:20
I really appreciate you adding that.
1:04:20
I didn't know all those things about the way you thought about these apps.
1:04:23
Interestingly, I don't know how much you can go into this, but there is a lot of stuff going on with Gas around human trafficking and all this stuff where people thought people were being kidnapped through Gas, which is yeah, talk about that whatever you can because that's pretty crazy.
1:04:41
We had this hoax started where people were saying the app was used for human trafficking.
1:04:48
And I was like, "This is so strange."
1:04:48
This is a anonymous polling app without messaging and the only thing you could do is send compliments to your friends.
1:04:57
And I researched into it and I saw that this is actually plaguing a lot of apps and any app that has gone viral in any way has actually had this hoax started.
1:05:10
And part of the reason it happens is it gets you attention if you say that about an app.
1:05:15
As a teenager, if you say, "Oh, this app is dangerous," and then you get a bunch of followers and who doesn't love followers?
1:05:26
So it's actually a really viral piece of content if you put it out.
1:05:26
And so we had this hoax started and we were like, "This could kill the company."
1:05:31
And I talked to a bunch of founders that it happened to them and they said, "Yeah, we had to shut down because of that." Wow.
1:05:40
And I was like, "Is this it?
1:05:40
Is this the end of the company?"
1:05:40
And I remember it hit number one when we started getting a few of these reports in our support channels.
1:05:51
And I was like, "I'm just going to plant the flag on posts that we hit number one in the App Store because this thing's probably going to shut down soon."
1:06:03
So I make this announcement on Twitter, "I just made the number one app and I thought it would just be dead in a week."
1:06:07
And then I just had this sudden burst of energy and I was like, "I'm going to win. I'm going to fight this. This is not true.
1:06:18
It makes no sense at all."
1:06:18
And so we fought it at every vector possible, this completely made up hoax.
1:06:25
We met with journalists, reporters to make sure that the number one match every time you search Gas app human trafficking was Gas app is not for human trafficking.
1:06:37
And so that ended up being The Washington Post headline.
1:06:37
We insisted that that be the headline if we do the interview.
1:06:42
So that was the first thing that showed up on Google anytime someone searched it.
1:06:46
There were schools and even a police station that posted that this app is used for human trafficking.
1:06:52
I called those superintendents, I called those police chiefs and have got them to publicly retract it.
1:06:57
And we had some of the reviews on the App Store.
1:06:57
We asked Apple to remove them because we got review bombed.
1:07:04
But the thing that actually was the most impactful was my girlfriend made a video, a TikTok video explaining that it's not true.
1:07:09
And anytime someone deleted their account, they could watch this video explaining it's not true.
1:07:16
And at the peak, we had 3% of users deleting their accounts per day.
1:07:22
So it was like a catastrophe for an app and we got it down to 0.
1:07:30
1% through relentless, relentless effort.
1:07:30
And it was really just an unusual thing that happens when you grow really fast is this human trafficking hoax that starts.
1:07:48
And you don't understand how crazy it is until it happens to your company, but it was kind of hilarious to think about.
1:07:55
This app was the most harmless benign thing you could think of. This is insane.
1:08:01
I did not know this full story.
1:08:01
And you were doing all this while you were trying to scale the app and trying to keep the servers up and try to grow it, right?
1:08:09
What was that like to try to manage all these things at once?
1:08:12
I was sleeping three hours a day for three months.
1:08:12
It was extraordinarily difficult to do it all.
1:08:20
Our team was also relentless though.
1:08:20
They would come over to my house 9:00 a. m.
1:08:20
stay until midnight and just do that seven days a week.
1:08:27
So yeah, it was definitely one of the most physically draining things ever, but we were just so tactical.
1:08:35
I remember investors were asking to meet with us and I said, "If you can't get a celebrity to post that this isn't true, then we're not interested."
1:08:51
But yeah, we went after it on every vector and it ended up being okay.
1:08:59
I love how you took your brain to this other completely different problem and thought about all the levers you could use to change the conversation around the app. Yeah.
1:09:09
I remember we had these TikTok videos that were made that were saying it was true and I networked my way all the way to the CEO of TikTok and I said, "Can you delete these?"
1:09:22
And we got this information deleted.
1:09:22
Yeah, so it was really a whole new test of our team's capacities was fighting.
1:09:31
The key thing that you have to know though when you have a hoax spreading about your app is you really have to make sure the hoax is less viral than your app.
1:09:41
And at a few points, the hoax was more viral than our app and we had to take this- The K-factor of the hoax. Yeah. That's absurd. Okay.
1:09:51
So broadly, you built this app. Again, a big success.
1:09:51
I saw a stat that you made $11 million in sales through the app, 10 million downloads. Is that right? Yeah.
1:10:03
It was a blowout success in terms of like it grew bigger than tbh. We monetized it.
1:10:11
We ran almost entirely on startup credits, so it was basically- Like Cloud Credits? Like AWS Credits? Yeah. AWS Credits, Mixpanel.
1:10:19
I remember when I saw the early data, I'm like, "Okay, now it's time for me to negotiate every bill down to the last cent of margin for every vendor."
1:10:27
And I got credits everywhere, and so we really were tactical with that.
1:10:34
And so we ended up being all just pure cashflow for the team. We had no investors.
1:10:41
And it was just so interesting though that the way that I started posting about it on Twitter was it kind of captured the zeitgeist of the internet.
1:10:50
And we didn't intend on selling it.
1:10:58
We were just going to let this thing run its course and just be this app that kind of lives in the background of our lives.
1:11:02
But once it started capturing the zeitgeist of Twitter, I was like, "Wait a minute, we could probably sell this thing."
1:11:09
And that's when we started engaging with some of these, we ended up getting three companies that wanted to buy it.
1:11:20
I won't be able to say them, but ultimately we ended up selling to Discord and we joined Discord. Awesome.
1:11:29
So before we move on to the next part of the journey and some of the other insights that I want to get into, is there any lasting lessons that you took away from Gas as a product that you take with you to advising startups in terms of building the product design?
1:11:41
I know there's many, but any that stand out most that you think are really interesting to share?
1:11:50
I think I kind of touched on this before, which was trying to validate things in a sequence of like, will people use the core flow?
1:11:55
Will people spread it within their peer group? Will it hop peer groups?
1:12:00
And what I think the most important thing that I learned is that's actually a really great way to do zero to one product development is execute at 100% for the thing you're trying to validate at that specific stage of the product development cycle.
1:12:13
And then you can kind of half-ass the rest just so you can get 100% signal on that one part.
1:12:25
And so we made the polling experience just perfect.
1:12:25
The questions were great.
1:12:30
Push notifications, everything worked.
1:12:30
And then the next stage was getting sharing and virality working.
1:12:34
And so compartmentalizing those things because ultimately you'll have too much scope creep if you try to solve everything at once and validate.
1:12:40
And also you're not going to get signal too, like you're trying to test one thing at a time.
1:12:43
So the way that now I approach a lot of consumer product development is if this is true, then what next needs to be true for this thing to work out?
1:12:52
And these layers of conditional statements.
1:12:56
And the more layers you have, the higher risk your product is, so you should try to condense it to about like four things that must be true for the thing to work.
1:13:06
And this comes back to your advice of the thing you need to get good at is testing and learning and making it really quick. Yeah. Okay.
1:13:13
Maybe one last thing along this thread.
1:13:13
I'm just really curious how this hoax came to be, like who's behind it? How does this happen?
1:13:20
We got a original support message, which was a screenshot of a story on Snapchat and it said, "Do not download the Gas app.
1:13:30
It's for human trafficking." Okay?
1:13:30
And it was a screenshot that had like that mirror effect where you have like 10 people that screenshotted it.
1:13:37
More, like 40 people because it had all the usernames.
1:13:44
So I was looking at this and I'm like, "How many people have seen this?"
1:13:52
And it looked like a viral thing on Snapchat.
1:13:52
And then I went to the App Store page and I saw a review that said this app is for human trafficking.
1:13:58
And I went to my team and I said, "This will probably kill the company.
1:14:08
This will kill the product.
1:14:08
I've seen this before with consumer apps and it's evident to me this is going to be 10 times bigger tomorrow." And they were like, "No. It's just one message. What do you mean?"
1:14:25
I'm like, "No, no, it's been screenshotted 40 times and now it's on the App Store page."
1:14:29
And we got another message four hours later.
1:14:35
And the next day, it was our entire App Store page was just covered with reviews saying that the app's for human trafficking.
1:14:42
And we actually had to rebrand the app.
1:14:42
We relaunched it once and we're like, "Let's just call it something different.
1:14:48
Just relaunch it on the other side of the country."
1:14:56
We did that, started going viral again. And the craziest- ... again.
1:15:03
And the craziest thing was it re-emerged and what happened was one user was friends with another person in another state and they got an invitation.
1:15:11
And that user told them, "Oh, that was in my state.
1:15:17
It's actually for human trafficking."
1:15:17
And then it just completely started again and then it was too late at that point to relaunch again.
1:15:26
We just realized, " We got to fight this thing."
1:15:26
And ultimately, I don't think we'll ever know the true origin, but it was definitely a living, breathing like hoax. That is insane.
1:15:46
The story just gets more and more interesting.
1:15:46
What were some of the previous names, by the way?
1:15:50
Is that something you can share?
1:15:52
Yeah, we went through a bunch.
1:15:52
One of them was called Crush, one of them was called Melt, and another was...
1:15:59
The interesting thing about Crush is we got a great domain.
1:15:59
We thought this would be the name.
1:16:04
This was between some of the re-brands.
1:16:04
We tested it and we saw that invitations dropped significantly under the Crush name and we were like, "What's going on here?"
1:16:16
And we found that actually when you invite someone to an app, regardless of the app, you generally...
1:16:21
Boys invite boys, girls invite girls to apps.
1:16:21
And boys didn't want to invite their friends to an app called Crush with a pink icon.
1:16:35
And then we looked at the data and the app.
1:16:35
I mean this was true TBH too, which was the app indexed about 60 to 65% women.
1:16:39
So we were just like, "Let's make the app more masculine and see what happens.
1:16:46
We need balance on this."
1:16:46
So we made the icon black with a flame, called it Gas and the invites rate jumped.
1:16:51
And you think a name doesn't matter, but right at the moment of sending an invite...
1:16:59
So that was one of the interesting insights on the naming process.
1:17:07
Man, there's just endless stories that we could keep getting into, but we've also gone very long, so I'm going to try to move on to another topic.
1:17:11
So I ask people on Twitter what to ask you?
1:17:16
Just that question got a thousand likes just me asking, "What should I ask Nikita?"
1:17:21
And the most common question, I'm sure you get this a lot, is just people wondering, do you ever want to build a durable consumer app?
1:17:25
Is it possible to build a durable consumer app?
1:17:30
Scott Belsky asked this, Robert at Figma asked this, and Scott actually had a really nice way of describing it about why are so many quick sensation consumer apps proving to be more akin to summer songs than enduring standalone products and businesses?
1:17:41
So there's kind of two questions here.
1:17:46
One is, do you aim to build a durable consumer app?
1:17:46
And two, how possible is it?
1:17:54
A lot of the fundamental tools for communicating with our friends either messaging or broadcasting one-to-many like on stories or the incumbents have built pretty large motes in terms of network effects and to provide true an order of magnitude better experience is non-trivial because they've been actually improving these products so much over the years and there's not that many entry points.
1:18:26
Not to say that it's not impossible.
1:18:26
Snapchat was showed that there was style of messaging that people wanted that the incumbents weren't serving.
1:18:40
But I think there's these kind of edges that you can go after with a much higher probability of success and they might not actually be something that's durable necessarily.
1:18:45
And I think finding durability for a communication or social product, that's a black swan event.
1:19:00
Retention for consumer social is there's a tremendous amount of randomness.
1:19:00
There's one every decade.
1:19:08
If it was simple, I would just be printing $1 trillion companies.
1:19:15
I be printing Facebook's every time I sat down.
1:19:15
But I think it's actually a lot of it is pure randomness.
1:19:21
On the other hand, growing a product can be a science.
1:19:21
With certainty, if you're good at your job, you can make an app grow and go viral.
1:19:28
Now why haven't I tried to take the viral part and build something that has been durable or long-lasting?
1:19:35
I'll tell you a little bit about my motivations.
1:19:42
My favorite part about product development is you make this thing through the night.
1:19:47
You build it and you watch it take over the internet.
1:19:54
That is the most thrilling drug I think you could ever experience.
1:19:54
And just watching it spread all over the country is like you drop an app in the deep south in Georgia and then you look on your analytics dashboard and 40% of the high school down your street in Los Angeles has downloaded it one week later.
1:20:17
That's a really profound feeling.
1:20:17
It's crazy to have that sort of impact as a three-person team, and I live for that.
1:20:23
When I joined Facebook, here's an interesting connection.
1:20:31
So I joined Facebook and I saw that many of my peers were looking up to VPs and they're like, "That's what I want to make it to one day.
1:20:37
I want to run a large organization.
1:20:37
I want to have lots of reports."
1:20:42
And then I met with VPs and they were actually jealous of me because my quality of life was actually pretty cool.
1:20:50
I got to build something high impact that made many teens feel better about themselves, made a decent amount of money.
1:20:58
And then I wasn't in charge of this becoming a people manager that has to run this large organization for many years.
1:21:11
I think one day I will run maybe a venture scale business, but I will say that I kind of like the way that I've been doing things so far in terms of quality of life and being fun.
1:21:21
Financially, it's been great.
1:21:27
So I think that part is what motivates me.
1:21:27
And yeah, I don't think running a large corporation is necessarily what I described as fun. That's amazing, man.
1:21:40
I am really happy we went here.
1:21:40
So much of this resonates with the way I think.
1:21:45
And obviously, a big part of this is also just it's very hard, as you said, to build a consumer app that grows first of all.
1:21:50
Second, that actually lasts.
1:21:50
But that is interesting that you do hope to one day build a venture funded business.
1:22:03
I mean TBH was venture backed, but I just don't...
1:22:03
I think I'm going to have to...
1:22:10
Do I want to sign up for 10 years?
1:22:10
And if you actually look at some of the numbers on the actual proceeds that some of these founders get after an IPO, after seven rounds of dilution, a lot of them are pretty comparable to what we get from our apps for 90 days of work.
1:22:26
So yeah, the trade-offs there are pretty faithful.
1:22:36
Actually, just on that note, so what would make you actually decide to go venture funded?
1:22:38
You talked about how if you're going more mainstream, non-teens folks after 22 years old, is that why you would go that route?
1:22:47
I don't think that it's necessarily that part.
1:22:47
I think if I could keep the team lean and scale up...
1:22:59
I think there's some actual founders that actually operate very lean teams and have reached very large scale in terms of the valuations of the company.
1:23:07
Actually the most iconic example is Elon Musk.
1:23:13
His teams are actually pretty thin overall and he's in the weeds doing product development.
1:23:18
And so I think, yeah, if I was to ever do it, I would do it under very specific set of operating principles versus turning it into a big tech company.
1:23:33
Queue investor is emailing you right now with term sheets. Okay.
1:23:33
Nikita, this has been amazing.
1:23:39
There's one last segment I want to spend a little time on, which is just kind of a rapid fire of pieces of advice you've shared that I think is incredibly insightful about how to build a successful consumer app.
1:23:49
And so I'm thinking I'll just go through three to five and see what you think and see what you can add to the advice. How does that sound? Sounds great. Okay, cool.
1:24:00
So the first is just contact permissions in iOS 18 changes the game and how people can grow apps basically makes it harder to invite your friends.
1:24:09
Thoughts on how people should be thinking about this in their products.
1:24:15
When I first saw it, I was really concerned.
1:24:18
I saw your tweet about it.
1:24:18
You're like, "That's the end. Game over."
1:24:23
Just let me frame things up for you.
1:24:23
The contact permissions screen, you average about 65% approval rate across all apps.
1:24:27
It's higher for teens, lower for adults, but if you have a 65% consenting to contacts access, then the next step on this new iOS 18 change is you select which contacts you want to allow the app to access.
1:24:43
And it's an alphabetical list.
1:24:49
And that alphabetical list for me, I have 550 contacts or something.
1:24:55
The first 10 contacts are punctuation symbols from whatever dirty entry I put when I was driving or something.
1:25:02
So you have to scroll down and find that name. So I have to find Lenny. I have to add you.
1:25:07
And what if you're not an app user?
1:25:07
So I just added you or three others.
1:25:16
Assuming users are willing to even do that.
1:25:16
You and then the three others never sign up, but maybe three of your friends do.
1:25:22
But I never get connected to them because there's no over...
1:25:25
So my expectation is it's going to be very difficult to find friends on apps going forward to invite friends on apps going forward.
1:25:35
And that founders will need to rethink how they do it.
1:25:40
And of the companies, I'm working with on intro, we are looking at ways to reinvent what contact sync is or what purpose it served.
1:25:49
It's not promising, but we have some good leads and I think we'll have a whole new set of apps emerging as a consequence.
1:26:06
But if you're betting on contact sync as a company right now, you better start thinking about plan B.
1:26:14
So what I take away here is just it is now much different and there's an opportunity to think of something really clever that would give you a huge advantage if you can crack it.
1:26:23
Yes, but most likely I think most apps will not have social graphs going forward and this will entrench incumbents even more.
1:26:29
I don't think Apple acknowledged that.
1:26:29
I think the person that designed the feature probably has never built an app or done contact sync before because the flow is egregiously bad and it doesn't actually even, I think, benefit the user's privacy because it just completely eliminates the feature altogether. Okay, next topic.
1:26:53
So you helped this product called Dupe succeed.
1:26:53
It's doing incredibly well from what I can see.
1:26:59
And I saw you tweet about one of the key things that you helped them through, which is to invert, I'm reading this quote, "Inverting the time to value so that the user experience is the aha moment in seconds."
1:27:07
Talk about that insight and how important that is to building a successful consumer social app.
1:27:17
This kind of concept of getting users to the aha moment is something I recurringly bring up to every company I work with.
1:27:22
And you have to understand that in 2024, people's attention spans are like three seconds.
1:27:30
It's really sad, but we are spread thin through so many notifications, products, everything that if you can't demonstrate value in the first three seconds, it's over.
1:27:42
And this also leads back to the contact sync question that you talked about was you have to sign up and then the first night you have to see all of your friends on the app and experience it, otherwise you'll churn.
1:27:52
So this idea of inverting the value, when I was working with Dupe, they had this kind of shopping app that had a bunch of different features and there was one feature that I saw that was interesting called Deal Hop and it allowed you to just put in a product page and it would find the cheapest version of it online.
1:28:08
Something I already do through a bunch of duct taped methods of Google image search, Google Lens.
1:28:16
And I was like, "That should be a whole company.
1:28:24
But how are we going to teach users to do it and how do we expose them to that aha moment as fast as possible in a memorable iconic way?"
1:28:38
I had this product I built a while back where you just type the domain in front of an existing URL.
1:28:43
So I told them, "You should try this.
1:28:43
It's very marketable, but you need to get a very short domain that matches what you're doing."
1:28:51
And so he went out and bought Dupe.
1:28:51
com for I don't know how much, but when he bought that I was pretty excited.
1:28:55
I'm like, well, if this doesn't work, I'm going to feel terrible, but if it does work, it's going to be a blowout success.
1:29:05
So we put out a couple videos about it and then it was iconic, went viral, the videos.
1:29:05
Users remembered to do it, to type dupe. com in front of a URL.
1:29:12
Now I think they're making millions in ARR in a matter, and I think under 60 days of launching.
1:29:19
And that was a blowout success.
1:29:19
And of the companies I work with, I would say it happens about 50% of the time we hit that much success, but we hit success.
1:29:35
I think 50% of the time it's outright failure because consumer is so random.
1:29:41
And so what I'm hearing is a big insight is just ideally get to three seconds time to value. Is that the advice? Yeah. Sounds great. Easy peasy. Yeah.
1:29:55
You really have to craft onboarding everything to ensure that that's where the design part comes in of being a great product person.
1:30:11
I imagine a big part of this is just cutting things you think...
1:30:11
Like killing your darlings, cutting things you think people need and just being really ruthless with that,.
1:30:20
Really ruthless, but also being extraordinarily creative with how you use the tools available to activate a user.
1:30:30
I think extraordinary product people are deeply aware of every possible API and how it can be used in non-traditional ways.
1:30:38
Like this URL trick was something that I think was non-traditional that people adopted very quickly.
1:30:45
I have a whole laundry list of iOS mechanisms that people use for a certain way today, but you could invert them.
1:30:59
Contact sync is a great example because you sync your contacts and then it finds all the friends and then ranks the people who are not on the app yet but have a bunch of friends on it.
1:31:07
So there's a bunch of ways that you can one tap, expose a ton of value to users that I think founders often neglect.
1:31:17
A lot of founders will go and say, "Oh, they can just exchange usernames and that's how they can add each other."
1:31:24
That is the most unrealistic thing ever because that means you have to see the username, type it into the app.
1:31:29
You have to do that what 50 times to get a 50-person friend list.
1:31:35
So we're looking at 10,000 taps versus one.
1:31:35
So that's what I mean by trying to get people to the activation moment, the aha moment and get them to value. I love that advice.
1:31:52
So maybe as just a last question along these lines.
1:31:52
When you come to a founder, a relationship that you're a startup, you're trying to help, is there one more thing that you find often ends up being really helpful to them?
1:32:04
Any common piece of advice that's like, "Oh, this is probably what's going to help you."
1:32:09
You talked about this aha moment step, the contact sharing stuff.
1:32:13
I guess is there anything else that's just like this is something that's probably going to help you with your app?
1:32:20
Right now, I think I advise around 35, 36 companies and all of them are at different stages of challenges they're facing.
1:32:28
Some of them are pure at the product concept stage.
1:32:36
Some of them are venture backed billion-dollar companies and each of them faces different problems.
1:32:44
The first thing I often do is I ask them to show me the analytics.
1:32:44
We look at how people are distributing the app today, what is the milestone that a user must hit to become activated and what's getting in the way of that?
1:32:59
I also take a very deep look at every funnel that users come through.
1:33:07
And I think a lot of founders separate marketing and product growth, like top of funnel growth from the actual products growth mechanisms, but they're both the same.
1:33:24
They both should be treated as the same.
1:33:24
If you're targeting a community and you want them to all adopt and get saturation, you need to build marketing that shows imagery of that community or whatever.
1:33:40
And then when you get in the app, you have to be able to join that community.
1:33:45
When you invite people from that app, that community needs to be mentioned.
1:33:50
You need to actually cover everything from the ads to the in-app experience.
1:33:57
All of that needs to be aligned for a user acquisition and flywheel to spin.
1:33:57
A lot of people really screw that up.
1:34:03
That's my initial rough approximation of what I do when I come in and try to fix or try to help with some of the challenges these companies are facing.
1:34:15
So this is actually a great segue to the final thing I want to make sure people understand is you help companies through this.
1:34:19
Talk about how you work with companies where they can find you, what kind of companies you're looking to work with and how all that works.
1:34:29
So I work across the gamut.
1:34:29
Most of them are consumer mobile companies and there certainly are web ones too, but I work with companies across stages.
1:34:36
Typically, I recommend that you don't book me unless you're venture backed because it's a little expensive.
1:34:42
But my main goal when someone does seek my advice through intro is I try to make them 10 times back their money in the first 30 days.
1:34:58
And so far I think I've managed to do that with anyone who's met with me.
1:35:03
And that means get all the table stakes, grow things out of the way, at the minimum.
1:35:11
Then identify two to three step function changes that could change their growth trajectory.
1:35:11
And these are higher scope fundamental changes to the product.
1:35:18
So I try to couple both, explain to them which direction I believe they should go, and it's a conversation and we talk about it.
1:35:28
And then once they settle on a direction, I tend to get in the pixels.
1:35:28
I go into Figma and we do a live session together and clean things up.
1:35:36
I identify, "Oh, that's going to convert at this percent."
1:35:41
And then I just manage all that.
1:35:41
But yeah, it's generally post-series A.
1:35:48
Some seed stage companies, and it's been really fun.
1:35:48
It's kept my mind sharp on where the market is headed.
1:35:59
I've also, over the years of building all these apps, I've accrued all these growth hacks that still nobody knows about.
1:36:04
And so I share those when it's relevant for the company and it's been great. Dupe was one of them. I was advising Saturn.
1:36:11
I rebuilt their Friend Finder.
1:36:17
I think believe they're number one in the productivity section above ChatGPT as of today.
1:36:24
But I think I've generally invested in about maybe 10% of the companies that seek out my advice. Amazing.
1:36:31
Well, I know it feels expensive to some people, but if I were a company with cash, it feels like the best deal I could find someone like you to come in and actually help me think through deeply in the pixels how to make my thing work.
1:36:43
So I think you're still undercharging and I hope you keep raising your prices because clearly there's a lot of demand.
1:36:48
Nikita, this was incredible.
1:36:52
I feel like people see you on Twitter and they're like, "Oh, this guy, he's such a jerk sometimes."
1:36:55
But meeting you in person and talking to you, it's very clear.
1:37:00
You're really a kind dude, really thoughtful.
1:37:00
All your advice is based on real things you have done.
1:37:06
It's not just you sitting around pontificating and I think that's incredibly valuable and I'm excited.
1:37:10
People are tapping that knowledge and you're sharing it with people in a wider scale. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
1:37:15
We covered a lot and there's plenty more.
1:37:19
I hope to come back after the next viral hit. Oh man.
1:37:26
So I was going to ask you, is there anything you're working on now or stages, what can you share? [inaudible 01:37:33]. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Here we go. Amazing.
1:37:33
I always ask people how can listeners be useful to you?
1:37:37
So let me just ask you that as a final question, how can listeners be useful to you?
1:37:41
Follow me on Twitter and enjoy my shit posts.
1:37:41
And I hope you have as much fun as me on Twitter. I do, man. I love your tweets.
1:37:48
Nikita, thank you so much for doing this and for being here. Yeah, thanks a lot. Bye, everyone.
1:37:55
Thank you so much for listening.
1:37:55
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1:38:01
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
1:38:07
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast. com.
1:38:12
See you in the next episode.