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About 11 years ago, we were in Haiti and I was introduced to a little girl who was 13.
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She spent 3 to 4 hours every day collecting water.
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So, I say to this kid, I'm like, "Well, hey, you know, I kind of joke and say, now you have more time for homework."
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And she looks at me totally seriously and she's like, "I don't need more time to do homework.
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I'm the smartest kid in my class." And I said, "All right.
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Well, so what are you going to do with all this time that you just you found that you know, your your new found 4 hours a day?"
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And she looked at me and she goes, "I'm going to play."
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow.
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Now, I know that our community at On Purpose, all of you are activists.
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Our community is dedicated to making positive change in the world.
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I know that all of you have got behind so many causes that we've prioritized and given a platform to on this podcast.
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And this is one of those episodes.
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you've been looking and waiting to do something positive in the world, to feel like you're a part of the solution, then I want you to listen to this episode.
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I want you to share it with all your friends and family that are of the same energy and spirit, because this one's going to make a huge difference.
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Today, I'm speaking to two incredible guests, Gary White and Matt Damon, who are co-founders of water. org and water equity.
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While everyone knows Matt as an actor and producer and screenwriter, in 2006, he founded H2O Africa Foundation to raise awareness about water initiatives on the continent.
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Matt's active participation in the work of water.
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org and water equity has positioned him as one of the world's experts on water and sanitation issues.
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Now, in 1991, Gary launched Water Partners, now the international NGO known as water. org.
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Today, he leads two organizations in creating and executing market-driven solutions to the global water crisis, driving innovations in the way water and sanitation projects are delivered and financed.
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Welcome to On Purpose, Matt Damon and Gary White.
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Matt and Gary, thank you so much for being here, and I know today we're talking about your book, The Worth of Water, Our Story of Chasing Solutions to the World's Greatest Challenge.
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I highly recommend everyone goes and grabs a copy of the book while you're listening or watching, uh but we will be diving into that and discussing it.
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Gary and Matt, thank you for being here. It's so good to see you. Good to see you.
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Thank you for sharing your incredible platform with us, too. This is really awesome. We appreciate it. For sure. Thanks, Jay.
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No, thank you for doing the work.
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Uh you know, I I spent 3 years living as a monk in India after business school, and a lot of the work we did was around building sustainable villages, and a big part of that was making sure that clean water reached those places.
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So, I have a personal affinity to the work that you're doing, and so when this came across my desk, I was I was, to be honest, just super enthusiastic and excited to talk about it.
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I'd love to start off from both of you, uh individually telling me about what is the water crisis and water issue right now for those who are unaware or those that have kind of seen it, but kind of think, "Oh, yeah, like isn't aren't there a lot of people dealing with that?"
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And, you know, it's kind of been talked about for a while.
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I'd love to hear from both of your perspectives personally as to what you believe the issue is right now. Mhm.
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Well, if I can go ahead and jump in, if that's all right.
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Uh it's it's so complex, it's kind of hard to distill it, but I'll give it a shot.
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I think that the the for us, we tend to think of the water crisis as something that's looming.
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looming. We know that, uh you know, with climate change, water resources are getting more scarce, and that is a looming crisis and it is important we should be focused on that but for 771 million people around the world today the crisis is already upon them right they're the ones that when they woke up this morning they didn't
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necessarily know where they were going to get water for the day they didn't know how much time they were going to have to spend walking to collect that water or sometimes they have to buy it from these these urban slum vendors who sell it for prices that are 10 to 15 times more than what they would pay if they had a water connection. So to them the water crisis
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connection. So to them the water crisis is a daily struggle to make sure that they have enough water in order to kind of live the day and then when you're struggling day-to-day like that that water crisis becomes like a family health crisis it becomes an education crisis it becomes you know lack of
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employment crisis because your focus so much on getting water paying for water that you're not in school you're not healthy and so it is basically something that's right now robbing hundreds of millions of people of their futures because until you have water nothing else matters. Thank you for that Gary I I really
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Thank you for that Gary I I really appreciate that and the main thing that I'm hearing there is just we think of people just not having water to drink and then it's almost like well wait a minute let's think about the act of getting water and what that time
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from I eat their economic space their home space their family the cooking the the feeding that you know everything that it expands out to so thank you for that Matt I want to extend the same question to you as well I'd love to hear about for you personally what what you see is the issue. So well I think Gary just did a pretty
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So well I think Gary just did a pretty good summary there but to follow on to that I would just say that the effect of of that right leaving aside the the needless disease and death, right, that occurs when you don't have access to clean water and sanitation, um you know, cuz we're losing a million children under the age of five, you know, to every year to completely preventable illness, right?
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And and and so that's its own tragedy, right?
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But but when you look at the other effects of not having access, namely, uh you know, because this disproportionately affects women and girls, uh so many girls aren't in school because they they have to, for the sake of the survival of their families, be out looking for water every day.
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And so and so you can imagine what that does to the to the outcomes of their of their lives and to their potential.
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So it's not only this this needless disease and suffering, it's it's also robbing people of their potential in ways that are really incalculable.
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Um and that was the very first water collection I went on.
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Um this is 15 16 years ago.
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And I I was in Zambia in this really rural village and and I was it had been arranged for me to meet this girl when she got home from school and we walked together to this well and and and I talked to her which was about a mile away.
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And in the course of our conversation, I I said you know, I said, "Are you going to live here for the rest of your life?
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Is this where you want to live?"
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And she got really shy and she goes, "No, no, I don't want to live here.
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I want to go to the big city."
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We're in this really rural area and she goes, "I'm going to go to Lusaka. I want to be a nurse." Right?
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And and I totally disconnected to her cuz I I remembered being 14 and I was going to go to the big city with Ben Affleck and we were going to be actors.
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We were going to New York and and uh and that's like what a 14-year-old should be thinking about, right?
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They should be dreaming about their futures and and the possibility that awaited them.
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And it wasn't until I got in the car and was driving away that I realized had it not been for the foresight of someone to sink a borewell a mile from this kid's house, she wouldn't have been in school.
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You know, she wouldn't she wouldn't dream of someday being a nurse and and contributing to the economic engine of her country and and and and helping people, you know, being a health front line health care worker.
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You know, all the things that and and living her dream really, right?
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And so and so that was kind of a an epiphany for me and and and and just the far-reaching effect of lack of access because I really found that it underpinned everything.
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It undergirds every issue of extreme poverty.
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It touches all of them and so the the fact that nobody was really talking about it um and and it was this vastly interesting and complex thing, massive problem uh that that was that was what first got me really interested.
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Yeah, that that that's beautiful.
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Thank you so much for sharing that and I think there was a line in the book that really struck me and you said that for that girl water was life and it was also a shot at a better life.
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And and when you make that comparison of what you were thinking about at 14, what she's thinking about at 14, now I'm thinking about what I was thinking about at 14 and I would encourage our listeners and viewers right now and Gary, I'm sure you've thought about this many times, but I'd like everyone who's listening and watching to think, what were you thinking about at 14?
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What was your choice that you were having to make?
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And you just realize how far off it is from someone who doesn't have access to water and clean water.
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And that just makes you stop, pause, and think, and go, "Wow, like I may think I may not have this opportunity or I may not have enough money to move to a city, but it's like here we're talking about not even having water and clean water to have access to, let alone all those choices."
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One thing that comes to mind and I want to hear this from both of you because you know, this has been work that you've been doing for a number of years.
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This is not something that you know, both of you have just got involved with and you know, it's it's it's your life's work.
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It's it's it's something you're truly passionate about.
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When you first saw the pain for both of you, when you first when I hear those numbers, 771 million people, is that right?
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It was that Did I get that number right, Gary?
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Like 771 million people, you know, don't have access uh to clean water.
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When I'm hearing Matt's you shared the statistic just right now, we're losing a million children a year.
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Uh when I'm hearing those numbers, they are so high, right? They're astronomical.
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I hear a lot of people when they're exposed to that much pain, our natural inclination is to feel like we can't do anything.
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And our natural inclination is to feel a bit helpless, to feel sad, to feel disheartened.
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Uh we we feel like our empathy takes over and we go, "Well, well, what can I do?"
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When you first saw that, what gave both of you the feeling A that you had to do something, but B that what you do could make a difference?
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Let's start there and and then I'll follow up with another question.
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Let's start there and and Gary, you can go first again for us.
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I came at it from uh a kind of an almost analytical perspective after I had that emotional response to it, right?
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So, uh when I was in Guatemala as an undergraduate, you know, in university doing a volunteer project there, just seeing this girl uh going collecting this filthy water out of a drum, you know, in the slums and walking back through this sewage-filled lane.
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Uh that that to me was one person, right?
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And then coming back and then learning that this was the story for hundreds of millions of people.
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Uh I didn't get discouraged.
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I just like could see that one person.
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And it's like, "Okay, if we can just kind of tackle this, you know, even one person at a time."
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That was kind of the idealistic view of it.
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And And so, to me, what's been important about this journey that we kind of chronicle in in the in the book, is that, you know, you have to have that end goal in mind.
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And that can be daunting to see that, you know, our vision is that everyone in our lifetime, you know, has access to safe water.
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And that the challenge then becomes to match the scale of the solution to the scale of the problem, right?
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And I knew that philanthropy alone wasn't going to be that solution.
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Philanthropy has a role to play, but it was only by traveling and meeting women who were in these circumstances.
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I met a a woman in in India who had gone to a loan shark and was paying 150% interest to that loan shark just so she could build a toilet that she wanted.
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Other people who are doing this to, you know, taking out loans for water connections at exorbitant rates.
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And then using those insights and saying, "Well, what if, you know, we could turn the problem around and look at like getting these people access to these small loans that we now call water credit that would then unleash them to get the solutions that they wanted."
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So, I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here, but my my point is that you just have to take the problem a step at a time and find a solution that's there, evolve it, get the insights, and move on.
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And that is the the journey.
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And I think that's one of those kind of the subplots, I guess, of the book is that any of these seemingly intractable big social problems do have solutions.
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If you're tenacious, if you innovate, and and you work hard at it, you you believe that we can get there.
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Yeah, that's I would just say I it's interesting cuz I cuz I had the exact same kind of reaction that Gary did, which was to say, "Okay, well, I'm this is a this is a complex issue and I don't understand it entirely, but I know that if I raise money, if I create an organization and raise money, and and start start doing this direct impact work, building wells, right?
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I've seen the power of one well.
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So, if it if it if a thousand people have access to that one well, then I've helped a thousand people.
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So, why don't I start there?
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Why don't I just start moving forward?
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Why don't I start as Gary said, you know, take that first step.
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I don't know where the road is going, but I know I'm not getting there if I don't start walking.
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And so, so that was what And so, I did I'm sure incredibly naive things and I I didn't, you know, And And Gary, you know, when we met in in 2008, Gary you know, we talk about it in the book, Gary led with all of his failures, right?
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Which is an incredible attractive thing incredibly attractive thing to me because I think that is how, you know, we can't be afraid of failure.
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We can't be afraid of, you know, that can't stop our momentum, right?
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And it's how we learn and it's how we grow.
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Um and and and so, I I knew that I had to partner with somebody who had a more sophisticated understanding of of of this issue.
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And and I looked around for the the best person available.
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And uh And when they would not take my call, I found Gary.
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No, I And And And And that was really the the one thing that I did in this all of this work that was really I'm I'm really happy that I did that.
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It was the we it was really one of the smartest choices I've ever made in my life.
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And uh because of this uh water credit that Gary's talking about, which was this idea that that came from his experience and his lifetime of experience of being in these communities and talking to people and understanding what life was like.
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He also understood that people in the poorest communities were paying for water.
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They were already paying for it and in most cases paying way more than the middle class, way more than the people staying in the fancy hotels, um you know, who take it totally for granted.
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They They They weren't connected to the infrastructure and as a result, their life was built around trying to get it.
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And and and so that insight led him to this hypothesis that these loans could actually be paid back quite easily.
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And that's what, you know, 43.
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7 million people later, you know, these loans have paid back at over 99%.
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So, it's really the book is really us trying to bring the story of these women cuz, you know, you know, over 90% of our borrowers are women and this kind of incredibly heroic women, like on individual, you know, one by one by one, you know, to the tune of millions and millions of them have paid these loans back at at over 99% and it's just a it's a beautiful story and it's and it's about philosophically how we feel about about trying to help.
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It's not a kind of paternalistic, here's your solution, you're welcome.
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It's like it's going into the communities and and and and listening and and and then ultimately nudging a market towards people and letting them solve their own problems.
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And that's what we've seen happen now over 43 million times and that's really cool.
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Yeah, that's an that's an incredible impact.
16:29
And and I love the way you're thinking about it and the idea that there isn't just a one-size-fits-all solution.
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It's not about throwing money at it.
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It's actually giving people the tools and the skills and the abilities, as you rightly said, to solve their own challenges so that they feel empowered in the process rather than dependent again on on another outside source in another way.
16:48
I mean, can you expand more for those who don't know how the lack of access to water impacts girls and women's more than boys and men and and when you uncovered that, just tell us some of the reasons because I don't know if everyone knows why or or how that exists as a discrepancy, but also tell us some of the stories of some of the women that you've worked with as well.
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Women and girls have been the ones in families that have been charged with collecting the water for their households almost universally around the world.
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So, they obviously have the greatest stake in this and the greatest stake in trying to find a solution and the greatest stake in ensuring that that solution is sustainable.
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And that to us, you know, is like an an insight. That's an observation.
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So, it's like, well, let's where how are we going to shape our solutions to to meet their needs?
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And that's why, you know, more than 85% of the borrowers under our water credit program are women.
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And so, they're the ones that are repaying these loans at at a 99% rate.
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And they are the ones that have even more incentive to make sure that if something breaks down, that it gets repaired.
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And I think that's one of the the the beauties of of water credit as well, because often times water projects do break down.
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You know, some of the statistics are that about half of the water projects fail after 5 years.
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water projects fail after 5 years. And if you have access to an ecosystem of finance for water and sanitation, not just a one-and-done grant, but you can access a microloan to go get the the, you know, solution that you need to fix,
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you know, your your your water tap or whatever, that is an important part of the whole model and giving people, you know, we we talk about, you know, not necessarily seeing people living in poverty as a charity problem to be solved as much as a market to be served. And in order to kind of make the market
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And in order to kind of make the market work, we have to kind of nudge it towards the poor, which is what we do with with water.
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org to help, you know, get microfinance institutions that we partner with around the world the to de-risk this for them, because it's a new thing to loan for water and toilets and they're not quite sure how it works.
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So, we can use our philanthropic capital to kind of help them do market research to design these loan products so that they can go out and make these 43 million loans that have happened so far.
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And that is is kind of the the concept.
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And you know, one way to just boil it down is with a story, right?
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A woman I met in the Philippines recently, her name was Lona Deeza, and she was paying $60 a month to a water vendor who was selling water off the back of a truck, not even good quality water.
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And she took out a loan from one of our partners, and her loan repayment uh her her her payment each month is $5.
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Her water bill each month is $5.
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So right there you see $50 back in her pocket.
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I mean, think about, you know, when you're living in poverty, $50 is is a lot of money.
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You can now work to get your kids into school.
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You know, you can now afford the medicines that you might need for your for your family.
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You can invest in your future and build a future.
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And I think that's what we're trying to to help people unlock, and that's whose stories, you know, we're fortunate to be able to tell in the book.
20:12
Yeah, Gary, that what I find fascinating there, Matt, just before we come to you, that how of those obviously those water vendors who are not selling the the clean water or the best water, they've built up a certain level of authority and control in these markets, and like how is that dis- is that being dismantled as well by you doing this work?
20:33
Like where where are those people that kind of because I feel like that is so difficult obviously if you're not if you haven't traveled to these countries, it's hard for people to understand how that even works.
20:43
Um but but that kind of like authority, influence, and power, and control, how how are they reacting to the dismantling of their economies?
20:50
Because I'm sure that there's, you know, conflict or pain back from that side.
20:54
Like how how does that all work?
20:56
Sorry if it's an ignorant question, but it's just all. No. No, not at all.
21:00
And I and I think that I as one thing to understand is is even they are not making a fortune off of this system, right?
21:08
It's It's just really expensive to find water, to put it in a truck, to buy the diesel, to drive the truck around, and distribute it.
21:16
I mean, the efficiency of that versus doing it through a pipe is is incredible, right?
21:20
So, it's no surprise that they have to charge those amounts.
21:25
And so, yes, there's going to be dislocations there with with some of these vendors, but we haven't seen that crop up as a problem.
21:32
You know, it happens incrementally.
21:33
You know, everybody in the world is used to kind of having to reinvent themselves.
21:38
And so, I think that, you know, they they might go on to other businesses.
21:44
And and you you have tanker truck water that's needed for construction sites still, so they can kind of adjust to to those types of markets. Got it. That makes sense.
21:51
And Matt, what about you?
21:53
Was there a particular story of I mean, there's plenty in the book, but if there if there's someone that comes to mind right now where you know, you you saw women being more negatively affected by this than men.
22:04
Obviously, we've got the answer of why from Gary, but is there a particular story that stands out or an experience in that direction?
22:13
About 11 years ago, we were in Haiti and and at a uh um we we kind of were there for the kind of the christening of this new water system in this small village, and it was a real celebration.
22:22
And And amidst this celebration, I was introduced to a little girl who was 13.
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And and you know, she and I got her story, and her story was that she spent 3 to 4 hours every day collecting water.
22:35
And she was very lucky cuz that was she could still be in school, but after school every day, she went and she collected water.
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Took her 3 or 4 hours to get water for her family.
22:45
So, I say to this kid, I'm like, "Well, hey, you know, I kind of joke and say, 'Now you have more time for homework, right?'"
22:50
And she looks at me totally seriously, and she's like, "I don't need more time to do homework.
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I'm the smartest kid in my class."
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And the way she said it, I knew she was telling me the truth.
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I was like, "Oh, I remember being 13 and like I remember you in my class.
23:04
You are the smartest person."
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And and I said, "All right.
23:06
Well, so what are you going to do with all this time that you just you found your new your your new found 4 hours a day?"
23:11
And she looked at me and she goes, "I'm going to play." Wow. Yeah.
23:17
And I just and it but it like buckled me, you know, I I because at the time my my oldest daughter was 13.
23:25
And you know, so again, I felt that connection to this kid and it was like what else should a 13-year-old girl be thinking about, you know?
23:31
She should be thinking about playing and that's you know, again, another one of those incalculable ways in which this is so pernicious, right?
23:39
It just robs people of you know, in this case it robs children of their childhoods, you know, and their and then their potential the potential of their adulthood.
23:47
So Um so so yeah, it's things like that and it's good for us, you know, we go out about once a year. I I I go once a year.
23:56
Gary goes a lot more often, but um to to kind of go to these do these field visits and kind of connect to people and talk and it's just because as these numbers are accelerating and we're and we're kind of going from strength to strength with our with our with our work, which is really exciting.
24:12
It's it's important to to kind of keep in you know, keep a remind ourselves of of of what it means because it becomes numbers. 43.
24:19
7 million people, I mean, what a number.
24:23
But you know, I'm I'm still thinking about a girl I met 12 years ago, you know, and and so there are a lot there are so many millions of these people that we'll never meet, but um but all of the stories are are like that, you know, and this is all about positive change. Yeah, absolutely.
24:39
As a follow-up to that, Matt, how is how is your work with those people affected your daughter, too?
24:45
Because I'm intrigued as to how you know, for her seeing her father, you know, be so service focused and you know, giving energy to this.
24:52
Like have have you taken have you and Gary, too?
24:54
I you have you taken your kids out like, you know, have have you taken other children out and young people out?
24:59
I'm just fascinated to hear how it feels when you're looking at someone your age as opposed to both of you obviously as older men looking at younger people, but like to have people looking at people their own age who have this mindset.
25:09
I would love to hear some stories in that regard.
25:13
I I talk about it in the book, my mom and and and how she took me as a teenager to places where I witnessed extreme poverty and it was you know, and she didn't do any finger wagging at me or like lecturing.
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She just let me absorb it and and it really impacted me.
25:28
And so my my kids are what my our oldest is 23 and so she's out of the nest and then we've got a 15, a 13, and 11-year-old.
25:36
And so I've taken the 23-year-old and and and I've taken our 15-year-old.
25:41
We we took her on a trip to the Philippines a few years ago.
25:43
So she might have been 13 at the time.
25:45
Um you know, it's it's kind of eat different with each kid.
25:50
You kind of see what I what age can you is this going to be a positive you know, is it is this going to influence you positively and and so I took my my my daughter and and her best friend on on on a trip and it was and it was great and it's you know, letting them absorb, you know, with the kind of privilege that they have and they come from and that you know, this is all about where you're born and you're born into a family.
26:18
You don't have any you know, say over it and and uh and and and letting them try to put their let them try to put their lives in some context, which is how I felt what I felt happened to me.
26:29
When when I when I when my mother introduced me to a larger world, suddenly my life started to make more sense, right?
26:38
And I and you know, we're all trapped in these subjective realities and and and limited by them in some way, but I feel like travel and experience like this is kind of the greatest gift because it it it helps at at to to open us up.
26:51
Yeah, I think that's beautiful what you said about gauging when it's right for the individual because every you know, there's no right age for any of them to have this experience, but really making it personalized, I think that makes a lot of sense. Gary, how about you?
27:03
I'd love to hear your uh thoughts on this.
27:07
to take my daughter to Kenya and Ethiopia when she was about the same age as Matt's daughter when we were in the Philippines.
27:14
And uh yeah, it's it's you know, those types of experiences, you never know how they're going to reverberate later, you know, certainly, you know, uh you know, having that experience helped shape her.
27:30
I you know, she's done some great volunteer work herself.
27:32
She was a volunteer teacher, you know, after she got out of college.
27:38
and so I think that some of the echoes of what she saw there and experienced there and the fortune that she has relative to to many others in the world has has cropped up and and will continue to. Yeah, absolutely.
27:47
I wanted you to explain Gary, we've mentioned it a few times now.
27:52
Uh and and of course you talk about it deeply in the book.
27:53
For our audience, I'd love to for you to explain exactly in a simple way how water credit works.
28:00
And then Matt, I want you to talk about when you actually you know, you had a hard time accepting the idea behind water credit and then what made you change your mind to it because I think that's what I find fascinating about this partnership between both of you is that it wasn't just like this, oh we both love this, let's get you know, it wasn't it wasn't as simple as that.
28:18
There's there's been a lot of planning, thought, intention behind this partnership between both of you.
28:23
And I'd and I'd love to understand that.
28:25
So Gary, if you can explain what it is, how it works, how it functions.
28:28
We've obviously heard about some of the benefits and some elements of how it works, but I just want people to have a really clear idea.
28:32
And then Matt, if you could tell us about your journey with how you changed your mind about it, that'd be great. For sure. I'd be I'd be happy to.
28:39
I think, you know, it it is rooted in that that concept that people are already paying for water, right?
28:45
The challenge is they don't have that, you know, two, 300, 400 dollars up front that they need to get a water connection or to build a toilet at their home or to install a hand pump or a water tank.
28:59
And so, they are struggling day-to-day.
29:02
They can afford, you know, a dollar or two a day to get water, but they can't afford those those large investments.
29:08
And so, what we saw, you know, we saw that people were struggling with this.
29:13
And so, it's like, well, what if we could get microfinance institutions that are already operating around the world just to make loans to them?
29:21
That would That makes complete sense, right?
29:22
And then they would repay the loans.
29:24
Well, we went knocking on the doors of a lot of those MFIs, microfinance institutions, and we kind of got the door slammed in our face.
29:32
They're like, "You guys don't understand microfinance.
29:33
It's about income-generating loans.
29:35
You know, we make loans for sewing machines or cows because like by the end of the week, you're generating revenue because you're selling clothes or you're selling milk. This is why it works."
29:45
And we're like, "But, we believe it will work because it's going to help these people work at paying jobs."
29:51
And, you know, that part of it.
29:52
So, it's like, "We'll take on the risk."
29:54
And this is why we raise philanthropic capital because we need to make grants to a lot of these partners so that they can de-risk these types of loans so that they can do the market research and understand what things are good to loan for, what technologies are good, which ones are not to help them then launch lending businesses.
30:10
Once they do, then they go to the capital markets and get the wholesale capital, then break it into millions of these microloans.
30:20
And so, for a woman who gets that loan, literally overnight, you know, she may have been spending three hours a day securing water the day before, she now has a water tap right at her home.
30:31
And so, literally the value is created overnight for her to go out and work at a paying job so that she can repay the loan.
30:38
And now you fast forward and then, you know, these loans uh, you know, 3.
30:42
5 billion dollars in loans have gone out and they're repaid at a 99% rate.
30:50
Over 85% of the borrowers live on less than $6 a day.
30:53
About 30% live on less than $2 a day.
30:56
And yet they keep coming forward to take out these loans because it makes sense for them.
31:02
And they get the solutions that they want and they don't feel like a charity case anymore.
31:09
They feel like a market as a customer that's being served.
31:11
And that's how the whole thing can work financially so that we've now got the the financial plumbing if you will that connects the global capital markets where people can get a financial return on their investment to women making a few dollars a day.
31:27
Everybody wins and we all move forward.
31:31
Yeah, Gary, thank you for that.
31:31
Thanks for connecting the dots.
31:32
I know we talked about, you know, parts of that all over this conversation so far but that that was a really comprehensive breakdown and I think that really helps because there's so many facets of that that I think is is new like it's just so new it's so alien to us which which just shows how big an issue it is and and how much emphasis it needs.
31:51
And and Matt, tell us about when you first had the idea and you were skeptical slightly I guess and then you you obviously have come around 180.
31:59
I was excited about it as I as you know, as I kind of drilled down on it and and and and really worked it over with Gary and and thought about it but there is there was the aspect of it that was a little stomach turning which was wait a minute, we're going to make people the poorest people on earth pay for you know, I mean they're going to take these we're going to loan them money.
32:20
We're not going to right?
32:20
But but philosophically we're very aligned in this idea about, you know, charity quote-unquote charity and and and and how is you like like there's a paternalistic aspect to it.
32:31
There's a there's a kind of you know, here's your solution, you're welcome.
32:35
You know, uh uh arrogance about it uh often times and um and and what Gary's talking about is with these loan programs, the the the dignity that come with them, right?
32:48
And it's it's it's the dignity on the the side of the borrower, but it's also uh on the side of the lender kind of going, I see you as a human being.
32:57
You're a customer, you know what I mean? We can do business.
33:01
It's a very different relationship than uh you're just some problem I got to throw money at, right?
33:08
And and so so I I got over that pretty quickly. You know what I mean?
33:13
My stomach is like, oh god, market-based solutions, oh no. What am I doing?
33:18
But um but when I really thought about it and you know, it it it struck me as in in completely brilliant and um and and that's been born out.
33:26
I mean, we you know, we reached our first million people in 2012 and and now, you know, we're you know, we're we're at 43 million.
33:35
We're reaching you know, however many million a quarter now.
33:38
Um and it's just really accelerating and and that and that is illustrative of of, you know, the the the demand, right?
33:44
The demand for these loans because they make sense and um and it's not that paternalistic kind of charity solution that's going to be not working in 5 years because it's nobody's going to take a loan out for something they don't want. Yeah. Yeah.
34:02
They they they they know what solution they need and that's what they're going to take a loan out for and it's going to work and that's a sustainable solution for somebody and it's also them solving their own problem and and and it just took us to to to to nudge the market towards them and and let them claim their own agency and and and solve their own problem with with dignity.
34:23
Yeah, I I think that point in dignity is is so powerful and so important.
34:25
I it's I I know exactly what you mean.
34:28
It takes a while to get around it.
34:32
Uh because you're like, "Wait a minute, are we charging people for you know, like how how does this work?"
34:35
But Yeah, and the book like if you're going across the desert and you see somebody, you know, thirsty, you know, and then you sell them a bottle of water.
34:43
Like, you know, it doesn't it doesn't feel right, you know? Yeah.
34:49
Yeah, but but you're saying as as you rightly said that from a long-term perspective and from a sustainability perspective, this person's now building confidence.
34:57
They're they're building a as you said sense of agency.
34:59
They're feeling empowered.
35:00
They're feeling a sense of assurance that they are growing through this journey as well and they're able to as you said loan it for things that are important to them.
35:08
Tell tell me about this partnership for change that you both have because I think, you know, I I wonder whether when both of you got passionate because as far as I know, you got passionate independently and then of course connected with each other about this cause.
35:22
When when you're looking for a partnership for change, I think that can, you know, take a lot of time, effort, patience.
35:31
Uh there's so many things that need to align.
35:33
If there are people in our community audience thinking right now like, "Oh, I'd love to have someone else in my life that I could work with passionately about this or I would love to find someone."
35:40
What are some of the things that they should look for?
35:42
Matt, we obviously know Gary was your second choice.
35:45
So, we'll we'll start with what you were looking for in your first choice.
35:49
Uh and and Gary, I'm sure you had some other picks, too.
35:50
So, uh but no, I would love to know what you were looking for in a partner.
35:53
Were you even looking or was it just it was just so like, "Oh, wow, I'm so grateful that I bumped into someone who has this passion."
36:01
From both of your perspectives, I'd love to hear how you approach this because making a change is not easy. It's a long journey.
36:06
Uh you need different skill sets and different networks and communities.
36:11
And so, I often think that a lot of people say, "Oh, yeah, when when I find someone, then I can do something."
36:16
You were both independently I mean, Gary, you started in your college days, right?
36:20
So, I want to hear about uh how it was in the search of a partner, the pursuit of the partner, and then what you actually looked for, and why it was a good fit.
36:31
Well, I was looking for the expert in the space, and that Gary's name was the name that kept coming up, and and and in getting to know him, it was just clear why, and and I mean, he's just brilliant, and he's I mean, this water credit innovation is is a really big deal.
36:49
And and and and he arrived at that through his through his intelligence, but also through his tenacity, and and so I he was a he was a logical partner for me, exactly what I was looking for.
37:00
I I, you know, I I had kind of woke up in my late 20s with this very bizarre reality of being a celebrity, and and and and and wanted to find ways to do something good with that, and um and and I needed help, you know, and I wanted to be effective.
37:21
I didn't want to just It wasn't about soothing my own you know, ego, it was about really trying to do something that was helpful.
37:31
Um and and I think just in meeting Gary, like, you know, we we joined our organizations, and he had had Water Partners at that point for 20 years, and instantly gave up the title of Water Partners in for water.
37:41
org, and I think that showed like the humility, the the the lack of ego, right?
37:47
And I think we both came at it from that perspective.
37:49
It was never about us or about ego, it was really about how can we be most effective, right?
37:56
And that and we're really aligned in that way, and and in that sense, it means just the perfect partner for me. That's beautiful.
38:03
You you made up for it, Matt.
38:04
That was very heart-heartfelt, and no, genuinely, that that's that's so wonderful to hear.
38:09
I I love hearing about that, and and the quality of humility, and like you said, being able to put aside Water Partners and start something on the water. org. That's fantastic. Gary, you your thoughts?
38:21
Yeah, I think, you know, the the serendipity of it was that's definitely at play allowing our paths to cross, but certainly, you know, I'd been heads down on this problem and had been trying to innovate and, you know, this this whole concept of, you
38:37
know, coming at it from you know, initially I was very much about like let's go drill wells and let's, you know, raise a lot of money and give it away, but quickly realized that there was never going to be enough, right? And so,
38:47
And so, this concept of of lighting a candle versus cursing the darkness is what kind of where where I came at it from.
38:53
And so, I was trying to to find those ways to do that.
38:59
And we, you know, we're catching on, you know, water credit was was like it wasn't like gangbusters yet, but we knew that we kind of had, you know, a tiger by the tail in terms of how this could scale.
39:10
And but, you know, I I'm an engineer, like I don't What do I know about storytelling?
39:15
What do I know about like moving an audience?
39:16
What do I know about like having a big voice in this because we weren't ready for that because it we, you know, we had a certain amount of humility until that point and then it's like now we got to tell the story.
39:29
And then, to be able to get introduced to and cross paths with, you know, an incredible storyteller that Matt is and seeing that firsthand, it just was, you know, it was one of those things 1 + 1 = 3 for sure.
39:45
And it seemed that way at first for both of us, but then as we got to know each other kind of at a at a deeper level, our philosophies and our upbringings and our experiences, it's just like, "Okay, I can really trust this guy."
39:55
I think we both felt that from both directions.
39:57
And once you have that trust and you have, you know, everything set in motion, it's kind of the table set for you, and you bring those relative strengths, you know, I can certainly say Matt has has evolved more as a water expert than I have as an actor.
40:14
But Very low bar to clear there.
40:17
But But what I also didn't tell you earlier is I I went to Ben Affleck first. He turned me down flat. I ended up with Matt. I love it. I love it.
40:24
I want You've both been so generous with your time.
40:26
I have one last question, which is just how people can support.
40:29
Of course, I highly recommend everyone goes and grabs a copy of the book, The Worth of Water, Our Story of Chasing Solutions to the world's greatest challenge.
40:37
It will be in the comments, the caption, the bio, the link in the podcast.
40:41
You can go and order the book right now.
40:43
But Gary, you used a water metaphor at the end of the chapter of the chapter called The Wave, and you said to end the crisis, we need a wave.
40:54
I would love to know how my community can be a part of that wave, how I can be a part of that wave.
40:58
What are the opportunities and ways people can get involved?
41:02
Because I think ultimately, there's there's going to be no one who reads the book that isn't moved by the work, who everything you've shared today, I think will want to move people into action. How can people support?
41:13
That's That's the last question I want to ask you because I know I'm mindful of your time as well.
41:17
That's a great question, and you know, this we do need that support.
41:19
This is such a big crisis.
41:21
It's all hands on deck, and there are a number of ways, of course.
41:25
You know, as authors, Matt and I are donating all of our fees back to to water. org for the book.
41:30
So, every time somebody buys the book, you are helping people get access to to safe water.
41:34
You know, if the book moves you, take it to your book club.
41:38
You know, spread the word that way.
41:41
You know, pass the book on to to someone else.
41:43
Because it is you know, these individual acts of people who provide that that funding that we need so that these individual stories that are in the book can come to life.
41:56
That is what it's going to take from from all of us, and it to the extent that, you know, you're using your voice, Jay, to to help make this happen.
42:03
We greatly appreciate that. Absolutely.
42:07
No, I I I would love to visit one of the places with you one day.
42:09
I think it would be a really beautiful experience for me and my team, too.
42:12
So, We'd love to have you, yeah.
42:15
Yeah, that would be really Yeah, that would be really beautiful.
42:17
That would be wonderful to do.
42:18
So, uh Matt, did you want to add anything to what everything that Gary just said of how we anyone can get involved or anything that comes to your mind or heart? Well, yeah.
42:26
I mean, it's $5 to bring a person clean water for life.
42:28
And uh you know, so it's not you know, it's Yeah, I know.
42:33
It's it's it's it's crazy, but uh but that's what it is.
42:35
And and uh and yeah, and the book obviously, you know, uh we'll you know, all the you know, our money goes towards that.
42:42
So, um so yeah, and and and please share the story and uh you know, talk about it.
42:49
It's it's a really fascinating issue.
42:49
I promise if you want to engage with it and uh and uh you know, and and and try to kind of move the needle um cuz it's again so hard for us to relate, you know, cuz cuz water is in such abundance for us. Yeah.
43:03
And and and as we were saying on purpose, it's like when when we are a part of the solution, uh the view of the problem changes, right?
43:10
When you see these stories, and that's why I love what Gary and Matt have done here.
43:13
When you read these stories and you hear these stories, and when you share the book with people, and you get to see that change does work, that there are positive stories, that you know, the we we do live in a world that has challenges and issues, but that $5 could make a difference to someone's daily life and how they feel when they wake up in the morning.
43:31
And that makes a difference.
43:34
Like, that has a ripple effect.
43:36
And I think we need to tell these stories more because we can get caught up in the stories of we can't do anything and we are helpless.
43:42
Uh but Gary and Matt, I'm so grateful that you've given us a platform through which we can all feel like we're having an impact.
43:49
Uh again, highly recommend everyone grab the book.
43:51
As you said, all proceeds from the book go towards uh all the amazing work.
43:56
Uh and I thank you both for taking the time and and giving me your energy.
43:59
And look forward to continuing to support you guys.
44:01
So, uh thank you so much for what you're doing. It's it's so powerful. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Jay. Take care. Thank you so much.
44:09
Everyone who's been listening or watching, make sure you share this interview, pass it along, uh tag us all on social media letting us know what's resonated with you, what's connected with you. Uh share it.
44:20
When you order the book, tag me to let me know you've ordered it so that I can reshare that across social media as well.
44:26
And thank you all for listening and watching. Thanks, Matt. Thanks, Gary. Thank you so much.
44:29
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44:36
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44:45
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