0:00
You have the mastery of like a 17th century master and yet you're doing all of these incredibly really fun and very meta pieces.
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Well, I'm in charge as the artist.
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I'm in control of this narrative.
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Like, I can make what I want happen by virtue of visuals.
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I'm going to make a painting.
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It's going to be three Jews walking to a bar.
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They're actually at the museum looking at the painting the same way that I was with the Corbu.
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The girls stood in front of me.
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This is why I like the idea of a painting in a painting.
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I thought, "Holy crap, I'm on to something here."
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Today's guest paints like a 17th century old master who got dropped into a Ramon's concert with obsessive, hyperreal technique and a very unserious sense of humor.
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For years, he was the art world's self-described Rodney Dangerfield.
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Please enjoy my conversation with artist Mark Dennis.
1:00
Mark, you didn't hear the introduction that I gave you, but I got to tell you, it was maybe the most fun one I have done in a really long time.
1:09
Please, let's start with the forest fire and go from there.
1:15
>> Well, thank you for the introduction.
1:16
Even though I haven't heard it yet, I'm sure it's uh >> it's glowing. >> Glowing. Yeah. Okay. So, a forest fire. Where the hell?
1:23
I was in second grade, >> seven years old, >> living in Sharon.
1:28
Well, how do you know you didn't flunk?
1:30
I could have been eight, you know.
1:31
See, you you know, okay, I was seven.
1:35
Think about this for a minute.
1:37
Seveny old >> very good research team.
1:38
And they called that out >> for Hanukkah.
1:41
The previous I never know.
1:43
The problem with the Jews is that we have Hanukkah.
1:44
It's different every year.
1:46
So, I'm going to digress a little bit and talk about this. >> Sure.
1:49
I I when I was young, I wanted to start a revolt and say we should have Hanukkah on one day every year so that we would never forget when it's happening so we could plan, you know, even as little kids.
1:57
But anyway, so I had received a magnifying glass for the Hanukkah and I believe it was December, although you know, sometimes Hanukkah is late November. Okay.
2:04
So, >> uh I got a magnifying glass for Hanukkah.
2:09
Hanukkah. And you know come summertime or late summer it was uh time to use it because the sun if I don't think people are aware of this but the sun you know I'm not sure if it's the exact revolution or what's happening but the position of the sun at a certain time of day is it just speaking of glowing it
2:27
just lights up the woods and I was one of those kids who went into the woods all the time as a regular thing I just loved going through the woods turning over rocks looking at things breaking branches you know so this is like maybe Now, I would say late September and I'm on my usual path and I'm in the woods with this guy. Can I say his name? Can I say his name?
2:49
I don't even know if he's dead. I mean, we're alive.
2:50
Well, his first name is Randy.
2:52
He lived down the street.
2:52
He was kind of a he wasn't as dare daring as I was, but but he he kind of went along and he was a nice companion because he would kind of like if he didn't do as I said, he would do as I do and he would join me.
3:06
So, and I was a very curious, restless kid. we out of five boys.
3:08
So, I'm in the woods and I have my magnifying glass and I'm thinking, you know, if I position this magnifying glass just right with the sun's rays, I could burn a hole in a leaf, it's time I try this, you know. Is this camera on? So, it's time I try it.
3:28
And I waited and you know, the sun lines up.
3:33
I mean, I felt like, you know, like I felt both like Superman and Lex Luthther all at once.
3:39
And the light, the ray of light just hits that magnifying glass, you know, like I could hear angels singing and all of a sudden the leaf starts morphing into this, it's this little hole, this little pinhole of darkness, and then all of a sudden it spread and then the leaf went and it was gone.
3:57
I'm thinking, [ __ ] that. Oh, that is wicked cool.
4:05
I wonder what two leaves would do. Maybe even three.
4:08
I don't have time to count them.
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I'm going to put a big pile.
4:09
What the I mean, why waste time?
4:11
Let's see what's going on here.
4:16
>> Sure enough, the leaves caught fire and it spread.
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You know that term, oh, it spreads like wildfire. Dude, I know.
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spreads like wildfire. Dude, I know. I was there and I [ __ ] a turtle when this part of the forest that I was standing in with my buddy Randy just went up the te the trees caught and I realized you know it was the time of year I mean it
4:39
was clearly the leaves were all dry and they were everything was changing color very slow and I don't know I got really scared and I started to run because I had to get past the fire to get on the trail to get out but it was on fire and I'm thinking I got I can't go deeper into the woods. I got to get back to the
4:55
I got to get back to the house.
4:57
And I'm like maybe 100 yards in, you know, so which is far enough where you couldn't see the house, but I knew what direction.
5:03
So I had to kind of like run through the leaves.
5:04
Randy screaming, you know, we're going to die. We're going to die. Shut up. Follow me.
5:07
You know, so I made it like some weird uh secudous pathway back out to the edge of my lawn and ran into the house.
5:14
Just as I opened that door, I could see my mom in the window. Remember five boys?
5:18
She's probably doing something in the sink.
5:21
I don't know what cleaning a chicken or something, but she looked out at me and just dropped whatever she had and then saw me come in the side door.
5:29
Randy ran home and the whole all and I turned around because I saw her face and she was like just freaking out at something and I turned around thinking the fire was probably going to go out on its own, but the freaking woods were all lit.
5:42
I mean, what it's like I don't know like a I don't know like how people always say, "Oh, it's like a movie."
5:49
But this was absolutely like a movie.
5:50
And I didn't know what to do.
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But I ran in the house and I ran right past her in the kitchen and I said, "Call the fire department."
6:00
And I ran upstairs in my room and hid under my bed. Now I'm 7 years old.
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I I you know, I was a cool little kid.
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I was curious, but I think I really screwed up.
6:09
So the fire department came, four engines came up on our lawns, drove, you know, you know that sound, you're a mere.
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So, I'm under my bed thinking, "Oh my god, am I in trouble?"
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Or maybe they don't know.
6:20
Maybe they maybe they'll just put it out and then not ask any questions. Well, sure enough, man. You ready for this? I'll never forget this.
6:28
And I always paint about my childhood memories, but I've never really painted about this.
6:31
I've painted about the experience of knowing that I displaced animals.
6:34
that I've painted about, but I've never painted about the experience of looking out under my bed and seeing these really sloppy, dirty, muddy, wet boots of the firefighter who my mother let in.
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And I'm looking out and he goes, "Mark, I'm up here.
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Your mother told me, this is, you know, Sharon, Massachusetts, so they all say Mark."
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So he said, "Mark, your mother sent me upstairs.
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Please come out from under your bed."
7:01
>> And I said, "Am I in trouble?"
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He goes, "Yeah, a little bit."
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And I'm So my dad wasn't home. He was working.
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My mom evidently stayed in the kitchen.
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I don't know, maybe they just all watched, you know, it was such must must have been a hell of a spectacle.
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I I wish I would had watched it, but I was like, you know, a little nervous.
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So I get out and I sit on the bed with this guy and he said, you know, just tell me what happened.
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I explained to him and then he said, "Well, you know, I know you feel bad.
7:24
You should never play with magnifying glasses with dry leaves.
7:25
You know, you should never really go into the woods with matches.
7:29
You know, this is really bad."
7:30
And my mother told me, and this is where it killed me, that you love animals. Yeah. Right. >> Yeah.
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>> So he said, "And I just want to let you know that I'm sure some animals died and have been displaced from their homes." >> Yeah, right. What?
7:52
But it hit hard like it and I never forgot that.
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So I have never lit a forest fire since.
7:58
>> Well, well, that's good.
8:00
>> But But I did learn to smoke when I went to uh University of Texas at Austin.
8:02
I learned how to, you know, smoke, cook like true barbecue. >> Yeah.
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And >> it always brings back childhood memories of the forest fire. I deal with it.
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>> Are you afraid of fire now? >> No, >> not at all. >> No.
8:13
I have a fire pit in my yard.
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I light it up almost every day. We have blankets. We sit around the fire.
8:18
>> Well, were were you always fascinated by fire?
8:21
>> Well, I think we all are. >> Yeah.
8:22
>> I mean, humans evolved through by virtue of harnessing fire. Yeah.
8:28
See, now you're over my head of understanding what they could do with fire.
8:32
You know, think about this.
8:32
If you were all right, I mean, I don't know how many species of different hominids there are. I'm assuming 40.
8:38
I don't know, like Neanthal, Magnon, Denisin.
8:40
So, they lived in caves mostly because they had to have shelter.
8:45
Well, what kept animals from entering the front of that cave?
8:50
They had to have, you know, um what's centuries? Yeah.
8:53
They had to have people who didn't get sleep, who watched, you know, some kind of weird bear or whatever, some big snake from getting in and, you know, taking a baby.
9:04
But, but when they had fire, they could build.
9:08
Think about think about how incredible fire was for early hominids, right? Okay.
9:12
I shouldn't say early homminids because it was sort of harnessed during the time of Neanderthalss, but but after that, they realized, oh my god, I can cook, right? So, I love fire.
9:22
Fire is really interesting because you know you see all the debates right now today about this technology or that technology or all of that kind of stuff. We should ban it.
9:33
No, we should do it really fast.
9:33
Um and the fact is all technology and fire is a [ __ ] >> Wait, ban what?
9:40
What are you talking about?
9:42
>> Well, like the current debates going on about AI, about all of that kind of stuff, right?
9:47
And one of the things that I think about all of our innovations, like right now, if we didn't invent fire, well, we wouldn't be sitting here because the point about fire is when you cook your food, guess what happens? Brain development.
10:05
>> Prior to cooking food, the prefrontal cortex, which is the executive function of the brain, wasn't there. Literally was not there.
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And so the ability for us to cook our food is what created, you know, homo sapiens, sapien.
10:19
I love the way the scientists >> keep going, man. I like it. Yeah, I love this.
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This is what I listen to mostly on podcasts when I'm painting.
10:26
>> And and so instead of saying, "Ooh, this is really dangerous." What do we do?
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We create fire departments, fire alarms, fire trucks, firemen who can guilt you when you're seven and tell you you've just displaced a lot of animals, right?
10:42
So, we always figure out a way to use the technology.
10:44
But I want to segue to your art because I I I got to tell you, our uh the person we work with, Ariel uh Marowitz, showed us your art and like >> she's great. >> So are you.
11:00
We we are right now looking at uh acquiring some of your stuff.
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Let's talk a little bit about it because you I love your attitude.
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you you've always or you don't anymore, but you used to call yourself the Rodney Dangerfield of the art world. And which Yeah, you did.
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And I love Rodney number one. I think he's hysterical.
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>> And you are also hysterical.
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Like >> putting putting hetic Jews in front of the Manet. Okay.
11:32
>> Where'd you get the idea?
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I It's a great painting, by the way.
11:35
Because the other thing for everyone listening and watching, at least to my eye, you have the mastery of like a 17th century master and yet you're doing all of these incredibly really fun and very meta pieces. Talk to me about it.
11:52
>> Well, first of all, thank you, but you're too kind. 17th century master.
11:57
You know, I always I often thought about having a drink with Karavajio or hanging out with Vermeier Rembrandt and mostly Basquez, you know, because I could speak Spanish.
12:04
So, I'm I'm I'm into the meta narrative.
12:07
Even as a kid, I will tell you this, if I may, itarkens back when I watched Roadrunner.
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You know, Mimi >> loved >> WY E Coyote.
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Even back in the day, I didn't know he had a name. >> Wy, right?
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W I L E >> Y >> E E period.
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Coyote, which I don't think any I mean, who knows that? I don't know.
12:27
>> He would paint, you know, this tunnel in the side of the freaking Right.
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You know what I'm talking about?
12:33
and the B and Okay, so I'm not going to go any further cuz I think everybody knows what I'm talking about.
12:39
But that to me blew my mind as a kid and I had talent as a kid.
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Like I could draw pretty well.
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I I I always worked at my sketches. I always drew things.
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But every time I watched that cartoon, I thought, "What is going on here?" Like what?
12:52
Because there was so much art.
12:54
There was art within art.
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It was a cartoon within a cartoon.
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It was a narrative within a narrative. Totally. And that's what got me. >> Nested narratives. Fast forward.
13:01
Fast forward through art school.
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I really wanted to learn how to paint like an old master.
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That was my initial I mean Chardan was really my initial love for learning how to paint and Monae like I really loved impressionism.
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But I knew I wanted to get more realistic with each with each attempt.
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So I went on from Shardan to looking at Garajio and Velasquez and mostly Tishon who I think is the greatest painter that ever lived.
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I don't think that's even a debate anymore.
13:28
So, fast forward, you know, when I'm making art as a professional, I'm thinking about my childhood.
13:33
I'm thinking about that tunnel that was painted in the side of the rock where obviously, you know, the road runner would go through it and then the coyote would run to it and he'd slap against and and you're thinking, okay, well, I'm in charge as the artist.
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I'm in control of this narrative.
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Like, I can make what I want happen by virtue of visuals.
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And I thought, wow, this is really what art's about.
13:55
like not just mimicking like hanging up a dead bird in my studio, which is what I did almost every day.
14:00
I painted dead animals, dead birds. I would find them.
14:03
Even here in the ground in lower Manhattan, I found a woodcock.
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If anybody doesn't know, there's a certain time of year where the woodcocks fly into the tall buildings in downtown Manhattan and then drop to the street.
14:13
They're all over the sidewalk.
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I mean, maybe like three a day you could find them early in the morning because then, you know, the people come out and pick them up.
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But >> I would hang them up in my studio and I would draw them.
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But I wanted to really create paintings that had this overall impact.
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And I thought, how am I going to do this? Boom.
14:26
2005, the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
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I mean, I had been painting up to them up to that point, but I was teaching, you know, I was a college professor.
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I wasn't really focused on my art career as a professional.
14:37
It certainly wasn't my only income, and I didn't want it to be, but you know, I was unsure.
14:40
2005, I went to see the Corb Retrospective at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
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Well, there's a painting by Gustav Corb which is of a woman.
14:55
It's called The Origin of the World.
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It's the lower half of some woman.
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Now, they've released her identity.
14:59
Back in the day, I didn't know who it was.
15:01
>> I have seen it, >> right?
15:02
And it's called The Origin of the World.
15:03
I don't know how to say Loren Dund, you know, I have to be French Canadian to know how to pronounce that, but yeah.
15:07
So, >> I knew it was at the show, but it was in a sort of a private room.
15:12
If you remember, it was like a they had this separate room built just for that because it was apparently too much for some people, right?
15:21
>> And there was a little notification said if you want to enter, you know, enter >> at your own risk. >> Yeah.
15:26
Or knowing that there's a painting that was once >> commissioned by Oh my.
15:32
>> Well, you're supposed to you're supposed to follow up with that with what's Okay.
15:36
You know, lines, ties, my favorite movie, but we won't go there. Okay.
15:38
So, I go into this room and, you know, there's a lot of people in it.
15:43
It's pretty crowded, you know, and I didn't realize that this painting was commissioned by this Turkish uh businessman who actually was one of the first people to create these weird uh, you know, these viewing shows where you put see women dancing and stuff.
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And so, I walk in and I'm like waiting my turn to look at it.
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It's literally 5t from me on a wall and the dark the wall was painted dark. The room was dimly lit.
16:04
It was really kind of amazing.
16:06
But it was supposed to be the way it was in the man's house who commissioned the piece.
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It was supposed to be it was a red wall. It was dimly lit.
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And just as I was my turn to stand in front of it, cuz people were very polite.
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They would look and they'd move on and they realized that there was a person.
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And just as I stood in front of it, she must have been 19, long brown hair.
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I I know I know she saw me, but God bless the teenage mindset.
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Like you just she was so excited.
16:32
She stood right in front of me and blocked. She was my corb blocker.
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She blocked the corbet just as And I thought, "Wow, now this is a meta narrative.
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This is I'm looking at a woman who has no head, but yet there's a woman in front of me and all I see is her head.
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And I'm here to experience what she wants to experience and yet she was so in her own little world.
16:59
I'm in my world, but her my her world is now my world. That's all meta to me.
17:03
It's all my relationship with that piece.
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And I thought, this is what I'm gonna paint about from now on.
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>> So, I went back to the studio.
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She did move eventually and I saw the painting.
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You know, it's a good painting, but it's not his best.
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But nevertheless, I went back >> and and and for listeners and viewers who don't know the subject of the painting, describe the painting.
17:23
Well, it's the lower half of a naked woman who I imagine and I'm again, you know, I mean, I've read about it, but I'm not very good at remembering a lot about historical information, but it's evidently they found the upper half recently, maybe seven years ago or something.
17:39
They found her identity, and it was, I think, a woman he hung out with.
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I don't I don't really know, but nevertheless, it's a woman >> who he had painted >> the lower half with her legs spread.
17:48
>> the lower half with her legs spread. So you see the vagina and you know the pubic hair you see the origin of the world which is you know naturally about birth and I thought well this is really fascinating and it's really unique and
18:00
it's like it's like almost corbe and mcgreet meet >> in this painting which is even more >> I yes I agree >> because it plays with what it plays with the this age-old >> inquiry as to what is our relationship to art >> not just as an artist but as a viewer So I thought we are all fenurs, right? I
18:20
I learned that fancy word by reading a book about manet and he was a fier like someone who notices details.
18:27
Someone who will recognize the white cuff.
18:29
You have to admit, let me I digress.
18:31
So you have to reel me in here.
18:33
But you know, I don't care anymore.
18:37
>> When I wear a black suit and I wear an Ugo boss suit, right, because it's a [ __ ] you to Hitler, you know, because of Ugo Boss being the young >> biggest rebrand in history. >> Yes.
18:46
>> They made all the German uniforms. >> Okay. Okay. So, you want So, okay. So, thank you.
18:50
But when I wear that black suit and I see the little white cuff of the shirt sticking out, there's something that goes through me like, wow, you know, I feel good.
18:58
There's something about it.
19:01
I don't know what it is, but only when I see it on myself.
19:04
And then when I see it maybe on someone else, but you know, where it glist with a white cuff sticking out of a black sleeve glistens against like a a beautiful silver watch like that to me gets me.
19:14
And this is what Manet was.
19:14
So, I like the idea that I was looking at details and trying to give the viewer more details.
19:22
So, I'm in my studio and I'm painting a series of women looking at the Corb. I did one.
19:28
I couldn't get through the others.
19:31
I did one painting of a Corb.
19:33
It went to a really great collection on the Upper East Side.
19:37
He was very happy about it.
19:37
In fact, he's creating a catalog uh Glenn Ferman and it's in the catalog.
19:45
of his collection and and I called it the end of the world because there's a woman's head blocking the vagina.
19:49
It's my exact experience. The end of the world.
19:54
And I thought, "Holy crap, I'm on to something here."
19:57
[ __ ] Rodney Dangerfield comes into the playing field. You get what I'm saying?
20:02
Like my sense of humor I could be I could be funny sometimes.
20:05
My sense of humor came into my high voltage technique because I work really hard at my technique >> and I don't want it to be boring.
20:12
I don't want it to be just about technique.
20:14
I want it to be about the situation, about the experience.
20:17
So, it's the end of the world, but it's something I experience.
20:20
So, it's that with technique.
20:22
And I thought, wow, I got to push this.
20:24
I'm going to go with this, right?
20:25
So, what paintings deal with the meta narrative? Well, there's so many.
20:30
But then I began to think, wow, what paintings are kind of funny or what how can I use a painting that could be funny?
20:36
Like, what is the oldest joke in the world?
20:38
And I learned it was actually a dog walks into a bar. Really? >> Yeah. Look it up. Anybody look it up. Wikipedia.
20:45
God bless whoever created Wikipedia because there's somebody who edits this particular page on this joke that is become my favorite.
20:52
These are my favorite people. Well, besides my kids.
20:57
There's apparently this goes so far back to like the Assyrian period where someone had carved on a tablet. >> Cunia form. >> Yeah. Thank you. Cunapform. Wow. Look at you. I'm done here. Okay.
21:09
Can we Can I go home now? No.
21:11
How can I follow up on that? Qia form. >> You see those guys?
21:14
Do you know my life camera? They're armed. >> I don't see them. I feel them.
21:20
>> Oh, I like that you said they're armed. How do you know? >> I am too. Okay.
21:23
So, >> we were going for balance. We We knew. >> Well, okay.
21:28
We'll talk about this because I strive for B.
21:30
This is This is all I talk about.
21:31
People are like probably sick of me talking about striving for balance. Seek peace. Just Okay.
21:38
So, I'm looking I'm reading this page in form. Cutuniform. >> Cunia form. >> Cunia form. Thank you. You know all my life.
21:43
I never knew how to pronounce it. Here I am learning. So I'm done.
21:44
I mean I could be we could be done now and I'm good because I learned something.
21:47
So um Cunia form that about a dog walking into a bar because dogs were not allowed in bars or whatever the place might be. A tea house.
21:57
I don't really know >> right.
21:58
I don't remember what I read, but it's definitely online.
22:02
>> Do you remember the joke? >> Dog walks into a bar. It ends right there. >> It just ends.
22:05
>> There's nothing even to it.
22:05
And that's funny in and of itself because dogs are not supposed to walk into bars. That's right.
22:11
>> But it's apparently, you know, all you know, carved in kuna form.
22:15
>> You know how long it took?
22:16
>> Oh, I'm going to say kuna form all day.
22:17
>> He got too tired to do the punchline. >> I don't know.
22:20
But apparently it was because Okay, you can read it up. You'll see.
22:23
And then we'll have a beer later.
22:24
But then I thought, okay, so what is the joke that we all know it, you know, and it evolved throughout history and it became like I think it was like a rabbi y >> and a minister or a priest or a Buddhist. I don't know.
22:35
Like, you know, it could be any three things. >> Yeah. >> Why three? I don't know. I don't question it. It's there. I liked it. Three was enough. >> Mhm.
22:44
>> So, I thought what's going to happen here, you know? Wow.
22:49
And then I began to think about the nature of identity politics, >> right?
22:53
>> How do you know a Jew made a painting? You really don't.
22:59
>> Because all my life I heard one thing all [ __ ] from Sharon, Newtonville, [ __ ] Danvers, everybody's like, "You don't look Jewish."
23:07
And I'm thinking, what is this?
23:07
You know, the protocols of the elders of Zion in seventh grade.
23:12
Like, how do you know what a Jew looks like? What do you think?
23:15
We all have pais and black hats.
23:17
And I'm thinking, I didn't know what the I was a Jew. I was born a Jew. I'm a Jew.
23:21
I don't know what a Jew look.
23:21
I mean, we there's a lot of Jews.
23:22
I don't know how they look.
23:23
And I don't know if But I thought, wow, I got to really go with the stereotype here. I'm going to go for it.
23:29
I'm going to make a painting. Forget the priest. Forget the minister. Forget the Buddhist.
23:33
You get the person who carves cunia forms.
23:35
I'm going to Dude, it's going to be three Jews walking into a bar.
23:38
I'm not going to call it a Jew and a Jew and a Jew.
23:39
Three Jews get right to the punch and they're walking into a bar.
23:44
What's the most famous bar painting in the history of the world >> easily? I can't say it French. La. >> Oh my god.
23:53
See, I saw Mulan Rouge 14 times in my daughter and now I know how to speak French.
23:57
So that painting by Manet Edward Manet. >> Yeah.
24:01
greatest bar painting in the history of the world really bizarre that we don't know if it's a mirror.
24:06
Now I know it's not a mirror, but I always thought it was a mirror and that she was looking out at us and we were projecting ourselves and she was looking at the guy behind her with a top hat, which oddly enough matches the fedoras of the kasids, >> the satir bobbo love, whatever faction they're from, whatever sect they're from, you know, there's many.
24:23
>> We won't get into that right now.
24:23
But I thought, okay, how do I deal with this? Do I have them wear?
24:31
Do I have them wear the fedoras, the black hats, black coats?
24:33
Well, you know, I did a lot of history.
24:35
I had 27 cousins that were died during the war.
24:37
Most were murdered in Berkanau, which is Avitz 2.
24:42
And then seven froze to death as partisan fighters in the woods in and around Poland.
24:45
And I thought, well, there's that the the heroic element of my ancestry.
24:54
And then there's the fact that I'm a secular Jew, observant nevertheless, but my dad was raised in a yeshiva in Cuba in Havana.
25:04
My Bobby and Zadei came from aetalin outside Kev called Droboich.
25:07
They were pretty orthodox.
25:10
My mother's side of the family, you know, like Jewish southeast of Boston, you know, it's like Whitey Bulier would not have messed with them. My mother was tough.
25:19
Grew up, you know, grew up in Roxbury, man. Go visit. And she was secular.
25:24
Met my dad when he escaped Cuba from Castro. Came to Nantascet Beach. Met my mom. They hit it off.
25:32
They got married in three months. you know, God bless him.
25:33
That will not happen today.
25:35
So, I thought I have to put together all these elements of my ancestral heritage being a Jew being funny because I am funny.
25:46
But, you know, the Jews after the Holocaust turned to humor.
25:48
And if no one knows that, they know it now because it is absolute history.
25:54
And that's the reason why the Catskills became what the Catskills were.
25:58
And the place called the Neville. There's so many.
26:00
And this is where they all, you know, came out of.
26:04
And so they all began to immigrate and they all began to make things funny because humor is what we could turn to. >> All right.
26:11
Well, I think today, you know, they wasn't a Jew that said it.
26:14
Somebody must have said it.
26:14
Laughter is the greatest medicine or laughter is the best medicine.
26:17
It must go back to someone who carved cunia form.
26:18
Maybe it says it in this tablet.
26:20
You know, laughter is, you know, [ __ ] the dogs is the best.
26:25
So I thought I'm going to make a grand painting.
26:28
I'm going to make a grand entry into identity politics and I'm going to say, "Hey, I'm a Jew. I'm here. Check it out. I'm funny. I can paint.
26:36
I deal with meta narratives.
26:36
This is my tunnel painting that the coyote ran into and the road runner ran through." So, I painted.
26:42
Three Jews walk into a bar.
26:44
They're actually at the museum looking at the painting the same way that I was with the Corbu.
26:48
The girls stood in front of me and my three Jews are wearing Burberry jackets. >> Yeah.
26:56
>> Or some other weird hip-hop coat. >> Yes.
26:58
You know, like they're they're like, "Yeah, we got some money. We're going to spend it.
27:01
We got some leather jackets."
27:03
Like they're not beckishes.
27:04
They're not wearing the kidic wear.
27:06
They're not wearing the Lubavich or the the the the Satmer clothing.
27:08
They're wearing Burberry.
27:11
It's a combination of secular and hared outfits, costumes, whatever the case might be. And the hats vary.
27:18
And you know, Styles are naturally worn.
27:21
It's like probably I don't know.
27:24
Oh man, I know that my kidic uh studio assistant is going to get upset with me because I'm getting this wrong, but I think there's 10 maybe 10 styles of of Strimel.
27:33
Strimml is the furlined hat.
27:36
It's usually, you know, it could be man, it could be beaver, it could be fake fur, could you know, depending upon who's buying, how they feel, and what they want to how they want to deal with it.
27:44
But, you know, it's not naturally worn on high holidays by married men.
27:48
You know, being divorced, I figured, you know, I can't wear it.
27:50
But then I learned as a co-en and from a certain sect of myidic background unmarried men could wear their styles.
27:59
So I thought wow man I'm learning.
28:01
So so I it all became compounded in my in those series of paintings called three Jews walk into a bar.
28:09
We had a show at a hug from the art world Adam Cohen uh and then you know and then after that it was like a it was a huge hit.
28:16
it was a huge hit. I mean I I mean sales aside it was like people began to realize oh my god like yeah now so you know it's like a Jew made this painting of being Jewish but yet also being funny which is something we all share and I wanted them to be surrogates for anyone's experience but going back to my
28:35
experience with the corb like that could have been anyone >> why she stood in front of me but maybe she maybe other people stood in front of other people but th those other people who were st who had someone stand in front of them were not artist like maybe they didn't have maybe they never watched Roadrunner when they were kids. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Okay, I'm done.
28:53
>> I am so That's so exhausting talking about that.
28:55
I did not expect you to I didn't know what the hell we were going to talk about.
28:58
I didn't know you were going to ask me.
28:59
>> We talk about you and your work.
29:03
But you you also had kind of an odd relationship with the fancy art world here in New York, meaning that you and I think it's really the origin of calling yourself the Rodney Dangerfield, which is also meta, right?
29:18
Because Rodney gets no respect and yet he is so [ __ ] funny.
29:24
He's Johnny Carson loves the guy.
29:26
Has him on the Tonight Show like every other week. >> Yeah. Him and Don Rickles.
29:30
>> Him and Don Rickles, right?
29:33
And and then that changed. Talk about that.
29:36
Talk about how the >> what the Tonight Show. >> No.
29:41
>> When were you on the Tonight Show?
29:42
>> Jay Leno and who's doing it now? What's his name? >> No idea.
29:45
>> I don't know his name. >> Yeah.
29:47
>> Who's on >> Legacy Media? Down bad. >> So, wait.
29:49
So, we're talking about >> Jewish comedians. >> No, no, no, no.
29:53
I'm talking about you and your work as an artist and and suddenly like when I'm going through it I literally smile and or laugh but you also are an amazing artist right and and by that I mean I love the way you build the humor into a serious piece of art right >> okay so before I forget it's in my brain and it's in response to the frontal cortex This this lobe is pounding >> going back there.
30:26
>> Talk about it or you're going to forget about it.
30:27
That's exactly how I live if I don't get it out.
30:29
So, I'm going to get it out.
30:30
So, pardon me for >> interrupting, interjecting, whatever. It's not a TV show. Pardon the interruption. Okay. Sports sports radio.
30:38
So, I have to say this before I forget. I'm not always funny. >> No, I know.
30:44
>> I'm I have a very serious side. >> Yeah.
30:46
>> And I'm I know that sounded defensive. Let me try it again.
30:48
You know, I'm really not that funny.
30:50
I I I mean humor is great.
30:52
I love to I I love to laugh.
30:52
I like to make I mean I'd rather make people laugh than me laugh.
30:55
I rarely laugh actually but I watch curb your enthusiasm and I might laugh a little bit but I really don't laugh out loud like people who ga God bless them. I wish I could crack up.
31:05
It's I don't crack up but I do smile. I do laugh.
31:06
I do chuckle and I like that in my work because that's who I am.
31:10
I mean I'm making I'm making the paintings.
31:12
I mean they my personality is going to come out but there's a very intense serious sort of Okay. Okay.
31:22
When I taught college, think about this.
31:24
You know how we get nicknames in sixth grade, fifth grade, you know, because every every kid's got to like call you.
31:29
Mine was like Mach Pox the car in the yard in the dock. What? Who cares?
31:32
It's not I don't I don't care. Like there was nothing.
31:36
But you know, that's all they had. >> Yeah.
31:38
>> I get to I'm teaching college. >> Lack of creativity.
31:42
>> Well, you know, they're fifth graders.
31:43
So, I'm teaching college and one of my students says, "You're the dark menace."
31:53
>> That's a really good nickname.
31:55
>> Wh why why >> Oh, just because like why you tell me my initials are Let me change. >> This is how whack.
32:03
>> You didn't love being called the dark.
32:06
>> I loved it, but I never in my life.
32:07
Like, why didn't kids call me that in fifth grade?
32:09
All you do is flip All you do is flip it.
32:11
This is like the splash stone.
32:13
All you do is flip the initials. Mark Dennis. >> Dennis. >> Dark Menace. >> Why? No kid came up with it. I never thought of it.
32:20
And all of a sudden there's this college kid. He's 19.
32:22
He's doing a drawing of his hands and he's like, "Yeah, you're the dark menace." And I'm like, "What? Why?"
32:28
Cuz I No, I wear a lot of black.
32:31
I wear I wear dark clothes and I have dark hair.
32:33
And I'm I'm kind of I don't know if it's moody.
32:37
I'm a little I could be slightly abrasive in my teaching methodologies.
32:39
I'm a little in your face. I'm a little loud.
32:42
But you know, I mean, >> wait, wait, we're gonna hang on, hang on.
32:45
We're I want to take you back to that because I find that very interesting.
32:49
>> What do you mean abrasive in your church uh teaching method?
32:51
What's abrasive about it?
32:55
>> I've learned a lot about how patience is a virtue. >> I didn't have a lot. Let's just say this.
33:03
I had less patience 20 years ago. >> Just like me.
33:09
>> I mean, you know what?
33:09
When you're playing hockey or you're running for a pass in football, they tell you, the coach always says, "Don't follow the goddamn ball or puck.
33:21
Get to where you think the puck's going to wind up." >> Exactly.
33:24
>> So, when I'm teaching, I'm one step ahead of everyone, including myself.
33:26
And I just did I didn't like it because I my methods would be like, "Come on, man.
33:35
Like, listen to me again.
33:35
I'm gonna do this lecture one more time."
33:37
You know, like I was kind of a coach. >> Yeah. Yeah.
33:42
>> And you know, I'm not can't make them run around the room and do wind sprints because they, you know, are not grasping a visual art lecture. It's not a big deal.
33:49
But I was a little uh So that to me is abrasive. I mean, maybe I'm wrong. Okay. You know what? Look, you saidunia form.
33:54
I never knew I even had what that word was back in the day. So I don't know.
33:57
Maybe I'm maybe abrasive is not the right word.
33:58
Maybe it's like I was a little impatient. >> Yeah. Well, >> okay.
34:01
But so impatience though, I mean, that's something I I find that a lot. >> It's a flower. That's it, >> right?
34:07
I mean, you know, it's like when when you're young and our type of personality, people take you as impatient, and you're really not.
34:15
What you're just trying to do is get to the next place. >> Yeah.
34:22
I mean, that's up for debate.
34:22
I I I mean, it's debatable in a sense that I agree with you. I know who I am.
34:27
And I know that as boastful as this may come across, I am very generous with my time, with my efforts, my energy.
34:35
I am very loving and I'm very giving and I am very patient.
34:39
But yes, to to many it might come across like they don't see that part of me because it doesn't mean it's always there. It's always present.
34:47
So if I know that deep down and clearly now I'm told I have ADHD so who the hell knows what that even means.
34:53
But I'm restless as hell.
34:54
My brain is restless and I'm always like one step outside of my current thought.
35:00
>> So I guess that has to do with the meta narrative too.
35:02
This is why I like the idea of a painting in a painting.
35:04
Like my thoughts are in a like I have thoughts in thoughts and you know I don't even know if that's well explained but I'm sure there's going to be many psychiatrists calling you up later saying do you need an appointment with us?
35:16
>> You know we give you the first session for free.
35:18
>> It's it's called a recursive closed loop. >> Who the hell are you? What was what? For real? Wait, what?
35:22
Okay, I don't want to bore Well, to me it's not boring but I don't want to like get into it but >> No, we won't.
35:29
>> That's fascinating to me.
35:29
Okay, so thank you for that. You've lit a fire. >> What? What?
35:33
Make sure that we don't have that fireman coming to chat with us afterwards, though.
35:40
>> The the thing that is meta about it, at least from my perspective, is ties to humor.
35:46
So, I know a lot of super funny people, and I've never yet met a super funny person who wasn't also really smart and very observant.
36:02
>> Like, like literally, they're the first like you drive up a new car, right? the super funny person.
36:08
You can always count on them to be the one that notices the tiny scratch in the door and points it out immediately. Beautiful car.
36:16
Shame about that scratch.
36:20
>> I think I think people who are professional comedians, they definitely lack a filter. Yeah.
36:26
Otherwise, that flow would not be natural and it wouldn't happen because the funniest people, at least in my estimation, and I have, you know, I definitely have a list of who I think is the funniest comedians who I who I laugh at their humor.
36:41
They're talking about real situations, things that we've experienced, things that things that have maybe slid back and forth between the anxiety spectrum and the comfortable spectrum.
36:49
There's a thin line, you kind of cross that line, you kind of blur the boundaries.
36:53
It's really important to make sure that humor is used in a certain way so that it does come across. Yeah.
37:02
>> And in art it's really challenging. >> Yep.
37:05
>> So, you know, like I said earlier, a lot of my art is not funny.
37:08
And I'm working on a whole new series now called Love Letters, you know, about love and love loss because this is pretty much what I paint about.
37:17
I paint about the celebration of life.
37:18
But within life, there's this incredible carnival ongoing constantly that deals with love and loss.
37:28
>> And the new ones are kind of serious, but you know, they're also beautiful and robust.
37:31
And, you know, everything has deeper meaning, but they're not necessarily punchline funny like Three Jews. >> Yeah.
37:38
And and that that's the other thing about humor, though, right?
37:41
Like humor is the steam valve as far as I'm concerned.
37:45
In other words, it it lets people say things that everybody's [ __ ] thinking anyway, but say them in a funny way.
37:55
Billy Wilder said that if you're going to tell people the truth, you better be funny or otherwise they'll [ __ ] kill you.
38:03
>> Wow, that's pretty abrasive.
38:06
>> It is, but there's a lot of truth to it.
38:08
>> I I agree with you on this.
38:08
I think again everything >> is debatable, but you know, there's schools of thought.
38:14
I mean, right, there's certain groups of people that think alike that there's like-minded people and then there are people who totally disagree with us on this.
38:22
And >> I guess that's how you know I've always told my kids, you know, surround yourself with like-minded people and you know who you can inspire, they can inspire you, motivate each other, and that's life.
38:33
Like that's why we're pretty much tribal deep down.
38:37
>> We are we all are >> uh for the most part. Yeah, I agree.
38:39
I think, you know, they've done studies where they literally take a group of people, randomly put them into tribe A or tribe B, and then like overnight, everyone who's they never knew each other, but everyone in tribe A is tribe A is the best.
39:00
Everyone in tribe B, tribe B is the best.
39:03
I think a lot of this like if you want to ferment a lot of emotional energy that gets you nowhere, just lean into tribalism, right?
39:13
That's a horizontal fight.
39:13
Let's have Boomer against Zoomer.
39:17
Let's have pro- whatever nuclear energy, anti-uclear energy.
39:23
There's always going to be two tribes going against each other.
39:28
>> Again, my my brain >> Yeah. >> back to balance. We talked about this.
39:32
Maybe we talked about it before we got on air. Is it called on air? >> No. Yeah, on air. >> Everything's air.
39:38
I mean, we're all on air. We walking on air. Walking on sun.
39:42
>> We talked about balance. I seek balance.
39:44
Yeah, I think we did talk about it. Seek balance. Seek peace.
39:48
>> My grandmother, my nana Charlotte, my mother's mother said to me, she always wanted us out of the house.
39:54
By the way, I always thought she liked apple juice, but then I learned later in life she was drinking whiskey when we when we visited her in the afternoons in f in Randolph, Mass.
40:03
Randolph, her house was like a bright salmon pink or orange, whatever the color is.
40:10
>> And she would say, "Get out, get go out and play, you know, like go in the yard and >> in the yard."
40:15
>> One day, you know, I wanted to bring stuff into the house to to clean in her sink, >> you know, like rocks, you know, to find the She's like, "No, no, no, no.
40:23
and she got a little upset with me and then she realized, you know, because my mother's like, "Ma, you know, don't get mad at my kid, you know, he's just he's just curious, you know."
40:31
And I remember my grandma walked over to me later and she says, "Mark, everything in moderation.
40:40
>> Just go through life, everything in moderation."
40:43
I'm freaking fourth grade.
40:45
I'm like, "What are you talking about? I had no idea. Now I get it."
40:47
And I'm telling you that is the best advice, one of the one of the little snippets of advice that I've received in my life that I still to this day think about.
40:55
So I believe that we can we can work together if we understand that we have to accept one another's ideas, constructs, as long as there's no hate and divisiveness within those ideas, >> right?
41:10
We should be able to, you know, God, I'm going to sound so like I'm at a dead concert, you know, like we we can get along.
41:18
And I like the dead, but you know what I mean.
41:19
The concerts, you know, the Yeah, people are kind of weird.
41:23
>> So, how does that transfer over to your art?
41:27
>> I have no idea what I'm talking about anymore.
41:28
>> You're You were on balance. >> You're on balance. >> I'm out there. I just lost my balance. I tipped over. >> I'm rebalancing. >> Okay.
41:35
Now, what was the question?
41:37
>> The question was we were talking about balance. >> Okay. Composition. Composition. So, let me say this.
41:40
So, as a as a former college professor, and I still I still mentor people, and if they want to talk about composition, I'm all about it.
41:46
But I really do think that good painting starts with good design.
41:50
>> I really believe, and I don't know if it's necessarily obvious, but I think a wellbalanced painting.
41:54
And again, my balance is my my lane.
41:58
like I know how to I know how to drive in my lane, you know, where like someone like France Klene, who I loved in art school, loved looking at his work, or Duning, who I think is one of the greatest painters that ever lived, even though he's not as, you know, Sutine.
42:13
It's Tishon then Sutine, but yeah, go figure.
42:15
But, you know, they would look at balance differently.
42:18
To me, I I I take so much time to figure out my composition before once I have the idea and then I want to uh I think about my intentions and then I come up with an idea.
42:33
So, it's always intentions first and then my idea and then I think about how am I going to construct this idea?
42:37
How am I going to make it visually appealing?
42:38
It always starts with balance >> and intentions.
42:42
Talk to me a bit about that.
42:45
Well, you know, like I said earlier, I, you know, how do you know a Jew made a painting when it's not easy?
42:49
Like if there was a show on self-portraiture and everybody, you know, was painting themselves and they you could identify with that person, you know, it's I I thought, how would I do it?
42:58
I mean, how do you do it?
42:58
You have to work in some stereotypical sense if you know because there might be look, it's a problemat it was a problem that I wanted to challenge because it was a it's it's it's something that I just had to tackle because I had never tackled it before.
43:14
I had always done my self-portrait through art school.
43:16
Everybody had assignments.
43:16
We had like 20 self-portraits.
43:18
Paint yourself this week. See you on Monday.
43:21
You know, that was like a Tuesday assignment you had all weekend and you come in the next day.
43:25
Nobody would hang their work up.
43:27
But we all knew each other.
43:27
But if I would like go to like an exhibition in the in the in a museum and I would see self-portraits, I didn't know who was what or who stood for what or what they were unless you had to read the placard.
43:38
And I thought I don't want to read placards.
43:39
I I don't want to understand like uh why Moro, Mino, and the Met maybe painted someone and you know if if they were in a certain costume, you could identify with maybe their culture, but you never could identify much more with their race unless you know you could see it on the skin tone or and I became challenged by that.
44:00
But being a white guy, you know, I thought, how do I paint myself as a Jew?
44:04
So that's when I went all in on the stereotype where I thought I'm going to paint the Jew so people say, "Oh, that's a Jew."
44:10
Like that's not Mark, that's a Jew first and I thought I'd have some fun with it.
44:16
That's how it all started.
44:16
So that's that was the impetus. >> Yeah.
44:19
>> I don't even know if I answered your question.
44:20
I don't remember the question.
44:21
>> Well, I'm interested in portraits uh in general uh especially self-portraits, right?
44:27
Because I do think that like uh Raphael's portrait of a young man, still missing, looted by the Nazis, ace of spades on the monuments, deck of cards to try to find it.
44:39
If you really look at that portrait, I I I think I see why the Nazis wanted that so badly because what I see is a very self-confident Raphael staring out.
44:53
And you got to put it in context, right?
44:55
always >> back back then everything was you as an individual are are nothing.
45:01
God through the intermediaries of priests and rabbis and everyone else is going to tell you you got to deal with the intermediary, right?
45:12
But when you look at pictures, unfortunately, because it's still missing, when you look at the portrait of a young man by Raphael, what I see is like humanism looking back at me.
45:22
I see a guy saying, "You know what?
45:25
No, you you don't need your kings.
45:28
You don't need your generals.
45:30
we humans can do a lot of [ __ ] and get it really done right.
45:35
And and then Durr, the famous uh German uh of the Renaissance, he he painted himself in the Salvador Mundi, the Christ pose.
45:49
>> Never left his gallery because he was terrified of getting like drawn and quartered, hung, all of that.
45:53
But like the difference between those two portraits is striking to me.
46:02
>> And think about it, they were very young at the time. >> Very, very young.
46:05
>> So these are young, brash men full of kutzbah. >> Yep.
46:11
>> Sexuality aside, they were young men. >> Yep.
46:14
>> And they were at the they were battling for positioning.
46:19
>> And so to paint oneself as a Christ figure >> that takes balls, >> right?
46:26
Yeah, we prefer hutzbah but I'm going to go with and then Raphael of course naturally you said god priest and then there was Michelangelo >> right >> who were you know from what I understand I don't know if it was Vasari however I read these notes Raphael would sneak into the cyine
46:42
>> yep >> chapel and he would look up and he would make notes of his own sketches of his own and present them first in the school of Athens you know speaking of humanism and he would present these figures before the public knew that Michallangelo had actually created them. I mean, this is that's balls.
46:55
I mean, this is that's balls. >> Yeah.
46:58
>> And everybody knew it back then.
46:58
And then he died young, unfortunately. >> Very young.
47:02
>> He was also an orphan. Yeah. He was also an orphan. >> I mean, I don't know. We all have stories. We all have obstacles. We all have challenges. That's a fact. Yeah.
47:10
>> So, orphan aside, whatever. I can't comment on that.
47:12
>> Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel.
47:14
Don't you love how he put all of his enemies in hell?
47:18
>> I thought we were talking about the Ninja Turtles, >> the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. My kids love you.
47:24
Uh, Raphael, Michelangelo, >> um, Donatello, and who am I missing? >> Melissa. >> Yeah. Oh. Oh, Da Vinci. >> Leonardo. >> Leonardo. Right. Right. Right. >> I haven't seen that.
47:41
>> I have a great story about that, but we're not going to have time for this today.
47:43
We'll do We got a lot of >> We'll do part two from hell later.
47:44
But, >> um, >> did you like that work, by the way? Um, uh, Life in Hell.
47:50
What's his What's the artist? He's a cartoonist.
47:53
>> I don't know what we're talking about.
47:54
>> He went on Matt Grooning.
47:54
He went on to do the Simpsons. >> Yeah, of course. What he do? Life in Hell. I don't know.
48:00
>> His original work is hysterical and it's really Oh, with the little rabbit head. Yeah. So, I never read it.
48:07
I never I never looked at it, but I do know the figure.
48:11
>> Read it because >> it's funny as hell. >> Can I go now?
48:14
>> No, >> but I'll send you a cop. >> Yeah. Yeah, I understand. That's how he started. Yeah, I understand. >> Yeah. Talk about meta. Okay.
48:19
Like >> what's the word like when you hear the word pang? >> Pang.
48:26
>> Like a p the first pangs of love. Is that a word? Pang. >> Yeah. Yeah.
48:30
>> So, you know, I'm I'm asking you for Yes. >> for validation.
48:34
>> I'm your >> So, I'm 9 years old. >> Yeah.
48:36
>> At the time, we were living in uh um Sharon cuz then we had moved to Puerto Rico for four years. Another another story. Yeah.
48:44
We went from like icy ponds skating to like you know catching lizards and palm trees and mangoes.
48:49
So um the Wizard of Oz comes on.
48:53
It's around Thanksgiving time >> if I remember correctly.
48:57
It's always on during Thanksgiving time.
48:59
I remember it might have been like a week before and it's on TV and my mother says we let's all watch it. >> Five boys. >> Yeah. >> I'm like okay. Wizard of Oz.
49:11
I mean I never heard I didn't know what the hell was going on.
49:12
You know, nowadays [ __ ] comes up and pops up on your phone.
49:16
Like you could know like a movie from like, you know, you could know the movie M with Peter Lori on your phone by watching Tik Tok and you'll know of it. But great movie. Yeah.
49:26
>> But the Wizard of Oz, I didn't know about my said you'll like it.
49:27
It's, you know, it's part black and white, part color, you know, it's fantasy.
49:30
And I'm like, okay, whatever. Turn it on.
49:34
So, we're watching it and everything's good.
49:38
You know, the Gangham dress is cute.
49:40
The bows in her hair are cute.
49:41
Dorothy, you know, it's all in black and white.
49:43
They're in Kansas, you know, like.
49:46
So, it wasn't it was just okay. It was interesting.
49:51
And then she starts singing. I'm 9 years old.
49:57
I really don't know what happened. I fell in love.
50:03
I The first pangs of true adoration or love for a girl >> Yeah.
50:09
just over just overwhelming >> washed over me my soul. >> Yeah.
50:15
>> Which I don't really have, but nonetheless, I I felt like, wow.
50:19
And I remember distinctly, my brothers were so bored.
50:21
They were so ready to leave the room anyway.
50:23
I could sense that, you know, like I wasn't the jerky kid.
50:25
Like, I love my family, but I want I and I said, "Can you guys you really want to watch this?"
50:30
My dad couldn't wait to get out of the room.
50:33
I mean, like he wasn't into it.
50:37
And my mother probably had [ __ ] to do.
50:39
And you know, my brothers are younger and except for one older one, they probably she probably had to put him to bed like in a half an hour.
50:44
And I and she goes, "Why?"
50:46
I said, "Well, can I watch this by myself?"
50:47
She's still singing while I'm asking her.
50:49
And I'm like falling in love with this with with Dorothy. >> Yeah. >> True story. And they left the room. >> They did. Really?
50:59
>> And I watched The Wizard of Oz alone like this, you know, legs up, knees bent on my tummy >> like so. Norman Rockwell.
51:08
So like >> and after that it became like the movie because with every pathway, every turn and every twist of fate I really related to it.
51:24
>> The heart, the brain, you they already have it. >> Yep.
51:27
>> They just don't know it. >> Exactly.
51:29
>> And the wizard is just you pulling your own strings.
51:32
What I mean there's so many ways of interpreting this. >> Oh, totally.
51:34
So, and recently my daughter and I go to Broadway shows once or twice a month. This is what we do. >> Okay.
51:43
>> And we had never seen uh Wicked. >> Wicked. Yeah. >> So popular, you know.
51:48
I mean, we hadn't seen Pirates and she finally said, "Let's go see that."
51:51
Like, we always saw the shows.
51:53
Gypsy, you know, like Mulan Rouge, like I had mentioned 14 times.
51:57
But we go to see Wicked and you know, Glenda, do you know what I'm talking about? >> I do.
52:03
It was f It was It was awesome. But there's no Dorothy.
52:06
In fact, Dorothy's like shunned.
52:08
She's like [ __ ] in this show.
52:12
>> She's like in a freaking basement. >> Yeah. >> And I don't care. It's not about Dorothy.
52:16
It's about the nature of Glenda and the Wicked Witch and the fact that her sister died and all this weird stuff. >> Yeah.
52:25
>> And the one thing that I didn't know all my life, all my life, having watched the Wizard of Oz probably a hundred times maybe. >> Yeah. Yeah.
52:31
All my all my college roommates thought I was gay in in in school, you know, cuz I'd be like, "Dudes, Wizard of Oz is coming on." They're like, "What?
52:41
I had no idea she was an icon of the queer industry."
52:44
>> Didn't you introduce them to the Pink Floyd version of the Wizard of Oz? >> What's that? >> Oh, come on. Never.
52:50
>> You've watched The Wizard of Oz a hundred times and you've never put the Pink Floyd album on >> at the very beginning.
53:01
>> What are you talking about? >> It syncs up. Are you joking? I'm not joking.
53:04
Okay, we're not going there.
53:06
>> Roger White's an [ __ ] So maybe back then he was >> We We won't go there, but Okay.
53:12
>> Yeah, cuz that'll ruin it. >> Yeah. Okay, so keep going. >> Okay.
53:14
Yeah, I'll be right there.
53:14
I got to go on my ride soon. Okay.
53:15
So, I didn't know that she was an icon for for gays, whatever the case might be. >> Right. Right. Right.
53:24
>> I remember distinctly sitting there with my daughter in the theater and and Glenda is descending in a bubble.
53:33
I do not I I don't remember this from the movie. >> Oh, yeah. Okay.
53:36
Well, this that this is a good example of how my brain works. >> I see. Okay.
53:42
I focus in on things and I hone in on things and I become and I harness the energy of those certain things and I I'm so about the details of those things that attract me that I I'm not really paying attention to other things albeit.
53:55
>> So here I am today painting bubbles.
53:57
>> This is I'm I'm coming full circle about the meta narrative. Yeah.
53:59
About my childhood experiences. >> Yeah.
54:03
>> And I said to my daughter later, I said, "Wow, Glinda descends in a bubble. That's bizarre." She goes, "Yeah."
54:06
I'm like, "But I'm painting bubbles now."
54:10
And inside those bubbles are memories of our childhood and of memories that I'm building with my kids like the house we live in now, our backyard and Ithaca.
54:19
Like these bubbles hold things. >> Mhm.
54:21
>> But I learned that the bubble that she descends on is sort of this magical effrovescent floating device that is heavenly. It's about goodness.
54:31
And I'm telling you, this show gets deeper and deeper every time I think about it and every time I Okay, well that's my point.
54:39
Like it's just one of those movies that allows you to dig in your heels, love it for what it is, and then you learn it. You know what it's like.
54:47
You know, I never like the term I like onions. I like onion rings.
54:51
I like them sauteed, fried, whatever.
54:53
But, you know, I don't like the idea of a metaphor of something is like you peel it back like an onion.
54:58
Like I like nobody likes doing that, right?
55:00
>> It's this crispy paper wrapping that it's gross and it smells and you got to wash your hands all the time.
55:03
We got to find something else that has that you can peel.
55:06
But the idea is that this movie is truly the biggest sweetest onion of all movies. >> Totally.
55:13
Uh the other thing about that movie that is so again meta is it's kind of like they're telling you, hey, you're living in a managed reality. >> Yeah. Bubble. >> A bubble.
55:28
>> A bubble. and it complete with the the the god in this case the great and powerful Oz where they project the big picture right of him and they're all shaking and everything and then Toto goes and pulls the curtain and we see
55:45
the very pedestrian real Oz >> right Toto a dog >> right Toto a dog >> who people would presume albeit you know human's best friend nonetheless is doesn't have a sense of logic like we do but it did it does it sense something >> y >> that we were like missing. >> Yep. And it's I'm fascinated by it >> Yep.
56:01
And it's I'm fascinated by it because we do sort of live in a world where we pay attention to the projection and we pay very little attention to the man behind the curtain. >> Okay.
56:15
Well, this has to do with intention. >> Yes.
56:18
>> And this, if I may, >> please, because I don't think I ever answered your question about intention.
56:23
I always start with intent because I have to know what it is for me personally is it that I want to reveal >> like the curtain pulling it back.
56:31
I have to know in my paintings what what my intentions are so that I can best communicate to a viewer, you know, the projection in the Wizard of Oz >> and and how many different interpretations like for people who talk to you.
56:49
>> By the way, I just have to say I mean I like a lot of movies.
56:50
I'm not saying that the Wizard of Oz is the greatest movie.
56:54
It's just one of my it's my favorite. Yeah.
56:56
>> Because it's just, you know, it's love, it's delight, it's death, it's loss again. It's love and loss.
57:01
It has the the thing that intrigues me about it is as you just said it literally you can just keep going layer by layer through that movie and it really is a it's almost philosophical if you really love that movie and watch it enough like each time I watch that movie I see something else.
57:26
>> I mean some Yeah, I agree. That's what I'm saying.
57:28
It's like the onion but someone said to me one time Mark you know she's having a dream. It's a dream.
57:32
I'm like, uh, you could perceive you could think that if you want.
57:34
I never read the LFrank Bomb books.
57:36
I don't know how many there are, but I I have not.
57:40
So, I don't really know what his true intentions were and how best it was personified in the in in the movie, but nevertheless, you know, I'm visual and when I read, I fall asleep.
57:48
So, I can't read the books and I'm not going to read the books because I'm happy with my the results of how I feel from the movie.
57:55
But I don't believe it was just a dream.
57:56
Like, nothing is just something.
57:56
Nothing is as it appears to be. >> Right.
58:01
>> That's what I truly believe in life. >> Yes.
58:03
And perception therefore becomes paramount. >> Right.
58:09
>> Speaking of paramount pictures, movies. Yeah. >> Yeah.
58:13
>> I think they own the rights now to the movie.
58:15
>> Did you mean to say that?
58:17
>> Are you getting paid to talk about Paramount? >> No, I am not. >> Now you are.
58:23
I I mean that people can only see what they expect to see oftentimes and that perception is that filter, right? >> Yeah, I agree.
58:38
And and a lot of people don't understand that we all have different kind of reality tunnels that we look or reality goggles that we look at the world through.
58:52
That's why you can have two people.
58:55
They could be sitting right here, right?
58:57
And we could both have glasses on and my reality glasses would see probably a somewhat similar.
59:06
>> It's happening, you know, with VR. >> Yeah.
59:08
>> Yeah. But actually they there was a test done a guy was teaching a class and the class was at the end of a long corridor right and the first time around the first time the students are in the class he goes hey did any of you pay attention
59:27
to like what was on the walls and stuff and in the hallway on your way down here and a lot of people were like yeah I think I did and he goes okay your first assignment is to draw what you remember seeing in that hallway. And they did. And they did.
59:45
And what he found extraordinary was none of the drawings were similar, right?
59:49
So some have a lot of posters and a lot of uh you know art pieces on the wall on the left. Some have lockers.
59:58
Some the have different kinds of lighting and everything.
1:00:04
And he's just like it all all of our perceptions vary and when you understand that it makes you a lot more understanding and a lot less binary.
1:00:14
But I I think that that's kind of also one of the keys to great artists, right?
1:00:20
You like you see the world in a way that regular people don't.
1:00:32
>> I I don't have a comment about that. No comment. >> Yeah.
1:00:34
I mean, I have a lot to say, but I don't I don't I don't know how to sum that up.
1:00:38
I don't I maybe I don't share that perspective.
1:00:40
>> Oh, well, tell me yours.
1:00:42
>> I I you know, people who know me really well have heard this many, many times.
1:00:47
I never wanted to be an artist. >> Yeah.
1:00:51
>> I don't really think it's a high, what's the term for it?
1:00:54
Not profession, but it's a you know, I like what I do. I'm very >> status. High. >> I'm very blessed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I'm lucky, >> right? I mean, I work so much.
1:01:01
I paint every I work a lot, >> but I don't need a pat in the back.
1:01:06
I just do it because I don't have anything else to do.
1:01:10
>> I mean, I like what I do.
1:01:10
I think what I do is good.
1:01:12
I think I >> like you can't like >> But I'm not saving lives.
1:01:14
I'm not like >> right >> bringing someone back to life.
1:01:17
I'm not feeding people who are hungry.
1:01:19
Like, >> it's just a thing.
1:01:22
But, you know, we always have art.
1:01:24
I understand the importance in a culture.
1:01:25
I just don't think that artists really can ever take the what's the word you know like the higher seat amongst >> in the hierarchy >> astronauts or neurosurgeons or fighter pilots or pilots >> so you >> or home or or nurses or doctors or right >> I you know you know like we're entertainers >> I don't see I don't see how anybody can argue that what are we doing we're making things to look at >> granted from that point it goes on to something else.
1:01:57
Maybe people who don't maybe people who are visually impaired aren't seeing things but they can still feel art or be talked about it or understand it or or listen to music.
1:02:06
Musicians mind you in my estimation as miserable and as constipated whereas IBS Beethoven was from what I'm reading he had IBS and wasn't called IBS but this guy you know he was miserable. >> Yeah. >> Also deaf at the end. >> Yeah.
1:02:25
He turned deaf and Goya went deaf around the same time. Yeah, that's right.
1:02:28
There's a lot of deafness in >> because you know they weren't vaccinated.
1:02:35
>> So this is a higher seat for me.
1:02:35
I mean writing and playing music to me is almost it's so outside my realm of possibility. I think I could sing. Okay.
1:02:49
I've been singing I don't take lessons but I like to sing.
1:02:51
My daughter sings really well.
1:02:52
like the interest that my kids are picking up, the fact that they're so good at certain things.
1:02:57
I think, wow, you know, like when do you determine what you want to be in life? Like what happens?
1:03:05
>> Like how do people do like how does Donald O Connor dance in Singing in the Rain around that room?
1:03:10
Do you know what I'm talking about? >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah.
1:03:13
I mean, you know, my friends are here, but you know, it's like to me that's crazy amazing and I'm not, you know, at all talented in that realm, but I'm I'm blown away.
1:03:28
To me, they're higher like because I've been drawing since I was a kid.
1:03:30
I wanted to be, you know, I didn't think being an artist was an actual thing one could do.
1:03:37
Like, I didn't think it was a so-called job.
1:03:38
you you learn all your life that you have to get a job, you have to work, you have to make money, you have to pay rent, and you need to buy a house.
1:03:42
You know, you move on, you reach certain levels of satisfaction and success.
1:03:45
But, you know, I wanted to be a zoologologist or a naturalist or a park ranger or an entomologist.
1:03:51
Like, I be I'd be looking at insects all day.
1:03:52
I'm good with that, you know, including spiders.
1:03:54
But, I didn't because I was not a very good student in school. I mean, I did okay.
1:03:58
I flunked art junior year.
1:04:00
I mean, I was a mess, you know. I got arrested.
1:04:03
I mean, I have a lot of weird stories that kind of detourred me off.
1:04:08
thinking that I could be something other than an artist.
1:04:11
I kind of fell back into it.
1:04:13
There was a point where I had to go to court and I had to explain to the judge that I did have ideas of after graduating.
1:04:22
Otherwise, I was going to be sent to a juvenile detention center because of the crimes I committed.
1:04:26
>> And I remember being in court saying, "I'm going to be an artist."
1:04:28
But I didn't deep down want to be an artist.
1:04:30
I just didn't have anything else to talk about because apparently prior to my arrival in court, unbeknownst to me, I had two people who from the school had written letters on my behalf saying, "Mark's a good kid. He's super talented.
1:04:45
He's even on the yearbook committee."
1:04:47
That was embarrassing for me to hear that cuz she read the letters in court.
1:04:49
I'm like, "Yearbook committee?
1:04:49
You're not supposed to talk about that, you know, cuz the, you know, like that was like the geek squad before there was a geek squad with uh, you know, Best Buy."
1:04:59
But I went I was on the yearbook committee because I was asked to be on it because I could draw the cartoons for like I was the Matt Granny whatever his name is of the yearbook like I could draw cartoons characters of people and you know it was fun and I did it because I was appreciated for it.
1:05:11
But when I got to court she said listen you know I see here that you're pretty talented.
1:05:15
You must be cuz if you're on the yearbook committee, I'm like, what?
1:05:18
You know, I was this tough long-haired 15-year-old who's >> So, so, >> so I became an artist because I didn't want to let anybody down because I was appreciated for it and I thought, okay, I'll go to art school.
1:05:29
>> So, so let's talk about that, right?
1:05:29
Um, why did you find yourself?
1:05:35
>> This just became a therapy session. >> No, it's not.
1:05:39
Why did you find yourself in court?
1:05:42
>> I've been arrested when I was a teenager.
1:05:44
Just so you know, don't feel bad about it.
1:05:48
>> Oh, I don't I really don't feel bad about it.
1:05:50
I just don't know if it I I I it was grand lararseny. >> Okay.
1:05:58
>> I had broken into people's homes. >> Okay. >> And cars.
1:06:02
>> And what was driving that? >> Curiosity.
1:06:05
>> See, we are in therapy. I don't know. >> You don't know? >> I don't know. Restlessness. >> Yeah. >> Uh challenge. >> Yeah. >> I was good at it. >> Yeah.
1:06:13
I knew bikers in the area that would buy everything off of me.
1:06:16
And >> you were an entrepreneur. >> They Yeah, I was.
1:06:19
And they I was like Robin Hood and they gave me lists skipped.
1:06:22
I didn't wear my underpants on the outside of my pants. Whatever the Right.
1:06:25
That's a joke about that. Robin Hood. Okay.
1:06:27
So, >> tights, men in tights, whatever that is. >> Tights. That's right. >> Okay.
1:06:31
So, I mean, I wear track pants now most days, but I don't.
1:06:33
So I one day I got a list from some people who said, "Can you I want to I want like a you know like a Makita chainsaw or a freaking you know like they gave me lists of shopping lists." >> Yeah. >> Of things to steal. >> Okay. >> And I did it. I satisfied that. I got paid. >> Mhm.
1:06:52
>> I wasn't just paid for that.
1:06:52
Like I mean I was paid for my drawings.
1:06:54
A lot of kids in high school wanted me to draw like their girlfriends or their mom or their dad or their dog.
1:06:59
A lot of dogs you know for gifts. And so I made money.
1:07:04
I was an entrepreneur in a lot of ways, but I didn't, you know, being art, I mean, being an artist to me, it felt like >> there wasn't, it wasn't fulfilling.
1:07:10
Like it didn't make sense unless it was comic book. >> Okay.
1:07:16
>> Cuz I loved comic books. >> Okay.
1:07:18
>> The superhero, see this? Full circle, baby. >> Yeah.
1:07:23
>> The superhero was something that really interested me.
1:07:27
>> The idea that you could battle evil, whatever that might be, >> right? Evil could be sadness.
1:07:32
Evil could be Lex Luthther as we had initially talked about at least I think I mentioned Lex Luthther >> in conjunction with Superman.
1:07:41
The idea that we have polarities and dualities within us like we both have this sense of being >> which is why the name Dark Menace really blew my mind because it really fits, you know.
1:07:51
So, >> and that's my Instagram handle dark menace because I it's now I use it.
1:07:54
Do we call it a handle on Instagram?
1:07:58
>> Yeah, I think they do. >> Profile name.
1:07:59
I don't know what it's called.
1:08:00
Well, we were also talking about the fact that you were getting >> all written and created by Jews post Holocaust. >> Yes. Okay.
1:08:06
I'm gonna Let's put you back in court.
1:08:09
And you're you're you've got the letters of recommendation.
1:08:15
Did Did you you obviously you loved art because you were making money doing >> I love comics and I loved cartoons.
1:08:23
>> Who's your favorite comic?
1:08:25
>> What do you mean who's my favorite comic? Like standup comic? >> Yeah.
1:08:27
You mean like Wait, I'm confused now because I'm talking comic books. Oh. Oh.
1:08:32
>> So Jack Kirby, Steve Ditco, John Busma, you know, Dick Ay is I mean I love you know Kane.
1:08:44
I mean you know Jack Kirby to me is like the Beethoven of comic book art. >> Yeah.
1:08:51
>> I don't even know if that's debatable anymore.
1:08:52
Like I I mean who wouldn't I mean he's the he's the guy. >> Yeah. Joe Kubert.
1:08:55
I mean, if you know what I'm talking about.
1:08:58
But I mean, so, you know, he did Sergeant Rock, which was one of my favorites, but I loved Batman >> and he wasn't, you know, a superhero in the sense that we know of superheroes.
1:09:09
Technically speaking, he, you know, he had uh he was vengeful, >> but he was also yearning for love all his life. Never found it.
1:09:15
Like, I found great identity in his personality, in his I wasn't vengeful.
1:09:20
I wasn't searching for love.
1:09:22
I mean, I was I did okay.
1:09:23
I just wasn't I just understood the darkness.
1:09:25
I understood that this existed in us. I br I was a brooding.
1:09:27
I bru I mean we all I think we all do.
1:09:32
Maybe I I could I don't know what the hell I don't know anything but I know that in myself I would find myself in my in my room >> and I felt like I was >> brooding. >> Yeah.
1:09:42
And I didn't even know what that word meant but I Yeah.
1:09:43
I was pondering on everything.
1:09:45
My thoughts came at me very fast. Yeah.
1:09:47
I would always feel anxiety about certain things and always thought I need to find a solution to this.
1:09:54
>> And you're a journaler though, too, right? >> You are.
1:09:56
Well, I used to write a lot.
1:09:56
I don't write so much anymore. >> Really? >> Well, why? >> Okay. You know, all right.
1:10:02
Well, I don't even know the origin of the cats out of the bag.
1:10:05
I think it was because the sailors brought the cats on the boat to kill the rats and then when the cat was out, they realized, oh, there's rats on board.
1:10:11
Like, we're [ __ ] I don't know what I I don't know the origin.
1:10:12
I'm probably I got to look it up later, Wikipedia.
1:10:16
But the cat's out of the bag.
1:10:16
So, I am writing a memoir. >> Ah, okay. How's it going?
1:10:24
>> You do know that I have a publishing company, right?
1:10:26
I don't know anything about I don't even know who you are. I mean, what?
1:10:28
I told you I came into this blindly.
1:10:29
I didn't even know we were going to talk more than like 20 minutes.
1:10:32
>> I thought there was going to be some food at least.
1:10:33
But, I mean, you know, a [ __ ] donut.
1:10:36
I mean, you know, when you learn I'm from Boston, you should have Duncan out. But, okay.
1:10:40
But you give me a bottle of water.
1:10:42
But the cup is nice though.
1:10:44
you know, it's like a lizard or which I found in you put that down.
1:10:49
I was on that guy like an alligator.
1:10:51
>> Like that's really nice.
1:10:51
But but anyway, um Oh, that's funny cuz I went I got off, you know, uh I was in Penn Station and I never buy food in Penn Station, you know, like the what do you call it? The the new hall. Uh um Moan Hall.
1:11:03
Y >> the food court's really nice actually.
1:11:07
>> And I I I I was hungry so I don't need food is what I'm saying.
1:11:10
But I bought a ham and cheese croissant at this Martha Stewart place >> and they get and I waited like 20 minutes and I'm like, "What?
1:11:16
What the hell happened to my order?" Okay, 10 minutes.
1:11:19
>> People coming from behind are getting their crap. Same things. Yeah.
1:11:23
>> Egg and cheese croissant sandwich. >> Yeah. >> With ham. They're like, "Oh, what? What? What's your order?"
1:11:28
I'm like, "What are you kidding me? You forgot my order?"
1:11:30
She goes, "Oh my god, we we forgot your order." No, sorry. Nothing. Right.
1:11:33
>> And I'm like, "Well, now what?
1:11:33
I have to wait another 10 minutes."
1:11:35
They go, "Well, we we'll we'll we'll speed it up."
1:11:38
Like, what is going on here?
1:11:38
$16 at this freaking place. They they gave it to me.
1:11:43
It was freaking bottom was frozen. I took a bite.
1:11:44
I'm like, "Okay, no good."
1:11:46
I went I sent it back and I said, "Dude, I I just cut the line. I I didn't care. I was I was angry." But I kept it together.
1:11:55
And I said, "This croissant is frozen on the bottom. Losing my ticket.
1:12:01
There's no excuse for that.
1:12:03
You just should have refunded me and given me a croissant anyway."
1:12:08
done something because you don't know who I am.
1:12:10
And then what went through my head was, "Oh my god, it's time to write my first Yelp review.
1:12:17
I cuz I have to play a role in the system.
1:12:20
I have to I have to let people know >> like rather than brooding about this, I'm sitting in my dark space, you know, like Batman, take action." >> Yeah.
1:12:29
>> So I downloaded the Yelp app while sitting in Moahan Hall and I wrote a review of exactly what happened in detail.
1:12:38
So, I contributed cuz I just didn't know how else to fight back.
1:12:42
Like, I was I didn't enjoy that that situ that experience was a bad situation.
1:12:47
My point being is that I don't need donuts right now. So, good, >> right?
1:12:51
I don't need anything >> cuz we don't have donuts.
1:12:54
>> But I have But you don't want me on sugar.
1:12:56
But I did have a hearty meal, but it was not a great like it was not what I what I had anticipated. Yeah. Kind of sucked. >> It kind of sucked.
1:13:03
And it shouldn't suck because I love Martha Stewart and everybody knows that she you know her brand demands >> proper attention.
1:13:12
>> Martha herself would be very dismayed and I have about your experience >> and I have had lunch with Martha in fact in in Soho. Yes.
1:13:19
And I went to an Amy Cherald lecture and sat next to Martha >> and you know Amy's a friend and Martha was in in attendance.
1:13:27
It was so you know point being is that uh I wrote that in my review.
1:13:32
I said they're trash and mouth's brand. Shame on them.
1:13:37
>> So, but let's get back to the memoir.
1:13:39
>> Let's get back to something. >> What? >> Anything? Damn it. Ground me.
1:13:44
>> Have you ever heard Ground Me, Jim?
1:13:44
Have you ever heard of the uh game Kismmet? Talking to a Jew? >> No.
1:13:52
To answer your question, no.
1:13:52
But you know what Kismmet mean?
1:13:54
I say kismmet probably once a day. >> Yeah.
1:13:57
So, so in the version of the game is you you have to you would be perfect at it because the rules can anytime it's your turn as a player, you can completely change the rules and then the next player has to play by your it's like improv. It's really fun.
1:14:17
>> So, first of all, you invited me to this podcast. >> Yes. >> And I accepted. >> Yes.
1:14:22
>> And because of that, we're friends now. So, I can say this.
1:14:23
I love you, but I'm never going to play that game.
1:14:26
Okay, let's get back to the memoir. Why? Why?
1:14:31
>> So, no more game talk. >> No more games at all. >> I don't do games. Pictionary? No. If I go to a Yeah.
1:14:36
I don't even go to people's homes anymore to like cuz they're going to rip out Pictionary when I'm when I show up.
1:14:41
>> I'm not a fan of Pictionary.
1:14:43
>> When I show up, they bring it out thinking I'm going to be the best at it. And I'm like, "Stop it.
1:14:46
You all know what Shoppies are. Use it.
1:14:49
You can draw on the toilet. You don't need me."
1:14:51
I'm like, "No, I'm not going to do things in a minute.
1:14:55
You do things in a minute or 30 seconds.
1:14:57
Oh, and I don't like those.
1:14:59
I don't like people who have I don't You know what? Don't even get me. I'm not going there.
1:15:03
>> But this this >> I don't like I'm not going to anyone's house or anywhere.
1:15:06
I'm not going to show up. A meet up. Remember the meetup?
1:15:09
Remember those meetup things? >> I do. >> That's why. No, not you came here.
1:15:17
>> Yeah, because it's you invited me and Ariel suggested it and this is not a game. No.
1:15:25
>> Like, you know, chess I'll play. >> Yep. >> That I'll play. >> Fun game. You play go.
1:15:30
>> I play with my son a lot. >> What? >> Go. >> Dude, no games.
1:15:33
But chess to me is like a game game.
1:15:37
It's not like a board game.
1:15:39
It's not like a picture like you know that like charades.
1:15:41
If I ever go to someone's house, >> oh, I'm with you there, brother.
1:15:46
>> Fair warning to all the people out there who know me.
1:15:48
>> Don't invite me to play charades.
1:15:48
That's where it's like, >> I'm out. Got to go now.
1:15:55
Call the coroner's office. Not good. There's so many people. What? What?
1:16:01
>> What's that game on the floor that looks like a Damian Hurst painting? >> A twister. >> Yes. >> Oh, no.
1:16:08
That was that looks Damian. >> Well, it does. Sorry, Damian.
1:16:14
>> You know, wasn't he the guy in the omen? >> Uh, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Good. Scary movie. >> Yeah, very scary.
1:16:21
>> I can remember some things. Well, don't I don't No. No games.
1:16:23
All right, let's let's keep going with the memoir, though.
1:16:27
>> Although, it's fun to talk about games. It is. It's fun to bash games.
1:16:28
It should be a game about bashing games. >> Yes, I agree. >> Here you go. You're an entrepreneur. Like, [ __ ] do it.
1:16:39
>> I don't I'm not going to do it.
1:16:41
>> I am not going to do it.
1:16:42
>> Let's get back to the memoir >> time.
1:16:44
>> Let's get back to the memoir.
1:16:44
What What What struck you to decide you're going to do?
1:16:49
>> Okay, we're going to get deep here. >> Let's do it.
1:16:51
I'm going to say a few sentences and I'm going to move on. >> Good. >> Okay. >> Sure.
1:16:58
>> My younger brother passed away. When Thank you. So am I.
1:17:00
When he died, I needed to communicate with him.
1:17:05
So I began writing him a letter every day.
1:17:12
And it was always, "Dear Bruce, this is what's happening.
1:17:17
>> You're not missing much, but maybe you have stories for me one day you'll tell me.
1:17:20
Maybe I'll catch up with you one day, you know, like I And the letters led and bled into stories about what I'm doing.
1:17:28
And then they, as they always do, they kind of spiral out of control and they became stories about stories and they became not so much about addressing Bruce, but about just commenting on life.
1:17:39
And then it became memories.
1:17:42
And then I began to talk about why I was arrested.
1:17:44
And then I wrote about the forest fire that I started.
1:17:47
And then I wrote about the first lizard I caught when I moved to Puerto Rico.
1:17:51
How fascinated I was about lizards.
1:17:53
Like why hadn't I seen lizards in Massachusetts? Like what the hell?
1:17:57
Like why are there so many different animals living in different parts? How'd they get there?
1:18:00
How what is the touitara?
1:18:04
It's a lizard which is incredible because it has a third eye which no one knows about because it's under a flap of skin.
1:18:09
I mean, it's I wrote about things that fascinated me and I just kept going and going and going and tying it somehow into my sense of self. >> Very cool.
1:18:21
How are you done with it?
1:18:23
>> Is anyone ever done with a memoir? >> Not really. >> No.
1:18:25
I mean, I don't No one's watching me write it, so I'm just writing it.
1:18:27
It's almost like an outlet. >> Very cool.
1:18:31
>> And one day when I'm gone, someone's going to find it and they're going to say, "Oh, >> so you don't have you don't have aspirations to have it actually published so that the public can read it?
1:18:43
So when I taught college, I'm going to answer this question. >> Where did you teach?
1:18:47
>> I taught at Elmmyra College in Elmyra, New York. Okay.
1:18:49
I taught painting and drawing and Holocaust studies.
1:18:52
>> And then I lectured at Cornell in the Jewish studies program on Holocaust studies. >> Mhm.
1:18:58
>> Because you know they're like 30 minutes apart.
1:19:00
>> And we lived, you know, when I was married, we lived in Ithaca.
1:19:01
Both kids were born in Ithaca.
1:19:03
And my students said to me, "Dude, before we start the lesson, today's lesson," because you know, they were three and a half hour classes. Can you tell us a story?
1:19:13
And I had already been in the middle of my memoir cuz my brother died young.
1:19:15
And I said, "Okay, I have a lot of stories. You want me?"
1:19:21
He go, "Yeah, you're always telling stories.
1:19:22
You're always like going on and on like you're that guy that doesn't stop talking during class, you know.
1:19:26
Can we just hear a story?" >> Yeah.
1:19:28
>> I'm like, "Well, I'll tell you stories.
1:19:30
I won't lecture you on art, but I'll tell you stories as long as you're drawing and working on the assignment, the in-class assignment. >> Yeah.
1:19:38
>> They would all have like photos out or they'd have a mirror in front of them doing self-portraits, learning proper proportion, all that weird stuff.
1:19:42
And and I'd be telling them stories.
1:19:45
And then, you know, when I left, I resigned in 2015, you know, to pursue my art career full-time and move us back to the city as a family, Williamsburg, Brooklyn.
1:19:57
One of the kids said, "Hey man, we're going to miss these stories. Put them in a book." >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Right.
1:20:05
And why do you think I have a publishing company?
1:20:09
>> I'll never forget that because they're really good stories.
1:20:12
>> And I always thought it would be a great title of the book was stories from my professor. >> I love it.
1:20:18
>> Now I think it's I don't know.
1:20:19
>> So send send us a copy of the manuscript. I'm serious. >> Okay. the uh the >> moving on. >> Moving on.
1:20:28
>> I I I love that though because I'm a huge believer in journaling.
1:20:31
I'm a huge believer in writing.
1:20:33
I wrote when my son was born.
1:20:36
I decided I was going to write letters to my kids.
1:20:38
And I started when he was 4 days old and he's 41 now or 40. Um be 41 next year.
1:20:47
Um and >> Wait, you wrote does he did he read them? Oh yeah. >> Oh, that's great. That's a great title. From four to 41. >> Yeah.
1:20:56
But I have two younger than him, right?
1:20:59
So pay me back each >> last chapter. You owe me. >> Slip the bill. >> True daddy book. Yeah. Yeah. >> Slip the bill.
1:21:10
>> There's an invoice in there.
1:21:13
>> Dad, what's this little note?
1:21:13
It's a love letter, but it's about reality, kid.
1:21:17
But what's what was great about it is like you learn almost as much about yourself as you're writing these letters.
1:21:27
>> Like I said, it's cathartic >> very >> and I did it for that purpose. >> Yeah.
1:21:30
>> My intentions >> Yeah.
1:21:33
>> were to get in touch because I missed them. >> Of course.
1:21:36
>> And then it became a catharsis.
1:21:36
And then I realized, wow, I have a lot more to say than just writing to my brother. Like it just spiraled.
1:21:42
It's it was a beautiful natural.
1:21:46
>> You know how people say, oh, you know, life's like a river or, you know, >> be the brook, breathe the stream.
1:21:50
I don't know what >> Heracitis. Yeah.
1:21:53
>> The same man never steps in the same >> Yeah. >> river.
1:21:56
Because the same man >> and it is not the same.
1:22:00
>> That sounds like a disease of your foot. Heracitis. >> Oh, you have it, too? Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:22:06
I've got this horrible case of Heracitis >> climbing up my leg.
1:22:11
So, yeah, I'm writing a lot of stories.
1:22:14
>> We'll talk about it later. We'll get a beer later.
1:22:15
I can say to you why I like the Irish, you know, I'd love to see them.
1:22:19
>> Let Let's get back to uh the art and like, was there a moment, right, that you're just like, >> "Okay, I'm [ __ ] it. I'm going to do this."
1:22:29
>> Okay, Jim, that is the best question yet. there.
1:22:35
They've all been great, but you know, we always in our brains we're measuring like like I I don't want to bore people when I'm talking.
1:22:41
I think what I have to say is really boring most of the time.
1:22:44
I don't know, you know, but but that but I have a good but that's a good question >> because we all because when I was teaching college the you know I had students who were art majors and I had some who were bio premed nurse majors, education majors who really enjoyed my classes so much that they wanted to become art majors and I would say I don't think so.
1:23:09
>> Like it's not just about it's not fun.
1:23:11
And it's not, you know, it's it's there's like a inner calling.
1:23:13
And if you've got it, then, you know, stick with it.
1:23:16
Take more classes, but don't like don't kill the concentration you're already in, you know, because that's what you came here for, you know, whatever the case might be. Well, I never forgot.
1:23:24
Every graduation, I would have several parents who would come up to me and ask me one question, the same question. What's for lunch?
1:23:32
No, they would say, "What is the key to success?
1:23:40
How is my kid going to succeed as an artist?
1:23:42
You know, my kid can inherit a pizza joint.
1:23:44
We own a pizza restaurant. He doesn't want it.
1:23:47
He wants to be an artist.
1:23:49
What is the key to success? Can you please tell us?
1:23:52
And I said, there is no key to success, but there is a key to failure. And they're like, what?
1:24:00
Cuz you know, I don't know.
1:24:03
I never heard it before in my life, but I kind of came up with it because I had to.
1:24:06
There is no key to success.
1:24:08
I mean, hard work, whatever. I mean, yeah, sure.
1:24:11
>> But you know, what is success?
1:24:11
It's so relative and it's so abstract. >> Yeah.
1:24:16
>> So, >> they said, "What's the key to failure?"
1:24:19
I said, "Trying to please everyone all the time." >> Uh, bingo. So true.
1:24:23
>> It's so true in every respect.
1:24:23
And and I said, "You got to find yourself."
1:24:26
And I think being an artist, I think your kid is yearning to find himself.
1:24:30
Maybe it's not about owning a pizza restaurant.
1:24:34
Maybe in 10 years he will, but he's gota, he's in a spot in life where he has one shot at this. Yep.
1:24:39
>> He's got to go for it. He can't please you. He can't please himself.
1:24:41
He can't please a girlfriend or boyfriend.
1:24:43
You got you got to you got to learn that in some life you got to take responsibilities for your urges.
1:24:48
And you have to as long as they're good and they're focused and they're well-intentioned.
1:24:55
You better damn well fulfill those experiences.
1:24:57
To know what you don't want as opposed to know what you do want.
1:25:00
You have to edit in life. Leave it at that. comes to me. I'm teaching full-time.
1:25:09
I I have a pretty good life, ten fully tenured. We have a nice house. We move whatever. Lovely family. And I'm in Brooklyn now. 2015, mind you.
1:25:20
Now, I had shows, I had sales, but you know, I wasn't a full-time artist.
1:25:26
>> I was a college professor. >> Yeah.
1:25:28
>> Who made interesting art.
1:25:28
Like, I had made the Corb in 2008.
1:25:30
I mean, I I don't remember the date. 2008, maybe.
1:25:34
Yeah, 2008, you know, whatever. 2009.
1:25:36
But, you know, I I and and I had sold it because I had an exhibition while being a professor at Hershel and Adler Modern.
1:25:46
It was my first show in New York City and it it we did really well and I thought, "Oh my god. Is this success?"
1:25:52
Because the show sold out, >> you know, her, you know, in 70. >> I was really happy.
1:25:58
It was a really good exhibition.
1:26:00
I was still working full-time.
1:26:01
I was still living in Ithaca.
1:26:02
I wasn't like living in New book.
1:26:02
I had a studio in Dumbo, but I would teach.
1:26:07
That was my main concern.
1:26:07
My students were my focus.
1:26:09
My family first, students second, art third. But the show did well.
1:26:14
And I thought, "Wow, does this mean I'm an artist?
1:26:16
I guess I'm an artist, but I'm still a professor foremost because that was so rewarding. It was so fulfilling."
1:26:27
So, you said you were full tenure, right? Why not do both?
1:26:35
>> It's a lot of work to teach full-time.
1:26:38
>> I bet >> students are demanding. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:26:40
>> And being that I'm so giving, I gave everything and I have a lot of energy.
1:26:45
Probably more than most people.
1:26:45
I'm sure there's way more energized people than I am, but >> Well, I've met a lot of people. You You're up there.
1:26:54
>> Well, that's like So, I gave And >> no, that's a compliment.
1:26:59
>> Yeah, I take it as a compliment.
1:26:59
First thing I said to these guys was >> Are we done here? >> No. No. No.
1:27:04
>> The first thing I said to these guys was uh Oh, I'm just going to let them run.
1:27:08
>> When you point to them, am I supposed to look? Am I like on TV?
1:27:10
Like cuz I don't know what's going on.
1:27:12
Like I feel bad like I'm not supposed to look at them and I don't want them to think I'm ignoring them.
1:27:15
But the camera's here and then I'm like if I look over then the people I'm watching on TV. Is it on TV?
1:27:21
>> This will be um YouTube. >> YouTube. Yeah. So we have YouTube. Yeah. Okay. So that was a joke. Okay.
1:27:26
Um, I you want to hear a funny You want to hear a funny piece of advice? >> No, not yet.
1:27:32
I want to say because I'm going to forget what I'm gonna say. Okay.
1:27:34
But because you're way smarter than me, so think you'll you'll maintain [ __ ] Your kids are grown. I'm like a teen.
1:27:40
My brain is like a you know like pizza, you know, steak. Okay.
1:27:42
So, in 2015 when my wife at the time and I decided to leave my tenure post and move back to New York City full-time, I was going to become a full-time artist.
1:27:55
And that's when it occurred to me that I am reliant on all my energy, harnessing all my thoughts, all my crazy ideas, allowing my imagination to be nurtured through my images.
1:28:09
It was going to be art or bust. >> All in. >> All in. >> I love allin people. No plan B. >> There was no plan B.
1:28:21
>> I [ __ ] love >> that's a great way of putting it. So, thank you. So, I went all in.
1:28:26
I had my studio in Dumbo.
1:28:26
I set up, we had a big loft in Williamsburg, you know, it was good like this twice, maybe the size. And we were very lucky.
1:28:31
And I started painting in one end of it so I could wake up in my underwear and paint while the kids were still sleeping or you know, like I just was all I was I was the word, you know, immersed >> Yeah. Sure.
1:28:46
>> in making my art thinking I've it's got to go.
1:28:49
It's got I have to like now I'm fully on board with the gallery.
1:28:51
You only get a show once a year.
1:28:54
It's not like I could like what do I do?
1:28:56
I have to get collectors to my studio. I have to do things.
1:28:59
You asked me when was that moment I realized. Yeah.
1:29:02
>> So at the first juncture it was at Hersel Nadler Modern in 2010 when I had my solo exhibition and we sold out.
1:29:06
We did I I thought wow and I'm good. I'm here >> 2010. Think about that. Not that long ago.
1:29:14
>> I mean I had been painting up to that point but never really exhibiting never.
1:29:17
So 2015 I had been invited to this event called Art Crush in Aspen, Colorado by John and Amy Failen and John now is the secretary of the Navy and they had invited me since 2009.
1:29:32
I remember because my daughter Za was born in 2009 and I had been going every summer for for like three to four days.
1:29:42
It's a big event, big gala, an auction of silent artworks.
1:29:47
There's a live auction and you meet and greet collectors from around the world and gallerists and curators and writers and podcasters and celebrities.
1:29:59
They would just come to this event.
1:29:59
It was part of it was at the Failins home in Aspen, a beautiful house, and then part of it was down in some event hall, you know, near the museum and whatever.
1:30:08
So I used to go but while I was there being the mench that I am for all you nonJews out there who don't know Yiddish a mench is someone who is like a sch smoozer like a talking walking wind up energizer bunny >> and that was me.
1:30:25
>> Good guy too guy who's generous and giving you know. Yes. Thank you. Thank you.
1:30:31
>> Central >> someone who's authentic. >> Yes.
1:30:33
>> And I'm the mench and I went from table to table.
1:30:35
I rarely sat down, you know, and I would meet and greet people. Who are you? I'm Mark Dennis. Oh, yeah.
1:30:41
Amy's told me good things about you.
1:30:41
And you know, so between like I have to tell you, you know, and I met Beth the Woody there for the first I mean, there were so many names I could I could mention, but it was it was those experiences at Art Crush that made me realize that these people had my back >> and even though I didn't have >> back to tribes, right? Yeah.
1:31:00
>> These were your people. Yeah. You found them. >> Yeah.
1:31:01
And in 200 and they were art collectors but they were also art appreciators and they also were loving and generous people >> and they bought paintings and from them it you know it kind of their pathways connected me to newer people and I was building a nice body of backers or people who supported me or people patrons you might say.
1:31:23
>> Sure >> to use a Renaissance term since we were talking about Tishan and Raphael and whatnot.
1:31:28
And then uh you know I still didn't have a gallery.
1:31:33
And then finally I had my show with Adam Cohen at a hug from the art world.
1:31:36
Three Jews walk into a bar and Harper Lavine took notice of my work and I am now represented with Harpers.
1:31:46
>> Uh I I am super blessed and I am also represented with Anati in Los Angeles.
1:31:52
So I'm like pinching myself.
1:31:52
My career took off like a rocket.
1:31:57
resigning from my being a professor.
1:32:03
>> Well, that makes like total sense to me.
1:32:06
I'm a huge believer in being allin uh on having no plan B and that's what sound it sounds to me like what happened to you, >> right?
1:32:15
And I didn't have a I I didn't have a choice like I didn't know what I I wasn't going to go study entomology, >> right? >> I mean, I'm all in. I'm an artist. >> Yeah.
1:32:27
you know, move over, [ __ ] You know, like I'm here.
1:32:29
Like, I got to do what I got to do to make it work.
1:32:31
I had a family and, you know, I mean, it it was it's a lot of work. >> Yeah.
1:32:39
>> And I look back and think, >> I'm lucky.
1:32:42
Wasn't there a movie like that? Rocky Gratziano.
1:32:45
Paul Newman looks up and says, "Yeah, ma.
1:32:47
Somebody up there likes me." What was that? >> Uh, yeah.
1:32:50
>> Or I'm lucky is a boxer. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:32:52
I can't remember the name of the >> Yeah, it was Paul Newman.
1:32:54
He looks up and he says, "Hey, ma, >> somebody up there likes me." >> Yeah.
1:32:58
Like, like that's how I feel. >> Yeah.
1:33:00
Well, that's >> and I believe in God and I know that I'm being looked down on. I am lucky.
1:33:05
>> That's another attribute of people who are really interesting in my opinion at least.
1:33:09
It's like the sad man lives in a sad world.
1:33:13
The mad man lives in a mad world.
1:33:15
The happy man lives in a happy world.
1:33:17
The the the uh everything is luck in my opinion. No, wait. Wait for the punch line.
1:33:25
Everything is luck said the world's most unlucky man.
1:33:32
>> Oh, because he's miserable.
1:33:33
>> Because he's miserable.
1:33:34
>> He can't figure it out.
1:33:35
>> He can't [ __ ] figure like other people who have me.
1:33:37
>> So, he blames Oh, everything's just due to luck. No, it is not.
1:33:40
A lot of it is due to your internal monologues, right?
1:33:46
And I love it when I hear people say, "I am the luckiest person in the world." Because guess what?
1:33:50
That opens your perspective and you see things that people who believe they are unlucky can't see.
1:34:00
Literally, we're back to perception now, right?
1:34:02
If you think that you are the luckiest guy in the world, you're going to be a lot luckier than if you think you're the most cursed person in the world. >> Yeah.
1:34:12
I never thought ever that I was the most cursed or unlucky. >> Yeah.
1:34:16
>> I just figured, you know, [ __ ] happens and I got to find a way to move past it. >> Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.
1:34:20
because it's going to happen again. >> Yeah.
1:34:24
>> What is darkness without light? I look at us.
1:34:26
We're sounding like, you know, we should have like [ __ ] some mass being played over our heads, you know? >> Yeah. Because it's true.
1:34:33
I mean, you you love, you lose, you you know, like you look, I could talk I mean, how long is this podcast?
1:34:43
Because this is a great subject.
1:34:44
It is >> because talking about love and talking about loss >> are what makes us human. >> Yes, I agree. >> We are animals.
1:34:54
We just happen to be primates where dogs who pull back curtains on the wizard are related to us.
1:35:02
They're just not primates.
1:35:04
We are the highest order of primate. I mean, it's so basic.
1:35:06
And somehow we have conjured up in all of our cellular divisions and neurotransmissions a bigger brain or a brain that actually takes on more than we probably can handle.
1:35:21
>> And when we're in the midst of sadness or love or incredible happiness or orgasmic sensibilities, we feel and those feelings is what makes us individual.
1:35:33
So, I pour this into my art and >> that's obvious by the way.
1:35:41
>> And I don't know and humor is part of it, but I don't know if whoever is looking at it is picking up what I'm putting down, >> so to speak.
1:35:48
I mean, because putting >> I guess putting down, you know, >> Paula could say that. >> Yes, he could.
1:35:56
>> Are you picking up what I'm putting down? No, I'm drunk.
1:36:00
>> Uh, I'll never I'll never know. >> And I'm really drunk. I'll never know.
1:36:04
But the reason why I make art is for it's not a cathartic experience for me. I don't need to do it.
1:36:08
I do it because I feel like I am entertaining others to find themselves >> in that work. >> I love that.
1:36:19
>> I think like literally if you if if if that is like one of your purposes in life, right? You're a teacher.
1:36:28
you you're you're not going to if you try to fashion I'm very serious etc etc.
1:36:36
There's a great quote about Kurt Vonagget that John Irving said about him and it was literally they were talking about some serious piece of writing and Vonagget goes I I don't get those guys.
1:36:51
I want people to actually learn something from what I write and that means I have to entertain them.
1:36:58
at I love that line because it's so true. >> Yeah.
1:37:01
Like >> and it's not always about fun. It's about insight. Exactly. >> It's about informing.
1:37:04
It's about sharing the, you know, I don't like serious art. >> Bingo.
1:37:11
>> Because I'm not that serious. >> Right.
1:37:13
>> And I have a role in life. I know my role. I'm a father first. >> I'm an artist second. >> I'm a teacher.
1:37:19
All within that I am who I am. >> Yeah.
1:37:26
So my art affects my father.
1:37:29
>> Well, you're back to balance.
1:37:31
>> Yes, it's all exactly again. Thank you.
1:37:38
Like >> these guys are too young.
1:37:39
They probably Thanks for coming.
1:37:41
>> Have you guys ever seen >> Jimmy Fallon does it now?
1:37:42
You know, the Tonight Show. I don't know.
1:37:45
>> Do you guys know that?
1:37:45
Do you do you >> besides those shows?
1:37:47
Those What do they You know, like there >> Oh, they're horrible.
1:37:51
>> Yeah, they're just not There's nothing.
1:37:53
But we're talking about old Jewish humor.
1:37:54
So of course naturally Johnny Carson was the one who who really introduc introduced them to the world.
1:37:57
I mean it was the Seinfeld's first appearance with Johnny.
1:38:00
But I mean >> you got I mean they can't they must watch Seinfeld the curve your enthusiasm or the new show called The Bookie by Sebastian Mano. I don't know that.
1:38:13
>> Holy [ __ ] is that funny.
1:38:14
>> Should I check it out? It's called the bookie. >> Yeah. >> Oh cool. >> Yeah it's funny. He's a funny guy.
1:38:17
Talks about the doorbell ring. You ever see that? No. You don't like him?
1:38:20
Nothing's funny to you guys.
1:38:22
Who's your favorite comedian?
1:38:25
You have to have comedian.
1:38:26
Who's your favorite comedian? >> That's my point.
1:38:29
There's >> there's a lot of there's a lot of I mean there's a lot of >> This is what is funny.
1:38:36
>> So, do you watch Tires? >> Tires. >> Okay. >> There you go. >> Right. No, it is horrible.
1:38:40
But why not make fun of [ __ ] that's horrible? >> Exactly.
1:38:45
>> That's how you get through life. >> Exactly.
1:38:46
And you know people, >> you don't watch them. You don't like them.
1:38:50
>> You don't like them at sitting there thinking, "Fuck all this."
1:38:52
>> This This is what we call >> He's thinking of lunch.
1:38:54
He's thinking of takeout. He's like Door Dash.
1:38:57
>> Yeah, >> he's already ordered it for sure.
1:39:00
>> I used Instacart for the first time in my life last year. >> I've never used it.
1:39:04
>> Now they keep They just keep bringing [ __ ] to me. >> Do they? >> Yeah. >> That's very cool.
1:39:07
>> They leave it at different doors.
1:39:07
I don't know where the hell this stuff is.
1:39:10
>> What we're doing here, by the way, is called Breaking the Fourth Wall. >> Come on. You love movies. >> What? The Matrix? >> Breaking No.
1:39:19
Breaking Well, they break the fourth wall in the Matrix. Yeah.
1:39:21
But breaking the fourth wall is admitting that you have non-participants in your little production that are offsecene, right?
1:39:32
And so like you >> which is why I asked what do I look >> uh did you see the Wolf of Wall Street with DiCaprio?
1:39:38
>> I did see The Wolf of Wall Street.
1:39:40
>> He breaks the fourth wall all the time in that movie.
1:39:42
>> So American Psycho is the fourth wall.
1:39:44
>> Oh well, he breaks the fourth wall.
1:39:46
>> I just saw that for the first time three months ago. >> Really? What did you think?
1:39:49
>> Well, someone has suggested to me because I apparently I don't see a lot of movies that I should be seeing. >> Yeah. >> And I loved it. >> Yeah. Amazing movie.
1:39:56
>> And I have I mean I have a take on it.
1:39:57
Like I have a take on Fight Club that it's clearly, you know, the existence of Lucifer within our own minds.
1:40:01
There's no doubt in my mind.
1:40:04
Now granted, someone might say, "What are you talking about?"
1:40:07
You know, >> well uh Jung would say it's the shadow, right?
1:40:11
We all have a shadow and if you don't integrate your shadow into your personality, you will What's Jung's really great quote about that?
1:40:19
If you fail to integrate your shadow into your personality, you will look on what happens in your life and call it fate.
1:40:29
>> Okay, that sums that that's what this is what every juvenile delinquent and politician would say.
1:40:33
Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer. >> Exactly. Right.
1:40:38
Because but in the truest sense, your shadow is not your enemy.
1:40:43
It's who you know your version of you, right?
1:40:46
Like you want to be seen a certain way.
1:40:49
You want others to perceive you a certain way.
1:40:50
Sometimes your shadow doesn't give a [ __ ] about that.
1:40:53
And you if you realize that and integrate your shadow into your personality, that's when life gets fun.
1:41:02
And you seem like somebody to me who's integrated his shadow pretty well. I have no comment.
1:41:11
>> I mean, let's just let's just make it entertaining for the last minute.
1:41:14
>> Okay, let's do what is your if you could let's do more than a minute.
1:41:18
>> If you could do if you could get Instacart right now to come here with your favorite meal, put right down in front of you.
1:41:24
>> Throw a big white tablecloth across here, your finest silver, glass of bourbon.
1:41:28
I don't know if you drink, >> but you're Irish. You must drink.
1:41:30
So what what what would what meal would you want in front of you >> right now? >> Yes.
1:41:39
>> Well, it's really I'm not terribly hungry.
1:41:40
So >> if you were Oh my god. Everybody loves some.
1:41:49
>> What if you were starving?
1:41:49
What would you want to eat >> if I was starving?
1:41:52
I love the way that Boston accent comes out. Starving.
1:42:01
just kind of >> big storm is coming. >> Come on, man.
1:42:04
What would you want to eat?
1:42:07
>> I'm I honestly like if I if I was going to get executed, I'd probably go for the all American >> executed.
1:42:12
I'm not talking about dying. >> What? This guy, man. You work for this guy.
1:42:18
What do you pay these guys? >> I do.
1:42:20
I think you do you think they're sitting there?
1:42:23
>> They studied communications in school.
1:42:25
Did you wind up doing this cuz you couldn't play baseball?
1:42:26
I don't know what happened.
1:42:28
>> Well, in both cases, you're very insightful. >> Pride out.
1:42:34
Neither one of them could make it to the show.
1:42:37
>> So, they do this instead. >> Oh, yeah. Front row seats. Any show you want. >> There you go.
1:42:40
Now, now they're going to be really >> Well, they're going to cost. >> Yeah.
1:42:45
>> I mean, they cost money.
1:42:45
I mean, but my daughter shows >> long and illustrious career.
1:42:50
>> I had opened up by saying cuz I noticed I spit on you.
1:42:51
I noticed that it's the splash zone.
1:42:53
I was told by my daughter that that's a splash zone.
1:42:55
We saw Jonathan Gra and Merrily we roll along and when he sings he projects tons of saliva like like you're wet. Yeah. >> In his spit. How do you know?
1:43:05
>> I've been to a lot of performances and been in pretty good seats. >> Yeah. Front yard center baby. >> Where that happens?
1:43:11
>> Only a Jew would say that over and over again. Okay. You're really hungry. You're not going to die.
1:43:15
Someone says, "Jim, this is for you. I love you.
1:43:19
Here's your favorite meal."
1:43:19
My I don't have a favorite meal. >> All right. Give me 10.
1:43:23
Like just pick one of your favorites. Okay. Ask me the question. I am [ __ ] this up. Ask me a question. Ask me the question.
1:43:32
>> I think we should just leave all of it.
1:43:33
Don't >> ask me a question. Yeah, leave it all. Leave it all. >> Okay, >> get it. Kissingers.
1:43:39
>> Mark, what is your favorite meal? >> Mosquite smoked duck. >> Oh, great choice.
1:43:45
>> From a restaurant in Houston, Texas, right off Kirby called Good Company.
1:43:50
Although they do not make the mosquet smoke duck anymore.
1:43:52
However, if you bring a duck, a freshwater duck to them. >> Yeah.
1:43:57
>> They will smoke it for you for a charge.
1:43:59
I'm not I would love to fly to Texas and just bring him a get a duck >> and then let him smoke it. >> Why?
1:44:05
Why did >> But it's not happening.
1:44:06
And with homemade jalapeno bread. >> Nice.
1:44:09
Why would Why did they stop if that was the best?
1:44:11
Why did they stop doing the mosquite? >> I don't know.
1:44:15
Maybe I was the only one eating the duck. I would drive down.
1:44:16
I went to school at UT Austin.
1:44:18
And I would drive down from Austin to Houston just to eat the damn duck.
1:44:22
>> Very >> just to eat the duck. >> Think who does that?
1:44:26
>> You apparently did it.
1:44:26
That's chapter 14 of my memoir. >> There you go. >> Who does that?
1:44:31
It's called >> I think I think more people than you might imagine.
1:44:36
>> Well, they stopped making the duck. >> Yeah.
1:44:38
So, >> it wasn't selling as much as the ribs or the brisk the brisket was the number one seller >> in that particular situation. Yes. I love ribs. I love uh barbecue. I love all that.
1:44:49
>> Yeah, I I have smokers in my backyard. >> Really? >> Yeah. So, I smoke. >> Okay. >> Yeah.
1:44:54
Not a lot, but when I find like I smoke for Thanksgiving, I smoke two turkeys >> and >> 11 pound turkeys. They're young turkeys.
1:45:00
>> And reaction of the of your guests? >> Uh, 8 to 10. Like, cuz I asked them. >> Of course you did. >> What do you rate it? One to 10. Eight to 10. >> Perfect. Perfect scores. All right, Mark.
1:45:16
The last question we ask in this podcast is very simple.
1:45:19
We're gonna wave a wand and we're going to make you the emperor of the world for just one day. You cannot kill anyone. Just hang on. You can't kill anyone.
1:45:30
You can't put anyone in a re-education camp.
1:45:32
But what you can do is we're going to hand you a magic microphone right here.
1:45:37
And you can say two things into that magic microphone that every single human being on the planet is going to wake up the next day, whenever their next day is, and they're going to think to themselves, I've just had two of the greatest ideas, and unlike all the other times, I'm actually going to act on both of these ideas today.
1:46:01
You get to incept those two ideas.
1:46:05
What What are you going to incept in the world's population?
1:46:07
to incept in the world's population? I would love to just go on about this how emperors are kind of uh you know they're they don't just become an emperor overnight but if you're giving me that title >> I am you could call yourself a magician
1:46:20
>> I would you know am I am I am I being asked to do something magical or am I being asked to do something like to advise people on something I would love to let people know one thing that's really important which I think a lot of people tend to forget it's really just fatherly advice you might today since I'm a dad. You can't love others until you love
1:46:41
You can't love others until you love yourself. >> I love that.
1:46:45
>> So, I would express this to people and I would make everybody have this in front of them in any way that they need it.
1:46:52
But but this is something that people just don't seem to grasp. >> No, I know.
1:46:56
>> And I don't it really troubles me because >> it may be hard to love oneself, but this is something you should strive for because you cannot love another. >> Completely agree.
1:47:06
>> Unless you love yourself. >> That's a great one. >> Okay.
1:47:07
So you've you you're going to get everybody in the world thinking I got to love myself before I can love others because I really want to love others. Good one.
1:47:17
>> And on a magical note, if I could maybe do something that I really think is a problem in the world because I never I didn't really talk about it earlier, but it's world hunger >> has always troubled me.
1:47:26
>> I don't understand like it doesn't I don't understand why people are starving. >> Yeah.
1:47:32
and you know not getting forclemp I I've been thinking about this for a long time be just before my daughter was born I thought about it incredibly like it was always on my mind world hunger because I was never hungry never went hungry but and I so if I were emperor with a magical sense I don't know what the
1:47:52
magical microphone can do but you did say magical so I'm assuming that this is like I can go in the direction of Wizard of Oz talking about bringing something full circle >> yes you can >> I would make us all work together so that we could provide food for the world so that it would be there when it needs to be there. >> And that's totally magical because
1:48:12
>> And that's totally magical because nobody it's not going to happen.
1:48:17
But I but that's something I would strive for as an emperor. >> I love both of those.
1:48:21
So you're a very good emperor.
1:48:25
You should hear some of the other ideas that >> Well, Marcus Marcus Aurelius. I don't know. >> Yeah. You a fan?
1:48:29
Marcus Denko was our Ukrainian name.
1:48:33
Am I a fan of of meditations? >> No. Yeah. Meditations.
1:48:38
>> So, I did read meditations and I read Sutonius all 12.
1:48:40
If you know, you must know. Of course you know. >> I do.
1:48:44
>> Cuz I lived in Italy to learn painting techniques.
1:48:47
>> But since you said this was the end of the podcast, I'm not going to tell you anymore till we do part two, [ __ ] >> Well, we will do part two because we might be publishing your book.
1:49:02
I didn't come here for that, you know, like I had no idea who you were. >> I know.
1:49:06
>> I mean, you're a legend.
1:49:06
I even said that when I walked in, but >> I actually [ __ ] love you.
1:49:10
>> Just a way of saying something nice to you.
1:49:11
I didn't >> know who who I was. >> What?
1:49:13
I had no idea what's going on.
1:49:13
I don't know what's going on. >> That is great.
1:49:16
>> I fly to Miami tomorrow morning. First flight. First flight out.
1:49:19
>> So many different levels.
1:49:19
I love that you just were like, you like Ariel.
1:49:23
You're like, >> "Okay, I'll do that." I love that.
1:49:24
I love that you didn't look me up. I did not. I Is that bad? >> I [ __ ] knew.
1:49:31
>> I did not look you up. >> No, no, no. It's fabulous.
1:49:32
I love >> I just asked for reminders so that I wouldn't forget when it was >> and you got them. >> And I got them. All I asked for.
1:49:38
That was my only concern because I knew that if you going to >> I will share with you. >> Yes.
1:49:45
>> That she's the reason she's so good at that >> is you and I are very alike >> and she's worked for me for 22 years and she has to do that with me all the time. >> Oh. I rely on her so much.
1:49:57
Literally when I was still I sold my company in 21. Okay.
1:50:04
And started a new company. >> But >> what' you own? Caribbean Cruise. >> Uh, no.
1:50:11
>> Well, cuz they were lot a lot of people were selling them back in the day cuz they, you know, the toilets blocked up and you got a nice toilet in there. I don't know.
1:50:17
I don't know what your deal is.
1:50:17
You ever see that thing on Netflix called like the poop cruise?
1:50:20
>> Uh, I did and I'm I think cruises are horrible. See that?
1:50:25
To me, that was a funny show. >> It was. It was very funny.
1:50:29
>> I would never go on a boat.
1:50:29
I could never do That's why they call it [ __ ] carnival. >> Exactly.
1:50:33
>> It's like better than I [ __ ] got that just like freaks coming out of the woodwork. Todd Browning. Todd Browning. >> Yeah.
1:50:40
And you are locked on a boat with them in the middle of the water.
1:50:47
>> All it takes is one [ __ ] person to say, "You know what? I got [ __ ] tetanus." Oh, really?
1:50:50
What's your bunk, [ __ ] You know, like I'm not even vaccinated.
1:50:58
You ever have hepatitis B? Sure. >> You do now. >> Just takes one. >> Yeah.
1:51:03
I'd be sleeping up at the top of the slide over the pool. >> There's no way. No way. No cruises.
1:51:07
It's got to be >> They're horrible.
1:51:10
>> And yet they're so popular.
1:51:10
That's why I said, "Did you sell your company, Caribbean Cruise?"
1:51:13
Because to me, that would be one company I would sell in a heartbeat if I >> I would I if I ever owned it.
1:51:16
What company did you have in a heartbeat?
1:51:18
I had an asset management company.
1:51:20
Oh, so you were you're like a big deal.
1:51:24
>> Well, >> like you're like >> only in my own mind.
1:51:25
I'm only a legend in my own mind.
1:51:27
>> That's why you buy an art.
1:51:30
>> Uh, I'm a legend in my own mind.
1:51:30
That's a good name for a memoir. I'm nobody.
1:51:37
>> I'm a legend in my >> That's actually a good movie. Nobody. You see that one? >> Nobody's great. >> Am I wrong? >> Nobody too sucks. Have you seen >> Oh, no.
1:51:44
Don't ruin it for What is that spoiler alert [ __ ] You're like that.
1:51:48
You're that guy who does spoiler alerts.
1:51:50
That's like someone saying, "Don't order the shrimp scampy." I It's like, "What? I wanted it all day.
1:51:54
I came here for the I actually never had shrimp scampy, but I'm using >> that was done in a very calculated fashion to piss you off."
1:52:02
>> But I love Better Call Saul.
1:52:02
You know, how do you not >> You got to love. >> Okay.
1:52:05
So, let's just end it on this if I may.
1:52:07
Not that I'm taking over the podcast because I wouldn't know how to do it.
1:52:11
>> But, >> you know, cuz the conversation today is not what would you want as your favorite meal, right?
1:52:16
Or your death sentence meal or your last meal. What is it called? Your last meal. >> Yeah.
1:52:20
But everybody is like, "Give me three shows that you want me to recommend because you wrote down Billy Bookie." I did.
1:52:26
>> And this remind Okay, so there are three like what three shows would you suggest or recommend that I watch and I'll give you my three.
1:52:32
I think that you've not even heard of my three.
1:52:36
>> Tell me >> because we all agree we love Breaking Bad and Sopranos. Totally. >> I mean, look at me.
1:52:40
How do you not even [ __ ] tell me you never saw the Sopranos or Ray Dunovan or Ozark's great >> or Ozark or There's so many great. Okay.
1:52:49
So, all those aside, The End of the [ __ ] World is my number one. >> It's a good show. >> It is a good show.
1:52:56
>> Now the [ __ ] has seen it. Now he's talking. >> Yeah. >> It's unreal. >> Yeah. >> Okay. You never heard of it? >> I have. I watched it. >> Oh, what the guy? You're so >> Yeah. Give me another one.
1:53:08
You boring piece of [ __ ] I thought you were writing that down like a doctor. You're like, exactly. He's yawning.
1:53:13
Well, how come you're not on camera?
1:53:15
Or are you Are you on camera? Of course. It's right there. >> This is a camera. >> Yeah.
1:53:20
>> I mean, I know it's a camera, but I thought it was like taking >> No, no, no. It's a camera. >> It's moving pictures.
1:53:24
>> It's doing the moving picture. >> Moving pictures. >> Uh, reservation dogs. >> Uh, reservoir dogs.
1:53:32
You mean >> what did I say?
1:53:33
You said reservation dogs.
1:53:36
>> Res I don't know that one. >> Oh my god. Sterling. Sterling Hardo.
1:53:39
It's about >> uh a group of teenage Indians who live in a reservation in Oklahoma.
1:53:46
It it is one of the best things I have ever seen in my life. Reservation dogs.
1:53:53
Naturally, it's based on Quentyn Tarantino's reservation dogs.
1:53:55
Reserv reservoir dogs >> cuz Sterling Hardjo is a big fan of Quenton Tarantino.
1:54:00
But I lived on Pine Ridge Indian Reservation back in the day in South Dakota.
1:54:04
Wy South Dakota in a tepee. I have so many stories. And then Fargo series. >> I love Fargo.
1:54:10
>> The last one with John Ham. >> Yeah. >> Who plays the devil. I mean it's like what? >> It's amazing. wood. >> It's amazing. >> This is acting. Yeah.
1:54:18
>> And the first season is is >> first season is absolutely >> absolutely brilliant.
1:54:23
>> Where I saw that dude for the first time and now he's like super famous. I don't know. He's like this weird.
1:54:25
Yeah, he's a weird actor.
1:54:28
>> Uh great, but also a great movie.
1:54:30
>> Okay, forget the movie.
1:54:30
Talking TV shows, but the movie is f I agree.
1:54:32
And No Country for Old Men. Look, they're all good. The Cobmack McCarthy. See, we're gonna go off. >> Yeah. No, I know.
1:54:39
I agree >> because this is what people talk about nowadays.
1:54:45
I'm not going to go there.
1:54:45
I mentioned the Wizard of Oz. You know, Dr.
1:54:46
Strange Love, I mean, >> Dr.
1:54:50
Strange Love is brilliant.
1:54:52
>> If you haven't seen it, I can't sit.
1:54:54
>> I can guarantee you both of those guys have not seen. >> I get it. It's okay.
1:54:56
It's okay because they have seen other movies that we've not seen. >> That's right.
1:55:00
Well, I might have seen them. I'm a movie buff. >> Uncut Gems. >> Oh, great movie. >> Adam Bruins fan. Got to watch it. >> Yeah. >> Happy Gilmore. Happy happy Gilmore. >> It's fun. >> It's okay. >> That's it. We're done here.
1:55:22
>> I'm not a fan fan, but you know, he's a fun guy. He did Uncut Gems.
1:55:24
He's got a new movie coming out.
1:55:26
He did the thing about his daughter as Bob Mitzvah.
1:55:29
>> Like that shows >> he lives in Montlair.
1:55:30
He bought a house in >> Montlair. That shows his chops.
1:55:32
He's very very good, >> right?
1:55:35
And you know, we talked about uh Fight Club.
1:55:38
I mean, know there's like >> Fight Club is an amazing seen Fight Club >> movie. >> Of course they have. See, they're guys.
1:55:44
>> It is an amazing >> I don't think they should see Doctor Strange Love. I I'm okay with that. >> Are you? >> Yeah.
1:55:49
Citizen Kane enough already. Like, it's okay. It's okay. It's okay.
1:55:52
Like, there's newer classics. >> I agree.
1:55:58
>> No Country for Old Men. >> I I I'm a No Country. >> Okay. Look, they saw it. >> Amazing.
1:56:03
>> Now they deserve races. >> Yeah. You think so?
1:56:05
>> But I'm okay with like like black and white East of Eden to me. >> Great movie.
1:56:10
James Dean, his second movie. His first movie. His first movie.
1:56:14
No, Rebel Blood of Cause's first movie.
1:56:16
East of Eden and then Giant. >> Amazing. Okay.
1:56:19
Well, they might have seen There's No Blood for Men. What's it called? >> There Will Be Blood. >> There Will Be Blood. Perfect. >> Daniel D Lewis.
1:56:26
They've seen Saving Private Ryan. >> Yep. For sure.
1:56:29
>> If you haven't, then I'm out of here. >> Yeah. No, they have. >> Okay. Forest Gum.
1:56:33
>> Have they He's a new classics. >> Have they seen Fury? Have you seen Fury? >> Oh my god.
1:56:36
I can't believe you're bringing up Fury.
1:56:37
So, I really appreciate Brad Pitt. Yeah, me too. >> Glorious bastards.
1:56:41
Please say, "Okay, [ __ ] they're done.
1:56:43
If they saw that, they're done.
1:56:45
They don't have to see anything."
1:56:46
>> Here's what I love about Brad Pitt is the guy. >> I loved Fury.
1:56:50
>> Yeah, Fury was amazing.
1:56:51
>> My son just saw it and he talks to me about it all.
1:56:54
He goes, "Daddy, this is incredible.
1:56:55
The scene under the tank when the Yeah, >> it's amazing. It's an amazing movie."
1:57:01
And what I love about Brad Pitt is he is that very rare actor who is both a legitimate movie star but also a really [ __ ] good actor.
1:57:12
And I love that he takes the types of projects that he takes because >> I'm with you on this with you on this.
1:57:20
>> It's just like are you kidding me?
1:57:20
This guy is a bonafide big movie star and yet he makes Fury and yet he does it for Tarantino in the Hollywood movie.
1:57:33
Tarantino I love I love >> my god that movie >> amazing >> once upon a time in LA.
1:57:39
>> In in well >> in Hollywood >> in Hollywood once upon a time in LA is different >> with Julia Butter as the little girl talking to >> amazing >> DiCaprio who's also brilliant.
1:57:47
>> They're both brilliant. >> Okay.
1:57:48
So we were on the same page. >> Oh totally.
1:57:50
I mean, what's that movie? It's crazy. Um, Dallas Buyers Club. >> Oh, amazing.
1:57:56
>> Cuz you know, >> Luke McConn, >> you know, he's at All Texas. >> Yeah.
1:58:00
>> And I didn't really watch any movies he he was in until I saw that show about True Detective.
1:58:03
I would suggest that True Detective >> first season only.
1:58:07
>> You just took my my recommendation.
1:58:07
I was going to recommend the first season of True Detective. >> There you go. We're done here. Are we are done?