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All right, everyone.
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So, I did this podcast for me, and I'm going to explain why.
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Today's guest is this guy named Jack Carr.
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If you don't know who Jack Carr is, you guys should look him up, but basically he has this series of books called The Terminal List.
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Terminal List is now a It's a definitely a best-selling book.
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They've sold millions and millions of copy.
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It's a novel about a Navy SEAL who's wronged, and then there's like eight books of him getting revenge.
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And it's an Amazon Prime show with Chris Pratt. It's awesome.
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However, I had Jack Carr on the podcast because I read his book when I was going through a little bit of a period where I had just had a daughter, and I wanted to do something where I would become a little bit more of a man than before.
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I wanted to learn something about high integrity, about things I should be doing as a man, and it just kind of honestly changed my life.
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And it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, I think you're going to enjoy this episode.
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We talk a lot about his writing process, but we mostly talk about the process of masculinity and what it means to be a stand-up person.
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We talked about the business of writing books and how he makes money.
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I think you're going to enjoy this one.
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It's a little bit out of left field, but try it out.
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I uh I love this guy, so check it out.
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So, I'm happy you're here, man.
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We um this is a business show, and so like we don't do like authors and stuff like that all the time, but I published a podcast where I was talking about how I loved your books, and I I'm halfway through the third one.
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And the reason I found you guys uh or I I found you um is because I tweeted out, "I want to read a book that's the ultimate man novel."
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Something that is action, adventure, page-turning, high integrity, like teaches you values, cuz I just had a kid, and I was like I I want to be inspired a little bit.
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And all these people were tagging you and saying Jack Carr.
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And I was like, "I've never heard of Jack Carr.
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I don't know I don't know anything about this. What is this all about?"
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And I started reading the Terminal List, and I read the first book, and I was hooked. And I'm so hooked.
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I'm on uh I'm halfway through number three, and I'm going to make it through all through seven.
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And uh you I I think you actually are like a lot more business-savvy than most authors, if I had to guess.
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It's It's more entrepreneurial than uh I think there's a difference between being entrepreneurial and being business-minded, which is why at some point your guerrilla startups eventually sell or bring in a business person to run it and professionalize it and scale it, and that sort of a thing.
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Um but I didn't really think of myself that way until about I'd say a month before the first first book came out.
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So, I'm all into the the novel, leaving the SEAL teams, and just writing cuz I love it.
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My mom was a librarian, so I grew up surrounded by books and a love of reading, as you can tell from the the background here.
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I have quite the quite the collection.
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Always been a reader, and it's really the foundation from which everything else has grown.
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And so, it's all about the book.
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And then, about a month, maybe two, before first book publication in March of 2018, I was like, "Oh, okay.
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I'm going to look at this the way I looked at the battlefield in Iraq and Afghanistan."
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Meaning, you are looking for gaps in the enemy's defenses, you're looking how to adapt, how to capitalize on momentum.
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And I just looked at the space in general, and I was like, "Oh, wow.
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Publishing really hasn't kept up.
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It's a very It's a very legacy type of a business.
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And they do so well because they've been around for so long, so they're very entrenched in what they do, and they make some money, but they're safe as far as business goes.
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Very slow to adapt to things.
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Even like audiobooks or ebooks, that sort of that thing.
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So, I looked at it, and I was like, "Okay, why when I get my uh iPhone, it doesn't just come in a Manila envelope?
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It comes in a packaging, and there's much thought went into that packaging as went into the actual product itself."
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And when I was getting books from other authors for blurbs or that sort of a thing, they were just coming in these Manila envelopes.
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Yeah, you you send these like amazing boxes.
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One of my one of my really close friends is Richard Ryan and I went to his house. so awesome.
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I went to his house and I saw like the boxes that you send to people and I told I go I told Richard I go after this pod I'm going to try and make Jack like me so much that he sends me one of these boxes.
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I got your name's your name's on the one of this with the next one.
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So it's a gun case and it has the book does it have anything else in it?
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Yep, so it's uh you open this thing up and it's kind of a way to make people who want to help you like make it easy for them. Like if I send you Yeah.
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Chris Pratt maybe he has time to open it maybe he doesn't but if he does then this makes it easy for him to do a 15 second something to help, you know? So that's awesome.
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bookmark that has the leather bookmark all super high quality stuff cuz everything has to be that commensurate level as the novel itself.
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So everything I do has to be Like right here.
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Like we talked about you guys talked about your site merch on the site.
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It's not just a glass where you go to some company and like pick keychain, pick hat, pick mug.
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It's like those are handpicked by me and they're all the best you can possibly find or the best that I can possibly find.
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I try to do made in America not always possible.
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Try to veer towards better known businesses but book is in there.
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Inside the book is personalized to the person and then they have stickers. There's three stickers. all of them? Personalize all of them.
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How many of those did you send out?
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I send out about 350 and most of them go to people as just thank yous.
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They're so people with no social media presence at all.
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Just a thank you for whatever X Y or Z.
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Someone who helped me with research on a novel.
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Uh this one someone helped me with some aircraft stuff cuz I'm not a pilot so he'll get one.
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Um some fans that were with me from the very beginning they get they get them and then people like Chris Pratt get them and and uh and he gets the same one as as everybody else but the coin goes in there and a coin different coin with every single book.
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And you can't buy these and I know you talked about um on the that podcast where you talked about me and James Patterson you uh you also uh talked about the Memento Mori coins. I don't sell these. Um You should.
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I should, but to if I wanted to if you wanted to make some money on it, but for me right now I'm not saying I never will cuz people ask me to sell them all the time, but I have to give you one.
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So, that's kind of the thing with these is I have to get a book signing, law enforcement, military, firefighter, somebody they they coin you and they have this in their hand and they shake your hand and then I have these in my back pocket and I coin them back.
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I want to talk about the economics and all this stuff, but how do how do I introduce you to people?
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So, like I was thinking about this I was like, well, so Jack writes these books that's so uh the the one-line summary is basically uh a Navy SEAL who's wronged and he goes and gets revenge involving family, country, and a bunch of adventure.
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It's a seven or eight book series.
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Now it's an uh Amazon Prime show starring Chris Pratt, but the cool thing about the book you do a bunch of thing interestings interesting, but it's like a huge hit and when I was on Amazon it has like a 100,000 plus reviews across all the books, something like that.
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Can you say how many copies have you sold so far?
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You know, I don't know cuz I don't keep track of those things and this is where the entrepreneurial side versus the business side comes in that we talked about at the beginning is I spend zero bandwidth worried about that.
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So, my my metric is is Simon & Schuster happy? And how happy are they? And they're ecstatic.
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So, that is my Millions I would assume. Yeah, it's up there. Yeah.
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Is it uh do you think it's north of 10 million? No, I don't think so. That's just a guess.
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I don't know, but I think they'd tell me if it was north of 10 mil. It's up there.
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Um I think we had um I'm I'm friendly with James Clear and Mark Manson and I think that they have some of the best-selling books of the last like maybe decade, but I would imagine I would have imagined that after a few more years you're going to be up there because you you are a Navy SEAL, which you've talked a bunch about, but you started writing, but the books are relatively new, right?
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Yeah, so 2018 I started writing the first one when I was still in as I was getting out of the military.
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So, I think December of 2014, I wrote my first words for the first book.
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So, they they came out 2018 and then there's been one a year ever since.
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And this is the first year with two books.
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So, I have my newest one, the seventh book in the series, Red Sky Morning, comes out in June.
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And then I have my first non-fiction that comes out in September.
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So, September 24th and that's on the 1983 Beirut Barracks bombing.
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And you probably noticed that we have a lot of history into the novels as well.
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That's why I liked it so much.
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You know, I'm I'm reading a Looming Towers right now and I typically read American history.
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My audience knows me for and that's why I wanted to read yours.
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And what's weird is a lot of I think without giving it away, there's talk of a virus, there's talk of Ukraine before any of this stuff was even a thing. Yeah, that was crazy.
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So, the book with Ukraine came out in 2019.
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So, I was writing it before.
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I was writing it actually before I sent the first novel to Simon & Schuster.
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I didn't have a publishing deal, but I always knew I was going to write two books because of the John Grisham story.
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He wrote A Time to Kill first and he could not give that book away.
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And then he writes The Firm, that takes off, it's the movie with Tom Cruise and we've had a John Grisham legal thriller every year since.
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You you you've got a good track record at the moment for like predicting a handful of things.
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Well, I hope this next one doesn't come true.
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This next one's pretty brutal.
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So, I hope this next one does not predict the future.
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All right, everyone, really quick.
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If you've heard this podcast before, you know that Sean and I think that the most important skill set you need in business is copywriting.
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And so, what we did was we went through all of the podcasts that we've done.
9:08
It's like 500 of them and we found all the best copywriting tips, our resources, our frameworks, our templates.
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We aggregated all of them into one simple document so you can skim it all and get everything that we've ever talked about with copywriting. It's in the link below. It's awesome. Check it out.
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What did you I know that you're writing you're talking about like finding an agent and things like that and you're like, I didn't even know you needed an agent.
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I think you read like Steven Pressfield to like learn a little bit about the publishing process.
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But what did what would you have defined as uh a success like when you're first starting, cuz I imagine now you you've made millions of dollars, you're famous, your books are loved, it's a movie.
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I know that you originally before Chris Pratt was even a movie star, he was just a Parks and Rec guy, you're like Chris Pratt's the guy.
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So like you've kind of manifested all this, but what would you have defined as success like 10 years ago?
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You know, it it it personal or professional, different different sides.
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But uh for me growing up, I'm reading all these books, they all say number one New York Times best-selling author on the cover.
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So I'm reading Tom Clancy, uh I'm reading Nelson DeMille, I'm reading AJ Quinnell, JC Pollock, Mark Olden, Louis L'Amour, all these guys who were like my professors in the art of storytelling.
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But at the top of each one of those paperbacks, and I think I have a tie I have a Tom Clancy one somewhere here, but it says number one New York Times best-selling author.
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So in my head, from age well, let's say 11, so sixth grade, when I start reading all the same types of books my parents are reading, I'm fifth grade is kind of that transition time from young adult type fiction to the same types of books that I'm reading and writing today. Uh they all said that.
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And so in my head at that age, knowing that I wanted to write in the future just like I knew that I wanted to be a Navy SEAL from age seven onward, that I I didn't think of it in terms of hey, this is success once I do this, but that was like a benchmark.
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That's funny that was your goal, because I think in the same podcast you said you listened to uh for MFM, we talked about this guy, I don't remember his name, but basically he self-published a book, and he got really popular on Goodreads.
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And I think on Goodreads collectively he also had hundreds of thousands uh of of reviews.
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And from reading your books, I wouldn't call you anti-establishment, but there's like some subtext there of like don't trust too many people and and whatever.
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I would have not thought that you'd give a [ __ ] about New York Times, and more so just do lots of people love this, and does this create like financial freedom, and and like spiritual wholesomeness for you.
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You know what I'm saying?
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Like if if you could like make if you could feel good and and make money, that would be the win. And Not New York Times.
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Yeah, well, the New York Times is like you know, like when you see a book that says number one or just like USA Today best seller.
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What that tells me and what it has always told me is that they didn't make the New York Times list.
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So New York Times list is kind of a benchmark.
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Cuz you can be a number one something on Amazon in pretty much anything.
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So I knew that that that's not my I'm never going to say that.
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I think the the publisher for the first or second book they put something like that somewhere and I was like, "Take that down.
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I don't want that in my calculus.
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That's not that's not me."
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For me like leaving the military, the things that were important, I think it's important to articulate that no matter what it is.
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Guys, we're all going to go through transitions in life whether it's professional transition, death of a loved one, divorce, whatever it might be, but you're going to move on and do something else. Change change jobs.
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And for me it was financial freedom and being able to control my schedule.
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And I knew I wanted to write.
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I knew from a very early age that after my time in the military, I would write thrillers just like I'm writing today.
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Were you writing books from an early age?
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So yeah, always a writer.
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So at any time we're having English English class in in high school, that's what I gravitated towards.
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I read The Most Dangerous Game which is a short story that came out in 1924.
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Heavily inspired your book three, I assume. Exactly. Exactly.
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That's my And so in sixth grade I said, "One day I'm going to write a novel pays tribute to that short story."
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And that's Savage Son, the one that you're on right now.
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So it's So it it's So I was writing, but I wasn't writing throughout my time in the military. I was reading.
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So I'm always reading and I'm reading both non-fiction and fiction.
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So I'm always just got There's never been a time when I haven't had a book in my hand or know what I'm going to read next.
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There's a bunch of jokes.
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I'm friends with a bunch of SEAL guys and there's a joke that like many of them want to write a book because you guys experience such like crazy lives.
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But there are like some actually interesting people doing stuff uh in the creative space.
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Uh so obviously you and then we know Jocko and and people like that, but then there's Mr. Ballen. Do you follow Mr. Ballen?
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No, I know who he is, but I've never never met him and I haven't watched any of his uh stuff yet, but I know who he is. I So Mr.
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Ballen, I listened to all of his stuff. So Mr.
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Ballen um it started I think as a YouTube page and he was basically like just telling scary 10 and 20-minute stories of true crimes.
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And I don't know how he managed to do this because but for I mean he's a great delivery.
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Uh he he delivers his stories wonderfully.
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So I guess it's it's it's it's uh clear how he kind of figured it out, but now it's like this massive thing.
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I don't He's got millions and millions of subscribers in Austin near where I live.
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He's got a billboard now where he's got this deal with Audible and it's like pretty amazing that uh this guy's pulled this off.
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He doesn't pull too many details from his his military days, but it is like interesting to see some of these like ex-SEAL guys or SEAL guys like tell some of these like interesting stories and be creative because when I think of you guys, I think of like a tough guy.
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I don't think of like an artistic guy. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
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Well, on the battlefield you have to be creative and I think that's something that really was what made us successful in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places around the world over the last uh 20 years that we were at war engaged in those places is being able to be creative and be very be creative very quickly and be aggressive problem solvers.
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Um so now I can be an aggressive problem solver, but you know, what if I make a mistake, no one's coming home in a body bag and I can sleep on it and I can come back to something in a month, which is why when I do the outlines for these books and I get to a place where I'm like, "Oh, how's James Reece going to get out of this one?"
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I don't let it stall me out.
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I know that I have a year to figure this out cuz it's one book a year, so it takes about a the whole process takes about a year, but uh I don't get stuck there.
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I know that I'm going to figure it out.
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Where on the battlefield you're making split-second decisions um that are going to impact people's lives forever if you make the wrong one.
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There's this amazing book called Made to Stick.
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I read Made to Stick in 2008 or 2010. It's awesome.
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It's by I think his name is I think it's the Heath brothers out of Stanford.
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And it's a whole book about how to make ideas stick.
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And there's like six or eight principles.
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And one example they give is um uh like if I told you uh a movie theater popcorn had 100 g of fat, that doesn't really mean anything.
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But if I got 100 g of fat and I showed that butter and like you could grab it, or if I showed you like a black smoker's lung, then it's an easier way to understand and remember an idea.
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Um one thing that the book says is they talk about the demise of local newspapers and they tell story about this guy in North Carolina who's got a thriving local newspaper.
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And they go, "Hey Will, what's your what's your deal?
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What's your secret with this newspaper?"
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And he goes, "Names, names, and names. It's simple.
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If I could print the Yellow Pages, I would.
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All I want to do is name as many local people and their friends as possible in their newspaper in my newspaper because people will buy it more to see their friends and family and themselves."
16:34
Something you do in your book, and this is what I talked about in the last podcast, and what what I thought was savvy is you name so many products.
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Like it's to the point now where I'm I have a notification on my Bring a Trailer profile to see a Land Cruiser cuz I want to buy a I want to buy a Land Cruiser.
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I know all about Land Cruisers.
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I just bought Someone just I talked about that on the podcast.
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Someone just sent me one of your not one of yours, but a hatchet.
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I'm looking at like kill people like fanny packs.
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You like name all of this stuff where I'm like I didn't even know I need this pair of sunglasses, but because James Reese is using the sunglass, like I want it.
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Or like Black Rifle Coffee, I'm President Richard Ryan, one of the founders.
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You name Black Rifle Coffee all the time.
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You talk about uh I think his name is uh uh Reef.
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He has this leather type of boot that's a little bit more sophisticated than James Reece's because he's a more of a a suave type of guy.
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And I find myself Googling this stuff and I notice on your website you list many of the stuff.
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So, it's like James Reece's like daily wear in book one or or the guns, the planes, cars, and and supplies in book two.
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Do you monetize that well?
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No, I've been a gear guy my entire life and I should monetize.
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People like assume that you are like right from the get-go, but I don't know.
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At the beginning I knew I knew some of those brands cuz I'm just friends with them from getting that gear to go down range with in the SEAL Teams and that's one of the thing. Um but not all of them.
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It's just stuff that I use but I have no personal connection to the the company.
18:02
But, it added up a personal not an authentic element.
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So, if you're a someone in law enforcement or a firefighter or intelligence agent or you know, military and you're reading this thing and you can be reading a book and it can just say he picked up the shotgun. He picked up the pistol.
18:16
He but that doesn't tell me anything about the character.
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You know, when I see somebody and they walk in or they walk onto a range, I can see the pistol that they have on.
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I can see the holster they're using, the belt, their shoes, their hat, their watch.
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That tells me a story about them, the car they pull up in.
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That all tells me something.
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That's giving me information.
18:35
Uh and so, same thing in these books.
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And I think if you if you spend, let's say, 20 years in the SEAL Teams or Special Forces or whatever it is, then you're reading a book and it says, "Hey, the main protagonist has a background similar to yours, but he's and it shows what he's carrying and you're like, "Oh man, we would never carry something like that.
18:50
Like this doesn't make any sense.
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This person obviously doesn't know what they're writing about."
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And so, then that impacts the story in general.
18:55
So, it's it's a way to to add authenticity and tell a story about that person because sometimes I'll use brands that that it says this person doesn't know what they're doing.
19:07
And that tells that reader who's in law enforcement or military, "Ah, that tells me something about this guy's character even before he's described, before he even opens his mouth.
19:17
Uh and so I so I love using those brands that way.
19:19
So I haven't monetized it the way people think that probably I have by looking at the website cuz I put together gear guides for each book and I have a Father's Day gear guide and a holiday gear guide and that sort of thing and I link out and a few of them have affiliate links.
19:30
There's an Amazon affiliate link.
19:32
I don't really think it makes I have no idea if it makes any money or not actually.
19:35
Um but it's more for the fun of it and also to help a lot of those companies like better known businesses is like this is a way for me to give back and offer a helping hand.
19:43
Yeah, and I get that for like a small business, but there's many businesses that you mentioned or brands that aren't small and your website gets traffic and I'm like why wouldn't you monetize that?
19:55
You know, like there's um gearjunkie.
19:56
com, there's uh uh Gear Patrol, there's uh Steven Rinella's company uh MeatEater and they have turned these into like big businesses of merchandise or affiliates.
20:09
What is stop cuz I know you're entrepreneurial, what's stopping you from turning this into like a legitimate media company beyond what most authors do?
20:16
I think the first hesitation was uh that I wanted it to remain authentic.
20:19
I didn't want anyone to ever be able to say they were going to say it anyway, but it I didn't want it to be true.
20:24
That hey, all of a sudden he had this one pistol in there and all of a sudden he switched.
20:29
How much are they paying him to put that in there?
20:31
And the answer is zero dollars.
20:32
Uh the answer is always zero dollars.
20:34
People have reached out and said, "How much How can I How much do you need to put my product on your gear gear guide?"
20:39
And the answer is nothing.
20:41
What do you think an author like you, if you wanted to do it, which you don't, but I bet it happens, what would you have What would a brand charge? I don't even know.
20:50
And at some point maybe it might turn into to something like that where it's a little more more obvious and there's like the Jocko podcast is something that that gets sponsored um and has ads on it, but those are obvious.
20:59
Uh sponsors totally sponsor that separate and there's never anything attached to that that says you're going to do any of these posts on social media and you're going to do this in the gear guide, and you're going to put it in the book, or you're going to put it in the show.
21:09
Uh so, if none of that exists, um and I I want to keep it pure like that, but I I saw the podcast as a way to semi-monetize a little bit of those some of those relationships cuz they want to help anyway.
21:20
They want to be associated.
21:21
I have this podcast that uh is a way that authors couldn't reach an audience 20, 30, 40 years ago.
21:24
Um so, once again, I'm looking at that battle space.
21:28
I looked at it at well, James Patterson, he's been around as you did your research since the '70s uh as Stephen King '70s.
21:35
So, there's a reason that those names on the New York Times list that are at the top are the same names that our parents would have opened the New York Times bestseller list and seen back in the '80s, '90s.
21:43
So, it's uh I I realized that, "Hey, what can I do today to create new readers?"
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Because those authors that have been around for so long, they have a reader base that they have built up over 30, 40 years.
21:54
Uh I have I have not done that, and there's more distractions today.
21:59
So, back then, let's say '70s, '80s, you have a book that's competing with maybe television and possibly film.
22:04
So, those are three things, a newspaper, a magazine, but that's that's about it.
22:09
So, now when I'm stepping into this space, now I'm competing with all those other distractions and all those other products and platforms, streaming every single streaming service, every single app, every single social media, all internet, everything out there, plus the movies and TV shows still.
22:25
Um so, I realized that if you want to build an audience today with new readers, well, now it's podcast, it's social presence, it's that blog, it's adding something of value to their lives throughout the year that they're not paying for, um but that helps create that connection.
22:42
Yeah, another guy who does that well is a friend of mine who I'm I I I would imagine you're friendly with him, too, is Ryan Holiday.
22:47
So, Ryan does a really good job.
22:50
I don't know how his output is so high because he's always has a book that he's doing.
22:53
I think he has maybe two daily emails, for sure one.
22:58
He has a business selling merch and coins and things like that.
23:03
And then he has a bookstore.
23:03
I don't know how his output so high as a podcast.
23:06
And then uh you have a bunch of stuff.
23:09
You got the site, you have the newsletter, social media, you got your podcast, you're always on other people's podcast. Um how big's your team?
23:17
It was me until uh this last fall.
23:19
And then I got a chief of staff with no staff. And she's she's amazing.
23:23
And then starting in February, we started adding to the team.
23:27
So this is my first year of putting a team together.
23:29
And I was writing this last book.
23:31
I thought it was going to be First I thought it was going to be finished December 1st and then January 1st and then February 1st.
23:36
It ended up being the longest book here.
23:37
It's Actually It's uh it ended up being the longest book today because you just don't know when you start.
23:43
Like I thought I had a pretty good idea, seventh book, like I it'll be about 115, 120,000 words.
23:47
It ended up being like 150,000 words.
23:49
Uh which is adds months to the writing process.
23:54
So I had started hiring some people to help, but I didn't really get to interact with them at all until about 2 weeks ago when I finally sent my final edits in for the put it in all of it.
24:01
So it's So now the team is as of yesterday six.
24:08
Um but it's very new, very new.
24:08
How How are you balancing being a writer or creator and also a manager?
24:12
Is that a pain I mean it's I think it sucks. Yeah.
24:19
Well, up to this point it's been just me.
24:20
My wife like she was doing all the fulfillment and I had like our boxes all over our bedroom, all over the the living room, like just chaos.
24:27
Um and I realized early on that I needed help, but you're not yet to a place financially where it makes sense to do that.
24:34
So it's just been me essentially start up in the garage, making a computer in 1976, 1977, building all the parts, also letting people know it exists, why they need it, and doing every single being the CEO, the CFO, the CMO, the creator, being every single piece.
24:52
Now and as of yesterday I hired six person yesterday to handle Hollywood side of the house cuz there's multiple projects in Hollywood now and I was doing all the calls, all the writing, all the creative, everything.
25:03
You are doing that by yourself?
25:03
So, no, each one has a team and as each project and a lot of some haven't been announced yet, um but you're putting together a team of a showrunner, director, a lead, uh production team, all those things um and you're essentially putting together this package then to take to to Netflix usually through another production company that you have a relationship with.
25:24
So, there's multiple of those going on right now.
25:26
So, I'm jumping between um either writing a script, writing a uh writing a uh executive summary, writing an outline, doing a creative back and forth to see if someone is the right person to be a showrunner uh for the show or be a lead writer on a show for a new idea.
25:39
And then I'm jumping back in cuz I have a deadline on my novel and I'm doing that and then I have to jump over to the podcast that I How are you dealing with that context switching?
25:47
Cuz that's that's a that's really hard.
25:49
Yeah, no, well, yesterday I had my uh call with the person I brought on to run the Hollywood side of the house and I I just told him I'm like, I need to be prioritized and execute.
25:56
I need to be focused on one thing at a time and then switch to the next one.
26:01
There'll be a little bit of overlap there as you're editing or coming up with generating some new ideas, but for the most part I need to be focused on one thing at a time and then switch gears.
26:09
And I know you do something cool.
26:11
So, you uh you write I think I heard on your podcast you like to write a uh one-pager.
26:16
And you write a one-pager I think where you didn't exactly explain what's on the one-pager, but I imagine it's like an a summary of the book.
26:25
But maybe there's more to it like my goal is that it sells as many copies or it makes a reader feel like this.
26:30
But you said uh I do this one-pager because I know that this project I'm going to spend 18 minutes of my life and I want to make sure that like I'm willing to do that.
26:39
And I think that's kind of cool because when you know, running a business tends to actually probably go into three or five-year cycles.
26:45
But I thought it was pretty cool that writing this one-pager it it you know, Amazon does this thing where they go, "We're going to create this product.
26:55
Go ahead and write the press release now, so we know like what do we want it to say in 24 or 12 months when this product is live?
27:03
What how do we want it to be received?
27:05
What do we want to tell people it do it does?
27:07
And then let's work backwards to creating that."
27:08
And that's sort of like what you're doing and I thought that was pretty interesting and I try to do that with a bunch of projects in my life, whether it be like a fitness challenge that I have or a business or whatever, like a new life event where it's like, "What's What's the outcome going to be like this in in 12 or 18 months and and do I really want to go all in on that?"
27:28
And I thought that was cool you do that.
27:29
Yeah, I didn't know that about Amazon, but it makes total sense. So, I do that.
27:31
All right, it's it's like it's kind of like what you'd find on the back of a in a on the back of a paperback or in the front flap of a of a book, you know, something that describes it.
27:39
So, it's about a one one-pager and it's like a executive summary and then I read it to myself and I ask myself that question, "Is this worth the next year year and a half of my life?"
27:48
And if the question is yes, if I'm that excited about it, then I read it again and I ask myself another question, "If someone's walking by Hudson News in the airport, they're pulling this off the shelf and they're to read this same thing or something similar, is that so is it does this idea get them excited enough to want to spend time that they're never going to get back in these pages?"
28:05
So, as I'm writing, I am thinking about that.
28:09
That's what I'm thinking about.
28:09
I'm thinking about the story.
28:10
It's all about the story.
28:12
It's not about what's selling.
28:14
It's not about how short short chapters or longer chapters, what's popular.
28:17
It's about none of those things.
28:19
It is all about the story because you're never going to going to please everyone.
28:21
So, if you honor the story and all your bandwidth, all your heart and soul into every single word, then you're respecting that reader or that listener today who is spending time with you that they're never going to get back.
28:32
So, that's how I approach it.
28:32
I don't approach it uh from a business side, which maybe I should, like, "Oh, what's selling? What's popular?"
28:38
But no, it all has to be about the story.
28:43
Why not just uh be your own publisher at this point?
28:45
You know, you have like a pretty nice direct audience.
28:46
You're You've been on Joe Rogan a bunch of times and those get millions of views.
28:51
You get millions of impressions across all these other podcasts.
28:55
Uh Why not just do your own thing at this point?
28:57
Well, I I like being where I am.
28:59
I like the team that they have at Simon & Schuster.
29:01
I like the production value of audiobooks.
29:04
Um I like Ray Porter who narrates, who's absolutely amazing.
29:08
Um I like that they have regional representatives all across the country to get these books into Target and Walmart and all that.
29:12
I like that machine that's doing that because that allows me to focus solely on writing.
29:16
Um and I don't have to worry about that other side of it.
29:20
So, it's uh I can see why someone would want to first build up a social media presence or something or an audience and then have the book knowing that a certain percentage of that audience will take the action that you want.
29:30
But that's not That wasn't my my way and that's not how I grew up and that's not how I want to wanted to adapt to the new space.
29:36
I wanted to adapt to it in a different way where I still have a publisher and there's still an art department for the cover and they still all that that So, I have that machine working there and I can solely focus on writing and then also figure out the things that maybe a large publishing company isn't so great at.
29:50
So, the social side of the house and the digital marketing side of the house and the podcasts and all of that.
29:55
So, I think it's a very good partnership as far as a business goes for from for me.
30:01
Everybody's going to have a different way.
30:03
We had this guy um on the pod and we've had him a few times.
30:05
His name is Scott Galloway.
30:07
Scott Galloway is a successful entrepreneur, but he also uh is a author and kind of a thought leader.
30:12
I don't know what you would would describe him as, but he uh he's a wonderful speaker and his new crusade right now is on young men.
30:20
And how young men are are kind of getting forgotten a bit.
30:22
Uh you know, if you look at like suicide rates, depression rates, if you look at education, like young men are getting are getting left behind a bit.
30:31
And I felt that and I remember I was going through a period in my late 20s where I had a little bit of success, but I was like I still like I I I I a young family and I was like I need I want to learn a little bit more about what it means to be a man.
30:43
And so, I went through this um this like reading like I read all these like man books, like teach me to become a man, I guess.
30:53
And so, I noticed that I would read your books, and I felt like I was being inspired to be a more high-integrity man.
30:58
And which James Reese says, "What books have you read that sort of like got you on that path of being this sort of I don't know, like teacher of young men, cuz that's kind of like what you've become a little bit."
31:13
Yeah, and it's interesting now when I go to to book signings.
31:16
Uh I said first book came out in 2018, so now somebody read that book when they were 15, 16, 17, 18.
31:19
Now they're a few years into a their time in uniform in the military or law enforcement or whatever else.
31:25
So, now I have people coming up to me and saying, "I was inspired to join the military.
31:29
I was inspired to get into law enforcement.
31:31
I was inspired to do this because of your books."
31:32
And I knew that was a possibility, but I didn't really dwell on it.
31:35
But, the last book tour or maybe the one before was the first time where that really started happening.
31:41
But, you know, it happened naturally for me.
31:43
So, I didn't like get to a certain age and say, "What book should I read in order to?"
31:48
It was just I was constantly reading as a student of warfare.
31:52
And and one book that stands out as my most gifted book, it's called Once an Eagle by Anton Myrer.
31:55
It was written in 1968, and it's historical fiction, and it follows two people from right before World War I up to Vietnam.
32:02
They don't call it Vietnam in the book, they call it something else, but that's what it is.
32:06
One of them's an officer, and one of them gets a battlefield commission on the battlefield in World War I.
32:10
And then you have the interwar years, you have World War II, and it goes, like I said, up to Vietnam.
32:15
But, the guy who's the he's a politician in uniform.
32:18
He's the He's the officer.
32:20
He's always just a little bit ahead of this guy, Sam Damon, who is who who's who's the He's like the leader of men that you would want to be as you read this book.
32:29
And so, I gift this book to people who are starting their career in the profession of arms.
32:34
There's a reason it's called the profession of arms, not the career of arms.
32:37
And I would write a letter, and I would put it in the front cover, and that's one that they could read before they started reading.
32:42
It would kind of set the tone why I'm giving them this book.
32:45
And then I would say in that letter, but there's another letter at the back, and that is sealed, and you have to work your way through this book, and it's pretty thick, so you can use it as a blunt impact weapon or as a doorstop if you need to.
32:54
So, it's dual-use technology.
32:55
And at the end, then that's my take on what you just read.
33:00
And I don't want them to read it beforehand because I don't want to pollute their reading experience with my interpretation.
33:05
So, it gives them incentive to get to the end, to get to read that last letter, and setting the tone with the first one.
33:10
So, that's my most gifted book, but it really is a is a book about leadership.
33:14
And uh and so, that's why I would give it to these to these guys, but through that context of historical fiction, so it reads like a thriller, but you're learning about history at the same time, but it's really all about leadership.
33:24
Well, you have this I mean, you had a career where you sort of you had a rite of passage.
33:31
So, you went to the military, you experienced some crazy stuff, and I imagine it's like I imagine there's some times where it's like I just grew up really fast, and now I officially feel like a man.
33:41
Um women a little bit have uh you know, they have a physical thing where it's like you're now a woman.
33:45
Men don't typically have that, at least not now.
33:48
In some cultures, they do where they're like, you know, I like to read about the Spartans, and they're like, all right, now you go off in the wilderness, and you do this thing, you come back, you're a man, you know. Yeah.
33:57
Uh the Jewish culture has a a bar mitzvah and bat mitzvah, so there's a little bit of a you're a man now, but we don't really have that in America for like most men.
34:05
And the reason why and I always felt that was lacking.
34:08
I'm like, I I don't have this like I didn't I didn't there wasn't this like beginning, middle, and end of a journey where it's like I've come out and I'm now an adult.
34:19
And so, I think that's why I like reading your stuff because it's like I'm living vicariously through the through through James Reece, and I experience this like heartache and this like evolution, and it's like I now feel weirdly more manly.
34:31
I mean, as as cringe as that sounds, but it's like you know, they say you're the average of the five people you spend with most.
34:39
I think I'm the average of like the last year's worth of reading I've done.
34:42
Do you know what I'm saying?
34:44
So, it's like I'm getting a little bit of a rite of passage a little bit through like your work, if that's if that makes sense.
34:50
Well, yes, and that's why it's so important mainly for our kids especially like who they follow now in this world.
34:55
Because you those five people you're spending the most time with how it can be virtual.
34:58
It's not that person on the playground or as you get older someone you're in a that's a mentor type relationship or in an internship or or something like that.
35:05
Um, a lot of these people are the people that they're following.
35:09
So, that's why it's so important who you follow.
35:10
Um, but yeah, for most of human history there was exactly that.
35:14
There was a rite of passage and it was there for a reason.
35:17
It was a reason the reason was that you could prove to the tribe to the community that you could add value.
35:22
Because if you didn't, then well, your tribe's not going to last for very much longer.
35:26
So, there were these trials, there were these teachings, uh, uh, mentorships, uh, and then you'd have this trial that you would go through to prove that you were a valued member of the tribe.
35:35
And then that's when we started to go away, but mostly in the the well, 19th 20th century cuz they were still we still around before that, but uh, today it is almost entirely lacking.
35:44
Which is why I think so many people feel lost because they it's not institutionalized into our society, but it's in our DNA because I think that there there's a reason that it was around from the beginning of time up until the time we got so comfortable where we didn't have to have it.
35:59
Um, and that was so that we could survive as a species so your tribe could survive.
36:03
Um, but that's why I think young men, whether they know it or not, are drawn towards typically in this country it's Marine boot camp.
36:10
Like that's the one that that most people think of, but it's also Yeah, and you see these things where it's like rich guys spending like 15 grand for a week and and a little bit of it's like dude, that's [ __ ] lame.
36:18
Uh, but on the other side I'm like I understand why you want that and uh, you got to get it how you can get it, I guess.
36:26
Yeah, they missed it when they should have done it or when uh, another culture the thousand years ago would have had it as part of this process to bring people into the tribe. But we don't have it.
36:36
So people find it later and they're like, "Oh jeez, I missed that part."
36:39
And then they start reading these books and they're like, "Oh, that's what I was missing.
36:42
That's why I felt this draw to certain age that I didn't listen to."
36:45
Like listen to that calling like the hero's journey, heed the call.
36:48
And so yeah, Marine boot camp or Army Special Forces Q course, Navy SEALs, it's called Buds training, but something that allows you to go through this trial and tribulation allows you to test yourself and then prove to the group that you're worthy of joining the ranks.
37:03
And I think if you don't do that in one way, shape or form, it doesn't have to be military, but if you don't do that, then I think that's why people feel so lost these days in general.
37:13
Yeah, look, I get those things and maybe I'll do them.
37:15
Just don't post any pictures of me online doing it cuz that would that would I would need another uh rite of passage to get through the ridicule that I would receive for posting uh We're obsessed I there's a in the comfort crisis I'm obsessed with this idea they had um it was called Misogi.
37:33
Have you ever and we've talked about a bunch here on this pod, but have you heard of Misogi?
37:35
It's basically like this idea of it stems from this Japanese guy who this Japanese myth of like he goes to like I think he goes to like hell or something to find his wife who has been kidnapped and he goes to this massive journey where he gets dirty and grimy and he's finally saves his wife, he brings her back, he washes himself off in this waterfall and he's now a new man because of the hardship that he went through.
37:58
And the Misogi it was I think his name was Misogi and so a lot of people now what they're doing is they're doing these like really hard things, physical things.
38:07
So for example, the guy who made it popular, he'd be like, "Today we're going to get our paddle board and we're going to paddle to this island that's 15 mi out and then we're going to paddle back."
38:15
And the there's basically two rules which is one, you have to only have a 50% chance of succeeding, and number two, don't die.
38:24
And so, I'm training for my Misogi right now, which is a 50-mile race, but I got like obsessed with this idea of like a Misogi of like having this like really hard concept.
38:33
Um and I would like went to this whole like phase where I was reading you and and all about all this stuff.
38:40
Have Have you ever heard of the the Misogi?
38:41
You know, I feel like I should have cuz I read Comfort Crisis, but I read it uh a couple years ago now when it first came out and uh Michael Easter on the podcast.
38:49
Um but yeah, I don't feel that anymore because I feel like I did that already.
38:54
I'm like, "Oh, this looks exhausting.
38:54
I think I feel like I've done that most of my life."
38:56
So, now it's really all about writing and having each book better than the last.
38:59
That's always my goal, which is why the last book I finished is always my favorite up to this point anyway.
39:04
I don't know if it'll always be that way, but that's how it is thus far because I do feel like I'm improving with each with each book, improving as as as an author, um as a writer, and that's what I owe owe the audience.
39:13
So, uh so yeah, but so I don't but I but I understand it.
39:16
I understand that draw to do something difficult, uh to test yourself.
39:21
I certainly understand it.
39:21
You kind of have this even though, you know, you're I would stereotype you as like a tough guy, um you have this like weird uh not weird, but you have this I don't know how you how to describe it, almost spiritual way about you where I remember you told the story about how before or maybe when you were writing the first book, you were like, "Chris Pratt is the guy.
39:42
I need to get him to do this."
39:45
And lo and behold, after a handful of years, he calls you and he was like, "Hey, your book's awesome.
39:50
I would love to turn this into a show and it maybe I'll star in it, whatever."
39:54
Do you believe in the these weird type of like spiritual manifestation type of things of like if you want it bad enough, it it things come true?
40:03
Because it seems like it's happened a few times in your life where it's kind of you've kind of called your shot when it seemed ridiculous at the time.
40:09
Yeah, I mean, it seems like but it it's more than just calling it or manifesting it, you know, sitting down and visualizing it.
40:15
It's more that's like so it's more that's when you think about something thinking about how they're going to make that a serve in tennis or a extra kick point soccer or whatever.
40:27
Like that's very tactical and you can watch videos and you can manifest it and think of it.
40:31
The strategic one and that that obviously that tactical level requires work, but the strategic level one also requires work, but it's not that one thing like that one foot placement or that one that way you're going to throw the ball whatever it might be.
40:44
Um so I think that's but if there's a spiritual side to it which I think there there's a spiritual side to everything that connects us, but uh it's more the work and it's not going to happen without putting in the work. That's the thing.
40:56
It might not happen if you put in the work.
40:58
That's that's possible, too.
40:59
But it's certainly not going to happen if you don't.
41:01
So as I'm starting to write this thing as a child of the '80s, it's very natural for me to think about who's going to star in the film, who's going to star in the TV show.
41:08
And at the time I was like I saw Chris Pratt transform from this guy who played Andy Dwyer on Parks and Rec.
41:15
Funny, a little overweight, and then I saw his transformation in Zero Dark Thirty to a SEAL.
41:18
And so I said this is a guy who needs a role like this.
41:20
He needs it for his career.
41:23
And so I'm thinking this in December of 2014.
41:24
And so I'm like Chris Pratt will play the main character, he'll play James Reece.
41:29
He needs it for his career.
41:29
And then who do I want to direct? Antoine Fuqua.
41:31
I love Antoine Fuqua's Training Day and Tears of the Sun and all this and he's the guy.
41:37
That's who that's who I want to to direct this thing.
41:39
And then I just go about writing.
41:40
I've no connection to Hollywood, no connection to publishing.
41:43
And you haven't even published the first one at this point. No.
41:45
No, I haven't published the first one.
41:46
No idea how I'm going to get it to a publisher, but I'm not thinking about any of those things.
41:50
No social media presence, no Facebook page.
41:53
your friends that you wanted this to happen? Um no.
41:55
In the SEAL teams you wanted to keep anything about writing close to the vest.
42:00
But like would you tell your wife or whatever like pillow talk you're like hey, wouldn't it be neat one day if Chris Pratt was James Reece? Yeah, yeah.
42:08
No, I told people like like my wife she's known that to be a SEAL and we've known each other since we were 18 years old.
42:13
So, she's been on this journey for the entire time.
42:17
But, but what how it manifested, I guess, is a way that I never would have expected is that I called going to call them a friend that I served with in the SEAL Teams who calls me in November of 2017, so 6 7 months before the book even comes out.
42:30
And he calls me and says, "Hey, do you remember me?"
42:32
cuz I hadn't talked to him in about 5 years.
42:33
And he said, I said, "Yes, of course I remember you."
42:37
He said, "You remember what you did for me in the SEAL Teams?" And I was like, "No."
42:40
And he said, "Well, you're the only person when I said I was getting out, leaving the Teams, you're the only person that sat me down in your office, talked about transitioning out of the military, introduced me to people in the private sector, followed up with me, said asked if you could do anything else, and I've never forgotten it, and I always wanted to thank you." And I said, "No problem. How's it going?"
42:56
And he said, "It's going great, but I heard through the grapevine you have a book coming out."
42:59
And I said, "Yeah, it's coming out in a few months.
43:01
It's called The Terminal List.
43:02
I can send you a copy if you want to check it out."
43:04
And he said, "I'd like that, but I'd like to give it to a friend of mine, also."
43:06
And I'm like, "Yeah, who who's that?"
43:08
He's like, "Well, it's my my best friend, and it's Chris Pratt."
43:10
I was like, "Oh, well, that's very convenient for me because I pictured him playing this role all these years ago."
43:16
And so, he gave it to Chris.
43:18
Chris read it in December of 2017, and then he called me the first week in 2018 and wanted to option it.
43:21
At the same time, another friend, unbeknownst to me, had given a copy to Antoine Fuqua.
43:27
They'd met at a speaking event, and he gave a copy to Antoine Fuqua.
43:30
Antoine read it, and he wanted to option it.
43:32
And Chris and Antoine knew each other from Magnificent Seven, so then they called and and worked it out.
43:37
Now, we have The Terminal List on Amazon Prime.
43:40
How's that feel to be not a nobody, but just a guy, just a guy making these ridiculous predictions and they're they come true?
43:48
Yeah, well, I mean, it wouldn't have happened if, obviously, if I hadn't So, I always really cared about people in the Teams, and my focus was always on on the guys and helping them whether they're staying in or getting out.
44:00
And I did notice that a lot of other people, especially officers, didn't do that if you said you were getting out.
44:06
They only cared about you if you were in the SEAL Teams.
44:08
And that just wasn't wasn't me.
44:11
Um so if I hadn't helped Jared out, and at the time I didn't think anything would ever come back around, that wasn't the reason I did it, obviously. Um but it did.
44:17
Came came back around, and now that I'm flying out to Budapest in about a week to go film out there.
44:21
They're on set right now.
44:23
Jared's a writer and a producer and an actor and a technical advisor on set right now.
44:27
Jared Shaw who gave Chris the book.
44:30
And and this is the second season, and we have another one coming up here with the second book with with Chris in it.
44:36
It's should start filming in 2025.
44:37
You never know until it's actually all completed and ready and actually up there on the screens, but so I try to manage those expectations.
44:43
But um yeah, so now we're off to the races and then there's these other Hollywood projects and multiple books and now the non-fiction and I have a have a strategic plan that's that I've written out just by being a a student of all this my whole life, but not with the intent of being a student, more so just like I said from the fan perspective.
45:01
But I have a strategic plan with all these things that I want to build because essentially those goals that I that I wanted was serve my country in uniform as a SEAL, do the best job I could, be the best leader, be the best operator I possibly could, then write a novel, have it be a number one New York Times bestseller, and get it up on the screen.
45:14
So those things are done, and now it's just by doing all those things better and continuing to grow in a way that's real and authentic and adds value to people's lives and allows me to do what I love to do, and then also allows me to hit my my my mission.
45:26
So my mission is taking care of my family, my passion is writing.
45:29
I wanted to combine those things for purpose going forward as I left the SEAL Teams because I saw so many people not know what they wanted to do or think that they knew and then all of a sudden step into it and realize this wasn't really what they wanted after all.
45:41
Do you think you have you hit the, you know, I sold my company my first company when I was 31, and that's where I hit that's where I hit the financial where it was like on paper I never need to work again because my income from my stock portfolio can pay for a really great life forever.
45:59
Of course, I still want to work forever because I I enjoy it.
46:01
Have you been able to cross that threshold to where financially you're like, I can breathe because I you know, as a working for the government, you're you're not rolling in it, but I imagine you are now.
46:15
Like have you have you been able to like cross that threshold? Yeah, not yet.
46:18
Not yet, but I'm I'm on the on the cusp, but not not quite there yet.
46:20
And getting closer, but a lot of this has been invested back in.
46:25
So, I think a lot of people probably would have held on and not done boxes when you can't afford it.
46:31
Put it all on your credit card early on like those boxes. what you were doing?
46:33
Those boxes were Everything.
46:36
So, it's everything's going back in.
46:37
Like how do I how do I get this podcast going?
46:39
How do I do a video for this book that looks like a movie that's better than any author has ever made before to promote a book. Okay, how do I do that?
46:48
Well, I invest cuz it cost money to do that.
46:52
So, I invested a lot back in to grow.
46:54
You can't get the publisher to pay for that?
46:56
No, but I think people think that the publisher pays for these things.
46:58
I would have thought that.
46:58
Yeah, and I think some other people now cuz now I see other authors doing something similar and I I've Like I got I got something from Meateater the other day.
47:06
You talked about those and it came from the publisher. From from Meateater.
47:09
He has a new He has a new He has a new cookbook out and it came a couple days ago.
47:12
It's on I'm going to be on my Father's Day gear guide just to you know, do my part and be a you know, help them out a tiny bit.
47:19
But it came from certainly came from the publisher.
47:21
So, I think maybe other publishers also think my publisher pays for these things, but it's really just me out of pocket as a business.
47:27
My hope for you and this probably doesn't align with your wants, so I don't know if it's going to happen.
47:33
But what I want as a fan is I want to see Jack Carr become the new Meateater.
47:39
I want to see like a lifestyle media company all around your stick.
47:45
And I know I I told you about Chernin.
47:47
So, Chernin company Chernin is a company that invests in Meateater or things like it.
47:51
So, you know, brands that have a strong affinity with different lifestyles and then they eventually make more content and sell stuff and a whole hopefully and they've done it a bunch they create really big businesses that are awesome for you as an owner because you make money but also awesome as me as a consumer because now I have more James Reese Terminal List Jack Carr stuff in my life.
48:14
That's my hope for you is that you that one day you take that path because I am being selfish but it would be cool for you as well maybe if it aligns with your values. Thank you.
48:23
Yeah, as long as there's a way to do it where it still remains authentic and and real to that that person who's trusting me with their time or their and and money then then yeah.
48:32
So I think it's it's things are going in that direction and that's certainly a possibility. Last question.
48:37
Which books that or resources that are a little bit less known that helped you that taught you most about the storytelling or creative process that I can go and read?
48:48
Yeah, so those those for sure the one on Stephen King on writing series of books by Steven Pressfield that all really talk about same thing we're going into different nuances as far as overcoming resistance doing the work putting in the time becoming a professional.
49:01
So those ones another one's called The Successful Novelist by David Morrell who created Rambo with First Blood back in 1972.
49:09
There's that one and then the heroes the heroes journey through Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell and that one right there influenced Star Wars and once you read that book or watch a series of interviews that he did on PBS back in 1988 with Bill Moyers called The Power of Myth you realize how similar these stories are across
49:29
cultures and why they resonated from the beginning of time because some of these stories these myths were really created to pass on lessons lessons of the hunt lessons of warfare so the next generation doesn't have to learn those same lessons in blood and that tribe that community can grow and not just survive hopefully but thrive. You're the man. I am I appreciate you You're the man.
49:46
I am I appreciate you doing this.
49:48
You um your books have not only been fun but they've changed me a little bit as a kind of as a man, as a husband, as a father, as a citizen of America.
49:57
Uh you've done amazing stuff and I I wish nothing but amazing success for you and your family.
50:04
So, thank you for all this. This is awesome.
50:05
Oh man, I appreciate that and then thank you for the podcast.
50:08
I'm so glad I discovered it because I'm going to be taking taking notes going forward on how to to to scale things and how to do things a little better cuz no matter what I'm doing in life, I always want to do it a little better the next time.
50:18
I always want to adapt and be more effective and efficient with what I'm doing.
50:21
So, thank you for what you do as well.
50:23
I appreciate you and that's the pod.